Low towing thought

[Martin Gregorie]

I did annual checks about a month ago, when we were encouraged to try
low position on the way up for spin checks. I decided that I like low
tow and will use it in future, but before I do so there's one thing I'd
like to ask the Aussies and other habitual low towers: when you release
do you just pull the bung in the low position or do you pop up above the
wake first?

I fly a Libelle, which normally tows with a lot of sag in the rope, even
with the wheel down, and it occurred to me that releasing in the low
position could cause the rings to pass close to the canopy or even hit
it. At least the Libelle has a nose hook: if this is an issue, would it
be even worse with a belly hook?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Mike the Strike]

On Mar 5, 8:50 am, Martin Gregorie > wrote:
> I did annual checks about a month ago, when we were encouraged to try
> low position on the way up for spin checks. I decided that I like low
> tow and will use it in future, but before I do so there's one thing I'd
> like to ask the Aussies and other habitual low towers: when you release
> do you just pull the bung in the low position or do you pop up above the
> wake first?

That was the procedure I was taught in South Africa. Just release and
immediately initialize a turn away.

It is interesting, though, when the tug slows down in a thermal to
watch the slack tow rope disappearing backwards over your canopy
towards the tail! I had a Jantar-1 that had a forward, but not nose-
mounted tow hook.

Mike

>

[[email protected]]

On Mar 5, 8:34 pm, "Mike the Strike" > wrote:
> On Mar 5, 8:50 am, Martin Gregorie > wrote:
>
> > I did annual checks about a month ago, when we were encouraged to try
> > low position on the way up for spin checks. I decided that I like low
> > tow and will use it in future, but before I do so there's one thing I'd
> > like to ask the Aussies and other habitual low towers: when you release
> > do you just pull the bung in the low position or do you pop up above the
> > wake first?
>
> That was the procedure I was taught in South Africa. Just release and
> immediately initialize a turn away.
>
> It is interesting, though, when the tug slows down in a thermal to
> watch the slack tow rope disappearing backwards over your canopy
> towards the tail! I had a Jantar-1 that had a forward, but not nose-
> mounted tow hook.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Interestingly enough, the FAA written exam. includes a question on
just this subject. The question is something like (pardon the liberal
paraphrasing, I left my book at the shop) "Releasing the tow rope from
the low tow position is:" A. Just fine; B. Not so good, because the
rope can snap forward and whack the towplane; C. Not a good idea
because it can whack your glider after release. The FAA's "correct"
answer is C.
I have only a CG hook, and would be kind of uncomfortable with the
tow rope rubbing the side of my glider during the entire tow.

Jim

[Oscar Goudriaan]

If you were taught (in South Africa) to release in low tow, I'm sorry to say
that you were taught the wrong procedure by the individual instructor. The
approved procedure, also in SA, is to come up to high tow slowly, put some
tension on the rope, and then release.
If you release in low tow, you run the risk of the odfur ring breaking
through your canopy, or at worst, tangling up your glider.

"Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
...
>I did annual checks about a month ago, when we were encouraged to try low
>position on the way up for spin checks. I decided that I like low tow and
>will use it in future, but before I do so there's one thing I'd like to ask
>the Aussies and other habitual low towers: when you release do you just
>pull the bung in the low position or do you pop up above the wake first?
>
> I fly a Libelle, which normally tows with a lot of sag in the rope, even
> with the wheel down, and it occurred to me that releasing in the low
> position could cause the rings to pass close to the canopy or even hit it.
> At least the Libelle has a nose hook: if this is an issue, would it be
> even worse with a belly hook?
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

[Graeme Cant]

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> I did annual checks about a month ago, when we were encouraged to try
> low position on the way up for spin checks. I decided that I like low
> tow and will use it in future, but before I do so there's one thing I'd
> like to ask the Aussies and other habitual low towers: when you release
> do you just pull the bung in the low position or do you pop up above the
> wake first?

In Oz it's a no-no to pop up into high tow as you release (with all due
respect to Oscar's experience and SA's rules) because it's been known to
initiate a kiting situation. I guess our experience is that a 'slow'
move through a turbulent slipstream into high tow isn't all that easy to
accomplish for ab initio and low experience pilots at the same time as
they're trying to stay in position, check for traffic before release,
think about which knob to pull and how to initiate a turn.

The current teaching in Oz is to tow in whatever position you prefer
(most choose low) BUT you release from the tow position you used for the
climb so you don't scare the tuggies. KISS principle.

In general, while all gliders in Oz should have a nose hook for aerotow,
in practice this isn't always possible and the few gliders with only
belly hooks usually high tow, while the rest have the luxury (as Martin
discovered, it's easier) of low tow. So Oscar's problem of the Ottfur
ring (?) breaking the canopy is not relevant.

> I fly a Libelle, which normally tows with a lot of sag in the rope, even
> with the wheel down, and it occurred to me that releasing in the low
> position could cause the rings to pass close to the canopy or even hit
> it. At least the Libelle has a nose hook: if this is an issue, would it
> be even worse with a belly hook?

I've never heard of a problem with low towing Libelles with nose hooks.
Obviously it would be sensible to release when the rope is under
tension but this applies to all towing. For those with only belly hooks,
see above.

GC

[Mal[_3_]]

"Graeme Cant" <gcantinter@tnodedotnet> wrote in message
...
> Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> I did annual checks about a month ago, when we were encouraged to try low
>> position on the way up for spin checks. I decided that I like low tow and
>> will use it in future, but before I do so there's one thing I'd like to
>> ask the Aussies and other habitual low towers: when you release do you
>> just pull the bung in the low position or do you pop up above the wake
>> first?
>
> In Oz it's a no-no to pop up into high tow as you release (with all due
> respect to Oscar's experience and SA's rules) because it's been known to
> initiate a kiting situation. I guess our experience is that a 'slow' move
> through a turbulent slipstream into high tow isn't all that easy to
> accomplish for ab initio and low experience pilots at the same time as
> they're trying to stay in position, check for traffic before release,
> think about which knob to pull and how to initiate a turn.
>
> The current teaching in Oz is to tow in whatever position you prefer (most
> choose low) BUT you release from the tow position you used for the climb
> so you don't scare the tuggies. KISS principle.
>
> In general, while all gliders in Oz should have a nose hook for aerotow,
> in practice this isn't always possible and the few gliders with only belly
> hooks usually high tow, while the rest have the luxury (as Martin
> discovered, it's easier) of low tow. So Oscar's problem of the Ottfur
> ring (?) breaking the canopy is not relevant.
>
>> I fly a Libelle, which normally tows with a lot of sag in the rope, even
>> with the wheel down, and it occurred to me that releasing in the low
>> position could cause the rings to pass close to the canopy or even hit
>> it. At least the Libelle has a nose hook: if this is an issue, would it
>> be even worse with a belly hook?
>
> I've never heard of a problem with low towing Libelles with nose hooks.
> Obviously it would be sensible to release when the rope is under tension
> but this applies to all towing. For those with only belly hooks, see
> above.
>
> GC

We used to go from low tow up into high tow or level tow as some may prefer.

After a few TUG pilots were killed in and some nearly killed they stopped
high tow unless you only have a belly hook.

We turn right after release.

We have released without turning like in wave etc and just to experiment I
have never come into contact with the rings as the tug accelerates away.

http://www.mals.net/

[Ian Strachan]

On Mar 5, 3:50 pm, Martin Gregorie > wrote:

> when you release, do you just pull the bung in the low position
> or do you pop up above the wake first?

If you release while still in low tow, aside from what happens to the
rope, how does the tuggie know that you have gone? Radio?

When tugging I have often wasted a few hundred feet of full-power
climb when the glider on the back has gone without either a mild
"twang" on the rope or a good visual indication by pulling up and
banking (from high tow) and seeing this in the tug's rear-view
mirror.

Ian Strachan
Lasham Tuggie

[Graeme Cant]

Ian Strachan wrote:

> If you release while still in low tow, aside from what happens to the
> rope, how does the tuggie know that you have gone? Radio?

One of the useful points of low tow is that a glider releasing causes a
definite nose down trim change (I'm told - I don't tow).

> When tugging I have often wasted a few hundred feet of full-power
> climb when the glider on the back has gone without either a mild
> "twang" on the rope or a good visual indication by pulling up and
> banking (from high tow) and seeing this in the tug's rear-view
> mirror.

Perhaps some tuggies have a more sensitive bum than others? :)

GC

> Ian Strachan
> Lasham Tuggie
>

[[email protected]]

On Mar 5, 10:50 am, Martin Gregorie > wrote:
> I did annual checks about a month ago, when we were encouraged to try
> low position on the way up for spin checks. I decided that I like low
> tow and will use it in future, but before I do so there's one thing I'd
> like to ask the Aussies and other habitual low towers: when you release
> do you just pull the bung in the low position or do you pop up above the
> wake first?
>
> I fly a Libelle, which normally tows with a lot of sag in the rope, even
> with the wheel down, and it occurred to me that releasing in the low
> position could cause the rings to pass close to the canopy or even hit
> it. At least the Libelle has a nose hook: if this is an issue, would it
> be even worse with a belly hook?
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |


Proper release procedure for low tow is to release from that position.
How do we know the "right" position? It is just below the tug wake
such that occasionally you will feel the wake on the top of the
vertical tail. Most people not well trained tend to fly too low.
When you release in "proper" position, the rope will go straight
forward and not up over the glider. If it goes up, you were too low.
Tuggie will feel release as in high tow. The difference is that he
will feel no trim change due to glider being on the thrust line of the
tug in low tow.
These comments based on 10,000+ tows at the back end and 5000+ at the
front end in low tow.
Cheers UH

[Mike the Strike]

Oscar:

As far as I remember, what I describe was standard procedure in both
Jo'burg clubs in the 1970's and 1980's. Not wrong, just different. I
remember also being taught never to release from a slack rope for the
reasons you describe.

Slack rope during low tow gave me more interesting experiences than I
have seen since using high tow here in the USA.

Mike

On Mar 5, 11:46 pm, "Oscar Goudriaan" > wrote:
> If you were taught (in South Africa) to release in low tow, I'm sorry to say
> that you were taught the wrong procedure by the individual instructor. The
> approved procedure, also in SA, is to come up to high tow slowly, put some
> tension on the rope, and then release.
> If you release in low tow, you run the risk of the odfur ring breaking
> through your canopy, or at worst, tangling up your glider.

[Chip Bearden]

> Proper release procedure for low tow is to release from that position.
> How do we know the "right" position? It is just below the tug wake
> such that occasionally you will feel the wake on the top of the
> vertical tail. Most people not well trained tend to fly too low.
> When you release in "proper" position, the rope will go straight
> forward and not up over the glider. If it goes up, you were too low.
> Tuggie will feel release as in high tow. The difference is that he
> will feel no trim change due to glider being on the thrust line of the
> tug in low tow.
> These comments based on 10,000+ tows at the back end and 5000+ at the
> front end in low tow.
> Cheers UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I've flown with UH's club here in the U.S., Valley Soaring
(Middletown, NY), which uses low tow as standard. My glider only has a
belly hook but I never had any problems releasing without any special
maneuvering. I prefer high tow but I do use low tow for long aerotows
(e.g., when retrieving) because it's less work. As UH says, if the
tug's wake is bumping the vertical tail occasionally, you're in the
right position.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"

[Tuno]

This topic is most interesting. I was never taught the low tow, or
presented with the concept at any of the 3 places I took lessons
(Estrella, Seminole Lakes and Turf, 3 years ago). How is it easier for
the glider driver? Wouldn't it create more work for the tug driver?

Are there any enthusiasts of the low tow who are also enthusiasts of
high wing loading for those good days? I've been in the "low tow"
position unintentionally at max wing loading when the tug driver musta
thought he was pulling a 2-33. Seems like there would be no room for
error if one started out in that position, and the tug then slowed
down!

~ted/2NO

[Marc Ramsey]

wrote:
> I have only a CG hook, and would be kind of uncomfortable with the
> tow rope rubbing the side of my glider during the entire tow.

If you are just below the wake (where you should be) there is enough sag
in the rope to clear the nose. The major disadvantage of low tow with a
CG hook is that if you let the rope get too slack (as may happen if you
encounter turbulence), it makes a loop underneath the glider and the
back release will do its thing...

Marc

[Bill Daniels]

"Tuno" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> This topic is most interesting. I was never taught the low tow, or
> presented with the concept at any of the 3 places I took lessons
> (Estrella, Seminole Lakes and Turf, 3 years ago). How is it easier for
> the glider driver? Wouldn't it create more work for the tug driver?
>
> Are there any enthusiasts of the low tow who are also enthusiasts of
> high wing loading for those good days? I've been in the "low tow"
> position unintentionally at max wing loading when the tug driver musta
> thought he was pulling a 2-33. Seems like there would be no room for
> error if one started out in that position, and the tug then slowed
> down!
>
> ~ted/2NO
>

I probably flew hundreds of low tows at the old El Mirage Field. Gus
Brigleib insisted on low tow.

If you are flying a low performance glider, the technique for slack is to
just push the nose lower. The glider will just move down and take the slack
out. If, however, you are flying a Nimbus, it will outrun the tug pasing
under it. Pulling up puts in more slack even as the glider slows down
ending in a jerk.

In the end, I suspect the reason Gus insisted on low tow was the TG-3's he
used as trainers. It was very difficult for the instructor, sitting 8 feet
or so behind the student, to see the tug while in high tow. There was a lot
of rollover structure and greenhouse canopy between the front and rear
cockpits. Low tow gives the instructor a great view of the tug. I really
can't think of another reason for low tow.

BTW, low tow seems easier only because there are fewer references, like the
horizon, to help detect being out of position. If you can't tell you are
out of position, it seems OK. In fact, the opposite may be true. In high
tow, the tugs wingtip vortices tend to push a glider back to center
position. In low tow, they tend to pull it out of position.

Bill Daniels

[bagmaker]

(from OZ)
heard an interesting radio chat when last at the feild, this is the shortened version
tuggie- "(glider id)your too low, please come up higher"
I assume all the waggles and signs were also going on, then, with no radio response heard from the glider
tuggie-"(glider id) I am going to have to release you as I am running out of down elevator authority, tow higher immediately"
shortly after, tuggie advises feild that he has released the glider and is returning to the pie cart for a new rope, no big deal.
Please dont read into this what is not there. I beleive there was perhaps a radio failure in the glider as well, but all said, this was an extreme case and there was no problems or danger during the whole process. The chatter went on over a period of a couple of minutes, the tuggie did not sound bothered at any time (to me)

Now imagine if this occured in a high tow situation, with the glider too high -all reversed.
The tuggie would have about 3 milliseconds to release before being in grave danger of going in.
Thats why we low tow.

I was taught to release the rope, visually ensure it was gone (and say so to the instructor) then turn away (right in OZ). In turbulence I have seen the rings a couple of times beside me after release, but havent been hit by them, I daresay it does happen. In reality your doing the same speed as the rings/rope so it should only be a tap anyhow.
The tug pulls the rope away fairly smartly, I have not been a tuggie, but I have not heard of a tow continuing far because the tug hadnt noticed the glider was missing!

I always release in lift, too. I am in rising air, the tug has just passed through it and is sinking, usually, so the system works well. I am often amazed at people saying they pulled the plug at 2500' or 3000' or wherever, only to find no lift and return to the feild.
Give yourself a minimum release height specific to the day and circumstances, go past that height and wait behind the tug untill you hit a thermal. Get off, turn right, thermal, and go XC. simple



bagger

[BT]

so what happened to that poor glider in low tow when 200ft of rope went back
over the top?

BT

"bagmaker" > wrote in message
...
>
> (from OZ)
> heard an interesting radio chat when last at the feild, this is the
> shortened version
> tuggie- "(glider id)your too low, please come up higher"
> I assume all the waggles and signs were also going on, then, with no
> radio response heard from the glider
> tuggie-"(glider id) I am going to have to release you as I am running
> out of down elevator authority, tow higher immediately"
> shortly after, tuggie advises feild that he has released the glider and
> is returning to the pie cart for a new rope, no big deal.
> Please dont read into this what is not there. I beleive there was
> perhaps a radio failure in the glider as well, but all said, this was
> an extreme case and there was no problems or danger during the whole
> process. The chatter went on over a period of a couple of minutes, the
> tuggie did not sound bothered at any time (to me)
>
> Now imagine if this occured in a high tow situation, with the glider
> too high -all reversed.
> The tuggie would have about 3 milliseconds to release before being in
> grave danger of going in.
> Thats why we low tow.
>
> I was taught to release the rope, visually ensure it was gone (and say
> so to the instructor) then turn away (right in OZ). In turbulence I
> have seen the rings a couple of times beside me after release, but
> havent been hit by them, I daresay it does happen. In reality your
> doing the same speed as the rings/rope so it should only be a tap
> anyhow.
> The tug pulls the rope away fairly smartly, I have not been a tuggie,
> but I have not heard of a tow continuing far because the tug hadnt
> noticed the glider was missing!
>
> I always release in lift, too. I am in rising air, the tug has just
> passed through it and is sinking, usually, so the system works well. I
> am often amazed at people saying they pulled the plug at 2500' or 3000'
> or wherever, only to find no lift and return to the feild.
> Give yourself a minimum release height specific to the day and
> circumstances, go past that height and wait behind the tug untill you
> hit a thermal. Get off, turn right, thermal, and go XC. simple
>
>
>
> bagger
>
>
>
>
> --
> bagmaker

[Vaughn Simon]

"Graeme Cant" <gcantinter@tnodedotnet> wrote in message
...
> In Oz it's a no-no to pop up into high tow as you release (with all due
> respect to Oscar's experience and SA's rules) because it's been known to
> initiate a kiting situation. I guess our experience is that a 'slow' move
> through a turbulent slipstream into high tow isn't all that easy to accomplish
> for ab initio and low experience pilots...

That trip up (and/or down) through the wake is part of the drill for the
"boxing the wake" manuver. I would never solo a student who couldn't do that.

Vaughn

[[email protected]]

My club is probably about the only one in the US that flies low-tow as
default. I fly an ASW-20 (cg hook only) in low-tow all the time.
Concur that if you are in the correct position (just below the wake)
and initiate immediate turn upon release, there is absolutely no issue
with the rope. It goes forward, I turn - no issue.

Should also say that unfortuantely (since I'd prefer to be in my
glider) I spend as much or more time at the front end of the rope and
have to agree with bagger - never had an issue running out of elevator
when someone gets a bit (or even a lot) low on low tow, but reversing
that if someone gets 1/4 as out of poistion going high on high tow, it
gets nasty fast or they get fed the rope. Thats why we fly low-tow.

IC

[Graeme Cant]

Vaughn Simon wrote:
> "Graeme Cant" <gcantinter@tnodedotnet> wrote in message
> ...
>> In Oz it's a no-no to pop up into high tow as you release (with all due
>> respect to Oscar's experience and SA's rules) because it's been known to
>> initiate a kiting situation. I guess our experience is that a 'slow' move
>> through a turbulent slipstream into high tow isn't all that easy to accomplish
>> for ab initio and low experience pilots...
>
> That trip up (and/or down) through the wake is part of the drill for the
> "boxing the wake" manuver. I would never solo a student who couldn't do that.
>
> Vaughn

Good.

Your point is?

GC

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 6, 9:11 am, "Tuno" > wrote:
> This topic is most interesting. I was never taught the low tow, or
> presented with the concept at any of the 3 places I took lessons
> (Estrella, Seminole Lakes and Turf, 3 years ago). How is it easier for
> the glider driver? Wouldn't it create more work for the tug driver?

I had to demonstrate satisfactory low tow at Estrella as a condition
of taking their 1-26 on a Silver XC attempt. Aero retrieve from the
milk run to Eloy was standard procedure. The reason given for low tow
was that it was easier for the glider pilot to keep in position and
keep tension in level flight during the retrieve.

I was taught low tow at Thruxton (UK) for descent on tow. Normal tows
were in high position.

I suspect that the vertical position difference between proper high
tow, just above the wake, and proper low tow, just below the wake, is
less than the range of vertical positions seen in US high tow. I've
been horrified at how high some pilots will tow and think they are in
the right position.

The single seaters I've flown most have had belly or CG hooks and I
prefer to tow just above the wake. That position is close to the
trust line of the tug. I don't have nearly as much experience on the
front to the rope as the back but I like to see the glider in the
mirror and proper high tow works well for that.

I have to wonder if the kiting argument is really a valid reason for
low tow. The difference between proper low low and proper high tow is
so small that I suspect an incapacitated pilot with full up elevator
will pass through the wake in much less than a second.

Rather than trying to convert the high towers to low tow, I'd like to
see them taught to fly high tow in the right place.

Andy

[[email protected]]

On Mar 6, 4:38 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> "Tuno" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
> > This topic is most interesting. I was never taught the low tow, or
> > presented with the concept at any of the 3 places I took lessons
> > (Estrella, Seminole Lakes and Turf, 3 years ago). How is it easier for
> > the glider driver? Wouldn't it create more work for the tug driver?
>
> > Are there any enthusiasts of the low tow who are also enthusiasts of
> > high wing loading for those good days? I've been in the "low tow"
> > position unintentionally at max wing loading when the tug driver musta
> > thought he was pulling a 2-33. Seems like there would be no room for
> > error if one started out in that position, and the tug then slowed
> > down!
>
> > ~ted/2NO
>
> I probably flew hundreds of low tows at the old El Mirage Field. Gus
> Brigleib insisted on low tow.
>
> If you are flying a low performance glider, the technique for slack is to
> just push the nose lower. The glider will just move down and take the slack
> out. If, however, you are flying a Nimbus, it will outrun the tug pasing
> under it. Pulling up puts in more slack even as the glider slows down
> ending in a jerk.
>
> In the end, I suspect the reason Gus insisted on low tow was the TG-3's he
> used as trainers. It was very difficult for the instructor, sitting 8 feet
> or so behind the student, to see the tug while in high tow. There was a lot
> of rollover structure and greenhouse canopy between the front and rear
> cockpits. Low tow gives the instructor a great view of the tug. I really
> can't think of another reason for low tow.
>
> BTW, low tow seems easier only because there are fewer references, like the
> horizon, to help detect being out of position. If you can't tell you are
> out of position, it seems OK. In fact, the opposite may be true. In high
> tow, the tugs wingtip vortices tend to push a glider back to center
> position. In low tow, they tend to pull it out of position.
>
> Bill Daniels

Gotta jump on this one- sorry Bill!
Suggestion of moving down to take up slack is absolutely wrong. This
will increase relative speed of glider and make the situation worse.
The usual reason for slack is glider quickly descending and thus
slightly overtaking tug. Just like what creates slack in high tow.
Proper technique when you get some slack is simply slide out to the
side until slack comes out. Then return to proper vertical position
and move back to center.
Since you are below the wake , vortices are not really and issue.
One of the nice parts about low tow is that you feel the wake on the
vertical tail as height warning instead of fuselage descending into
wake and causing glider to want to start out of position. 2-33 drivers
will recognize this scenario.
BTW- we've tried top stall the tug by pulling the tail down and not
been able to do it.
Cheers UH

[Bill Daniels]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Mar 6, 4:38 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>> "Tuno" > wrote in message
>>
>> oups.com...
>>
>> > This topic is most interesting. I was never taught the low tow, or
>> > presented with the concept at any of the 3 places I took lessons
>> > (Estrella, Seminole Lakes and Turf, 3 years ago). How is it easier for
>> > the glider driver? Wouldn't it create more work for the tug driver?
>>
>> > Are there any enthusiasts of the low tow who are also enthusiasts of
>> > high wing loading for those good days? I've been in the "low tow"
>> > position unintentionally at max wing loading when the tug driver musta
>> > thought he was pulling a 2-33. Seems like there would be no room for
>> > error if one started out in that position, and the tug then slowed
>> > down!
>>
>> > ~ted/2NO
>>
>> I probably flew hundreds of low tows at the old El Mirage Field. Gus
>> Brigleib insisted on low tow.
>>
>> If you are flying a low performance glider, the technique for slack is to
>> just push the nose lower. The glider will just move down and take the
>> slack
>> out. If, however, you are flying a Nimbus, it will outrun the tug pasing
>> under it. Pulling up puts in more slack even as the glider slows down
>> ending in a jerk.
>>
>> In the end, I suspect the reason Gus insisted on low tow was the TG-3's
>> he
>> used as trainers. It was very difficult for the instructor, sitting 8
>> feet
>> or so behind the student, to see the tug while in high tow. There was a
>> lot
>> of rollover structure and greenhouse canopy between the front and rear
>> cockpits. Low tow gives the instructor a great view of the tug. I
>> really
>> can't think of another reason for low tow.
>>
>> BTW, low tow seems easier only because there are fewer references, like
>> the
>> horizon, to help detect being out of position. If you can't tell you
>> are
>> out of position, it seems OK. In fact, the opposite may be true. In
>> high
>> tow, the tugs wingtip vortices tend to push a glider back to center
>> position. In low tow, they tend to pull it out of position.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>
> Gotta jump on this one- sorry Bill!
> Suggestion of moving down to take up slack is absolutely wrong. This
> will increase relative speed of glider and make the situation worse.
> The usual reason for slack is glider quickly descending and thus
> slightly overtaking tug. Just like what creates slack in high tow.
> Proper technique when you get some slack is simply slide out to the
> side until slack comes out. Then return to proper vertical position
> and move back to center.
> Since you are below the wake , vortices are not really and issue.
> One of the nice parts about low tow is that you feel the wake on the
> vertical tail as height warning instead of fuselage descending into
> wake and causing glider to want to start out of position. 2-33 drivers
> will recognize this scenario.
> BTW- we've tried top stall the tug by pulling the tail down and not
> been able to do it.
> Cheers UH
>

Please note that I did qualify my statement with the phrase "low performance
glider". In the days I was flying low tow, it was rare to find a glider
with more than 30:1. The 2-22's were about 20:1. These glilders won't
accelerate as you nose down. As you point out, higher performance gliders
will over run the rope.

Wing tip vortices have a laminar far field effects that extends at least one
tug wingspan. I did some wing tip vortex turbulence studies in the 1960's
with smoke grenades on the tug wing. That was one of the results. It means
that the glider is always under the influence of the two wingtip vortices
coming from the tug whether the pilot can sense the turbulence or not.

An interesting experiment is to position the glider to one side while in
high tow. Then, keep the gliders wings exactly level with reference to the
tug but otherwise allow the glider to go where it will. The glider will
gently swing back to center as it is pushed by the wing tip vortex. Try
that in low tow and the vortex flow will pull the glider away from center.

Bill Daniels

[Vaughn Simon]

"Graeme Cant" <gcantinter@tnodedotnet> wrote in message
...
> Vaughn Simon wrote:
>> "Graeme Cant" <gcantinter@tnodedotnet> wrote in message
>> ...
>>> In Oz it's a no-no to pop up into high tow as you release (with all due
>>> respect to Oscar's experience and SA's rules) because it's been known to
>>> initiate a kiting situation. I guess our experience is that a 'slow' move
>>> through a turbulent slipstream into high tow isn't all that easy to
>>> accomplish for ab initio and low experience pilots...
>>
>> That trip up (and/or down) through the wake is part of the drill for the
>> "boxing the wake" manuver. I would never solo a student who couldn't do
>> that.
>>
>> Vaughn
>
> Good.
>
> Your point is?

My point is that the slow "trip through the wake" should not be a problem,
even for ab initio and low experience pilots. It is something that is easily
trained for and practiced.

Vaughn

[Martin Gregorie]

Thanks, guys. I've learnt a lot from this thread: all I hoped to find
out and a lot of other valuable stuff as well. Mainly that, as a
beginner at that game I'm going far too low. I see more practice in my
future.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Graeme Cant]

Vaughn Simon wrote:
> "Graeme Cant" <gcantinter@tnodedotnet> wrote in message
> ...
>> Vaughn Simon wrote:
>>> "Graeme Cant" <gcantinter@tnodedotnet> wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> In Oz it's a no-no to pop up into high tow as you release (with all due
>>>> respect to Oscar's experience and SA's rules) because it's been known to
>>>> initiate a kiting situation. I guess our experience is that a 'slow' move
>>>> through a turbulent slipstream into high tow isn't all that easy to
>>>> accomplish for ab initio and low experience pilots...
>>> That trip up (and/or down) through the wake is part of the drill for the
>>> "boxing the wake" manuver. I would never solo a student who couldn't do
>>> that.
>>>
>>> Vaughn
>> Good.
>>
>> Your point is?
>
> My point is that the slow "trip through the wake" should not be a problem,
> even for ab initio and low experience pilots. It is something that is easily
> trained for and practiced.

1. In my instructing experience boxing the wake is a moderately
difficult manoeuvre to carry out in a well-controlled way for ab initio
and low experience pilots. Many experienced pilots botch boxing the
wake on their annual check. That's why instructors set it as an
exercise. I suspect that's why you set it.

2. Boxing the wake doesn't actually involve a trip directly through the
slipstream.

GC
>
> Vaughn
>
>
>

[Nyal Williams]

Properly done, boxing the wake begins by a descent
through the wake, a box around the wake, and then an
ascent back up through the wake. This shows the student
the extremes of where one can go safely on tow.

At 13:48 08 March 2007, Graeme Cant wrote:
>Vaughn Simon wrote:
>> 'Graeme Cant' wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Vaughn Simon wrote:
>>>> 'Graeme Cant' wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> In Oz it's a no-no to pop up into high tow as you
>>>>>release (with all due
>>>>> respect to Oscar's experience and SA's rules) because
>>>>>it's been known to
>>>>> initiate a kiting situation. I guess our experience
>>>>>is that a 'slow' move
>>>>> through a turbulent slipstream into high tow isn't
>>>>>all that easy to
>>>>> accomplish for ab initio and low experience pilots...
>>>> That trip up (and/or down) through the wake is
>>>>part of the drill for the
>>>> 'boxing the wake' manuver. I would never solo a student
>>>>who couldn't do
>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> Vaughn
>>> Good.
>>>
>>> Your point is?
>>
>> My point is that the slow 'trip through the wake'
>>should not be a problem,
>> even for ab initio and low experience pilots. It
>>is something that is easily
>> trained for and practiced.
>
>1. In my instructing experience boxing the wake is
>a moderately
>difficult manoeuvre to carry out in a well-controlled
>way for ab initio
>and low experience pilots. Many experienced pilots
>botch boxing the
>wake on their annual check. That's why instructors
>set it as an
>exercise. I suspect that's why you set it.
>
>2. Boxing the wake doesn't actually involve a trip
>directly through the
>slipstream.
>
>GC
>>
>> Vaughn
>>
>>
>>
>

[Tony Verhulst]

Nyal Williams wrote:
> Properly done, boxing the wake begins by a descent
> through the wake, a box around the wake, and then an
> ascent back up through the wake. This shows the student
> the extremes of where one can go safely on tow.

I agree and this is how I do it and teach it. But in the US, the PTS
doesn't say that you have to do it this way. And, it's referenced source
for the maneuver, The Soaring Flight Manual, also does not mention going
through the wake. If, on a flight review, a rated pilot boxes the wake
without going through it, I keep my mouth shut. But, then later I will
ask for a tow transition through the wake prior to release.

Tony V
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

[5Z]

On Mar 8, 6:44 am, Graeme Cant <gcantinter@tnodedotnet> wrote:
> 1. In my instructing experience boxing the wake is a moderately
> difficult manoeuvre to carry out in a well-controlled way for ab initio
> and low experience pilots. Many experienced pilots botch boxing the
> wake on their annual check. That's why instructors set it as an
> exercise. I suspect that's why you set it.

Yes. And I stress *precision* in the exercise. The point is not to
get around the wake as fast as possible, it is to prove to the
instructor that you have the skill to make the various transitions
while maintaining control of the glider.

> 2. Boxing the wake doesn't actually involve a trip directly through the
> slipstream.

Many people begin the exercise by dropping from high to low tow
through the wake. This help establish the reference for where the
bottom part of the box should be.

-Tom

[47Dodge]

Tony Verhulst wrote:

> But in the US, the PTS
> doesn't say that you have to do it this way. And, it's referenced source
> for the maneuver, The Soaring Flight Manual, also does not mention going
> through the wake. If, on a flight review, a rated pilot boxes the wake
> without going through it, I keep my mouth shut. But, then later I will
> ask for a tow transition through the wake prior to release.


They done went and changed it agin, then:

http://tinyurl.com/2fksg7

faa-h-8083-13, pp101-102 (2003)


"BOXING THE WAKE

"Boxing the wake is a performance maneuver designed
to demonstrate a pilot’s ability to accurately maneuver
the glider around the towplane’s wake during aerotow.

"Boxing the wake requires flying a rectangular pattern
around the towplane’s wake. _Before starting the
maneuver, the glider should descend through the wake
to the center low tow position as a signal to the tow
pilot that the maneuver is about to begin_. The pilot
uses coordinated control inputs to move the glider out
to one side of the wake and holds that lower corner of
the rectangle momentarily with rudder pressure. Applying
back pressure to the control stick starts a vertical
ascent, then rudder pressure is used to maintain equal
distance from the wake. The pilot holds the wings level
with the ailerons to parallel the towplane’s wings. When
the glider has attained high corner position, the pilot
momentarily maintains this position.

"As the maneuver continues, the pilot reduces the rudder
pressure and uses coordinated flight controls to bank
the glider to fly along the top side of the box. The
glider should proceed to the opposite corner using
aileron and rudder pressure, as appropriate. The pilot
maintains this position momentarily with rudder pres-
sure, then begins a vertical descent by applying for-
ward pressure to the control stick. Rudder pressure is
used to maintain glider position at an equal distance
from the wake. The pilot holds the wings level with the
ailerons to parallel the towplane’s wings. When the
glider has attained low corner position, the pilot
momentarily maintains this position. The pilot releases
the rudder pressure and, using coordinated flight
controls, banks the glider to fly along the bottom side
of the box until reaching the original center low tow
position._From center low tow position, the pilot
maneuvers the glider through the wake to the center
high tow position, completing the maneuver_.

"COMMON ERRORS
-Performing an excessively large rectangle
around the wake.
• -Improper control coordination and procedure
• -Abrupt or rapid changes of position."

---------------------------------------------------


Jack

[jcarlyle]

Adding to Tom's point, there are "locational" variations to boxing the
wake. Where I learned, we would drop down to low tow, climb right back
up to high tow, then box the wake going clockwise around the wake.
Where I fly now, we drop to low tow, box the wake going clockwise
around the wake, then climb back up to high tow. I've heard that at
some sites the wake is boxed going counter-clockwise around the wake
instead of clockwise.

None of these variations really matter much - as 5Z says, the whole
point of the maneuver "is to prove to the instructor that you have the
skill to make the various transitions while maintaining control of the
glider."

-John

On Mar 8, 11:03 am, "5Z" > wrote:
> Many people begin the exercise by dropping from high to low tow
> through the wake. This help establish the reference for where the
> bottom part of the box should be.
>
> -Tom

[chipsoars]

On Mar 8, 11:31 am, "jcarlyle" > wrote:
> Adding to Tom's point, there are "locational" variations to boxing the
> wake. Where I learned, we would drop down to low tow, climb right back
> up to high tow, then box the wake going clockwise around the wake.
> Where I fly now, we drop to low tow, box the wake going clockwise
> around the wake, then climb back up to high tow. I've heard that at
> some sites the wake is boxed going counter-clockwise around the wake
> instead of clockwise.
>
> None of these variations really matter much - as 5Z says, the whole
> point of the maneuver "is to prove to the instructor that you have the
> skill to make the various transitions while maintaining control of the
> glider."
>
> -John
>
> On Mar 8, 11:03 am, "5Z" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Many people begin the exercise by dropping from high to low tow
> > through the wake. This help establish the reference for where the
> > bottom part of the box should be.
>
> > -Tom- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

John,

that is not quite correct. As one of your highly overpaid
instructors, I really don't care if one goes left or right so long as
the maneuver is performed to the standard.

Chip F.

[jcarlyle]

Chip,

My point was that one must satisfy the instructor - perhaps I said it
poorly. We'll talk off-line about nuances.

In a similar vein, while the discussion of high tow versus low tow in
this thread is interesting, as a towee it's really quite irrelevant.
We'll fly the way the tow pilot wants us to fly, or it'll get very
quiet, very quickly.The man at the head of the rope is most definitely
in command of the formation flight!

-John

On Mar 8, 11:49 am, "chipsoars" > wrote:
> that is not quite correct. As one of your highly overpaid
> instructors, I really don't care if one goes left or right so long as
> the maneuver is performed to the standard.

[Tony Verhulst]

> They done went and changed it agin, then:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2fksg7
>
> faa-h-8083-13, pp101-102 (2003)

I expect that they WILL. The next update to the Practical Test Standard
will, no doubt, reference the Glider Flying Handbook for this maneuver.
The current PTS references the (otherwise excellent) Soaring Flight
Manual, unfortunately in this case.

The current PTS reads:

TASK E: BOXING THE WAKE

REFERENCE: Soaring Flight Manual

Objective. To determine that the applicant:

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements to boxing the
wake (maneuvering around the wake).
2. Maneuvers the glider, while on tow, slightly outside the
towplane's wake in a rectangular, box-like pattern.
3. Maintains proper control and coordination.

Not exactly detailed, is it :-) ?

[Graeme Cant]

5Z wrote:
....snip
> Many people begin the exercise by dropping from high to low tow
> through the wake. This helps establish the reference for where the
> bottom part of the box should be.

I've not seen that but it's an interesting thought. Being down under,
of course, we'd usually begin by climbing. :)

GC
>
> -Tom
>

[Graeme Cant]

Nyal Williams wrote:
> Properly done, boxing the wake begins by a descent
> through the wake, a box around the wake, and then an
> ascent back up through the wake. This shows the student
> the extremes of where one can go safely on tow.

Sometimes I think the main problem of the increasing age of glider
pilots is the growing level of dogmatism. :)

GC

[Doug]

And doing it upside down at the same time.

"Graeme Cant" <gcantinter@tnodedotnet> wrote in message
...
> 5Z wrote:
> ...snip
>> Many people begin the exercise by dropping from high to low tow
>> through the wake. This helps establish the reference for where the
>> bottom part of the box should be.
>
> I've not seen that but it's an interesting thought. Being down under, of
> course, we'd usually begin by climbing. :)
>
> GC
>>
>> -Tom
>>

[47Dodge]

Graeme Cant wrote:
> Nyal Williams wrote:
>> Properly done, boxing the wake begins by a descent
>> through the wake, a box around the wake, and then an
>> ascent back up through the wake. This shows the student
>> the extremes of where one can go safely on tow.
>
> Sometimes I think the main problem of the increasing age of glider
> pilots is the growing level of dogmatism. :)


Do you find standardization of training and checking to have no value?


Jack

[Graeme Cant]

47Dodge wrote:
> Graeme Cant wrote:
>> Nyal Williams wrote:
>>> Properly done, boxing the wake begins by...
>>
>> Sometimes I think the main problem of the increasing age of glider
>> pilots is the growing level of dogmatism. :)
>
> Do you find standardization of training and checking to have no value?

On the contrary - up to a certain point - but what has that to do with
the dogmatic statement "Properly done..."?

On whose authority? Who's Nyall to lay down the law using words like
"properly done..."? Is this some tinpot foreign standard?

His description of boxing the wake is nothing like the normal way it's
done. How, for example, can you begin by descending through the wake
when you're already in low tow? When I check the Instructor's Manual, I
find I'm teaching what's normal...and proper... and it contains no climb
or descent through the wake.

As I said to Tom, it's an interesting variation which clearly has some
value and I'm going to use it with students and see how it goes, but in
my neck of the woods it would be completely non-standard and IMproper.

It may just be Nyall's parochialism but it comes over as dogmatism. :)

GC
>
> Jack

[Chip Bearden]

Sorry, Graeme, I just can't resist: :)

On Mar 9, 7:01 am, Graeme Cant wrote:

> Sometimes I think the main problem of the increasing age of glider
> pilots is the growing level of dogmatism. :)

And then two days later...

>His [Nyal's] description of boxing the wake is nothing like the normal way it's
>done.

Actually, I agree with you (at least I think so). I, too, tend to
think the way I do things is "normal." But I also understand your
point that what's "normal" for one operation (e.g., high tow) may not
be for another. Some of it is local custom. Some of it probably is
narrowmindedness or dogma. And a lot of it is the difficulty of
communicating sometimes-complex ideas in a few words on this forum; we
occasionally use a word such as "normal" that we would hasten to
correct if we were talking face-to-face and we saw someone's eyebrow
go up in response.

This thread is a good reminder to me that after 40+ years in soaring,
I must still be openminded, albeit careful, when someone shows me
something I haven't seen before that works at least as well, sometimes
better. I still prefer high tow most of the time, especially when
launching with a lot of ballast. When at constant altitude or
descending (e.g., on aero retrieve), I MUCH prefer low tow. I'm not a
tug pilot so my perspective is limited.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"

[Nyal Williams]

Ah, well, we all write hastily and in something of
a short hand. I intended no dogma and should have
said 'If you want to derive the maximum good from the
experience, descend through the wake before beginning
to box it.'

The FAA's PTS make no mention of going through the
wake and only require going around it without touching
it. My point was that, as an instructional exercise,
if the pilot is in high tow position and descends through
the wake, it will give a fresh view of where the bottom
of the wake is located. The pilot can then proceed
around the wake with better assurance of not bumping
into it when he/she comes back to bottom center and
ready to go back up through it to the beginning spot.
The student can be told that anywhere in this box
is a normal place to be and there is no danger unless
the glider is about to move outside the box.

My original comment was in reaction to the earlier
one about students and low time pilots not being able
to traverse the wake with ease and security. Teaching
them to traverse the wake will meet that problem head
on and the student will develop that skill before soloing,
even though it is not required at that level. I taught
boxing the wake for years before I had students going
through it in this way. It was suggested to my by
another instructor and I find it valuable, but I wouldn't
insist on it -- just as the PTS do not.

It is my impression that in the USA most pilots use
high-tow position. I've read the arguments for low
tow, but I don't feel as comfortable with it as with
high tow even on a 50 mile XC tow, but I don't argue
the point; I recognize that my comfort level is the
result of my own experience.



At 17:42 11 March 2007, Chip Bearden wrote:
>Sorry, Graeme, I just can't resist: :)
>
>On Mar 9, 7:01 am, Graeme Cant wrote:
>
>> Sometimes I think the main problem of the increasing
>>age of glider
>> pilots is the growing level of dogmatism. :)
>
>And then two days later...
>
>>His [Nyal's] description of boxing the wake is nothing
>>like the normal way it's
>>done.
>
>Actually, I agree with you (at least I think so). I,
>too, tend to
>think the way I do things is 'normal.' But I also understand
>your
>point that what's 'normal' for one operation (e.g.,
>high tow) may not
>be for another. Some of it is local custom. Some of
>it probably is
>narrowmindedness or dogma. And a lot of it is the difficulty
>of
>communicating sometimes-complex ideas in a few words
>on this forum; we
>occasionally use a word such as 'normal' that we would
>hasten to
>correct if we were talking face-to-face and we saw
>someone's eyebrow
>go up in response.
>
>This thread is a good reminder to me that after 40+
>years in soaring,
>I must still be openminded, albeit careful, when someone
>shows me
>something I haven't seen before that works at least
>as well, sometimes
>better. I still prefer high tow most of the time, especially
>when
>launching with a lot of ballast. When at constant altitude
>or
>descending (e.g., on aero retrieve), I MUCH prefer
>low tow. I'm not a
>tug pilot so my perspective is limited.
>
>Chip Bearden
>ASW 24 'JB'
>
>

[Graeme Cant]

Nyal Williams wrote:
> Ah, well, we all write hastily and in something of
> a short hand.

I guess some of us old men sound dogmatic and others just sound plain
grumpy. My apologies. :)

GC

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 11, 12:45 pm, Nyal Williams
> The student can be told that anywhere in this box
> is a normal place to be

I think some tug pilots believe this too. It probably explains why
some of them refuse to turn in response to the glider maintaining high
left or high right tow position.


Andy

[Nyal Williams]

I should have said 'safe' instead of 'normal.' But
to respond to the comment, I have been told by tow
pilots at more than one site that they don't really
feel a tug to the left or right and don't notice it
unless they see it in a mirror.

The tow pilots at one commercial operation insisted
that those commands were invented when tow planes were
souped up Cubs and that they are too subtle for Pawnees.
I'm not a tow pilot and I have no opinion on this.

I think we have tugged this subject about every place
it can go.

At 15:06 12 March 2007, Andy wrote:
>On Mar 11, 12:45 pm, Nyal Williams
>> The student can be told that anywhere in this box
>> is a normal place to be
>
>I think some tug pilots believe this too. It probably
>explains why
>some of them refuse to turn in response to the glider
>maintaining high
>left or high right tow position.
>
>
>Andy
>
>
>
>
>
>

[toad]

On Mar 12, 11:03 am, "Andy" > wrote:
> On Mar 11, 12:45 pm, Nyal Williams
>
> > The student can be told that anywhere in this box
> > is a normal place to be
>
> I think some tug pilots believe this too. It probably explains why
> some of them refuse to turn in response to the glider maintaining high
> left or high right tow position.
>
> Andy

The way some pilots fly tow, they have to be persistent to get my
attention, or reach the limits of my rudder pedals.

Todd Smith
"3S"

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 12, 10:04 am, "toad" > wrote:
> The way some pilots fly tow, they have to be persistent to get my
> attention, or reach the limits of my rudder pedals.

I was once hanging out at about a 45 deg angle to the tug with half
airbrake and looking into the tug cockpit through the side window. I
held the position for about half a minute and he still refused to
turn. At that point I was high enough to release and make my own way
to the gaggle. That tug pilot was more persistant than I cared to be.


Andy

[47Dodge]

Nyal Williams wrote:
> I should have said 'safe' instead of 'normal.' But
> to respond to the comment, I have been told by tow
> pilots at more than one site that they don't really
> feel a tug to the left or right and don't notice it
> unless they see it in a mirror.
>
> The tow pilots at one commercial operation insisted
> that those commands were invented when tow planes were
> souped up Cubs and that they are too subtle for Pawnees.
> I'm not a tow pilot and I have no opinion on this.

Depends on how committed is the glider pilot to getting the tow
pilot's attention. A Pawnee will definitely be displaced in yaw by a
determined glider pilot, especially one who is a determinedly
ham-fisted student in a 2-33.

Perhaps these tow pilots too whom you spoke were blessed with very
shy or very polished glider pilots.


Jack