chain of events

[Capt.Doug]

I went downstairs to the hotel restaurant and ran into a friend who
recounted a recent experience he had. He was inbound to LAX on the Civet
arrival to rwy 25R at night. His FO coupled the autopilot to the ILS about
30 miles out. Approach control pointed out traffic from the northeast that
was to join the ILS for the north side's parallel runway. Everything was
routine. They were told to switch over to the tower's frequency. Then they
saw a bright flash from an explosion on the north side of the terminal. Both
of them thought there had been a crash.

From here everything happened rapidly. They were staring so hard out the
front that they didn't notice the parallel traffic went through the
northside localizer and was heading right at them. Then the TCAS went crazy
telling them to pull up. Then the autopilot let out with it's loud series of
chirps. Then the captain yelled at the FO to pull up because there was no
response to the TCAS. The FO yelled back that he thought the captain had the
controls. The captain looked out his window to see an A-340 less than 200'
below them and it was racked up at big bank angle trying to get back on
final for the north runway. Then a frantic radio call came from ATC asking
if they were still there.

The subsequent investigation revealed an interesting chain of events. The
flash came from an exploding electrical transformer. The localizer,
glideslope, and ATC radios failed momentarily until back-up power came
online. When the localizer signal failed, the A-340's autopilot didn't have
anything to intercept and stayed on the intercept angle, which is why it
went through the final approach into the south runway's final approach. When
the localizer failed, my friend's autopilot didn't kick-off, but changed
from approach mode into heading and pitch mode which mimics the ILS in
smooth air. The FO heard the autopilot chirps along with the TCAS warnings
and figured the captain had assumed control from him. The captain heard the
same noises but figured the FO had kicked off the AP to perform the TCAS
instructions.

It was close. Stay safe.

D.

[Jay Honeck]

> It was close. Stay safe.

Holy crap! What an amazing story.

We had a Cherokee Six declare an emergency here last week. He was on
an Angel Flight from Texas, and started icing up badly. Then his
engine lost power (carb ice?) and he was down to 200' AGL before he
was able to restart it.

He got down okay, badly shaken. The guy didn't even have a coat --
one of the line guys lent him his...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> We had a Cherokee Six declare an emergency here last week. He was on
> an Angel Flight from Texas, and started icing up badly. Then his
> engine lost power (carb ice?) and he was down to 200' AGL before he
> was able to restart it.
>
> He got down okay, badly shaken. The guy didn't even have a coat --
> one of the line guys lent him his...

What about his passenger(s)?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jose]

Wow! Shows how every little thing can have big consequences.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[F. Reid]

On Mar 8, 7:28 pm, "Capt.Doug" > wrote:
> I went downstairs to the hotel restaurant and ran into a friend who
> recounted a recent experience he had. He was inbound to LAX on the Civet
> arrival to rwy 25R at night. His FO coupled the autopilot to the ILS about
> 30 miles out. Approach control pointed out traffic from the northeast that
> was to join the ILS for the north side's parallel runway. Everything was
> routine. They were told to switch over to the tower's frequency. Then they
> saw a bright flash from an explosion on the north side of the terminal. Both
> of them thought there had been a crash.
>
> From here everything happened rapidly. They were staring so hard out the
> front that they didn't notice the parallel traffic went through the
> northside localizer and was heading right at them. Then the TCAS went crazy
> telling them to pull up. Then the autopilot let out with it's loud series of
> chirps. Then the captain yelled at the FO to pull up because there was no
> response to the TCAS. The FO yelled back that he thought the captain had the
> controls. The captain looked out his window to see an A-340 less than 200'
> below them and it was racked up at big bank angle trying to get back on
> final for the north runway. Then a frantic radio call came from ATC asking
> if they were still there.
>
> The subsequent investigation revealed an interesting chain of events. The
> flash came from an exploding electrical transformer. The localizer,
> glideslope, and ATC radios failed momentarily until back-up power came
> online. When the localizer signal failed, the A-340's autopilot didn't have
> anything to intercept and stayed on the intercept angle, which is why it
> went through the final approach into the south runway's final approach. When
> the localizer failed, my friend's autopilot didn't kick-off, but changed
> from approach mode into heading and pitch mode which mimics the ILS in
> smooth air. The FO heard the autopilot chirps along with the TCAS warnings
> and figured the captain had assumed control from him. The captain heard the
> same noises but figured the FO had kicked off the AP to perform the TCAS
> instructions.
>
> It was close. Stay safe.
>
> D.

Doug, This story doesnt make a bit of sense! I got a good laugh out of
it though.Did someone actually tell you this or did you just make it
up?
Cheers, KW

[KiloMike]

"F. Reid" > wrote:

>Doug, This story doesnt make a bit of sense! I got a good laugh out of
>it though.Did someone actually tell you this or did you just make it
>up?
>Cheers, KW

What a stupid response to a great story. I have read your postings before. Classic troll. Go away.

[F. Reid]

On Mar 8, 10:18 pm, "KiloMike" > wrote:
> "F. Reid" > wrote:
> >Doug, This story doesnt make a bit of sense! I got a good laugh out of
> >it though.Did someone actually tell you this or did you just make it
> >up?
> >Cheers, KW
>
> What a stupid response to a great story. I have read your postings before. Classic troll. Go away.

Stupid response?Did I not post that I got a good laugh?Pretty much all
of this story defies common sense to the point I thought it was a
joke.But I guess you would rather perpetuate internet folklore.
Classic troll my ass.Why dont you go away jerk off.

[F. Reid]

On Mar 8, 10:18 pm, "KiloMike" > wrote:

>
> What a stupid response to a great story. I have read your postings before. Classic troll. Go away.

KM, dont be such a gulible idiot.It is obvious most of this story is
either embelished or made up.Let me spell it out for you;First, tell
me the last time you got 25R at LAX 30 miles out on the Civet.Could
happen I guess, but I have never seen it.Further more, are you gonna
see a transformer go at 30 miles.Do you really think the airport would
go dead (Like the scene in the movie Airplane when the guy in the
tower pulls the plug).If you were the crew of the A340 on a vector to
final would you just fly though final if you had a localizer flag? An
A340 doesnt even need ground based equipment to fly an approach.And
what about their TCAS? I can go on with this but I hope you have the
picture.
Kilo Mike, you should work on recocnizing internet folklore instead
calling people names.
KM

[KM]

On Mar 8, 11:38 pm, "F. Reid" > wrote:
> On Mar 8, 10:18 pm, "KiloMike" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > What a stupid response to a great story. I have read your postings before. Classic troll. Go away.
..It is obvious most of this story is
> either embelished or made up.Let me spell it out for you;First, tell
> me the last time you got 25R at LAX 30 miles out on the Civet.Could
> happen I guess, but I have never seen it.Further more, are you gonna
> see a transformer go at 30 miles.Do you really think the airport would
> go dead (Like the scene in the movie Airplane when the guy in the
> tower pulls the plug).If you were the crew of the A340 on a vector to
> final would you just fly though final if you had a localizer flag? An
> A340 doesnt even need ground based equipment to fly an approach.And
> what about their TCAS? I can go on with this but I hope you have the
> picture.
> Kilo Mike, you should work on recocnizing internet folklore instead
> calling people names.

I gotta second what Ried is saying here.How can the radios AND the
Localizer go out long enough for this to happen.The Civet is for 25L
not the right.
This sounds like a fish story to me.I think KiloMike is a troll and
should go away.
KU

[Mxsmanic]

F. Reid writes:

> Further more, are you gonna see a transformer go at 30 miles.

At least this part is certainly possible. If it's a large transformer with an
arcing failure and the weather is reasonably clear, you'll see it. It's
essentially a multimegawatt arc lamp, brighter than a lighthouse.

> Do you really think the airport would
> go dead (Like the scene in the movie Airplane when the guy in the
> tower pulls the plug).

If it's a very large and important transformer, it might, until emergency
supplies could take over (but I would expect immediate transfer, not seconds
of delay).

> An A340 doesnt even need ground based equipment to fly an approach.

How does it line up with the runway and land?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Matt Barrow]

"KM" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Mar 8, 11:38 pm, "F. Reid" > wrote:
>> On Mar 8, 10:18 pm, "KiloMike" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > What a stupid response to a great story. I have read your postings
>> > before. Classic troll. Go away.
> .It is obvious most of this story is
>> either embelished or made up.Let me spell it out for you;First, tell
>> me the last time you got 25R at LAX 30 miles out on the Civet.Could
>> happen I guess, but I have never seen it.Further more, are you gonna
>> see a transformer go at 30 miles.Do you really think the airport would
>> go dead (Like the scene in the movie Airplane when the guy in the
>> tower pulls the plug).If you were the crew of the A340 on a vector to
>> final would you just fly though final if you had a localizer flag? An
>> A340 doesnt even need ground based equipment to fly an approach.And
>> what about their TCAS? I can go on with this but I hope you have the
>> picture.
>> Kilo Mike, you should work on recocnizing internet folklore instead
>> calling people names.
>
> I gotta second what Ried is saying here.How can the radios AND the
> Localizer go out long enough for this to happen.The Civet is for 25L
> not the right.
> This sounds like a fish story to me.I think KiloMike is a troll and
> should go away.


{Plonk} you and Reid for being pretentious assholes

[KM]

On Mar 9, 6:10 am, "Matt Barrow" > wrote:

>
> {Plonk} you and Reid for being pretentious assholes- Hide quoted text -
>
Matt Barrow, boy are you a dumbass if you think airliners are
actually flown this way.Not to mention a petty jerk off.Are you the
Matt Barrow who got himself fired from a certain commuter airline? It
wouldnt surprise me.
Matt, most people are gonna read this story and enjoy it for its
entertainment value and thats it.Why cant you appreciate that.I once
had an aviation instructor who said you should believe about half of
what you see and 10% of what you read (pertaining to aviation).This
was in the days before internet, so I would add that you should
believe 1% of the stuff you read on the internet.I saw right through
this story and got a good laugh out of it (I think thats what the
original poster wanted).How does this make me an asshole.Matt, you are
a bigger asshole if you think this story is true.

[Dave S]

KM wrote:

>
> I gotta second what Ried is saying here.How can the radios AND the
> Localizer go out long enough for this to happen.The Civet is for 25L
> not the right.
> This sounds like a fish story to me.I think KiloMike is a troll and
> should go away.
> KU
>
>
>

I dont know about the approach itself, but the power issue is very
believable. If the main transformer for the whole place let go, its VERY
likely that it takes 10 or more seconds for the generator to get up and
running. Also, if I understand right, the generators dont serve the
entire airport, just select facilities and one or two main runways.

If such a big flash DID occur, then its likely that other cockpits would
have eyes fixated on it as well.

The only thing that doesn't make any sense.. is why would I only be
reading about it on usenet... and not CNN. A NMAC usually makes big news.

[Montblack]

("KM" wrote)
> Matt, most people are gonna read this story and enjoy it for its
> entertainment value and thats it.Why cant you appreciate that.I once had
> an aviation instructor who said you should believe about half of what you
> see and 10% of what you read (pertaining to aviation).This was in the days
> before internet, so I would add that you should believe 1% of the stuff
> you read on the internet.I saw right through this story and got a good
> laugh out of it (I think thats what the original poster wanted).


Why no space between your sentences?


Mont Black

[Bob Noel]

In article k.net>,
Dave S > wrote:

> I dont know about the approach itself, but the power issue is very
> believable. If the main transformer for the whole place let go, its VERY
> likely that it takes 10 or more seconds for the generator to get up and
> running. Also, if I understand right, the generators dont serve the
> entire airport, just select facilities and one or two main runways.

An approach system doesn't have a UPS?

--
Bob Noel
(gave up lookingn for a particular sig the lawyer will)

[KM]

On Mar 9, 9:39 am, Dave S > wrote:
> KM wrote:
>
>
> I dont know about the approach itself, but the power issue is very
> believable. If the main transformer for the whole place let go, its VERY
> likely that it takes 10 or more seconds for the generator to get up and
> running. Also, if I understand right, the generators dont serve the
> entire airport, just select facilities and one or two main runways.

Dave, you also have to understand that the ATC facilities are at two
separate locations.Try to imagine (even if it did take that long to
restore power) how long it would take to fly from north of the
approach to 24R, then though final, and then across the final for the
south complex (Not diagonally mind you, but on a typicle intercept
heading)? Also, the copilot would have seen the A340 first, not the
captain.If you tried to check in with the tower and got no response,
wouldnt you go back to approach?
The thing that really gives this story away is that there is no way in
hell that a crew would ignore an RA while on an approach to an airport
with similtaneous approaches to parallel runways. Two crews if you
count the A340 guys.
>
> The only thing that doesn't make any sense.. is why would I only be
> reading about it on usenet... and not CNN. A NMAC usually makes big news.
This is your next clue Dave.I went back and read some of "Capt Doug's"
posts and he does know a bit about airliners, but his posts show a
lack of understanding of enough of the detail to actually fly
one.Judging from his posts I would say he is probably a flight
attendant at NWA who flys on the side.And I would say he spends alot
of time talking to pilots about flying.

[john smith]

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Then his engine lost power (carb ice?) and he was down
> to 200' AGL before he was able to restart it.

Shouldn't that be "induction" icing?

[Matt Barrow]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("KM" wrote)
>> Matt, most people are gonna read this story and enjoy it for its
>> entertainment value and thats it.Why cant you appreciate that.I once had
>> an aviation instructor who said you should believe about half of what you
>> see and 10% of what you read (pertaining to aviation).This was in the
>> days before internet, so I would add that you should believe 1% of the
>> stuff you read on the internet.I saw right through this story and got a
>> good laugh out of it (I think thats what the original poster wanted).
>
>
> Why no space between your sentences?
>
Why no coherence, either?

[Matt Barrow]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article k.net>,
> Dave S > wrote:
>
>> I dont know about the approach itself, but the power issue is very
>> believable. If the main transformer for the whole place let go, its VERY
>> likely that it takes 10 or more seconds for the generator to get up and
>> running. Also, if I understand right, the generators dont serve the
>> entire airport, just select facilities and one or two main runways.
>
> An approach system doesn't have a UPS?

The article said it took a few seconds to kick in.

[Matt Barrow]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article . com>,
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>> Then his engine lost power (carb ice?) and he was down
>> to 200' AGL before he was able to restart it.
>
> Shouldn't that be "induction" icing?

You say to-mah-to, I say, tom-ah-toe.

[KM]

On Mar 9, 2:34 pm, "Matt Barrow" > wrote:
>
> You say to-mah-to, I say, tom-ah-toe.

Actually Matt, I think we all say "Jerk Off" to you and your stupid
posts.

[Capt.Doug]

>"john smith" wrote in message> Shouldn't that be "induction" icing?

The 260 horsepower model was carbeurated.

D.

[Capt.Doug]

>"KM" wrote in message >I went back and read some of "Capt Doug's"
> posts and he does know a bit about airliners, but his posts show a
> lack of understanding of enough of the detail to actually fly
> one.Judging from his posts I would say he is probably a flight
> attendant at NWA who flys on the side.And I would say he spends alot
> of time talking to pilots about flying.

For those of you who know me personally, this answers itself.

D.

[KM]

On Mar 9, 5:02 pm, "Capt.Doug" > wrote:
> >"KM" wrote in message >I went back and read some of "Capt Doug's"
> > posts and he does know a bit about airliners, but his posts show a
> > lack of understanding of enough of the detail to actually fly
> > one.Judging from his posts I would say he is probably a flight
> > attendant at NWA who flys on the side.And I would say he spends alot
> > of time talking to pilots about flying.
>
> For those of you who know me personally, this answers itself.
>
> D.

Doug, come on dude.You posted some answers to a couple of technical
questions on Boeings that didnt make any sense.My guess is that you
hang out with pilots on layovers alot and pick their brains, and maybe
even read through some manuals.I get the same thing at my work, and
once I met a flight attendant who had 8000 hours.
Furthermore, this is the internet, and how many people here know you
personally?If you are who you say you are, I can respect that, but
just tell me where you are based and the initials of your chief pilot
and I will look it up and offer you an appology.
KM
PS how does an autopilot "mimic the ILS in smooth air"?????

[Mike 'Flyin'8']

>> An approach system doesn't have a UPS?
>
>The article said it took a few seconds to kick in.

UPS's don't need time to "Kick In" That is why thet are called
UnInteruptable Power Supplies.

Generator power is another story. Typicall transfer times are
generally in the neighborhood of 10 seconds from a cold start to power
transfer.


Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

[john smith]

> >"john smith" wrote in message> Shouldn't that be "induction" icing?

"Capt.Doug" > wrote:
> The 260 horsepower model was carbeurated.

Thank you.

[john smith]

In article >,
Mike 'Flyin'8' > wrote:

> UPS's don't need time to "Kick In" That is why thet are called
> UnInteruptable Power Supplies.

UPS are usually designed to come online within a couple of cycles.

[Capt.Doug]

>"KM" wrote in message
> Doug, come on dude.You posted some answers to a couple of technical
> questions on Boeings that didnt make any sense.

Hmm... I don't recall you posting with this name for very long, and yet you
have so much to offer the group (sarcasm).

>My guess is that you
> hang out with pilots on layovers alot and pick their brains, and maybe
> even read through some manuals.I get the same thing at my work, and
> once I met a flight attendant who had 8000 hours.

Yes, I do, and yes, you are guessing.

>If you are who you say you are, I can respect that,

Hmmm... I've never seen respect shown in such a manner.

> just tell me where you are based and the initials of your chief pilot
> and I will look it up and offer you an appology.

Hmmm.... Give personal information to a suspected troll? I'm crazy, but
not stupid. You go first. If you aren't in CASS, please don't bother.

> PS how does an autopilot "mimic the ILS in smooth air"?????

Pay attention here- If the airplane is trimmed for flying the ILS, and the
autopilot reverts to heading and pitch mode, the airplane will continue a
course very close to the ILS while in calm air. Of course you knew this but
wanted to see if I knew it, right?.

Bottom line is that I don't care to prove anything to you. I don't care what
you think. You can cajole, provoke, instigate, flame, and irritate others
here, but I don't care what you think. Have a good day.

D.

[Mike 'Flyin'8']

>In article >,
> Mike 'Flyin'8' > wrote:
>
>> UPS's don't need time to "Kick In" That is why thet are called
>> UnInteruptable Power Supplies.
>
>UPS are usually designed to come online within a couple of cycles.

I have never seen a UPS that takes more than a fraction of a cycle to
transition to backup mode. In fact, units which are used in "mission
critical" applications are not the line interactive type as you seem
to be thinking about above, instead are dual online conversion. I
would assume that a UPS used for ILS equipment and radio
communications for ATC would be a mission critical design as opposed
to the less than reliable line interactive design. The dual online
conversion types are actually running off battery and an oscillator
all the time. There is no switching time.

But hey... What do I know...



Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

[Don Tuite]

On Fri, 09 Mar 2007 17:48:01 -0800, Mike 'Flyin'8'
> wrote:

>>In article >,
>> Mike 'Flyin'8' > wrote:
>>
>>> UPS's don't need time to "Kick In" That is why thet are called
>>> UnInteruptable Power Supplies.
>>
>>UPS are usually designed to come online within a couple of cycles.
>
>I have never seen a UPS that takes more than a fraction of a cycle to
>transition to backup mode. In fact, units which are used in "mission
>critical" applications are not the line interactive type as you seem
>to be thinking about above, instead are dual online conversion. I
>would assume that a UPS used for ILS equipment and radio
>communications for ATC would be a mission critical design as opposed
>to the less than reliable line interactive design. The dual online
>conversion types are actually running off battery and an oscillator
>all the time. There is no switching time.
>
> But hey... What do I know...

There are also "bridge" UPSes that store energy in flywheels and
ultracapacitors.

Don

[Newps]

Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:


>>UPS are usually designed to come online within a couple of cycles.
>
>
> I have never seen a UPS that takes more than a fraction of a cycle to
> transition to backup mode.


We have UPS's in the tower and TRACON. They work only when properly
maintained. Ours are not and it's a 50/50 bet that the entire
tower/TRACON will reset when they don't work. If they don't work it's a
10-15 second deal while everything comes back on line. That's why we
always manually turn on the back up generators whenever there are
thunderstorms in the area.




In fact, units which are used in "mission
> critical" applications are not the line interactive type as you seem
> to be thinking about above, instead are dual online conversion. I
> would assume that a UPS used for ILS equipment and radio
> communications for ATC would be a mission critical design as opposed
> to the less than reliable line interactive design.

They are not.

[Mike 'Flyin'8']

>
>There are also "bridge" UPSes that store energy in flywheels and
>ultracapacitors.

I'm no UPS or Power engineer, but isn't the flywheel bridge used to
"bridge" the time it takes for a generator to come online. I was not
aware that there are UPS's using this technology. While ultracaps do
store energy, they are typically only sized to maintain an output load
for a period of about 30 seconds in the flywheel bridge. This
application isn't really a UPS per se, though would be awesome to
prevent the failure Capt Doug speaks of. My specialty isn't UPS's,
rather telecom, so take it all with a grain of salt.

Reading Capt Dougs story makes one wonder about the reliability of the
"things" we rely on for our navigation, communications etc while
flying around. I am a new pilot and would be kinda bummed out if on
final at night and the runway lights went out. Though I probably
shouldn't be, I think I am dependent upon the runway edge lighting to
make a landing at night... Maybe I am wrong... but dang that would be
an eye opener for sure if those things went out on me while on short
final, or even worse, just seconds before touchdown.

Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

[KiloMike]

"KM" > wrote:
>
>Doug, come on dude.You posted some answers to a couple of technical
>questions on Boeings that didnt make any sense.My guess is that you
>hang out with pilots on layovers alot and pick their brains, and maybe
>even read through some manuals.I get the same thing at my work, and
>once I met a flight attendant who had 8000 hours.
>Furthermore, this is the internet, and how many people here know you
>personally?If you are who you say you are, I can respect that, but
>just tell me where you are based and the initials of your chief pilot
>and I will look it up and offer you an appology.
>KM
>PS how does an autopilot "mimic the ILS in smooth air"?????

I have not seen any useful information from you only sarcastic comments. Your posts are not even archived on google. Are you afraid of your own statements?

[Peter Dohm]

> >
> >There are also "bridge" UPSes that store energy in flywheels and
> >ultracapacitors.
>
> I'm no UPS or Power engineer, but isn't the flywheel bridge used to
> "bridge" the time it takes for a generator to come online. I was not
> aware that there are UPS's using this technology. While ultracaps do
> store energy, they are typically only sized to maintain an output load
> for a period of about 30 seconds in the flywheel bridge. This
> application isn't really a UPS per se, though would be awesome to
> prevent the failure Capt Doug speaks of. My specialty isn't UPS's,
> rather telecom, so take it all with a grain of salt.
>
> Reading Capt Dougs story makes one wonder about the reliability of the
> "things" we rely on for our navigation, communications etc while
> flying around. I am a new pilot and would be kinda bummed out if on
> final at night and the runway lights went out. Though I probably
> shouldn't be, I think I am dependent upon the runway edge lighting to
> make a landing at night... Maybe I am wrong... but dang that would be
> an eye opener for sure if those things went out on me while on short
> final, or even worse, just seconds before touchdown.
>
> Mike Alexander
> PP-ASEL
> Temecula, CA
> See my online aerial photo album at
> http://flying.4alexanders.com

I don't know whether a lot of the original story was tongue-in-cheek, or
whether it just got-a-little-better with each retelling; but I really can
not believe the part about the nav-aids going off line.

Basically, the runway and taxiway lighting systems need a lot of power, so I
would not be able to categorically deny any assertion. There are a lot of
budgetary and philosophical considerations involved, so a compromise between
cost and downtime is plausible--maybe even probable.

However, the nav-aids (localizer, glideslope, and marker beacons) require
very little power at each location--probably less than a personal computer.
And a TVOR requires very little more; so, like several others, I am willing
to postulate that the story, as told, is false.

Peter
Just my $0.02

[KM]

On Mar 9, 6:22 pm, "Capt.Doug" > wrote:
>
> Hmm... I don't recall you posting with this name for very long, and yet you
> have so much to offer the group (sarcasm).

How much are you offering this group Doug.Marginaly accurate posts
about airliners?
>
>
> Yes, I do, and yes, you are guessing.

See, I WAS right.
>
> Hmmm... I've never seen respect shown in such a manner.

Hmmm..., how much respect do you expect when you go around pretending
to be something you are not.
>
> Hmmm.... Give personal information to a suspected troll? I'm crazy, but
> not stupid. You go first. If you aren't in CASS, please don't bother.

Suspected troll? Doug, I am not the one who sings his posts "Capt".Is
mentioning a city code personal information.I am not the one
misrepresenting myself.You are kind of being a jerk here, but I will
tell you what, I am based in SLC and I am the 3rd guy on the list
(alphabetically) with these initials.If you email me I will give you
my name and ALPA number.
>
> Pay attention here- If the airplane is trimmed for flying the ILS, and the
> autopilot reverts to heading and pitch mode, the airplane will continue a
> course very close to the ILS while in calm air. Of course you knew this but
> wanted to see if I knew it, right?.

You pay attention here Doug, you dont make a very good liar.
>
> Bottom line is that I don't care to prove anything to you. I don't care what
> you think. You can cajole, provoke, instigate, flame, and irritate others
> here, but I don't care what you think. Have a good day.

Doug, Lighten up. No one is trying to provoke you.Some of your posts
do not cast the industry in a very favorable light (Like the post
about watching movies), and it is a little irritating when someone who
is masquerading as a airline pilot posts stupid stuff like this.I
would respectfully request that if you are going to continue these
kind of posts that you quit calling yourself "Captain" Doug.
> D.

KMU

[Don Tuite]

On Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:52:39 -0800, Mike 'Flyin'8'
> wrote:

>>
>>There are also "bridge" UPSes that store energy in flywheels and
>>ultracapacitors.
>
>I'm no UPS or Power engineer, but isn't the flywheel bridge used to
>"bridge" the time it takes for a generator to come online. I was not
>aware that there are UPS's using this technology. While ultracaps do
>store energy, they are typically only sized to maintain an output load
>for a period of about 30 seconds in the flywheel bridge. This
>application isn't really a UPS per se, though would be awesome to
>prevent the failure Capt Doug speaks of. My specialty isn't UPS's,
>rather telecom, so take it all with a grain of salt.
>
>Reading Capt Dougs story makes one wonder about the reliability of the
>"things" we rely on for our navigation, communications etc while
>flying around. I am a new pilot and would be kinda bummed out if on
>final at night and the runway lights went out. Though I probably
>shouldn't be, I think I am dependent upon the runway edge lighting to
>make a landing at night... Maybe I am wrong... but dang that would be
>an eye opener for sure if those things went out on me while on short
>final, or even worse, just seconds before touchdown.
>

Check out Pentadyne.com and activepower.com for flywheels.

Don

[Dave S]

KM wrote:
> On Mar 9, 9:39 am, Dave S > wrote:
>
>>KM wrote:
>>
>>
>>I dont know about the approach itself, but the power issue is very
>>believable. If the main transformer for the whole place let go, its VERY
>>likely that it takes 10 or more seconds for the generator to get up and
>>running. Also, if I understand right, the generators dont serve the
>>entire airport, just select facilities and one or two main runways.
>
>
> Dave, you also have to understand that the ATC facilities are at two
> separate locations.

I understand that perfectly. Tower in one place. VOR in another.
Localizer in a shack off the end of the runway. Glideslope in yet
another shack about 1000 feet beyond the threshhold off to the side.
These shacks and boxes may be hundreds or thousands of yards from each
other.

I also know that if the BIG transformer that steps down from the big
high tension lines lets go, as in.. the BIG one in the substation.. then
the whole grid downstream of that transformer drops offline. That can
include an airport.

I once was a volunteer fireman for about 10 years... in that time, we
had a big snake go slithering up equipment in a substation one night. I
guess the hum and warmth of the stuff was just tooo inviting to resist.
He completed a short circuit that took out power to thousands of homes,
caused a PCB oil fed fire and had the fire marshall's office initially
investigating it as a terrorist act until we found the charred skeleton
of the snake. (Pre 2001 but after 1994 - the first WTC). The transformer
bit is quite credible, and if you are ever near one when one lets go,
its an underwear changing event.

As for UPS and such.. I've seen UPS's on computers, and on some radio
gear, but nothing big enough to run an airport or hospital
stand-alone.. maybe there are enough little boxes in the shacks, but if
what NEWPS says is true, then I doubt it.

The local big city fire department, at one time, had a hardened concrete
2 story windowless dispatch center, with 2 sources of incoming power
on lines, PLUS a generator with over a week's worth of fuel, PLUS a bank
of batteries to run it all until the generator could kick over. That
struck me as robust...

But again.. something like this happens, with big iron yanking and
banking on the final approach course, after an explosion at an airport,
with a power loss.... and never heard a word about it except here.. hmmm..

[Anno v. Heimburg]

Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:

> While ultracaps do
> store energy, they are typically only sized to maintain an output load
> for a period of about 30 seconds in the flywheel bridge. *This
> application isn't really a UPS per se

Why not? As long as those 30 seconds suffice to e.g. get said generator
online, the system serves to maintin power in the event of a utility power
failure, making it an uninterruptible power supply.

Which part of UPS don't I get?

Anno.

[Mxsmanic]

KM writes:

> You posted some answers to a couple of technical
> questions on Boeings that didnt make any sense.

If giving a wrong answer makes someone a non-pilot, then I'm not sure that
_anyone_ on this newsgroup is a real pilot.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

KM writes:

> No one is trying to provoke you.

Calling someone a liar is patent provocation, as are all other personal
attacks.

> Some of your posts do not cast the industry in a very favorable
> light (Like the post about watching movies), and it is a little
> irritating when someone who is masquerading as a airline pilot
> posts stupid stuff like this.

Translation: If someone displeases you, you try to discredit him.

> I would respectfully request that if you are going to continue these
> kind of posts that you quit calling yourself "Captain" Doug.

The beauty of USENET is that your requests, respectful or not, can simply be
ignored.

There are many types of captains, most of whom are not necessarily airline
pilots. And anyone can call himself captain, and he won't be wrong.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Peter Dohm]

>
> > While ultracaps do
> > store energy, they are typically only sized to maintain an output load
> > for a period of about 30 seconds in the flywheel bridge. This
> > application isn't really a UPS per se
>
> Why not? As long as those 30 seconds suffice to e.g. get said generator
> online, the system serves to maintin power in the event of a utility power
> failure, making it an uninterruptible power supply.
>
> Which part of UPS don't I get?
>
> Anno.

The "U" part.

Uninteruptable means you never miss a cycle, the light bulbs never blink,
etc.

Uninteruptable supplies are now cheap for small systems and available, but
costly, when aplied on a grand scale. What you descrbed is a backup or
standby generator with automatic changeover.

If you think of the situation that the passengers might see inside the
terminal, most of the lighting and possibly the schedule monitors would be
backed up by the standby generator--because there are enough battery powered
emergency lights to prevent panic and/or injuries. OTOH, the computers
which drive the monitors would be on UPS. Today, most of the monitors would
probably be on UPS as well, since it is no longer expensive to do so--and
probably contributes to calm amoung the public in the terminal.

Peter

[Mxsmanic]

Peter Dohm writes:

> If you think of the situation that the passengers might see inside the
> terminal, most of the lighting and possibly the schedule monitors would be
> backed up by the standby generator--because there are enough battery powered
> emergency lights to prevent panic and/or injuries.

Do power failures normally cause panic?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Pixel Dent]

Newps > wrote:

> Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:
>
> >>UPS are usually designed to come online within a couple of cycles.
> >
> >
> > I have never seen a UPS that takes more than a fraction of a cycle to
> > transition to backup mode.
>
> We have UPS's in the tower and TRACON. They work only when properly
> maintained. Ours are not and it's a 50/50 bet that the entire
> tower/TRACON will reset when they don't work. If they don't work it's a
> 10-15 second deal while everything comes back on line. That's why we
> always manually turn on the back up generators whenever there are
> thunderstorms in the area.
>
> In fact, units which are used in "mission
> > critical" applications are not the line interactive type as you seem
> > to be thinking about above, instead are dual online conversion. I
> > would assume that a UPS used for ILS equipment and radio
> > communications for ATC would be a mission critical design as opposed
> > to the less than reliable line interactive design.
>
> They are not.

If you keep posting facts instead of idle speculation you're going to
ruin USENET.

[KM]

On Mar 10, 12:59 am, Dave S > wrote:
> KM wrote:
> > On Mar 9, 9:39 am, Dave S > wrote:
>
>
> > Dave, you also have to understand that the ATC facilities are at two
> > separate locations.
>
> I understand that perfectly. Tower in one place. VOR in another.

Dave, with all respect, you dont understand.Tower in one place,
approach controll facility in another.If you get a frequency change
and try unsucsessfuly to check on what are you gonna do? Go back to
the last assigned, right?I think the last thing you are going to do is
just keep motoring along and ignore turning to final and ignore your
TCAS.
>
> I once was a volunteer fireman for about 10 years... in that time, we
> had a big snake go slithering up equipment in a substation one night. I
> guess the hum and warmth of the stuff was just tooo inviting to resist.
> He completed a short circuit that took out power to thousands of homes,
> caused a PCB oil fed fire and had the fire marshall's office initially
> investigating it as a terrorist act until we found the charred skeleton
> of the snake. (Pre 2001 but after 1994 - the first WTC). The transformer
> bit is quite credible, and if you are ever near one when one lets go,
> its an underwear changing event.

Wow, being a fireman had to be pretty interesting.I have seen a
transformer let go once.I dont know what size it was but it was
spectacular.There are some plausable elements to "Capt" Dougs story,
and that is what makes it entertaining."Capt" Doug reminds me of Cliff
Claven, who was a charatcer on the TV show "Cheers".Cliff was a bar
fly who always had in depth knowlege about everything, but in real
life he was a mailman who lived with his mom.I am not trying to knock
"Captain" Doug, because Cliff's words of wisdom were always amusing
and he was one of the most popular characters on the show.Captain Doug
is just like Cliff in that he posts about stuff he knows nothing
about.But, many of his posts are plausible enough that they are
amusing and entertaining.I hope I havent chased the guy off by asking
what he really does for a living.The only sad part of this is the
couple of dickheads (Matthew Barrow and a guy going by Kilomike) who
thought this story was true.
>
... something like this happens, with big iron yanking and
> banking on the final approach course, after an explosion at an airport,
> with a power loss.... and never heard a word about it except here.. hmmm..

Delta had two incidents out of LAX, before I got there (G), and they
both made national headlines.A few years ago I had an incident that
caused a return to the airport, and with the advent of cell phones,
one of the local news stations actually called Delta for a comment
BEFORE whe could taxi to the gate and deplane and go downstairs to
talk to the chief pilots office about it.

[Jose]

> The only sad part of this is the
> couple of dickheads (Matthew Barrow and a guy going by Kilomike) who
> thought this story was true.

Well, I thought it was true. I've seen enough other kinds of things
gone spectacularly wrong due to a single dumb point of failure that it
would not surprise me if something like this were in fact true.

And actual accident reports of real crashes are far more incredible.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Mar 10, 1:04 pm, "KM" > wrote:
> On Mar 10, 12:59 am, Dave S > wrote:
>
> > KM wrote:
> > > On Mar 9, 9:39 am, Dave S > wrote:
>
> > > Dave, you also have to understand that the ATC facilities are at two
> > > separate locations.
>
> > I understand that perfectly. Tower in one place. VOR in another.
>
> Dave, with all respect, you dont understand.Tower in one place,
> approach controll facility in another.If you get a frequency change
> and try unsucsessfuly to check on what are you gonna do? Go back to
> the last assigned, right?I think the last thing you are going to do is
> just keep motoring along and ignore turning to final and ignore your
> TCAS.
>

Forgive me for asking, but if I can't raise tower and TCAS is going
off, and the CDI shows I still have not intercepted the localizer, my
first priority would be to fly the airplane on the last assigned
heading and figure out if the TCAS warning is real. Attempting to go
back to the last assigned frequency will be a low priority item, no?

[KM]

On Mar 10, 11:41 am, "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:
>
> Forgive me for asking, but if I can't raise tower and TCAS is going
> off, and the CDI shows I still have not intercepted the localizer, my
> first priority would be to fly the airplane on the last assigned
> heading and figure out if the TCAS warning is real. Attempting to go
> back to the last assigned frequency will be a low priority item, no?- Hide quoted text -
>
Andy, every situation is a little different but I really dont think
this story is plausible on several accounts.Let me answer your
question in several parts.First, in the event of lost comm you would
join the course you were being vectored for.The A340 crew would have a
flag on the ILS (The CDI changes color so this wouldnt go unnoticed)
but, the LNAV course to the airport would still be depicted on the ND
(I know every airline does things a little differently but I am sure
at least one of the pilots would be required to be in the MAP mode
during an approach).Another thing is that given the circumstances in
the story, the TCAS would probably issue 3 or 4 RAs in this timeframe
(In both jets no less).We are required to respond to an RA (and answer
to ATC later).I dont know how you would figure out if a TA or RA is
false. Also, if the pilots can see an explosion on the airport, it is
highly unlikely they would overshoot final while looking right at
it.The last part of your post is right on the $$$, they would aviate
and then communicate.
KM

[Newps]

The TCAS is real, you are required to follow the RA.




Andrew Sarangan wrote:

> Forgive me for asking, but if I can't raise tower and TCAS is going
> off, and the CDI shows I still have not intercepted the localizer, my
> first priority would be to fly the airplane on the last assigned
> heading and figure out if the TCAS warning is real. Attempting to go
> back to the last assigned frequency will be a low priority item, no?
>
>

[Dave S]

KM wrote:

>
> Dave, with all respect, you dont understand.

I understand fine. I am done however, trying to prove it to you. Got
better things to do.

[Blanche]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
>Peter Dohm writes:
>
>> If you think of the situation that the passengers might see inside the
>> terminal, most of the lighting and possibly the schedule monitors would be
>> backed up by the standby generator--because there are enough battery powered
>> emergency lights to prevent panic and/or injuries.
>
>Do power failures normally cause panic?

New York City, 1977
West Coast of USA, 1996

[Mxsmanic]

Blanche writes:

> New York City, 1977
> West Coast of USA, 1996

Since there are many thousands of power failures every day, I'll take this as
a "no" answer.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Matt Barrow]

"Mike 'Flyin'8'" > wrote in message
...
>>> An approach system doesn't have a UPS?
>>
>>The article said it took a few seconds to kick in.
>
> UPS's don't need time to "Kick In" That is why thet are called
> UnInteruptable Power Supplies.
>
> Generator power is another story. Typicall transfer times are
> generally in the neighborhood of 10 seconds from a cold start to power
> transfer.

So..was it really a UPS, or a backup generator? Remember, the story we got
was 2nd hand/anecdote.

[Mike Schumann]

The last people who tried to figure out if a TCAS warning was real were the
Russian pilots who had a midair over Switzerland a couple of years ago.
When you get a TCAS warning, you follow the TCAS instructions immediately.
Otherwise, you are taking your life in your hands.

Mike Schumann

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Mar 10, 1:04 pm, "KM" > wrote:
>> On Mar 10, 12:59 am, Dave S > wrote:
>>
>> > KM wrote:
>> > > On Mar 9, 9:39 am, Dave S > wrote:
>>
>> > > Dave, you also have to understand that the ATC facilities are at two
>> > > separate locations.
>>
>> > I understand that perfectly. Tower in one place. VOR in another.
>>
>> Dave, with all respect, you dont understand.Tower in one place,
>> approach controll facility in another.If you get a frequency change
>> and try unsucsessfuly to check on what are you gonna do? Go back to
>> the last assigned, right?I think the last thing you are going to do is
>> just keep motoring along and ignore turning to final and ignore your
>> TCAS.
>>
>
> Forgive me for asking, but if I can't raise tower and TCAS is going
> off, and the CDI shows I still have not intercepted the localizer, my
> first priority would be to fly the airplane on the last assigned
> heading and figure out if the TCAS warning is real. Attempting to go
> back to the last assigned frequency will be a low priority item, no?
>
>



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Capt.Doug]

>"KM" < wrote in message
> How much are you offering this group Doug.Marginaly accurate posts
> about airliners?

I admit I don't offer the spelling errors that you do,

>The Civet is for 25L not the right.
>KU

As compared to inaccurate posts like yours - Page 10-2A for KLAX in my
Jepps shows transitions for runways 24R, 24L, 25R, and 25L. Runway 25L was
closed that night for maintenance. You can't even get your initials right.
Is it KU, KM, KMU, or something else?

> See, I WAS right.

Let's see.... I talk to pilots on layovers and read manuals. That makes
me a flight attendent. You are the winner... and still guessing.

> Suspected troll? Doug, I am not the one who sings his posts "Capt".Is
> mentioning a city code personal information.I am not the one
> misrepresenting myself.You are kind of being a jerk here, but I will
> tell you what, I am based in SLC and I am the 3rd guy on the list
> (alphabetically) with these initials.If you email me I will give you
> my name and ALPA number.

Just remove 'the' from the reply address. If I'm being a jerk, it's simply
because I treat people the way they treat me. I'm responding to you in the
manner you responded to me. Frankly, I expect more from someone who claims
to be an ALPA member. You read a couple of my posts and assume I'm a liar.
When I do the same to you, you freak out. You can dish it out but you can't
take it. Debating the subject of a post is expected since we come here for a
form of hangar flying. However, you overstep the bounds of good taste by
attacking posters personally. I expect more from someone who claims to be a
professional.

> Doug, Lighten up. No one is trying to provoke you.

To which I offer a sample of your writing-

>he does know a bit about airliners, but his posts show a
>lack of understanding of enough of the detail to actually fly
>one.Judging from his posts I would say he is probably a flight
>attendant at NWA who flys on the side.And I would say he spends alot
>of time talking to pilots about flying.

Hmm.... You call someone a liar but deny that you are provoking. Do you
really consider yourself to be a professional? You don't post in a mature
manner. Such behavior on the line around here would get you on a bunch of
no-fly lists.

>Some of your posts
> do not cast the industry in a very favorable light (Like the post
> about watching movies),

Where is the key that unlocks the eyes of the blind? Many things in the
industry aren't perfect. Don't like it, don't read it.

<and it is a little irritating when someone who
> is masquerading as a airline pilot posts stupid stuff like this.I
> would respectfully request that if you are going to continue these
> kind of posts that you quit calling yourself "Captain" Doug.

Let's hope you are man enough to offer a public apology when you discover
the truth that is right in front of you. I also hope that you learn what
respect is.

BTW, I did some checking. My professional pilot friends from SJC are not
aware of any airlines with transport category jets having a pilot base in
SJC. Is that ALPA number you claim to have current and in good standing?

D.

[Capt.Doug]

>"Newps" wrote in message > The TCAS is real, you are required to follow the
RA.

RAs are inhibited below a certain altitude in landing mode.

D.

[KM]

On Mar 11, 5:29 pm, "Capt.Doug" > wrote:

Hey, its my old budy Captain "Dont call me Cliff Claven" Doug.I am
glad I didnt scare you off by asking what you do for a living.

>
> I admit I don't offer the spelling errors that you do,

What can I say I am a product of the public school sistem and I ant
figered out which way to turn on that spell checker thing.
>
> Let's see.... I talk to pilots on layovers and read manuals. That makes
> me a flight attendent. You are the winner... and still guessing.

Am I getting hotter?
>

> However, you overstep the bounds of good taste by
> attacking posters personally. I expect more from someone who claims to be a
> professional.

Now Clifford Douglas Claven, you listen to me.You are overstepping the
bounds of good taste by impersonating an airline pilot.You are showing
the people on this list a lack of respect by insulting their
intelegence.Just look at the Zany story that started this thread.I
would expect more from a profesional!

> > Doug, Lighten up. No one is trying to provoke you.
>
> To which I offer a sample of your writing-

Leave my writing out of this.Its YOUR writing that is in question.You
post stuff about airliners that is obviously joking and then you take
issue when everyone laughs.If I were you, I would be proud of that.I
get a huge kick out of your posts.The only sad part is that you
dogidly cling to the belief that you fly heavies for a living.

You don't post in a mature
> manner.

Dougey, I never claimed to be mature.I will claim that if you can
prove to us that you have flown 747s and Airbuses I will buy you a new
car.
>
> Where is the key that unlocks the eyes of the blind? Many things in the
> industry aren't perfect. Don't like it, don't read it.

Lose those darn keys again?
>
>
I did some checking. My professional pilot friends from SJC are not
> aware of any airlines with transport category jets having a pilot base in
> SJC. Is that ALPA number you claim to have current and in good standing?
>
Dougieeeeee, there is the Clff Claven thing again.I posted Salt Lake
City not SJC you silly goose.Delta airlines does in fact have a base
there.Look up K. Urban on the list 737-800.Now who do you work for?
Now Doug, please take what I am about to post to heart.I know we have
both had a laugh at each others expense but this is seroius now.I
enjoy backwards humor in your posts, but you probably dont want to get
caught impersonating a captain.If anyone at your work found out about
this there would be alot of ostrisism.You would be going out on
layovers all alone and there wouldnt be much of any discusion in your
cockpit.Other pilots are not going to have your sense of humor and it
is just not worth it.

[Newps]

Capt.Doug wrote:

>>"Newps" wrote in message > The TCAS is real, you are required to follow the
>
> RA.
>
> RAs are inhibited below a certain altitude in landing mode.

Yes, I was aware of that. What is that altitude on say an ILS? Is that
altitude an FAA mandated altitude, the TCAS manufacturers preset specs
or a company ops spec?

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Newps > wrote:

> Capt.Doug wrote:
>
> >>"Newps" wrote in message > The TCAS is real, you are required to follow the
> >
> > RA.
> >
> > RAs are inhibited below a certain altitude in landing mode.
>
> Yes, I was aware of that. What is that altitude on say an ILS? Is that
> altitude an FAA mandated altitude, the TCAS manufacturers preset specs
> or a company ops spec?

The RA and TA inhibits are specified in the AC for TCAS (AC 20-151)


INHIBIT PARAMETERS

Increase Descent RA Inhibited below 1650 ft AGL while climbing and
inhibited below 1450 ft AGL while descending.

Descend RA Inhibited below 1200 ft AGL while climbing and
inhibited below 1000 ft AGL while descending.

TA Voice Messages Inhibited below 400 ft AGL while descending and
inhibited below 600 ft AGL while climbing.

RAs Inhibited below 1100 ft AGL while climbing, and
inhibited below 900 ft AGL while descending.
(TCAS automatically reverts to TA only).

Self-Test Can be inhibited when airborne.

Advisory Priority Automatically reverts to TA ONLY when higher
priority advisories (such as GPWS/TAWS and
Windshear) occur.

Climb RA Can be inhibited, based upon aircraft performance
capability.

Increase Climb RA Can be inhibited, based upon aircraft performance
capability.

--
Bob Noel
(gave up lookingn for a particular sig the lawyer will)

[KM]

On Mar 11, 8:02 pm, Bob Noel >
wrote:
> In article >,
>
> Newps > wrote:
> > Capt.Doug wrote:
>
> > >>"Newps" wrote in message > The TCAS is real, you are required to follow the
>
> > > RA.
>
> > > RAs are inhibited below a certain altitude in landing mode.
>
> > Yes, I was aware of that. What is that altitude on say an ILS? Is that
> > altitude an FAA mandated altitude, the TCAS manufacturers preset specs
> > or a company ops spec?
>
> The RA and TA inhibits are specified in the AC for TCAS (AC 20-151)
>
> INHIBIT PARAMETERS
>
> Increase Descent RA Inhibited below 1650 ft AGL while climbing and
> inhibited below 1450 ft AGL while descending.
>
> Descend RA Inhibited below 1200 ft AGL while climbing and
> inhibited below 1000 ft AGL while descending.
>
> TA Voice Messages Inhibited below 400 ft AGL while descending and
> inhibited below 600 ft AGL while climbing.
>
> RAs Inhibited below 1100 ft AGL while climbing, and
> inhibited below 900 ft AGL while descending.
> (TCAS automatically reverts to TA only).
>
> Self-Test Can be inhibited when airborne.
>
> Advisory Priority Automatically reverts to TA ONLY when higher
> priority advisories (such as GPWS/TAWS and
> Windshear) occur.
>
> Climb RA Can be inhibited, based upon aircraft performance
> capability.
>
> Increase Climb RA Can be inhibited, based upon aircraft performance
> capability.
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> (gave up lookingn for a particular sig the lawyer will)

Bob, thanks for pointing all of this out.I think Newps was asking more
in a retorical sense because an inhibited RA does not really apply to
this story.
Imagine that if the A340 crew never joined the LOC then they would not
have started a desent.This would put them at 1500 to 1700 AGL (typical
for a vector on to final from the north in LAX).Now if they passed 200
feet below (The aleged) Captain Doug's budy that would put his budy at
1700 to 1900 AGL (Aprox), so an inhibited RA would be a mute point.

[Capt.Doug]

>"KM" wrote in message> Leave my writing out of this.Its YOUR writing that
is in question.You
> post stuff about airliners that is obviously joking and then you take
> issue when everyone laughs.If I were you, I would be proud of that.I
> get a huge kick out of your posts.The only sad part is that you
> dogidly cling to the belief that you fly heavies for a living.

Your writing WAS in question. Most everyone here can see through your
childish accusations. Your writing has seen to that. I merely egg you on for
entertainment. However now you bore me with the same material post after
post. Please do try to come up with some new personal attacks.

> Dougey, I never claimed to be mature.I will claim that if you can
> prove to us that you have flown 747s and Airbuses I will buy you a new
> car.

I have flown Boeings and Airbusses, not heavies. I know it's hard for you,
being a product of public schools and all, but please keep the facts
straight. I prefer Lambourghini.

> Dougieeeeee, there is the Clff Claven thing again.I posted Salt Lake
> City not SJC you silly goose.Delta airlines does in fact have a base
> there.Look up K. Urban on the list 737-800.

I'm still waiting for that e-mail. Perhaps you could include the phone
number for your ALPA pro standards officer and save me the time of looking
it up.

> but you probably dont want to get
> caught impersonating a captain.If anyone at your work found out about
> this there would be alot of ostrisism. You would be going out on
> layovers all alone and there wouldnt be much of any discusion in your
> cockpit.Other pilots are not going to have your sense of humor and it
> is just not worth it.

"in your cockpit"? "Other pilots"? So now you are back-pedaling and
admitting that I am an airline pilot. Is that as close as you can get to an
apology? Remember, I prefer Lambourghini.

D.

[mike regish]

When did this happen?

Scary story.

mike

"Capt.Doug" > wrote in message
...
>I went downstairs to the hotel restaurant and ran into a friend who
> recounted a recent experience he had. He was inbound to LAX on the Civet
> arrival to rwy 25R at night. His FO coupled the autopilot to the ILS about

[mike regish]

Capt. Doug has credentials and credibility as well as a long history on this
group.

Do you?

mike

"F. Reid" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Stupid response?Did I not post that I got a good laugh?Pretty much all
> of this story defies common sense to the point I thought it was a
> joke.But I guess you would rather perpetuate internet folklore.
> Classic troll my ass.Why dont you go away jerk off.
>

[KM]

On Mar 11, 11:31 pm, "Capt.Doug" > wrote:
>
> I have flown Boeings and Airbusses, not heavies. I know it's hard for you,
> being a product of public schools and all, but please keep the facts
> straight. I prefer Lambourghini.

Douglas, you rascal, flying these things as a flight attendant doesnt
count.Lambourghini? Jese dude, I can barely even spell that let alone
go out and buy one.I have been through two masive rounds of
concesions.I was thinking more along the lines of a Kia.Its cheaper
AND easier to spell.
>
> Is that as close as you can get to an
> apology? Remember, I prefer Lambourghini.

Yes Doug, I am apologizing. I am sorry that you cant tell us who you
work for.Now in all seriousness Douglas, for this story to be true, it
would pretty much have to amount to careless and wreckless operation
by two airlines crews. This makes us look stupid.Is that what you
really want? Joking is one thing,But there are people on this list who
do not have enough of a backround in aviation to understand what goes
on in the cockpit of an airliner and trying to con these people is
just not right.
K Urban
>
> D.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2007-03-10, Dave S > wrote:
> I once was a volunteer fireman for about 10 years... in that time, we
> had a big snake go slithering up equipment in a substation one night.

The 'can on the pole' transformers can go with a pretty big bang too.

One night, I got back from Brazoria with a couple of friends. I was
flying a Piper Arrow - I'd just let my passenger out, and was standing
on the wing walk.

Suddenly, a brilliant flash got my attention as one of these pole
transformers exploded - a big flash, a huge shower of sparks like a
large firework, followed by a loud 'kerpow' as the sound finally
reached us. All the lights went off, and we had to put everything away
with only our feeble flashlights for lighting.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Stefan]

KM schrieb:

> Lambourghini? Jese dude, I can barely even spell that

Don't feel bad: He can't, either.

[KM]

On Mar 11, 11:31 pm, "Capt.Doug" > wrote:

>
> I'm still waiting for that e-mail. Perhaps you could include the phone
> number for your ALPA pro standards officer and save me the time of looking
> it up.

Ill save you the time Doug.To respect the guys privacy, I wont mention
his name, but his intials are KH.Log onto the ALPA website, go to the
council 81 (SLC) homepage and there is his email.It so happens that I
have flown with him several times so he would be well qualified to
tell you what a jerk I am.
>
K. Urban

[Matt Barrow]

"Capt.Doug" > wrote in message
...
> >"KM" wrote in message >I went back and read some of "Capt Doug's"
>> posts and he does know a bit about airliners, but his posts show a
>> lack of understanding of enough of the detail to actually fly
>> one.Judging from his posts I would say he is probably a flight
>> attendant at NWA who flys on the side.And I would say he spends alot
>> of time talking to pilots about flying.
>
> For those of you who know me personally, this answers itself.
>
Cap'n, he's been trying to extract his foot from his mouth for several
posts.

[Newps]

KM wrote:

>
> Bob, thanks for pointing all of this out.I think Newps was asking more
> in a retorical sense because an inhibited RA does not really apply to
> this story.
>

I was asking because I knew there were limits programmed in but didn't
know for sure where they were. We had a discussion about this at the
tower a couple of weeks ago about aircraft getting an RA due to an
aircraft on the taxiway holding short. I knew the aircraft wasn't
getting an RA, a TA perhaps.

[Montblack]

("KM"wrote)
> Douglas, you rascal, flying these things as a flight attendant doesnt
> count.Lambourghini? Jese dude, I can barely even spell that let alone go
> out and buy one.I have been through two masive rounds of concesions.I was
> thinking more along the lines of a Kia.Its cheaper AND easier to spell.


Well, I finally figured it out.

The space bar is the one keyboard pad without any writing on it, telling you
what it's used for.


Mont Black :-)

[Al G[_1_]]

"Capt.Doug" > wrote in message
...
>I went downstairs to the hotel restaurant and ran into a friend who
> recounted a recent experience he had. He was inbound to LAX on the Civet
> arrival to rwy 25R at night. His FO coupled the autopilot to the ILS about
> 30 miles out. Approach control pointed out traffic from the northeast that
> was to join the ILS for the north side's parallel runway. Everything was
> routine. They were told to switch over to the tower's frequency. Then they
> saw a bright flash from an explosion on the north side of the terminal.
> Both
> of them thought there had been a crash.
>
> From here everything happened rapidly. They were staring so hard out the
> front that they didn't notice the parallel traffic went through the
> northside localizer and was heading right at them. Then the TCAS went
> crazy
> telling them to pull up. Then the autopilot let out with it's loud series
> of
> chirps. Then the captain yelled at the FO to pull up because there was no
> response to the TCAS. The FO yelled back that he thought the captain had
> the
> controls. The captain looked out his window to see an A-340 less than 200'
> below them and it was racked up at big bank angle trying to get back on
> final for the north runway. Then a frantic radio call came from ATC asking
> if they were still there.
>
> The subsequent investigation revealed an interesting chain of events. The
> flash came from an exploding electrical transformer. The localizer,
> glideslope, and ATC radios failed momentarily until back-up power came
> online. When the localizer signal failed, the A-340's autopilot didn't
> have
> anything to intercept and stayed on the intercept angle, which is why it
> went through the final approach into the south runway's final approach.
> When
> the localizer failed, my friend's autopilot didn't kick-off, but changed
> from approach mode into heading and pitch mode which mimics the ILS in
> smooth air. The FO heard the autopilot chirps along with the TCAS warnings
> and figured the captain had assumed control from him. The captain heard
> the
> same noises but figured the FO had kicked off the AP to perform the TCAS
> instructions.
>
> It was close. Stay safe.
>
> D.
>
>

A Chain indeed, and well met.

That is just EXACTLY how this stuff sneaks up on you. One minute you're
on top of it, the next you're asking What?, Huh?. In hindsight, everything
is clear, but at the moment it is "who's on first".

Al G

[KM]

On Mar 12, 4:57 am, "mike regish" > wrote:
> When did this happen?

April fools day.

>
> Scary story.
>

[KM]

On Mar 12, 4:59 am, "mike regish" > wrote:
> Capt. Doug has credentials and credibility as well as a long history on this
> group.
>
> Do you?
>
> mike
>

Capt Doug has a long history of pulling your twinkie.Mike, if you
think he is credible why does he not have a valid email address?Why
can he not tell us who he works for?I have come onto this list from
time to time over the years because I am on other Google lists and I
found this one by accident one day.I fly GA on my time off so it has
held my interest.Some of my freinds are GA pilots and I have alot of
respect for people who fly just for fun. I enjoy reading some of the
threads and the links that people post.I am always looking for
interesteing places to fly to.Prior to this thread I have NEVER
claimed to be anything, but as soon as someone ask, I posted what I do
and who I work for.I also have a valid email address for this list.The
intrepid capt doug cannot do you the courtesy of an honest answer.Why
dont you go through his posts (Especially the ones about Boeing
products) and tell me which ones are true.Does his outlandish story
make sense to you?Why didnt we hear about it in the news? If it was
invetigated, there would be a link to the NTSB report.Why has that not
been posted?
So I dont have a history because I dont post much.Does that mean I
shouldnt take issue when someone casts my profesion in a bad light?
It is kinda funny that Doug called my profesionalism into question,
and yet HE is the on posting about reading the newspaper and whatching
movies in the cockpit.

[Capt.Doug]

>"KM" wrote in message
>I have been through two masive rounds of
> concesions.I was thinking more along the lines of a Kia.Its cheaper
> AND easier to spell.

Kia? Is that like a Yugo? Maybe you'd better keep it. My second job pays
decent.

> for this story to be true, it
> would pretty much have to amount to careless and wreckless operation
> by two airlines crews. This makes us look stupid.Is that what you
> really want? Joking is one thing,But there are people on this list who
> do not have enough of a backround in aviation to understand what goes
> on in the cockpit of an airliner

Now, now... We both know that there are pilots in our exalted ranks who
should've been weeded out sometime ago. A few of my colleagues are just
plain stupid. It isn't my style to sweep things under the carpet in order to
maintain an image. I tell them to their face that they are stupid, in a
diplomatic way. I can understand your desire to defend our profession from
assaults by ignorant persons, but I prefer to open things up for discussion
so that the newbies are exposed to alternative viewpoints before they form
opinions.

I recounted the story as it was told to me. I am sure some of it is
embellished, but the incident did take place. You are familiar with ASAP?
That's as much as I can say until the ERC issues a final report. I will say
that some of your misunderstandings may have to do with thinking that Airbus
avionics have the same cues and terminology as Boeing's. I am told that
there are differences but I haven't flown a Boeing with full EFIS.

D.

[Capt.Doug]

>"KM" wrote in message
> Ill save you the time Doug.To respect the guys privacy, I wont mention
> his name, but his intials are KH.Log onto the ALPA website, go to the
> council 81 (SLC) homepage and there is his email.It so happens that I
> have flown with him several times so he would be well qualified to
> tell you what a jerk I am.

Watching this group, and also r.a.homebuilt, I have seen what can happen
when someone takes umbrage to another. There are still pending lawsuits
flying between a couple of posters in r.a.h. Personally I have better things
to do than taking the time to explain to my chief pilot why some bozo poster
is trying to cause me trouble by calling him with some silly argument. You
may laugh because that may not be your intentions, but I have seen it happen
to others here several times. For that reason, I don't post personal
information, and I caution you to do the same.

As for your accusations, I am supremely confidant in my professional
standing in the pilot community. I am also supremely confidant that I am a
bigger jerk than you could ever hope to be. If you still don't believe me,
I'll call my buds at your airline and we can meet.

D.

[Capt.Doug]

>"KM" wrote in message
> It is kinda funny that Doug called my profesionalism into question,
> and yet HE is the on posting about reading the newspaper and whatching
> movies in the cockpit.

You never even once read a newspaper or magazine while in cruise flight?
Be honest.

D.

[Mxsmanic]

It's not the credibility of a poster that counts, it's the facts. When in
doubt, verify. And when reading something on USENET, _always_ verify before
making practical use of anything you've read. Credentialism is dangerous.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Capt.Doug writes:

> Watching this group, and also r.a.homebuilt, I have seen what can happen
> when someone takes umbrage to another. There are still pending lawsuits
> flying between a couple of posters in r.a.h. Personally I have better things
> to do than taking the time to explain to my chief pilot why some bozo poster
> is trying to cause me trouble by calling him with some silly argument. You
> may laugh because that may not be your intentions, but I have seen it happen
> to others here several times. For that reason, I don't post personal
> information, and I caution you to do the same.

Any call to anyone about USENET posts is usually just dust in the wind, but
unfortunately people who know nothing about USENET tend to take such calls
much more seriously, and assume that Something Terrible has happened when they
learn of someone posting to a newsgroup. Overreaction is the norm.

Then again, overreaction is the norm for many USENET posters, too, especially
the newbies.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[mike regish]

Why would there be an NTSB report?

I'm starting to think you might be Bertie reincarnated.

mike

"KM" > wrote in message
ups.com...

>Why didnt we hear about it in the news? If it was
> invetigated, there would be a link to the NTSB report.Why has that not
> been posted?

[Jimbob Jumpback]

On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:43:23 -0000, Dylan Smith
> wrote:

>On 2007-03-10, Dave S > wrote:
>> I once was a volunteer fireman for about 10 years... in that time, we
>> had a big snake go slithering up equipment in a substation one night.
>
>The 'can on the pole' transformers can go with a pretty big bang too.
>
>One night, I got back from Brazoria with a couple of friends. I was
>flying a Piper Arrow - I'd just let my passenger out, and was standing
>on the wing walk.
>
>Suddenly, a brilliant flash got my attention as one of these pole
>transformers exploded - a big flash, a huge shower of sparks like a
>large firework, followed by a loud 'kerpow' as the sound finally
>reached us. All the lights went off, and we had to put everything away
>with only our feeble flashlights for lighting.
What you witnessed was likely an explosive line fuse. These fuses are
usually mounted on the same pole as the transformer. Transformers
rarely explode, but it does happen. Usually though, the line current
exceeds the rating of the fuse and the fuse explodes to open the
circuit. This prevents the transformer from exploding.
--

Jim in Houston

Nurse's creed: Fill what's empty, empty what's full,
and scratch where it itches!! RN does NOT mean Real Nerd!

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On 9 Mar, 04:34, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Jay Honeck writes:
> > We had a Cherokee Six declare an emergency here last week. He was on
> > an Angel Flight from Texas, and started icing up badly. Then his
> > engine lost power (carb ice?) and he was down to 200' AGL before he
> > was able to restart it.
>
> > He got down okay, badly shaken. The guy didn't even have a coat --
> > one of the line guys lent him his...
>
> What about his passenger(s)?

what about the fact that the automatics fjukked up wannabe boi?



Bertie