lights and transponder

[Robert Loer]

Can someone simplify this answer for me me, please as it is nearing decision
time on my project?

With no lights and or transponder, where will I not be able to fly?

Thanks guys.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 23:14:48 -0800, "Robert Loer" > wrote:

>Can someone simplify this answer for me me, please as it is nearing decision
>time on my project?
>
>With no lights and or transponder, where will I not be able to fly?

In Class B or C airspace, or at night. If your plane has an engine-driven
electrical system, you also will not be able to fly within the 30 nm Class B
"Veil."

Ron Wanttaja

[Doug Palmer]

A little more specifically: Because of the lack of a transponder, you will
not be able to fly in class A, B or C airspace or within the lateral
dimsensions of B&C airspace, Unable to fly over 10,000 feet MSL unless you
are less than 2500 ft agl, not able to cross the ADIZ. In spite of all this
if you make prior arrangements with the controllers in the B or C airspace,
you can arrange to enter that space.

(a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not
conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment
installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any
class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude
reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112
(Mode S).

(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no
person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs
(b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with
an operable coded radar beacon transponder having either Mode 3/A 4096 code
capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by
ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the
code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S interrogations in accordance
with the applicable provisions specified in TSO C-112, and that aircraft is
equipped with automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode
C capability that automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by
transmitting pressure altitude information in 100-foot increments. This
requirement applies--


(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;

(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an
airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward
to 10,000 feet MSL;

(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft
which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical
system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system
installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within
30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part
provided such operations are conducted--
(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and
(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C
airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is
lower; and

(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the
lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an
airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and

(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally
certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not
subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or
glider----

(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of
Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below
2,500 feet above the surface; and

(ii) In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a
10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2 of
this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the lateral
boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for that airport.
(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in
paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person
operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained
in accordance with Sec. 91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder,
including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate
code or as assigned by ATC.


(d) ATC authorized deviations. Requests for ATC authorized deviations
must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned
airspace within the time periods specified as follows:


(1) For operation of an aircraft with an operating transponder but
without operating automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a
Mode C capability, the request may be made at any time.

(2) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative transponder to
the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to
proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the request
may be made at any time.

(3) For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with a
transponder, the request must be made at least one hour before the proposed
operation.




"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 23:14:48 -0800, "Robert Loer" >
> wrote:
>
>>Can someone simplify this answer for me me, please as it is nearing
>>decision
>>time on my project?
>>
>>With no lights and or transponder, where will I not be able to fly?
>
> In Class B or C airspace, or at night. If your plane has an engine-driven
> electrical system, you also will not be able to fly within the 30 nm Class
> B
> "Veil."
>
> Ron Wanttaja

[Scott[_1_]]

Technically....

You will be able to fly in Class B or C IF you get prior permission via
telephone or possibly via radio if you have a handheld or panel mount.
Flew my Corben (no lights, no generator, no transponder, Do have a
handheld Nav/Com) into Springfield, IL Class C several years ago.
Stopped about 45 minutes out, called them on the phone. They said go
ahead and call on radio about 20 miles out. Did that, they told me to
take a left turn for radar ident, about 1/2 second later they said radar
confirmed, y'all c'mon in! They even routed a pair of Guard F-16s out
around me as I got into the pattern :)


As Ron says, if you have no engine driven generator, you can fly in the
MODE C VEIL but outside of Class B airspace (under it) unless you have
communicated with the owners of the airspace prior to entering it.

No lights? No night flying.

Scott




Ron Wanttaja wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 23:14:48 -0800, "Robert Loer" > wrote:
>
>
>>Can someone simplify this answer for me me, please as it is nearing decision
>>time on my project?
>>
>>With no lights and or transponder, where will I not be able to fly?
>
>
> In Class B or C airspace, or at night. If your plane has an engine-driven
> electrical system, you also will not be able to fly within the 30 nm Class B
> "Veil."
>
> Ron Wanttaja

[R. Lee Jarvis]

I fly a Luscombe 8A with no electrical system, thus of course without lights
or transponder. I must land before sundown, but other than that I have no
problem.

Without an engine driven electrical system, I'm legal to fly within the mode
C veil, though I cannot enter B or C airspace without prior notice (1 hour).
Having said that, I'd also say that being legal isn't necessarily being
wise. There are reasons that transponders are ordinarily required in some
areas. I stay out of the veil, avoid B airspace altogether and only enter C
airspace rarely when there are no other suitable airports.

Most controllers are fine with you entering C airspace, though some are real
jerks. I was flying my daughter up to Savannah for a college visit last
November. There were no other small GA airports in the area where I could
pick up a rental car, and Hilton Head was a 45 minute drive. So, SAV it was.
I called the tower a day or two in advance to let them know I was coming and
asked if there were a particular time that I should avoid. The tower
supervisor said that an arrival between 15:00 and 16:00 local was best.
After stopping for fuel in Jacksonville, I called again (that's a least an
hour out in a Luscombe!). Again, I received friendly and professional
service. But, when I got closer to SAV and contacted approach, this guy was
the rudest, most obnoxious SOB I'd ever dealt with. I literally had to quote
him FAR chapter and verse, and even then he made it clear he wished I'd just
go away.

On the other hand, my wife and I flew into Columbus a couple of weeks ago,
controllers couldn't have been friendlier or more helpful.

On the whole, I enjoy flying the Luscombe. It's a real low-tech, low-stress,
low-cost, fun-flying machine that draws an admiring and reminiscing crowd
wherever it goes, and I rarely find the lack of transponder to be a serious
drawback.

Regards,
Lee



"Robert Loer" > wrote in message
...
> Can someone simplify this answer for me me, please as it is nearing
> decision time on my project?
>
> With no lights and or transponder, where will I not be able to fly?
>
> Thanks guys.
>

[Morgans[_2_]]

"R. Lee Jarvis" > wrote

>I fly a Luscombe 8A with no electrical system, thus of course without
>lights or transponder. I must land before sundown, but other than that I
>have no problem.

> On the whole, I enjoy flying the Luscombe. It's a real low-tech,
> low-stress, low-cost, fun-flying machine that draws an admiring and
> reminiscing crowd wherever it goes, and I rarely find the lack of
> transponder to be a serious drawback.

Have you ever considered a small jell-cell lead-acid battery, and second
hand transponder, along with you handheld radio, to make life easier when
you want to go to the class C airports, or traverse their airspace?

You would not have to use it all the time, but for those times you needed
it, it could be worth the cost and weight, I would think.
--
Jim in NC

[Philippe Vessaire]

R. Lee Jarvis wrote:

> I fly a Luscombe 8A with no electrical system, thus of course without
> lights or transponder. I must land before sundown, but other than that
> I have no problem.

You may built from scratch a flywheel and drive a Kubota alternator.
We have similar stuff with French and Brtish STC for A65 and latters
engines: http://mdlaurent.free.fr/
I'm not sure Mr Sully understand english.

It is'nt easy to copy the starter fittings but if you want only drive
an alternator, it's realy easy to machine one pulley and built two
alternator fittings.


By
--
Philippe Vessaire ҿӬ

[Ron Natalie]

Morgans wrote:
> "R. Lee Jarvis" > wrote
>
>> I fly a Luscombe 8A with no electrical system, thus of course without
>> lights or transponder. I must land before sundown, but other than that I
>> have no problem.
>
>> On the whole, I enjoy flying the Luscombe. It's a real low-tech,
>> low-stress, low-cost, fun-flying machine that draws an admiring and
>> reminiscing crowd wherever it goes, and I rarely find the lack of
>> transponder to be a serious drawback.
>
> Have you ever considered a small jell-cell lead-acid battery, and second
> hand transponder, along with you handheld radio, to make life easier when
> you want to go to the class C airports, or traverse their airspace?
>
> You would not have to use it all the time, but for those times you needed
> it, it could be worth the cost and weight, I would think.

I've never seen a hand held transponder since Terra went out of
business. They used to make a balloon pack (essentially the TRT250
and a battery) as you suggest.

I was never sure of the legality of this especially once you get
to the point of needing mode C (which the Terra didn't address,
mind you back in the day, unless you were very high or near one
of the busier TCA's you didn't need mode C).

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote
>
> I've never seen a hand held transponder since Terra went out of business.
> They used to make a balloon pack (essentially the TRT250
> and a battery) as you suggest.
>
> I was never sure of the legality of this especially once you get
> to the point of needing mode C (which the Terra didn't address,
> mind you back in the day, unless you were very high or near one
> of the busier TCA's you didn't need mode C).

I doubt that it would be legal as mode C, unless it was a hard installation,
and properly set up, blessed, pontified, and so forth. You could still go
to the effort to get it approved; but nobody has to know that you are not
going run it all of the time.
--
Jim in NC

[Gerry Caron]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote
>>
>> I've never seen a hand held transponder since Terra went out of business.
>> They used to make a balloon pack (essentially the TRT250
>> and a battery) as you suggest.
>>
>> I was never sure of the legality of this especially once you get
>> to the point of needing mode C (which the Terra didn't address,
>> mind you back in the day, unless you were very high or near one
>> of the busier TCA's you didn't need mode C).
>
> I doubt that it would be legal as mode C, unless it was a hard
> installation, and properly set up, blessed, pontified, and so forth. You
> could still go to the effort to get it approved; but nobody has to know
> that you are not going run it all of the time.
> --
Yes, Terra did set up a transponder w/Mode C for a hot air balloon. It was
done while I worked there in '95 or '96. It was done for the Abruzzo family
who were attempting an altitude record. They needed a transponder (in
addition to the recording altimeter) since they were going into Class A
airspace. IIRC, they made it somewhere around 31K ft.

The "system" was a ruggedized instrument case with the TRT250, a gel cell
and the altitude encoder mounted inside. The case "mounted" on the edge of
the basket just like the balloon's instruments. The only tricky part was
the antenna. It was mounted on an aluminum ground plane that had stabilizing
lines run about 3 feet back along the coax. Once the balloon was airborne,
it was slung over the side of the basket and hung about 5 feet below the
basket. The lines kept the ground plane approximately level. (There's no
real problem with wind in a free balloon.)

Gerry