Re: Hughes racer record 352mph 1935

[Chris W]

John Ross wrote:

> On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:32:13 GMT, Chris W > wrote:
>
> >What I want to know is why didn't Hughes go after *that* record in his
> >land plane? What was it about the sea planes that they were so much
> >faster than the land planes?
>
> IIRC the Schneider cup rules specified all entrants HAD to be
> seaplanes, so that's what were built. I don't think the Hughes racer
> could have taken the record if pontoons had been built for it.
>
> JR

What I meant is why couldn't Hughes build a land plane that would go faster
than the fastest sea plane?

--
Chris Woodhouse
Oklahoma City

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

[dhb]

Sure, he could have. But where would he fly it? There were no runways
as long as the ocean. Very big engines mean lots of weight, means that
no mere mile long runway would be enough. There weren't many mile
long runways at airports.


In article >, Chris W > wrote:
>John Ross wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:32:13 GMT, Chris W > wrote:
>>
>> >What I want to know is why didn't Hughes go after *that* record in his
>> >land plane? What was it about the sea planes that they were so much
>> >faster than the land planes?
>>
>> IIRC the Schneider cup rules specified all entrants HAD to be
>> seaplanes, so that's what were built. I don't think the Hughes racer
>> could have taken the record if pontoons had been built for it.
>>
>> JR
>
>What I meant is why couldn't Hughes build a land plane that would go faster
>than the fastest sea plane?
>

[Kevin Horton]

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:32:13 +0000, Chris W wrote:

> Felger Carbon wrote:
>
>> The newpaper stories on the replica stated that the original Hughes
>> racer established a 352mph world record (sort of true) in 1935, making
>> Howard Hughes the world's fastest pilot (false).
>>
>> In the much-earlier 1930's, the Italian Schneider Cup seaplane flew to
>> a world record 403mph. The 1935 Hughes racer record of 352 was a
>> record for landplanes. Landplanes did not surpass the seaplane record
>> until the Germans got serious about developing fast, modern fighter
>> aircraft in the later 1930's.
>>
>> Them Schneider Cup airplanes wuz _fast_ muthas, esp. considering the
>> huge pontoons were not retractible!!
>
> What I want to know is why didn't Hughes go after *that* record in his
> land plane? What was it about the sea planes that they were so much
> faster than the land planes?
>
> --
> Chris Woodhouse

Actually, the world record was 440 mph, set by the Macchi MC.72 in 1934.
There is no way the Hughes 1B could come anywhere close to that record -it
would have needed much more power. The MC.72 had about 3000 hp on tap.

http://members01.chello.se/ipmsairrace/records.htm
http://aeroweb.lucia.it/en/history/mc72.htm

--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/

[Felger Carbon]

"dhb" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Sure, he could have. But where would he fly it? There were no
runways
> as long as the ocean. Very big engines mean lots of weight, means
that
> no mere mile long runway would be enough. There weren't many mile
> long runways at airports.

At that time, there were no production aircraft engines available
_anywhere in the world_ with the needed power. Only race-tuned
prototype engines for national-team Schneider cup racers. It took a
German national-effort race-tuned DB601 engine for a landplane to
finally surpass the seaplanes in 1939.

In America, there weren't even any of those prototype engines.

[Jay]

> April 10, 1933: 423.82mph by an Italian Machii-Castold MC.72 seaplane
> with two engines driving two contra-rotating props. The engines were
> in-line, not side by side. The Italians considered the two engines a
> single unit, the AS6.

Apparently there was some rule that said you could only have a single
engine?

> In WW2, the British firm Napier developed the 24-cylinder Sabre engine
> (effectively two in-line 12-cylinder engines!) for the Hawker Tempest.
> On the bench, this engine easily developed 3,750hp. However,
> Rolls-Royce persons were running the Brit war effort and the Sabre was
> deliberately crippled so it only developed 3,055hp. Despite this
> crippling, the Tempest/Sabre was the only piston-engined aircraft that
> could chase down V1 missiles from behind without diving.
>
> At the same time, the US Navy needed a fast fighter to chase down
> Japanese kamikazis. They took the F4U Corsair, with a two-row R2800
> round engine and put in an R-4360 three-row engine. The resulting
> hot-rod was called the F2G. This engine, tuned for racing after WW2,
> developed 4,500hp. It was twice the size of the liquid-cooled
> 24-cylinder Napier Sabre.
>
> If you wanna fly fast, you need a _lot_ of horsepower! ;-)

And an in-line engine arrangement does wonders as well for drag!
Someone tell me those aren't surface radiators on the Italian
Machii-Castold MC.72 seaplane?!?!?!?

http://inline_twin.tripod.com/concept.html

Regards!

[Felger Carbon]

> "Jay" > wrote in message
> Apparently there was some rule that said you could only have a
> single engine?

Not that I know of. The point was that I was trying to identify the
engines used by these aircraft, and the Italians had assigned the
single identifier "AS6" to the two engines, whose crankshafts rotated
in opposite directions.

> > In WW2, the British firm Napier developed the 24-cylinder Sabre
>> engine (effectively two in-line 12-cylinder engines!) for the
Hawker
>> Tempest. On the bench, this engine easily developed 3,750hp.

> And an in-line engine arrangement does wonders as well for drag!

Especially liquid-cooled in-line engine(s), which have little frontal
area.

> Someone tell me those aren't surface radiators on the Italian
> Machii-Castold MC.72 seaplane?!?!?!?

They are indeed radiators. In fact, the MC.72 was at the time called
a "flying radiator" because of the amount of cooling needed by those
two engines. ;-)

[[email protected]]

>>> IIRC the Schneider cup rules specified all entrants HAD to be
>>> seaplanes, so that's what were built. I don't think the Hughes racer
>>> could have taken the record if pontoons had been built for it.
>>> JR
What I meant is why couldn't Hughes build a land plane that would go
faster
>>than the fastest sea plane?
************************************************
This question can be answered by considering the record holder, the
Macchi-Castoldi MC-72. This airplane was designed in 1931 for the
Schneider Cup. It has two Fiat V-12 engines in tandem. The
propellers are ground adjustable and are contra-rotating. This
airplane made one run of 447 mph. You can see this airplane at the
Italian Air Force Museum. Directions follow:
1. Go to Rome
2. Rent a car with your local U.S.A. driver's license.
3. Drive to Lake Bracciano, about fifty miles from Rome.
4. Go to the Italian Air Force Museum. They have abundant exhibits
and a nice snack bar. There is no charge for admission.
5. There are motels in the local region. They have a lot of foreign
visitors as there is an auto and motorcycle race track nearby.
6. A nearby town is Anguillara. It is incredibl;y beautiful and they
have high quality and low cost restaurants.
7. After Lake Bracciano, go to the town of Sutri and see the historic
amphitheater and Mitreo. Sutri is the home town of Pilate, the guy of
Jesus' trial.
jgraham