Chicago: Any consequences of closing Meigs?

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Neil, has either of the airports received FAA grant money in the past?


Neil Gould wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Two airports in our area are under "attack" by groups that would
> rather not have air traffic in their new developments built beside
> the existing airport or the airport taking up space in the downtown
> lakefront area. While I can see many reasons why this is short-term
> thinking that would not serve the best interests of the region, I
> realize that as a GA pilot, I am biased. A similar situation existed
> in Chicago at the time Meigs was closed that might shed some light on
> the reality of our situation.
>
> Where did the GA planes relocate, and has this had any impact on the
> owners' access to or use of their planes?
>
> Has there been any impact on the business travel to Chicago?
>
> Is all of the traffic handled adequately by O'Hare and Midway?
>
> Is there any record of positive or negative economic impact?
>
>
> Neil

[Jay Honeck]

> Is there any record of positive or negative economic impact?

That's going to be tough to answer, Neil. While you can certainly
quantify the federal fines Chicago has absorbed due to Daley's
Midnight Raid, and you can add up the lost income from fuel sales and
landing fees, it's going to be nearly impossible to accurately gauge
the financial cost of NOT having an airport there, as opposed to the
possible income from having a new park in its place.

It's like trying to quantify marketing efforts in business, by asking
"How many extra suites did we rent because of 'x' radio commercial?"
The answer will be subjective and opinionated hearsay.

If you surveyed folks in downtown Chicago, you might get all sorts of
folks saying "We came to the Chicago lakefront today because it's so
nice not to hear those noisy jets every five minutes" -- but you WON'T
hear from the folks who used to come to the lakefront specifically
because they liked to watch the planes. They're simply not there to
ask.

And you certainly won't get any answers from the folks who aren't
visiting Chicago because there is no long any easy airport access.

As a data point of one, however, I know for certain that we have *not*
spent thousands of dollars in Chicago since Meigs closed, specifically
because there is no longer any easy access to downtown.

You have to ask if closing Meigs ADDED anyone who, conversely, spent
those thousands, or more? I've heard they have concerts out on that
peninsula now -- can anyone verify that?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Neil Gould]

Hi all,

Two airports in our area are under "attack" by groups that would rather
not have air traffic in their new developments built beside the existing
airport or the airport taking up space in the downtown lakefront area.
While I can see many reasons why this is short-term thinking that would
not serve the best interests of the region, I realize that as a GA pilot,
I am biased. A similar situation existed in Chicago at the time Meigs was
closed that might shed some light on the reality of our situation.

Where did the GA planes relocate, and has this had any impact on the
owners' access to or use of their planes?

Has there been any impact on the business travel to Chicago?

Is all of the traffic handled adequately by O'Hare and Midway?

Is there any record of positive or negative economic impact?


Neil

[Paul kgyy]

I live in a condo that overlooks the former Meigs field (broke my
heart when they closed it).

The city has installed a perimeter bike path around the field so I
rode around it last fall. The field is mostly grass and weeds, with a
few small trees. There is a concert stage, but it's a temporary
setup. In the case of Meigs, I would make the following comments.

1. Noise - aircraft noise was no worse than the cigarette boats
cruising down the lakefront at 50mph, or the Motorcycles on Lake Shore
Drive. And aircraft noise is quickly gone and is primarily noticeable
on takeoff. Music from downtown festivals in Grant Park is far more
intrusive, and sometimes runs for hours on end.
2. Local aircraft - Meigs wasn't a good place to tie down on a long
term basis. Tiedown charges were around $300 per month, and the
proximity to the lake created messes from seagulls. I kept the Arrow
at Midway, which was much less expensive (at least initially). I
don't know where the other aircraft went - I assume Midway, Palwaukee,
DuPage, Lansing, Gary, -- lots of reliever airports. No t-hangars
were available, nor were there any repair facilities that I know of.
It was a very limited airport. No ILS despite frequent fog from the
lake.
3. Alternate use - none, really. A couple of rock concerts used the
field because it was a place they could make all the noise they wanted
without generating complaints (ironic, to me) and it was empty space.
4. I'd guess most of the jet traffic went to Midway, which has become
noticeably busier, but the demise of ATA has helped Midway keep up.

My final conclusion is that it was an underdeveloped airport that
should (and could) have been enhanced to make it something special,
but the opposite path was taken.

Chicago, despite being a good place to live and work, is not a city of
vision, but few cities are.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Neil Gould" > wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Two airports in our area are under "attack" by groups that would rather
> not have air traffic in their new developments built beside the existing
> airport or the airport taking up space in the downtown lakefront area.
> While I can see many reasons why this is short-term thinking that would
> not serve the best interests of the region, I realize that as a GA pilot,
> I am biased. A similar situation existed in Chicago at the time Meigs was
> closed that might shed some light on the reality of our situation.
>
> Where did the GA planes relocate, and has this had any impact on the
> owners' access to or use of their planes?
>
> Has there been any impact on the business travel to Chicago?
>
> Is all of the traffic handled adequately by O'Hare and Midway?
>
> Is there any record of positive or negative economic impact?
>
>
> Neil

Where do you live?

When I was in California, the Division of Aeronautics conducted (at the
prodding of CA Pilots' Assn.) economic surveys of GA airports to
determine economic benefits. At that time (1980s) the average benefit
was around $100K per based airplane! Some airports (Palm Springs, for
instance) were much higher, while some very small airports were less.

The opponents (mostly developers and eco-Nazis) did not like to hear
this news, so they lobbied against further studies.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Neil Gould wrote:
> Recently, Gig 601XL Builder <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> posted:
>
>> Neil, has either of the airports received FAA grant money in the
>> past?
>>
> I'm sure that both airports receive FAA grant money. As the
> destruction of Meigs has shown, that makes little difference to the
> outcome. I'm just wondering if there have been any other
> repercussions from that action.
>
> Neil

While it might not have stopped Chicago, some cities and more particularly
the politicians in the cities might be a little less apt to go head to head
with the federal government.

If you are looking for ways to save an airport don't **** away any possible
allies, especially those with checkbooks and guns.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Gig 601XL Builder <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> posted:

> Neil, has either of the airports received FAA grant money in the past?
>
I'm sure that both airports receive FAA grant money. As the destruction of
Meigs has shown, that makes little difference to the outcome. I'm just
wondering if there have been any other repercussions from that action.

Neil

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Paul kgyy > posted:

> I live in a condo that overlooks the former Meigs field (broke my
> heart when they closed it).
>
> The city has installed a perimeter bike path around the field so I
> rode around it last fall. The field is mostly grass and weeds, with a
> few small trees. There is a concert stage, but it's a temporary
> setup. In the case of Meigs, I would make the following comments.
>
> 1. Noise - aircraft noise was no worse than the cigarette boats
> cruising down the lakefront at 50mph, or the Motorcycles on Lake Shore
> Drive. And aircraft noise is quickly gone and is primarily noticeable
> on takeoff. Music from downtown festivals in Grant Park is far more
> intrusive, and sometimes runs for hours on end.
> 2. Local aircraft - Meigs wasn't a good place to tie down on a long
> term basis. Tiedown charges were around $300 per month, and the
> proximity to the lake created messes from seagulls. I kept the Arrow
> at Midway, which was much less expensive (at least initially). I
> don't know where the other aircraft went - I assume Midway, Palwaukee,
> DuPage, Lansing, Gary, -- lots of reliever airports. No t-hangars
> were available, nor were there any repair facilities that I know of.
> It was a very limited airport. No ILS despite frequent fog from the
> lake.
> 3. Alternate use - none, really. A couple of rock concerts used the
> field because it was a place they could make all the noise they wanted
> without generating complaints (ironic, to me) and it was empty space.
> 4. I'd guess most of the jet traffic went to Midway, which has become
> noticeably busier, but the demise of ATA has helped Midway keep up.
>
> My final conclusion is that it was an underdeveloped airport that
> should (and could) have been enhanced to make it something special,
> but the opposite path was taken.
>
> Chicago, despite being a good place to live and work, is not a city of
> vision, but few cities are.
>
Thanks for your response, Paul. From the above, it would seem that the GA
population didn't suffer much. I had presumed that Meigs would have been
more similar to one of our airports (Burke Lakefront in Cleveland, OH).
However, Burke does have an ILS, and quite a few GA planes & helicopters
are based there year-round. I would say that, today, the airport is
under-utilized and may seem vulnerable because of that. However, its loss
would be felt by the GA community since the remaining options can't easily
absorb the resident aircraft.

Neil

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Jay Honeck > posted:

>> Is there any record of positive or negative economic impact?
>
> That's going to be tough to answer, Neil. While you can certainly
> quantify the federal fines Chicago has absorbed due to Daley's
> Midnight Raid, and you can add up the lost income from fuel sales and
> landing fees, it's going to be nearly impossible to accurately gauge
> the financial cost of NOT having an airport there, as opposed to the
> possible income from having a new park in its place.
>
I know that it's a difficult matter to evaluate, which is why I tried to
focus on some specific issues.

> You have to ask if closing Meigs ADDED anyone who, conversely, spent
> those thousands, or more? I've heard they have concerts out on that
> peninsula now -- can anyone verify that?
>
That's a good question. OTOH, I don't know how many "thousands of
thousands" would be required before it became an issue worthy of note.

Neil

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Orval Fairbairn > posted:

> "Neil Gould" > wrote:
> [...]
>> Is there any record of positive or negative economic impact?
>>
>
> Where do you live?
>
Cleveland, OH.

> When I was in California, the Division of Aeronautics conducted (at
> the prodding of CA Pilots' Assn.) economic surveys of GA airports to
> determine economic benefits. At that time (1980s) the average benefit
> was around $100K per based airplane! Some airports (Palm Springs, for
> instance) were much higher, while some very small airports were less.
>
That's very interesting. I'd like to know the basis for those figures. Do
you know whether this study is available anywhere?

> The opponents (mostly developers and eco-Nazis) did not like to hear
> this news, so they lobbied against further studies.
>
Not surprisingly...

Neil

[Larry Dighera]

On 5 Mar 2007 07:58:03 -0800, "Paul kgyy" > wrote
in . com>:

> Music from downtown festivals in Grant Park is far more
>intrusive, and sometimes runs for hours on end.

Typically, what time of day/night does this noise exist?

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:50:13 -0600, "Neil Gould"
> wrote in
>:

>
>> When I was in California, the Division of Aeronautics conducted (at
>> the prodding of CA Pilots' Assn.) economic surveys of GA airports to
>> determine economic benefits. At that time (1980s) the average benefit
>> was around $100K per based airplane! Some airports (Palm Springs, for
>> instance) were much higher, while some very small airports were less.
>>
>That's very interesting. I'd like to know the basis for those figures. Do
>you know whether this study is available anywhere?

Perhaps an inquiry here might be fruitful:
http://www.calpilots.org/html/
http://www.calpilots.org/html/contact.php
CPA, P.O. Box 6868, San Carlos, CA 94070-6868
Phone: 1-800-319-5286

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Larry Dighera > posted:

> On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 13:50:13 -0600, "Neil Gould"
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>>
>>> When I was in California, the Division of Aeronautics conducted (at
>>> the prodding of CA Pilots' Assn.) economic surveys of GA airports to
>>> determine economic benefits. At that time (1980s) the average
>>> benefit was around $100K per based airplane! Some airports (Palm
>>> Springs, for instance) were much higher, while some very small
>>> airports were less.
>>>
>> That's very interesting. I'd like to know the basis for those
>> figures. Do you know whether this study is available anywhere?
>
> Perhaps an inquiry here might be fruitful:
> http://www.calpilots.org/html/
> http://www.calpilots.org/html/contact.php
> CPA, P.O. Box 6868, San Carlos, CA 94070-6868
> Phone: 1-800-319-5286
>
Thanks, Larry.

Neil

[Peter Dohm]

> Two airports in our area are under "attack" by groups that would rather
> not have air traffic in their new developments built beside the existing
> airport or the airport taking up space in the downtown lakefront area.
> While I can see many reasons why this is short-term thinking that would
> not serve the best interests of the region, I realize that as a GA pilot,
> I am biased. A similar situation existed in Chicago at the time Meigs was
> closed that might shed some light on the reality of our situation.
>
> Where did the GA planes relocate, and has this had any impact on the
> owners' access to or use of their planes?
>
> Has there been any impact on the business travel to Chicago?
>
> Is all of the traffic handled adequately by O'Hare and Midway?
>
> Is there any record of positive or negative economic impact?
>
>
Well, it is possible that some economic impact could be arranged...

I just heard that Chicago is one to the cities campaigning for the 2016
Olympic Games; and although I have not previously taken much interest in the
Olympics, I am willing to make an affordable contribution to the U.S.O.C.
provided that Chicago is *NOT* selected!

How about the rest of you?

Peer

[Paul kgyy]

On Mar 5, 5:10 pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On 5 Mar 2007 07:58:03 -0800, "Paul kgyy" > wrote
> in . com>:
>
> > Music from downtown festivals in Grant Park is far more
> >intrusive, and sometimes runs for hours on end.
>
> Typically, what time of day/night does this noise exist?

Festival noise usually starts about noon, runs to 10PM.

Motorcycles run all night. Somebody got arrested a couple of years
ago doing 160 on a Kawasaki.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Peter Dohm"> wrote

> I just heard that Chicago is one to the cities campaigning for the 2016
> Olympic Games; and although I have not previously taken much interest in
> the
> Olympics, I am willing to make an affordable contribution to the U.S.O.C.
> provided that Chicago is *NOT* selected!
>
> How about the rest of you?

Although I applaud your patriotism, and am in agreement of your dislike for
Chicago's mayor, what do you think that will do, (even if a lot of people go
along with your line of thought and make a contingent contribution) with the
best possible outcome?

Meigs will never be rebuilt, even when the current political machine is long
gone, don't you think? That is the way I see it, anyway.
--
Jim in NC

[Peter Dohm]

> > I just heard that Chicago is one to the cities campaigning for the 2016
> > Olympic Games; and although I have not previously taken much interest in
> > the
> > Olympics, I am willing to make an affordable contribution to the
U.S.O.C.
> > provided that Chicago is *NOT* selected!
> >
> > How about the rest of you?
>
> Although I applaud your patriotism, and am in agreement of your dislike
for
> Chicago's mayor, what do you think that will do, (even if a lot of people
go
> along with your line of thought and make a contingent contribution) with
the
> best possible outcome?
>
> Meigs will never be rebuilt, even when the current political machine is
long
> gone, don't you think? That is the way I see it, anyway.
> --
> Jim in NC
>
>
The original post only adressed the issue of consequences, and I believe
that any possibility of a major city losing an event of Olympic proportions
might have an effect on decisions in other cities.

I am not a Chicago native, nor a frequent visitor, and only visited Meigs on
one occasion many years ago. However, I always tended to thing of it in
terns of transient corporate aviation--rather than any basing of light
aircraft--and corporate aviation appears to be for more sensitive to
convenience and timeliness than to price. Therefore, since the closure had
must have inconvenienced a lot of "high rollers", and must continue to do
so, almost anything could gain some momentum.

In any case, I will be satisfied whether other municipalities view local
airports as assets or view airport closures as liabilities. Anything more
would be an unexpected, but most welcome, bonus.

Peter

[Larry Dighera]

On 5 Mar 2007 17:10:28 -0800, "Paul kgyy" > wrote
in om>:

>On Mar 5, 5:10 pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
>> On 5 Mar 2007 07:58:03 -0800, "Paul kgyy" > wrote
>> in . com>:
>>
>> > Music from downtown festivals in Grant Park is far more
>> >intrusive, and sometimes runs for hours on end.
>>
>> Typically, what time of day/night does this noise exist?
>
>Festival noise usually starts about noon, runs to 10PM.
>
>Motorcycles run all night.

Does that only occur the night an event is held?

Is there a lot of automobile noise otherwise?

>Somebody got arrested a couple of years ago doing 160 on a Kawasaki.

How do you apprehend a Kawasaki at 160 mph? :-)

Is it easy to check if crime has increased since the Megs closure? Are
there spikes in police activity associated with events?

What is the event schedule like. I presume it is limited to the
warmer months of the year?

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 20:44:07 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote in >:

>Meigs will never be rebuilt, even when the current political machine is long
>gone, don't you think? That is the way I see it, anyway.

You figure it would just cost to much to replicate Meigs? Is that the
rationale behind your vision?

[Andrew Gideon]

On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:44:07 -0500, Morgans wrote:

> with the best possible outcome?

Given that the vandal was just reelected, perhaps a sandstorm that buries
the entire city so it never bothers us again would be a fair consequence.
On the other hand, that's probably how many outside the US feel about the
US after the 2004 federal election.

More seriously, years of financial hardship would be nice. It may not
bring back Meigs, but it could serve as a deterrent to other locales
tempted to vandalize federal infrastructure.

On the other hand, perhaps we'd best give Chicago the pain it deserves by
helping the Olympics to be there. This hasn't done too well for several
recent host cities. And as someone that lives near NYC, I'm quite glad to
see the Olympics *not* in NYC. One little political convention was enough
nonsense; we don't need the hassles the Olympics would bring.

And I can always just avoid the place. I'd feel sorrow for NYC-dwellers
should they have to suffer this. Chicago though, gets no sympathy,

- Andrew

[swag]

On Mar 5, 9:02 pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On 5 Mar 2007 17:10:28 -0800, "Paul kgyy" > wrote
> in om>:
>
> >On Mar 5, 5:10 pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> >> On 5 Mar 2007 07:58:03 -0800, "Paul kgyy" > wrote
> >> in . com>:
>
> >> > Music from downtown festivals in Grant Park is far more
> >> >intrusive, and sometimes runs for hours on end.
>
> >> Typically, what time of day/night does this noise exist?
>
> >Festival noise usually starts about noon, runs to 10PM.
>
> >Motorcycles run all night.
>
> Does that only occur the night an event is held?
>
> Is there a lot of automobile noise otherwise?
>
> >Somebody got arrested a couple of years ago doing 160 on a Kawasaki.
>
> How do you apprehend a Kawasaki at 160 mph? :-)
>
> Is it easy to check if crime has increased since the Megs closure? Are
> there spikes in police activity associated with events?
>
> What is the event schedule like. I presume it is limited to the
> warmer months of the year?

With regard to the Kawasaki, the police did not try to apprehend him
while he was doing 160. They waited for him to reach the end of
LakeShore Drive where there is a 90 degree turn and nailed him there.
He went to jail and they took away the bike. When he was interviewed
he said the rush was worth it! He did it at around 2am and the police
tried to block off entrances to the drive to keep what little traffic
there was out of his way until they could nab him.

[Paul kgyy]

On Mar 5, 9:02 pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On 5 Mar 2007 17:10:28 -0800, "Paul kgyy" > wrote
> in om>:
>
> >On Mar 5, 5:10 pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> >> On 5 Mar 2007 07:58:03 -0800, "Paul kgyy" > wrote
> >> in . com>:
>
> >> > Music from downtown festivals in Grant Park is far more
> >> >intrusive, and sometimes runs for hours on end.
>
> >> Typically, what time of day/night does this noise exist?
[The worst is during Taste of Chicago, runs noon to 10 PM 7 days a
week for 2 weeks early July.
>
> >Festival noise usually starts about noon, runs to 10PM.
>
> >Motorcycles run all night.
>
> Does that only occur the night an event is held? [yes, but there can be multiple events at the same time, with overlapping sound]
>
> Is there a lot of automobile noise otherwise?
[Auto noise isn't a problem since trucks are banned from Lake Shore
Drive]
>
> >Somebody got arrested a couple of years ago doing 160 on a Kawasaki.
>
> How do you apprehend a Kawasaki at 160 mph? :-) [see below]
>
> Is it easy to check if crime has increased since the Megs closure? Are
> there spikes in police activity associated with events?
>
> What is the event schedule like. I presume it is limited to the
> warmer months of the year?

[Blueskies]

Did anyone see the Chicago bid for the Olympics? Poor old Miegs island turned in to some sort of venue. Damn shame...

[Jose]

> On the other hand, perhaps we'd best give Chicago the pain it deserves by
> helping the Olympics to be there.

Put the Olympics there, and close O'Hare.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Jose > wrote:

> > On the other hand, perhaps we'd best give Chicago the pain it deserves by
> > helping the Olympics to be there.
>
> Put the Olympics there, and close O'Hare.
>
> Jose

I heard that there are rumors that Chicago is thinking of reopening
Meigs, because the high rollers in business have noticed the (negative)
difference since the vandalism.

[Jose]

> I heard that there are rumors that Chicago is thinking of reopening
> Meigs, because the high rollers in business have noticed the (negative)
> difference since the vandalism.

Chicago should pay landing fees for all aircraft that land at the new
Meigs, and fuel them up for free, as compensation for the vandalism.
See, punative damages can come in handy.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Blueskies]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
: In article >,
: Jose > wrote:
:
: > > On the other hand, perhaps we'd best give Chicago the pain it deserves by
: > > helping the Olympics to be there.
: >
: > Put the Olympics there, and close O'Hare.
: >
: > Jose
:
: I heard that there are rumors that Chicago is thinking of reopening
: Meigs, because the high rollers in business have noticed the (negative)
: difference since the vandalism.


Nasty rumor, I'm sure. I saw a news story with an artist's rendering of what the shoreline would look like there at old
Meigs and Soldier field...

[[email protected]]

On Mar 5, 9:44 am, "Neil Gould" > wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Two airports in our area are under "attack" by groups that would rather
> not have air traffic in their new developments built beside the existing
> airport or the airport taking up space in the downtown lakefront area.
> While I can see many reasons why this is short-term thinking that would
> not serve the best interests of the region, I realize that as a GA pilot,
> I am biased. A similar situation existed in Chicago at the timeMeigswas
> closed that might shed some light on the reality of our situation.
>
> Where did the GA planes relocate, and has this had any impact on the
> owners' access to or use of their planes?
>
> Has there been any impact on the business travel to Chicago?
>
> Is all of the traffic handled adequately by O'Hare and Midway?
>
> Is there any record of positive or negative economic impact?
>
> Neil

Few to zero planes to relocate because there weren't any
hangers...the country clubbers can use MDW...JG

[[email protected]]

On Mar 5, 9:12 am, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> > Is there any record of positive or negative economic impact?
>
> That's going to be tough to answer, Neil. While you can certainly
> quantify the federal fines Chicago has absorbed due to Daley's
> Midnight Raid, and you can add up the lost income from fuel sales and
> landing fees, it's going to be nearly impossible toaccurately gauge
> the financial cost of NOT having an airport there, as opposed to the
> possible income from having a new park in its place.
>
> It's like trying to quantify marketing efforts in business, by asking
> "How many extra suites did we rent because of 'x' radio commercial?"
> The answer will be subjective and opinionated hearsay.
>
> If you surveyed folks in downtown Chicago, you might get all sorts of
> folks saying "We came to the Chicago lakefront today because it's so
> nice not to hear those noisy jets every five minutes" -- but you WON'T
> hear from the folks who used to come to the lakefront specifically
> because they liked to watch the planes. They're simply not there to
> ask.
>
> And you certainly won't get any answers from the folks who aren't
> visiting Chicago because there is no long any easy airport access.
>
> As a data point of one, however, I know for certain that we have *not*
> spent thousands of dollars in Chicago sinceMeigsclosed, specifically
> because there is no longer any easy access to downtown.
>
> You have to ask if closingMeigsADDED anyone who, conversely, spent
> those thousands, or more? I've heard they have concerts out on that
> peninsula now -- can anyone verify that?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Boo Hoo...meanwhile BILLIONS $$$ in condos are going up because the
neighborhood is quieter and fewer potential
kamakazis are in the skys..check out an example of the new
development.

www.kennyconstruction.com/building/MPT%20LoftII.htm

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> On Mar 5, 9:44 am, "Neil Gould" > wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Two airports in our area are under "attack" by groups that would rather
> > not have air traffic in their new developments built beside the existing
> > airport or the airport taking up space in the downtown lakefront area.
> > While I can see many reasons why this is short-term thinking that would
> > not serve the best interests of the region, I realize that as a GA pilot,
> > I am biased. A similar situation existed in Chicago at the timeMeigswas
> > closed that might shed some light on the reality of our situation.
> >
> > Where did the GA planes relocate, and has this had any impact on the
> > owners' access to or use of their planes?
> >
> > Has there been any impact on the business travel to Chicago?
> >
> > Is all of the traffic handled adequately by O'Hare and Midway?
> >
> > Is there any record of positive or negative economic impact?
> >
> > Neil
>
> Few to zero planes to relocate because there weren't any
> hangers...the country clubbers can use MDW...JG

N0 -- just people bringing $billions to Chicago every year! Stupid
people like "jgrove" are so myopic that they don't realize that those
multi-million dollar jets are there for a purpose -- to do business.

Meanwhile, he and his buddies go to the new park and smoke dope at the
rock concerts.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 8, 10:47 pm, Orval Fairbairn > wrote:

>
> > Few to zero planes to relocate because there weren't any
> > hangers...the country clubbers can use MDW...JG
>
> N0 -- just people bringing $billions to Chicago every year! Stupid
> people like "jgrove" are so myopic that they don't realize that those
> multi-million dollar jets are there for a purpose -- to do business.

Are they flying those "$billions" in pallets loaded with Currency, ala
the missings $6 BILLION in Iraq ??

>
> Meanwhile, he and his buddies go to the new park and smoke dope at the
> rock concerts.

Never used it, but I prefer that smell to the stench of Cigs. For
future reference, the BarFlys in the Viagra triangle prefer sailboats,
40 Foot minimum..JG

[[email protected]]

On Mar 5, 10:49 am, Orval Fairbairn > wrote:

>
> When I was in California, the Division of Aeronautics conducted (at the
> prodding of CA Pilots' Assn.) economic surveys of GA airports to
> determine economic benefits. At that time (1980s) the average benefit
> was around $100K per based airplane! Some airports (Palm Springs, for
> instance) were much higher, while some very small airports were less.

Did these "Researchers" also conclude that Catsup was a Vegetable for
bonzo reagan ??

>
> The opponents (mostly developers and eco-Nazis) did not like to hear
> this news, so they lobbied against further studies.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 7, 7:18 pm, "Blueskies" > wrote:
> :
> : > > On the other hand, perhaps we'd best give Chicago the pain it deserves by
> : > > helping the Olympics to be there.

Humid summers can cause physical harm for some atheletes, as a
Chicagoan I'd prefer it in LA.

Atlanta is still hated by visitors subjected to crazy right wing
bombers, Hill-Billy rural deputies unable to handle urban crowds and
sorry *ss transportation. THE Olympic Prez called it a "most unique"
event instead of the standard "Best Games Ever".

> Nasty rumor, I'm sure. I saw a news story with an artist's rendering of what the shoreline would look like there at old
> Meigs and Soldier field...

Northerly Island is used as a site for some venue in the sketches.
Maybe some OG $$ can be used to clean up the toxic CHEMICALS dumped by
years of chuck yeager wannabe vandalism.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article om>,
wrote:

> On Mar 8, 10:47 pm, Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
>
> >
> > > Few to zero planes to relocate because there weren't any
> > > hangers...the country clubbers can use MDW...JG
> >
> > N0 -- just people bringing $billions to Chicago every year! Stupid
> > people like "jgrove" are so myopic that they don't realize that those
> > multi-million dollar jets are there for a purpose -- to do business.
>
> Are they flying those "$billions" in pallets loaded with Currency, ala
> the missings $6 BILLION in Iraq ??


No, Mr. Ignoranus, they bring the pallets of money to Daley, to support
developers, mob bosses, etc.




> > Meanwhile, he and his buddies go to the new park and smoke dope at the
> > rock concerts.
>
> Never used it, but I prefer that smell to the stench of Cigs. For
> future reference, the BarFlys in the Viagra triangle prefer sailboats,
> 40 Foot minimum..JG

Does that float your boat?