Growth in soaring

[fred]

A question often asked is "Why has the glider activity declined?" In
1975 we would make about 150 flights on a Sat & Sun. Nothing like that
now but we had our best year 2006 in a long time. The decline (I
believe) is the competition for disposable time Vegas is many times
larger, Indian Casinos abound. Water craft, off road vehicles etc all
compete.
A well known ride operator told me that 1800gliderrides expected to
sell FOUR MILLION in rides in 2007. All sold on the internet. They
have no operations of their own, but have about 900 domain names, most
of them the same. USE CAUTION. fred

[Ramy]

I don't think that casinos, watercrafts or off road vehicles compete
with soaring. The decline in soaring is perfectly correlated with the
birth of hang gliding and later paragliding. I am often puzzled about
the amount of effort put into trying to recruit youth into soaring.
Our true market is the middle age and not youth. I think it is largely
a waste of efforts to try to attract youth. It is very hard to compete
with hang gliding and paragliding, which appeals much more to
youngsters who are actually interested in aviation due to their low
cost, simplicity and quick learning. I dare to assume that most
youngsters which are attracted to gliders are those who are mostly
interested in a career in aviation.
The true market is middle aged power pilots and veterans hang/para
glider pilots who are ready to expand their horizon and can afford
the cost and time involved. I don't think enough effort is given to
market our sport to this segment, especially not to the hang gliding
and paragliding world (where I came from). Just my humble opinion.

As for 1800skyride.com and similar domains, they are a big scam
targeting all the aviation ride business and causes serious problems
to our ride operators. My club succedded in scaring them away from
offerring rides in our area, hopefully others will follow suit. Check
out the counter site
http://www.glidersailplanerides.com/ and spread the word.

Ramy


On Mar 16, 11:28 am, "fred" > wrote:
> A question often asked is "Why has the glider activity declined?" In
> 1975 we would make about 150 flights on a Sat & Sun. Nothing like that
> now but we had our best year 2006 in a long time. The decline (I
> believe) is the competition for disposable time Vegas is many times
> larger, Indian Casinos abound. Water craft, off road vehicles etc all
> compete.
> A well known ride operator told me that 1800gliderrides expected to
> sell FOUR MILLION in rides in 2007. All sold on the internet. They
> have no operations of their own, but have about 900 domain names, most
> of them the same. USE CAUTION. fred

[Mike Schumann]

I started soaring about 3 years ago. I'm in my mid 50s and have had my
private pilots license for about 10 years. I ended up flying gliders after
having a heart bypass that made it too much of a hassle to keep my medical.

Flying gliders is a lot more fun for me than power flying ever was. I
totally agree that middle aged pilots are a big opportunity for the sport.
I tried to get my son interested in gliders, but he was much more interested
in power flying. I suspect that in 10 - 15 years, he'll get bored with $100
hamburger runs and discover the thrill of gliding too.

Mike Schumann

"Ramy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I don't think that casinos, watercrafts or off road vehicles compete
> with soaring. The decline in soaring is perfectly correlated with the
> birth of hang gliding and later paragliding. I am often puzzled about
> the amount of effort put into trying to recruit youth into soaring.
> Our true market is the middle age and not youth. I think it is largely
> a waste of efforts to try to attract youth. It is very hard to compete
> with hang gliding and paragliding, which appeals much more to
> youngsters who are actually interested in aviation due to their low
> cost, simplicity and quick learning. I dare to assume that most
> youngsters which are attracted to gliders are those who are mostly
> interested in a career in aviation.
> The true market is middle aged power pilots and veterans hang/para
> glider pilots who are ready to expand their horizon and can afford
> the cost and time involved. I don't think enough effort is given to
> market our sport to this segment, especially not to the hang gliding
> and paragliding world (where I came from). Just my humble opinion.
>
> As for 1800skyride.com and similar domains, they are a big scam
> targeting all the aviation ride business and causes serious problems
> to our ride operators. My club succedded in scaring them away from
> offerring rides in our area, hopefully others will follow suit. Check
> out the counter site
> http://www.glidersailplanerides.com/ and spread the word.
>
> Ramy
>
>
> On Mar 16, 11:28 am, "fred" > wrote:
>> A question often asked is "Why has the glider activity declined?" In
>> 1975 we would make about 150 flights on a Sat & Sun. Nothing like that
>> now but we had our best year 2006 in a long time. The decline (I
>> believe) is the competition for disposable time Vegas is many times
>> larger, Indian Casinos abound. Water craft, off road vehicles etc all
>> compete.
>> A well known ride operator told me that 1800gliderrides expected to
>> sell FOUR MILLION in rides in 2007. All sold on the internet. They
>> have no operations of their own, but have about 900 domain names, most
>> of them the same. USE CAUTION. fred
>
>



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[GM]

On Mar 16, 5:32 pm, "Ramy" > wrote:
> I don't think that casinos, watercrafts or off road vehicles compete
> with soaring. The decline in soaring is perfectly correlated with the
> birth of hang gliding and later paragliding. I am often puzzled about
> the amount of effort put into trying to recruit youth into soaring.
> Our true market is the middle age and not youth. I think it is largely
> a waste of efforts to try to attract youth. It is very hard to compete
> with hang gliding and paragliding, which appeals much more to
> youngsters who are actually interested in aviation due to their low
> cost, simplicity and quick learning. I dare to assume that most
> youngsters which are attracted to gliders are those who are mostly
> interested in a career in aviation.
> The true market is middle aged power pilots and veterans hang/para
> glider pilots who are ready to expand their horizon and can afford
> the cost and time involved. I don't think enough effort is given to
> market our sport to this segment, especially not to the hang gliding
> and paragliding world (where I came from). Just my humble opinion.
>
> As for 1800skyride.com and similar domains, they are a big scam
> targeting all the aviation ride business and causes serious problems
> to our ride operators. My club succedded in scaring them away from
> offerring rides in our area, hopefully others will follow suit. Check
> out the counter sitehttp://www.glidersailplanerides.com/and spread the word.
>
> Ramy
>
> On Mar 16, 11:28 am, "fred" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > A question often asked is "Why has the glider activity declined?" In
> > 1975 we would make about 150 flights on a Sat & Sun. Nothing like that
> > now but we had our best year 2006 in a long time. The decline (I
> > believe) is the competition for disposable time Vegas is many times
> > larger, Indian Casinos abound. Water craft, off road vehicles etc all
> > compete.
> > A well known ride operator told me that 1800gliderrides expected to
> > sell FOUR MILLION in rides in 2007. All sold on the internet. They
> > have no operations of their own, but have about 900 domain names, most
> > of them the same. USE CAUTION. fred- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

In my humble opinion, one reason soaring does not appeal to too many
young kids (14 and up) is that the concept of having to work for
something before reaping a benefit becomes more and more alien to
them. The principle of 'instant gratification' is all too common
today. How long does it take to go from zero to solo in a glider? An
entire season? Sit in front of a computer and you can figure out a new
game or even a flight simulator in a few hours.
Also, at least in the US, power rules. In the mind of most youngsters,
if it doesn't go 'wawarooom', it's not worth looking at. You may
impress the chicks by telling them you drive a souped up rice-cooker,
but not by telling them you fly something that doesn't even have an
engine.
Also, look around at your avarage 'glider field USA' and then put
yourself into the shoes of a young kid. Would you want to hang around
with guys/gals 3-5 times your own age? Certainly not! Operations like
Caesar Creek in OH or Harris Hill in NY are the shining exception.
They have very active youth group under great and dedicated
leadership.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Uli Neumann

[Mal[_3_]]

>>> A well known ride operator told me that 1800gliderrides expected to
>>> sell FOUR MILLION in rides in 2007. All sold on the internet. They
>>> have no operations of their own, but have about 900 domain names, most
>>> of them the same. USE CAUTION. fred

We had a operator here in Australia they had taken the monies but were in
receivership and will still taking bookings at a revamped redirected
website.

A few clubs and people got burnt.

I use a affiliate program see http://www.mals.net/gliderjoyflights.htm

Most the clubs have signed with the programs who are signed to the affiliate
program I use.

Mal

[Frank Whiteley]

These are simple overviews. With most programs, the devil's in the
details, so you may need to contact someone to really understand how
these are implemented.

Regarding youth, can't speak to commercial operations, but Mile High
Gliding in Boulder has had some success. http://www.milehighgliding.com/colorado/mhyga.htm

Some SSA chapters have had very successful, on-going youth programs.
Youth involvement is structured on a value-added, performance based
program.
http://www.texassoaring.org Youth Program (about 35 total involved Feb
2006, including a then 17-year old tow pilot)
http://www.harrishillsoaring.org/ Junior program (some good video
links in RAS a while back)

Scholarship programs
http://www.tidewatersoaring.org/html/about_tss.html Tidewater Soaring
Foundation provides flight training scholarships.
http://tucsonsoaring.org/ Scholarship program is no longer active,
but when implemented caused a forty plus member jump.

All of the above have a common aspect. The organizations are, or are
aligned with, 501c(3) charitable, educational non-profit
organizations. There are other programs.

If you are prepared for growth and targeting the 45-year old PSEL
pilot market, contact Larry Touhino about how he's been marketing
soaring with a glider pilots ground school and using the SSA
Introductory membership.
http://www.ocsoaring.org/norobots/club_officers.htm
(sorry Larry, if your phone rings off the hook, but you should write
it up)

Philadelphia Glider Council sold the 'excitement' of soaring at the
AOPA convention a few years ago, which they say was very fruitful.
http://www.pgcsoaring.org/

Or if you're outreach is to the general public
Another approach that seemed pretty successful for introducing people
to soaring was done by Sylvania Soaring Adventures
http://www.soarmidwest.com/ They listed in a continuing education
catalog with a Chicago school. The package included an hour ground
school, lunch, and a flight lesson. The school charged $100/person
for the listing and registration. The FBO package was $100. So
people were willing to pay $200 and drive two hours to experience
this. The first day 20 showed up and they had to cancel their normal
students to accommodate everyone, so they put a limit of 6 per day on
subsequent registrations. I have no idea what their capture rate was
or if they've continued this.

Surely there are similar 'marketing' opportunities near you.
Personally, I recommend a three-lesson package. One soaring flight
is needed to set the hook, single sled rides seldom do. The first
flight is often a blur.

It's the money. Lowering the cost of entry by 50-70% will open the
door to a lot more potential pilots. There are a few winches coming
online around the country. I heard at the SSA convention that the
one that migrated to New York has been very popular. A couple more
are due this spring and there's are secret gathering on deck.

Frank Whiteley


On Mar 16, 4:48 pm, "Mike Schumann" <mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com> wrote:
> I started soaring about 3 years ago. I'm in my mid 50s and have had my
> private pilots license for about 10 years. I ended up flying gliders after
> having a heart bypass that made it too much of a hassle to keep my medical.
>
> Flying gliders is a lot more fun for me than power flying ever was. I
> totally agree that middle aged pilots are a big opportunity for the sport.
> I tried to get my son interested in gliders, but he was much more interested
> in power flying. I suspect that in 10 - 15 years, he'll get bored with $100
> hamburger runs and discover the thrill of gliding too.
>
> Mike Schumann
>
> "Ramy" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
> >I don't think that casinos, watercrafts or off road vehicles compete
> > with soaring. The decline in soaring is perfectly correlated with the
> > birth of hang gliding and later paragliding. I am often puzzled about
> > the amount of effort put into trying to recruit youth into soaring.
> > Our true market is the middle age and not youth. I think it is largely
> > a waste of efforts to try to attract youth. It is very hard to compete
> > with hang gliding and paragliding, which appeals much more to
> > youngsters who are actually interested in aviation due to their low
> > cost, simplicity and quick learning. I dare to assume that most
> > youngsters which are attracted to gliders are those who are mostly
> > interested in a career in aviation.
> > The true market is middle aged power pilots and veterans hang/para
> > glider pilots who are ready to expand their horizon and can afford
> > the cost and time involved. I don't think enough effort is given to
> > market our sport to this segment, especially not to the hang gliding
> > and paragliding world (where I came from). Just my humble opinion.
>
> > As for 1800skyride.com and similar domains, they are a big scam
> > targeting all the aviation ride business and causes serious problems
> > to our ride operators. My club succedded in scaring them away from
> > offerring rides in our area, hopefully others will follow suit. Check
> > out the counter site
> >http://www.glidersailplanerides.com/and spread the word.
>
> > Ramy
>
> > On Mar 16, 11:28 am, "fred" > wrote:
> >> A question often asked is "Why has the glider activity declined?" In
> >> 1975 we would make about 150 flights on a Sat & Sun. Nothing like that
> >> now but we had our best year 2006 in a long time. The decline (I
> >> believe) is the competition for disposable time Vegas is many times
> >> larger, Indian Casinos abound. Water craft, off road vehicles etc all
> >> compete.
> >> A well known ride operator told me that 1800gliderrides expected to
> >> sell FOUR MILLION in rides in 2007. All sold on the internet. They
> >> have no operations of their own, but have about 900 domain names, most
> >> of them the same. USE CAUTION. fred
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com

[Frank Whiteley]

On Mar 16, 8:42 pm, "GM" > wrote:
> On Mar 16, 5:32 pm, "Ramy" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I don't think that casinos, watercrafts or off road vehicles compete
> > with soaring. The decline in soaring is perfectly correlated with the
> > birth of hang gliding and later paragliding. I am often puzzled about
> > the amount of effort put into trying to recruit youth into soaring.
> > Our true market is the middle age and not youth. I think it is largely
> > a waste of efforts to try to attract youth. It is very hard to compete
> > with hang gliding and paragliding, which appeals much more to
> > youngsters who are actually interested in aviation due to their low
> > cost, simplicity and quick learning. I dare to assume that most
> > youngsters which are attracted to gliders are those who are mostly
> > interested in a career in aviation.
> > The true market is middle aged power pilots and veterans hang/para
> > glider pilots who are ready to expand their horizon and can afford
> > the cost and time involved. I don't think enough effort is given to
> > market our sport to this segment, especially not to the hang gliding
> > and paragliding world (where I came from). Just my humble opinion.
>
> > As for 1800skyride.com and similar domains, they are a big scam
> > targeting all the aviation ride business and causes serious problems
> > to our ride operators. My club succedded in scaring them away from
> > offerring rides in our area, hopefully others will follow suit. Check
> > out the counter sitehttp://www.glidersailplanerides.com/andspread the word.
>
> > Ramy
>
> > On Mar 16, 11:28 am, "fred" > wrote:
>
> > > A question often asked is "Why has the glider activity declined?" In
> > > 1975 we would make about 150 flights on a Sat & Sun. Nothing like that
> > > now but we had our best year 2006 in a long time. The decline (I
> > > believe) is the competition for disposable time Vegas is many times
> > > larger, Indian Casinos abound. Water craft, off road vehicles etc all
> > > compete.
> > > A well known ride operator told me that 1800gliderrides expected to
> > > sell FOUR MILLION in rides in 2007. All sold on the internet. They
> > > have no operations of their own, but have about 900 domain names, most
> > > of them the same. USE CAUTION. fred- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> In my humble opinion, one reason soaring does not appeal to too many
> young kids (14 and up) is that the concept of having to work for
> something before reaping a benefit becomes more and more alien to
> them. The principle of 'instant gratification' is all too common
> today. How long does it take to go from zero to solo in a glider? An
> entire season? Sit in front of a computer and you can figure out a new
> game or even a flight simulator in a few hours.
> Also, at least in the US, power rules. In the mind of most youngsters,
> if it doesn't go 'wawarooom', it's not worth looking at. You may
> impress the chicks by telling them you drive a souped up rice-cooker,
> but not by telling them you fly something that doesn't even have an
> engine.
> Also, look around at your avarage 'glider field USA' and then put
> yourself into the shoes of a young kid. Would you want to hang around
> with guys/gals 3-5 times your own age? Certainly not! Operations like
> Caesar Creek in OH or Harris Hill in NY are the shining exception.
> They have very active youth group under great and dedicated
> leadership.
>
> Just my 2 cents worth.
>
> Uli Neumann

Uli, you are correct that there must be more than one or two youth to
be involved with to keep it interesting. That's were strategic
planning comes in. In any endeavor, planning saves hugely on the back
end, but more often someone will just leap at implementing something,
without having done appropriate research. It may sound great on the
front end and become a nightmare or a burden on the back end (Tucson
Soaring example, though initially successful, also created unforeseen
issues). Soaring, by its nature, is for the long haul. In club
environments, the benefits and burdens of voluntary club membership
are often poorly expressed and too often controls are substituted for
leadership to gain the involvement of members. Adults are often much
worse in this regard than youth, and adults behaving badly don't
impress youth. Given the chance, youth will impress adults, again and
again.

I think the mystique of flying is somewhat diluted. When I was young,
few of my peers had ever been in an airplane, but we lived close to
significant aviation activity, so our imaginations and dreams of
flying were ever present. Today, a lot of youngsters have jetted
across the country or the oceans. What do they do? Play games, close
the window shades, sleep, or watch movies. Few look out the window to
try and figure out where they are or watch the changing clouds or even
the auroras. A few I've spoken with didn't consider it a particularly
pleasant experience, but a means to get to whatever was at the end of
the flight. Hardly inspiring.

Hang gliding hit a plateau. That community thinks paragliding and
powered paragliding have impacted their growth, with the lower effort
and cost of entry. All of these activities seem to attract quite a
few single people, though there are some places that appear to attract
more family involvement. There seem to be a lot of singles involved
in rock climbing also. I'm always amazed at how much is spent on
snowmobiling each year, but it is largely a family activity.

Your group has a winch. I would imagine you could involve a youth
group on a summer weekday with $8/flights. The Boy Scouts does have
an aviation merit badge and an aviation tour permit. The Girl Scouts
don't permit aviation activities, unless something has changed in the
past year or so.

Frank Whiteley

[Bob Whelan]

Mike Schumann wrote:
> I started soaring about 3 years ago. I'm in my mid 50s and have had my
> private pilots license for about 10 years. I ended up flying gliders after
> having a heart bypass that made it too much of a hassle to keep my medical.
>
> Flying gliders is a lot more fun for me than power flying ever was. I
> totally agree that middle aged pilots are a big opportunity for the sport.
> I tried to get my son interested in gliders, but he was much more interested
> in power flying. I suspect that in 10 - 15 years, he'll get bored with $100
> hamburger runs and discover the thrill of gliding too.
>

Been soaring since getting out of school in 1972. With a real job I was
finally in a position to get myself to and pay for flying lessons,
knowing then only that I wanted to fly in the worst sort of way (well,
philosophically, anyhow, heh heh). Parental encouragement was
non-existent; the desire came from within, from I know not where. Had
never heard of soaring, and '72 was pre-hang glider boom. Wound up
taking soaring lessons because of my work room-mate/cheaper/easier than
power lessons, and...this to me seemed key then and remains so
today...deep down I knew I wanted to fly for sheer personal enjoyment,
since my coke bottles precluded military/commercial avenues (i.e. could
not fly for a living, at least in any way that I could then see). Hang
gliding never attracted me due (initially) to absence of 3-axis control,
then 'landing gear' concerns (in my 20's!), and ultimately because
soaring was and continues to be so much of a challenge and fun.

My working observation is soaring attracts those who seek it...for
whatever reason. Some, like me, simply seek the challenge and rewards
of some sort of 'acceptable flight,' and in that sense are easily
identifiable. Age seems to hardly be a factor for these types, but
opportunity certainly is. Others don't seem to know what they seek
until after blundering into it somehow. I've no idea how to
attract/market-to these types, beyond keeping one's antennae wiggling,
and assisting where possible. Again, opportunities...

YMMV.

Regards,
Bob W.

[John H. Campbell]

> Would you want to hang around
> with guys/gals 3-5 times your own age? Certainly not! Operations like
> Caesar Creek in OH or Harris Hill in NY are the shining exception.
> They have very active youth group

Exactly. Don't recruit individuals, create a program. See
> www.ssa.org/test/Docs/GovNews/4Background.pdf
HHSC use to be the only one, Now there are a growing number of
exceptions like TSA, CCSC...

--JHC

[Tony Verhulst]

> Some SSA chapters have had very successful, on-going youth programs.
> Youth involvement is structured on a value-added, performance based
> program.
> http://www.texassoaring.org Youth Program (about 35 total involved Feb
> 2006, including a then 17-year old tow pilot)
> http://www.harrishillsoaring.org/ Junior program (some good video
> links in RAS a while back)

Add to that, the Greater Boston Soaring Club. So popular that there is a
waiting list for the youth program. See http://soargbsc.com - click on
"Junior Program".

Tony V.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 16, 3:32 pm, "Ramy" > wrote:
> I don't think that casinos, watercrafts or off road vehicles compete
> with soaring. The decline in soaring is perfectly correlated with the
> birth of hang gliding and later paragliding. I am often puzzled about
> the amount of effort put into trying to recruit youth into soaring.
> Our true market is the middle age and not youth. I think it is largely
> a waste of efforts to try to attract youth. It is very hard to compete
> with hang gliding and paragliding, which appeals much more to
> youngsters who are actually interested in aviation due to their low
> cost, simplicity and quick learning. I dare to assume that most
> youngsters which are attracted to gliders are those who are mostly
> interested in a career in aviation.
> The true market is middle aged power pilots and veterans hang/para
> glider pilots who are ready to expand their horizon and can afford
> the cost and time involved. I don't think enough effort is given to
> market our sport to this segment, especially not to the hang gliding
> and paragliding world (where I came from). Just my humble opinion.
>
> Ramy

All,

Just a few thoughts on the subject.

I too come from the Hang Gliding community and agree with Ramy's
comments. In the late 70s when I began flying HGs the average age was
approximately 22 (I was 19), when I retired from HGs seven years ago
the average age was approximately 48! It's an old and varied story in
both sports HG and Sailplanes.

I moved into the Sailplane world because "I love the act of soaring" I
have ever since the first time I observed a Hang Glider in 1977
thermal up to cloud base, turn down wind and go XC, I bought a Hang
Glider one week later. Many years later, when my body began to rebel
(numb hands, back problems) while hanging in a harness for hours at a
time it lost the allure. Now I fly Sailplanes and the passion for
soaring is stronger than ever, comfortable and cool looking cockpit,
great electronic toys and fantastic performance with unlimited soaring
possibilities. This is candy to all Hanglider pilots, if you put one
in a modern or semi-modern cockpit his eyes will light up and "bingo"
you have a hooked, life time member, read active & engaged. The
passion for soaring (remember they survived 20 or 30 years of
Hangliding) and intuitive thermalling skills these guys can bring to
your club is quite contagious, I've observed this first hand as I'm
sure many of you have too at your clubs.

It's just one piece of the story but I think we're missing the boat by
not actively tapping into this rich source of potential and prolific
Sailplane pilots whose demographics are a marketers dream for this
sport. This group is aging and perhaps won't be avaliable down the
road but if you bring them in now they will be involved the until they
reluctantly must retire from soaring.

Rick -21

[Bill Daniels]

After listening to recruiting strategies for several decades, it seems they
always follow fall into predictable generalizations. "Somewhere out there
exists a large group of people who, if they just knew of us, would break
down the doors to start flight training." The potential groups are usually
thought to be other pilots of airplanes or hang gliders. Sometimes it's
"get 'em young". It's always a simple answer that magically solves the
recruiting problem.
When we look at the present population of gliders pilots we see a bunch of
individuals, few of whom fall into any definable group. The search for a
'magic' recruiting solution that we haven't been able to find for 80+ years
seems to have failed. I think the reality is that we recruit new glider
pilots one-by-one. They can be from any demographic.

I'd suggest that we look closely at those we fail to recruit since failure
is often the best teacher. When you talk to them their first answer will be
"it costs too much". That's a standard, easy answer and, while it can be
true, it's usually not the real reason they are walking away. Press further
and you hear more truthful reasons. They aren't flattering but you have to
listen.

"This place is a dump". "Why would I want to hang around here?" is near the
top of the list. When viewed in that light, you have to admit that most
airports are at best industrial slums. Gliderports seem to be the worst.
Why is it that almost every gliderport is at the end of a long washboarded
dirt road? Try spiffing up the place with some paint and landscaping.

"It's not too friendly around here", is another often heard complaint. What
every glider operation needs is a designated "official greeter". This
person is probably the most important on the field. Make it a real job.

"You guys are hard to find", is a third. My experience is that if the
operation has a phone, it rings three or four times an hour with people
asking for information about gliding. Usually, these calls end up on an
answering machine. Even at commercial operations with a staff, the person
answering calls sometimes has little real interest in soaring beyond selling
a ride. With simple techniques like call forwarding, anyone, anywhere can
take those calls. Get club members to take calls on a rotating basis. An
informed, enthusiastic human voice answering questions goes a long way to
getting a new member.

These are just three ideas, but implemented together, they could go a long
way toward a turnaround.

Bill Daniels





"Tony Verhulst" > wrote in message
...
>
>> Some SSA chapters have had very successful, on-going youth programs.
>> Youth involvement is structured on a value-added, performance based
>> program.
>> http://www.texassoaring.org Youth Program (about 35 total involved Feb
>> 2006, including a then 17-year old tow pilot)
>> http://www.harrishillsoaring.org/ Junior program (some good video
>> links in RAS a while back)
>
> Add to that, the Greater Boston Soaring Club. So popular that there is a
> waiting list for the youth program. See http://soargbsc.com - click on
> "Junior Program".
>
> Tony V.

[Tuno]

<snip>
What every glider operation needs is a designated "official
greeter".
This person is probably the most important on the field. Make it a
real job.
</snip>

As a relative newcomer to the sport, I say the above is very good
advice.

Most of the places I've visited have been very friendly, but when I
decided to take lessons in 2003 and reported to the nearest soaring
school, I felt like I was interrupting them, even when I announced I
wanted to come back for more! (The rest of the training experience was
great.)

-ted/2NO

[Michael Ash]

Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> I think the mystique of flying is somewhat diluted. When I was young,
> few of my peers had ever been in an airplane, but we lived close to
> significant aviation activity, so our imaginations and dreams of
> flying were ever present. Today, a lot of youngsters have jetted
> across the country or the oceans. What do they do? Play games, close
> the window shades, sleep, or watch movies. Few look out the window to
> try and figure out where they are or watch the changing clouds or even
> the auroras. A few I've spoken with didn't consider it a particularly
> pleasant experience, but a means to get to whatever was at the end of
> the flight. Hardly inspiring.

And who can blame us? :) I'm one of those guys in his 20s that everybody
seems to despair about attracting, I've been soaring since last summer and
enjoying every moment, and I hate airliners with a deep passion.

When I was little I loved to fly commercially. I even got to meet the
captain and sit in the cockpit of a DC-10. (Good luck trying that one
today!) But as I grew out of the child-sized seats, realized just how tiny
and annoying those windows are, got more and more tired of the growing
stupidity of airport security, and just racked up a lot of commercial
flying, I got tired of the whole thing. Flying is great, but being stuffed
into a seat that's three sizes too small, packed into an aluminum tube
like sardines with no control over your destiny for hours, you can see how
it could be considered unpleasant.

Airliners are the busses of air travel. You find people who are fascinated
with trains, but hardly ever with busses. I think that if you want to
attract people to soaring, avoid comparisons with airliners as much as
possible. Other than the fact that both involve being high above the
ground, they have almost nothing in common.

I think there's no problem generating mystique around soaring, in fact I
think there may be a little too much of it. People need to know that it's
something that *they* can do themselves, not just superhuman masters of
the air. Most people probably know where their local airport is and have
some idea of how to procure an airplane ride if they felt like it, but how
many people know where their nearest glider operation is located? How many
realize that they could start learning as early as the next weekend and
they could be flying solo in just a couple dozen flights?

Maybe I'm subconsciously transferring my pre-soaring thoughts onto the
public at large, but that's how I see it.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

[Michel Talon]

Bill Daniels wrote:


> seems to have failed. I think the reality is that we recruit new glider
> pilots one-by-one. They can be from any demographic.
>
> I'd suggest that we look closely at those we fail to recruit since failure
> is often the best teacher. When you talk to them their first answer will
> be
> "it costs too much". That's a standard, easy answer and, while it can be
> true, it's usually not the real reason they are walking away.

Bill, i agree with most what you are saying, except that. The clubs in
France have tried a lot to solve the problem using the techniques you
describe below. They have websites, phones, people try to be friendly,
gliderports try to be nice, etc. etc.

But the absolutely *most* important reason why they don't recruit, is that
it is too expensive in time and money. There are people having money but not
time, people having time but not money, but people having both are mostly
retirees, and experience shows that, contrary to what has been said by
other posters, gliding is *not* a sport for retirees.

The reason why it is too expensive is because gliders and towing are too
expensive, period. In clubs here everything else is basically ensured by
volunteers and is gratis.

> Press
> further
> and you hear more truthful reasons. They aren't flattering but you have
> to listen.
>
> "This place is a dump". "Why would I want to hang around here?" is near
> the
> top of the list. When viewed in that light, you have to admit that most
> airports are at best industrial slums. Gliderports seem to be the worst.
> Why is it that almost every gliderport is at the end of a long washboarded
> dirt road? Try spiffing up the place with some paint and landscaping.
>
> "It's not too friendly around here", is another often heard complaint.
> What
> every glider operation needs is a designated "official greeter". This
> person is probably the most important on the field. Make it a real job.
>
> "You guys are hard to find", is a third. My experience is that if the
> operation has a phone, it rings three or four times an hour with people
> asking for information about gliding. Usually, these calls end up on an
> answering machine. Even at commercial operations with a staff, the person
> answering calls sometimes has little real interest in soaring beyond
> selling a ride. With simple techniques like call forwarding, anyone,
> anywhere can
> take those calls. Get club members to take calls on a rotating basis. An
> informed, enthusiastic human voice answering questions goes a long way to
> getting a new member.
>
> These are just three ideas, but implemented together, they could go a
> long way toward a turnaround.
>
> Bill Daniels

[Michel Talon]

Michael Ash wrote:

> the air. Most people probably know where their local airport is and have
> some idea of how to procure an airplane ride if they felt like it, but how
> many people know where their nearest glider operation is located? How many
> realize that they could start learning as early as the next weekend and
> they could be flying solo in just a couple dozen flights?

What about saying the truth to young people? They could be flying solo after
a whole season generally, which is a huge personal investment.

> --
> Michael Ash
> Rogue Amoeba Software

[Frank Whiteley]

On Mar 17, 10:20 am, Michel Talon > wrote:
> Michael Ash wrote:
> > the air. Most people probably know where their local airport is and have
> > some idea of how to procure an airplane ride if they felt like it, but how
> > many people know where their nearest glider operation is located? How many
> > realize that they could start learning as early as the next weekend and
> > they could be flying solo in just a couple dozen flights?
>
> What about saying the truth to young people? They could be flying solo after
> a whole season generally, which is a huge personal investment.
>
> > --
> > Michael Ash
> > Rogue Amoeba Software

Depends on location. What I tell a prospective pilot is to train
during the winter so they'll be ready to soar come spring. If they
wait until spring, it's much harder to reserve the gliders and
instructors.

Frank Whiteley

[Michael Ash]

Michel Talon > wrote:
> Michael Ash wrote:
>
>> the air. Most people probably know where their local airport is and have
>> some idea of how to procure an airplane ride if they felt like it, but how
>> many people know where their nearest glider operation is located? How many
>> realize that they could start learning as early as the next weekend and
>> they could be flying solo in just a couple dozen flights?
>
> What about saying the truth to young people? They could be flying solo after
> a whole season generally, which is a huge personal investment.

Certainly I wouldn't advocate anything less than total honesty. But
nothing says you can't present things in a good light.

In this case, tell them that it could take them much less time. I'm
probably abnormal due to excess free time and prior aviation experience,
but it took me two months to solo. Even if it doesn't, "a whole season" is
much less than a year. And even if it takes you a long time, flying with
an instructor can be just as fun (sometimes more fun) than flying alone.

It can be a long investment but with a good instructor and the right
attitude it doesn't have to be a difficult one. People put in similar
amounts of effort learning to ride a bicycle, rollerblade, drive a car, or
run a long race.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

[Bert Willing]

I think that is nonsense. As long as youngsters can afford to go paragliding
(did you ever look into the cost of paragliding?) or skiing, money isn't the
problem.

"Michel Talon" > wrote in message
...
> But the absolutely *most* important reason why they don't recruit, is that
> it is too expensive in time and money. There are people having money but
> not
> time, people having time but not money, but people having both are mostly
> retirees, and experience shows that, contrary to what has been said by
> other posters, gliding is *not* a sport for retirees.
>
> The reason why it is too expensive is because gliders and towing are too
> expensive, period. In clubs here everything else is basically ensured by
> volunteers and is gratis.
>
>> Press
>> further
>> and you hear more truthful reasons. They aren't flattering but you have
>> to listen.
>>
>> "This place is a dump". "Why would I want to hang around here?" is near
>> the
>> top of the list. When viewed in that light, you have to admit that most
>> airports are at best industrial slums. Gliderports seem to be the worst.
>> Why is it that almost every gliderport is at the end of a long
>> washboarded
>> dirt road? Try spiffing up the place with some paint and landscaping.
>>
>> "It's not too friendly around here", is another often heard complaint.
>> What
>> every glider operation needs is a designated "official greeter". This
>> person is probably the most important on the field. Make it a real job.
>>
>> "You guys are hard to find", is a third. My experience is that if the
>> operation has a phone, it rings three or four times an hour with people
>> asking for information about gliding. Usually, these calls end up on an
>> answering machine. Even at commercial operations with a staff, the
>> person
>> answering calls sometimes has little real interest in soaring beyond
>> selling a ride. With simple techniques like call forwarding, anyone,
>> anywhere can
>> take those calls. Get club members to take calls on a rotating basis.
>> An
>> informed, enthusiastic human voice answering questions goes a long way to
>> getting a new member.
>>
>> These are just three ideas, but implemented together, they could go a
>> long way toward a turnaround.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>
>

[Tuno]

I agree with you Bert.

I came into the sport in 2003 after a long "career" in skydiving. The
long-term participation costs are comparable; the cost to get licensed
to "fly solo" is roughly the same; and while the cost of owning your
own high quality equipment is much higher in gliding, the ongoing
costs of skydiving are higher (a single weekend of jumping in the
early 90s cost me about $250 in jump tickets alone). I had many
friends, wearing all color of collars from pool cleaners to college
professors, who didn't think twice about spending $10-$15,000 per year
on their sport, for the simple reason that they loved it.

So I don't buy the expense argument. Sure, it's a factor. But the
expense of skydiving, which I believe has exceeded the rate of
increase of gliding, has not stopped its membership rolls from
steadily increasing the last two decades.

I, personally, do not believe there's enough marketing. I lived in
Southern Arizona for 13 years and never heard of Arizona Soaring Inc
(Estrella) until I looked for a place to take instruction. Turf, on
the other side of Phoenix, advertised glider rides on a local radio
station, but never mentioned instruction.

Do I have the answer? No. But like the days when I was excited about
skydiving, I share my joy of soaring with whoever will listen (and a
few who won't ;), and shamelessly plaster my office walls with photos
of my daughter sitting in my glider.

-ted/2NO

[Michel Talon]

Bert Willing > wrote:
> I think that is nonsense. As long as youngsters can afford to go paragliding
> (did you ever look into the cost of paragliding?) or skiing, money isn't the
> problem.
>

I think we are living in totally different sides of the society. I live
in a side where researchers and professors, and i don't speak of
students have barely enough money to support their family, and not to go
skying or other high expense stuff. I am old enough to have known a time
when very ordinary workers were able to afford gliding, and were the
majority of gliding clubs. With reasonings such as yours, these people
have gradually been excluded from clubs.

--

Michel TALON

[Malcolm Austin]

There's one important point that I haven't seen others put into the
discussion.

Taking your comment - (1975 we would make about 150 flights on a Sat & Sun)
I started in 1971 in Cyprus and trained on T21's, circuits were almost 4
minutes on
a good day and at the speed of landing you were never far from the launch
point.
It was easy in those days to get 50 or 60 launches in, with out rush using a
single cable
winch and a tractor as cable puller on our narrow runaway.

Now we tend to fly for longer, the costs are relative high in monitory terms
so we pick
when to fly.

I just wonder how the hours flown stack up now to those days. I know from
my data
which I have put into my own Excel sheet that my averages are dramatically
better now.

But the cost in time & money does mean you have to be dedicated on those
winter circuit
days. I'm lucky though that at my club in North Wales (Denbigh) we have a
good ridge
and excellent wave. Hence the reason our visitors last week got gold and
diamonds heights.

Malcolm..




"fred" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>A question often asked is "Why has the glider activity declined?" In
> 1975 we would make about 150 flights on a Sat & Sun. Nothing like that
> now but we had our best year 2006 in a long time. The decline (I
> believe) is the competition for disposable time Vegas is many times
> larger, Indian Casinos abound. Water craft, off road vehicles etc all
> compete.
> A well known ride operator told me that 1800gliderrides expected to
> sell FOUR MILLION in rides in 2007. All sold on the internet. They
> have no operations of their own, but have about 900 domain names, most
> of them the same. USE CAUTION. fred
>

[Bert Willing]

Well,

If you pay a glider 72,000 Euros and can get 12,000 hours out of it, the
amortization of the glider is 6 Euros per hour. That's not expensive.

In my club here in Switzerland we have people from all parts of society
(even school boys), we have all sorts of expensive gliders, and we have
aeroto launching.

If you go to Vinon or to Challes, it's the same thing. I don't see the
people you talk about being excluded from soaring through cost.


"Michel Talon" > wrote in message > I think we are
living in totally different sides of the society. I live
> in a side where researchers and professors, and i don't speak of
> students have barely enough money to support their family, and not to go
> skying or other high expense stuff. I am old enough to have known a time
> when very ordinary workers were able to afford gliding, and were the
> majority of gliding clubs. With reasonings such as yours, these people
> have gradually been excluded from clubs.
>
> --
>
> Michel TALON
>

[Michel Talon]

Bert Willing > wrote:
> Well,
>
> If you pay a glider 72,000 Euros and can get 12,000 hours out of it, the
> amortization of the glider is 6 Euros per hour. That's not expensive.
>
> In my club here in Switzerland we have people from all parts of society
> (even school boys), we have all sorts of expensive gliders, and we have
> aeroto launching.
>
> If you go to Vinon or to Challes, it's the same thing. I don't see the
> people you talk about being excluded from soaring through cost.
>

Here around Paris, i see that gliders are rented at a much higher price
that what you mention. Let me take the CVVFR which is known to be one of
the least expensive in the region, runned only by volunteers, so there
is absolutely nothing here devoted to salaries. Everything is published
on the web, easily accessible at http://cvvfr.free.fr
Price is
LS4-Janus-Pegase 17,40 euros/hour
LS 8, 15, 18 mètres 23,50 euros/hour
Duo-Discus 30,60 euros/hour

or, and this is a novelty, there is a possibility to pay a global sum

"Forfait heures illimitées"

On ASK21, ASK23, LS4, Janus, Pégase 1000 euros 1350 euros

i suppose that 1000 is for people aged less than 25.

To that you need to add the club cotisation and insurances. Let us say
around 300 euros if you come in winter to work on gliders or around
450 euros otherwise.

And then, cherry on the cake

Towing at 500 meters 20 euros ( aged < 25) 23 (aged more 25)

So i clearly see something of the order of > 2000 euros/year, and i am
quite sure you will have hard time to find less expensive while still
decent around Paris - and by the way i doubt very much it is less
expensive in the Alps.

Beleive it or not, 2000 euros is a non negligible sum for a lot of
people, particularly for those who have a lot of free time in their
hands to go to the gliderport. I am not speaking of the case of people
who can afford the luxury to buy their own glider. Anf finally there are
skying clubs also, and youngsters can afford to go skying using such
services for a fraction of the above cost. Myself being a parent, i know
i would have difficulties forking the above sum of money for each of my
children if they did want to do gliding, while i had no problem with
skying.




--

Michel TALON

[Bert Willing]

These prices are not bad, and the amount I cited only covers the
amortization of the glider (which is not the only cost involved).
Youngsters in France still get a reasonable amount of money as a"bourse",
and when I was starting gliding at the age of 16, I never asked my parents
to pay the bill, but I moved my ass and did some little jobs to earn money.
Of course, my parents helped me a little bit, but they wouldn't have had the
means to pay it all.
Now, if youngsters switch to the "assisted mode", they may well stay with
their Nintendos.


"Michel Talon" > wrote in message > Here around
Paris, i see that gliders are rented at a much higher price
> that what you mention. Let me take the CVVFR which is known to be one of
> the least expensive in the region, runned only by volunteers, so there
> is absolutely nothing here devoted to salaries. Everything is published
> on the web, easily accessible at http://cvvfr.free.fr
> Price is
> LS4-Janus-Pegase 17,40 euros/hour
> LS 8, 15, 18 mètres 23,50 euros/hour
> Duo-Discus 30,60 euros/hour
>
> or, and this is a novelty, there is a possibility to pay a global sum
>
> "Forfait heures illimitées"
>
> On ASK21, ASK23, LS4, Janus, Pégase 1000 euros 1350 euros
>
> i suppose that 1000 is for people aged less than 25.
>
> To that you need to add the club cotisation and insurances. Let us say
> around 300 euros if you come in winter to work on gliders or around
> 450 euros otherwise.
>
> And then, cherry on the cake
>
> Towing at 500 meters 20 euros ( aged < 25) 23 (aged more 25)
>
> So i clearly see something of the order of > 2000 euros/year, and i am
> quite sure you will have hard time to find less expensive while still
> decent around Paris - and by the way i doubt very much it is less
> expensive in the Alps.
>
> Beleive it or not, 2000 euros is a non negligible sum for a lot of
> people, particularly for those who have a lot of free time in their
> hands to go to the gliderport. I am not speaking of the case of people
> who can afford the luxury to buy their own glider. Anf finally there are
> skying clubs also, and youngsters can afford to go skying using such
> services for a fraction of the above cost. Myself being a parent, i know
> i would have difficulties forking the above sum of money for each of my
> children if they did want to do gliding, while i had no problem with
> skying.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Michel TALON
>

[Michel Talon]

Bert Willing > wrote:
> These prices are not bad, and the amount I cited only covers the
> amortization of the glider (which is not the only cost involved).
> Youngsters in France still get a reasonable amount of money as a"bourse",
> and when I was starting gliding at the age of 16, I never asked my parents
> to pay the bill, but I moved my ass and did some little jobs to earn money.
> Of course, my parents helped me a little bit, but they wouldn't have had the
> means to pay it all.
> Now, if youngsters switch to the "assisted mode", they may well stay with
> their Nintendos.
>

Now we agree, the prices are of the order i mentioned or higher, and
youngsters probably need to work during holidays to afford that. Then
they need to go to the gliderport (costs money, gazoline, etc.) and
spend all day long pushing gliders to fly perhaps 1 hour during the day.
Repeat that a fair number of days during the year. And you are surprised
they don't show in big numbers in the clubs?


--

Michel TALON

[Bert Willing]

Now that is an entirely different reason, to which I agree. Once you are
able to offer a flat rate (like 1,000 Euros), it doesn't matter that much
what the gliders did cost (amortization is a relatively small part of the
hourly cost). It still matters what the launch costs, and the clubs in
France better switch to winches rather than operating those money-sucking
Moranes.
Now if a 17 or 18 year old doesn't want to earn a little money during
holidays to make gliding happen, then he is not that much motivated.
If he does make this effort, then the club should offer him something more
rewarding than pushing around gliders for the best part of the day. At my
time, I was ok with that, but the youngsters today have much more of a
choice for "thrilling activities" with immediate reward...

"Michel Talon" > wrote in message
...

> Now we agree, the prices are of the order i mentioned or higher, and
> youngsters probably need to work during holidays to afford that. Then
> they need to go to the gliderport (costs money, gazoline, etc.) and
> spend all day long pushing gliders to fly perhaps 1 hour during the day.
> Repeat that a fair number of days during the year. And you are surprised
> they don't show in big numbers in the clubs?
>
>
> --
>
> Michel TALON
>

[Bill Gribble]

Michael Ash > writes
>>> Most people probably know where their local airport is and have
>>> some idea of how to procure an airplane ride if they felt like it, but how
>>> many people know where their nearest glider operation is located? How many
>>> realize that they could start learning as early as the next weekend and
>>> they could be flying solo in just a couple dozen flights?

I've lived within spitting distance of two glider clubs for about
fifteen years, was vaguely aware of one of them and oblivious to the
presence of the other until I finally decided the day had come for me to
do something about a life-long ambition of learning to glide and went
looking for the options.

I was shocked at how comparatively little it cost financially against
what I'd expected, and quite just how welcoming the club I joined turned
out to be towards newcomers like me. I was somewhat remorseful that I
hadn't realised this years ago. Had I done so, I'd have learnt to soar
in my late teens and early twenties, rather than trying to do so in my
mid thirties with all the other competing demands and responsibilities
that life at this point seems to bring.

I solo'd, got my bronze. Loved every second of it.

I'm not flying at the moment and missing it like hell, especially now
the sky has started popping with Cu and the new soaring season has
started. But it was time, not money that's put my soaring on hold for
the moment.

I have a couple of boys, aged seven and twelve respectively. Soaring is
something of a solo pursuit and one that absorbs whole days at the
weekend, and a gliding field is not a place for young kids, however
accommodating the club or friends and associates at the club might try
to be.

So for the minute, we've switched to sailing dinghies on a local pond,
and the boys laugh at me every time they catch me staring wistfully at
the sky and not paying attention to where I'm pointing the boat.

I guess my long-winded point is that whilst I agree with something a
previous poster wrote, people that want to glide find gliding, gliding
doesn't find them, I can't help but think that had gliding been just a
little more visible to me all those years back gliding would have had a
good few years out of me before I had my family instead of now having to
wait until my family grows up enough to let their dad back out to play
with the gliders again!

Even when there's a predisposition to the adventure of learning to fly,
aviation just doesn't figure into the everyday life of the everyday
bloke on the street. It's a completely different and quite alien world
to the uninitiated.

--
Bill Gribble
http://www.harlequin.uk.net
http://www.scapegoatsanon.demon.co.uk
"Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson

[[email protected]]

.... I've been trying to post this for days from my usual account and
it's not been working. Another try:

> I am often puzzled about
> the amount of effort put into trying to recruit youth into soaring.
> Our true market is the middle age and not youth.

Youth are the one steady renewable resource, more born every minute
not already committed to other things. Soaring is not just one
generation's opportunity (yours, mine...), and what membership
organization does NOT recruit youth? Also ("soaring needs youth") the
sport works better with young muscles and minds, people willing to
work cheap and long as towpilots, club officers etc., who buy old
equipment, learn fast. And ("youth need soaring") it is a noble role
in society for us to offer soaring to adolescents (as education,
career-building, socialization, for which sailplane communities are
excellent) and many existing glider guiders really enjoy taking part.
See:

http://www.ssa.org/Youth/youthships.asp
http://www.coloradosoaring.org/ssa/ssay/ycom.htm
http://www.greeleynet.com/~jhpc/SSAYouth.ppt
http://www.coloradosoaring.org/ssa/ssay/sailyth.htm

Hang-glider pilots sprang out of the 1970s, paragliders out of the
1990s, but soaring had already been a passion of people from the
1930s, 1950s... all were young once and many (most?) got hooked in
their youth.

> I don't think enough effort is given to
> market our sport to this segment, especially not to the hang gliding
> and paragliding world (where I came from).

I see more fresh high-level individualist pilots from that "world"
than anywhere else. So whatever is happening is already working.
Thank you.

--JHC

[2cernauta2]

On 16 Mar 2007 11:28:12 -0700, "fred" >
wrote:

>A question often asked is "Why has the glider activity declined?"
>A well known ride operator told me that 1800gliderrides expected to
>sell FOUR MILLION in rides in 2007.

I live in Italy, and I base my observations on club-managed soaring
activity. Almost no commercial operations are available in my country,
and are quite rare in Europe.

I believe that promotion of our sport can't benefit from glider rides.
Glider riders are expensive, not much fun, and a typical "been there,
done that" situation.
Intruduction courses are much better at retaining new members.
Costs are not the main reason for not getting into gliding.
Fear is.
Gliding is dangerous, IMVHO, or at least perceived as dangerous.

I have spoken with quite a number of people who have quit gliding
after a few or many years. Cost is the first topic they provide, but
if you ask some questions, available time (work, family) is generally
the 2nd. The third is having achieved only small goals (or, high
expectations and lesser results; results/costs ratio); this is
definitely harder to admit for most.
Finally, two topics get into play, and I strongly believe they are
most important:
.. the quality of sociality in the club, or the bad quality of human
relations (quarrelling between groups of members, disagreements, poor
management of the club, sometimes even intrusions in very private
aspects of family life...)
.. safety of the sport. In the 15 years of my gliding career, my
phonebook spots a black line in almost every page.

Sociality can be very hard to manage, bust must be addressed by the
club's management. When fights and quarrelling are going on, and the
members feel they have to "choose which side they should stand", or
they struggle to keep themselves out of the fight, my experience is
that the club will loose about 10percent of its members. And most of
the rest are quite unhappy.
I expect that commercial operations might be less prone to this
problem. If the operator is customer-oriented, of course.

Safety, and the achievement of reasonable goals, can in part be
addressed by a group of volunteers devoted to personalized, advanced
cross-country techiniques. But, it takes some very special kind of
people, to stay in gliding for a long time at high level of
commitment, like most of us do. We can't expect everyone to be like
us.

I believe any promotion/retention strategy can't be complete if it
doesn't aim at these two topics also.

Aldo Cernezzi

[Michel Talon]

2cernauta2 > wrote:
> Intruduction courses are much better at retaining new members.
> Costs are not the main reason for not getting into gliding.
> Fear is.
> Gliding is dangerous, IMVHO, or at least perceived as dangerous.
>
> I have spoken with quite a number of people who have quit gliding
> after a few or many years. Cost is the first topic they provide, but
> if you ask some questions, available time (work, family) is generally
> the 2nd. The third is having achieved only small goals (or, high
> expectations and lesser results; results/costs ratio); this is
> definitely harder to admit for most.
> Finally, two topics get into play, and I strongly believe they are
> most important:
> . the quality of sociality in the club, or the bad quality of human
> relations (quarrelling between groups of members, disagreements, poor
> management of the club, sometimes even intrusions in very private
> aspects of family life...)
> . safety of the sport. In the 15 years of my gliding career, my
> phonebook spots a black line in almost every page.
>
> Sociality can be very hard to manage, bust must be addressed by the
> club's management. When fights and quarrelling are going on, and the
> members feel they have to "choose which side they should stand", or
> they struggle to keep themselves out of the fight, my experience is
> that the club will loose about 10percent of its members. And most of
> the rest are quite unhappy.
> I expect that commercial operations might be less prone to this
> problem. If the operator is customer-oriented, of course.
>
> Safety, and the achievement of reasonable goals, can in part be
> addressed by a group of volunteers devoted to personalized, advanced
> cross-country techiniques. But, it takes some very special kind of
> people, to stay in gliding for a long time at high level of
> commitment, like most of us do. We can't expect everyone to be like
> us.
>
> I believe any promotion/retention strategy can't be complete if it
> doesn't aim at these two topics also.
>
> Aldo Cernezzi

Fantastic analysis, Aldo. Each of your points are so true. I have seen
each one occurring. In particular a lot of casualties, even for very
good pilots, even instructors. I would only add that, since only few
people will retain the necessary high level of commitment for a long
time, it is essential to gain new recruits among young people who are
the best fit to begin gliding (learn faster, progress faster, etc.).
And i maintain that number one factor why young people interested in
this activity don't join is money. For slightly older people it is time.
Of course, to attract young people, another essential factor is good
social management and the presence of other young people including
ladies. You will have hard time to attract young people in a crowd of
retirees. To say the truth, in the clubs i have seen, there has always
been a steady influx of young guys and girls. But after one of two
years, most of them have disappeared by lack of money-time-motivation,
whatever.






--

Michel TALON

[Andreas Maurer]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:49:41 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

>Price is
>LS4-Janus-Pegase 17,40 euros/hour
>LS 8, 15, 18 mètres 23,50 euros/hour
>Duo-Discus 30,60 euros/hour

Pretty amazing prices (I think at Soissons it's significantly
cheaper). I definitely couldn't have afforded to start up gliding in
your club, nor would I have fun today if I calculated the cost for a
simple 500 km triangle...


>So i clearly see something of the order of > 2000 euros/year, and i am
>quite sure you will have hard time to find less expensive while still
>decent around Paris - and by the way i doubt very much it is less
>expensive in the Alps.

I wonder what you are doing with all that money. Do you need to rent
your airfield?

In my club (with gliders at least as good as yours) the total cost per
year doesn't exceed 600 Euros per year.


Bye
Andreas

[[email protected]]

On Mar 21, 7:01 am, 2cernauta2 > wrote:
> On 16 Mar 2007 11:28:12 -0700, "fred" >
> wrote:
>
> >A question often asked is "Why has the glider activity declined?"
> >A well known ride operator told me that 1800gliderrides expected to
> >sell FOUR MILLION in rides in 2007.
>
> I live in Italy, and I base my observations on club-managed soaring
> activity. Almost no commercial operations are available in my country,
> and are quite rare in Europe.
>
> I believe that promotion of our sport can't benefit from glider rides.
> Glider riders are expensive, not much fun, and a typical "been there,
> done that" situation.
> Intruduction courses are much better at retaining new members.
> Costs are not the main reason for not getting into gliding.
> Fear is.
> Gliding is dangerous, IMVHO, or at least perceived as dangerous.
>
> I have spoken with quite a number of people who have quit gliding
> after a few or many years. Cost is the first topic they provide, but
> if you ask some questions, available time (work, family) is generally
> the 2nd. The third is having achieved only small goals (or, high
> expectations and lesser results; results/costs ratio); this is
> definitely harder to admit for most.
> Finally, two topics get into play, and I strongly believe they are
> most important:
> . the quality of sociality in the club, or the bad quality of human
> relations (quarrelling between groups of members, disagreements, poor
> management of the club, sometimes even intrusions in very private
> aspects of family life...)
> . safety of the sport. In the 15 years of my gliding career, my
> phonebook spots a black line in almost every page.
>
> Sociality can be very hard to manage, bust must be addressed by the
> club's management. When fights and quarrelling are going on, and the
> members feel they have to "choose which side they should stand", or
> they struggle to keep themselves out of the fight, my experience is
> that the club will loose about 10percent of its members. And most of
> the rest are quite unhappy.
> I expect that commercial operations might be less prone to this
> problem. If the operator is customer-oriented, of course.
>
> Safety, and the achievement of reasonable goals, can in part be
> addressed by a group of volunteers devoted to personalized, advanced
> cross-country techiniques. But, it takes some very special kind of
> people, to stay in gliding for a long time at high level of
> commitment, like most of us do. We can't expect everyone to be like
> us.
>
> I believe any promotion/retention strategy can't be complete if it
> doesn't aim at these two topics also.
>
> Aldo Cernezzi


Aldo,

I agree with your assesment. The social aspect of soaring is the
downfall of our sport and the society behind it.

Jacek
Washington State

[Michel Talon]

Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:49:41 +0000 (UTC),
> (Michel Talon) wrote:
>
> >Price is
> >LS4-Janus-Pegase 17,40 euros/hour
> >LS 8, 15, 18 mètres 23,50 euros/hour
> >Duo-Discus 30,60 euros/hour
>
> Pretty amazing prices (I think at Soissons it's significantly

Well it is certainly cheaper where it is impossible to fly. If i look at
Vinon's tarifs
http://www.vinon-soaring.fr
they are exactly of the same order, except the complete "forfait" is
more expensive:
"FORFAIT HEURES ILLIMITEES Toutes machines : 2200 euros".

> cheaper). I definitely couldn't have afforded to start up gliding in
> your club, nor would I have fun today if I calculated the cost for a
> simple 500 km triangle...

Happy to share this deduction with you. This is precisely the point a
lot of people are contesting.

>
>
> >So i clearly see something of the order of > 2000 euros/year, and i am
> >quite sure you will have hard time to find less expensive while still
> >decent around Paris - and by the way i doubt very much it is less
> >expensive in the Alps.
>
> I wonder what you are doing with all that money. Do you need to rent
> your airfield?

I have been member of this club, but mainly of Buno-Bonnevaux, which is
more expensive but has paid people to do instruction and work on gliders
in winter. In my experience, pure volunteer organizations are very
unfriendly, and one is happier in more professional ones, even paying
more. Anyways, both these clubs have to rent the airfield, of course,
pay for cutting grass, for water and electricity, for the installations,
for the periodic vists of the gliders, and planes, for reparations, and
whatever. Thsese clubs provide detailed expenses to members and i have
never seen anything suspicious.

>
> In my club (with gliders at least as good as yours) the total cost per
> year doesn't exceed 600 Euros per year.
>

Yes it is not the first time i hear that prices are infinitely less in
Germany. I have never understood how it is possible, since, as i said,
the above French prices can be justified very easily, and are
homogeneous among similar big clubs with modern fleet. Perhaps you have
enormous aids from german state that you are not aware of. From what i
have been told, things are worse in Italy, etc.


>
> Bye
> Andreas

--

Michel TALON

[Graeme Cant]

2cernauta2 wrote:
>....
> Sociality can be very hard to manage, bust must be addressed by the
> club's management. When fights and quarrelling are going on, and the
> members feel they have to "choose which side they should stand", or
> they struggle to keep themselves out of the fight, my experience is
> that the club will loose about 10percent of its members. And most of
> the rest are quite unhappy.
> I expect that commercial operations might be less prone to this
> problem. If the operator is customer-oriented, of course.

Regardless of orientation, commercial operators can fire problems - even
if the operator is wrong. At least the level of conflict is reduced and
that is more important than being right.

Clubs OTOH, have no real means of imposing discipline and conflict is
very hard to control. My wife, who lectures and researches in this area
tells me that it is actually a wonder that any voluntary association
survives for more than 5 years.

One feature of gliding clubs that helps them survive is the fixed assets
- buildings, site, aircraft, etc - which survive power struggles,
splits and personality conflicts. What changes are the people in
control. In our area, one club's splits have been the foundation of at
least three others which all prosper so there is a positive side!

GC

[Andreas Maurer[_1_]]

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:21:02 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

>Yes it is not the first time i hear that prices are infinitely less in
>Germany. I have never understood how it is possible, since, as i said,
>the above French prices can be justified very easily, and are
>homogeneous among similar big clubs with modern fleet. Perhaps you have
>enormous aids from german state that you are not aware of. From what i
>have been told, things are worse in Italy, etc.

This is what puzzles me, too - German clubs have absolutely no aids
from German authorities. On the other hand, we don't employ anyone at
all - all work is done by the members of the club.

From Soissons (which is basically a pure volunteer-driven club) they
had to pay one full-time employee who took care of the "tower",
airfield and club house. This one guy alone costs more than my club's
entire fleet - maybe this is the difference?


Bye
Andreas

[Bert Willing]

There is almost no aid from the German government. However, everey single
work is done by volunteers (including building the very infrastructe) and
mostly, launching is done by a winch.
Moreover, clubs often started out to build their first (wooden) gliders
themselves, and than reselling/renewing on regular intervalls so that after
50 years of that process, their capital base is pretty good (owning the
equipments, no loans, often owning the airfield).
One of the main sources for that is that Germany has lost both wars, and
powered flight was forbidden for years. The result is that anybody wanted to
fly turned to gliding... and even today, the density of glider pilots as 3
times higher than in France (make that: 3 times more volunteer work force
available to set up things).

"Michel Talon" > wrote in message
...
> Andreas Maurer > wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:49:41 +0000 (UTC),
>> (Michel Talon) wrote:
>>
>> >Price is
>> >LS4-Janus-Pegase 17,40 euros/hour
>> >LS 8, 15, 18 mètres 23,50 euros/hour
>> >Duo-Discus 30,60 euros/hour
>>
>> Pretty amazing prices (I think at Soissons it's significantly
>
> Well it is certainly cheaper where it is impossible to fly. If i look at
> Vinon's tarifs
> http://www.vinon-soaring.fr
> they are exactly of the same order, except the complete "forfait" is
> more expensive:
> "FORFAIT HEURES ILLIMITEES Toutes machines : 2200 euros".
>
>> cheaper). I definitely couldn't have afforded to start up gliding in
>> your club, nor would I have fun today if I calculated the cost for a
>> simple 500 km triangle...
>
> Happy to share this deduction with you. This is precisely the point a
> lot of people are contesting.
>
>>
>>
>> >So i clearly see something of the order of > 2000 euros/year, and i am
>> >quite sure you will have hard time to find less expensive while still
>> >decent around Paris - and by the way i doubt very much it is less
>> >expensive in the Alps.
>>
>> I wonder what you are doing with all that money. Do you need to rent
>> your airfield?
>
> I have been member of this club, but mainly of Buno-Bonnevaux, which is
> more expensive but has paid people to do instruction and work on gliders
> in winter. In my experience, pure volunteer organizations are very
> unfriendly, and one is happier in more professional ones, even paying
> more. Anyways, both these clubs have to rent the airfield, of course,
> pay for cutting grass, for water and electricity, for the installations,
> for the periodic vists of the gliders, and planes, for reparations, and
> whatever. Thsese clubs provide detailed expenses to members and i have
> never seen anything suspicious.
>
>>
>> In my club (with gliders at least as good as yours) the total cost per
>> year doesn't exceed 600 Euros per year.
>>
>
> Yes it is not the first time i hear that prices are infinitely less in
> Germany. I have never understood how it is possible, since, as i said,
> the above French prices can be justified very easily, and are
> homogeneous among similar big clubs with modern fleet. Perhaps you have
> enormous aids from german state that you are not aware of. From what i
> have been told, things are worse in Italy, etc.
>
>
>>
>> Bye
>> Andreas
>
> --
>
> Michel TALON
>

[Michel Talon]

Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:21:02 +0000 (UTC),
> (Michel Talon) wrote:
>
> >Yes it is not the first time i hear that prices are infinitely less in
> >Germany. I have never understood how it is possible, since, as i said,
> >the above French prices can be justified very easily, and are
> >homogeneous among similar big clubs with modern fleet. Perhaps you have
> >enormous aids from german state that you are not aware of. From what i
> >have been told, things are worse in Italy, etc.
>
> This is what puzzles me, too - German clubs have absolutely no aids
> from German authorities. On the other hand, we don't employ anyone at
> all - all work is done by the members of the club.
>
> From Soissons (which is basically a pure volunteer-driven club) they
> had to pay one full-time employee who took care of the "tower",
> airfield and club house. This one guy alone costs more than my club's
> entire fleet - maybe this is the difference?

Sincerely i don't know. At" Moret sur Loing" (CVVFR) there is absolutely
nobody employed, so this cannot be the explanation of the numbers i have
shown. As far as i know, an important part of the budget goes into
building provisions to buy new gliders. If you want to maintain your
fleet in reasonably current state, you have to regularly sell old
gliders and buy new ones, which are of course more expensive than the old
ones you sold. So you have to introduce an input stream of cash, or you
have to borrow money, which means paying twice the amount you would have
paid if you had made economies. As far as i know the people running the
CVVFR were very conscious of this necessity, and have always made
provisions. Of course one accident, broken glider, etc. ruins part of
these provisions. I think an important factor is also the question of
towing. If you have planes, first towing fees introduce an important
burden for users, but also for the club, periodic visits are very
expensive, etc. But the clubs i know are not in a position to use
winches because the airfields are too small.

>
>
> Bye
> Andreas

--

Michel TALON

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:11:16 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

>Sincerely i don't know. At" Moret sur Loing" (CVVFR) there is absolutely
>nobody employed, so this cannot be the explanation of the numbers i have
>shown.

Hmmm...

>As far as i know, an important part of the budget goes into
>building provisions to buy new gliders.

.... the same here...

>If you want to maintain your
>fleet in reasonably current state, you have to regularly sell old
>gliders and buy new ones, which are of course more expensive than the old
>ones you sold.

Yes. But that's manageable, too.


> So you have to introduce an input stream of cash, or you
>have to borrow money, which means paying twice the amount you would have
>paid if you had made economies.

In my club the members (instead of a bank) award low-interest loans
to the club - this works extremely well.


>As far as i know the people running the
>CVVFR were very conscious of this necessity, and have always made
>provisions. Of course one accident, broken glider, etc. ruins part of
>these provisions.

Hmmm... no insurances?
The major part of my club's income goes directly to the physical
damage insurance - each of our gliders is insured.

>I think an important factor is also the question of
>towing. If you have planes, first towing fees introduce an important
>burden for users, but also for the club, periodic visits are very
>expensive, etc. But the clubs i know are not in a position to use
>winches because the airfields are too small.

Indeed - aerotows are a major factor that makes gliding expensive (not
only in France...), but I've seen many hige French airfields that
could have have easily coped with winch operations.
Soissons even had a winch, but never used (and eventually sold) it.


Bye
Andreas

[Martin Gregorie]

Andreas Maurer wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:11:16 +0000 (UTC),
> (Michel Talon) wrote:
>
>> Sincerely i don't know. At" Moret sur Loing" (CVVFR) there is absolutely
>> nobody employed, so this cannot be the explanation of the numbers i have
>> shown.
>
> Hmmm...
>
>> As far as i know, an important part of the budget goes into
>> building provisions to buy new gliders.
>
> ... the same here...
>
>> If you want to maintain your
>> fleet in reasonably current state, you have to regularly sell old
>> gliders and buy new ones, which are of course more expensive than the old
>> ones you sold.
>
> Yes. But that's manageable, too.
>
>
>> So you have to introduce an input stream of cash, or you
>> have to borrow money, which means paying twice the amount you would have
>> paid if you had made economies.
>
> In my club the members (instead of a bank) award low-interest loans
> to the club - this works extremely well.
>
>
>> As far as i know the people running the
>> CVVFR were very conscious of this necessity, and have always made
>> provisions. Of course one accident, broken glider, etc. ruins part of
>> these provisions.
>
> Hmmm... no insurances?
> The major part of my club's income goes directly to the physical
> damage insurance - each of our gliders is insured.
>
>> I think an important factor is also the question of
>> towing. If you have planes, first towing fees introduce an important
>> burden for users, but also for the club, periodic visits are very
>> expensive, etc. But the clubs i know are not in a position to use
>> winches because the airfields are too small.
>
> Indeed - aerotows are a major factor that makes gliding expensive (not
> only in France...), but I've seen many hige French airfields that
> could have have easily coped with winch operations.
> Soissons even had a winch, but never used (and eventually sold) it.
>
How does airfield ownership/rental affect the situation in Germany and
France?

In the UK club two-seat insurance has rocketed over the last couple of
years to the point that my club can no longer afford to operate our T.21
- its the third party cover, not the hull insurance, that's hit clubs
here. The T.21 is of course worth nothing but, as its only flown on nice
summer days its 3rd party insurance rate per hour is huge.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

On Mar 16, 10:32 pm, "Ramy" > wrote:
> I don't think that casinos, watercrafts or off road vehicles compete
> with soaring. The decline in soaring is perfectly correlated with the
> birth of hang gliding and later paragliding. I am often puzzled about
> the amount of effort put into trying to recruit youth into soaring.
> Our true market is the middle age and not youth. I think it is largely
> a waste of efforts to try to attract youth. It is very hard to compete
> with hang gliding and paragliding, which appeals much more to
> youngsters who are actually interested in aviation due to their low
> cost, simplicity and quick learning. I dare to assume that most
> youngsters which are attracted to gliders are those who are mostly
> interested in a career in aviation.
> The true market is middle aged power pilots and veterans hang/para
> glider pilots who are ready to expand their horizon and can afford
> the cost and time involved. I don't think enough effort is given to
> market our sport to this segment, especially not to the hang gliding
> and paragliding world (where I came from). Just my humble opinion.
>
> As for 1800skyride.com and similar domains, they are a big scam
> targeting all the aviation ride business and causes serious problems
> to our ride operators. My club succedded in scaring them away from
> offerring rides in our area, hopefully others will follow suit. Check
> out the counter sitehttp://www.glidersailplanerides.com/and spread the word.
>
> Ramy
>
> On Mar 16, 11:28 am, "fred" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > A question often asked is "Why has the glider activity declined?" In
> > 1975 we would make about 150 flights on a Sat & Sun. Nothing like that
> > now but we had our best year 2006 in a long time. The decline (I
> > believe) is the competition for disposable time Vegas is many times
> > larger, Indian Casinos abound. Water craft, off road vehicles etc all
> > compete.
> > A well known ride operator told me that 1800gliderrides expected to
> > sell FOUR MILLION in rides in 2007. All sold on the internet. They
> > have no operations of their own, but have about 900 domain names, most
> > of them the same. USE CAUTION. fred- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

A few years ago at Aboyne, I had an interesting chat with a hang
glider pilot who was starting gliding. He was quite competitive but
did not have the £11,000 or so to buy a top competition hang glider.
There are some old but still very good glass gliders around like the
Kestrel 19, for less than that, so he decided to switch and was going
to buy a share in one when he was qualified.
FWIW there is a Kestrel newsgroup on Yahoo http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kestrel401/

On of the really interesting things about gliding is that it is a very
good conversation piece. Mention you go gliding and the you often
hear..."I've always wanted a flight in a glider....."

[bagmaker]

I would like to put another perspective, with great respect to the excellent previos posts.
Flying is not so alluring these days.
I soloed 20 odd years back, at that time "flying" was only just really becoming a viable option of travelling about ones country or world, in jet aircraft. Prior to that, in the times of aviation heroes, flying (anything) was relegated to dreams and the wealthy.

Now it is cheap and easy, book over the web, $50 and your in the air! People perceive this as flight!

Now there are very few flying heroes, the days of a sea of humanity around a homecoming trans-atlantic pioneer, barnstormer or fighter pilot have well past.
Decades past between the records, when they break it is 3rd page news, as we have seen with Branson, Fossett and Ohlmann quite recently.

This discussion usually ends with

1 money
2 time
3 we do get people into the sport, we just dont retain them.

These are possibly true but I also beleive flight is not as "gee whiz" as it was when most of us took it up.

The upside is most people who do fly think that flight is limited to looking out from a pea-sized porthole, endless security and being served small drinks. The reality is far more exciting for the senses, as we know, and we need to grab that knowledge and show newcomers. Freedom can still be had in aviation!

When younger I was, I found the money and I found the time to do whatever I was hooked on and I imagine so will the youth of today, the trick is to get them hooked and to KEEP them hooked.
Danger is never a consideration to a 15 - 25 year old, sometimes even a drawcard.

I have rambled, its late!

bagger

[Andreas Maurer]

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:19:06 +0000, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:


>How does airfield ownership/rental affect the situation in Germany and
>France?

In Germany there is a wide variety of airfield usage, ranging from
flying on active German Airforce airfields (paying very little rent)
over rented grass strips to own airfields (that became available after
1990 when many military installations in Germany were shut down and
their real estates were sold).

In Germany usually the highest priority of a gliding club is to keep
the costs for gliding low, while in France I often see comparatively
huge glider fleets for few active pilots, resulting in far higher
total operating costs.


>In the UK club two-seat insurance has rocketed over the last couple of
>years to the point that my club can no longer afford to operate our T.21
>- its the third party cover, not the hull insurance, that's hit clubs
>here. The T.21 is of course worth nothing but, as its only flown on nice
>summer days its 3rd party insurance rate per hour is huge.

The fees for 3rd-party insurances have risen in Germany, too, but
overall they're still affordable.

Bye
Andreas

[Martin Gregorie]

bagmaker wrote:
> These are possibly true but I also beleive flight is not as "gee whiz"
> as it was when most of us took it up.
>
> The upside is most people who do fly think that flight is limited to
> looking out from a pea-sized porthole, endless security and being
> served small drinks.
>
Are you sure you didn't mean the downside?

To me riding in a jetliner with the tiny porthole and the drinkies is
indistinguishable from traveling in a luxury coach or a train (though
these have bigger windows and fewer hostesses) and is about as exciting.

Possibly our biggest problem is to get a potential pilot into a glider
in the first place so they become aware of the difference between what
we do and the airline experience.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Ramy]

On Mar 25, 6:22 am, wrote:
> A few years ago at Aboyne, I had an interesting chat with a hang
> glider pilot who was starting gliding. He was quite competitive but
> did not have the £11,000 or so to buy a top competition hang glider.
> There are some old but still very good glass gliders around like the
> Kestrel 19, for less than that, so he decided to switch and was going
> to buy a share in one when he was qualified.

Interesting case, as in the US there is no way one will save money by
moving from hang gliding to gliding (assuming maintaining the same
level of activity). Comparing a top of the line 11,000 hang glider
with a Kestrel is like comparing apple to oranges, the equivalent is
more like a $100,000 sailplane. The ratio is close to 10:1 in price,
so the equivalent to the Kestrel will be the typical $2000-$3000 hang
glider.
Bottom line, owning a sailplane cost about 10 times more than hang
glider, so does the cost of repairs and maintenance. One may be able
to keep the same cost by buying a small share or joining a club, but
will take a big hit on the level of activity and flexibility.

Ramy

[Vsoars]

On Mar 21, 10:38 am, (Michel Talon) wrote:
> 2cernauta2 > wrote:
> > Intruduction courses are much better at retaining new members.
> > Costs are not the main reason for not getting into gliding.
> > Fear is.
> > Gliding is dangerous, IMVHO, or at least perceived as dangerous.
>
> > I have spoken with quite a number of people who have quit gliding
> > after a few or many years. Cost is the first topic they provide, but
> > if you ask some questions, available time (work, family) is generally
> > the 2nd. The third is having achieved only small goals (or, high
> > expectations and lesser results; results/costs ratio); this is
> > definitely harder to admit for most.
> > Finally, two topics get into play, and I strongly believe they are
> > most important:
> > . the quality of sociality in the club, or the bad quality of human
> > relations (quarrelling between groups of members, disagreements, poor
> > management of the club, sometimes even intrusions in very private
> > aspects of family life...)
> > . safety of the sport. In the 15 years of my gliding career, my
> > phonebook spots a black line in almost every page.
>
> > Sociality can be very hard to manage, bust must be addressed by the
> > club's management. When fights and quarrelling are going on, and the
> > members feel they have to "choose which side they should stand", or
> > they struggle to keep themselves out of the fight, my experience is
> > that the club will loose about 10percent of its members. And most of
> > the rest are quite unhappy.
> > I expect that commercial operations might be less prone to this
> > problem. If the operator is customer-oriented, of course.
>
> > Safety, and the achievement of reasonable goals, can in part be
> > addressed by a group of volunteers devoted to personalized, advanced
> > cross-country techiniques. But, it takes some very special kind of
> > people, to stay in gliding for a long time at high level of
> > commitment, like most of us do. We can't expect everyone to be like
> > us.
>
> > I believe any promotion/retention strategy can't be complete if it
> > doesn't aim at these two topics also.
>
> > Aldo Cernezzi
>
> Fantastic analysis, Aldo. Each of your points are so true. I have seen
> each one occurring. In particular a lot of casualties, even for very
> good pilots, even instructors. I would only add that, since only few
> people will retain the necessary high level of commitment for a long
> time, it is essential to gain new recruits among young people who are
> the best fit to begin gliding (learn faster, progress faster, etc.).
> And i maintain that number one factor why young people interested in
> this activity don't join is money. For slightly older people it is time.
> Of course, to attract young people, another essential factor is good
> social management and the presence of other young people including
> ladies. You will have hard time to attract young people in a crowd of
> retirees. To say the truth, in the clubs i have seen, there has always
> been a steady influx of young guys and girls. But after one of two
> years, most of them have disappeared by lack of money-time-motivation,
> whatever.
>
> --
>
> Michel TALON- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I have enjoyed reading the many posts on growing soaring. The one
question I have not heard is, "What can I do to promote soaring?"

Here are some actions you can take that will help promote soaring:

Contact your local press: Getting media attention isn't difficult. I
will be glad to help. The SOARING PUBLICITY HANDBOOK is filled with
ideas and templates to make it easy. In a recent issue of SOARING, I
made an offer to write press releases for glider organizations to jump
start the process.

If you would like to have an electronic form of the handbook, contact
me at . You can view the handbook on-line at
http://www.ssa.org/members/governance/volunteers.asp Click on the
Publicity Committee's Home Page.

Write: A number of SSA members, including me, have written articles
for aviation and general audience magazines. Use your connections -
professional publications, alumni magazines, etc. to find a
publication opportunity.

Create an attention-grabbing YouTube video. YouTube has some
absolutely fantastic soaring /gliding photography.

Contact your local TV stations: The TODAY show featured Lester Holt's
flight in a sailplane, and several advertisements use sailplanes. I
have found local television stations are also receptive to the idea of
featuring local soaring.

Look at the web sites of clubs with strong youth programs. Contact
club members with connections to the CAP or scouting and find ways to
work with those groups.

Airshow: Going to Oshkosh? Volunteer at the SSA booth. Many smaller
shows love to include gliders. Offer to display your ship.

Join and share your success with the Promote Soaring e-mail group.
Contact me to sign up.

Lots of people submit ideas about what ought to be done. That is
helpful if the suggestions are accompanied by a commitment to act.
Today is the perfect time to make an effort to introduce soaring to
your community

[Eric Greenwell]

Ramy wrote:
> On Mar 25, 6:22 am, wrote:
>> A few years ago at Aboyne, I had an interesting chat with a hang
>> glider pilot who was starting gliding. He was quite competitive but
>> did not have the £11,000 or so to buy a top competition hang glider.
>> There are some old but still very good glass gliders around like the
>> Kestrel 19, for less than that, so he decided to switch and was going
>> to buy a share in one when he was qualified.
>
> Interesting case, as in the US there is no way one will save money by
> moving from hang gliding to gliding (assuming maintaining the same
> level of activity). Comparing a top of the line 11,000 hang glider
> with a Kestrel is like comparing apple to oranges, the equivalent is
> more like a $100,000 sailplane. The ratio is close to 10:1 in price,
> so the equivalent to the Kestrel will be the typical $2000-$3000 hang
> glider.

The hang glider pilot may not see it that way at all, instead, he
discovers he can spend 11,000 (pounds, dollars, whatever) on a sailplane
and get FAR more performance than he could with even the finest hang
glider avialable. He can have a great cross-country flight covering much
more ground and it doesn't end in a retrieve like it always did in his
hang glider. Further, he is totally impressed that he can fly that
glider for several years and sell it for as much, likely more, than he
paid for it, while his $11,000 hang glider has lost value. And he has a
nice, easy drive to the airport instead of beating up his truck on
logging roads up some mountain to the launch site.

Oh, one more thing: the pilot's wife is so pleased that he now makes it
home in time for dinner!

Based on a conversation with a former hang glider pilot that was
spending less by soaring in a sailplane, flying more, and enjoying it
more. And it was only a Ka-6e that he was flying.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Ron Gleason]

Eric, many of your points are valid and some of the reasons I switched
last year to sailplanes from HG.

When I go flying in my sailplane I fly and typically am able to soar
95+% of the time and 2/3's of the time I am able to do some XC. My
percentage of flying, soaring and XC in my HG was 50%. If I consider
the time invested in trying to fly it is cheaper, in the long run, to
fly sail planes. The number of days I can fly and fly safely is much
greater.

I have also introduced a few HG pilots to sailplanes and when
explaining the minimal costs of the club here in UT they are amazed at
how cheap it is per hour of flying!

Regarding numbers for HG, my last HG cost me ~$13,000 (list price at
1.32 for the euro is $16,950) and provides a 20/1 glide and a ~110 FPM
sink rate. All carbon construction, except for dacron sail, 14.6
meter span and has spoilers and flaps for controls! Our competition
system and format is very similar to sailplane and the majority of
time we land back at the home field. Most HG competitions are held in
the flat lands and aerotow with ultralights is the ticket! In 2006
the world championships were held in FL, right down the road from
Seminole where the US Seniors are held, and we averaged 85-120 mile
triangle flights per day.

Just wanted to shed some light on the current technology of HG's. I
agree that sailplane clubs should be aware of the local HG and PG
clubs, make friends with them and be sure to educate them low cost of
sail plane flying.

Ron Gleason

[Frank Whiteley]

On Mar 27, 5:52 am, "Ron Gleason" > wrote:
> Eric, many of your points are valid and some of the reasons I switched
> last year to sailplanes from HG.
>
> When I go flying in my sailplane I fly and typically am able to soar
> 95+% of the time and 2/3's of the time I am able to do some XC. My
> percentage of flying, soaring and XC in my HG was 50%. If I consider
> the time invested in trying to fly it is cheaper, in the long run, to
> fly sail planes. The number of days I can fly and fly safely is much
> greater.
>
> I have also introduced a few HG pilots to sailplanes and when
> explaining the minimal costs of the club here in UT they are amazed at
> how cheap it is per hour of flying!
>
> Regarding numbers for HG, my last HG cost me ~$13,000 (list price at
> 1.32 for the euro is $16,950) and provides a 20/1 glide and a ~110 FPM
> sink rate. All carbon construction, except for dacron sail, 14.6
> meter span and has spoilers and flaps for controls! Our competition
> system and format is very similar to sailplane and the majority of
> time we land back at the home field. Most HG competitions are held in
> the flat lands and aerotow with ultralights is the ticket! In 2006
> the world championships were held in FL, right down the road from
> Seminole where the US Seniors are held, and we averaged 85-120 mile
> triangle flights per day.
>
> Just wanted to shed some light on the current technology of HG's. I
> agree that sailplane clubs should be aware of the local HG and PG
> clubs, make friends with them and be sure to educate them low cost of
> sail plane flying.
>
> Ron Gleason

IMVHO, most of the competitive HG pilots I know about that have
embraced sailplanes are flying the stink out of them and are
outstanding XC pilots.

Bring it on,

Frank Whiteley

[Eric Greenwell]

Frank Whiteley wrote:

>>
>> Just wanted to shed some light on the current technology of HG's. I
>> agree that sailplane clubs should be aware of the local HG and PG
>> clubs, make friends with them and be sure to educate them low cost of
>> sail plane flying.
>>
>> Ron Gleason
>
> IMVHO, most of the competitive HG pilots I know about that have
> embraced sailplanes are flying the stink out of them and are
> outstanding XC pilots.

That's been my observation, also. My belief is anyone that flies a HG
actively for several hundred hours has the determination, skills, and
judgment to do well and fly safely in sailplane. And it doesn't take
long for them to learn which way to move the stick, either.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Ramy]

Yes, all good and valid points, and precisely the reason why I also
switched from HG to sailplanes. And the cost per XC mile is indeed
lower. But the overall cost of owning a half decent glider and paying
for aerotows is still a magnitude compare to HG IMHO. There are many
good reasons to switch from HG to sailplanes, but cost isn't one of
them...

Ramy

On Mar 27, 4:52 am, "Ron Gleason" > wrote:
> Eric, many of your points are valid and some of the reasons I switched
> last year to sailplanes from HG.
>
> When I go flying in my sailplane I fly and typically am able to soar
> 95+% of the time and 2/3's of the time I am able to do some XC. My
> percentage of flying, soaring and XC in my HG was 50%. If I consider
> the time invested in trying to fly it is cheaper, in the long run, to
> fly sail planes. The number of days I can fly and fly safely is much
> greater.
>
> I have also introduced a few HG pilots to sailplanes and when
> explaining the minimal costs of the club here in UT they are amazed at
> how cheap it is per hour of flying!
>
> Regarding numbers for HG, my last HG cost me ~$13,000 (list price at
> 1.32 for the euro is $16,950) and provides a 20/1 glide and a ~110 FPM
> sink rate. All carbon construction, except for dacron sail, 14.6
> meter span and has spoilers and flaps for controls! Our competition
> system and format is very similar to sailplane and the majority of
> time we land back at the home field. Most HG competitions are held in
> the flat lands and aerotow with ultralights is the ticket! In 2006
> the world championships were held in FL, right down the road from
> Seminole where the US Seniors are held, and we averaged 85-120 mile
> triangle flights per day.
>
> Just wanted to shed some light on the current technology of HG's. I
> agree that sailplane clubs should be aware of the local HG and PG
> clubs, make friends with them and be sure to educate them low cost of
> sail plane flying.
>
> Ron Gleason

[Ron Gleason]

Ramy, we can agree to disagree. I just hope I am able to achieve a
tenth of what you have done with sail planes.

Another advantage with sail planes is the ability to join a club, in
most areas, and have access to ships without having to purchase your
own equipment.

Soaring season is just starting here in UT, well the tow facilities
are just opening up!

Happy soaring

Ron Gleason

[Tony Verhulst]

> Oh, one more thing: the pilot's wife is so pleased that he now makes it
> home in time for dinner!

I can relate to that :-)

> Based on a conversation with a former hang glider pilot that was
> spending less by soaring in a sailplane, flying more, and enjoying it
> more. And it was only a Ka-6e that he was flying.

For me, in the Northeast US, a day of hang gliding meant a multi-hour
drive (one way), and then a long hike to the launch site - it was an all
day affair. Because we have trees everywhere, launch site usability on a
given day was often limited by the wind direction. Trekking to the
launch site and then not flying got old after a while (OK, it took a
couple of decades :-) ).

I'm very happy flying my LS6 but nothing can replace flying from the top
of a mountain of launching from a cliff (very different on a calm day
than on a windy day). I miss it sometimes.

Tony V.

[Eric Greenwell]

Tony Verhulst wrote:
>
>> Oh, one more thing: the pilot's wife is so pleased that he now makes
>> it home in time for dinner!
>
> I can relate to that :-)
>
>> Based on a conversation with a former hang glider pilot that was
>> spending less by soaring in a sailplane, flying more, and enjoying it
>> more. And it was only a Ka-6e that he was flying.
>
> For me, in the Northeast US, a day of hang gliding meant a multi-hour
> drive (one way), and then a long hike to the launch site - it was an all
> day affair. Because we have trees everywhere, launch site usability on a
> given day was often limited by the wind direction. Trekking to the
> launch site and then not flying got old after a while (OK, it took a
> couple of decades :-) ).
>
> I'm very happy flying my LS6 but nothing can replace flying from the top
> of a mountain of launching from a cliff (very different on a calm day
> than on a windy day). I miss it sometimes.

Sounds like someone should also own a SparrowHawk and some bungey cord!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[[email protected]]

On Mar 16, 11:28 am, "fred" > wrote:
> A question often asked is "Why has the glider activity declined?" In
> 1975 we would make about 150 flights on a Sat & Sun. Nothing like that
> now but we had our best year 2006 in a long time. The decline (I
> believe) is the competition for disposable time Vegas is many times
> larger, Indian Casinos abound. Water craft, off road vehicles etc all
> compete.
> A well known ride operator told me that 1800gliderrides expected to
> sell FOUR MILLION in rides in 2007. All sold on the internet. They
> have no operations of their own, but have about 900 domain names, most
> of them the same. USE CAUTION. fred

One often cited reason for the decline is cost. But if cost was so
central it would also impact aviation in general. Yet the number of
people professionally employed in flight traing has increased from
under 11,000 in 1998 to over 14,000 in 2004, an increase of 27%
(http://www.census.gov/epcd/susb/2001/us/US611512.HTM). Consequently,
I don't think that cost is a detriment any more today than it was 10
years ago.

Personally, I think there are simply more recreational opportunities
competing for the same people, and they will chose the option that is
most convenient. GA grows because it is very easy to find a commercial
operator who will train you how to fly. Compare that to gliding (worse
for soaring). People in large metropolitan areas have to spend a full
day, at a minimum, to get glider training (providing that they are
lucky enough to be within a 2-3 hour drive of a glider site with
training).

Tom

[Mike Schumann]

GA isn't growing either. The number of student pilot licenses issued has
dropped over 20% in the last few years. One of the leading flight schools
in the Twin Cities (Wings) has just closed as a result.

Mike Schumann

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Mar 16, 11:28 am, "fred" > wrote:
>> A question often asked is "Why has the glider activity declined?" In
>> 1975 we would make about 150 flights on a Sat & Sun. Nothing like that
>> now but we had our best year 2006 in a long time. The decline (I
>> believe) is the competition for disposable time Vegas is many times
>> larger, Indian Casinos abound. Water craft, off road vehicles etc all
>> compete.
>> A well known ride operator told me that 1800gliderrides expected to
>> sell FOUR MILLION in rides in 2007. All sold on the internet. They
>> have no operations of their own, but have about 900 domain names, most
>> of them the same. USE CAUTION. fred
>
> One often cited reason for the decline is cost. But if cost was so
> central it would also impact aviation in general. Yet the number of
> people professionally employed in flight traing has increased from
> under 11,000 in 1998 to over 14,000 in 2004, an increase of 27%
> (http://www.census.gov/epcd/susb/2001/us/US611512.HTM). Consequently,
> I don't think that cost is a detriment any more today than it was 10
> years ago.
>
> Personally, I think there are simply more recreational opportunities
> competing for the same people, and they will chose the option that is
> most convenient. GA grows because it is very easy to find a commercial
> operator who will train you how to fly. Compare that to gliding (worse
> for soaring). People in large metropolitan areas have to spend a full
> day, at a minimum, to get glider training (providing that they are
> lucky enough to be within a 2-3 hour drive of a glider site with
> training).
>
> Tom
>



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Michel Talon]

Mike Schumann > wrote:
> GA isn't growing either. The number of student pilot licenses issued has
> dropped over 20% in the last few years. One of the leading flight schools
> in the Twin Cities (Wings) has just closed as a result.
>
> Mike Schumann
>

Of course. People practising such activities tend to be wealthier than
the average, and so sincerely believe that cost is not a problem. They
are completely overlooking the fact that they belong to an extremely
small minority, and that for the vast majority of people, aviation
activities are completely cost forbidden.

--

Michel TALON

[Shawn[_3_]]

Michel Talon wrote:
> Mike Schumann > wrote:
>> GA isn't growing either. The number of student pilot licenses issued has
>> dropped over 20% in the last few years. One of the leading flight schools
>> in the Twin Cities (Wings) has just closed as a result.
>>
>> Mike Schumann
>>
>
> Of course. People practising such activities tend to be wealthier than
> the average, and so sincerely believe that cost is not a problem. They
> are completely overlooking the fact that they belong to an extremely
> small minority, and that for the vast majority of people, aviation
> activities are completely cost forbidden.
>

The vast majority of people can't afford second homes either, but that
business has boomed in the US in recent years.


Shawn

[[email protected]]

> The vast majority of people can't afford second homes either, but that
> business has boomed in the US in recent years.
>
> Shawn


Ha!!, maybe we need crooked mortgage lenders to run glider schools :)
It ain't about the money for the boomer crowd...and I hold out hope as
their knees start to creak more they may become a better source of
newbies. Look at the HG crowd, without them wearing out their landing
gears, soaring would really be hurting for new members. I think the
PG crowd also has potential to be the gateway into sailplanes as
well...but a few years off for that group still.

[Shawn[_3_]]

wrote:
>> The vast majority of people can't afford second homes either, but that
>> business has boomed in the US in recent years.
>>
>> Shawn
>
>
> Ha!!, maybe we need crooked mortgage lenders to run glider schools :)

I had that thought too.


> It ain't about the money for the boomer crowd...and I hold out hope as
> their knees start to creak more they may become a better source of
> newbies. Look at the HG crowd, without them wearing out their landing
> gears, soaring would really be hurting for new members. I think the
> PG crowd also has potential to be the gateway into sailplanes as
> well...but a few years off for that group still.

I think we would do well to create the dogma that that is the normal
progression of things in the soaring world.


Shawn

[Cats]

On Apr 10, 9:34 am, (Michel Talon) wrote:
> Mike Schumann > wrote:
> > GA isn't growing either. The number of student pilot licenses issued has
> > dropped over 20% in the last few years. One of the leading flight schools
> > in the Twin Cities (Wings) has just closed as a result.
>
> > Mike Schumann
>
> Of course. People practising such activities tend to be wealthier than
> the average, and so sincerely believe that cost is not a problem. They
> are completely overlooking the fact that they belong to an extremely
> small minority, and that for the vast majority of people, aviation
> activities are completely cost forbidden.

There are lots of expensive horses in fields round where I live.
Compared to gliding, riding can be pretty expensive for anyone with
any ambition to compete. Not only are good horses expensive (in the
UK), they eat, need shoing, and so on. There are also plenty of off-
shore boats racing - another expensive hobby.

[Jack]

Michel Talon wrote:
> Mike Schumann > wrote:
>> GA isn't growing either. The number of student pilot licenses issued has
>> dropped over 20% in the last few years. One of the leading flight schools
>> in the Twin Cities (Wings) has just closed as a result.
>>
>> Mike Schumann
>>
>
> Of course. People practising such activities tend to be wealthier than
> the average, and so sincerely believe that cost is not a problem. They
> are completely overlooking the fact that they belong to an extremely
> small minority, and that for the vast majority of people, aviation
> activities are completely cost forbidden.

A large number of students/pilots (for the full range of ratings)
have also come from foreign countries for training in the USA,
historically. That was reduced greatly after 9/11. This has to have
some effect on the referenced statistics. Some training
establishments have gone out of business as a direct result of the
loss of foreign students.

"The vast majority of people" are not those with whom we are
concerned, nor is it very expensive to get training in a glider up
through the PP-G rating. Familiarity with the opportunity and the
motivation to put aside the other temptations offered by our very
comfortable society are the main factors, IMO. Those who are by no
means "wealthier than average" are today often found to be enjoying
flat screen TV's which cost as much as the training for a private
pilot certificate in a glider.

Get people into a glider and familiarize them with what they can do
as a glider pilot, and you'll recruit them. Watch those commercial
and club operations which continue to thrive and emulate them. This
is not a systemic problem so much as a problem at the local club
grassroots level. People who would otherwise be flying Cessnas, but
think it's too expensive today, should be flying sailplanes.

Show them the pure, eco-friendly freedom of sailplane flight and
you'll hook them in great numbers. Our club needs a couple more
modern two-seaters. I'd bet your does, too. And when you get these
new people, keep them by emphasizing cross-country flying. Don't let
them slip away out of boredom from being tethered to the windsock.


Jack

[Mike Schumann]

2 seat gliders are definitely a key issue. Without attractive and available
2 seat gliders, you can't give rides to new blood. There's nothing more
frustrating than inviting some friends to go flying with you on a weekend,
and then having them stand around for 4-5 hours because there are way too
many people trying to share a limited pool of dual gliders.

Mike Schumann

"Jack" > wrote in message
...
> Michel Talon wrote:
>> Mike Schumann > wrote:
>>> GA isn't growing either. The number of student pilot licenses issued
>>> has dropped over 20% in the last few years. One of the leading flight
>>> schools in the Twin Cities (Wings) has just closed as a result.
>>>
>>> Mike Schumann
>>>
>> Of course. People practising such activities tend to be wealthier than
>> the average, and so sincerely believe that cost is not a problem. They
>> are completely overlooking the fact that they belong to an extremely
>> small minority, and that for the vast majority of people, aviation
>> activities are completely cost forbidden.
>
> A large number of students/pilots (for the full range of ratings) have
> also come from foreign countries for training in the USA, historically.
> That was reduced greatly after 9/11. This has to have some effect on the
> referenced statistics. Some training establishments have gone out of
> business as a direct result of the loss of foreign students.
>
> "The vast majority of people" are not those with whom we are concerned,
> nor is it very expensive to get training in a glider up through the PP-G
> rating. Familiarity with the opportunity and the motivation to put aside
> the other temptations offered by our very comfortable society are the main
> factors, IMO. Those who are by no means "wealthier than average" are today
> often found to be enjoying flat screen TV's which cost as much as the
> training for a private pilot certificate in a glider.
>
> Get people into a glider and familiarize them with what they can do as a
> glider pilot, and you'll recruit them. Watch those commercial and club
> operations which continue to thrive and emulate them. This is not a
> systemic problem so much as a problem at the local club grassroots level.
> People who would otherwise be flying Cessnas, but think it's too expensive
> today, should be flying sailplanes.
>
> Show them the pure, eco-friendly freedom of sailplane flight and you'll
> hook them in great numbers. Our club needs a couple more modern
> two-seaters. I'd bet your does, too. And when you get these new people,
> keep them by emphasizing cross-country flying. Don't let them slip away
> out of boredom from being tethered to the windsock.
>
>
> Jack



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Vsoars]

Using on-line Schedulemaster enables our club to maximize use of the
two-place ships. Thanks to this program, club members don't have to
wait for hours to get a ship.

Let people know how inexpensive soaring is. It's not a matter of how
much one can spend on high-end sailplanes ; it's how inexpensive it is
become a soaring pilot that matters. One doesn't have to earn a lot of
money to make that dream come true. Join the Promote soaring Team and
help get the word out. Go to the SSA Publicity Committee Home page
for contact information.

On Apr 10, 7:36 pm, "Mike Schumann" <mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com> wrote:
> 2 seat gliders are definitely a key issue. Without attractive and available
> 2 seat gliders, you can't give rides to new blood. There's nothing more
> frustrating than inviting some friends to go flying with you on a weekend,
> and then having them stand around for 4-5 hours because there are way too
> many people trying to share a limited pool of dual gliders.
>
> Mike Schumann
>
> "Jack" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Michel Talon wrote:
> >> Mike Schumann > wrote:
> >>> GA isn't growing either. The number of student pilot licenses issued
> >>> has dropped over 20% in the last few years. One of the leading flight
> >>> schools in the Twin Cities (Wings) has just closed as a result.
>
> >>> Mike Schumann
>
> >> Of course. People practising such activities tend to be wealthier than
> >> the average, and so sincerely believe that cost is not a problem. They
> >> are completely overlooking the fact that they belong to an extremely
> >> small minority, and that for the vast majority of people, aviation
> >> activities are completely cost forbidden.
>
> > A large number of students/pilots (for the full range of ratings) have
> > also come from foreign countries for training in the USA, historically.
> > That was reduced greatly after 9/11. This has to have some effect on the
> > referenced statistics. Some training establishments have gone out of
> > business as a direct result of the loss of foreign students.
>
> > "The vast majority of people" are not those with whom we are concerned,
> > nor is it very expensive to get training in a glider up through the PP-G
> > rating. Familiarity with the opportunity and the motivation to put aside
> > the other temptations offered by our very comfortable society are the main
> > factors, IMO. Those who are by no means "wealthier than average" are today
> > often found to be enjoying flat screen TV's which cost as much as the
> > training for a private pilot certificate in a glider.
>
> > Get people into a glider and familiarize them with what they can do as a
> > glider pilot, and you'll recruit them. Watch those commercial and club
> > operations which continue to thrive and emulate them. This is not a
> > systemic problem so much as a problem at the local club grassroots level.
> > People who would otherwise be flying Cessnas, but think it's too expensive
> > today, should be flying sailplanes.
>
> > Show them the pure, eco-friendly freedom of sailplane flight and you'll
> > hook them in great numbers. Our club needs a couple more modern
> > two-seaters. I'd bet your does, too. And when you get these new people,
> > keep them by emphasizing cross-country flying. Don't let them slip away
> > out of boredom from being tethered to the windsock.
>
> > Jack
>
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