Scouts have bumpy landing

[Fred Goodwin, CMA]

Scouts have bumpy landing

<http://www.mysanantonio.com/salife/family/stories/
MYSA031807.10B.Flying_scouts.3614c98.html>
http://tinyurl.com/2ron93

Web Posted: 03/18/2007 01:39 AM CDT

Chuck McCollough
Express-News

Three Boy Scouts and their pilot walked away from a hard landing at
Hondo Municipal Airport on Saturday after part of the plane's landing
gear failed to lock in place, witnesses said.
"I'm glad to be down safe. I was really scared after I saw part of the
wheel fall off," said 12-year-old Eric Riegel.

He and fellow scouts Nathaniel Mayberry, 13, and Kirby Vandervort, 10,
all of Houston, were flying with pilot Thomas Skiles to earn their
aviation merit badges.

Dozens of other Scouts were present when the airplane started its
landing approach and it became apparent something was wrong, said
Nathaniel Mayberry's father, Luther Mayberry.

"My son and the other boys were on one of the last round of flights,
and we were on the tarmac watching the plane coming in when I sensed
something was not well, something was out of place," the father said.
"The wheels did not come down all the way and the pilot circled at
least once.

"As he came in for the belly landing, the emergency vehicles raced
toward the airplane, and I did, too."

Luther Mayberry, as he put it, "ran faster than I ever have before" as
his son, the other Scouts and the pilot quickly escaped the plane.

There was no fire.

Seconds before the plane came down, Riegel said, the pilot told his
passengers he would land on the grass next to the runway.

"Then there was a hard thump when we hit, and we got out fast. It was
about five minutes between the time we knew the landing gear wasn't
working and when we got down. It was really scary," the boy said.

Airport manager Timothy Fousee said a lever that locks the landing
gear in place malfunctioned. He said the Federal Aviation
Administration is reviewing the incident.

[Mxsmanic]

Fred Goodwin, CMA writes:

> Airport manager Timothy Fousee said a lever that locks the landing
> gear in place malfunctioned.

Or it was improperly maintained.

--
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[Tim]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Fred Goodwin, CMA writes:
>
>
>>Airport manager Timothy Fousee said a lever that locks the landing
>>gear in place malfunctioned.
>
>
> Or it was improperly maintained.
>

So you're an A&P or NTSB investigator now? Do they have game
simulations for maintaining aircraft? What do you know about GA plane
maintenance?

Did your gear fail in your baron ever? Oh, that's right, you can't try
that scenario in your game.

[TheSmokingGnu]

MXMORON wrote:
>>> Airport manager Timothy Fousee said a lever that locks the landing
>>> gear in place malfunctioned.
>> Or it was improperly maintained.
>
> Or it was sabotaged by aliens.
>

Or the aliens used cybernetic beavers to sabotage the o-rings, thereby
setting off a chain reaction which resulted in a butterfly flapping its
wings in the Amazon.

TheSmokingGnu

[Mxsmanic]

Tim writes:

> So you're an A&P or NTSB investigator now?

Just as much as you are.

> Did your gear fail in your baron ever?

Yes, occasionally.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 19, 8:32 am, "Fred Goodwin, CMA" > wrote:
> Scouts have bumpy landing
>
> <http://www.mysanantonio.com/salife/family/stories/
> MYSA031807.10B.Flying_scouts.3614c98.html>http://tinyurl.com/2ron93
>
> Web Posted: 03/18/2007 01:39 AM CDT
>
> Chuck McCollough
> Express-News
>
> Three Boy Scouts and their pilot walked away from a hard landing at
> Hondo Municipal Airport on Saturday after part of the plane's landing
> gear failed to lock in place, witnesses said.
> "I'm glad to be down safe. I was really scared after I saw part of the
> wheel fall off," said 12-year-old Eric Riegel.
>
> He and fellow scouts Nathaniel Mayberry, 13, and Kirby Vandervort, 10,
> all of Houston, were flying with pilot Thomas Skiles to earn their
> aviation merit badges.
>
> Dozens of other Scouts were present when the airplane started its
> landing approach and it became apparent something was wrong, said
> Nathaniel Mayberry's father, Luther Mayberry.
>
> "My son and the other boys were on one of the last round of flights,
> and we were on the tarmac watching the plane coming in when I sensed
> something was not well, something was out of place," the father said.
> "The wheels did not come down all the way and the pilot circled at
> least once.
>
> "As he came in for the belly landing, the emergency vehicles raced
> toward the airplane, and I did, too."
>
> Luther Mayberry, as he put it, "ran faster than I ever have before" as
> his son, the other Scouts and the pilot quickly escaped the plane.
>
> There was no fire.
>
> Seconds before the plane came down, Riegel said, the pilot told his
> passengers he would land on the grass next to the runway.
>
> "Then there was a hard thump when we hit, and we got out fast. It was
> about five minutes between the time we knew the landing gear wasn't
> working and when we got down. It was really scary," the boy said.
>
> Airport manager Timothy Fousee said a lever that locks the landing
> gear in place malfunctioned. He said the Federal Aviation
> Administration is reviewing the incident.

Flying Boy Scouts is an awesome thing to do, very rewarding. There is
more paperwork involved, but its not too bad. Many pilots back away
when they see the BSA insurance requirement to issue you the flight
permit but EAA will cover the insurance difference (with some
additional paperwork). Its really not that bad, I would encourage
everyone to fly scouts. The paperwork you will carry will usually
be...
1) Trip permit (usually handled by an ASM, you don't have to worry
about this)
2) Flight permit (you fill out a small form, indicate the amount of
time you have, etc, and submit it to be signed by your local Council,
returned with stamp)
3) BSA parent release (have parents sign the release, usually the
Troop will ensure this will be done the week before)
4) EAA release (can be filled out anytime before the flight).

There are some restrictions (VFR, day, no landings other than
departure point, limited distance (if you are less than 500 hrs)). You
are waved from the "2 deep leadership" rule when in flight which would
normally require two adults at all times. I believe the BSA insurance
(with EAA) gives you an effective $10Million smooth policy for the
flight. You cover all costs though.
I would also encourage pilots to register with local BSA as an
"Aviation Merit Badge Counciler". This will allow you to sign the
boy's "blue card" for each item required of the merit badge. The Troop
will provide you the manual for the Merit Badge, its all very straight
forward for pilots. It usually only costs you $10/yr to be registered
but its often waved. The $10/yr also provides you with general (non
flight) liability insurance of about $10million (in case a boy falls
down in your house/hanger, etc).

-Robert, CFII, ASM

[Fred Goodwin, CMA]

On Mar 19, 12:22 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> I would also encourage pilots to register with local BSA as an
> "Aviation Merit Badge Counciler". This will allow you to sign the
> boy's "blue card" for each item required of the merit badge. The
> Troop will provide you the manual for the Merit Badge, its all very
> straight forward for pilots. It usually only costs you $10/yr to be
> registered but its often waved. The $10/yr also provides you with
> general (non flight) liability insurance of about $10million (in
> case a boy falls down in your house/hanger, etc).

Thanx for that reminder.

Actually, to be a merit badge counselor, there is no fee required. If
you register for any other volunteer position (e.g., Scoutmaster or
unit commissioner), it does indeed cost $10, then you can add MBC or
additional volunteer positions for free.

But if you register *only* as a MBC, there is no charge.

[[email protected]]

>
> Seconds before the plane came down, Riegel said, the pilot told his
> passengers he would land on the grass next to the runway.
>


Wonder why the pilot chose to land on the grass instead of the hard,
smooth runway. Seems that a gear up landing on a runway pretty much
assures a good outcome to everyone - while landing on the grass could
result in the plane digging into the soft ground, and possibly
flipping, etc....

Glad this one turned out ok.

-CK

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 19, 12:56 pm, wrote:
> > Seconds before the plane came down, Riegel said, the pilot told his
> > passengers he would land on the grass next to the runway.
>
> Wonder why the pilot chose to land on the grass instead of the hard,
> smooth runway. Seems that a gear up landing on a runway pretty much
> assures a good outcome to everyone - while landing on the grass could
> result in the plane digging into the soft ground, and possibly
> flipping, etc....
>
> Glad this one turned out ok.
>
> -CK

Probably worried about fire. The sparks trailing a runway landing can
be pretty amazing.

[Brad[_1_]]

On Mar 19, 3:56 pm, wrote:

> Wonder why the pilot chose to land on the grass instead of the hard,
> smooth runway?

Probably trying to avoid all that foam in the middle of the runway.

[M. Fricker]

Mxsmanic > wrote:

> > Airport manager Timothy Fousee said a lever that locks the landing
> > gear in place malfunctioned.
>
> Or it was improperly maintained.

No, the airport manager didn't say that.

However, many things that are not properly maintained do malfunction, so
it might be "And it was not maintained", but the airport manager didn't
say that either.

In any case it really doesn't matter to the people reading this does it.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Fred Goodwin, CMA" > wrote
>
> Thanx for that reminder.
>
> Actually, to be a merit badge counselor, there is no fee required. If
> you register for any other volunteer position (e.g., Scoutmaster or
> unit commissioner), it does indeed cost $10, then you can add MBC or
> additional volunteer positions for free.
>
> But if you register *only* as a MBC, there is no charge.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^
As long as we are on the subject of becoming active in Boy Scouts, I should
mention the Explorer program, specifically, the Aviation Explorer program.
The Explorers are groups involved in about every career path that could be
taken in life. Examples are paramedic, police, nursing, engineering, and
the list goes on.

Explorers are a "division" of Boy Scouts, and more specifically, "Learning
for Life." Not to lose sight of the ball though, as the organizational
specifics are not important.

Aviation Explorers can be a pivotal way to increase our youth's interest in
aviation. In our post, we have had several youth take aviation as a career
path, when that was not the likely way they were headed.

It is not all that hard to get a new post started. The activities can be
broad, and varied, and not necessarily all aviation. We have gone to at
least two air shows per year (not counting the big one (OSH)) gone skiing,
rafting, to scuba certifying classes, directed parking and aircraft at our
area air show, helped with our local EAA fly-ins, and the list goes on.

I'll bet a good many people do not realize where all of the man (and boy
<g>) power comes from, to push and park all of the airplanes in the
homebuilt showplane area at OSH every year. It is all Explorers, and other
adult EAA advisors. They also man the ropes at the taxiways in area 51, do
crowd control and plane protection (from the few ignorant people watching
the daily airshow) People over 18 that have been to OSH two times as an
Explorer are eligible to be trained to flag aircraft on some of the active
taxiway intersections off of 18/36, serving one year as apprentice, then on
their own the next year. Shifts are 2 or three hours per day, with
opportunities to work double shifts, if desired.

The Aviation Explorers have a base on the airport grounds, down next to the
North airplane camping area, next to the Civil Air Patrol base camp. There
are usually a few more than 100 boys and girls, and 20 or 30 adult advisors.
Units come from Cleveland, Kansas, Missouri, Texas, North Carolina, and some
other far away places that I can't remember right now.

I can't emphasize how good of an experience Aviation Explorers can be for
you, and for our youth. For those people who really want to make a
difference in keeping G.A. alive, and even growing, IMHO, there is NO better
way to make it happen.

Seriously, think of getting some buddies together and start a post. It is
not hard, and very rewarding. I can point you to a person who is far more
qualified than me, to give you the specifics of how to make this all happen.

Contact me via back channels to get the contact person's name, at:


Make the two obvious BIG changes in my addy.

For other general questions, feel free to contact me, or better yet, post
them here, in newsgroup land.
--
Jim in NC

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 19, 2:40 pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
> "Fred Goodwin, CMA" > wrote
>
> > Thanx for that reminder.
>
> > Actually, to be a merit badge counselor, there is no fee required. If
> > you register for any other volunteer position (e.g., Scoutmaster or
> > unit commissioner), it does indeed cost $10, then you can add MBC or
> > additional volunteer positions for free.
>
> > But if you register *only* as a MBC, there is no charge.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^
> As long as we are on the subject of becoming active in Boy Scouts, I should
> mention the Explorer program, specifically, the Aviation Explorer program.
> The Explorers are groups involved in about every career path that could be
> taken in life. Examples are paramedic, police, nursing, engineering, and
> the list goes on.
>
> Explorers are a "division" of Boy Scouts, and more specifically, "Learning
> for Life." Not to lose sight of the ball though, as the organizational
> specifics are not important.
>
> Aviation Explorers can be a pivotal way to increase our youth's interest in
> aviation. In our post, we have had several youth take aviation as a career
> path, when that was not the likely way they were headed.
>
> It is not all that hard to get a new post started. The activities can be
> broad, and varied, and not necessarily all aviation. We have gone to at
> least two air shows per year (not counting the big one (OSH)) gone skiing,
> rafting, to scuba certifying classes, directed parking and aircraft at our
> area air show, helped with our local EAA fly-ins, and the list goes on.
>
> I'll bet a good many people do not realize where all of the man (and boy
> <g>) power comes from, to push and park all of the airplanes in the
> homebuilt showplane area at OSH every year. It is all Explorers, and other
> adult EAA advisors. They also man the ropes at the taxiways in area 51, do
> crowd control and plane protection (from the few ignorant people watching
> the daily airshow) People over 18 that have been to OSH two times as an
> Explorer are eligible to be trained to flag aircraft on some of the active
> taxiway intersections off of 18/36, serving one year as apprentice, then on
> their own the next year. Shifts are 2 or three hours per day, with
> opportunities to work double shifts, if desired.
>
> The Aviation Explorers have a base on the airport grounds, down next to the
> North airplane camping area, next to the Civil Air Patrol base camp. There
> are usually a few more than 100 boys and girls, and 20 or 30 adult advisors.
> Units come from Cleveland, Kansas, Missouri, Texas, North Carolina, and some
> other far away places that I can't remember right now.
>
> I can't emphasize how good of an experience Aviation Explorers can be for
> you, and for our youth. For those people who really want to make a
> difference in keeping G.A. alive, and even growing, IMHO, there is NO better
> way to make it happen.
>
> Seriously, think of getting some buddies together and start a post. It is
> not hard, and very rewarding. I can point you to a person who is far more
> qualified than me, to give you the specifics of how to make this all happen.
>
> Contact me via back channels to get the contact person's name, at:
>
>
> Make the two obvious BIG changes in my addy.
>
> For other general questions, feel free to contact me, or better yet, post
> them here, in newsgroup land.
> --
> Jim in NC

Its odd that BSA's site http://www.scouting.org/ doesn't mention
Explorers. I've not heard of them. Usually we try to get older boys
involved in Venture scouting to keep them interested.

-Robert

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote

> Its odd that BSA's site http://www.scouting.org/ doesn't mention
> Explorers. I've not heard of them. Usually we try to get older boys
> involved in Venture scouting to keep them interested.

This explains it far better than I could ever attempt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_for_Life

Here are a couple other unit specific sites.

http://www.lastfrontiercouncil.org/districts/learningforlife.htm

http://www.troop97.net/bsainfo.htm

Notice that I put quotations around "division" of Boy Scouts, and that is
not even right, because it is now called just "Scouting."

Like I said, the divisions are not important. Helping our youth get "turned
on" to aviation is what is important.

Google "Learning for Life" if you want to know more, or even better, inquire
about starting a unit, by contacting me and getting _my_ contact person's
information.
--
Jim in NC

[Stephen Henning]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> > As long as we are on the subject of becoming active in Boy Scouts, I should
> > mention the Explorer program, specifically, the Aviation Explorer program.
>
> Its odd that BSA's site http://www.scouting.org/ doesn't mention
> Explorers. I've not heard of them. Usually we try to get older boys
> involved in Venture scouting to keep them interested.

It is not the least bit odd. The BSA organizes career programs for
charter organizations such as government agencies or corporations that
may have difficulty with belief in God under the Learning For Life
banner, a subsidiary of the BSA. Exploring and learning for life have
no Oath or Laws as Scouting does. Exploring falls under this banner.
For more on Exploring and Learning For Life visit:

<http://www.learning-for-life.org/>

<http://www.learning-for-life.org/exploring/index.html>

<http://www.learning-for-life.org/exploring/aviation/index.html>
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://scouters.us

[Mxsmanic]

M. Fricker writes:

> No, the airport manager didn't say that.

The airport manager is no more qualified to determine the state of maintenance
of the gear than I am.

> In any case it really doesn't matter to the people reading this does it.

It might. GA aircraft suffer far more incidents and accidents than commercial
airliners. One reason is less rigorous maintenance. It's important to make
it clear that much of the additional risk of flying in GA aircraft is
avoidable, and very often GA accidents are avoidable instances of simple
carelessness (or recklessness) on the part of flight crews or aircraft owners.

--
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[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> M. Fricker writes:
>
>> No, the airport manager didn't say that.
>
> The airport manager is no more qualified to determine the state of
> maintenance of the gear than I am.
>
>> In any case it really doesn't matter to the people reading this does
>> it.
>
> It might. GA aircraft suffer far more incidents and accidents than
> commercial airliners. One reason is less rigorous maintenance.

Mostly it's because they outnumber commercial aircraft by a huge margin,
fjukkwit.



Bertie

[Mxsmanic]

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

> Mostly it's because they outnumber commercial aircraft by a huge margin,
> fjukkwit.

Unfortunately, no, it's not that.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[James Sleeman]

On Mar 20, 7:56 am, wrote:
> > Seconds before the plane came down, Riegel said, the pilot told his
> > passengers he would land on the grass next to the runway.
>
> Wonder why the pilot chose to land on the grass instead of the hard,

I thought that too. When flying a retract that won't let the gear
down I always thought the preferred landing places were in this order

Best...........: sealed runway
Less Good......: grass runway
Really Bad Day.: anything else

[Gary[_2_]]

On Mar 19, 10:18 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> The airport manager is no more qualified to determine the state of maintenance
> of the gear than I am.

Lets see...he's an aviation professional, running the local airport
where the aircraft was based. He'd know the aircraft owner, and all
the A&P's at the field. As airport manager, I guarantee he's spoken
to all of the parties involved, probably had a look at the plane and
the maintenance records, and he may very well have been a witness to
the landing.

You were 6000 miles away from the incident, you haven't left your
apartment since, your only knowledge of the landing was what you read
in the links posted above, you have no aviation background, and you've
never been in a light plane or seen a maintenance log.

He's more qualified to determine the state of maintenance.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>
>> Mostly it's because they outnumber commercial aircraft by a huge
>> margin, fjukkwit.
>
> Unfortunately, no, it's not that.
>

How would you know?


Bertie

[Mxsmanic]

Gary writes:

> Lets see...he's an aviation professional, running the local airport
> where the aircraft was based. He'd know the aircraft owner, and all
> the A&P's at the field. As airport manager, I guarantee he's spoken
> to all of the parties involved, probably had a look at the plane and
> the maintenance records, and he may very well have been a witness to
> the landing.

More importantly, you agree with him.

> You were 6000 miles away from the incident, you haven't left your
> apartment since, your only knowledge of the landing was what you read
> in the links posted above, you have no aviation background, and you've
> never been in a light plane or seen a maintenance log.

More importantly, you disagree with me.

> He's more qualified to determine the state of maintenance.

More importantly, you assume that anyone who agrees with you is more
qualified.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>
>> How would you know?
>
> I read and study.




Bwsawhaahwhawhhahwhahwhhahwhahwhahhwhahwhah! You lift a bunch of crap off
the net and then have the audacity to argue with people who actualy have a
clue..


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Gary writes:
>
>> Lets see...he's an aviation professional, running the local airport
>> where the aircraft was based. He'd know the aircraft owner, and all
>> the A&P's at the field. As airport manager, I guarantee he's spoken
>> to all of the parties involved, probably had a look at the plane and
>> the maintenance records, and he may very well have been a witness to
>> the landing.
>
> More importantly, you agree with him.
>
>> You were 6000 miles away from the incident, you haven't left your
>> apartment since, your only knowledge of the landing was what you read
>> in the links posted above, you have no aviation background, and
you've
>> never been in a light plane or seen a maintenance log.
>
> More importantly, you disagree with me.
>
>> He's more qualified to determine the state of maintenance.
>
> More importantly, you assume that anyone who agrees with you is more
> qualified.
>

Wow, a mind like a steel trap. Oh wait, I meant a drain trap. all full
of hair and slime..

Bertie

[Ron Natalie]

James Sleeman wrote:
> On Mar 20, 7:56 am, wrote:
>>> Seconds before the plane came down, Riegel said, the pilot told his
>>> passengers he would land on the grass next to the runway.
>> Wonder why the pilot chose to land on the grass instead of the hard,
>
> I thought that too. When flying a retract that won't let the gear
> down I always thought the preferred landing places were in this order
>
> Best...........: sealed runway
> Less Good......: grass runway
> Really Bad Day.: anything else
>
The hard vs. soft argument is long debated. It's probably actually
a wash. The advantages of the hard runway is that it's potentially
smoother and you'll slide to a more graceful less violent stop.
The advntage of the grass is the

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> M. Fricker writes:
>
>> No, the airport manager didn't say that.
>
> The airport manager is no more qualified to determine the state of
> maintenance of the gear than I am.

My dog is more qualified to determine the state of maintenance of the gear
than you are. She has actually seen on one close.

[Fred Goodwin, CMA]

On Mar 19, 4:40 pm, "Morgans" > wrote:

> As long as we are on the subject of becoming active in Boy Scouts,
> I should mention the Explorer program, specifically, the Aviation
> Explorer program.

Again, good call, Jim. Its possible there was an Explorer Post or two
in attendance, but if so, their presence wasn't obvious. What *was*
obvious was a group of youth in bright red t-shirts and BDU pants;
when my son and his buddy saw them, they both said, "Wow, look at
those Commando Scouts!".

Needless to say, I was a bit perturbed to think that a group of Scouts
would show up in military clothing, but it turned out the group was
actually the Civil Air Patrol and they were providing crowd control
assistance on the flight line.

I think at one time years ago, there was a division of Explorers
called "Air Scouts". I don't know what became of them, but I think
aviation posts are all that remain, at least here in the US. I
understand the UK still has Air Scouts.

> Aviation Explorers can be a pivotal way to increase our youth's
> interest in aviation. In our post, we have had several youth take
> aviation as a career path, when that was not the likely way they
> were headed.

How would you compare your aviation post to Civil Air Patrol? I was
in CAP for a very short time in middle school, but dropped out to play
football. I regret that decision, because I dropped out of Scouts,
also.

> We have gone to at least two air shows per year (not counting the
> big one (OSH)) gone skiing, rafting, to scuba certifying classes,
> directed parking and aircraft at our area air show, helped with
> our local EAA fly-ins, and the list goes on.

The event that started this thread was actually an EAA Fly-In; for the
last three years, the organizers have invited Boy Scouts to come out
and complete their aviation MB. My son and I both expressed our
gratitude that these men & women took time to give back to kids by
hosting the event, and giving the kids free rides (the two gear-up
landings, notwithstanding).

I appreciate your efforts to stimulate interest in avaiation careers
in the youth in your area via your Explorer Post. I wish more adults
with your passion could find a way to give back to youth.

> The Aviation Explorers have a base on the airport grounds, down
> next to the North airplane camping area, next to the Civil Air
> Patrol base camp.

Do you find any crossover between your Aviation Post and the local
CAP?

> I can't emphasize how good of an experience Aviation Explorers
> can be for you, and for our youth. For those people who really
> want to make a difference in keeping G.A. alive, and even growing,
> IMHO, there is NO better way to make it happen.
>
> Seriously, think of getting some buddies together and start a
> post. It is not hard, and very rewarding. I can point you to a
> person who is far more qualified than me, to give you the
> specifics of how to make this all happen.

Your local Boy Scout Council can also help, but I think new posts are
a low priority for them, because the youth in a post are not
considered "traditional" members, and so don't help the local DE meet
his annual membership quota.

> For other general questions, feel free to contact me, or better
> yet, post them here, in newsgroup land.

Jim, thanx again for all you do for the youth in your area.

[Paul kgyy]

> Seconds before the plane came down, Riegel said, the pilot told his
> passengers he would land on the grass next to the runway.
>
I thought grass gear-up landings were more hazardous than using the
runway? Things can dig into the grass, producing a much faster stop.
Although maybe it's a toss-up, as a hard surface landing might
increase the odds of a fire, depending on the type of aircraft.

[Viperdoc]

We all have to keep in mind that mxsmanic is an unfortunate individual who
suffers from a personality disorder. His underlying psychiatric problem
precludes any type of rational discourse, so it is pointless to even try.

[Morgans[_2_]]

> Again, good call, Jim. Its possible there was an Explorer Post or two
> in attendance, but if so, their presence wasn't obvious.

Are you talking as, "Its possible there was an Explorer Post or two
> in attendance," in refering to at OSH Airventure?



They are not obvious. It is not only "possible" that there were a couple
posts there, but there *WERE* a dozen or so posts there, *positively.*

Learning for Life programs, which Explorers are one of, wear no uniforms,
memorize no oaths or promises. The only way you could tell that they were
there is by asking anyone wearing an orange or green vest in the homebuilt
area if they are part of the Explorer group. There have been over 100 boys
and girls there for the last 7 years that I know of, and for more years than
that, as recorded- but not seen by me.

What *was*
> obvious was a group of youth in bright red t-shirts and BDU pants;
> when my son and his buddy saw them, they both said, "Wow, look at
> those Commando Scouts!".
>
> Needless to say, I was a bit perturbed to think that a group of Scouts
> would show up in military clothing, but it turned out the group was
> actually the Civil Air Patrol and they were providing crowd control
> assistance on the flight line.
>
> I think at one time years ago, there was a division of Explorers
> called "Air Scouts". I don't know what became of them, but I think
> aviation posts are all that remain, at least here in the US. I
> understand the UK still has Air Scouts.
>
>> Aviation Explorers can be a pivotal way to increase our youth's
>> interest in aviation. In our post, we have had several youth take
>> aviation as a career path, when that was not the likely way they
>> were headed.
>
> How would you compare your aviation post to Civil Air Patrol? I was
> in CAP for a very short time in middle school, but dropped out to play
> football. I regret that decision, because I dropped out of Scouts,
> also.
>

I know nothing of Civil Air Patrol youth, so am unqualified to speak to
that.

>> We have gone to at least two air shows per year (not counting the
>> big one (OSH)) gone skiing, rafting, to scuba certifying classes,
>> directed parking and aircraft at our area air show, helped with
>> our local EAA fly-ins, and the list goes on.
>
> The event that started this thread was actually an EAA Fly-In; for the
> last three years, the organizers have invited Boy Scouts to come out
> and complete their aviation MB. My son and I both expressed our
> gratitude that these men & women took time to give back to kids by
> hosting the event, and giving the kids free rides (the two gear-up
> landings, notwithstanding).

Yes, it is a great thing, to fly the boys, which we try to get done at least
once a year. It is done with the EAA program (which I can't remember the
name, right now. Young Eagles; is that it?)
>
> I appreciate your efforts to stimulate interest in avaiation careers
> in the youth in your area via your Explorer Post. I wish more adults
> with your passion could find a way to give back to youth.

Thanks. I am no longer active, but was for about 7 or more years.
>
>> The Aviation Explorers have a base on the airport grounds, down
>> next to the North airplane camping area, next to the Civil Air
>> Patrol base camp.
>
> Do you find any crossover between your Aviation Post and the local
> CAP?

None that I am aware of.

>> I can't emphasize how good of an experience Aviation Explorers
>> can be for you, and for our youth. For those people who really
>> want to make a difference in keeping G.A. alive, and even growing,
>> IMHO, there is NO better way to make it happen.
>>
>> Seriously, think of getting some buddies together and start a
>> post. It is not hard, and very rewarding. I can point you to a
>> person who is far more qualified than me, to give you the
>> specifics of how to make this all happen.
>
> Your local Boy Scout Council can also help, but I think new posts are
> a low priority for them, because the youth in a post are not
> considered "traditional" members, and so don't help the local DE meet
> his annual membership quota.

Correct. The connection to Boy Scouts is very distant, and not a factor in
recruiting members.

Read some of the links that I and another provided back a few posts, if you
want to understand the organizational connections better.
--
Jim in NC

[Montblack]

("Paul kgyy" wrote)
> I thought grass gear-up landings were more hazardous than using the
> runway? Things can dig into the grass, producing a much faster stop.
> Although maybe it's a toss-up, as a hard surface landing might increase
> the odds of a fire, depending on the type of aircraft.


I clipped the other two newsgroups, speaking of hazardous - especially
alt.disasters.aviation. Yikes!


Montblack

[J. F. Cornwall]

Tim wrote:

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>
>> Fred Goodwin, CMA writes:
>>
>>
>>> Airport manager Timothy Fousee said a lever that locks the landing
>>> gear in place malfunctioned.
>>
>>
>>
>> Or it was improperly maintained.
>>
>
> So you're an A&P or NTSB investigator now? Do they have game
> simulations for maintaining aircraft? What do you know about GA plane
> maintenance?
>
> Did your gear fail in your baron ever? Oh, that's right, you can't try
> that scenario in your game.

Technically, M's comment is quite correct. It could have been a
malfunction OR it could have been improperly maintained. OR both. OR
neither. M did not say it *WAS* improperly maintained... Nor am I,
since I have no idea. Just picking at the bare bones Boolean logic of
the statements.

Jim

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

"J. F. Cornwall" > wrote in news:E9ULh.24700$mJ1.4486
@newsfe22.lga:

> Tim wrote:
>
>> Mxsmanic wrote:
>>
>>> Fred Goodwin, CMA writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Airport manager Timothy Fousee said a lever that locks the landing
>>>> gear in place malfunctioned.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Or it was improperly maintained.
>>>
>>
>> So you're an A&P or NTSB investigator now? Do they have game
>> simulations for maintaining aircraft? What do you know about GA
plane
>> maintenance?
>>
>> Did your gear fail in your baron ever? Oh, that's right, you can't
try
>> that scenario in your game.
>
> Technically, M's comment is quite correct.

No, it isn't..

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

"Viperdoc" > wrote in
:

> We all have to keep in mind that mxsmanic is an unfortunate individual
> who suffers from a personality disorder. His underlying psychiatric
> problem precludes any type of rational discourse, so it is pointless
> to even try.

Oh I disagree..


Bertie

[Darkwing]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> M. Fricker writes:
>
>> No, the airport manager didn't say that.
>
> The airport manager is no more qualified to determine the state of
> maintenance
> of the gear than I am.
>

He might be an A&P by trade, either way he actually does see real airplanes
on a day to day basis, dumbass.


>> In any case it really doesn't matter to the people reading this does it.
>
> It might. GA aircraft suffer far more incidents and accidents than
> commercial
> airliners. One reason is less rigorous maintenance. It's important to
> make
> it clear that much of the additional risk of flying in GA aircraft is
> avoidable, and very often GA accidents are avoidable instances of simple
> carelessness (or recklessness) on the part of flight crews or aircraft
> owners.


Says the man who just has to press reset.

---------------------------------------------------
DW

[Darkwing]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Gary writes:
>
>> Lets see...he's an aviation professional, running the local airport
>> where the aircraft was based. He'd know the aircraft owner, and all
>> the A&P's at the field. As airport manager, I guarantee he's spoken
>> to all of the parties involved, probably had a look at the plane and
>> the maintenance records, and he may very well have been a witness to
>> the landing.
>
> More importantly, you agree with him.

I wish you would go to a medical forum and argue with doctors about symptoms
and prognosis, it would be a damn hoot.

>
>> You were 6000 miles away from the incident, you haven't left your
>> apartment since, your only knowledge of the landing was what you read
>> in the links posted above, you have no aviation background, and you've
>> never been in a light plane or seen a maintenance log.
>
> More importantly, you disagree with me.
>
>> He's more qualified to determine the state of maintenance.
>
> More importantly, you assume that anyone who agrees with you is more
> qualified.


I'm nominating you for the Usenet Idiot Savant award.

---------------------------------------------
DW

[Mxsmanic]

"Darkwing" <theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com> writes:

> I wish you would go to a medical forum and argue with doctors about symptoms
> and prognosis, it would be a damn hoot.

I usually agree with people who know what they are talking about, so there
isn't much to argue about with doctors. With non-doctors, on the other hand,
there's often a lot to discuss. Medicine is filled with urban legends.

Interestingly, one way to recognize true experts (in medicine or anything
else) is that they will occasionally say "I don't know," if they don't know.
Non-experts trying to pass themselves off as experts are very afraid to ever
say this, lest their cover be blown.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

"Darkwing" <theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com> writes:

> He might be an A&P by trade, either way he actually does see real airplanes
> on a day to day basis, dumbass.

He might just be an office worker, who never sees real airplanes at all except
occasionally outside the window or on TV.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)]

> Non-experts trying to pass themselves off as experts are very afraid to ever
> say this, lest their cover be blown.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Boy that statement must have been very difficult for you to type

Ibby

[Mxsmanic]

Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris) writes:

> Boy that statement must have been very difficult for you to type

Not at all. I'm a good typist, and it didn't involve any odd key
combinations.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)]

On Mar 21, 4:55 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris) writes:
>
> > Boy that statement must have been very difficult for you to type
>
> Not at all. I'm a good typist, and it didn't involve any odd key
> combinations.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Of course, silly me

[Darkwing]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris) writes:
>
>> Boy that statement must have been very difficult for you to type
>
> Not at all. I'm a good typist, and it didn't involve any odd key
> combinations.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.


Said like a true fraud.

The only difference between God and MX, is God knows he isn't MX...

------------------------------------
DW

[Darkwing]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> "Darkwing" <theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> He might be an A&P by trade, either way he actually does see real
>> airplanes
>> on a day to day basis, dumbass.
>
> He might just be an office worker, who never sees real airplanes at all
> except
> occasionally outside the window or on TV.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Have you EVER been wrong? Just once? (that you would admit to, with your
borderline personality disorder)

--------------------------------------------------
DW

[Mxsmanic]

"Darkwing" <theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com> writes:

> Have you EVER been wrong? Just once?

Yes. And I admit to it as well, although the same defects of memory that
cause people to misquote me and recall things I never said also seem to
prevent them from remembering the occasions when I've acknowledged being
wrong.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> "Darkwing" <theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> He might be an A&P by trade, either way he actually does see real
>> airplanes on a day to day basis, dumbass.
>
> He might just be an office worker, who never sees real airplanes at
> all except occasionally outside the window or on TV.
>

Like you!


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> "Darkwing" <theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Have you EVER been wrong? Just once?
>
> Yes. And I admit to it as well,


No, you don't


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

"Darkwing" <theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com> wrote in
:

>
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Gary writes:
>>
>>> Lets see...he's an aviation professional, running the local airport
>>> where the aircraft was based. He'd know the aircraft owner, and
>>> all the A&P's at the field. As airport manager, I guarantee he's
>>> spoken to all of the parties involved, probably had a look at the
>>> plane and the maintenance records, and he may very well have been a
>>> witness to the landing.
>>
>> More importantly, you agree with him.
>
> I wish you would go to a medical forum and argue with doctors about
> symptoms and prognosis, it would be a damn hoot.
>
>>
>>> You were 6000 miles away from the incident, you haven't left your
>>> apartment since, your only knowledge of the landing was what you
>>> read in the links posted above, you have no aviation background, and
>>> you've never been in a light plane or seen a maintenance log.
>>
>> More importantly, you disagree with me.
>>
>>> He's more qualified to determine the state of maintenance.
>>
>> More importantly, you assume that anyone who agrees with you is more
>> qualified.
>
>
> I'm nominating you for the Usenet Idiot Savant award.
>

I don't think he qualifies, actually. Aside from being an asshole, I
don't see any one particular talent he has that would distinguish him as
one.


Now, usenet kook of the month he has a shot at... Do I have a second?


Bertie

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> "Darkwing" <theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> I wish you would go to a medical forum and argue with doctors about
>> symptoms and prognosis, it would be a damn hoot.
>
> I usually agree with people who know what they are talking about, so
> there isn't much to argue about with doctors. With non-doctors, on
> the other hand, there's often a lot to discuss. Medicine is filled
> with urban legends.
>
> Interestingly, one way to recognize true experts (in medicine or
> anything else) is that they will occasionally say "I don't know," if
> they don't know. Non-experts trying to pass themselves off as experts
> are very afraid to ever say this, lest their cover be blown.

Bwawhahwhahwhahwhhahwhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahw!



quod erat demonstrandum


Bertei

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote >
> Like you!

Although I am sure you have good intentions, regarding exposing Mx, if you
were to look at all of the posts from, and about his presence, from him and
others, I think you will find what you are trying to do has been tried.

Many of us are sure the only way to make him lose interest and leave, is to
totally shun him. Unfortunately, many here do not agree with this tactic,
or the need for using it, and keep posting away.

I will not presume to tell you what to do, but I will say that I feel your
continued contributions will do no good. You might want to consider going
the way of totally ignoring his posts.
--
Jim in NC

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

"Morgans" > wrote in
:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote >
>> Like you!
>
> Although I am sure you have good intentions, regarding exposing Mx, if
> you were to look at all of the posts from, and about his presence,
> from him and others, I think you will find what you are trying to do
> has been tried.

Not by me it hasn't...

I'm what ya might call "a little bit different"

>
> Many of us are sure the only way to make him lose interest and leave,
> is to totally shun him. Unfortunately, many here do not agree with
> this tactic, or the need for using it, and keep posting away.
>
> I will not presume to tell you what to do, but I will say that I feel
> your continued contributions will do no good. You might want to
> consider going the way of totally ignoring his posts.

Mmm, no.. That's not gonna happen.


Bertie

[mike regish]

Shouldn't have gone for the grass if there was pavement available.

mike

"Fred Goodwin, CMA" > wrote in message
s.com...
>
> Seconds before the plane came down, Riegel said, the pilot told his
> passengers he would land on the grass next to the runway.

[mike regish]

Or it was improperly maintained.

mike
ASEL

"Tim" > wrote in message
...
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> Fred Goodwin, CMA writes:
>>
>>
>>>Airport manager Timothy Fousee said a lever that locks the landing
>>>gear in place malfunctioned.
>>
>>
>> Or it was improperly maintained.
>>
>
> So you're an A&P or NTSB investigator now? Do they have game simulations
> for maintaining aircraft? What do you know about GA plane maintenance?
>
> Did your gear fail in your baron ever? Oh, that's right, you can't try
> that scenario in your game.

[mike regish]

"James Sleeman" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> I thought that too. When flying a retract that won't let the gear
> down I always thought the preferred landing places were in this order
>
> Best...........: sealed runway
> Less Good......: grass runway
> Really Bad Day.: anything else

You forgot
>Softest, cheapest thing

mike

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

"mike regish" > wrote in
:

> Shouldn't have gone for the grass if there was pavement available.
>

Quite so. I worked for a place a long time ago that had a 99 land wheels
up., He opted for the grass next to the runway and bent the airplane beyond
repair. A small depression in the grass bent the airplane's back. Very
rough for the pax as well, but there were no injuries...



Bertie

[Tim]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> "Darkwing" <theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com> writes:
>
>
>>I wish you would go to a medical forum and argue with doctors about symptoms
>>and prognosis, it would be a damn hoot.
>
>
> I usually agree with people who know what they are talking about, so there
> isn't much to argue about with doctors. With non-doctors, on the other hand,
> there's often a lot to discuss. Medicine is filled with urban legends.
>
> Interestingly, one way to recognize true experts (in medicine or anything
> else) is that they will occasionally say "I don't know," if they don't know.
> Non-experts trying to pass themselves off as experts are very afraid to ever
> say this, lest their cover be blown.
>

Is there anything you don't know?
Were you ever wrong about anything?

[Mxsmanic]

Tim writes:

> Is there anything you don't know?

Many things, but I don't generally discuss things that I don't know, unless
I'm asking questions.

> Were you ever wrong about anything?

Many times, but I'm more often right than wrong, for the reason stated above.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Tim writes:
>
>> Is there anything you don't know?
>
> Many things, but I don't generally discuss things that I don't know,
> unless I'm asking questions.
>
>> Were you ever wrong about anything?
>
> Many times, but I'm more often right than wrong, for the reason stated
> above.

haven't seen you say anything accurate yet,


Wuss


bertie

[150flivver]

The pilot landed successfully without doing a lot of damage to the
airplane or hurting anyone. Saying he should have landed on the
pavement rather than the grass is rather ridiculous considering the
fine outcome of this emergency. Kudos to the pilot.

[Peter Dohm]

> >
> > Seconds before the plane came down, Riegel said, the pilot told his
> > passengers he would land on the grass next to the runway.
>
> Shouldn't have gone for the grass if there was pavement available.
>
You may well be right, and that is my prejudice as well, since current
recommendations do seem to favor the pavement--except for seaplanes.
However, this topic has been a favorite subject hangar flying sessions since
before I was born; and will most probably continue as long as there are
aircraft with retractable wheels.

The part that botheres me is that I can recall nothing in this thread, or
any link given, which actually stated the aircraft type or the position of
the undercarriage as known to the pilot. So there is reason to suppose that
this entire debate occurred without most of the contributors having any idea
what they were talking about. (Rant omitted)

BTW, a brief search, based on the pilot's name, determined that the aircraft
was N-1068B, a Mooney M20A. The preliminary report stated that damage was
minor, there were no injuries, and the description was: "ACFT LANDED GEAR
UP, HONDO, TX."

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
<...>
> The hard vs. soft argument is long debated. It's probably actually
> a wash.
<...>

Well, given that gear up landings in smaller G.A. aircraft are generally
non-events (except for repair costs) I think you are right.

Whatever surface you land on, taxiing back to the hanger seems to be
difficult though.

On the other hand, you do get to look forward to a fresh overhaul, eh?

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Alan Gerber]

In rec.aviation.student Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote:
> Whatever surface you land on, taxiing back to the hanger seems to be
> difficult though.

I understand that it takes full power to taxi back afterwards.

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

[Peter Dohm]

> The pilot landed successfully without doing a lot of damage to the
> airplane or hurting anyone. Saying he should have landed on the
> pavement rather than the grass is rather ridiculous considering the
> fine outcome of this emergency. Kudos to the pilot.
>
That sums it up. It really doesn't matter whether any of us might have done
it differently, since his choice worked successfully.

[Peter Dohm]

> The pilot landed successfully without doing a lot of damage to the
> airplane or hurting anyone. Saying he should have landed on the
> pavement rather than the grass is rather ridiculous considering the
> fine outcome of this emergency. Kudos to the pilot.
>
That sums it up. It really doesn't matter whether any of us might have done
it differently, since his choice worked successfully.

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On Mar 21, 9:26 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Tim writes:
> > Is there anything you don't know?
>
> Many things, but I don't generally discuss things that I don't know,

Yes you do, you're discussing aviation and you don't undrstand thing
one about it, just a bunch of facts you've digested and are ****ting
out far from their original state (as is usually the case with ****)



Bertie

[CJ]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
.130...
> "Morgans" > wrote in
> :
>
>>
>> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote >
>>> Like you!
>>
>> Although I am sure you have good intentions, regarding exposing Mx, if
>> you were to look at all of the posts from, and about his presence,
>> from him and others, I think you will find what you are trying to do
>> has been tried.
>
> Not by me it hasn't...
>
> I'm what ya might call "a little bit different"

Yeah, but in a good way.

I was a occasional poster on AAS when Ralphie disappeared to Florida (did
the T-bone fall off its pedastel yet?) and ADA/RAM when Tarver was sent
away. I miss them both.

Are you still persona non grata in New Zealand?

CJ (Not CJS)

[Mxsmanic]

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

> Yes you do, you're discussing aviation and you don't undrstand thing
> one about it, just a bunch of facts you've digested and are ****ting
> out far from their original state (as is usually the case with ****)

Consistently exaggerating does not help you to be persuasive or credible.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[mike regish]

No it's not.

mike

"150flivver" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The pilot landed successfully without doing a lot of damage to the
> airplane or hurting anyone. Saying he should have landed on the
> pavement rather than the grass is rather ridiculous considering the
> fine outcome of this emergency. Kudos to the pilot.
>

[mike regish]

Low wing-definitely on the pavement, no matter what the gear situation.

High wing-grass or pavement with all gear up, if possible. Pavement with one
or more down.

That's my answer and I'm sticking with it.

mike

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
news:%SBMh.14667$B7.8555@bigfe9...
>
> The part that botheres me is that I can recall nothing in this thread, or
> any link given, which actually stated the aircraft type or the position of
> the undercarriage as known to the pilot. So there is reason to suppose
> that
> this entire debate occurred without most of the contributors having any
> idea
> what they were talking about. (Rant omitted)
>
> BTW, a brief search, based on the pilot's name, determined that the
> aircraft
> was N-1068B, a Mooney M20A. The preliminary report stated that damage was
> minor, there were no injuries, and the description was: "ACFT LANDED GEAR
> UP, HONDO, TX."
>
>

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-03-19 14:55:04 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" > said:

>>
>
> Its odd that BSA's site http://www.scouting.org/ doesn't mention
> Explorers. I've not heard of them. Usually we try to get older boys
> involved in Venture scouting to keep them interested.
>
> -Robert

Explorers are essentially a separate organization now. They were once
the only Scouting program for older boys. However, the organizational
structure of Explorers made it vulnerable to legal assault by people
who do not like Scouting or its core values, so the Venture and Varsity
programs were developed instead.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-03-19 13:32:54 -0700, "Brad" > said:

> On Mar 19, 3:56 pm, wrote:
>
>> Wonder why the pilot chose to land on the grass instead of the hard,
>> smooth runway?
>
> Probably trying to avoid all that foam in the middle of the runway.

Yeah, right. Only very large airports have the ability to foam the
runway. They probably wouldn't do it for a gear up landing in a
bugsmasher.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-03-22 17:54:22 -0700, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at
wow way d0t com> said:

> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> ...
> <...>
>> The hard vs. soft argument is long debated. It's probably actually
>> a wash.
> <...>
>
> Well, given that gear up landings in smaller G.A. aircraft are generally
> non-events (except for repair costs) I think you are right.
>
> Whatever surface you land on, taxiing back to the hanger seems to be
> difficult though.
>
> On the other hand, you do get to look forward to a fresh overhaul, eh?

Nah. You kill the engine on most retracts and the prop stops horizontally.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-03-21 13:40:24 -0700, "mike regish" > said:

> Shouldn't have gone for the grass if there was pavement available.
>
> mike
>
> "Fred Goodwin, CMA" > wrote in message
> s.com...
>>
>> Seconds before the plane came down, Riegel said, the pilot told his
>> passengers he would land on the grass next to the runway.

I would agree with that. There is nothing wrong with the pavement. You
could flip over on the grass.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 09:04:24 -0700, C J Campbell
> wrote:

>On 2007-03-19 14:55:04 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" > said:
>
>>>
>>
>> Its odd that BSA's site http://www.scouting.org/ doesn't mention
>> Explorers. I've not heard of them. Usually we try to get older boys
>> involved in Venture scouting to keep them interested.
>>
>> -Robert
>
>Explorers are essentially a separate organization now. They were once
>the only Scouting program for older boys. However, the organizational
>structure of Explorers made it vulnerable to legal assault by people
>who do not like Scouting or its core values, so the Venture and Varsity
>programs were developed instead.

"Separate But Equal" worked for Blacks, right?

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> "Separate But Equal" worked for Blacks, right?

It did when there was true equality (which was rare), but it was an
unnecessary distinction, since there were no differences between blacks and
whites that justified it.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 14:33:32 +0200, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

writes:
>
>> "Separate But Equal" worked for Blacks, right?
>
>It did when there was true equality (which was rare), but it was an
>unnecessary distinction, since there were no differences between blacks and
>whites that justified it.

I was being facetious. How many whites got arrested and beaten for
drinking from a "Blacks Only" water fountain?

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> I was being facetious. How many whites got arrested and beaten for
> drinking from a "Blacks Only" water fountain?

Not a significant number. But whites who attempted to ignore segregation did
get arrested, beaten up, and otherwise persecuted. White skin only protected
them as long as they followed the party line.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On 24 Mar, 06:23, "CJ" > wrote:
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in messagenews:Xns98FB5795D8BCDnunyfjukkinbidness@207 .14.116.130...
>
> > "Morgans" > wrote in
> :
>
> >> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote >
> >>> Like you!
>
> >> Although I am sure you have good intentions, regarding exposing Mx, if
> >> you were to look at all of the posts from, and about his presence,
> >> from him and others, I think you will find what you are trying to do
> >> has been tried.
>
> > Not by me it hasn't...
>
> > I'm what ya might call "a little bit different"
>
> Yeah, but in a good way.
>
> I was a occasional poster on AAS when Ralphie disappeared to Florida (did
> the T-bone fall off its pedastel yet?) and ADA/RAM when Tarver was sent
> away. I miss them both.

Me too, and I do remember you..
>
> Are you still persona non grata in New Zealand?
>

Fraid so. Njikkie the nazi doesn't even love me anymore..


:(


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On 26 Mar, 14:47, Gord Beaman > wrote:
> Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:
>
> >> I was being facetious. How many whites got arrested and beaten for
> >> drinking from a "Blacks Only" water fountain?
>
> >Not a significant number. But whites who attempted to ignore segregation did
> >get arrested, beaten up, and otherwise persecuted. White skin only protected
> >them as long as they followed the party line.
>
> Whatta you guys think of the "Black Business Initiative" ads that
> we're seeing on TV now?...I can only imagine the grief of a
> person who tried to start something called "The White Business
> Initiative"...


isn't that what Presbyterians are for?



Bertie

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:45:21 +0200, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

writes:
>
>> I was being facetious. How many whites got arrested and beaten for
>> drinking from a "Blacks Only" water fountain?
>
>Not a significant number. But whites who attempted to ignore segregation did
>get arrested, beaten up, and otherwise persecuted. White skin only protected
>them as long as they followed the party line.

Like Black comedians noted, it was on 9-11-2001 that Blacks finally
became Americans for a short period of time while "we" were united
against Muslims. That is all over and it's business as usual.

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> Like Black comedians noted, it was on 9-11-2001 that Blacks finally
> became Americans for a short period of time while "we" were united
> against Muslims. That is all over and it's business as usual.

Those black comedians vastly exaggerated the situation. True racism is
largely gone in the U.S. (and in many parts of the U.S. it never clearly
existed, anyway), and discrimination is very rare. Indeed, blacks are at
least as likely to benefit from reverse discrimination as they are to suffer
from ordinary discrimination.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>
>> Yes you do, you're discussing aviation and you don't undrstand thing
>> one about it, just a bunch of facts you've digested and are ****ting
>> out far from their original state (as is usually the case with ****)
>
> Consistently exaggerating does not help you to be persuasive or credible.

I'm not trying to be either, fjukkwit.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> Like Black comedians noted, it was on 9-11-2001 that Blacks finally
>> became Americans for a short period of time while "we" were united
>> against Muslims. That is all over and it's business as usual.
>
> Those black comedians vastly exaggerated the situation. True racism
> is largely gone in the U.S. (and in many parts of the U.S. it never
> clearly existed, anyway), and discrimination is very rare.

Nest we need to campaign for those people born with cedar chips in theri
heads.



Bertie

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 07:44:19 +0200, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

writes:
>
>> Like Black comedians noted, it was on 9-11-2001 that Blacks finally
>> became Americans for a short period of time while "we" were united
>> against Muslims. That is all over and it's business as usual.
>
>Those black comedians vastly exaggerated the situation. True racism is
>largely gone in the U.S. (and in many parts of the U.S. it never clearly
>existed, anyway), and discrimination is very rare. Indeed, blacks are at
>least as likely to benefit from reverse discrimination as they are to suffer
>from ordinary discrimination.

What rock are YOU living under?

Just because you don't hear about Blacks being dragged behind cars
until their bodies fall off their heads...oh wait you do...in 1999

http://www.texasnaacp.org/jasper.htm

just because you don't hear about Blacks being pulled over for
"driving while Black"...oh wait you do...in 2000

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20000111/ai_n9600378

Just because the Klan doesn't burn crosses while wearing white sheets
doesn't mean racism has gone away, it just exists in socially
acceptable forms...oh wait you do hear about violent racism and
discrimination and burning crosses...in 2005

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0528-05.htm

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> What rock are YOU living under?

Most people parrot whatever politically-correct tripe they hear. I look at
reality.

> Just because you don't hear about Blacks being dragged behind cars
> until their bodies fall off their heads...oh wait you do...in 1999

Yeah, happens every day.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with aviation, so there's no point in
discussing it further here.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> What rock are YOU living under?
>
> Most people parrot whatever politically-correct tripe they hear. I
> look at reality.
>
>> Just because you don't hear about Blacks being dragged behind cars
>> until their bodies fall off their heads...oh wait you do...in 1999
>
> Yeah, happens every day.
>
> Anyway, this has nothing to do with aviation, so there's no point in
> discussing it further here.
>

Run away run away!

Bertie

[Margy Natalie]

wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 09:04:24 -0700, C J Campbell
> > wrote:
>
>
>>On 2007-03-19 14:55:04 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" > said:
>>
>>
>>>Its odd that BSA's site http://www.scouting.org/ doesn't mention
>>>Explorers. I've not heard of them. Usually we try to get older boys
>>>involved in Venture scouting to keep them interested.
>>>
>>>-Robert
>>
>>Explorers are essentially a separate organization now. They were once
>>the only Scouting program for older boys. However, the organizational
>>structure of Explorers made it vulnerable to legal assault by people
>>who do not like Scouting or its core values, so the Venture and Varsity
>>programs were developed instead.
>
>
> "Separate But Equal" worked for Blacks, right?
"Separate but equal is inherently unequal" Brown vs. Board of Education

Margy

[Margy Natalie]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> writes:
>
>
>>Like Black comedians noted, it was on 9-11-2001 that Blacks finally
>>became Americans for a short period of time while "we" were united
>>against Muslims. That is all over and it's business as usual.
>
>
> Those black comedians vastly exaggerated the situation. True racism is
> largely gone in the U.S. (and in many parts of the U.S. it never clearly
> existed, anyway), and discrimination is very rare. Indeed, blacks are at
> least as likely to benefit from reverse discrimination as they are to suffer
> from ordinary discrimination.
>
Said from one who lives in FRANCE! Who really seems to know nothing
about nothing.

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:32:12 +0200, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

writes:
>
>> What rock are YOU living under?
>
>Most people parrot whatever politically-correct tripe they hear. I look at
>reality.

THAT is reality, you dumb ****. These things still happen all the
time. God damn you're a stupid asshole living in denial.

>
>> Just because you don't hear about Blacks being dragged behind cars
>> until their bodies fall off their heads...oh wait you do...in 1999
>
>Yeah, happens every day.

You mean your ****ing apathy happens every day.

>
>Anyway, this has nothing to do with aviation, so there's no point in
>discussing it further here.

Yes, you were beaten, ran in circles like a pussy, and just want the
stinging from your humiliating spanking to end.

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:58:00 -0400, Margy Natalie >
wrote:

>Mxsmanic wrote:
>> writes:
>>
>>
>>>Like Black comedians noted, it was on 9-11-2001 that Blacks finally
>>>became Americans for a short period of time while "we" were united
>>>against Muslims. That is all over and it's business as usual.
>>
>>
>> Those black comedians vastly exaggerated the situation. True racism is
>> largely gone in the U.S. (and in many parts of the U.S. it never clearly
>> existed, anyway), and discrimination is very rare. Indeed, blacks are at
>> least as likely to benefit from reverse discrimination as they are to suffer
>> from ordinary discrimination.
>>
>Said from one who lives in FRANCE! Who really seems to know nothing
>about nothing.

France? A Nation of Surrender Monkeys who would be eating pizza and
sauerkraut if it weren't for the Americans.

LOL.

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:56:27 -0400, Margy Natalie >
wrote:

wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 09:04:24 -0700, C J Campbell
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 2007-03-19 14:55:04 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" > said:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Its odd that BSA's site http://www.scouting.org/ doesn't mention
>>>>Explorers. I've not heard of them. Usually we try to get older boys
>>>>involved in Venture scouting to keep them interested.
>>>>
>>>>-Robert
>>>
>>>Explorers are essentially a separate organization now. They were once
>>>the only Scouting program for older boys. However, the organizational
>>>structure of Explorers made it vulnerable to legal assault by people
>>>who do not like Scouting or its core values, so the Venture and Varsity
>>>programs were developed instead.
>>
>>
>> "Separate But Equal" worked for Blacks, right?
>"Separate but equal is inherently unequal" Brown vs. Board of Education
>
>Margy

Precisely.

[Mxsmanic]

Margy Natalie writes:

> "Separate but equal is inherently unequal" Brown vs. Board of Education

So when will the unisex toilets be installed?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Margy Natalie writes:
>
>> "Separate but equal is inherently unequal" Brown vs. Board of Education
>
> So when will the unisex toilets be installed?

Too easy


Bertie

[John Mazor[_2_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Margy Natalie writes:
>
>> "Separate but equal is inherently unequal" Brown vs.
>> Board of Education
>
> So when will the unisex toilets be installed?

You need to get out more, France already has them
everywhere. Do you have voyeurism issues in addition to
your other problems?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

wrote in :

> On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:32:12 +0200, Mxsmanic >
> wrote:
>
writes:
>>
>>> What rock are YOU living under?
>>
>>Most people parrot whatever politically-correct tripe they hear. I
>>look at reality.
>
> THAT is reality, you dumb ****. These things still happen all the
> time. God damn you're a stupid asshole living in denial.
>
>>
>>> Just because you don't hear about Blacks being dragged behind cars
>>> until their bodies fall off their heads...oh wait you do...in 1999
>>
>>Yeah, happens every day.
>
> You mean your ****ing apathy happens every day.
>
>>
>>Anyway, this has nothing to do with aviation, so there's no point in
>>discussing it further here.
>
> Yes, you were beaten, ran in circles like a pussy, and just want the
> stinging from your humiliating spanking to end.
>

I disagree, he obviously doesn't want the spnakking to end..


Bertie

[Mxsmanic]

John Mazor writes:

> You need to get out more, France already has them
> everywhere.

Brown vs. Board of Education didn't take place in France.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[John Mazor[_2_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> John Mazor writes:
>
>> You need to get out more, France already has them
>> everywhere.
>
> Brown vs. Board of Education didn't take place in France.

A red-letter day! MaxManiac got his first fact right!

Anyone think he can make it two in a row?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> John Mazor writes:
>
>> You need to get out more, France already has them
>> everywhere.
>
> Brown vs. Board of Education didn't take place in France.

BPlease, I've asked you to try and keep your so-called sex life at home..

Bertie

[Margy Natalie]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Margy Natalie writes:
>
>
>>"Separate but equal is inherently unequal" Brown vs. Board of Education
>
>
> So when will the unisex toilets be installed?
>
Some places have them.

[Marty Shapiro]

"John Mazor" > wrote in
news:70WOh.5521$8l2.711@trnddc01:

>
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
>> John Mazor writes:
>>
>>> You need to get out more, France already has them
>>> everywhere.
>>
>> Brown vs. Board of Education didn't take place in France.
>
> A red-letter day! MaxManiac got his first fact right!
>
> Anyone think he can make it two in a row?
>
>
>
No. He just stated in another thread "whereas
something like a 737 starts at around $135 million new"

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Dave Stadt]

"Margy Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> Margy Natalie writes:
>>
>>
>>>"Separate but equal is inherently unequal" Brown vs. Board of Education
>>
>>
>> So when will the unisex toilets be installed?
>>
> Some places have them.

OSH has thousands.

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:26:15 +0200, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

>Margy Natalie writes:
>
>> "Separate but equal is inherently unequal" Brown vs. Board of Education
>
>So when will the unisex toilets be installed?

That way you won't feel guilty wearing a dress and going to the
ladies' room?

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> That way you won't feel guilty wearing a dress and going to the
> ladies' room?

No, that way the obvious hypocrisy in saying that "separate but equal is
inherently unequal" but enforcing segregation in toilets would be eliminated.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> That way you won't feel guilty wearing a dress and going to the
>> ladies' room?
>
> No, that way the obvious hypocrisy in saying that "separate but equal
> is inherently unequal" but enforcing segregation in toilets would be
> eliminated.
>

What a mind..


Bertie