Collision Avoidance Systems for gliders

[noel56z]

After reading of the recent mid-air out West I bought a Zaon MRX PCAS
(Portable Collision Avoidance System) from Aircraft Spruce &
Speciality to try out. I also fly a Piper Vagabond without an
electrical system and this unit doesn't require your aircraft have a
mode C transponder as it's a passive system using the Mode C readout
from another airplane. The unit has a build in electronic altimeter
which compares the Mode C readout of the "target" a/c and gives you a
"relative" altitude difference and approxiamate range. I used it
locally on the ground and observed the readout of a Piper Cherokee
on downwind at the local airport..turn base and
final........amazing!!! Although this unit doesn't give you a bearing
to the target it does give you the altitude and range which sure gives
you some warning. They have a web site http:zaonflight.com which has
an online manual, etc.

Noel Anderson
Schweizer 1-26E

[jeplane]

I just brought one from Sporty's. It picks up the F-16's from Luke AFB
over my house while sitting in my living room. Pretty good!

Now, I am just crossing fingers to win the new 172 Sporty's offer ever
year...:-)

Richard
ASW19
Phoenix AZ

[[email protected]]

On Mar 6, 7:21 pm, "jeplane" > wrote:
> I just brought one from Sporty's. It picks up the F-16's from Luke AFB
> over my house while sitting in my living room. Pretty good!
>
> Now, I am just crossing fingers to win the new 172 Sporty's offer ever
> year...:-)
>
> Richard
> ASW19
> Phoenix AZ

Items like these can often be purchased from a glider operator who
will appreciate any business you can provide. In many, if not most
cases, you can buy at a lower price, and help keep that gliderport
open so many glider pilots will have a place to fly in the future.

Anyway, The ZAON device is simply a great device. Everyone we have
loaned it to has purchased one. Simple, relatively cheap and it does
exactly what is advertised.

Tom Knauff
Knauff & Grove Soaring Supplies
Ridge Soaring Gliderport

[flying_monkey[_1_]]

OK, gotta jump in here. It's my opinion that if anyone who has any
interest in soaring (for example, someone reading this group) is
buying something even remotely soaring related, it's a crime not to
buy it from one of the operators like Tom, or Richard or Paul or Tim
or ... (insert here your soaring supplier of choice, sorry if I missed
anybody). The way you keep gliderports and gliding-related businesses
in business is to buy stuff from them. They do a lot for us. If it
weren't for the commercial operators, where would we fly? Who would
tow us? I routinely plan to pay as much as a 5% or 10% premium if I
have to, just to help them out.

This is just the Walmart/Home Depot problem on a smaller scale. It's
probably impossible to beat these big box stores, but if you want to
keep your hometown hardware store in business, (and you would want to,
unless they're really bad price gougers) buy from them whenever you
want something that they have.

Now, I understand wanting to be in the Sporty's sweepstakes, but you
can solve that by buying a chart from them. If you want a Zaon, buy
it from one of the above. Now, I think it's fair to shop for price
between them if you want, but unless it's unavoidable keep it between
them. If you have a long-term relationship with one, maybe one who's
done you favors before just because they're nice guys, make it up by
buying stuff from them, without arguing the price.

Ed

>
> Items like these can often be purchased from a glider operator who
> will appreciate any business you can provide. In many, if not most
> cases, you can buy at a lower price, and help keep that gliderport
> open so many glider pilots will have a place to fly in the future.
>
> Anyway, The ZAON device is simply a great device. Everyone we have
> loaned it to has purchased one. Simple, relatively cheap and it does
> exactly what is advertised.
>
> Tom Knauff
> Knauff & Grove Soaring Supplies
> Ridge Soaring Gliderport

[Tim Mara]

I've sold dozens of these already and had the same responses from almost all
users....
IMHO this is the answer we should be looking for rather than adding
transponders to gliders.
We have an FAA exemption from requiring transponders in all gliders based on
our "inability" to properly power the additional load transponders require
and an exemption based on the )fact) that we don't normally fly in congested
airspace and in IFR enjoinments....having said that, the FAA is acutely
aware that there is a growing number or transponder equipped gliders, many
of which can routinely be found running down the airways and flying near
military and commercial airliners. I continually hear that "we have to fly
though this heavy traffic area, this is just where we nee to go to get to
the best soaring" or similar comments....the truth of the matter is, as long
as we have this attitude eventually this will not be an option and this
airspace will be closed to all gliders or all gliders will be required to
have an maintain transponders, communicate with appropriate ATC and get
permission to enter into the shrinking airspace we have come to know and
open.
Keeping in mind that a transponder is only truly effective when fully
operational and when the pilot is in contact with ATC (and not chatting on
123.3), that still most of the aircraft you are likely to encounter may also
not be in contact with ATC and will also not have sophisticated TCAS systems
(ever see a C-172 with TCAS?) so your transponder is doing nothing to help
avoid conflict.
The TPAS or MRX system does give you a heads up and a general location for
traffic in question,,more sophisticated TPAS systems can also narrow this
down to range relative altitudes and relative bearing much like a TCAS
system might warn larger aircraft of your position. The MRX is CHEAP...just
over $400 here, simple and completely portable.it may be an excellent answer
to many and may help to allow us to soar more freely for more seasons...
please see : http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page4.htm
respectfully
Tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"noel56z" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> After reading of the recent mid-air out West I bought a Zaon MRX PCAS
> (Portable Collision Avoidance System) from Aircraft Spruce &
> Speciality to try out. I also fly a Piper Vagabond without an
> electrical system and this unit doesn't require your aircraft have a
> mode C transponder as it's a passive system using the Mode C readout
> from another airplane. The unit has a build in electronic altimeter
> which compares the Mode C readout of the "target" a/c and gives you a
> "relative" altitude difference and approxiamate range. I used it
> locally on the ground and observed the readout of a Piper Cherokee
> on downwind at the local airport..turn base and
> final........amazing!!! Although this unit doesn't give you a bearing
> to the target it does give you the altitude and range which sure gives
> you some warning. They have a web site http:zaonflight.com which has
> an online manual, etc.
>
> Noel Anderson
> Schweizer 1-26E
>

[Brian Bange]

Huh???
If you don't think we should be in the airspace with a transponder, then
why would it matter if it was closed to us? I don't get your logic.

What do you think will happen to us when an airliner hits a glider and it
brings the airliner down?

I just visited ATC last week and looked at what they see of non-transponder
equipped aircraft. It is a little + mark. They ignore them. They can't tell
if it is ground clutter, birds, a mylar balloon etc., so it just plain does
not exist to them.

A transponder equipped glider squawking 1200 will have approaching aircraft
advised of it's presence, even with the glider pilot on 123.3. TCAS in any
fast mover will also alert them of the gliders presence. So with a
transponder, you get 2 chances to be seen. You still have the 182's to
worry about, and that is where the Zaon is a handy device, but it's foolish
to think that you'll be able to maneuver out of the way of a fast mover
with a 20 second alert from the Zaon. It will take you that long to make
the turn and locate them. You'll have just enough time to see your immanent
demise.

Brian Bange

having said that, the FAA is acutely aware that there is a growing number
or transponder equipped gliders, many of which can routinely be found
running down the airways and flying near
military and commercial airliners. I continually hear that "we have to fly
though this heavy traffic area, this is just where we need to go to get to
the best soaring" or similar comments....the truth of the matter is, as
long as we have this attitude eventually this will not be an option and this
airspace will be closed to all gliders or all gliders will be required to
have an maintain transponders, communicate with appropriate ATC and get
permission to enter into the shrinking airspace we have come to know and open.

[Michael R]

Sporty's is a gliding related business:

http://www.flyeca.com/eca/page.aspx?id=22





"flying_monkey" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> OK, gotta jump in here. It's my opinion that if anyone who has any
> interest in soaring (for example, someone reading this group) is
> buying something even remotely soaring related, it's a crime not to
> buy it from one of the operators like Tom, or Richard or Paul or Tim
> or ... (insert here your soaring supplier of choice, sorry if I missed
> anybody). The way you keep gliderports and gliding-related businesses
> in business is to buy stuff from them. They do a lot for us. If it
> weren't for the commercial operators, where would we fly? Who would
> tow us? I routinely plan to pay as much as a 5% or 10% premium if I
> have to, just to help them out.
>
> This is just the Walmart/Home Depot problem on a smaller scale. It's
> probably impossible to beat these big box stores, but if you want to
> keep your hometown hardware store in business, (and you would want to,
> unless they're really bad price gougers) buy from them whenever you
> want something that they have.
>
> Now, I understand wanting to be in the Sporty's sweepstakes, but you
> can solve that by buying a chart from them. If you want a Zaon, buy
> it from one of the above. Now, I think it's fair to shop for price
> between them if you want, but unless it's unavoidable keep it between
> them. If you have a long-term relationship with one, maybe one who's
> done you favors before just because they're nice guys, make it up by
> buying stuff from them, without arguing the price.
>
> Ed
>
>>
>> Items like these can often be purchased from a glider operator who
>> will appreciate any business you can provide. In many, if not most
>> cases, you can buy at a lower price, and help keep that gliderport
>> open so many glider pilots will have a place to fly in the future.
>>
>> Anyway, The ZAON device is simply a great device. Everyone we have
>> loaned it to has purchased one. Simple, relatively cheap and it does
>> exactly what is advertised.
>>
>> Tom Knauff
>> Knauff & Grove Soaring Supplies
>> Ridge Soaring Gliderport
>
>

[Eric Greenwell]

Tim Mara wrote:

> We have an FAA exemption from requiring transponders in all gliders based on
> our "inability" to properly power the additional load transponders require
> and an exemption based on the )fact) that we don't normally fly in congested
> airspace and in IFR enjoinments....having said that, the FAA is acutely
> aware that there is a growing number or transponder equipped gliders, many
> of which can routinely be found running down the airways and flying near
> military and commercial airliners.

Which gliders did even before they carried transponders - VFR airspace
is where we fly. I'm told by SSA members that routinely talk to the FAA
on airspace matters that the FAA is indeed "acutely aware" that more and
more gliders are carrying transponders, and the FAA is very pleased
about this!

> I continually hear that "we have to fly
> though this heavy traffic area, this is just where we need to go to get to
> the best soaring" or similar comments....the truth of the matter is, as long
> as we have this attitude

Are these pilots flying in airspace legally? If so, and they have
equipped their glider with a transponder to make their flight even
safer, that seems like a great attitude.

I'm not sure I really understand the rest of what Tim was suggesting,
but I agree the MRX or similar unit is an excellent way to start. It
will still be useful, even it you later decide a transponder is
worthwhile. It may even persuade you to get a transponder, if you
discover (as a few pilots have) that you are not seeing all the traffic,
even after it's alerted you to the traffic.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Ramy]

If everyone would follow this logic that MRX is a better solution than
transponder then we would have no use for MRX...
IMHO we need both. An added benefit is that your MRX will also detect
other transponder equiped gliders, especially important in glider
congested areas such as along ridges. You can even detect other
gliders climbing in thermals nearby as well as compare your thermaling
skills using the altitude and climb indicator...
Speaking of the MRX, does anyone else experience a constant "ghost"
target at the same altitude and within 1 mile range after some time?
According to Zaon this is as a result of the MRX detecting your own
transponder, which indicates a transponder issue.

Ramy

On Mar 7, 8:56 am, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
> I've sold dozens of these already and had the same responses from almost all
> users....
> IMHO this is the answer we should be looking for rather than adding
> transponders to gliders.
> We have an FAA exemption from requiring transponders in all gliders based on
> our "inability" to properly power the additional load transponders require
> and an exemption based on the )fact) that we don't normally fly in congested
> airspace and in IFR enjoinments....having said that, the FAA is acutely
> aware that there is a growing number or transponder equipped gliders, many
> of which can routinely be found running down the airways and flying near
> military and commercial airliners. I continually hear that "we have to fly
> though this heavy traffic area, this is just where we nee to go to get to
> the best soaring" or similar comments....the truth of the matter is, as long
> as we have this attitude eventually this will not be an option and this
> airspace will be closed to all gliders or all gliders will be required to
> have an maintain transponders, communicate with appropriate ATC and get
> permission to enter into the shrinking airspace we have come to know and
> open.
> Keeping in mind that a transponder is only truly effective when fully
> operational and when the pilot is in contact with ATC (and not chatting on
> 123.3), that still most of the aircraft you are likely to encounter may also
> not be in contact with ATC and will also not have sophisticated TCAS systems
> (ever see a C-172 with TCAS?) so your transponder is doing nothing to help
> avoid conflict.
> The TPAS or MRX system does give you a heads up and a general location for
> traffic in question,,more sophisticated TPAS systems can also narrow this
> down to range relative altitudes and relative bearing much like a TCAS
> system might warn larger aircraft of your position. The MRX is CHEAP...just
> over $400 here, simple and completely portable.it may be an excellent answer
> to many and may help to allow us to soar more freely for more seasons...
> please see :http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page4.htm
> respectfully
> Tim
> Please visit the Wings & Wheels website atwww.wingsandwheels.com
>
> "noel56z" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
> > After reading of the recent mid-air out West I bought a Zaon MRX PCAS
> > (Portable Collision Avoidance System) from Aircraft Spruce &
> > Speciality to try out. I also fly a Piper Vagabond without an
> > electrical system and this unit doesn't require your aircraft have a
> > mode C transponder as it's a passive system using the Mode C readout
> > from another airplane. The unit has a build in electronic altimeter
> > which compares the Mode C readout of the "target" a/c and gives you a
> > "relative" altitude difference and approxiamate range. I used it
> > locally on the ground and observed the readout of a Piper Cherokee
> > on downwind at the local airport..turn base and
> > final........amazing!!! Although this unit doesn't give you a bearing
> > to the target it does give you the altitude and range which sure gives
> > you some warning. They have a web site http:zaonflight.com which has
> > an online manual, etc.
>
> > Noel Anderson
> > Schweizer 1-26E- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Tim Mara]

"Brian Bange" > wrote in message
...
> Huh???
> If you don't think we should be in the airspace with a transponder, then
> why would it matter if it was closed to us? I don't get your logic.

"If we continue to fly in these heavy traffic areas, even with a
transponder, but do not stay in communications with ATC it's hardly better
than being there without a transponder.
If we continue to have near iss situations or, worse, hits we won't have to
make the choice, it will be made for us.
We just had a glider and jet collide in this same situation.....the
transponder was reported to be turned off...this is the same situation and
same logic we hear all along. "I only want the transponder turned on when I
am near heavy traffic areas"

>
> What do you think will happen to us when an airliner hits a glider and it
> brings the airliner down?

just as I mentioned...we won't have the ability to choose if or where we
want to fly...
The non-soaring public isnt going to listed to some small group of rich
glider pilots with their expensive toys out there making it unsafe for their
kids to fly home from college, Politicians will go where the votes and
voters are, for more federal control. Just look at the politicians responses
in NY and Illinoise after these and similar incidents.


> I just visited ATC last week and looked at what they see of
> non-transponder
> equipped aircraft. It is a little + mark. They ignore them. They can't
> tell
> if it is ground clutter, birds, a mylar balloon etc., so it just plain
> does
> not exist to them.

and also they are not required to advise VFR traffic of other targets or at
best on a "workload permitting basis" and they can do this only if they
have communication with the traffic...
So as we blunde around making our circles in the approach path or airways we
can expect ATC to reroute the airliners and other traffic as we go happily
along . It won't take much more to convince the airlines there is a menace
out there causing them delays and costing them fuel..
The simple ingredience are there to work against us....all of us.

>
> A transponder equipped glider squawking 1200 will have approaching
> aircraft
> advised of it's presence, even with the glider pilot on 123.3. TCAS in any
> fast mover will also alert them of the gliders presence. So with a
> transponder, you get 2 chances to be seen. You still have the 182's to
> worry about, and that is where the Zaon is a handy device, but it's
> foolish
> to think that you'll be able to maneuver out of the way of a fast mover
> with a 20 second alert from the Zaon. It will take you that long to make
> the turn and locate them. You'll have just enough time to see your
> immanent
> demise.

Or....have no warning except the collision...? Your chance of running into
or being run into by fast movers is increased by simpy being in the wrong
place
tim


>
> Brian Bange
>
> having said that, the FAA is acutely aware that there is a growing number
> or transponder equipped gliders, many of which can routinely be found
> running down the airways and flying near
> military and commercial airliners. I continually hear that "we have to fly
> though this heavy traffic area, this is just where we need to go to get to
> the best soaring" or similar comments....the truth of the matter is, as
> long as we have this attitude eventually this will not be an option and
> this
> airspace will be closed to all gliders or all gliders will be required to
> have an maintain transponders, communicate with appropriate ATC and get
> permission to enter into the shrinking airspace we have come to know and
> open.
>
>
>
>

[Ramy]

Tim, this is simply not correct. It is the other way around. Our club
recently invited a controller from norcal approach to talk on this
very subject, and he confirmed they vector traffic arround any mode c
target they have, regardless if they have radio contact. The radio
communication only makes their job easier, but they very much prefer
you would fly with transponder than without one even if you don't talk
to them. Of course, if you enter class B,C, or D airspace you must be
in radio contact.

Ramy


On Mar 7, 11:52 am, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
> "If we continue to fly in these heavy traffic areas, even with a
> transponder, but do not stay in communications with ATC it's hardly better
> than being there without a transponder.

[Tony Verhulst]

Michael R wrote:
> Sporty's is a gliding related business:
>
> http://www.flyeca.com/eca/page.aspx?id=22

By having a motor glider (operated by another company) parked in front
of their hangar?

Tony V.

[JS]

A question for someone with transponder and PCAS experience:
How do the collision avoidance systems respond to transponder
equipped gliders in a gaggle, or transponder equipped tow planes?

I only have experience with 2 installations in gliders:
1. Transponder equipped, no collision avoidance system.
2. FLARM.

Searching for the next installation, hoping it can consume little
power, integrate with power traffic, and behave as well as the FLARM.
Jim

[bumper]

JS,

I've been flying with transponder and TPAS for over 5 years, some of that
buddy flying with transponder equipped gliders.

When close to other transponder equipped gliders, the TPAS essentially goes
deaf. If both gliders are being interrogated by ATC or TCAS at very nearly
the same time, the nearby glider's transponder reply will occur while your
transponder replying as well. Your transponder blanks the TPAS receiver
during this period.

bumper

"JS" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>A question for someone with transponder and PCAS experience:
> How do the collision avoidance systems respond to transponder
> equipped gliders in a gaggle, or transponder equipped tow planes?
>
> I only have experience with 2 installations in gliders:
> 1. Transponder equipped, no collision avoidance system.
> 2. FLARM.
>
> Searching for the next installation, hoping it can consume little
> power, integrate with power traffic, and behave as well as the FLARM.
> Jim
>

[[email protected]]

On Mar 7, 12:52 pm, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
> "Brian Bange" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Huh???
> > If you don't think we should be in the airspace with a transponder, then
> > why would it matter if it was closed to us? I don't get your logic.
>
> "If we continue to fly in these heavy traffic areas, even with a
> transponder, but do not stay in communications with ATC it's hardly better
> than being there without a transponder.
> If we continue to have near iss situations or, worse, hits we won't have to
> make the choice, it will be made for us.
> We just had a glider and jet collide in this same situation.....the
> transponder was reported to be turned off...this is the same situation and
> same logic we hear all along. "I only want the transponder turned on when I
> am near heavy traffic areas"
>
>
>
> > What do you think will happen to us when an airliner hits a glider and it
> > brings the airliner down?
>
> just as I mentioned...we won't have the ability to choose if or where we
> want to fly...
> The non-soaring public isnt going to listed to some small group of rich
> glider pilots with their expensive toys out there making it unsafe for their
> kids to fly home from college, Politicians will go where the votes and
> voters are, for more federal control. Just look at the politicians responses
> in NY and Illinoise after these and similar incidents.
>
> > I just visited ATC last week and looked at what they see of
> > non-transponder
> > equipped aircraft. It is a little + mark. They ignore them. They can't
> > tell
> > if it is ground clutter, birds, a mylar balloon etc., so it just plain
> > does
> > not exist to them.
>
> and also they are not required to advise VFR traffic of other targets or at
> best on a "workload permitting basis" and they can do this only if they
> have communication with the traffic...
> So as we blunde around making our circles in the approach path or airways we
> can expect ATC to reroute the airliners and other traffic as we go happily
> along . It won't take much more to convince the airlines there is a menace
> out there causing them delays and costing them fuel..
> The simple ingredience are there to work against us....all of us.
>
>
>
> > A transponder equipped glider squawking 1200 will have approaching
> > aircraft
> > advised of it's presence, even with the glider pilot on 123.3. TCAS in any
> > fast mover will also alert them of the gliders presence. So with a
> > transponder, you get 2 chances to be seen. You still have the 182's to
> > worry about, and that is where the Zaon is a handy device, but it's
> > foolish
> > to think that you'll be able to maneuver out of the way of a fast mover
> > with a 20 second alert from the Zaon. It will take you that long to make
> > the turn and locate them. You'll have just enough time to see your
> > immanent
> > demise.
>
> Or....have no warning except the collision...? Your chance of running into
> or being run into by fast movers is increased by simpy being in the wrong
> place
> tim
>
>
>
>
>
> > Brian Bange
>
> > having said that, the FAA is acutely aware that there is a growing number
> > or transponder equipped gliders, many of which can routinely be found
> > running down the airways and flying near
> > military and commercial airliners. I continually hear that "we have to fly
> > though this heavy traffic area, this is just where we need to go to get to
> > the best soaring" or similar comments....the truth of the matter is, as
> > long as we have this attitude eventually this will not be an option and
> > this
> > airspace will be closed to all gliders or all gliders will be required to
> > have an maintain transponders, communicate with appropriate ATC and get
> > permission to enter into the shrinking airspace we have come to know and
> > open.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Tim,
I respectfully disagree with some of what you said. I have purchased
both a transponder (and all the costly goodies to complete the
installation) and a pcas from you in the effort to try to be safe. I
fly out of Cedar Valley, Utah which is 20 miles south of SLC
international, under Class B airspace and their approach and departure
is right over us at between 6,000 and 12,000 agl. On most days in the
summer we can easily get to 13,000 agl over the airport so we are
right in the line of fire which is not too comfortable.

If I follow your advice Tim I should not fly out of this airport at
all? If I can't fly there I don't have any other reasonable options
because the other airports that have glider operations in SLC are also
in the same situation. To follow what I think you are saying we all
should stop flying near Salt Lake City and only fly at other glider
ports not near this busy airspace? There is none within a 3 hour
drive. I am not trying to put words in your mouth Tim but what you
seem to be suggesting is that for the good of the sport and rights of
other soaring pilots to have unrestricted airspace the 100+ soaring
pilots in Utah should stop flying because we are near a major Class B
area and are too visible to the Feds? I am sure that must not be what
you are saying. So what are you saying is the solution for people in
our situation?

To see what a shame it would be if we all decided it was too dangerous
to fly around Salt Lake City check out some pics and videos of some
flights around there by going to http://phoebus.vassel.com

So, if we don't stop soaring in Utah I think the safest next best
thing is to fly with a parachute AND a transponder AND a pcas AND talk
to ATC AND keep our heads out the windows AND try to get away from the
busy areas as soon as possible on our flights. If anyone can suggest
how to do this even safer please speak up!!!

Tim, I understand the point you are trying to make but maybe the
ramifications were not fully considered. I need to buy some more
stuff from you so talk to you soon. ;)

Bruno

[JS]

On Mar 8, 9:06 am, "bumper" > wrote:

> When close to other transponder equipped gliders, the TPAS essentially goes
> deaf. If both gliders are being interrogated by ATC or TCAS at very nearly
> the same time, the nearby glider's transponder reply will occur while your
> transponder replying as well. Your transponder blanks the TPAS receiver
> during this period.
>
> bumper

Allo, John.
Interesting.
This implies that the transponder-based collision avoidance system
in a transponder equipped aircraft is of little use when close to
another transponder equipped aircraft. A bit counterproductive,
perhaps?
What relative distance does this blanking occur below?
Jim

[Michael R]

I guess you think that Chevrolet and GM are different companies too, huh?



"Tony Verhulst" > wrote in message
...
> Michael R wrote:
>> Sporty's is a gliding related business:
>>
>> http://www.flyeca.com/eca/page.aspx?id=22
>
> By having a motor glider (operated by another company) parked in front of
> their hangar?
>
> Tony V.

[Eric Greenwell]

JS wrote:
> On Mar 8, 9:06 am, "bumper" > wrote:
>
>> When close to other transponder equipped gliders, the TPAS essentially goes
>> deaf. If both gliders are being interrogated by ATC or TCAS at very nearly
>> the same time, the nearby glider's transponder reply will occur while your
>> transponder replying as well. Your transponder blanks the TPAS receiver
>> during this period.
>>
>> bumper
>
> Allo, John.
> Interesting.
> This implies that the transponder-based collision avoidance system
> in a transponder equipped aircraft is of little use when close to
> another transponder equipped aircraft. A bit counterproductive,
> perhaps?
> What relative distance does this blanking occur below?

My MRX manual doesn't directly answer this question, but my reading is
you have range down to at least 0.4 nm, which is 2400'. It's been giving
you advisories and alerts from 5 nm, so you should have spotted the
threat by the time it's that close.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[KM]

On Mar 7, 12:52 pm, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
>> "If we continue to fly in these heavy traffic areas, even with a
> transponder, but do not stay in communications with ATC it's hardly better
> than being there without a transponder.

Tim, this theme is repeated in both of your posts.I think it is based
on some faulty logic.Some of us have to live and fly in these heavy
traffic areas.You dont have to be in contact with anyone for TCAS to
work.Besides, what is to stop a safety conscious pilot from looking up
the STAR,s and DP,s for a peticular terminal area and just avoiding
those routes ?

> We just had a glider and jet collide in this same situation.....the
> transponder was reported to be turned off...this is the same situation and
> same logic we hear all along. "I only want the transponder turned on when I
> am near heavy traffic areas"

Where did you read this?I have read a few reports on this accident in
both soaring and some of the commercial aviation mags, and I never
read of any interviews with the sailplane pilot and this comment.Could
you pass along the reference?

>
> > What do you think will happen to us when an airliner hits a glider and it
> > brings the airliner down?
>
> The non-soaring public isnt going to listed to some small group of rich
> glider pilots with their expensive toys out there making it unsafe for their
> kids to fly home from college, Politicians will go where the votes and
> voters are, for more federal control. Just look at the politicians responses
> in NY and Illinoise after these and similar incidents.
>
>
> and also they are not required to advise VFR traffic of other targets or at
> best on a "workload permitting basis" and they can do this only if they
> have communication with the traffic...

Tim, they dont need to have communication with both targets to do
this.Besides, the TCAS equiped airliners dont need ATC to advise them
of traffic.

> So as we blunde around making our circles in the approach path or airways we
> can expect ATC to reroute the airliners and other traffic as we go happily
> along . It won't take much more to convince the airlines there is a menace
> out there causing them delays and costing them fuel..

Why are you predicting failure Tim.I want to reiterate my earlier
comment that there is nothing stopping sailplane pilots from looking
up the arival and departure routes and staying clear.When I was doing
alot of teaching with the CAP we had this well marked out on class B
charts that were available to everyone at the gliderport.It would be
nice to go soaring in the middle of nowhere, but hardly practicle.
I also think you are way over estimating our impact on the
airlines.Contrary to your post and several general aviation magazine
editorials, in 19 years of airline flying I have never heard even a
comment from airline managment about general aviation traffic
impacting our operations.
K Urban

[chipsoars]

On Mar 8, 11:03 pm, "KM" > wrote:
> On Mar 7, 12:52 pm, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
>
> >> "If we continue to fly in these heavy traffic areas, even with a
> > transponder, but do not stay in communications with ATC it's hardly better
> > than being there without a transponder.
>
> Tim, this theme is repeated in both of your posts.I think it is based
> on some faulty logic.Some of us have to live and fly in these heavy
> traffic areas.You dont have to be in contact with anyone for TCAS to
> work.Besides, what is to stop a safety conscious pilot from looking up
> the STAR,s and DP,s for a peticular terminal area and just avoiding
> those routes ?
>
> > We just had a glider and jet collide in this same situation.....the
> > transponder was reported to be turned off...this is the same situation and
> > same logic we hear all along. "I only want the transponder turned on when I
> > am near heavy traffic areas"
>
> Where did you read this?I have read a few reports on this accident in
> both soaring and some of the commercial aviation mags, and I never
> read of any interviews with the sailplane pilot and this comment.Could
> you pass along the reference?
>
>
>
> > > What do you think will happen to us when an airliner hits a glider and it
> > > brings the airliner down?
>
> > The non-soaring public isnt going to listed to some small group of rich
> > glider pilots with their expensive toys out there making it unsafe for their
> > kids to fly home from college, Politicians will go where the votes and
> > voters are, for more federal control. Just look at the politicians responses
> > in NY and Illinoise after these and similar incidents.
>
> > and also they are not required to advise VFR traffic of other targets or at
> > best on a "workload permitting basis" and they can do this only if they
> > have communication with the traffic...
>
> Tim, they dont need to have communication with both targets to do
> this.Besides, the TCAS equiped airliners dont need ATC to advise them
> of traffic.
>
> > So as we blunde around making our circles in the approach path or airways we
> > can expect ATC to reroute the airliners and other traffic as we go happily
> > along . It won't take much more to convince the airlines there is a menace
> > out there causing them delays and costing them fuel..
>
> Why are you predicting failure Tim.I want to reiterate my earlier
> comment that there is nothing stopping sailplane pilots from looking
> up the arival and departure routes and staying clear.When I was doing
> alot of teaching with the CAP we had this well marked out on class B
> charts that were available to everyone at the gliderport.It would be
> nice to go soaring in the middle of nowhere, but hardly practicle.
> I also think you are way over estimating our impact on the
> airlines.Contrary to your post and several general aviation magazine
> editorials, in 19 years of airline flying I have never heard even a
> comment from airline managment about general aviation traffic
> impacting our operations.
> K Urban

according to the NTSB report, the interview with the pilot established
that the transponder was not on:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=LAX06FA277B&rpt=p

[Tony Verhulst]

>>> Michael R wrote:
>>> Sporty's is a gliding related business:

>> "Tony Verhulst" > wrote in message
>> By having a motor glider (operated by another company) parked in front of
>> their hangar?

> Michael R wrote:
> I guess you think that Chevrolet and GM are different companies
> too, huh?

LOL, no, GM themselves makes it clear that they are the same company.
From http://www.sportys.com/press/bio.html
"Eastern Cincinnati Aviation (ECA), Sporty's closely affiliated fixed
base operator, was founded in 1988 to provide flight instruction, rental
aircraft, service and fuel sales for Clermont County/Sporty's Airport.
ECA also operates, maintains and manages all airport operations on
behalf of Clermont County. Avionics installation and repairs are also
available on the airport through a division of ECA, Cincinnati Avionics."

But, this is beside the point. Even if Sporty's has a financial interest
in ECA. Sporty's would not live or die, let alone notice, if the ECA
glider program folded. The same can not be said for Tom Knauff or Tim
Mara. Lastly, Smith & Wesson makes some *really* nice scissors but I
wouldn't exactly call them a scissors company.

Please support your glider companies.

peace,

Tony V.

[Eric Greenwell]

JS wrote:
> On Mar 8, 9:06 am, "bumper" > wrote:
>
>> When close to other transponder equipped gliders, the TPAS essentially goes
>> deaf. If both gliders are being interrogated by ATC or TCAS at very nearly
>> the same time, the nearby glider's transponder reply will occur while your
>> transponder replying as well. Your transponder blanks the TPAS receiver
>> during this period.
>>
>> bumper
>
> Allo, John.
> Interesting.
> This implies that the transponder-based collision avoidance system
> in a transponder equipped aircraft is of little use when close to
> another transponder equipped aircraft. A bit counterproductive,
> perhaps?
> What relative distance does this blanking occur below?
> Jim

I contacted Zaon, asking for the closest distance an MRX could detect
another transponder. Zaon replied that in flight the closest range the
MRX can detect is about 200-300 feet.

Since it can display only in 0.1 nm (600 feet) increments, that's
plenty close enough! We all hope we've seen the other aircraft way
before the range indication reads 0.0, don't we?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org