"Full length"

[buttman]

What does it mean when a controller says "Cleared for landing full
length", or "cleared for takeoff full length"?

I've never heard this said until I started flying out of this airport
I'm based at now which has a 11,800 ft. runway. Does it mean he wants
me to land further down towards the middle of the runway?

In the past, I've always disregarded the phrase "full length" as quasi-
meaningless "supplemental" information (such as "#2 for landing").
I've made about 20 landings so far here, and 3 of them resulted in a
plane behind me having to do a go-around, so maybe there is something
more to it.

But then again, why would it even matter. I'm I'm still on the runway,
the controller can't clear anyone else for takeoff anyways until I
turn off the taxiway... Can someone shed some light on this?

[Ron Natalie]

buttman wrote:

> But then again, why would it even matter. I'm I'm still on the runway,
> the controller can't clear anyone else for takeoff anyways until I
> turn off the taxiway... Can someone shed some light on this?
>

I've never heard it on landing, but on takeoff it's used when the
taxiway doesn't go all the way to the threshold so full length lets
you back taxi down to get the "full length."

The term I hear on landing is "roll to the end." This means you
can continue straight ahead on the runway (usually at a higher
rate of speed) rather than slowing down and turning off at the
first practicable taxiway.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 5, 12:17 pm, "buttman" > wrote:
> What does it mean when a controller says "Cleared for landing full
> length", or "cleared for takeoff full length"?
>
> I've never heard this said until I started flying out of this airport
> I'm based at now which has a 11,800 ft. runway. Does it mean he wants
> me to land further down towards the middle of the runway?
>
> In the past, I've always disregarded the phrase "full length" as quasi-
> meaningless "supplemental" information (such as "#2 for landing").
> I've made about 20 landings so far here, and 3 of them resulted in a
> plane behind me having to do a go-around, so maybe there is something
> more to it.
>
> But then again, why would it even matter. I'm I'm still on the runway,
> the controller can't clear anyone else for takeoff anyways until I
> turn off the taxiway... Can someone shed some light on this?

Not sure about landing, but for departure, it
means there may be another aircraft waiting
for takeoff at an intersection. By stating "full
length", they put one more bit of redundant
information in there to reduce the chance
that the plane at the intersection mistakenly
thinks he's the one cleared to take off.

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp3/atc0307.html

Search that page for "full length". Note that
the phrase is required if another aircraft
is waiting at an intersection; optional if there
are no other aircraft waiting.

[Gene Seibel]

On Mar 5, 2:17 pm, "buttman" > wrote:
> What does it mean when a controller says "Cleared for landing full
> length", or "cleared for takeoff full length"?
>
> I've never heard this said until I started flying out of this airport
> I'm based at now which has a 11,800 ft. runway. Does it mean he wants
> me to land further down towards the middle of the runway?
>
> In the past, I've always disregarded the phrase "full length" as quasi-
> meaningless "supplemental" information (such as "#2 for landing").
> I've made about 20 landings so far here, and 3 of them resulted in a
> plane behind me having to do a go-around, so maybe there is something
> more to it.
>
> But then again, why would it even matter. I'm I'm still on the runway,
> the controller can't clear anyone else for takeoff anyways until I
> turn off the taxiway... Can someone shed some light on this?

On landing I would take it to mean I didn't need to hold short of
crossing runways, for one thing.
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.

[JB]

On Mar 5, 3:37 pm, "Gene Seibel" > wrote:
> On Mar 5, 2:17 pm, "buttman" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > What does it mean when a controller says "Cleared for landing full
> > length", or "cleared for takeoff full length"?
>
> > I've never heard this said until I started flying out of this airport
> > I'm based at now which has a 11,800 ft. runway. Does it mean he wants
> > me to land further down towards the middle of the runway?
>
> > In the past, I've always disregarded the phrase "full length" as quasi-
> > meaningless "supplemental" information (such as "#2 for landing").
> > I've made about 20 landings so far here, and 3 of them resulted in a
> > plane behind me having to do a go-around, so maybe there is something
> > more to it.
>
> > But then again, why would it even matter. I'm I'm still on the runway,
> > the controller can't clear anyone else for takeoff anyways until I
> > turn off the taxiway... Can someone shed some light on this?
>
> On landing I would take it to mean I didn't need to hold short of
> crossing runways, for one thing.
> --
> Gene Seibel
> Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes -http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
> Because we fly, we envy no one.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Gene has it right. When I've landed (occassionally) at big airports
with long runways for heavy metal, I've heard the "full length"
clearance. Use as much of the runway as needed. Its the opposite of
"after landing, hold short of runway xx".

--Jeff

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"buttman" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> What does it mean when a controller says "Cleared for landing full
> length", or "cleared for takeoff full length"?
>
> I've never heard this said until I started flying out of this airport
> I'm based at now which has a 11,800 ft. runway. Does it mean he wants
> me to land further down towards the middle of the runway?
>
> In the past, I've always disregarded the phrase "full length" as quasi-
> meaningless "supplemental" information (such as "#2 for landing").
> I've made about 20 landings so far here, and 3 of them resulted in a
> plane behind me having to do a go-around, so maybe there is something
> more to it.
>
> But then again, why would it even matter. I'm I'm still on the runway,
> the controller can't clear anyone else for takeoff anyways until I
> turn off the taxiway... Can someone shed some light on this?
>

"Runway two four full length position and hold", and "Runway two four full
length cleared for takeoff." are used when aircraft are departing from the
approach end and also from intersections. "Cleared for landing full length"
is nonstandard phraseology and only the issuing controller can tell you what
it means. My best guess is he means all of the runway is available to you,
which is also what "Cleared to land" means.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Gene Seibel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> On landing I would take it to mean I didn't need to hold short of
> crossing runways, for one thing.
>

How would that differ from, "Cleared to land"?

[Gene Seibel]

On Mar 5, 3:52 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> "Gene Seibel" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
> > On landing I would take it to mean I didn't need to hold short of
> > crossing runways, for one thing.
>
> How would that differ from, "Cleared to land"?

Differs from land and hold short.
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.

[Bob Gardner]

What Steve said. Also, you are wrong in thinking that the controller can't
clear anyone else for takeoff until you have turned off onto a taxiway. If
the airplane taking off is a similar type to yours (light single, for
example), all the controller needs befor issuing the takeoff clearance is
3000 feet of separation. Controller's discretion, of course.

Bob Gardner


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "buttman" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>
>> What does it mean when a controller says "Cleared for landing full
>> length", or "cleared for takeoff full length"?
>>
>> I've never heard this said until I started flying out of this airport
>> I'm based at now which has a 11,800 ft. runway. Does it mean he wants
>> me to land further down towards the middle of the runway?
>>
>> In the past, I've always disregarded the phrase "full length" as quasi-
>> meaningless "supplemental" information (such as "#2 for landing").
>> I've made about 20 landings so far here, and 3 of them resulted in a
>> plane behind me having to do a go-around, so maybe there is something
>> more to it.
>>
>> But then again, why would it even matter. I'm I'm still on the runway,
>> the controller can't clear anyone else for takeoff anyways until I
>> turn off the taxiway... Can someone shed some light on this?
>>
>
> "Runway two four full length position and hold", and "Runway two four full
> length cleared for takeoff." are used when aircraft are departing from the
> approach end and also from intersections. "Cleared for landing full
> length" is nonstandard phraseology and only the issuing controller can
> tell you what it means. My best guess is he means all of the runway is
> available to you, which is also what "Cleared to land" means.
>

[Brad[_1_]]

On Mar 5, 3:17 pm, "buttman" > wrote:

You had me up to this point...

> I've made about 20 landings so far here, and 3 of them resulted in a
> plane behind me having to do a go-around, so maybe there is something
> more to it.

Ha! Nice trolling. Are all instructions from controllers are quasi-
meaningless "supplemental" information, didn'ja know?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> What Steve said. Also, you are wrong in thinking that the controller can't
> clear anyone else for takeoff until you have turned off onto a taxiway. If
> the airplane taking off is a similar type to yours (light single, for
> example), all the controller needs befor issuing the takeoff clearance is
> 3000 feet of separation. Controller's discretion, of course.
>

Uhh, no. In that situation, departing aircraft behind landing aircraft, the
landing aircraft must taxi clear of the runway before the departing aircraft
begins to roll.


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/ATC/Chp3/atc0309.html#3-9-6

[Arnold Sten]

buttman wrote:
> What does it mean when a controller says "Cleared for landing full
> length", or "cleared for takeoff full length"?
>
> I've never heard this said until I started flying out of this airport
> I'm based at now which has a 11,800 ft. runway. Does it mean he wants
> me to land further down towards the middle of the runway?
>
> In the past, I've always disregarded the phrase "full length" as quasi-
> meaningless "supplemental" information (such as "#2 for landing").
> I've made about 20 landings so far here, and 3 of them resulted in a
> plane behind me having to do a go-around, so maybe there is something
> more to it.
>
> But then again, why would it even matter. I'm I'm still on the runway,
> the controller can't clear anyone else for takeoff anyways until I
> turn off the taxiway... Can someone shed some light on this?
>
You might do what I have done in similar situations of uncertainty: Just
give the tower controller or manager a phone call and ask them what they
mean or expect of you (or any landing pilot). I've always gotten helpful
and friendly information by talking to them directly via the landline.

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

Yep. Recently at Naples, FL they shot me out between landing aircraft.

Tower wanted me "up on the hold short line with my hand on the throttles
ready to go, absolutely no delay, do NOT stop on the runway when I clear
your takeoff!" I watched a 172 land long, miss the first intersection while
Tower told me to stand by pending the 172 clearing the runway, again,
"absolutely no delay when cleared for takeoff, standby."

My head was on a swivel watching the 172 head for the second intersection
and at the same time watching another aircraft on what looked to be about a
2 mile final. Tower gave me the word just as the 172 cleared the runway and
we were cleared for an immediate takeoff. Once we were rolling, the landing
traffic behind me was cleared to land.

Jim

[Nils Rostedt]

Slightly OT: Is there a difference between the meaning of "clear to land"
between US and Europe?

The reason I ask is because while watching the traffic flow at FLL, I got
the impression landing clearance for airplane X was given even though there
were still other planes ahead, as soon as ATC is sure the separation is big
enough for safety. In contrast, up here ATC gives the landing clearance only
when the previous plane has actually vacated the runway.

- Nils,
at 60 degrees north

[Stefan]

Nils Rostedt schrieb:

> enough for safety. In contrast, up here ATC gives the landing clearance only
> when the previous plane has actually vacated the runway.

I don't know the exact regulation, but I remember having once received
the clearance to land when I was number 4 and had not even reached the
downwind yet. This was in Germany, and I was pretty surprized. I suspect
they moniored me and would have withdrawn the clearance if needed.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Nils Rostedt" > wrote

> Slightly OT: Is there a difference between the meaning of "clear to land"
> between US and Europe?

Although I do not remember the specifics, the answer is yes, from what other
people have said in this forum.
--
Jim in NC

[John Clear]

In article >,
Nils Rostedt > wrote:
>Slightly OT: Is there a difference between the meaning of "clear to land"
>between US and Europe?
>
>The reason I ask is because while watching the traffic flow at FLL, I got
>the impression landing clearance for airplane X was given even though there
>were still other planes ahead, as soon as ATC is sure the separation is big
>enough for safety. In contrast, up here ATC gives the landing clearance only
>when the previous plane has actually vacated the runway.
>

Your understanding of the way it works in the US is correct. ATC
can issue the landing clearance on the expectation that the runway
will be free when you get there.

I've been "number 12, cleared to land" at Palo Alto (KPAO), and on
a different day, heard someone else get "number 15, cleared to
land". When I was number 12, only one plane before me had to go
around for traffic on the runway, which isn't bad at all.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Nils Rostedt" > wrote in message
. fi...
>
> Slightly OT: Is there a difference between the meaning of "clear to land"
> between US and Europe?
>
> The reason I ask is because while watching the traffic flow at FLL, I got
> the impression landing clearance for airplane X was given even though
> there were still other planes ahead, as soon as ATC is sure the separation
> is big enough for safety. In contrast, up here ATC gives the landing
> clearance only when the previous plane has actually vacated the runway.
>

I don't know about Europe, in the US landing clearance to succeeding
aircraft in a landing sequence need not be withheld if the controller
observes the positions of the aircraft and determines that prescribed runway
separation will exist when the aircraft cross the landing threshold.

[Al G[_1_]]

"JB" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Mar 5, 3:37 pm, "Gene Seibel" > wrote:
>> On Mar 5, 2:17 pm, "buttman" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > What does it mean when a controller says "Cleared for landing full
>> > length", or "cleared for takeoff full length"?
>>

I've heard it, but it was sort of tongue in cheek. Like: "If able, turn
left at the end..."

Al G

[Mike Young]

>>> On Mar 5, 2:17 pm, "buttman" > wrote:

>>> > What does it mean when a controller says "Cleared for landing full
>>> > length",

I take it as acknowledgement and explicit permission to land long to avoid
wake turbulence, possibly needed and well adviced when they sandwich your
spam can between two heavies.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Mike Young" > wrote in message
...
>
> I take it as acknowledgement and explicit permission to land long to avoid
> wake turbulence, possibly needed and well adviced when they sandwich your
> spam can between two heavies.
>

Is explicit permission needed to land long?

[TheSmokingGnu]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> Is explicit permission needed to land long?

Only when the field/runway is under a LAHSO procedure and/or the
controller gives you a LAHSO clearance, and you request otherwise.
"Cleared to land" gives you the entire runway length, by default.

TheSmokingGnu

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"TheSmokingGnu" > wrote in message
...
>
> Only when the field/runway is under a LAHSO procedure and/or the
> controller gives you a LAHSO clearance, and you request otherwise.
> "Cleared to land" gives you the entire runway length, by default.
>

Right, so adding "full length to "cleared to land" adds nothing but two
unnecessary words.

[Jose]

> Right, so adding "full length to "cleared to land" adds nothing but two
> unnecessary words.

The same can be said of any explicit statement that could be stated
implicitly. One person's "unnecessary words" are another person's
"useful redundancy".

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[TheSmokingGnu]

Jose wrote:
>> Right, so adding "full length to "cleared to land" adds nothing but
>> two unnecessary words.
>
> The same can be said of any explicit statement that could be stated
> implicitly. One person's "unnecessary words" are another person's
> "useful redundancy".

To whit, when entering Class D airspace, the controllers here typically
go into this long-winded tirade about "clearances" and "over the field"
and "watch for other traffic", when all they have to do is use my full
callsign to give me permission to enter the airspace.

Don't ask me why all that unnecessary verbiage is, erm, necessary. :P

TheSmokingGnu

[Chris]

"John Clear" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Nils Rostedt > wrote:
>>Slightly OT: Is there a difference between the meaning of "clear to land"
>>between US and Europe?
>>
>>The reason I ask is because while watching the traffic flow at FLL, I got
>>the impression landing clearance for airplane X was given even though
>>there
>>were still other planes ahead, as soon as ATC is sure the separation is
>>big
>>enough for safety. In contrast, up here ATC gives the landing clearance
>>only
>>when the previous plane has actually vacated the runway.
>>
>
> Your understanding of the way it works in the US is correct. ATC
> can issue the landing clearance on the expectation that the runway
> will be free when you get there.
>
> I've been "number 12, cleared to land" at Palo Alto (KPAO), and on
> a different day, heard someone else get "number 15, cleared to
> land". When I was number 12, only one plane before me had to go
> around for traffic on the runway, which isn't bad at all.

Normally in the UK only one aircraft is cleared to land and that is when the
aircraft is on final approach and the runway is clear of any preceding
aircraft.

An aircraft on final approach with one ahead is asked to continue until
cleared to land or he calls missed approach.

[Margy Natalie]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Mike Young" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I take it as acknowledgement and explicit permission to land long to avoid
>>wake turbulence, possibly needed and well adviced when they sandwich your
>>spam can between two heavies.
>>
>
>
> Is explicit permission needed to land long?
>
>
Although explicit permission isn't NEEDED when I was based at Dulles I
would always ask for permission to land long. 95% of the time I was
given it and the other 5% the controller would say something to the
effect "It would really help if you could exit the first high speed"
which I would do. It was really a matter of courtesy. The aircraft
that tried to make things easier for the controllers were also the ones
that the controllers would try to make things easier for the aircraft.
I would also get things likes "go to the intersection of Rt 7 and Rt 28
and circle, I'll get you in as soon as there is a gap", instead of
"remain clear the class B, I'll get back to you in 30 minutes".

Margy

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Margy Natalie" > wrote

> The aircraft that tried to make things easier for the controllers were
> also the ones that the controllers would try to make things easier for the
> aircraft. I would also get things likes "go to the intersection of Rt 7
> and Rt 28 and circle, I'll get you in as soon as there is a gap", instead
> of "remain clear the class B, I'll get back to you in 30 minutes".

Right!!!

I wash your back, you wash mine! <g>

That works in other things in life, besides ATC. :-)
--
Jim in NC