What's the pin for?

[Mxsmanic]

What does it mean when the crew of an aircraft look for "the pin" held by the
ground crew after pushback?

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[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Mxsmanic > said:
>What does it mean when the crew of an aircraft look for "the pin" held by the
>ground crew after pushback?

It disables the reset button.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"You are all but subwidgets in a composite container whose logical tab
group I have registered the traversal order of. I can merely point at you
and your popup dialogue will be unmapped unless XmNautoUnmanage is False."

[Bob Moore]

Mxsmanic wrote
> What does it mean when the crew of an aircraft look for "the pin" held
> by the ground crew after pushback?

They are looking for the Nose Gear Ground Locking Pin to insure
that it has been removed prior to flight. If not, the nose gear
will not retract.

Bob Moore
ATP B-707 B-727

[PapaGeorge]

Most fighters have three pins...both mains and nose gear. PapaGeorge

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
6.128...
> Mxsmanic wrote
>> What does it mean when the crew of an aircraft look for "the pin" held
>> by the ground crew after pushback?
>
> They are looking for the Nose Gear Ground Locking Pin to insure
> that it has been removed prior to flight. If not, the nose gear
> will not retract.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP B-707 B-727

[BT]

"6 and 2, counted and stowed" (B-52 checklist response)
6 gear pins and 2 steering lock pins
BT

"PapaGeorge" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Most fighters have three pins...both mains and nose gear. PapaGeorge
>
> "Bob Moore" > wrote in message
> 6.128...
>> Mxsmanic wrote
>>> What does it mean when the crew of an aircraft look for "the pin" held
>>> by the ground crew after pushback?
>>
>> They are looking for the Nose Gear Ground Locking Pin to insure
>> that it has been removed prior to flight. If not, the nose gear
>> will not retract.
>>
>> Bob Moore
>> ATP B-707 B-727
>
>

[Mxsmanic]

Bob Moore writes:

> They are looking for the Nose Gear Ground Locking Pin to insure
> that it has been removed prior to flight. If not, the nose gear
> will not retract.

Thanks. What's the purpose of this pin on the ground? (I assume it isn't
there just to prevent the gear from retracting while the aircraft is on the
ground (?).)

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[Mxsmanic]

PapaGeorge writes:

> Most fighters have three pins...both mains and nose gear.

What do they do?

I thought aircraft usually had interlocks that would prevent gear from
retracting as long as they had weight on them.

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[Capt.Doug]

>"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
> What does it mean when the crew of an aircraft look for "the pin" held by
the
> ground crew after pushback?

The gear pins mentioned by others here are usually removed by pilots or
mechanics well before pushback for flight. The pin that the pushback crew
holds up is the steering by-pass pin. Without the pin in place, the towbar
is free to swing with the nose wheel steering and could cause serious injury
to persons and equipment. The pin is held up for the pilots to see so that
the pilots know they will have steering before they start taxiing.
Additionally, at my airline and at United, the nosewheel steering is turned
off in the cockpit because the steering may swing momentarily during
electrical power transfer as the engine-driven generators come online.

D.

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-03-13 18:09:05 -0700, "BT" > said:

> "6 and 2, counted and stowed" (B-52 checklist response)
> 6 gear pins and 2 steering lock pins
> BT

C-130 had a bunch of pins, too, but I don't remember how many.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Mxsmanic]

Capt.Doug writes:

> The gear pins mentioned by others here are usually removed by pilots or
> mechanics well before pushback for flight. The pin that the pushback crew
> holds up is the steering by-pass pin. Without the pin in place, the towbar
> is free to swing with the nose wheel steering and could cause serious injury
> to persons and equipment. The pin is held up for the pilots to see so that
> the pilots know they will have steering before they start taxiing.
> Additionally, at my airline and at United, the nosewheel steering is turned
> off in the cockpit because the steering may swing momentarily during
> electrical power transfer as the engine-driven generators come online.

Thanks for the detailed answer. I was also able to look up "bypass pin" after
reading your reply and got some additional detail ("pin" alone was too
general).

What's the relationship between the tiller and the rudder when it comes to
steering? I understand that most large aircraft have a separate tiller wheel
that can be used to turn the nose gear on the ground, but it also seems that
the rudder turns the gear, too (?), at least during landing and take-off.
What determines the interaction of the two? There doesn't seem to be any
cockpit control that governs how they work in the aircraft I've studied.

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[Capt.Doug]

>"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
> What's the relationship between the tiller and the rudder when it comes to
> steering? I understand that most large aircraft have a separate tiller
wheel
> that can be used to turn the nose gear on the ground, but it also seems
that
> the rudder turns the gear, too (?), at least during landing and take-off.

Typically the rudder pedals provide about 8 degrees of nosewheel turning in
either direction. The tiller is used when when sharper turning is needed.

D.

[Tim]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, Mxsmanic > said:
>
>>What does it mean when the crew of an aircraft look for "the pin" held by the
>>ground crew after pushback?
>
>
> It disables the reset button.
>
>

that's flippin funny.
too bad someone actually responded seriously.

[Mxsmanic]

Tim writes:

> too bad someone actually responded seriously.

Yes ... why interrupt sophomoric jokes with serious discussions of aviation?

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[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 13, 5:39 pm, Bob Moore > wrote:
> Mxsmanic wrote
>
> > What does it mean when the crew of an aircraft look for "the pin" held
> > by the ground crew after pushback?
>
> They are looking for the Nose Gear Ground Locking Pin to insure
> that it has been removed prior to flight. If not, the nose gear
> will not retract.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP B-707 B-727

In the Navy the pins also cause the gear to be rigid so it doesn't
sway when the ship does. I remember once an A-7 arrived without the
pin in its normal on-aircraft storage place, there was a mad search to
find it. The concern was it may have fallen out of the storage and
fallen onto someone on the ground. Turns out some line guy on the ship
had forgotten to put it in where it was suppose to go, it was later
found hidden in his locker.

-Robert

[Jim Macklin]

Most fighters and bombers also have arming safety pins too.



"PapaGeorge" > wrote in message
nk.net...
| Most fighters have three pins...both mains and nose gear.
PapaGeorge
|
| "Bob Moore" > wrote in message
| 6.128...
| > Mxsmanic wrote
| >> What does it mean when the crew of an aircraft look for
"the pin" held
| >> by the ground crew after pushback?
| >
| > They are looking for the Nose Gear Ground Locking Pin to
insure
| > that it has been removed prior to flight. If not, the
nose gear
| > will not retract.
| >
| > Bob Moore
| > ATP B-707 B-727
|
|

[Kev]

On Mar 13, 10:18 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> I thought aircraft usually had interlocks that would prevent gear from
> retracting as long as they had weight on them.

The "squat switch" interlocks people usually speak of are to prevent
the gear control from being used with weight on the wheels. Nothing
to do with actually mechanically holding the gear down.

Many gear are designed so, yes, they tend to stay in place by
themselves. But put a tug on the front wheels, and you could push
the gear out of place.

Some planes, for example the Airbus, also depend on powered hydraulics
as a separate aid to holding the gear in place. They suggest that
pins be put in place if a tug is used to move an unpowered plane (such
as for maintenance).

Kev

[Dan[_7_]]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> Most fighters and bombers also have arming safety pins too.

That is correct. I was an Aviation Ordnance man.. Worked on A4b Skyhalks..
Guess that is showing my age.

You could play little tricks with the pins.. None of us ever wanted to be on
recovery for night ops.. If any ordnance came back, it could not be brought
back to the mags at night. We would have to post a watch on the trailer.

Pull the pin on the bomb rack when arming and gauranteed no bombs coming
back.

Probably the most inportant pin was in the pilots ejection seat. It was an
added safety feature. The landing gear alone should have disabled ejection.
but.... At NAS Jacksonville.. A guy playing around in the cockpit pulled the
ejection curtain with plane in the hangar, without the pin in. He made quite
a splash on a 50 foot high hangar ceiling. So saftey features always don't
work. All aviation rules are written in blood they say.. So if a pin should
be in. put it in.

[Mxsmanic]

Kev writes:

> Some planes, for example the Airbus, also depend on powered hydraulics
> as a separate aid to holding the gear in place.

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

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[Scet]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Capt.Doug writes:
>
>> The gear pins mentioned by others here are usually removed by pilots or
>> mechanics well before pushback for flight. The pin that the pushback crew
>> holds up is the steering by-pass pin. Without the pin in place, the
>> towbar
>> is free to swing with the nose wheel steering and could cause serious
>> injury
>> to persons and equipment. The pin is held up for the pilots to see so
>> that
>> the pilots know they will have steering before they start taxiing.
>> Additionally, at my airline and at United, the nosewheel steering is
>> turned
>> off in the cockpit because the steering may swing momentarily during
>> electrical power transfer as the engine-driven generators come online.
>
> Thanks for the detailed answer. I was also able to look up "bypass pin"
> after
> reading your reply and got some additional detail ("pin" alone was too
> general).
>
> What's the relationship between the tiller and the rudder when it comes to
> steering? I understand that most large aircraft have a separate tiller
> wheel
> that can be used to turn the nose gear on the ground, but it also seems
> that
> the rudder turns the gear, too (?), at least during landing and take-off.
> What determines the interaction of the two? There doesn't seem to be any
> cockpit control that governs how they work in the aircraft I've studied.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

This can be gear pins on some aircraft, but will normally be all the pins
not just the nose.

Some aircraft have towbars (they are usually aircraft specific on large
aircraft) that will disengage the steering mechanism when properly engage.
An integral locking pin usually has to be pulled out of the way by hand tp
prevent inadvertant actuation of the disabling mechanism.

With some aircraft, the nose wheel steering wheel is used during normal taxi
operations and to maintian centre line during take off untill around 80kts
when the rudder is effective enough to do the job. The nose of the aircraft
is usually getting too light at this stage and becoming non effective.

Some aircraft landing gear are configured so as to have a rearward rake
about them. This means that to retract the gear it has to lift the aircraft
over centre to retract the gear. Some have a rigid link connected to the
strut scissor links and when the strut is compressed with weight on wheels,
the link is pushed upward and causes a hinged locking collar to pivot down
and prevent the retraction actuator from breaking the over centre down lock,
which may also have un undercarriage safety pin inserted through the area
that it breaks at. AP-3Cs have all three and if an under carriage line is
replaced or something else minor, like an uplock release cylinder, it can be
leak checked by selecting the under carriage up and down without fear of
retracting the gear. It sounds a bit louder than a household tap (fawcet)
being turned on then suddenly turned off.

The old Sabre fighter jets, like Kirk Olsens, had a button that would
retract the gear on the ground if the brakes failed. The seat, if I remember
rightly, wasn't much use on the ground.

Scet

Scet

[Ron Natalie]

Scet wrote:

>> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
>
> This can be gear pins on some aircraft, but will normally be all the pins
> not just the nose.
>

The DC-3 has no nose gear, but you pin the mains (not necessary to do
anything for the little guy in the back).

[Tim]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Tim writes:
>
>
>>too bad someone actually responded seriously.
>
>
> Yes ... why interrupt sophomoric jokes with serious discussions of aviation?
>

And your straight-faced assertions that you are a pilot (or at least
know more about piloting that real pilots) and have flown Barons and
747s are supposed to be taken seriously? What's the use in giving
straight answers to someone such as yourself. You clearly have disdain
for real flying, real pilots and real airplanes. Your world is all
about make-believe. Why not go back to Dungeouns and Dragons. I hear
flying on a dragon is nice. I know someone with 240 hours on dragons.

[Mxsmanic]

Tim writes:

> And your straight-faced assertions that you are a pilot (or at least
> know more about piloting that real pilots) and have flown Barons and
> 747s are supposed to be taken seriously?

Even if I made these assertions, how people might take them is irrelevant, as
the purpose of the newsgroup is to discuss aviation, not credentials (or the
lack thereof).

People who are interested in a subject can do their own research and verify
what they've been told. People who are uninterested or simply lazy depend on
credentials, and often end up incorrect as a result.

> You clearly have disdain for real flying, real pilots and real airplanes.

No. I'm impatient with stupidity; my people have learned to live without it.
Unfortunately, being a real pilot does not prevent one from being stupid.

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[Mxsmanic]

Scet writes:

> This can be gear pins on some aircraft, but will normally be all the pins
> not just the nose.
>
> Some aircraft have towbars (they are usually aircraft specific on large
> aircraft) that will disengage the steering mechanism when properly engage.
> An integral locking pin usually has to be pulled out of the way by hand tp
> prevent inadvertant actuation of the disabling mechanism.
>
> With some aircraft, the nose wheel steering wheel is used during normal taxi
> operations and to maintian centre line during take off untill around 80kts
> when the rudder is effective enough to do the job. The nose of the aircraft
> is usually getting too light at this stage and becoming non effective.
>
> Some aircraft landing gear are configured so as to have a rearward rake
> about them. This means that to retract the gear it has to lift the aircraft
> over centre to retract the gear. Some have a rigid link connected to the
> strut scissor links and when the strut is compressed with weight on wheels,
> the link is pushed upward and causes a hinged locking collar to pivot down
> and prevent the retraction actuator from breaking the over centre down lock,
> which may also have un undercarriage safety pin inserted through the area
> that it breaks at. AP-3Cs have all three and if an under carriage line is
> replaced or something else minor, like an uplock release cylinder, it can be
> leak checked by selecting the under carriage up and down without fear of
> retracting the gear. It sounds a bit louder than a household tap (fawcet)
> being turned on then suddenly turned off.
>
> The old Sabre fighter jets, like Kirk Olsens, had a button that would
> retract the gear on the ground if the brakes failed. The seat, if I remember
> rightly, wasn't much use on the ground.

Thanks for the cool details!

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[Darkwing]

"Tim" > wrote in message
...
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> Tim writes:
>>
>>
>>>too bad someone actually responded seriously.
>>
>>
>> Yes ... why interrupt sophomoric jokes with serious discussions of
>> aviation?
>>
>
> And your straight-faced assertions that you are a pilot (or at least know
> more about piloting that real pilots) and have flown Barons and 747s are
> supposed to be taken seriously? What's the use in giving straight answers
> to someone such as yourself. You clearly have disdain for real flying,
> real pilots and real airplanes. Your world is all about make-believe.
> Why not go back to Dungeouns and Dragons. I hear flying on a dragon is
> nice. I know someone with 240 hours on dragons.


Thanks for the laugh, good stuff.

------------------------------------------
DW

[PapaGeorge]

If you takeoff with the gear pins still installed you're in for some
embarrassment.
The gear pins are just another safeguard to keep the gear from retracting on
the ground. At least in fighter aircraft. I can't speak for the BUFFS. LOL.
PapaGeorge

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Scet writes:
>
>> This can be gear pins on some aircraft, but will normally be all the pins
>> not just the nose.
>>
>> Some aircraft have towbars (they are usually aircraft specific on large
>> aircraft) that will disengage the steering mechanism when properly
>> engage.
>> An integral locking pin usually has to be pulled out of the way by hand
>> tp
>> prevent inadvertant actuation of the disabling mechanism.
>>
>> With some aircraft, the nose wheel steering wheel is used during normal
>> taxi
>> operations and to maintian centre line during take off untill around
>> 80kts
>> when the rudder is effective enough to do the job. The nose of the
>> aircraft
>> is usually getting too light at this stage and becoming non effective.
>>
>> Some aircraft landing gear are configured so as to have a rearward rake
>> about them. This means that to retract the gear it has to lift the
>> aircraft
>> over centre to retract the gear. Some have a rigid link connected to the
>> strut scissor links and when the strut is compressed with weight on
>> wheels,
>> the link is pushed upward and causes a hinged locking collar to pivot
>> down
>> and prevent the retraction actuator from breaking the over centre down
>> lock,
>> which may also have un undercarriage safety pin inserted through the area
>> that it breaks at. AP-3Cs have all three and if an under carriage line is
>> replaced or something else minor, like an uplock release cylinder, it can
>> be
>> leak checked by selecting the under carriage up and down without fear of
>> retracting the gear. It sounds a bit louder than a household tap (fawcet)
>> being turned on then suddenly turned off.
>>
>> The old Sabre fighter jets, like Kirk Olsens, had a button that would
>> retract the gear on the ground if the brakes failed. The seat, if I
>> remember
>> rightly, wasn't much use on the ground.
>
> Thanks for the cool details!
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Barney Rubble" > said:
>Coming from MX, this line makes me double up in laughter at the irony of
>it....
>"People who are interested in a subject can do their own research and verify
>what they've been told. "

Man, that is a howler! How many times has that ass-clown been told that
the answers to his questions are in the AIM or the FARs or other
documents? Maybe he should do his own research!


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"Almost any animal is capable of learning a stimulus/response association,
given enough repetition. Experimental observation suggests that this
isn't true if double-clicking is involved." -Lionel Lauer and Malcolm Ray

[Mxsmanic]

Paul Tomblin writes:

> Man, that is a howler! How many times has that ass-clown been told that
> the answers to his questions are in the AIM or the FARs or other
> documents? Maybe he should do his own research!

He does.

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[A Guy Called Tyketto]

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In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Paul Tomblin writes:
>
>> Man, that is a howler! How many times has that ass-clown been told that
>> the answers to his questions are in the AIM or the FARs or other
>> documents? Maybe he should do his own research!
>
> He does.

The moment you start to do your own research, and listen to
others with experience and not argue that their statements based on their
experience is wrong, is the day the sun forgets to set.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! :) | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
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[Barney Rubble]

Coming from MX, this line makes me double up in laughter at the irony of
it....
"People who are interested in a subject can do their own research and verify
what they've been told. "

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Capt.Doug writes:
>
>> The gear pins mentioned by others here are usually removed by pilots
>> or mechanics well before pushback for flight. The pin that the
>> pushback crew holds up is the steering by-pass pin. Without the pin
>> in place, the towbar is free to swing with the nose wheel steering
>> and could cause serious injury to persons and equipment. The pin is
>> held up for the pilots to see so that the pilots know they will have
>> steering before they start taxiing. Additionally, at my airline and
>> at United, the nosewheel steering is turned off in the cockpit
>> because the steering may swing momentarily during electrical power
>> transfer as the engine-driven generators come online.
>
> Thanks for the detailed answer. I was also able to look up "bypass
> pin" after reading your reply and got some additional detail ("pin"
> alone was too general).
>
> What's the relationship between the tiller and the rudder when it
> comes to steering?

What's it to you, fjukkwit? You'll never use one.



Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Kev writes:
>
>> Some planes, for example the Airbus, also depend on powered hydraulics
>> as a separate aid to holding the gear in place.
>
> Somehow that doesn't surprise me.
>

God you're a fjukkkwit..


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

"Kev" > wrote in news:1173932233.850178.56640
@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:


>
> Some planes, for example the Airbus, also depend on powered hydraulics
> as a separate aid to holding the gear in place.

Actualy, no they don't. and you can lower the landing gear in any 'bus
through completely mechanical means and it wil stay down with no
hydraulics powering the system whatsoever..

They suggest that
> pins be put in place if a tug is used to move an unpowered plane (such
> as for maintenance).

They do that in any type of airplane...



Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Bob Moore > wrote in
6.128:

> Mxsmanic wrote
>> What does it mean when the crew of an aircraft look for "the pin"
held
>> by the ground crew after pushback?
>
> They are looking for the Nose Gear Ground Locking Pin to insure
> that it has been removed prior to flight. If not, the nose gear
> will not retract.
>

Actually it's the steering bypass pin. It replaces the need to make sure
you've switched off the hydraulics prior to pushback like you did in the
old days.. (remember, no electrical changeover just in case those "A"
pumps become active and break the towbar)
The pin bypasses the hydraulics to the nosewheel steering.
Even old 72's have had this mod done in the interst of safety and of
conforming with everything else that's been built since the 70's.


bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Tim writes:
>
>> And your straight-faced assertions that you are a pilot (or at least
>> know more about piloting that real pilots) and have flown Barons and
>> 747s are supposed to be taken seriously?
>
> Even if I made these assertions, how people might take them is
> irrelevant, as the purpose of the newsgroup is to discuss aviation,
> not credentials (or the lack thereof).

Then why do you lie about what you've done?



Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Tim writes:
>
>> too bad someone actually responded seriously.
>
> Yes ... why interrupt sophomoric jokes with serious discussions of
> aviation?
>

Certainly nothing you'd ever do.


bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Paul Tomblin writes:
>
>> Man, that is a howler! How many times has that ass-clown been told that
>> the answers to his questions are in the AIM or the FARs or other
>> documents? Maybe he should do his own research!
>
> He does.
>

Not going to find a lot of answers up your ass fjukkwit.


Bertie