Cloud Flying

[[email protected]]

Does anyone still do this? It is illegal in the USA but does anyone do
it anywhere else? Be glad to have any info about articles/accounts of
people who have done this.
Also has anyone been able to climb up the sunny side of a cumulus
cloud? Read somewhere that one famous glider pilot did this and he
said it was the flight of his life.
TIA
George (ex-kestrel254)

[Erik Braun]

wrote:

> Does anyone still do this? It is illegal in the USA but does anyone do
> it anywhere else? Be glad to have any info about articles/accounts of
> people who have done this.

In Germany, too, AFAIK.

> Also has anyone been able to climb up the sunny side of a cumulus
> cloud? Read somewhere that one famous glider pilot did this and he
> said it was the flight of his life.

I did this twice on different occasions. It isn't always the sunny side you
can climb, but the upwind one.
The first time was several years ago over a power plant with a special
cooling tower that provides great thermals. While circling around a kind of
cloud hose, another Cu showed up about 300 ft below me. Because of strong
wind that day, I flew to the upwind side of it and was able to climb a few
hundred feet above cloud level in front of the quickly building cloud.
It was very similar to ridge soaring but without fear of catching a tree or
rock.
Another time I found very different cloud base altitudes at the border of
two different masses of air. Flying from the higher cloud base in the
direction of the lower one against the wind, I found laminar lift without
seeing a cloud near me. At first, I thought I had found wave, but a Cu
built some minutes later directly below me.
I think, an important thing for trying this kind of gliding is strong wind
at the level of cloud base and strong thermals with a small diameter. The
climbing thermal then pushes a bumb into the airflow of the wind which can
be used like a ridge or wave.

I'm not a famous glider pilot but I hope to have helped.

Greetings from southern Germany, Erik.

> TIA
> George (ex-kestrel254)

[Jack]

wrote:

> Does anyone still do this? It is illegal in the USA....

Do not make that assumption. It can be done legally in the USA.
Certain requirements must be met.

This has been dealt with extensively on this News Group twice in the
last year -- check the archives.


Jack

[Andreas Alin]

schrieb:
> Also has anyone been able to climb up the sunny side of a cumulus
> cloud? Read somewhere that one famous glider pilot did this and he
> said it was the flight of his life.

Not only famous glider pilots. I heard some reports from some pilots in
my club.

In this document are some Information about this.
http://www.pa.op.dlr.de/ostiv/Projects/kap4.pdf
It is in written in German, but the pictures should also help you a
little. OK, you cannot see on the pictures: Cloud street waves can also
occur if sky is blue.

Andreas

[[email protected]]

On 17 Mar, 18:43, Erik Braun > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Does anyone still do this? It is illegal in the USA but does anyone do
> > it anywhere else? Be glad to have any info about articles/accounts of
> > people who have done this.
>
> In Germany, too, AFAIK.
>
> > Also has anyone been able to climb up the sunny side of a cumulus
> > cloud? Read somewhere that one famous glider pilot did this and he
> > said it was the flight of his life.
>
> I did this twice on different occasions. It isn't always the sunny side you
> can climb, but the upwind one.
> The first time was several years ago over a power plant with a special
> cooling tower that provides great thermals. While circling around a kind of
> cloud hose, another Cu showed up about 300 ft below me. Because of strong
> wind that day, I flew to the upwind side of it and was able to climb a few
> hundred feet above cloud level in front of the quickly building cloud.
> It was very similar to ridge soaring but without fear of catching a tree or
> rock.
> Another time I found very different cloud base altitudes at the border of
> two different masses of air. Flying from the higher cloud base in the
> direction of the lower one against the wind, I found laminar lift without
> seeing a cloud near me. At first, I thought I had found wave, but a Cu
> built some minutes later directly below me.
> I think, an important thing for trying this kind of gliding is strong wind
> at the level of cloud base and strong thermals with a small diameter. The
> climbing thermal then pushes a bumb into the airflow of the wind which can
> be used like a ridge or wave.
>
> I'm not a famous glider pilot but I hope to have helped.
>
> Greetings from southern Germany, Erik.
>
>
>
> > TIA
> > George (ex-kestrel254)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Erik
thanks for this. the occasion you mentioned where there were two
dofferent airmasses sounds like a sea-breeze front which I have only
flown once in my life. On gets theses at Lasham occasionally with one
airmass from the north and the sea air coming in from the south. IIRC
I flew figure-of-eights to stay up.
Thanks
George

[[email protected]]

On 17 Mar, 19:22, Jack > wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > Does anyone still do this? It is illegal in the USA....
>
> Do not make that assumption. It can be done legally in the USA.
> Certain requirements must be met.
>
> This has been dealt with extensively on this News Group twice in the
> last year -- check the archives.
>
> Jack

Thanks jack. Will take a look
George

[[email protected]]

On Mar 17, 3:53 pm, wrote:
> On 17 Mar, 19:22, Jack > wrote:
>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Does anyone still do this? It is illegal in the USA....
>
> > Do not make that assumption. It can be done legally in the USA.
> > Certain requirements must be met.
>
> > This has been dealt with extensively on this News Group twice in the
> > last year -- check the archives.
>
> > Jack
>
> Thanks jack. Will take a look
> George

yes, cloud flying is perfectly legal in the US. You simply have to
equip the glider in accordance with the POH (certified) or Operating
Limitation (Experimental). If the POH or Op. Lims dont allow it then
you cannot do it in that glider. Then you have to meet the currency
requirements of Part 61 and have an instrument rating in Single or
Multiengine Airplanes, or an ATP.

Shawn Knickerbocker flies clouds in Florida in his Nimbus, he
presented at the convention in Memphis and had his glider on display,
it was quite amazing. The climb rates are phenomenal, you really dont
have to spend that much time in the cloud. with 3-5k fpm climbs you
can cruise!

[Martin Gregorie]

Erik Braun wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> Also has anyone been able to climb up the sunny side of a cumulus
>> cloud? Read somewhere that one famous glider pilot did this and he
>> said it was the flight of his life.
>
> I did this twice on different occasions. It isn't always the sunny side you
> can climb, but the upwind one.
>
I also did this for the first time last year near Gransden Lodge at the
end of September. There was a fairly strong breeze at flying height and
good streeting. I noticed a short (1 km) spur running off one street at
right angles so had a play. I was able to get 1-200 feet up the windward
side of the spur for about 4 beats along it. I think it was transient
sheer wave because when I looked at the trace afterwards the spur was
being steadily blown downwind the whole time.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Robert van de Sandt]

Erik Braun schrieb:
> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone still do this? It is illegal in the USA but does anyone do
>> it anywhere else? Be glad to have any info about articles/accounts of
>> people who have done this.
>
> In Germany, too, AFAIK.
>
It can be done legally in Germany. You have to have a cloud flying
rating and submit a flight plan and get a DFS clearance. Your gilder has
to be equippt with some more instruments.
I know some people who have done it, even with airspace C crossings in
higher altitude after leaving the CU.

Robert

[Mike Schumann]

I would assume that you need to be flying IFR with all the attendant issues
(equipment, talking to ATC, etc...)

Mike

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Mar 17, 3:53 pm, wrote:
>> On 17 Mar, 19:22, Jack > wrote:
>>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > > Does anyone still do this? It is illegal in the USA....
>>
>> > Do not make that assumption. It can be done legally in the USA.
>> > Certain requirements must be met.
>>
>> > This has been dealt with extensively on this News Group twice in the
>> > last year -- check the archives.
>>
>> > Jack
>>
>> Thanks jack. Will take a look
>> George
>
> yes, cloud flying is perfectly legal in the US. You simply have to
> equip the glider in accordance with the POH (certified) or Operating
> Limitation (Experimental). If the POH or Op. Lims dont allow it then
> you cannot do it in that glider. Then you have to meet the currency
> requirements of Part 61 and have an instrument rating in Single or
> Multiengine Airplanes, or an ATP.
>
> Shawn Knickerbocker flies clouds in Florida in his Nimbus, he
> presented at the convention in Memphis and had his glider on display,
> it was quite amazing. The climb rates are phenomenal, you really dont
> have to spend that much time in the cloud. with 3-5k fpm climbs you
> can cruise!
>



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[[email protected]]

> I would assume that you need to be flying IFR with all the attendant issues
> (equipment, talking to ATC, etc...)

of course, and they really aren't "issues" Pretty standard flying for
many pilots.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 20, 8:39 pm, wrote:
> > I would assume that you need to be flying IFR with all the attendant issues
> > (equipment, talking to ATC, etc...)
>
> of course, and they really aren't "issues" Pretty standard flying for
> many pilots.

No need to talk to anybody and don't need a transponder if you are in
class G airspace. Of course that limits your options a bit but there
is some suitable class G in Arizona. Some disagree so see previous
discussions.

Andy

[Bill Daniels]

"Andy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Mar 20, 8:39 pm, wrote:
>> > I would assume that you need to be flying IFR with all the attendant
>> > issues
>> > (equipment, talking to ATC, etc...)
>>
>> of course, and they really aren't "issues" Pretty standard flying for
>> many pilots.
>
> No need to talk to anybody and don't need a transponder if you are in
> class G airspace. Of course that limits your options a bit but there
> is some suitable class G in Arizona. Some disagree so see previous
> discussions.
>
> Andy
>

Most class G airspace of usable dimensions exists in the western US
mountains. It has a ceiling of 14,500 feet except where designated
otherwise on sectionals. This is lower than most pilots are comfortable
with in the mountains. Most often there are no clouds in this airspace if
thermic conditions exist since cu bases tend to be much higher.

If convective clouds do exist in these areas, they are likely to be ice
generators. I have seen rime ice form at the rate of 1/2"/min in cumulus
over mountains.

Cloud flying in Class G, while not unimaginable, is not likely to be very
practical. More plausable is soaring under IFR rules in Visual
Meteorlogical Conditions for XC wave flights in Class A as has been done
over the Sierras. A fully equipped glider, an instrument rating, and a
clearance is your ticket out of the wave window.

Cumulus cloud flying works best below the freezing level - Florida seems
ideal for this.

Bill Daniels

[Martin Gregorie]

wrote:
>> I would assume that you need to be flying IFR with all the attendant issues
>> (equipment, talking to ATC, etc...)
>
> of course, and they really aren't "issues" Pretty standard flying for
> many pilots.
>
Still a pretty big issue, though, for those of us who only fly gliders
and don't want to fly anything else.

Getting IFR trained without having to learn more than I want about
running an engine seems relatively hard.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

On Mar 21, 8:29 am, "Andy" > wrote:
> On Mar 20, 8:39 pm, wrote:
>
> > > I would assume that you need to be flying IFR with all the attendant issues
> > > (equipment, talking to ATC, etc...)
>
> > of course, and they really aren't "issues" Pretty standard flying for
> > many pilots.
>
> No need to talk to anybody and don't need a transponder if you are in
> class G airspace. Of course that limits your options a bit but there
> is some suitable class G in Arizona. Some disagree so see previous
> discussions.
>
> Andy

Read the regs, dont need a transponder in Class E either, even if
IFR. Only required for gliders in Class B and C or overflying Class
C.

icing would be an issue in the midwest if flying in towering cu's.
but i can see a lot of advantage flying clouds in the midwest in my
low performance glider. Especially on low days where XC below
cloudbase might not be the best idea, but the tops of the cu's are up
around 8 or 10,000. A lot of days i could double my height above
ground if i could thermal into the clouds.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 21, 11:16 am, Martin Gregorie > wrote:
> wrote:
> >> I would assume that you need to be flying IFR with all the attendant issues
> >> (equipment, talking to ATC, etc...)
>
> > of course, and they really aren't "issues" Pretty standard flying for
> > many pilots.
>
> Still a pretty big issue, though, for those of us who only fly gliders
> and don't want to fly anything else.
>
> Getting IFR trained without having to learn more than I want about
> running an engine seems relatively hard.
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

i guess it just depends on how bad you want to cloud fly, apparently
not bad enough.

[Eric Greenwell]

wrote:

>>
>> Getting IFR trained without having to learn more than I want about
>> running an engine seems relatively hard.
>>
>> --
>> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>> gregorie. | Essex, UK
>> org |
>
> i guess it just depends on how bad you want to cloud fly, apparently
> not bad enough.

Exactly. What is it - 40 hours of flight time to get the IFR ticket?
With aircraft and instructor costs, that could easily be $4000. Then the
time and cost to stay current, and I don't mean just to meet currency
requirements, but enough time to be competent. If all you are using the
IFR for is flying in clouds and not as part of your flying in airplanes
for work or travel, this seems a marginal value to me. And, of course,
there's the expense of fitting the required equipment to the glider,
which, with a transponder and horizon, could easily be another $4000.

The cost and time would be less daunting if the IFR ticket was also used
to fly in wave above 18,000. I've given some thought to that, and I
already have a transponder, but it's still quite a commitment to get the
IFR rating and practice enough to remain competent and safe.

The pilots I know that do IFR in gliders already had the IFR rating for
airplanes before they decided to use it in gliders. Has anyone gotten
the rating just to use in gliders?

Too bad we can't do it as simply as the Brits and some of the Europeans.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Mike the Strike]

>
> Too bad we can't do it as simply as the Brits and some of the Europeans.
>

Perhaps some of us already do but don't talk about it in public?

Mike

> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
> * "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 21, 7:09 am, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> "Andy" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
> > On Mar 20, 8:39 pm, wrote:
> >> > I would assume that you need to be flying IFR with all the attendant
> >> > issues
> >> > (equipment, talking to ATC, etc...)
>
> >> of course, and they really aren't "issues" Pretty standard flying for
> >> many pilots.
>
> > No need to talk to anybody and don't need a transponder if you are in
> > class G airspace. Of course that limits your options a bit but there
> > is some suitable class G in Arizona. Some disagree so see previous
> > discussions.
>
> > Andy
>
> Most class G airspace of usable dimensions exists in the western US
> mountains. It has a ceiling of 14,500 feet except where designated
> otherwise on sectionals. This is lower than most pilots are comfortable
> with in the mountains. Most often there are no clouds in this airspace if
> thermic conditions exist since cu bases tend to be much higher.
>
> If convective clouds do exist in these areas, they are likely to be ice
> generators. I have seen rime ice form at the rate of 1/2"/min in cumulus
> over mountains.
>
> Cloud flying in Class G, while not unimaginable, is not likely to be very
> practical. More plausable is soaring under IFR rules in Visual
> Meteorlogical Conditions for XC wave flights in Class A as has been done
> over the Sierras. A fully equipped glider, an instrument rating, and a
> clearance is your ticket out of the wave window.
>
> Cumulus cloud flying works best below the freezing level - Florida seems
> ideal for this.
>
> Bill Daniels

Find a Phoenix sectional and look near Bagdad. Plenty of separation
between terrain and 14k for cloud climbs to be made. As I said in
previous threads the only reason I didn't do it was I didn't want to
build a gyr panel and have to mess with it for contest flying. Now my
28 is day vfr limited on its US experimetal ticket so I can't anyway.

Andy

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 21, 9:57 am, wrote:
> Read the regs

Did I say something that conflicted with that? My condition was no IFR
flight plan AND no transponder.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 22, 6:23 pm, "Andy" > wrote:
> On Mar 21, 9:57 am, wrote:
>
> > Read the regs
>
> Did I say something that conflicted with that? My condition was no IFR
> flight plan AND no transponder.

no, what you said was correct, but it implied that you do need a
transponder in other controlled airspace (Class E) which is not true,
although probably a good idea.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Mar 22, 10:49 pm, wrote:
> On Mar 22, 6:23 pm, "Andy" > wrote:
>
> no, what you said was correct, but it implied that you do need a
> transponder in other controlled airspace (Class E) which is not true,
> although probably a good idea.

So If I said "you don't need to wear a tie when you are at the
beach". You'd think I implied that you need to wear a tie everywhere
except at the beach" Very strange, but I still don't speak American.
In my native language there is a difference between implication and
inference.


Andy

[Mike Schumann]

I am confused. If you are flying VFR, whether you are in Class G, E, or
whatever, you need to stay clear of clouds as specified in FAR 91.155. If
you are going to be in a cloud, you need to be flying IFR. To do this, you
need to be on a flight plan, properly rated, and have an IFR equiped glider.
Am I missing something????

Mike Schumann

"Andy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Mar 20, 8:39 pm, wrote:
>> > I would assume that you need to be flying IFR with all the attendant
>> > issues
>> > (equipment, talking to ATC, etc...)
>>
>> of course, and they really aren't "issues" Pretty standard flying for
>> many pilots.
>
> No need to talk to anybody and don't need a transponder if you are in
> class G airspace. Of course that limits your options a bit but there
> is some suitable class G in Arizona. Some disagree so see previous
> discussions.
>
> Andy
>



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[[email protected]]

On Mar 23, 8:27 pm, "Mike Schumann" <mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com> wrote:
> I am confused. If you are flying VFR, whether you are in Class G, E, or
> whatever, you need to stay clear of clouds as specified in FAR 91.155. If
> you are going to be in a cloud, you need to be flying IFR. To do this, you
> need to be on a flight plan, properly rated, and have an IFR equiped glider.


yea you got it, except for a few rare possibilities that you could
cloud fly in Class G, where a flight plan/clearance is not required.
The equipment required does not include transponders. And apparently
while Andy isnt quite grasping American, I need to work on my
English. Until then I'll be the guy at the beach wearing a tie...