Pilot Suicides

[C J Campbell]

Student pilot Eric Johnson kills himself and his eight-year-old daughter by
slamming a plane into his former mother-in-law's house. The Indiana Star
notes that as a student pilot he was not allowed to carry passengers...
Apparently he practiced a few touch and goes before killing himself.

This seems to be getting to be a regular deal. Embry-Riddle instructors
killing themselves on the runway, other divorced pilots deliberately crashing
into houses, people jumping out of airplanes on final and landing on power
lines so that their severed torsos splat a few feet away from small children.

Ah yes. Suicide is such a beautiful, noble thing, according to some people.
This is a trend I would really like to see stop.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Jay Beckman]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
e.com...
> Student pilot Eric Johnson kills himself and his eight-year-old daughter
> by
> slamming a plane into his former mother-in-law's house. The Indiana Star
> notes that as a student pilot he was not allowed to carry passengers...
> Apparently he practiced a few touch and goes before killing himself.
>
> This seems to be getting to be a regular deal. Embry-Riddle instructors
> killing themselves on the runway, other divorced pilots deliberately
> crashing
> into houses, people jumping out of airplanes on final and landing on power
> lines so that their severed torsos splat a few feet away from small
> children.
>
> Ah yes. Suicide is such a beautiful, noble thing, according to some
> people.
> This is a trend I would really like to see stop.
>
> --
> Waddling Eagle
> World Famous Flight Instructor
>

Step One: Eliminate all personal relationships where anyone could ever have
the possibility of getting their heart broken...

Next...

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Gene Seibel]

On Mar 7, 11:20 am, C J Campbell
> wrote:
> Student pilot Eric Johnson kills himself and his eight-year-old daughter by
> slamming a plane into his former mother-in-law's house. The Indiana Star
> notes that as a student pilot he was not allowed to carry passengers...
> Apparently he practiced a few touch and goes before killing himself.
>
> This seems to be getting to be a regular deal. Embry-Riddle instructors
> killing themselves on the runway, other divorced pilots deliberately crashing
> into houses, people jumping out of airplanes on final and landing on power
> lines so that their severed torsos splat a few feet away from small children.
>
> Ah yes. Suicide is such a beautiful, noble thing, according to some people.
> This is a trend I would really like to see stop.
>
> --
> Waddling Eagle
> World Famous Flight Instructor

[Christopher Brian Colohan]

"Jay Beckman" > writes:
> Step One: Eliminate all personal relationships where anyone could ever have
> the possibility of getting their heart broken...

Step Two: change the rules so a pilot can seek professional help for
depression without fear of instantly losing their medical.

Chris

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 7, 9:20 am, C J Campbell
> wrote:
> Student pilot Eric Johnson kills himself and his eight-year-old daughter by
> slamming a plane into his former mother-in-law's house. The Indiana Star
> notes that as a student pilot he was not allowed to carry passengers...
> Apparently he practiced a few touch and goes before killing himself.
>
> This seems to be getting to be a regular deal. Embry-Riddle instructors
> killing themselves on the runway, other divorced pilots deliberately crashing
> into houses, people jumping out of airplanes on final and landing on power
> lines so that their severed torsos splat a few feet away from small children.
>
> Ah yes. Suicide is such a beautiful, noble thing, according to some people.
> This is a trend I would really like to see stop.

Surprising that the FBO rented the plane to a student pilot with his
daughter.

-Robert

[Mxsmanic]

C J Campbell writes:

> This seems to be getting to be a regular deal. Embry-Riddle instructors
> killing themselves on the runway, other divorced pilots deliberately crashing
> into houses, people jumping out of airplanes on final and landing on power
> lines so that their severed torsos splat a few feet away from small children.
>
> Ah yes. Suicide is such a beautiful, noble thing, according to some people.
> This is a trend I would really like to see stop.

Add a psychological evaluation to the medical. The FAA spends too much time
worrying about highly unlikely events such as pilots stroking out at the yoke,
and not enough worrying about other things, such as pilots who are psychos.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Deadstick]

On Mar 7, 11:20 am, C J Campbell
> wrote:
> Student pilot Eric Johnson kills himself and his eight-year-old daughter by
> slamming a plane into his former mother-in-law's house. The Indiana Star
> notes that as a student pilot he was not allowed to carry passengers...
> Apparently he practiced a few touch and goes before killing himself.
>
> This seems to be getting to be a regular deal. Embry-Riddle instructors
> killing themselves on the runway, other divorced pilots deliberately crashing
> into houses, people jumping out of airplanes on final and landing on power
> lines so that their severed torsos splat a few feet away from small children.
>
> Ah yes. Suicide is such a beautiful, noble thing, according to some people.
> This is a trend I would really like to see stop.
>
> --
> Waddling Eagle
> World Famous Flight Instructor


FBO owners should be held more directly responsible for who they rent
aircraft to. I think we will find that the aircraft dispatch
procedures were NOT adequate. Proper dispatch procedures might have
prevented this particular tragedy.

Unfortunately, the insurance company will end up paying for the FBOs
negligence and nobody will have learned anything.

[Tom Conner]

"Deadstick" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Unfortunately, the insurance company will end up paying
> for the FBOs negligence and nobody will have learned anything.
>

When an FBO loses (crashes) a plane does their insurance go up like car
insurance does?

[GrtArtiste]

On Mar 7, 5:46 pm, "Deadstick" > wrote:

Proper dispatch procedures might have
> prevented this particular tragedy.

IMHO, Proper dispatch procedures might have prevented the destruction
of a rented airplane. The tragedy, no. Someone who is bent on self-
destruction like he was will find a way.

GrtArtiste

[RomeoMike]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

>
> Surprising that the FBO rented the plane to a student pilot with his
> daughter.
>
> -Robert
>

The Associated Press account I read stated that he had a PPL as of last
fall.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 7, 2:46 pm, "Deadstick" > wrote:
> On Mar 7, 11:20 am, C J Campbell
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > Student pilot Eric Johnson kills himself and his eight-year-old daughter by
> > slamming a plane into his former mother-in-law's house. The Indiana Star
> > notes that as a student pilot he was not allowed to carry passengers...
> > Apparently he practiced a few touch and goes before killing himself.
>
> > This seems to be getting to be a regular deal. Embry-Riddle instructors
> > killing themselves on the runway, other divorced pilots deliberately crashing
> > into houses, people jumping out of airplanes on final and landing on power
> > lines so that their severed torsos splat a few feet away from small children.
>
> > Ah yes. Suicide is such a beautiful, noble thing, according to some people.
> > This is a trend I would really like to see stop.
>
> > --
> > Waddling Eagle
> > World Famous Flight Instructor
>
> FBO owners should be held more directly responsible for who they rent
> aircraft to. I think we will find that the aircraft dispatch
> procedures were NOT adequate. Proper dispatch procedures might have
> prevented this particular tragedy.

Should all FBOs be required to hire people to work the desk 24x7? I
know some FBOs that assign card lock cards with a security code to
pilots. The computer doesn't know if a student pilot has someone
standing next to him.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 7, 2:57 pm, "Tom Conner" > wrote:
> "Deadstick" > wrote in message
>
> ps.com...
>
> > Unfortunately, the insurance company will end up paying
> > for the FBOs negligence and nobody will have learned anything.
>
> When an FBO loses (crashes) a plane does their insurance go up like car
> insurance does?

Yes, very much. There is a pretty big discount for zero claims. After
the first big claim the rate goes up a lot. At some point the
insurance gets dropped. For an FBO getting insurance is often the
biggest challenge. Its much harder to get than owner's policies.

-Robert

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On Mar 7, 2:46 pm, "Deadstick" > wrote:
> Should all FBOs be required to hire people to work the desk 24x7? I
> know some FBOs that assign card lock cards with a security code to
> pilots. The computer doesn't know if a student pilot has someone
> standing next to him.
>
> -Robert

True, but a student pilot should not have those security codes.
Crash Lander

[Peter R.]

On 3/7/2007 5:46:27 PM, "Deadstick" wrote:

> FBO owners should be held more directly responsible for who they rent
> aircraft to. I think we will find that the aircraft dispatch
> procedures were NOT adequate. Proper dispatch procedures might have
> prevented this particular tragedy.

How can you possibly conclude that? Did you actually witness the transaction?

You have no idea how the deranged father handled this situation. I could
conjure up a couple of scenarios where it appeared I was alone to rent the
aircraft, but then quickly pass a smaller child past a busy FBO counter to a
waiting aircraft.

--
Peter

[Sylvain]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Add a psychological evaluation to the medical.

NASA doesn't seem to be able to weed out potential nut
jobs, and the screening process for astronauts is way
more thorough (I would imagine) than anything that could
possibly be implemented with a once every two years (or
three) medical examination by your AME.

--Sylvain

[Jose]

> FBO owners should be held more directly responsible for who they rent
> aircraft to.

Be careful what you ask for. The consequence of this is FBOs (like at
Westchester) that won't rent to you if it's cloudy.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Tony]

For what it's worth, the AP did report that Eric Johnson got his
pilot's license the day his divorce became final, last October.

On Mar 7, 3:39 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Mar 7, 9:20 am, C J Campbell
>
> > wrote:
> > Student pilot Eric Johnson kills himself and his eight-year-old daughter by
> > slamming a plane into his former mother-in-law's house. The Indiana Star
> > notes that as a student pilot he was not allowed to carry passengers...
> > Apparently he practiced a few touch and goes before killing himself.
>
> > This seems to be getting to be a regular deal. Embry-Riddle instructors
> > killing themselves on the runway, other divorced pilots deliberately crashing
> > into houses, people jumping out of airplanes on final and landing on power
> > lines so that their severed torsos splat a few feet away from small children.
>
> > Ah yes. Suicide is such a beautiful, noble thing, according to some people.
> > This is a trend I would really like to see stop.
>
> Surprising that the FBO rented the plane to a student pilot with his
> daughter.
>
> -Robert

[Tony]

Opps -- don't trust the AP. Another report says

Johnson was not licensed to have passengers on board the plane unless
accompanied by an instructor, according to the Federal Aviation
Administration. The FAA's online records show Johnson had a student
pilot certificate as of Nov. 14, 2006

y" > wrote:
> For what it's worth, the AP did report that Eric Johnson got his
> pilot's license the day his divorce became final, last October.
>
> On Mar 7, 3:39 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 7, 9:20 am, C J Campbell
>
> > > wrote:
> > > Student pilot Eric Johnson kills himself and his eight-year-old daughter by
> > > slamming a plane into his former mother-in-law's house. The Indiana Star
> > > notes that as a student pilot he was not allowed to carry passengers...
> > > Apparently he practiced a few touch and goes before killing himself.
>
> > > This seems to be getting to be a regular deal. Embry-Riddle instructors
> > > killing themselves on the runway, other divorced pilots deliberately crashing
> > > into houses, people jumping out of airplanes on final and landing on power
> > > lines so that their severed torsos splat a few feet away from small children.
>
> > > Ah yes. Suicide is such a beautiful, noble thing, according to some people.
> > > This is a trend I would really like to see stop.
>
> > Surprising that the FBO rented the plane to a student pilot with his
> > daughter.
>
> > -Robert- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 7, 3:09 pm, "Crash Lander" > wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in glegroups.com...
>
> > On Mar 7, 2:46 pm, "Deadstick" > wrote:
> > Should all FBOs be required to hire people to work the desk 24x7? I
> > know some FBOs that assign card lock cards with a security code to
> > pilots. The computer doesn't know if a student pilot has someone
> > standing next to him.
>
> > -Robert
>
> True, but a student pilot should not have those security codes.

Why not? I've been assigning the codes to my students as soon as they
are soloed.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 7, 3:46 pm, "Tony" > wrote:
> For what it's worth, the AP did report that Eric Johnson got his
> pilot's license the day his divorce became final, last October.

Could have been "student pilots 'license'" though.

-Robert

[Stefan]

Deadstick schrieb:

> FBO owners should be held more directly responsible for who they rent
> aircraft to.

Yeah! Sue them *******s!

[Sylvain]

Tony wrote:
> For what it's worth, the AP did report that Eric Johnson got his
> pilot's license the day his divorce became final, last October.

two good news the same day, and the guy is still depressed?

--Sylvain

[Judah]

"Deadstick" > wrote in
ps.com:

> FBO owners should be held more directly responsible for who they rent
> aircraft to. I think we will find that the aircraft dispatch
> procedures were NOT adequate. Proper dispatch procedures might have
> prevented this particular tragedy.
>
> Unfortunately, the insurance company will end up paying for the FBOs
> negligence and nobody will have learned anything.


Bulls%^&*.

Are you Corey Lidle's wife?

How, exactly, does an FBO rental counter person determine in the 6 seconds it
takes to get the keys for the plane that the rental student is about to use
it to commit suicide?

Do you think he went into the FBO and announced it?

Perhaps we should sue McDonalds because if they would have given him hotter
coffee he would have killed himself using the coffee instead of the plane.


What a world.

[Judah]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in
ups.com:

> Surprising that the FBO rented the plane to a student pilot with his
> daughter.

Perhaps the daughter was not with him when he got the keys from the FBO
counter.

[Judah]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in
ups.com:

> Surprising that the FBO rented the plane to a student pilot with his
> daughter.

Or for that matter, perhaps they were under the impression he was going with
an instructor. I took my son on instruction flights several times when I was
a student, and as students we were often expected to pre-flight the plane
before the instructor got back from the prior lesson...

[Judah]

RomeoMike > wrote in news:arr3c4-7ok1.ln1
@news.infowest.com:

>
>
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>>
>> Surprising that the FBO rented the plane to a student pilot with his
>> daughter.
>>
>> -Robert
>>
>
> The Associated Press account I read stated that he had a PPL as of last
> fall.

From Landings.com database section:

Name : JOHNSON, ERIC ROSS
Airman's Address : 617 I ST
BEDFORD, IN, 47421-2331
FAA Region : Great Lakes
Date of Medical : Nov, 2006
Class of Medical : 3
Expiration of Class 3 : Nov, 2008
Airman Certificates : Student Pilot

The database has been known to be several months behind, if he got his
medical in 11/06, perhaps pre-solo, it's possible (although IMHO not
likely) that he finished his requirements and passed his practical within 4
months...

[Jake Brodsky]

Deadstick wrote:
> FBO owners should be held more directly responsible for who they rent
> aircraft to. I think we will find that the aircraft dispatch
> procedures were NOT adequate. Proper dispatch procedures might have
> prevented this particular tragedy.

Who would do this examination, and on what basis? Would you like a
psych evaluation every time you decided to rent an aircraft?

> Unfortunately, the insurance company will end up paying for the FBOs
> negligence and nobody will have learned anything.

I sympathize, but I have to wonder what there is to learn here.

The problem is that even if we made FBOs responsible for assessing the
renter's mental state, we still wouldn't know anything because the
people doing the assessing aren't qualified to make any such assessment.

I know most agree that we are our brother's (and sister's) keeper. And
in a perfect world, where understanding was easy to come by, I would
agree with you. But this is not a perfect world. Your idea of
institutionalizing this in to policy made by the courts is abhorrent to
most people.

Some accidents are simply impossible to prevent. You can't prevent a
person from leaping off of a tall bridge to their death. And likewise,
a pilot with suicidal tendencies can be very hard to identify. This is
the exception you're using to make policy. You need a real big spanking
with a clue bat.

Jake Brodsky

[RomeoMike]

RomeoMike wrote:
>
>
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>>
>> Surprising that the FBO rented the plane to a student pilot with his
>> daughter.
>>
>> -Robert
>>
>
> The Associated Press account I read stated that he had a PPL as of last
> fall.

AP probably wrong. The FAA Registry lists three people with names
similar to this guy in Indiana. One of the three was issued a student
certificate 11/06. This is probably the one. The other two don't fit.

[Jose]

> I know most agree that we are our brother's (and sister's) keeper.

I certainly don't agree. I am not in a zoo, with everyone else around
me being my "keeper". I would hope that were I to need assistance
people would come help me, but I would also hope that should I decide to
do something that somebody else doesn't think I should do, that they
would let me do it anyway.

That is what freedom is.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:24:38 -0800, Jose wrote
(in article >):

>> I know most agree that we are our brother's (and sister's) keeper.
>
> I certainly don't agree. I am not in a zoo, with everyone else around
> me being my "keeper". I would hope that were I to need assistance
> people would come help me, but I would also hope that should I decide to
> do something that somebody else doesn't think I should do, that they
> would let me do it anyway.
>
> That is what freedom is.
>

If I thought you were going to kill your 8 year old daughter I most certainly
would try to prevent it, no matter what your personal opinion of freedom was.

I might even try to prevent you from riding a bicycle without a helmet, if
for no other reason than that I am tired of having my tax and insurance
dollars going to support the paralyzed bozos who thought they had a right to
ride without one.


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[James Sleeman]

On Mar 8, 6:20 am, C J Campbell
> wrote:
> Ah yes. Suicide is such a beautiful, noble thing, according to some people.
> This is a trend I would really like to see stop.

You wouldn't let a friend get behind the wheel when they are lagered
up, would you.

It's not something that can be totally elminated, humans are
unpredictable creatures at the best of times, but we must all be
vigilant, not only think "am I safe to fly today", but also "is my
mate safe to fly". If a fellow pilot seems a bit off then tell them
that, if they seem really off then do what you have to if they are
determined to fly.

[Jose]

> If I thought you were going to kill your 8 year old daughter I most certainly
> would try to prevent it, no matter what your personal opinion of freedom was.
>
> I might even try to prevent you from riding a bicycle without a helmet, if
> for no other reason than that I am tired of having my tax and insurance
> dollars going to support the paralyzed bozos who thought they had a right to
> ride without one.

And that's how we end up in a nanny state. It starts with something
very reasonable, and then something less reasonable, and ends up with
all of us in cages.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Tim]

Is that what happened to you? You are a psycho so you only do ms flight
sim?

Mxsmanic wrote:
> C J Campbell writes:
>
>
>>This seems to be getting to be a regular deal. Embry-Riddle instructors
>>killing themselves on the runway, other divorced pilots deliberately crashing
>>into houses, people jumping out of airplanes on final and landing on power
>>lines so that their severed torsos splat a few feet away from small children.
>>
>>Ah yes. Suicide is such a beautiful, noble thing, according to some people.
>>This is a trend I would really like to see stop.
>
>
> Add a psychological evaluation to the medical. The FAA spends too much time
> worrying about highly unlikely events such as pilots stroking out at the yoke,
> and not enough worrying about other things, such as pilots who are psychos.
>

[Jim[_3_]]

RomeoMike wrote:
>
>
> RomeoMike wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Surprising that the FBO rented the plane to a student pilot with his
>>> daughter.
>>>
>>> -Robert
>>>
>>
>> The Associated Press account I read stated that he had a PPL as of
>> last fall.
>
>
> AP probably wrong. The FAA Registry lists three people with names
> similar to this guy in Indiana. One of the three was issued a student
> certificate 11/06. This is probably the one. The other two don't fit.


This happened at my home airport The guy only had 1 supervised solo

He was able to get the plane because he hid the girl and the FBO thought
he was waiting for the Instructor to show up for a lesson. Which he
did show up for a lesson but for another student he was already airborne

It has been customary for the student to get the keys and preflight the
plane before the Instructor shows up to save time

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 7, 6:39 pm, Jim > wrote:
> RomeoMike wrote:
>
> > RomeoMike wrote:
>
> >> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> >>> Surprising that the FBO rented the plane to a student pilot with his
> >>> daughter.
>
> >>> -Robert
>
> >> The Associated Press account I read stated that he had a PPL as of
> >> last fall.
>
> > AP probably wrong. The FAA Registry lists three people with names
> > similar to this guy in Indiana. One of the three was issued a student
> > certificate 11/06. This is probably the one. The other two don't fit.
>
> This happened at my home airport The guy only had 1 supervised solo
>
> He was able to get the plane because he hid the girl and the FBO thought
> he was waiting for the Instructor to show up for a lesson. Which he
> did show up for a lesson but for another student he was already airborne
>
> It has been customary for the student to get the keys and preflight the
> plane before the Instructor shows up to save time- Hide quoted text -

Its almost a requirement. You want your student to take his time with
his preflight. I've had students spend 30 minute doing preflight. I
don't want/need to stand a guard every student for 30 minutes watching
him preflight before every flight.

-Robert

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Its almost a requirement. You want your student to take his time with
> his preflight. I've had students spend 30 minute doing preflight. I
> don't want/need to stand a guard every student for 30 minutes watching
> him preflight before every flight.

If a student is going for a flight, with the instructor, and the student is
expected to pre-flight the a/c before the instructor gets there, whjat
happens if there is an incident, and it turns out to be due to something
that should have been picked up in the pre-flight? Surely, any instructor
that values his life, would at least do a brief pre-flight himself,
regardless of whether the student has already done one or not? if the a/c
crashes, it's the instructor who is responsible, because the instructor is
PIC when flying dual with a student.
Crash Lander
> -Robert
>

[Jose]

> Surely, any instructor
> that values his life, would at least do a brief pre-flight himself,
> regardless of whether the student has already done one or not?

Yes. But that doesn't mean that the student needs to be supervised
while he does his own preflight.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>> Surely, any instructor that values his life, would at least do a brief
>> pre-flight himself, regardless of whether the student has already done
>> one or not?
>
> Yes. But that doesn't mean that the student needs to be supervised while
> he does his own preflight.
>
> Jose

How then, does it 'save time' if the student does the pre-flight before the
instructor arrives, if the instructor is going to do it again anyway?
Crash Lander

[Jay Beckman]

"Crash Lander" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Its almost a requirement. You want your student to take his time with
>> his preflight. I've had students spend 30 minute doing preflight. I
>> don't want/need to stand a guard every student for 30 minutes watching
>> him preflight before every flight.
>
> If a student is going for a flight, with the instructor, and the student
> is expected to pre-flight the a/c before the instructor gets there, whjat
> happens if there is an incident, and it turns out to be due to something
> that should have been picked up in the pre-flight? Surely, any instructor
> that values his life, would at least do a brief pre-flight himself,
> regardless of whether the student has already done one or not? if the a/c
> crashes, it's the instructor who is responsible, because the instructor is
> PIC when flying dual with a student.
> Crash Lander

Mine always checked the oil, sticked the tanks (and double checked the fuel
caps..) and generally did a basic walk around *after* I'd preflighted. He
was certainly making sure I wasn't going to kill us both but under the guise
of education, he'd always "hey c'mere" me and we'd discuss pitch (while he
checked the elevator), roll (while he checked the ailerons), etc... He
didn't check every nut and bolt like I did (and still do) but he had a right
to protect his butt...

Jay B

[Jose]

> How then, does it 'save time' if the student does the pre-flight before the
> instructor arrives, if the instructor is going to do it again anyway?

The student's preflight is probably much slower. The instructor's
preflight probably concentrates on a few critical issues. The
instructor probably just flew that airplane a few hours ago. Not so the
student.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Crash Lander wrote:
> "Jose" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> Surely, any instructor that values his life, would at least do a brief
>>> pre-flight himself, regardless of whether the student has already done
>>> one or not?
>> Yes. But that doesn't mean that the student needs to be supervised while
>> he does his own preflight.
>>
>> Jose
>
> How then, does it 'save time' if the student does the pre-flight before the
> instructor arrives, if the instructor is going to do it again anyway?
> Crash Lander
>
>

Each instructor will have a preferred method for handling student
pre-flights based on personal experience. You want the student to
develop confidence, and allowing the student to do the pre-flight
naturally fits into that side of the learning curve. This however
doesn't release the instructor from the responsibility for the
pre-flight being done correctly.
I've seen instructors use just about every method one can think of for
handling pre-flights.
In all the years I was instructing, I never had a situation where my
student was sent out alone to preflight an airplane that the student was
scheduled in with me as the instructor. This doesn't mean I rode herd on
the student's pre-flight either. It means that the pre-flight was always
treated as part of the dual period. The student always did the
pre-flight with me simply watching. A good thorough pre-flight shouldn't
take all that long to perform if done correctly. It was always my
policy, especially if a Hobbs meter was involved, to schedule each
student with enough time the student to do the pre-flight normally as we
went out to the airplane together.
It's notable also, from an instructor's point of view, that seldom was
one of these pre-flights performed where absolutely no comment was
necessary between myself and the student involved. Point here is that
every moment of a dual session can and should be a learning experience
for a student.
I always made a point of placing the emphasis on the pre-flight with the
student, with comment from me only when appropriate. Using this method
proved over time to instill both confidence in the student as his/her
pre-flight skills increased to competent levels, and also serve as a
silently observed double check on the aircraft's condition by me that
satisfied safety requirements.


In my opinion, there should never be a situation for an instructor that
includes saving time as a factor in a pre-flight. If this is an issue,
students are being scheduled too closely together.

Dudley Henriques

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 20:17:56 -0800, Crash Lander wrote
(in article >):

> "Jose" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> Surely, any instructor that values his life, would at least do a brief
>>> pre-flight himself, regardless of whether the student has already done
>>> one or not?
>>
>> Yes. But that doesn't mean that the student needs to be supervised while
>> he does his own preflight.
>>
>> Jose
>
> How then, does it 'save time' if the student does the pre-flight before the
> instructor arrives, if the instructor is going to do it again anyway?
> Crash Lander
>
>

An instructor, who knows exactly what he is looking for and where to look for
it, can do a preflight in a fraction of the time that a student can.

If I have to stand over a student while he does the preflight, then I am
going to charge for my time.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Shirl]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote:
> Mine always checked the oil, sticked the tanks (and double checked the fuel
> caps..) and generally did a basic walk around *after* I'd preflighted. He
> was certainly making sure I wasn't going to kill us both but under the guise
> of education, he'd always "hey c'mere" me and we'd discuss pitch (while he
> checked the elevator), roll (while he checked the ailerons), etc... He
> didn't check every nut and bolt like I did (and still do) but he had a right
> to protect his butt...

I'm not sure if they were doing it then, Jay, but when I worked there,
the CFIs almost always added .2 or .3 (around 20 minutes) to the
instructor's time to cover the few minutes of "dual" preflighting and
post-flight debrief -- charged as "Ground". (My preflight still includes
every nut and bolt, too!)

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 7, 7:27 pm, "Crash Lander" > wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in oglegroups.com...

> If a student is going for a flight, with the instructor, and the student is
> expected to pre-flight the a/c before the instructor gets there, whjat
> happens if there is an incident, and it turns out to be due to something
> that should have been picked up in the pre-flight? Surely, any instructor
> that values his life, would at least do a brief pre-flight himself,
> regardless of whether the student has already done one or not? if the a/c
> crashes, it's the instructor who is responsible, because the instructor is
> PIC when flying dual with a student.

If I've been teaching in the plane all day I can preflight it again
for the next trip out in about 5 minutes. I don't want to force the
student to do the same. I'm not aware of any school that makes the CFI
stand around and watch every preflight (usually just the pre-solo and
pre-checkride preflights). I'm sure the result would be students
feeling very pressured to go quick, not something that is good.

[Stefan]

Crash Lander schrieb:
> If a student is going for a flight, with the instructor, and the student is
> expected to pre-flight the a/c before the instructor gets there, whjat
> happens if there is an incident, and it turns out to be due to something

The student, the instructor, the FBO, the airport manager and the
airplane manufactorer will get sued.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Stefan > wrote:

> > If a student is going for a flight, with the instructor, and the student is
> > expected to pre-flight the a/c before the instructor gets there, whjat
> > happens if there is an incident, and it turns out to be due to something
>
> The student, the instructor, the FBO, the airport manager and the
> airplane manufactorer will get sued.

Only people/estates with assets will get sued.

--
Bob Noel
(gave up looking for a particular sig the lawyer will)

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Crash Lander wrote:
> "Jose" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> Surely, any instructor that values his life, would at least do a
>>> brief pre-flight himself, regardless of whether the student has
>>> already done one or not?
>>
>> Yes. But that doesn't mean that the student needs to be supervised
>> while he does his own preflight.
>>
>> Jose
>
> How then, does it 'save time' if the student does the pre-flight
> before the instructor arrives, if the instructor is going to do it
> again anyway? Crash Lander

Becasue an instructor is capable of doing a preflight faster than a student.

[Peter R.]

On 3/7/2007 11:17:57 PM, "Crash Lander" wrote:

> How then, does it 'save time' if the student does the pre-flight before the
> instructor arrives, if the instructor is going to do it again anyway?

Instructor is going to check the "kill-me" items like fuel and oil quantity,
elevator and aileron bolts, etc...

--
Peter

[Matt Barrow]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
e.com...
> Student pilot Eric Johnson kills himself and his eight-year-old daughter
> by
> slamming a plane into his former mother-in-law's house. The Indiana Star
> notes that as a student pilot he was not allowed to carry passengers...
> Apparently he practiced a few touch and goes before killing himself.
>
> This seems to be getting to be a regular deal. Embry-Riddle instructors
> killing themselves on the runway, other divorced pilots deliberately
> crashing
> into houses, people jumping out of airplanes on final and landing on power
> lines so that their severed torsos splat a few feet away from small
> children.
>
> Ah yes. Suicide is such a beautiful, noble thing, according to some
> people.
> This is a trend I would really like to see stop.

A trend that has been running for 50,000 years....

[Matt Barrow]

"Christopher Brian Colohan" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Jay Beckman" > writes:
>> Step One: Eliminate all personal relationships where anyone could ever
>> have
>> the possibility of getting their heart broken...
>
> Step Two: change the rules so a pilot can seek professional help for
> depression without fear of instantly losing their medical.

Yes, being a pilot, even an amatur, is more important than your life, or
that of your child...

[John Theune]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Christopher Brian Colohan" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> "Jay Beckman" > writes:
>>> Step One: Eliminate all personal relationships where anyone could ever
>>> have
>>> the possibility of getting their heart broken...
>> Step Two: change the rules so a pilot can seek professional help for
>> depression without fear of instantly losing their medical.
>
> Yes, being a pilot, even an amatur, is more important than your life, or
> that of your child...
>
>
If it was only that black and white. You cannot even ask a professional
if you have real issues or not without the risk of losing your medical.
The forces people to make un-informed decisions about their health
because they fear the consequences of being told that they don't need
medication but rather to change their lifestyle.

[Matt Barrow]

"John Theune" > wrote in message
news:DTVHh.22036$tf.11203@trndny06...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>> "Christopher Brian Colohan" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>> "Jay Beckman" > writes:
>>>> Step One: Eliminate all personal relationships where anyone could ever
>>>> have
>>>> the possibility of getting their heart broken...
>>> Step Two: change the rules so a pilot can seek professional help for
>>> depression without fear of instantly losing their medical.
>>
>> Yes, being a pilot, even an amatur, is more important than your life, or
>> that of your child...
>>
>>
> If it was only that black and white. You cannot even ask a professional
> if you have real issues or not without the risk of losing your medical.

???

> The forces people to make un-informed decisions about their health
> because they fear the consequences of being told that they don't need
> medication but rather to change their lifestyle.

Imagine that: they have to deal with reality.

I recall some stories about people in their 80's that could no longer drive,
etc.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 7, 7:10 pm, Jose > wrote:
> > If I thought you were going to kill your 8 year old daughter I most certainly
> > would try to prevent it, no matter what your personal opinion of freedom was.
>
> > I might even try to prevent you from riding a bicycle without a helmet, if
> > for no other reason than that I am tired of having my tax and insurance
> > dollars going to support the paralyzed bozos who thought they had a right to
> > ride without one.
>
> And that's how we end up in a nanny state. It starts with something
> very reasonable, and then something less reasonable, and ends up with
> all of us in cages.
>

Precisely so. Its better to fight for the elimination of taxes than to
try and control how they are spent.

[Deadstick]

On Mar 7, 6:39 pm, Judah > wrote:
>
> Bulls%^&*.
>
> Are you Corey Lidle's wife?
>
> How, exactly, does an FBO rental counter person determine in the 6 seconds it
> takes to get the keys for the plane that the rental student is about to use
> it to commit suicide?
>
> Do you think he went into the FBO and announced it?
>
> Perhaps we should sue McDonalds because if they would have given him hotter
> coffee he would have killed himself using the coffee instead of the plane.
>
> What a world.

I once witnessed an FBO owner hand over the keys to an airplane to a
pilot who she had never met, had never flown with and had not received
any type of checkout from the FBO's CFI. The only thing he did was
flash his ATP certificate at this FBO owner and she handed him keys.
There was no attempt to verify that he was actually a pilot let alone
verify that he was proficient at flying the aircraft he was allowed to
use.

I've seen many cases where renters and/or CFIs crashed aircraft
because they were flying under conditions or circumstances that they
should NOT have been flying in. Some FBOs allow people who are un-
qualified to hand out keys or they use systems to control key access
that don't allow for any pre-screening.

I'm not saying the FBO should take 100% responsibility for the pilot's
actions, but there ARE occasions when a prudent FBO could stop an
accident before it happens by not dispatching the aircraft.

[John Galban]

On Mar 7, 6:37 pm, C J Campbell
> wrote:
>
> I might even try to prevent you from riding a bicycle without a helmet, if
> for no other reason than that I am tired of having my tax and insurance
> dollars going to support the paralyzed bozos who thought they had a right to
> ride without one.
>

Geez CJ, the bike helmet police? Are you serious? If you're really
concerned about your taxes and insurance dollars, why not go after
those that have a significant impact? I suggest hanging around at
McDonalds and knocking Big Macs and fries out of every obese person's
hands. Hang around outside a large office building and snatch the
cigarettes away from the smokers. Those are the people that have an
impact. Paralyzed bicyclists don't even register on the meter.

By the way, those paralyzed bozos did (in most cases) have a right
to ride without one. Just as most of us have a right to run with
scissors, or even slip with flaps :-)))

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Cubdriver]

On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 04:40:02 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>The student's preflight is probably much slower. The instructor's
>preflight probably concentrates on a few critical issues.

Plus the instructor very likely has already taken the plane up that
day. *And* he knows the plane.

The other day I had my biennial in the instructor's own airplane. I
was amused to realize that he was doing his own preflight check even
as I was finishing mine. But in this case he hadn't flown the plane
that day.

[Shirl]

Cubdriver <usenet AT danford.net> wrote:
> Plus the instructor very likely has already taken the plane up that
> day. *And* he knows the plane.

I know *my* airplane, too, but I still do as thorough a preflight, every
time, as I did on the planes I used to rent. What's knowing the plane
have to do with it? Things can still change between flights.

[Deadstick]

On Mar 7, 8:39 pm, Jim > wrote:

> This happened at my home airport The guy only had 1 supervised solo
>
> He was able to get the plane because he hid the girl and the FBO thought
> he was waiting for the Instructor to show up for a lesson. Which he
> did show up for a lesson but for another student he was already airborne
>
> It has been customary for the student to get the keys and preflight the
> plane before the Instructor shows up to save time

Again, I point my finger at the FBOs practices. Customary? Ok. Good
idea? No.

"Save Time" sometimes equals "Costs Lives."

Aviation is an inherently dangerous undertaking. Time spent doing it
right will save lives. This means EVERYONE. The FBO owner, the FBO
dispatcher, the CFI, the renter, the lineman, the
mechanic...everyone.

In my opinion the FBO should NEVER dispatch keys to anyone other than
the PIC. If the student is flying dual with his CFI or flying solo,
then the Student may be given the keys but only when a CFI is
confirmed to be present and supervising.

[Shirl]

"Deadstick" > wrote:
> In my opinion the FBO should NEVER dispatch keys to anyone other than
> the PIC. If the student is flying dual with his CFI or flying solo,
> then the Student may be given the keys but only when a CFI is
> confirmed to be present and supervising.

If you worked at a school or FBO, you'd see how/why it's done this way,
the student signing the dispatch sheet and being given the keys to go
preflight while the CFI is finishing up with the prior customer.

And "only when the CFI is confirmed to be present and supervising" would
be a huge grey area and subject to anyone's interpretation of "present
and supervising". If he/she is present at the FBO, does that count as
being "present"? or does he/she have to be "present" at the *airplane*
while the student is pre-flighting? What is "supervising"? If he/she is
looking out the window while the student pre-flights, is that
"supervising" or does he/she have to be standing 3-feet away to fulfill
the definition of "supervising"?

It's like the varying opinions of what "supervised solo" means.
Everyone's FIRST solo is "supervised" because the CFI is generally
standing somewhere close to the runway watching the whole thing. How
about the first time the unlicensed solo student leaves the airport and
flies out to the practice area? Aside from the pre-flight debrief, the
pre-flight and the takeoff, once the airplane is out of sight, how does
that fit the definition of "supervised"?

The ONLY reason this commonly used procedure of students pre-flighting
while their CFIs are finishing up with prior customers doesn't work is
because of the one in how-many who takes the keys and flies the airplane
into a house.

[Tony]

It's also worth noting that there are very few hours of instruction
between the time a student goes out to preflight and when he or she is
signed off to solo. What is being worried to death here is that brief
interval spanning maybe 10 or 15 hours of instruction, What then?
Suppose he was qualified to solo? Suppose he passed his exam and was
now a PP?

This is reminding me of gun control laws that are passed after a crime
is committed that never addresses the threat -- instead it makes
ownership more difficult for owners who are trying to stay legal.



On Mar 9, 1:51 pm, Shirl > wrote:
> "Deadstick" > wrote:
> > In my opinion the FBO should NEVER dispatch keys to anyone other than
> > the PIC. If the student is flying dual with his CFI or flying solo,
> > then thpeople are e Student may be given the keys but only when a CFI is
> > confirwhmed to be present and supervising.
>
> If you worked at a school or FBO, you'd see how/why it's done this way,
> the student signing the dispatch sheet and being given the keys to go
> preflight while the CFI is finishing up with the prior customer.
>
> And "only when the CFI is confirmed to be present and supervising" would
> be a huge grey area and subject to anyone's interpretation of "present
> and supervising". If he/she is present at the FBO, does that count as
> being "present"? or does he/she have to be "present" at the *airplane*
> while the student is pre-flighting? What is "supervising"? If he/she is
> looking out the window while the student pre-flights, is that
> "supervising" or does he/she have to be standing 3-feet away to fulfill
> the definition of "supervising"?
>
> It's like the varying opinions of what "supervised solo" means.
> Everyone's FIRST solo is "supervised" because the CFI is generally
> standing somewhere close to the runway watching the whole thing. How
> about the first time the unlicensed solo student leaves the airport and
> flies out to the practice area? Aside from the pre-flight debrief, the
> pre-flight and the takeoff, once the airplane is out of sight, how does
> that fit the definition of "supervised"?
>
> The ONLY reason this commonly used procedure of students pre-flighting
> while their CFIs are finishing up with prior customers doesn't work is
> because of the one in how-many who takes the keys and flies the airplane
> into a house.

[Judah]

"Deadstick" > wrote in
oups.com:

> I once witnessed an FBO owner hand over the keys to an airplane to a
> pilot who she had never met, had never flown with and had not received
> any type of checkout from the FBO's CFI. The only thing he did was
> flash his ATP certificate at this FBO owner and she handed him keys.
> There was no attempt to verify that he was actually a pilot let alone
> verify that he was proficient at flying the aircraft he was allowed to
> use.
>
> I've seen many cases where renters and/or CFIs crashed aircraft
> because they were flying under conditions or circumstances that they
> should NOT have been flying in. Some FBOs allow people who are un-
> qualified to hand out keys or they use systems to control key access
> that don't allow for any pre-screening.
>
> I'm not saying the FBO should take 100% responsibility for the pilot's
> actions, but there ARE occasions when a prudent FBO could stop an
> accident before it happens by not dispatching the aircraft.

I only slightly disagree with the above statement. (Specifically, I don't
think it's appropriate for FBOs to make marginal decisions for students.)
But in this case it seems appropriate for the flight school to have
dispatched this plane to their student, and there could have been no way
for the counter person to determine that this pilot had any intention of
breaching the trust that he had built with the FBO in the past by leaving
without the instructor or using their plane as a weapon.

If the guy's been training there for 4 months, I don't think it's negligent
to give him keys to a plane...

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 9, 9:36 am, "Deadstick" > wrote:
> On Mar 7, 8:39 pm, Jim > wrote:
>

> In my opinion the FBO should NEVER dispatch keys to anyone other than
> the PIC. If the student is flying dual with his CFI or flying solo,
> then the Student may be given the keys but only when a CFI is
> confirmed to be present and supervising.


That's what happened in this case, the keys were given to the PIC (the
student pilot). He wasn't schedule (nor did he need ) a CFI. You are
suggesting that the student have to pay for a CFI to come to the
airport before every one of his solos? I don't drive out to the
airport unless I'm schedule to fly, I'm not driving out to the airport
to watch someone hand the student keys.
What would you do for students who own their own planes?


-Robret

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 9, 12:35 pm, "Tony" > wrote:
> It's also worth noting that there are very few hours of instruction
> between the time a student goes out to preflight and when he or she is
> signed off to solo. What is being worried to death here is that brief
> interval spanning maybe 10 or 15 hours of instruction, What then?
> Suppose he was qualified to solo? Suppose he passed his exam and was
> now a PP?
>
> This is reminding me of gun control laws that are passed after a crime
> is committed that never addresses the threat -- instead it makes
> ownership more difficult for owners who are trying to stay legal.


Clearly this guy finds all aircraft to be a clear and immediate danger
to the public. This is the type of guy we should all be very afraid
of.

-Robret

[John Ousterhout]

A 90 year-old pilot is having breakfast at the airport with his son.

"I've got to get my medical next week. If Doc don't pass me I'm gonna
get in the Super Cub and fly out over the ocean til it runs out of gas."

"Dad, NO!... Not the Super Cub."

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

John Ousterhout wrote:
> A 90 year-old pilot is having breakfast at the airport with his son.
>
> "I've got to get my medical next week. If Doc don't pass me I'm gonna
> get in the Super Cub and fly out over the ocean til it runs out of gas."
>
> "Dad, NO!... Not the Super Cub."
>

Priorities!!! The stuff of life :-)))
Dudley Henriques

[[email protected]]

On Mar 7, 12:20 pm, Christopher Brian Colohan >
wrote:
> "Jay Beckman" > writes:
> > Step One: Eliminate all personal relationships where anyone could ever have
> > the possibility of getting their heart broken...
>
> Step Two: change the rules so a pilot can seek professional help for
> depression without fear of instantly losing their medical.
>
> Chris

Three, allow sales of AA radar and missles to civilians, 2nd Amendment
you know.
Stock Cammo Netting at Mao-Depot and Mao-Mart...JG

[[email protected]]

On Mar 7, 10:40 pm, Jose > wrote:
> > How then, does it 'save time' if the student does the pre-flight before the
> > instructor arrives, if the instructor is going to do it again anyway?
>
> The student's preflight is probably much slower. The instructor's
> preflight probably concentrates on a few critical issues. The
> instructor probably just flew that airplane a few hours ago. Not so the
> student.

Mayor Daley's repossession of Northerly Island looks smarter
everyday...JG

[Peter Dohm]

> I'm not saying the FBO should take 100% responsibility for the pilot's
> actions, but there ARE occasions when a prudent FBO could stop an
> accident before it happens by not dispatching the aircraft.
>
I am sorry about the loss of a perfectly good airplane, and about the
daughter who appears to have been a pawn in this sordid little tale.

However, NO ACCIDENT OCCURRED.

Further, the deceased would both be precisely as dead, and more collateral
damage would most likely have occurred, if other means had been employed.

Kindly take your fascist recommendations elsewhere--like Iran!!!!!

Peter

[Peter Dohm]

> On Mar 7, 7:10 pm, Jose > wrote:
> > > If I thought you were going to kill your 8 year old daughter I most
certainly
> > > would try to prevent it, no matter what your personal opinion of
freedom was.
> >
> > > I might even try to prevent you from riding a bicycle without a
helmet, if
> > > for no other reason than that I am tired of having my tax and
insurance
> > > dollars going to support the paralyzed bozos who thought they had a
right to
> > > ride without one.
> >
> > And that's how we end up in a nanny state. It starts with something
> > very reasonable, and then something less reasonable, and ends up with
> > all of us in cages.
> >
>
> Precisely so. Its better to fight for the elimination of taxes than to
> try and control how they are spent.
>
Well said!

And far mor concise than the tirade I was considering...

Peter

[Peter Dohm]

>
> John Ousterhout wrote:
> > A 90 year-old pilot is having breakfast at the airport with his son.
> >
> > "I've got to get my medical next week. If Doc don't pass me I'm gonna
> > get in the Super Cub and fly out over the ocean til it runs out of gas."
> >
> > "Dad, NO!... Not the Super Cub."
> >
>
> Priorities!!! The stuff of life :-)))
> Dudley Henriques

When I was young, there was an old gent who kept a Pitts Special in a hangar
at our local airport. He didn't no longer flew it (that was 30+ years ago)
and once told me that he planned to take one last flight--when he no longer
felt able to care for himself at home--and land it straight down on the
spinner out in the swamp.

The little plane was a thing of beauty ... nearly alive ... I was horrified!

I am still not sold on his (proposed) methodology,
but now, I can just barely manage a shrug. (sigh)

Peter

[brtlmj]

> When I was young, there was an old gent who kept a Pitts Special in a hangar
> at our local airport. He didn't no longer flew it (that was 30+ years ago)
> and once told me that he planned to take one last flight--when he no longer
> felt able to care for himself at home--and land it straight down on the
> spinner out in the swamp.

Makes one wonder... how many spins from the turn to final are not
accidents at all...

Bartek

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Peter Dohm wrote:
>> John Ousterhout wrote:
>>> A 90 year-old pilot is having breakfast at the airport with his son.
>>>
>>> "I've got to get my medical next week. If Doc don't pass me I'm gonna
>>> get in the Super Cub and fly out over the ocean til it runs out of gas."
>>>
>>> "Dad, NO!... Not the Super Cub."
>>>
>> Priorities!!! The stuff of life :-)))
>> Dudley Henriques
>
> When I was young, there was an old gent who kept a Pitts Special in a hangar
> at our local airport. He didn't no longer flew it (that was 30+ years ago)
> and once told me that he planned to take one last flight--when he no longer
> felt able to care for himself at home--and land it straight down on the
> spinner out in the swamp.
>
> The little plane was a thing of beauty ... nearly alive ... I was horrified!
>
> I am still not sold on his (proposed) methodology,
> but now, I can just barely manage a shrug. (sigh)
>
> Peter
>
>

A pilot's Pitts is a real personal piece of equipment for sure, (sort of
like flying while inside a red prophylactic actually) I don't think ole'
Curtis down there in Homestead would have approved much if one of his
birds ended up being used for a lawn dart though. A real bad end for a
real good airplane.

Had an acquaintance way back in the old days. He was the best Twin Beech
I ever knew. Got cancer. He lived with it for as long as he could I guess.
We heard that one day he simply got a shotgun, walked down to the
basement of his house, put on his favorite record on an old antique
Wurlitzer juke box he had restored, then put the barrel in his mouth and
somehow managed to pull the trigger.
You just never can tell how you will react to depression or pain that
deep when and if it happens. Just pray it passes you by somehow.
Dudley Henriques

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-03-08 12:58:32 -0800, "John Galban" > said:

> On Mar 7, 6:37 pm, C J Campbell
> > wrote:
>>
>> I might even try to prevent you from riding a bicycle without a helmet, if
>> for no other reason than that I am tired of having my tax and insurance
>> dollars going to support the paralyzed bozos who thought they had a right to
>> ride without one.
>>
>
> Geez CJ, the bike helmet police? Are you serious? If you're really
> concerned about your taxes and insurance dollars, why not go after
> those that have a significant impact? I suggest hanging around at
> McDonalds and knocking Big Macs and fries out of every obese person's
> hands.

I certainly would be a lot better off if someone did that to me...
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-03-10 07:29:11 -0800, John Ousterhout
> said:

> A 90 year-old pilot is having breakfast at the airport with his son.
>
> "I've got to get my medical next week. If Doc don't pass me I'm gonna
> get in the Super Cub and fly out over the ocean til it runs out of gas."
>
> "Dad, NO!... Not the Super Cub."

The son would be what, nearly 70? :-)

Darned right. You want to do that, you see how far out you can swim...

Seriously, there are some people who are that trivial. You kill
yourself if you don't get a medical. You wonder if people like that are
really alive anyway.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Peter Dohm wrote:
> >>> A 90 year-old pilot is having breakfast at the airport with his son.
>>>>> "I've got to get my medical next week. If Doc don't pass me I'm gonna
>>>>> get in the Super Cub and fly out over the ocean til it runs out of
> gas."
>>>>> "Dad, NO!... Not the Super Cub."
>>>>>
>>>> Priorities!!! The stuff of life :-)))
>>>> Dudley Henriques
>>> When I was young, there was an old gent who kept a Pitts Special in a
> hangar
>>> at our local airport. He didn't no longer flew it (that was 30+ years
> ago)
>>> and once told me that he planned to take one last flight--when he no
> longer
>>> felt able to care for himself at home--and land it straight down on the
>>> spinner out in the swamp.
>>>
>>> The little plane was a thing of beauty ... nearly alive ... I was
> horrified!
>>> I am still not sold on his (proposed) methodology,
>>> but now, I can just barely manage a shrug. (sigh)
>>>
>> A pilot's Pitts is a real personal piece of equipment for sure, (sort of
>> like flying while inside a red prophylactic actually) I don't think ole'
>> Curtis down there in Homestead would have approved much if one of his
>> birds ended up being used for a lawn dart though. A real bad end for a
>> real good airplane.
>>
> Gosh Dudley, you must be psychic. His Pitts was red! :-)
>
> It's a shame ol' Curtis is gone, and I never got to meet him.
>
> Peter

:-)))))
Actually, there was a time when most of the Pitts' out there were red.
It was Curtis' favorite color. Being painted red also helped them to be
seen both as a safety factor and in the air show demonstration scenario.

I flew a red S1S for show work on occasion. I'd say it was around the
70's that the airplane started showing up in other colors.
Naturally, color was and is a personal choice, but I believe red will
always be the color for the majority of Pitts' flown in the world.
Dudley Henriques

[Peter Dohm]

>>> A 90 year-old pilot is having breakfast at the airport with his son.
> >>>
> >>> "I've got to get my medical next week. If Doc don't pass me I'm gonna
> >>> get in the Super Cub and fly out over the ocean til it runs out of
gas."
> >>>
> >>> "Dad, NO!... Not the Super Cub."
> >>>
> >> Priorities!!! The stuff of life :-)))
> >> Dudley Henriques
> >
> > When I was young, there was an old gent who kept a Pitts Special in a
hangar
> > at our local airport. He didn't no longer flew it (that was 30+ years
ago)
> > and once told me that he planned to take one last flight--when he no
longer
> > felt able to care for himself at home--and land it straight down on the
> > spinner out in the swamp.
> >
> > The little plane was a thing of beauty ... nearly alive ... I was
horrified!
> >
> > I am still not sold on his (proposed) methodology,
> > but now, I can just barely manage a shrug. (sigh)
> >
>
> A pilot's Pitts is a real personal piece of equipment for sure, (sort of
> like flying while inside a red prophylactic actually) I don't think ole'
> Curtis down there in Homestead would have approved much if one of his
> birds ended up being used for a lawn dart though. A real bad end for a
> real good airplane.
>
Gosh Dudley, you must be psychic. His Pitts was red! :-)

It's a shame ol' Curtis is gone, and I never got to meet him.

Peter

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
...
> >>> A 90 year-old pilot is having breakfast at the airport with his son.
> >>>
> >>> "I've got to get my medical next week. If Doc don't pass me I'm gonna
> >>> get in the Super Cub and fly out over the ocean til it runs out of
gas."
> >>>
> >>> "Dad, NO!... Not the Super Cub."

<...>> A pilot's Pitts is a real personal piece of equipment for sure, (sort
of
>> like flying while inside a red prophylactic actually) I don't think ole'
>> Curtis down there in Homestead would have approved much if one of his
>> birds ended up being used for a lawn dart though. A real bad end for a
>> real good airplane.
>>
> Gosh Dudley, you must be psychic. His Pitts was red! :-)
>

That would rank right up there with guessing the Cub was yellow...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Mxsmanic]

C J Campbell writes:

> Seriously, there are some people who are that trivial. You kill
> yourself if you don't get a medical. You wonder if people like that are
> really alive anyway.

If they live to fly, their behavior is understandable.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Deadstick]

> I am sorry about the loss of a perfectly good airplane, and about the
> daughter who appears to have been a pawn in this sordid little tale.
>
> However, NO ACCIDENT OCCURRED.
>
> Further, the deceased would both be precisely as dead, and more collateral
> damage would most likely have occurred, if other means had been employed.
>
> Kindly take your fascist recommendations elsewhere--like Iran!!!!!
>
> Peter

If you aren't being sarcastic I must say I'm not clear as to why you
view my comments as "fascist."

I have inside sources who have provided me information about this
accident. I am not at liberty to divulge the nature of those sources
so I will not claim to have all the facts. However, the information
provided to me indicates that the pilot did not have the proper
endorsements to be legal to fly solo. I believe it is the
responsibility of the FBO to verify that a student pilot has the
proper endorsements and meets certain other easily determined legal
requirements before dispatching an aircraft to a renter.

For the record I have worked at several FBOs, many of which have used
good procedures for making sure that aircraft are not dispatched to
anyone without making sure they meet certain legal requirements.
Those FBOs who were rigorous in their practice of good dispatch
procedures generally had few or no aircraft losses wheras those who
were lax in their dispatch procedures frequently experienced damaged
aircraft. I realize this is not statistically significant, but I do
not see how it could be argued that proper dispatch procedures won't
reduce the number of accidents and incidents.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Deadstick" > wrote

> I realize this is not statistically significant, but I do
> not see how it could be argued that proper dispatch procedures won't
> reduce the number of accidents and incidents.

It would seem that it could not *increase* the number of incidents and
accidents, at least.
--
Jim in NC