I'm not a real Pilot?

[David[_3_]]

Once again, I'm not a real pilot.
Yesterday my daughter was confronted at school by
some (6th grade) classmates, they said her father was
not a real pilot.

To give you a little back history, my daughter is so
proud of her father that she's always telling anyone
she meets that her father is a pilot.
She doesn't tell them that I fly for a living because
she knows that we fly for the joy of traveling by air.
When I was younger I wanted to be a pilot but
because of all the negative people that surrounded
me, they convinced me that it was something I could
not achieve, so it wasn't till I was in my twenties that
I went out and got my certificate anyway and have
been flying for the last twenty plus years.
Long story short: I really enjoy flying, for the fun of
it and that is it.

My daughters classmates met someone outside of
school that knows me and when they got to talking
the kid mentioned that I was a pilot for an airline and
that person (an adult) corrected them and told them
that I was not a real pilot that I only fly TOY planes.

Funny thing is that I have a drivers license and have
never had the urge to drive a bus, I have been boating
all my life since I was 10 years old and have never
wanted to become a cruise-ship captain.
So why is it the general public thinks that to be a real
pilot you have to aspire to become a scheduled airline captain?
Flying around on someone else's schedule is not my
idea of fun especially to destinations I don't really care to go to.

I normally invite those that tell me I'm not a real pilot
to go up and fly around in the clouds with me and
see if they can land the plane.

Oh well!
Guess it leave more room in the plane for those that
should really be there to begin with.

David - MBP: make believe pilot

[Peter R.]

On 3/30/2007 10:07:14 AM, "David" wrote:

> My daughters classmates met someone outside of
> school that knows me and when they got to talking
> the kid mentioned that I was a pilot for an airline and
> that person (an adult) corrected them and told them
> that I was not a real pilot that I only fly TOY planes.

This person seems to be an insecure adult who believes that setting the bar
higher than what you have accomplished makes him feel better about himself.

Of course, had you been a scheduled airline pilot this person probably would
have corrected the young girl by saying that only fighter pilots are real
pilots and that scheduled airline pilots are nothing but glorified bus
drivers.

And so it goes. Disregard the criticism and enjoy the fruits of your
accomplishment. Life is too short to get caught up in others' negativity.

--
Peter

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Rule 1 for feeling good about yourself in this life is simply this;
Don't ever allow someone else's problem to become your problem.
Dudley Henriques


"David" > wrote in message
...
> Once again, I'm not a real pilot.
> Yesterday my daughter was confronted at school by
> some (6th grade) classmates, they said her father was
> not a real pilot.
>
> To give you a little back history, my daughter is so
> proud of her father that she's always telling anyone
> she meets that her father is a pilot.
> She doesn't tell them that I fly for a living because
> she knows that we fly for the joy of traveling by air.
> When I was younger I wanted to be a pilot but
> because of all the negative people that surrounded
> me, they convinced me that it was something I could
> not achieve, so it wasn't till I was in my twenties that
> I went out and got my certificate anyway and have
> been flying for the last twenty plus years.
> Long story short: I really enjoy flying, for the fun of
> it and that is it.
>
> My daughters classmates met someone outside of
> school that knows me and when they got to talking
> the kid mentioned that I was a pilot for an airline and
> that person (an adult) corrected them and told them
> that I was not a real pilot that I only fly TOY planes.
>
> Funny thing is that I have a drivers license and have
> never had the urge to drive a bus, I have been boating
> all my life since I was 10 years old and have never
> wanted to become a cruise-ship captain.
> So why is it the general public thinks that to be a real
> pilot you have to aspire to become a scheduled airline captain?
> Flying around on someone else's schedule is not my
> idea of fun especially to destinations I don't really care to go to.
>
> I normally invite those that tell me I'm not a real pilot
> to go up and fly around in the clouds with me and
> see if they can land the plane.
>
> Oh well!
> Guess it leave more room in the plane for those that
> should really be there to begin with.
>
> David - MBP: make believe pilot
>

[Montblack]

("Dudley Henriques" wrote)
> Rule 1 for feeling good about yourself in this life is simply this;
> Don't ever allow someone else's problem to become your problem.


Rule #2 - FFGAY:
(Um, ...you know what I meant)

Learn to say "No" by the time you're 35.
- Your life will improve greatly!

I saw this on one of those 'saying-a-day' cube calendars.


Montblack

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 30, 7:07 am, "David" > wrote:
> Once again, I'm not a real pilot.
> Yesterday my daughter was confronted at school by
> some (6th grade) classmates, they said her father was
> not a real pilot.
>
> To give you a little back history, my daughter is so
> proud of her father that she's always telling anyone
> she meets that her father is a pilot.
> She doesn't tell them that I fly for a living because
> she knows that we fly for the joy of traveling by air.
> When I was younger I wanted to be a pilot but
> because of all the negative people that surrounded
> me, they convinced me that it was something I could
> not achieve, so it wasn't till I was in my twenties that
> I went out and got my certificate anyway and have
> been flying for the last twenty plus years.
> Long story short: I really enjoy flying, for the fun of
> it and that is it.
>
> My daughters classmates met someone outside of
> school that knows me and when they got to talking
> the kid mentioned that I was a pilot for an airline and
> that person (an adult) corrected them and told them
> that I was not a real pilot that I only fly TOY planes.
>
> Funny thing is that I have a drivers license and have
> never had the urge to drive a bus, I have been boating
> all my life since I was 10 years old and have never
> wanted to become a cruise-ship captain.
> So why is it the general public thinks that to be a real
> pilot you have to aspire to become a scheduled airline captain?
> Flying around on someone else's schedule is not my
> idea of fun especially to destinations I don't really care to go to.
>
> I normally invite those that tell me I'm not a real pilot
> to go up and fly around in the clouds with me and
> see if they can land the plane.
>
> Oh well!
> Guess it leave more room in the plane for those that
> should really be there to begin with.
>
> David - MBP: make believe pilot

Am I missing something? Why do you care? Man, if you care about every
negative thing people say about you you'll have a bad experience on
USNET. ;)

-Robert

[Walt]

On Mar 30, 10:08 am, "Montblack" <Y4_NOT!...
> wrote:
> ("Dudley Henriques" wrote)
>
> > Rule 1 for feeling good about yourself in this life is simply this;
> > Don't ever allow someone else's problem to become your problem.
>
> Rule #2 - FFGAY:
> (Um, ...you know what I meant)
>
> Learn to say "No" by the time you're 35.
> - Your life will improve greatly!
>
> I saw this on one of those 'saying-a-day' cube calendars.
>
> Montblack

Okay, I'm clueless; what does FFGAY mean?

--Walt
Bozeman

[Flyin'[email protected]]

"David" > wrote:
> Once again, I'm not a real pilot.
> Yesterday my daughter was confronted at school by
> some (6th grade) classmates, they said her father was
> not a real pilot.
>
<SNIP>
>
> I normally invite those that tell me I'm not a real pilot
> to go up and fly around in the clouds with me and
> see if they can land the plane.
>
> Oh well!
> Guess it leave more room in the plane for those that
> should really be there to begin with.
>
> David - MBP: make believe pilot

Yep David, those are the people you want to take for a ride and while on
short final, let go of the controls and tell them, "You Have the Plane."

Want to see how fast you become a real pilot? ;-)

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

[Montblack]

("Walt" wrote)
>> > Rule 1 for feeling good about yourself in this life is simply this;
>> > Don't ever allow someone else's problem to become your problem.

>> Rule #2 - FFGAY:
>> (Um, ...you know what I meant)

> Okay, I'm clueless; what does FFGAY mean?


"Rule 1 (F)or (F)eeling (G)ood (A)bout (Y)ourself..."

FFGAY :-)


MB

[Mxsmanic]

David writes:

> So why is it the general public thinks that to be a real
> pilot you have to aspire to become a scheduled airline captain?

For much the same reason that some people think that people who fly simulators
cannot be real pilots. It's human nature to try to rank people, always in
such a way that the person doing the ranking turns out to merit a high rank,
whereas other people turn out to merit a low rank.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> Yep David, those are the people you want to take for a ride and while on
> short final, let go of the controls and tell them, "You Have the Plane."
>
> Want to see how fast you become a real pilot?

Of course, if they successfully land, your ego may implode.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Montblack]

("Jim Burns" wrote)
>> Learn to say "No" by the time you're 35.
>> - Your life will improve greatly!

> Ok, now I know this guy is an imposter.
> You are NOT Montblack.
> The Montblack I know is older than 35 and while he might not say "YES" to
> everything he certainly doesn't say "NO" to anything. Obviously this rule
> doesn't apply to the "Real Mont-yep-sure-you betcha-of
> course-absolutely-affirmative-black".


47 ...and yes, I'm a slow learner. <g>


Montblack
Go ahead. Try asking me to come over and plant acres and acres of potatoes
and beans. Just you try!

My answer: "Oh boy, can I drive the BIG tractor?"

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> David writes:
>
>> So why is it the general public thinks that to be a real
>> pilot you have to aspire to become a scheduled airline captain?
>
> For much the same reason that some people think that people who fly
> simulators cannot be real pilots.

No, you can't be a real pilot beczause you're an idiot,. has nothing to do
with you pretending to be a pilot in your corn flakes box

[James M. Knox]

"David" > wrote in :
>
> My daughters classmates met someone outside of
> school that knows me and when they got to talking
> the kid mentioned that I was a pilot for an airline and
> that person (an adult) corrected them and told them
> that I was not a real pilot that I only fly TOY planes.

A few years ago a reporter for an east Texas newspaper did a real nice
article on Angel Flight, featuring me. I appreciated the publicity for the
charity, but yeah, it said something similar. The exact phrase was
something like "and you don't even have to be a real pilot to volunteer;
amateur pilots are welcome as well."

[Still bugs me! <G>]

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1300 Koenig Lane West fax 512-371-5716
Suite 200
Austin, Tx 78756
-----------------------------------------------

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

Ok, now I know this guy is an imposter.
You are NOT Montblack.
The Montblack I know is older than 35 and while he might not say "YES" to
everything he certainly doesn't say "NO" to anything. Obviously this rule
doesn't apply to the "Real Mont-yep-sure-you betcha-of
course-absolutely-affirmative-black".

Jim

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Dudley Henriques" wrote)
> > Rule 1 for feeling good about yourself in this life is simply this;
> > Don't ever allow someone else's problem to become your problem.
>
>
> Rule #2 - FFGAY:
> (Um, ...you know what I meant)
>
> Learn to say "No" by the time you're 35.
> - Your life will improve greatly!
>
> I saw this on one of those 'saying-a-day' cube calendars.
>
>
> Montblack
>
>

[NTurk]

On Mar 30, 11:03 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
> No, you can't be a real pilot beczause you're an idiot,. has nothing to do
> with you pretending to be a pilot in your corn flakes box

You on the other hand are an RJ Doofus.

[Jay Honeck]

> Once again, I'm not a real pilot.
> Yesterday my daughter was confronted at school by
> some (6th grade) classmates, they said her father was
> not a real pilot.

Oh, hell, the world is full of idiots.

I've been told I'm not "really" a hotelier because we only have 28
suites...

I've been told I wasn't "really" a newspaperman because I worked the
business side of it...

I've been told that I'm not "really" a pilot because I'm not
instrument rated...

I've been told I don't ride "real" motorcycles cuz I don't ride a
Harley...

The list goes on and on. I learned a long time ago not to define my
success (or failure) by what others think.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

Oh but first we have this real cool rock collection we want you to see!
Really, they're all over the place. And we'll even let you take them home
with you! The best part is that they are FREE! :)

Jim
Real farmer masquerading as a Real Pilot

[Peter Dohm]

> Oh but first we have this real cool rock collection we want you to see!
> Really, they're all over the place. And we'll even let you take them home
> with you! The best part is that they are FREE! :)
>
My favorite four letter "F" word!

Peter

[John Theune]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> Once again, I'm not a real pilot.
>> Yesterday my daughter was confronted at school by
>> some (6th grade) classmates, they said her father was
>> not a real pilot.
>
> Oh, hell, the world is full of idiots.
>
> I've been told I'm not "really" a hotelier because we only have 28
> suites...
>
> I've been told I wasn't "really" a newspaperman because I worked the
> business side of it...
>
> I've been told that I'm not "really" a pilot because I'm not
> instrument rated...
>
> I've been told I don't ride "real" motorcycles cuz I don't ride a
> Harley...
>
> The list goes on and on. I learned a long time ago not to define my
> success (or failure) by what others think.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
My personal favorite was being told I was not a "real" father. I took
this rather personal as I had adopted both of my children. I was not
pleased with the comment until the rest of it was explained. I was told
I was not a real dad because I used pampers and a microwave to heat
formula ( yes I was careful to test it ) I allowed as I did not believe
I needed to wash cloth diapers and heat bottles over a wood stove to
make me feel real.

[Jai]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in news:1175281166.069656.208650
@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:

>> Once again, I'm not a real pilot.
>> Yesterday my daughter was confronted at school by
>> some (6th grade) classmates, they said her father was
>> not a real pilot.
>
> Oh, hell, the world is full of idiots.
>
> I've been told I'm not "really" a hotelier because we only have 28
> suites...
>
> I've been told I wasn't "really" a newspaperman because I worked the
> business side of it...
>
> I've been told that I'm not "really" a pilot because I'm not
> instrument rated...
>
> I've been told I don't ride "real" motorcycles cuz I don't ride a
> Harley...

Whereas you're clearly a real dickhead. Only mystery is whether you were
born one or self-taught.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
> Oh but first we have this real cool rock collection we want you to see!
> Really, they're all over the place. And we'll even let you take them home
> with you! The best part is that they are FREE! :)
>
> Jim
> Real farmer masquerading as a Real Pilot


What you need is an Oshkosh style air show on your farm.
Back in the olden days, they would send a tractor with a big flat bed
trailer to wander around the grounds and the PA kept reminding people to
bend over and pick up a rock and toss it on the trailer as it went by.
They got a LOT of rocks picked up that way.
(At least I assume that was just years ago - shouldn't be many rocks left by
now - or am I mistaken?)

But to get back on topic - I've run into people who insist that they want to
fly "real" airplanes - not gliders...

No brains, no headaches.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Tim]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> writes:
>
>
>>Yep David, those are the people you want to take for a ride and while on
>>short final, let go of the controls and tell them, "You Have the Plane."
>>
>>Want to see how fast you become a real pilot?
>
>
> Of course, if they successfully land, your ego may implode.
>


Not likely

[Tim]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> David writes:
>
>
>>So why is it the general public thinks that to be a real
>>pilot you have to aspire to become a scheduled airline captain?
>
>
> For much the same reason that some people think that people who fly simulators
> cannot be real pilots. It's human nature to try to rank people, always in
> such a way that the person doing the ranking turns out to merit a high rank,
> whereas other people turn out to merit a low rank.
>

No one said you could not be one. Just that you are not one. Big
difference.

[Chris G.]

Heck, see what kind of barnstormers you can rustle up and see if they'll
practice "tail dragging" for you. That would (if they're 'real'
pilots <g> ) get you some nice, straight rows to plant seeds in! :P

Chris G.
Always thinkin'

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
> "Jim Burns" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Oh but first we have this real cool rock collection we want you to see!
>> Really, they're all over the place. And we'll even let you take them home
>> with you! The best part is that they are FREE! :)
>>
>> Jim
>> Real farmer masquerading as a Real Pilot
>
>
> What you need is an Oshkosh style air show on your farm.
> Back in the olden days, they would send a tractor with a big flat bed
> trailer to wander around the grounds and the PA kept reminding people to
> bend over and pick up a rock and toss it on the trailer as it went by.
> They got a LOT of rocks picked up that way.
> (At least I assume that was just years ago - shouldn't be many rocks left by
> now - or am I mistaken?)
>
> But to get back on topic - I've run into people who insist that they want to
> fly "real" airplanes - not gliders...
>
> No brains, no headaches.
>
> --
> Geoff
> The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
> remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>
>

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

"NTurk" > wrote in
oups.com:

> On Mar 30, 11:03 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>>
>> No, you can't be a real pilot beczause you're an idiot,. has nothing
>> to do with you pretending to be a pilot in your corn flakes box
>
> You on the other hand are an RJ Doofus.
>

Am I now?


Bwawhawhhahwhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahw!


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Tim > wrote in :

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> David writes:
>>
>>
>>>So why is it the general public thinks that to be a real
>>>pilot you have to aspire to become a scheduled airline captain?
>>
>>
>> For much the same reason that some people think that people who fly
>> simulators cannot be real pilots. It's human nature to try to rank
>> people, always in such a way that the person doing the ranking turns
>> out to merit a high rank, whereas other people turn out to merit a
>> low rank.
>>
>
> No one said you could not be one. Just that you are not one. Big
> difference.

No, not so I said he couldn't be one. He can't


Bertie

[Mike 'Flyin'8']

>Mxsmanic wrote:
>> writes:
>>
>>
>>>Yep David, those are the people you want to take for a ride and while on
>>>short final, let go of the controls and tell them, "You Have the Plane."
>>>
>>>Want to see how fast you become a real pilot?
>>
>>
>> Of course, if they successfully land, your ego may implode.
>>
>
>
>Not likely

Good thing I don't have an ego problem I guess...

I agree it is not likely they would successfully land....


Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

Hmm.... I've supposedly made some pretty interesting marks in a gravel strip
with the tailwheel of a SuperCub.... interesting idea.
Jim

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

David,
Teach your daughter the word "aviator". Introduce her to fellow aviators.
Such as Lindbergh... Wiley Post... Amelia Earhart... Burt Rutan... The
Tuskegee Airmen... Doolittle's Raiders... take your pick of thousands of
aviators.... all of them... each and every one of them was first considered
themselves a pilot. I'm sure she's proud of her Dad, and deservedly so.

Jim
Be who you are and say what you feel. Because those who mind don't matter,
and those who matter don't mind.

[Mxsmanic]

Tim writes:

> Not likely

Which makes it all the more humiliating if it happens.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Tim writes:

> No one said you could not be one. Just that you are not one. Big
> difference.

I didn't say anything about myself.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> Oh, hell, the world is full of idiots.
>
> I've been told I'm not "really" a hotelier because we only have 28
> suites...
>
> I've been told I wasn't "really" a newspaperman because I worked the
> business side of it...
>
> I've been told that I'm not "really" a pilot because I'm not
> instrument rated...
>
> I've been told I don't ride "real" motorcycles cuz I don't ride a
> Harley...
>
> The list goes on and on. I learned a long time ago not to define my
> success (or failure) by what others think.

It's the principle of the five experts. No matter what your experience or
knowledge, there are always people around who will say, "You can't discuss
that--there are only five people in the world qualified to discuss that."

In other words, if someone wants to put you down, there will always be some
qualification that you must have and that you lack, in his eyes. Conversely,
if he wants to build you up, then whatever qualifications will be more than
sufficient in his eyes. And very often, in the former case, the critical
missing qualification will be whatever he can find that he has and you do not.

It is indeed a waste of time to worry about what other people think.

Which reminds me of something else I once heard: At 20, you worry constantly
about what other people think of you. At 40, you don't care what they think
of you. At 60, you realize that they were never thinking of you at all.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: Mxsmanic >
>
>>> So why is it the general public thinks that to be a real
>>> pilot you have to aspire to become a scheduled airline captain?
>>
>>For much the same reason that some people think that people who fly
>>simulators
>>cannot be real pilots.
>
> I don't know anyone who thinks that people who fly simulators
> cannot be real pilots.

I agree with your answer to this poster totally.

There are many people out here who use and enjoy a desktop simulator who can
interface quite well with the real world of aviation and indeed do so here
on these newsgroups on a daily basis 24/7.

There is also no reason put forth by the real world aviation community that
I have ever seen anyway, that denies anyone from becoming a pilot if that is
their choice.
The exception to this of course would be a simulator savvy person who for
some reason known only to themselves just can't interface with the real
world pilot community.
When this happens, and in my experience on these groups, this has happened
only on extremely rare occasions, it is quite unfortunate.
I will pass on the opporunity to speak to the present situation, in the hope
that it might rectify itself down the line sometime in the future, although
that prospect does appear to seem dim to say the least :-))

Dudley Henriques

[Mxsmanic]

Dudley Henriques writes:

> There is also no reason put forth by the real world aviation community that
> I have ever seen anyway, that denies anyone from becoming a pilot if that is
> their choice.

I hope your next medical goes well.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Andrew Sarangan]

Another similar comment I often encounter is that I am not a real
doctor because I did not go to medical school.


On Mar 30, 2:59 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> > Once again, I'm not a real pilot.
> > Yesterday my daughter was confronted at school by
> > some (6th grade) classmates, they said her father was
> > not a real pilot.
>
> Oh, hell, the world is full of idiots.
>
> I've been told I'm not "really" a hotelier because we only have 28
> suites...
>
> I've been told I wasn't "really" a newspaperman because I worked the
> business side of it...
>
> I've been told that I'm not "really" a pilot because I'm not
> instrument rated...
>
> I've been told I don't ride "real" motorcycles cuz I don't ride a
> Harley...
>
> The list goes on and on. I learned a long time ago not to define my
> success (or failure) by what others think.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
>> There is also no reason put forth by the real world aviation community
>> that
>> I have ever seen anyway, that denies anyone from becoming a pilot if that
>> is
>> their choice.
>
> I hope your next medical goes well.

I'll re-phrase that which should have been obvious;

"There is no reason put forth by the real world aviation community that I
have ever seen, that would deny anyone from becoming a pilot if that is
their choice."
The only limitation or limitations that I have ever seen in my 50 odd years
in the flight instruction business that would prevent someone from becoming
a pilot would be a medical, physical, or financial limitation concerning the
person wishing to seek this goal.
Dudley Henriques

[Mxsmanic]

Dudley Henriques writes:

> The only limitation or limitations that I have ever seen in my 50 odd years
> in the flight instruction business that would prevent someone from becoming
> a pilot would be a medical, physical, or financial limitation concerning the
> person wishing to seek this goal.

That's an extremely broad range of possible obstacles.

I asked at the pilot shop today if it's true that getting even just a PPL (in
France) costs around $17,000, and this was confirmed to me. With a per capita
income of $30,100, only a handful of people in the country can ever hope to
become pilots. Add that to the need for a medical and lots of time, and
almost nobody can reach that goal.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Don Tuite]

On 30 Mar 2007 18:53:30 -0700, "Andrew Sarangan" >
wrote:

>
>Another similar comment I often encounter is that I am not a real
>doctor because I did not go to medical school.
>
Most places, you'd be "Professor Doctor" Sarangan. In North America
and Britian, though, Wikipedia says persons like yourself are commonly
addressed as"Doctor," although the Brits balk at calling a dentist or
veterinarian that. (Not sure about Canada.) And I think most educated
North Americans from either side of the 49th would consider a person
with a J.D. or a D.Ed who called himself a doctor a pompous twit. I'd
say the same for doctors of divinity myself, but newspapers seem to
disagree with me.

And after reading your C.V., I would certainly be wary of playing
cards with you, Doc.

Don

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> Yep David, those are the people you want to take for a ride and while on
>> short final, let go of the controls and tell them, "You Have the Plane."
>>
>> Want to see how fast you become a real pilot?
>
> Of course, if they successfully land, your ego may implode.
>

I can tel you for a fact you couldn't do it.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Tim writes:
>
>> Not likely
>
> Which makes it all the more humiliating if it happens.
>

You couldn't start my airplane, you couldn't taxi it. you couldn't get
it to the end of th erunway in one piece, if you did, you couldn't do a
succesful takeoff roll in one piece, nor rotate to the correct attitude
and chances are, even if you did all the above, you wouldn't clear the
obstacles at the end of the runway where it's based.

and that's just a widdle bitty lightplane.

As to the one I work on, you couldn't figure out how to even get on
board it and power it up so you could do any of the above.


Bertie

[Sylvain]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> I asked at the pilot shop today if it's true that getting even just a PPL
> (in France) costs around ...

You made the choice of going there.. I was there in the first place (well,
in the close neighborhood) and made the choice to move away from it. One
of us flies, the other doesn't. We live with the consequences of our
choices.

--Sylvain

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
>> The only limitation or limitations that I have ever seen in my 50 odd
>> years in the flight instruction business that would prevent someone
>> from becoming a pilot would be a medical, physical, or financial
>> limitation concerning the person wishing to seek this goal.
>
> That's an extremely broad range of possible obstacles.

Of course, I don't know if "****ing idiot" is actualy expressed in that
exact phrase anywhere in the flight surgeon's brief, but it wouldn't
matter. Even if they decided to ignore the mental deficiency, your
unparralelled idiocy would keep you from ever learning, well, anythign..


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Jay Honeck writes:
>
>> Oh, hell, the world is full of idiots.
>>
>> I've been told I'm not "really" a hotelier because we only have 28
>> suites...
>>
>> I've been told I wasn't "really" a newspaperman because I worked the
>> business side of it...
>>
>> I've been told that I'm not "really" a pilot because I'm not
>> instrument rated...
>>
>> I've been told I don't ride "real" motorcycles cuz I don't ride a
>> Harley...
>>
>> The list goes on and on. I learned a long time ago not to define my
>> success (or failure) by what others think.
>
> It's the principle of the five experts. No matter what your
> experience or knowledge, there are always people around who will say,
> "You can't discuss that--there are only five people in the world
> qualified to discuss that."
>

that' sjust what they tell you to make you go away because you're such a
PITA.

Bertie

[Tim]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Tim writes:
>
>
>>Not likely
>
>
> Which makes it all the more humiliating if it happens.
>

How is ego or humiliation involved at all?

It is highly unlikely that a person who never flew/piloted an aircraft
before could land one successfully. There is a reason it takes about 10
to 30 hours of instruction to land a single engine plane. It is not
something that people can do naturally. There are also enough people
flying small planes who have used "flight simulators" prior to taking
lessons. I have never, ever heard of someone who could land a plane
right from the start. It just does not happen.

Granted, 10 to 20 hours is not a lot of time and just about anyone can
be taught how to do it. Given that, how would anyone get an ego issue
from flying? I am not sure where you get that crap about pilots having
huge egos. Is this from real experience, or just from postings on the
internet?

[Tim]

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> Tim > wrote in :
>
>
>>Mxsmanic wrote:
>>
>>>David writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>So why is it the general public thinks that to be a real
>>>>pilot you have to aspire to become a scheduled airline captain?
>>>
>>>
>>>For much the same reason that some people think that people who fly
>>>simulators cannot be real pilots. It's human nature to try to rank
>>>people, always in such a way that the person doing the ranking turns
>>>out to merit a high rank, whereas other people turn out to merit a
>>>low rank.
>>>
>>
>>No one said you could not be one. Just that you are not one. Big
>>difference.
>
>
> No, not so I said he couldn't be one. He can't
>
>
> Bertie


Yes, I didn;t see your posts until after.
I think you are incorrect. It is not that hard to do. I would bet he
could do it if he took lessons.

By the way, you are about as annoying as he is in your posts.
Go back to fantasy australia, please.

[Tim]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Tim writes:
>
>
>>No one said you could not be one. Just that you are not one. Big
>>difference.
>
>
> I didn't say anything about myself.
>

I was using "you" as a specific case of your generalality of people who
fly sims can't fly.

Your quote below.

"some people think that people who fly simulators cannot be real pilots."


If you would rather, I can generalize too...

Most people can learn to be real pilots. It has nothing to do with
simulators. Now, that is altogether different than saying
"people who only use games or simulators are not pilots"
If you don't pilot a flying device, you are not a pilot. If you "fly"
in a simulator or in a game - you are only a game pilot or a simulator
pilot.

[Sylvain]

In many places physicians only have a 'courtesy' titles, since academically
speaking they haven't actually completed the requirements of a doctorate
(I believe this is the case in UK/Ireland; though some do get a real
doctorate by doing a PhD as well, researchers mostly);

The only time when I insist on the proper use of my title is when
confronted with people who first insist on the proper use of theirs (mostly
pompous twits in white coats with shiny stethoscopes dangling from
the pocket :-) )

--Sylvain


Don Tuite wrote:

> On 30 Mar 2007 18:53:30 -0700, "Andrew Sarangan" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Another similar comment I often encounter is that I am not a real
>>doctor because I did not go to medical school.
>>
> Most places, you'd be "Professor Doctor" Sarangan. In North America
> and Britian, though, Wikipedia says persons like yourself are commonly
> addressed as"Doctor," although the Brits balk at calling a dentist or
> veterinarian that. (Not sure about Canada.) And I think most educated
> North Americans from either side of the 49th would consider a person
> with a J.D. or a D.Ed who called himself a doctor a pompous twit. I'd
> say the same for doctors of divinity myself, but newspapers seem to
> disagree with me.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Tim > wrote in :

> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>> Tim > wrote in news:gNfPh.13$zm5.4
@newsfe12.lga:
>>
>>
>>>Mxsmanic wrote:
>>>
>>>>David writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>So why is it the general public thinks that to be a real
>>>>>pilot you have to aspire to become a scheduled airline captain?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>For much the same reason that some people think that people who fly
>>>>simulators cannot be real pilots. It's human nature to try to rank
>>>>people, always in such a way that the person doing the ranking turns
>>>>out to merit a high rank, whereas other people turn out to merit a
>>>>low rank.
>>>>
>>>
>>>No one said you could not be one. Just that you are not one. Big
>>>difference.
>>
>>
>> No, not so I said he couldn't be one. He can't
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>
>
> Yes, I didn;t see your posts until after.
> I think you are incorrect. It is not that hard to do.

Didn't say it was, just too hard for him.

I would bet he
> could do it if he took lessons.
>
> By the way, you are about as annoying as he is in your posts.

Good. You don;t like me, killfile me. Otherwise, go **** yourself.


Bertie

[Dave Doe]

In article >,
says...
> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
> > The only limitation or limitations that I have ever seen in my 50 odd years
> > in the flight instruction business that would prevent someone from becoming
> > a pilot would be a medical, physical, or financial limitation concerning the
> > person wishing to seek this goal.
>
> That's an extremely broad range of possible obstacles.
>
> I asked at the pilot shop today if it's true that getting even just a PPL (in
> France) costs around $17,000, and this was confirmed to me. With a per capita
> income of $30,100, only a handful of people in the country can ever hope to
> become pilots. Add that to the need for a medical and lots of time, and
> almost nobody can reach that goal.

That doesn't sound too bad - consider that in that you get 50+ hours of
*real* flying. Indeed it's what you're really paying for (the
instruction costs and other costs are relatively small by comparision).

--
Duncan

[Aluckyguess]

Who cares what anyone thinks.
When I meet an ATP I usually say oh you're a real pilot and we laugh.

[wrxpilot]

On Mar 30, 11:57 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> David writes:
> > So why is it the general public thinks that to be a real
> > pilot you have to aspire to become a scheduled airline captain?
>
> For much the same reason that some people think that people who fly simulators
> cannot be real pilots. It's human nature to try to rank people, always in
> such a way that the person doing the ranking turns out to merit a high rank,
> whereas other people turn out to merit a low rank.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

I've used MSFS off and on since I was a teenager, and I used it
extensively during my instrument training. It saved me a lot of money
for learning instrument procedures, and it was a great tool. But
nothing about MSFS *makes* one a REAL pilot. I'm a newbie pilot with
a fresh commercial certificate and a still wet instrument rating. But
from the little bit of trudging around the skys I've done, there's no
way to simulate the real thing. I've "flown" level D airlines sims
before, and they don't even compare to flying around in a real C172.

[Walt]

On Mar 30, 7:32 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Dudley Henriques writes:
> > There is also no reason put forth by the real world aviation community that
> > I have ever seen anyway, that denies anyone from becoming a pilot if that is
> > their choice.
>
> I hope your next medical goes well.
>
> --
Dudley was being pretty darn nice to you, my friend. But that's a
pretty snarky remark.

You really need to realize who have tried to be your friends on this
list.

I remember a few months ago when there was a thread on navigation, and
I explained how pressure pattern navigation works and how it could
complement celestial navigation (from my KC-135 days a few decades
ago). You actually seemed appreciative of the information, even though
it doesn't really apply to current-day technology.

Unfortunately, you don't show that very often. There is a LOT of
experience to draw from on this list, anything from GA to airlines to
military, and all are willing to help.

Oh, well. FWIW, I spent a couple of hours tonight flying a Piper
Archer in FS9 from BZN, up the Madison River valley, past Ennis, over
Virginia City to the Jefferson River valley, crash and dash at Dillon,
followed I-15 to Butte, then over Homestake Pass and back to BZN where
I landed safely. I had just downloaded a bunch of scenery enhancements
for FS9 and wanted to see what they looked like.

The scenery enhancements (FSGenesis) looks great, and it was fun
flying from the comfortable chair of my office, beer just an arm's
length away, and flying over places I fly in an Archer in real life.
Not the same, but still fun.

Take care, my friend.

--Walt
Bozeman

[Mike 'Flyin'8']

>It is highly unlikely that a person who never flew/piloted an aircraft
>before could land one successfully. There is a reason it takes about 10
>to 30 hours of instruction to land a single engine plane. It is not
>something that people can do naturally. There are also enough people
>flying small planes who have used "flight simulators" prior to taking
>lessons. I have never, ever heard of someone who could land a plane
>right from the start. It just does not happen.


Before I decided to go for the ticket to fly, I had played with the MS
Flight Sim extensively. At least hundreds of hours in the C172
landing, flying, everything. Anyway, I was flying with my CFI and we
went to Oceanside airport and he put me on a stabalized approcach and
said "your plane" and I tried as hard as I could, but it just was not
gonna happen...

I think that was a move on his part to show me that the Sim ain't no
airplane and to make me realize the stakes are much higher.

I would not say it is impossible for someone to get lucky on the first
time out, but it is just that... luck. For me, it took many many
hours to get the procedures down, and getting the flare is an art that
is a unique experience everytime. I have found the landing phase to
be different every time I am on short final. After a short 3 years of
flying, with several hundred landings, I still find landings to be
very challenging and the most rewarding part of flying.

Tonight I went out for my first night flight in over 2 years. Wow,
that is beautiful. I forgot how awesome it is at night. Went to San
Bernadino, Redlands, Banning and back to French Valley. I feel so
fortunate to be able to experience the gift of flight.

Night landings are a whole different story... I felt I was behind the
plane the whole time and always felt too low. Wierd. Bummer, I guess
I need more practice. :-)



Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

[Jack Allison]

Jim Burns wrote:
> Ok, now I know this guy is an imposter.
> You are NOT Montblack.
> The Montblack I know is older than 35 and while he might not say "YES" to
> everything he certainly doesn't say "NO" to anything. Obviously this rule
> doesn't apply to the "Real Mont-yep-sure-you betcha-of
> course-absolutely-affirmative-black".
>

Yep, way older than 35 and, right again, can't say "No". Obviously,
you're onto something Jim with this MontBlackImposter :-)



--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane

"To become a Jedi knight, you must master a single force. To become
a private pilot you must strive to master four of them"
- Rod Machado

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Roger[_4_]]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:41:10 -0400, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>Rule 1 for feeling good about yourself in this life is simply this;
>Don't ever allow someone else's problem to become your problem.
>Dudley Henriques

To that I can only say...Yup!

<snip>
>> My daughters classmates met someone outside of
>> school that knows me and when they got to talking
>> the kid mentioned that I was a pilot for an airline and
>> that person (an adult) corrected them and told them
>> that I was not a real pilot that I only fly TOY planes.
>>

Sounds like jealously or lack of knowledge to me.

I now have something like 1400 plus hours. I originally started to fly
in 1963, but had to take a break. Over all these years I've never had
an urge to fly for a commercial airline. I do like aerobatics and
would love to fly some of the stuff Dudley has flown.

This is one of thoes areas where size really doesn't matter. If you
fly a 747 for fun it must by definition be a toy. <:-))

OTOH regruadless of the size of the toy it takes a real pilot to fly
it.! Some of those toys are much more demanding to fly than the big
airliners.

Which reminds me. I wonder if that person would consider the guys
flying for "Air America" back in the 60's and 70's as not real pilots
flying toys.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:18:38 -0400, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea
Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote:

>"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
>> Oh but first we have this real cool rock collection we want you to see!
>> Really, they're all over the place. And we'll even let you take them home
>> with you! The best part is that they are FREE! :)
>>
>> Jim
>> Real farmer masquerading as a Real Pilot
>
>
>What you need is an Oshkosh style air show on your farm.
>Back in the olden days, they would send a tractor with a big flat bed
>trailer to wander around the grounds and the PA kept reminding people to
>bend over and pick up a rock and toss it on the trailer as it went by.
>They got a LOT of rocks picked up that way.
>(At least I assume that was just years ago - shouldn't be many rocks left by
>now - or am I mistaken?)
>
>But to get back on topic - I've run into people who insist that they want to
>fly "real" airplanes - not gliders...

What's this gliders thing. A few years back those were things we
towed behind C47s whos pilots were smart enough not to fly very far
over France.

Sail planes were what we now call gliders. <:-))

>
>No brains, no headaches.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On 30 Mar 2007 11:59:26 -0700, "Jay Honeck" >
wrote:

>> Once again, I'm not a real pilot.
>> Yesterday my daughter was confronted at school by
>> some (6th grade) classmates, they said her father was
>> not a real pilot.
>
>Oh, hell, the world is full of idiots.
>
>I've been told I'm not "really" a hotelier because we only have 28
>suites...
I've never even rented a room out so I guess I don't qualify there.
>
>I've been told I wasn't "really" a newspaperman because I worked the
>business side of it...

I'm a published author, but when I went back to college they didn't
like the way I wrote so I had to take English 11 and 112.
I offered to write an article for the daily paper as I had the
background and had written articles for magazines. The editor, with
out bothering to check told me that they didn't want articles written
the way they teach in college.

>
>I've been told that I'm not "really" a pilot because I'm not
>instrument rated...

I'm rated, but I don't fly the big iron.

>
>I've been told I don't ride "real" motorcycles cuz I don't ride a
>Harley...

I did .. for years and now have the bad back to prove it.
I'd rather have a good back.

>
>The list goes on and on. I learned a long time ago not to define my
>success (or failure) by what others think.

In the end only we can decide whether we are a success or failure.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On 30 Mar 2007 18:53:30 -0700, "Andrew Sarangan" >
wrote:

>
>Another similar comment I often encounter is that I am not a real
>doctor because I did not go to medical school.
>
OK, then answer me this. if we had any real doctors why do they say
they are practicing medicine? We practice to learn.

As a friend and doctor told me one time, once he's done practicing he
going to really charge for his time.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...

> On 30 Mar 2007 18:53:30 -0700, "Andrew Sarangan" > As a friend and doctor
> told me one time, once he's done practicing he
> going to really charge for his time.

I once had a non pilot charter pax ask me before the flight why we charged
so much money for our services. I told him he could make the flight one of
two ways. We could walk out to the airplane together, get in, and I'd do the
flying, or I could show him the airplane and he was welcome to try it by
himself.
Dudley

[Walt]

On Mar 31, 12:09 am, Roger > wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:41:10 -0400, "Dudley Henriques"
>
> > wrote:
> >Rule 1 for feeling good about yourself in this life is simply this;
> >Don't ever allow someone else's problem to become your problem.
> >Dudley Henriques
>
> To that I can only say...Yup!
>
> <snip>
>
> >> My daughters classmates met someone outside of
> >> school that knows me and when they got to talking
> >> the kid mentioned that I was a pilot for an airline and
> >> that person (an adult) corrected them and told them
> >> that I was not a real pilot that I only fly TOY planes.
>
> Sounds like jealously or lack of knowledge to me.
>
> I now have something like 1400 plus hours. I originally started to fly
> in 1963, but had to take a break. Over all these years I've never had
> an urge to fly for a commercial airline. I do like aerobatics and
> would love to fly some of the stuff Dudley has flown.
>
> This is one of thoes areas where size really doesn't matter. If you
> fly a 747 for fun it must by definition be a toy. <:-))
>
> OTOH regruadless of the size of the toy it takes a real pilot to fly
> it.! Some of those toys are much more demanding to fly than the big
> airliners.
>
> Which reminds me. I wonder if that person would consider the guys
> flying for "Air America" back in the 60's and 70's as not real pilots
> flying toys.
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

Heh. When I was flying AC119K's out of NKP we'd be flying up in Laos
on a lonely, dark night, looking for friendship, when what would come
into our IR screen just south of Ban Ban but a helicopter. Quick call
on HF, no, no friendlies in the area, cleared to engage.

Well. 150knots, all your guns are on one side of the airplane, and
you're attacking a helicopter that's really not much slower than you
are.

It's not often that a gunship gets involved in air-to-air combat, but
when it happens it's like getting the chance to have sex with (insert
your favorite fantasy here).

We zoomed by the helicopter with an advantage of at least 20 knots
(and, we were descending, so we had energy management on our side) put
two 7.62 miniguns online (the other two were jammed) and unleashed our
fury.

Left wing low, little bit of right rudder for spray effect, and we
made sure we missed'em.

After all, even if everyone hated (envied?) the Air America guys, they
had a great bar in Udorn.

<sigh>

What fun.

--Walt
Bozeman

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:41:10 -0400, "Dudley Henriques"
> > wrote:

> Which reminds me. I wonder if that person would consider the guys
> flying for "Air America" back in the 60's and 70's as not real pilots
> flying toys.

A Commercial Pilot friend of mine, Kenny Verdon, went over to fly with Air
America. We never heard from him again. He's still over there somewhere in
Laos under some wreckage in the mountains. We heard he was missing, but
little else came back down through the AA grape vine.
Tough work!
Dudley

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:
> Night landings are a whole different story... I felt I was behind the
> plane the whole time and always felt too low. Wierd. Bummer, I guess
> I need more practice. :-)


My VFR approaches are always high and steep by choice. At night, for the
reasons you mention, I fly the VASI just to be safe.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mxsmanic]

Tim writes:

> How is ego or humiliation involved at all?

It shouldn't be, but with pilots it often is. That's one of the problems with
aviation (it seems to afflict a lot of vehicle sports, though).

> It is highly unlikely that a person who never flew/piloted an aircraft
> before could land one successfully.

True, but only because such a person is unlikely to know anything about it.
However, a person who has flown in simulation _does_ know something about it,
and that changes the probabilities.

> There is a reason it takes about 10 to 30 hours of instruction to
> land a single engine plane.

Two to four days of practice, you mean?

It takes practice in a sim, too.

> There are also enough people
> flying small planes who have used "flight simulators" prior to taking
> lessons. I have never, ever heard of someone who could land a plane
> right from the start. It just does not happen.

I've heard of it, but it's rare. Obviously, such people have a natural talent
for flying. Most people don't have much of a natural talent, but anyone can
learn to fly, with or without talent. Only those with exceptional natural
ability would be able to fly without training.

Of course this applies to all sorts of activities, not just flying. And
conversely, flying is no exception to this rule.

> Granted, 10 to 20 hours is not a lot of time and just about anyone can
> be taught how to do it.

Yes.

> Given that, how would anyone get an ego issue from flying?

It is surprising how fragile the foundations of ego can be sometimes. The
more fragile they are, the more violently an individual will defend them.

> I am not sure where you get that crap about pilots having
> huge egos. Is this from real experience, or just from postings on the
> internet?

Both.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Sylvain writes:

> You made the choice of going there.. I was there in the first place (well,
> in the close neighborhood) and made the choice to move away from it. One
> of us flies, the other doesn't. We live with the consequences of our
> choices.

Flying didn't really play a part in my decision.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Dave Doe writes:

> That doesn't sound too bad - consider that in that you get 50+ hours of
> *real* flying.

Sorry, but flying in some junky tin can around the airfield is just not worth
$340 an hour to me.

The money could be better spent on simulation. At least then I get a lot more
bang for the buck.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Walt writes:

> Dudley was being pretty darn nice to you, my friend. But that's a
> pretty snarky remark.

Not for someone who is permanently scratched off the list after failing a
medical. I should think that people who are very much into flying, of all
people, would understand that.

> You really need to realize who have tried to be your friends on this
> list.

I'm not trying to make friends or enemies. I just discuss aviation. This is
not a social club.

> I remember a few months ago when there was a thread on navigation, and
> I explained how pressure pattern navigation works and how it could
> complement celestial navigation (from my KC-135 days a few decades
> ago). You actually seemed appreciative of the information, even though
> it doesn't really apply to current-day technology.

I'm always interested in learning things.

> Unfortunately, you don't show that very often. There is a LOT of
> experience to draw from on this list, anything from GA to airlines to
> military, and all are willing to help.

I've seen mostly abuse on this list. Fortunately, I have a great deal of
patience, and I continue to look for the occasional nuggets.

> Oh, well. FWIW, I spent a couple of hours tonight flying a Piper
> Archer in FS9 from BZN, up the Madison River valley, past Ennis, over
> Virginia City to the Jefferson River valley, crash and dash at Dillon,
> followed I-15 to Butte, then over Homestake Pass and back to BZN where
> I landed safely. I had just downloaded a bunch of scenery enhancements
> for FS9 and wanted to see what they looked like.
>
> The scenery enhancements (FSGenesis) looks great, and it was fun
> flying from the comfortable chair of my office, beer just an arm's
> length away, and flying over places I fly in an Archer in real life.
> Not the same, but still fun.

Like I said, it's a question of bang for the buck. A simulator may not be the
same as real life, but it costs hundreds of times less, too. You actually get
more for your money from simulation.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

wrxpilot writes:

> I've used MSFS off and on since I was a teenager, and I used it
> extensively during my instrument training. It saved me a lot of money
> for learning instrument procedures, and it was a great tool. But
> nothing about MSFS *makes* one a REAL pilot. I'm a newbie pilot with
> a fresh commercial certificate and a still wet instrument rating. But
> from the little bit of trudging around the skys I've done, there's no
> way to simulate the real thing. I've "flown" level D airlines sims
> before, and they don't even compare to flying around in a real C172.

Everyone knows, however, that if you haven't flown an airliner, you're not a
real pilot. A C172 doesn't count--or does it?

The "real" qualifier is a moving target, depending on whom you're talking to,
and who you are. I don't know that having a few hours in a C172 would count
much among 747 pilots. Everyone wants someone else to look down upon.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Dudley Henriques writes:

> I once had a non pilot charter pax ask me before the flight why we charged
> so much money for our services. I told him he could make the flight one of
> two ways. We could walk out to the airplane together, get in, and I'd do the
> flying, or I could show him the airplane and he was welcome to try it by
> himself.

The high salaries of some airline pilots are mostly high for historical
reasons. It's best not to look too closely at how much they are actually
worth.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Aluckyguess writes:

> Who cares what anyone thinks.
> When I meet an ATP I usually say oh you're a real pilot and we laugh.

A better distinction would be professional vs. amateur. An amateur pilot
flies when he wants to; a professional pilot flies when he is told to.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Tim writes:
>
>> How is ego or humiliation involved at all?
>
> It shouldn't be, but with pilots it often is. That's one of the
> problems with aviation (it seems to afflict a lot of vehicle sports,
> though).
>
>> It is highly unlikely that a person who never flew/piloted an
>> aircraft before could land one successfully.
>
> True, but only because such a person is unlikely to know anything
> about it. However, a person who has flown in simulation _does_ know
> something about it, and that changes the probabilities.


You donn't know ****.

Givne the choice, I'd give a bullfrog preference over you to take
instructions.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Sylvain writes:
>
>> You made the choice of going there.. I was there in the first place
>> (well, in the close neighborhood) and made the choice to move away
>> from it. One of us flies, the other doesn't. We live with the
>> consequences of our choices.
>
> Flying didn't really play a part in my decision.
>


We know.

bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Dave Doe writes:
>
>> That doesn't sound too bad - consider that in that you get 50+ hours
>> of *real* flying.
>
> Sorry, but flying in some junky tin can around the airfield is just
> not worth $340 an hour to me.
>
> The money could be better spent on simulation. At least then I get a
> lot more bang for the buck.
>

You're a halfwit. There's no doubt about it.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Walt writes:
>
>> Dudley was being pretty darn nice to you, my friend. But that's a
>> pretty snarky remark.
>
> Not for someone who is permanently scratched off the list after
> failing a medical. I should think that people who are very much into
> flying, of all people, would understand that.
>

You don't fly, you understand zilch.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> wrxpilot writes:
>
>> I've used MSFS off and on since I was a teenager, and I used it
>> extensively during my instrument training. It saved me a lot of
>> money for learning instrument procedures, and it was a great tool.
>> But nothing about MSFS *makes* one a REAL pilot. I'm a newbie pilot
>> with a fresh commercial certificate and a still wet instrument
>> rating. But from the little bit of trudging around the skys I've
>> done, there's no way to simulate the real thing. I've "flown" level
>> D airlines sims before, and they don't even compare to flying around
>> in a real C172.
>
> Everyone knows, however, that if you haven't flown an airliner, you're
> not a real pilot. A C172 doesn't count--or does it?


Yes, it does, fjukktard.

>
> The "real" qualifier is a moving target, depending on whom you're
> talking to, and who you are. I don't know that having a few hours in
> a C172 would count much among 747 pilots. Everyone wants someone else
> to look down upon.


Fortunate that you;'re here then, isn't it? No fighting over who has to
pull bottom rung.



Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Aluckyguess writes:
>
>> Who cares what anyone thinks.
>> When I meet an ATP I usually say oh you're a real pilot and we laugh.
>
> A better distinction would be professional vs. amateur. An amateur pilot
> flies when he wants to; a professional pilot flies when he is told to.
>

God you're an idiot.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
>> I once had a non pilot charter pax ask me before the flight why we
>> charged so much money for our services. I told him he could make the
>> flight one of two ways. We could walk out to the airplane together,
>> get in, and I'd do the flying, or I could show him the airplane and
>> he was welcome to try it by himself.
>
> The high salaries of some airline pilots are mostly high for
> historical reasons. It's best not to look too closely at how much
> they are actually worth.

Snort!

Not half what i'm paid, fjukkwit.

Or maybe you can figure out the great circle route to Oz using just a
pencil and paper? Or figure out your long when you only have Sirius to
look at? Or know what it means to the airplane when you're flying with a
20 knot tailwind on a 4 deg app. and the surface temp is lower than
where you are..

Didn't think so.



Bertie

[Tim]

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> Tim > wrote in :
>
>
>>Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>>
>>>Tim > wrote in news:gNfPh.13$zm5.4
>
> @newsfe12.lga:
>
>>>
>>>>Mxsmanic wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>David writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>So why is it the general public thinks that to be a real
>>>>>>pilot you have to aspire to become a scheduled airline captain?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>For much the same reason that some people think that people who fly
>>>>>simulators cannot be real pilots. It's human nature to try to rank
>>>>>people, always in such a way that the person doing the ranking turns
>>>>>out to merit a high rank, whereas other people turn out to merit a
>>>>>low rank.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No one said you could not be one. Just that you are not one. Big
>>>>difference.
>>>
>>>
>>>No, not so I said he couldn't be one. He can't
>>>
>>>
>>>Bertie
>>
>>
>>Yes, I didn;t see your posts until after.
>>I think you are incorrect. It is not that hard to do.
>
>
> Didn't say it was, just too hard for him.
>
> I would bet he
>
>>could do it if he took lessons.
>>
>>By the way, you are about as annoying as he is in your posts.
>
>
> Good. You don;t like me, killfile me. Otherwise, go **** yourself.
>

Loser.


>
> Bertie

[Tim]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
>
>>I once had a non pilot charter pax ask me before the flight why we charged
>>so much money for our services. I told him he could make the flight one of
>>two ways. We could walk out to the airplane together, get in, and I'd do the
>>flying, or I could show him the airplane and he was welcome to try it by
>>himself.
>
>
> The high salaries of some airline pilots are mostly high for historical
> reasons. It's best not to look too closely at how much they are actually
> worth.
>

Um, this comment was about a charter pilot. They don't make much typically.

The cost of charter flights is for fuel, insurance, debt service,
maintenance and salaries. (among other things) The salaries are not
that high in this case.

[BDS]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote

> Everyone knows, however, that if you haven't flown an airliner, you're not
a
> real pilot. A C172 doesn't count--or does it?
>
> The "real" qualifier is a moving target, depending on whom you're talking
to,
> and who you are. I don't know that having a few hours in a C172 would
count
> much among 747 pilots. Everyone wants someone else to look down upon.

You labor under a typical misconception for a non-pilot - you need to
actually talk with some of the large equipment pilots if you really think
that any of them look down on pilots who fly smaller aircraft. I know quite
a few, and not a single one of them feels this way. In fact, when it comes
to preference every one of them would rather be out flying a Piper Cub than
an airliner.

Would you rather be out driving a bus around, or a sports car? Never mind,
I think I know =your= answer...

BDS

[Whome?]

On 3/31/2007 4:59:39 AM, Mxsmanic wrote:
>Tim writes:
>
Major BS snip ---->

A lot of advice from someone who admits he has never actually piloted an
aircraft, and has a very well proven record of his inability to understand
human nature and constructively interact with adults.


Major BS snip ---->
>> There are also enough people
>> flying small planes who have used "flight simulators" prior to taking
>> lessons. I have never, ever heard of someone who could land a plane
>> right from the start. It just does not happen.
>
>I've heard of it, but it's rare. Obviously, such people have a natural talent
Major BS snip ---->
Prove it junior. You are talking to real pilots, we know better, we've been
there.

Go simulate a 100 inspection on your Baron or something.

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
>> The only limitation or limitations that I have ever seen in my 50 odd
>> years
>> in the flight instruction business that would prevent someone from
>> becoming
>> a pilot would be a medical, physical, or financial limitation concerning
>> the
>> person wishing to seek this goal.
>
> That's an extremely broad range of possible obstacles.
>
> I asked at the pilot shop today if it's true that getting even just a PPL
> (in
> France) costs around $17,000, and this was confirmed to me. With a per
> capita
> income of $30,100, only a handful of people in the country can ever hope
> to
> become pilots. Add that to the need for a medical and lots of time, and
> almost nobody can reach that goal.
>


Man..where is my violin music, you're breaking my heart......

IF you really were an IT professional

and

IF you really were old enough to take a flying lesson

and

IF you really had the desire to actually experience aviation


You would easily find it possible to get out and get at least 2 or 3 hours
of instruction in a topic for which you seem to have and overwhelming desire
to moderate an advice column.

But be ready to change instructors after each lesson. I can assure you, no
one would have the patience to fly with you a second time, if you could
avoid alienating them before you got to the aircraft the first time.

To be successful, you will first need to solo over at
sci.psychology.psychotherapy.

You might also try checking the prices somewere that the people don't KNOW
you. With your attitude I seriously doubt you could get a PPL in the US for
as little as $17,000.

[Whome?]

On 3/31/2007 5:04:24 AM, Mxsmanic wrote:
>Dave Doe writes:
>
>> That doesn't sound too bad - consider that in that you get 50+ hours of
>> *real* flying.
>
>Sorry, but flying in some junky tin can around the airfield is just not worth
>$340 an hour to me.
>
>The money could be better spent on simulation. At least then I get a lot more
>bang for the buck.
>

Well then here... the next time you simulate flying out for a $100 hamburger,
let me set you up with a date!!!

http://www.cybernooky.com/

No matter what line of BS you lay on one of these girls, she will just smile
and believe you.

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> wrxpilot writes:
>
>> I've used MSFS off and on since I was a teenager, and I used it
>> extensively during my instrument training. It saved me a lot of money
>> for learning instrument procedures, and it was a great tool. But
>> nothing about MSFS *makes* one a REAL pilot. I'm a newbie pilot with
>> a fresh commercial certificate and a still wet instrument rating. But
>> from the little bit of trudging around the skys I've done, there's no
>> way to simulate the real thing. I've "flown" level D airlines sims
>> before, and they don't even compare to flying around in a real C172.
>
> Everyone knows, however, that if you haven't flown an airliner, you're not
> a
> real pilot. A C172 doesn't count--or does it?
>
> The "real" qualifier is a moving target, depending on whom you're talking
> to,
> and who you are. I don't know that having a few hours in a C172 would
> count
> much among 747 pilots. Everyone wants someone else to look down upon.
>

No. The real qualifier is whether you are a socially challenged 12 year old,
or someone with and honest desire to learn from experienced individuals.

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Aluckyguess writes:
>
>> Who cares what anyone thinks.
>> When I meet an ATP I usually say oh you're a real pilot and we laugh.
>
> A better distinction would be professional vs. amateur. An amateur pilot
> flies when he wants to; a professional pilot flies when he is told to.
>

vs. a simulator only gamer, that just thinks he is a pilot, and never flys
at all.

[Mxsmanic]

Whome? writes:

> Well then here... the next time you simulate flying out for a $100 hamburger,
> let me set you up with a date!!!

I don't simulate $100 hamburgers or dates. In a simulator, you don't need an
excuse to fly, since there is no overhead or expense to flying.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Maxwell writes:

> vs. a simulator only gamer, that just thinks he is a pilot, and never flys
> at all.

Not really any different. As I've said, people always look for something that
distinguishes themselves from others, and then set it as a threshold for some
level of competence to which they wish to lay claim and from which they wish
to exclude others. The actual distinguishing feature shifts constantly so
that it always falls in just the right place, and in most cases it is very
trivial indeed from an objective standpoint.

--
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[Judah]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> The high salaries of some airline pilots are mostly high for historical
> reasons. It's best not to look too closely at how much they are
> actually worth.

Salaries in general have very little to do with how much the person earning
the salary is worth.

How much is a child's education worth?

What about protection from criminals? Or from fire?

How about emergency medical service to assist you with a medical emergency in
your own home and then transport you quickly to the nearest medical facility?

And yet Schoolteachers, Police, Firefighters, and Emergency Medical
Technicians are typically not high-paid service providers. Sometimes services
such as these are provided by volunteers who are not paid at all.

[Judah]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Walt writes:
>
>> Dudley was being pretty darn nice to you, my friend. But that's a
>> pretty snarky remark.
>
> Not for someone who is permanently scratched off the list after failing
> a medical. I should think that people who are very much into flying, of
> all people, would understand that.

Actually, there are avenues available that allow even people who have failed
a medical to pilot an aircraft. Ultralights, for example.

> This is not a social club.

No, it's a forum of individuals, most with similar interests, and many of
whom visit on a regular basis. In some cases, members know each other outside
the forum and even meet up at events.

To deny the social aspect of this forum is quite naive.

> I've seen mostly abuse on this list.

Certainly some of the abuse that you have observed is engendered by your
conitnued stabs at the pride pilots take in our unique achievement -
demonstrating the knowledge and ability required to pilot an aircraft safely
enough to receive certification from a government authority.

You demonstrate significant pride in your achievement of learning to pilot a
simulated aircraft, and of your knowledge about aviation. Do you expect
others on the forum to respect your pride when you minimize ours?

[Judah]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
>> The only limitation or limitations that I have ever seen in my 50 odd
>> years in the flight instruction business that would prevent someone
>> from becoming a pilot would be a medical, physical, or financial
>> limitation concerning the person wishing to seek this goal.
>
> That's an extremely broad range of possible obstacles.
>
> I asked at the pilot shop today if it's true that getting even just a
> PPL (in France) costs around $17,000, and this was confirmed to me.
> With a per capita income of $30,100, only a handful of people in the
> country can ever hope to become pilots. Add that to the need for a
> medical and lots of time, and almost nobody can reach that goal.

With a per-capita income of $30,100 it's a surprise that anyone can afford
a car, a house, or a vacation! Does France have a socialized health care
system? Because I can't imagine that they can afford private health
insurance at that income either.

The reality is that there are many things in the world that have the same
or similar obstacles to piloting.

I don't understand why you come to a pilots forum to try to announce your
judgement upon us. Do you think we should stop doing what we are doing
because some people cannot participate in our hobby.

Boating, Auto Racing, and numerous other hobbies have the same or similar
obstacles. Do you go to their forums to announce your judgements on them as
well?

Certain professions have obstacles as well. Do you go to the Legal and
Medical forums to complain because you don't have the resources necessary
to achieve those professions either?

[Mxsmanic]

Judah writes:

> With a per-capita income of $30,100 it's a surprise that anyone can afford
> a car, a house, or a vacation!

The standard of living is significantly lower in France than in the United
States. But that is generally true of most of Europe.

> Does France have a socialized health care system?

Yes, one of the best, all things considered. Of course, those with lots of
money can still get better health care than the average person, but
essentially everyone can get decent health care.

> Because I can't imagine that they can afford private health insurance
> at that income either.

There's a system of private insurance that covers anything that national
health care does not. However, since national health care covers quite a bit,
the cost of the additional insurance is very low, and many people simply do
without because the uncovered costs are usually modest. But here again, the
more money you have, the better the care you can receive.

> The reality is that there are many things in the world that have the same
> or similar obstacles to piloting.

Yes.

> I don't understand why you come to a pilots forum to try to announce your
> judgement upon us.

I don't. I come to discuss aviation.

> Do you think we should stop doing what we are doing because some people
> cannot participate in our hobby.

No, but you should stop pretending that it's an accessible hobby. It's a rich
man's hobby. That's one reason why the average age of private pilots is
around 47--it takes them most of their lives to save up the time and money to
get a license, unless they are very rich to begin with.

> Boating, Auto Racing, and numerous other hobbies have the same or similar
> obstacles.

Yes, they do. That's why most people don't have boats or racing cars.
They're lucky if they can afford to go to the movies or to Disneyland once in
a while.

> Do you go to their forums to announce your judgements on them as well?

I don't go to their newsgroups at all. I'm not interested in boats or cars.

> Certain professions have obstacles as well. Do you go to the Legal and
> Medical forums to complain because you don't have the resources necessary
> to achieve those professions either?

No. But I don't hear anyone saying that it's easy and cheap to become a
lawyer or doctor.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Judah writes:

> Actually, there are avenues available that allow even people who have failed
> a medical to pilot an aircraft. Ultralights, for example.

An ultralight is not an aircraft in my book. A simulator is closer to the
real thing.

> No, it's a forum of individuals, most with similar interests, and many of
> whom visit on a regular basis. In some cases, members know each other outside
> the forum and even meet up at events.

That's their problem, not mine. This is a worldwide newsgroup; the vast
majority of participants will never meet each other anywhere except here.

If you want social activity, there's always the Elks Club, which I suspect
would appeal to many pilots.

> To deny the social aspect of this forum is quite naive.

The social aspect of this forum is an illusion held by a very small minority
of its participants. Some people don't understand USENET.

> Certainly some of the abuse that you have observed is engendered by your
> conitnued stabs at the pride pilots take in our unique achievement -
> demonstrating the knowledge and ability required to pilot an aircraft safely
> enough to receive certification from a government authority.

I've made no stabs, and even if I had, there is nothing that justifies abuse.

People who abuse others have problems, as do people who experience pride.

Getting a license is more a matter of jumping through hoops than demonstrating
any ability or knowledge.

> You demonstrate significant pride in your achievement of learning to pilot a
> simulated aircraft, and of your knowledge about aviation.

Do I? Where?

> Do you expect others on the forum to respect your pride when you minimize ours?

I don't care what others respect. I don't have any pride, so that's not a
problem.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Judah writes:

> Salaries in general have very little to do with how much the person earning
> the salary is worth.

Yes, as the salaries of some airline captains prove.

> And yet Schoolteachers, Police, Firefighters, and Emergency Medical
> Technicians are typically not high-paid service providers. Sometimes services
> such as these are provided by volunteers who are not paid at all.

Maybe the 747 captains can donate to them.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Tim" > wrote in message
...
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> Dudley Henriques writes:
>>
>>
>>>I once had a non pilot charter pax ask me before the flight why we
>>>charged so much money for our services. I told him he could make the
>>>flight one of two ways. We could walk out to the airplane together, get
>>>in, and I'd do the flying, or I could show him the airplane and he was
>>>welcome to try it by himself.
>>
>>
>> The high salaries of some airline pilots are mostly high for historical
>> reasons. It's best not to look too closely at how much they are actually
>> worth.
>>
>
> Um, this comment was about a charter pilot. They don't make much
> typically.

What are you talking about? We know that only rich people can afford to fly,
right?

Why my nephew makes so much money on his two part time flying jobs (one
corporate and one charter - both right seat in King Air's) that he only
needs one other job (working the desk a FBO) to pay the rent.

It probably helps that his expenses are down - he's on 24 hour call for the
charter job since they mostly fly organ transplant teams so he doesn't spend
anything on beer anymore.

I know another guy that's been a flight instructor for 25-30 years - between
him and his wife, they make so much money that they actually own a house!!!

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Tim > wrote in :

> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>> Tim > wrote in news:CtkPh.84$zm5.61
@newsfe12.lga:
>>
>>
>>>Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>>>
>>>>Tim > wrote in news:gNfPh.13$zm5.4
>>
>> @newsfe12.lga:
>>
>>>>
>>>>>Mxsmanic wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>David writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So why is it the general public thinks that to be a real
>>>>>>>pilot you have to aspire to become a scheduled airline captain?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For much the same reason that some people think that people who
fly
>>>>>>simulators cannot be real pilots. It's human nature to try to
rank
>>>>>>people, always in such a way that the person doing the ranking
turns
>>>>>>out to merit a high rank, whereas other people turn out to merit a
>>>>>>low rank.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>No one said you could not be one. Just that you are not one. Big
>>>>>difference.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No, not so I said he couldn't be one. He can't
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Bertie
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, I didn;t see your posts until after.
>>>I think you are incorrect. It is not that hard to do.
>>
>>
>> Didn't say it was, just too hard for him.
>>
>> I would bet he
>>
>>>could do it if he took lessons.
>>>
>>>By the way, you are about as annoying as he is in your posts.
>>
>>
>> Good. You don;t like me, killfile me. Otherwise, go **** yourself.
>>
>
> Loser.

And yet you're still talking to me.

Hmm. Guess that makes you a loser's loser.



Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Whome? writes:
>
>> Well then here... the next time you simulate flying out for a $100
>> hamburger, let me set you up with a date!!!
>
> I don't simulate $100 hamburgers or dates. In a simulator, you don't
> need an excuse to fly, since there is no overhead or expense to
> flying.

That's because it's not flying, it's jerking off.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Judah writes:
>
>> Actually, there are avenues available that allow even people who have
>> failed a medical to pilot an aircraft. Ultralights, for example.
>
> An ultralight is not an aircraft in my book. A simulator is closer to
> the real thing.
>
>> No, it's a forum of individuals, most with similar interests, and
>> many of whom visit on a regular basis. In some cases, members know
>> each other outside the forum and even meet up at events.
>
> That's their problem, not mine. This is a worldwide newsgroup; the
> vast majority of participants will never meet each other anywhere
> except here.
>
> If you want social activity, there's always the Elks Club, which I
> suspect would appeal to many pilots.
>
>> To deny the social aspect of this forum is quite naive.
>
> The social aspect of this forum is an illusion held by a very small
> minority of its participants. Some people don't understand USENET.
>
>> Certainly some of the abuse that you have observed is engendered by
>> your conitnued stabs at the pride pilots take in our unique
>> achievement - demonstrating the knowledge and ability required to
>> pilot an aircraft safely enough to receive certification from a
>> government authority.
>
> I've made no stabs, and even if I had, there is nothing that justifies
> abuse.
>
> People who abuse others have problems, as do people who experience
> pride.

Another thing you're blessedly free of.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Maxwell writes:
>
>> vs. a simulator only gamer, that just thinks he is a pilot, and never
>> flys at all.
>
> Not really any different.

Completley different. You wouldn't have a hope in hell of getting anythign
I fly, light or heavy, on the ground in one piece.



Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Judah writes:
>
>> Salaries in general have very little to do with how much the person
>> earning the salary is worth.
>
> Yes, as the salaries of some airline captains prove.
>
>> And yet Schoolteachers, Police, Firefighters, and Emergency Medical
>> Technicians are typically not high-paid service providers. Sometimes
>> services such as these are provided by volunteers who are not paid at
>> all.
>
> Maybe the 747 captains can donate to them.

Again, you don't know ****.


Berti e

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

"BDS" > wrote in
:

> "Mxsmanic" > wrote
>
>> Everyone knows, however, that if you haven't flown an airliner,
>> you're not
> a
>> real pilot. A C172 doesn't count--or does it?
>>
>> The "real" qualifier is a moving target, depending on whom you're
>> talking
> to,
>> and who you are. I don't know that having a few hours in a C172
>> would
> count
>> much among 747 pilots. Everyone wants someone else to look down
>> upon.
>
> You labor under a typical misconception for a non-pilot - you need to
> actually talk with some of the large equipment pilots if you really
> think that any of them look down on pilots who fly smaller aircraft.
> I know quite a few, and not a single one of them feels this way. In
> fact, when it comes to preference every one of them would rather be
> out flying a Piper Cub than an airliner.


Well, not every one.. Just the real ones.
>
> Would you rather be out driving a bus around, or a sports car? Never
> mind, I think I know =your= answer...

Microsoft midtown madness!


Bertie

[Judah]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> No. But I don't hear anyone saying that it's easy and cheap to become a
> lawyer or doctor.

I don't hear anyone saying that about piloting either. To say that would be
as extreme as saying that one must be wealthy in order to fly. Neither is
accurate.

[Mxsmanic]

Judah writes:

> I don't hear anyone saying that about piloting either. To say that would be
> as extreme as saying that one must be wealthy in order to fly. Neither is
> accurate.

Many people here have said "you can fly if you really want to," the
implication being that if you are not willing to make heroic sacrifices to
fly, you don't deserve to be a pilot. If you aren't willing to take out a
second mortgage to pay for your lessons, you haven't got the Right Stuff. If
you aren't willing to undergo half a million dollars' worth of tests to prove
that you deserve a medical, you're not worthy to slip the surly bonds of
Earth. If you aren't willing to spend every available waking hour studying or
taking lessons, you're just not serious about flying. All of this
demonstrates a pretty extreme viewpoint to me.

I don't see why any hobby should be accessible only to the most extreme
fanatics. Why is it unacceptable to be moderately interested in aviation, and
yet still have a life outside of flying?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> writes:

> What are you talking about? We know that only rich people can afford to fly,
> right?

Ironically, some commercial pilots don't make enough to be able to fly on
their own for pleasure.

> Why my nephew makes so much money on his two part time flying jobs (one
> corporate and one charter - both right seat in King Air's) that he only
> needs one other job (working the desk a FBO) to pay the rent.

Does he fly for pleasure? If he's really serious about flying, he'll skip the
rent and pay to rent an airplane instead.

> I know another guy that's been a flight instructor for 25-30 years - between
> him and his wife, they make so much money that they actually own a house!!!

They could sell the house and use the money to buy an aging small aircraft ...
if they were really serious about flying, of course.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

> Again, you don't know ****.

True ... it's one of those rare subjects in which I take no interest at all.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Judah writes:
>
>> I don't hear anyone saying that about piloting either. To say that
>> would be as extreme as saying that one must be wealthy in order to
>> fly. Neither is accurate.
>
> Many people here have said "you can fly if you really want to,"

They obviously haven't met you.


Bertie

[Mxsmanic]

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

> Completley different. You wouldn't have a hope in hell of getting anythign
> I fly, light or heavy, on the ground in one piece.

Balsa wood is fragile.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Judah]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> An ultralight is not an aircraft in my book. A simulator is closer to
> the real thing.

An ultralight leaves the ground. A simulator does not.

>> To deny the social aspect of this forum is quite naive.
>
> The social aspect of this forum is an illusion held by a very small
> minority of its participants. Some people don't understand USENET.

So personal interaction and development of relationships between people on a
USENET forum doesn't count?

Some people don't understand society.


> I've made no stabs, and even if I had, there is nothing that justifies
> abuse.

I didn't say it was justified. I just pointed out the obvious reality.

> Getting a license is more a matter of jumping through hoops than
> demonstrating any ability or knowledge.

How do you know?

>> You demonstrate significant pride in your achievement of learning to
>> pilot a simulated aircraft, and of your knowledge about aviation.
>
> Do I? Where?

In your comments. For example this comment:
> An ultralight is not an aircraft in my book. A simulator is closer to
> the real thing.


> I don't care what others respect. I don't have any pride, so that's not
> a problem.

The two sentences above are contradictory. You hold so much pride that the
opinion and respect of the pilots on this group is beneath you.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>
>> Again, you don't know ****.
>
> True ... it's one of those rare subjects in which I take no interest
> at all.

Oh Brother. You spew enough of it.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>
>> Completley different. You wouldn't have a hope in hell of getting
>> anythign I fly, light or heavy, on the ground in one piece.
>
> Balsa wood is fragile.

No, it isn't, fjukkwit. And you couldn't fly a chuck glider properly
anyway.



Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> writes:
>
>> What are you talking about? We know that only rich people can afford
>> to fly, right?
>
> Ironically, some commercial pilots don't make enough to be able to fly
> on their own for pleasure.
>
>> Why my nephew makes so much money on his two part time flying jobs
>> (one corporate and one charter - both right seat in King Air's) that
>> he only needs one other job (working the desk a FBO) to pay the rent.
>
> Does he fly for pleasure? If he's really serious about flying, he'll
> skip the rent and pay to rent an airplane instead.
>
>> I know another guy that's been a flight instructor for 25-30 years -
>> between him and his wife, they make so much money that they actually
>> own a house!!!
>
> They could sell the house and use the money to buy an aging small
> aircraft ... if they were really serious about flying, of course.
>

Shows what you know fjukkwit.

BTW, France has the most active aviation scene in Europe. Gov subsidised
even.

Bet they woudl just love you..


Bertie

[Walt]

On Mar 31, 11:02 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Judah writes:
> > Actually, there are avenues available that allow even people who have failed
> > a medical to pilot an aircraft. Ultralights, for example.
>
> An ultralight is not an aircraft in my book. A simulator is closer to the
> real thing.

Oh, man.

I once flew in an ultralight one August evening near Decorah, Iowa (my
daughter was going to Luther College at the time). Flying at near
treetop level in perfectly still air, taking in the sights and smells
of the woods and fields (and having the occasional bug smash into the
face mask of my helmet) it was, in my book, as close to pure flight as
I've gotten. And, while I don't have nearly the experience of many
people on this list, I've flown stuff from KC-135's to gliders.

Nothing compares to real life, my friend.

--Walt
Bozeman

[Mxsmanic]

Judah writes:

> An ultralight leaves the ground. A simulator does not.

So does a hot-air balloon, but both would be a waste of time for me.

> So personal interaction and development of relationships between people on a
> USENET forum doesn't count?

Not really. People who use USENET for that need to get a life.

> Some people don't understand society.

Some people think every venue is a treehouse club.

> I didn't say it was justified. I just pointed out the obvious reality.

Some people abuse even in the absence of stabs.

One thing that's true about USENET is that it resembles alcohol in that it
causes people to show their true personalities. It turns out that there are a
lot of nasty people in the world, but most of them pretend to be nice in
face-to-face encounters. On USENET, they are less inhibited and one can see
how unpleasant they truly are. It's a bit sad.

> How do you know?

I've looked at the requirements.

> In your comments. For example this comment:
> > An ultralight is not an aircraft in my book. A simulator is closer to
> > the real thing.

What does that have to do with pride? I just don't see anything interesting
about an ultralight. Just being in the air by any means possible does not
interest me. Much of my interest in aviation is in aircraft and procedures,
not just having the wind in my hair.

> The two sentences above are contradictory. You hold so much pride that the
> opinion and respect of the pilots on this group is beneath you.

No, I just don't care. Trees don't care about opinions or respect, either,
but that doesn't mean that trees are proud.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Walt writes:

> I once flew in an ultralight one August evening near Decorah, Iowa (my
> daughter was going to Luther College at the time). Flying at near
> treetop level in perfectly still air, taking in the sights and smells
> of the woods and fields (and having the occasional bug smash into the
> face mask of my helmet) it was, in my book, as close to pure flight as
> I've gotten. And, while I don't have nearly the experience of many
> people on this list, I've flown stuff from KC-135's to gliders.

Good for you. But I happen to take quite an interest in instrument flight.
How many ultralights are certified for IFR? How many have an FMC and can
autoland?

It's fine if you like strong sensations, wind and weather, and so on. But not
everyone who is attracted to aviation shares those preferences.

> Nothing compares to real life, my friend.

A good simulation does.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Judah writes:
>
>> An ultralight leaves the ground. A simulator does not.
>
> So does a hot-air balloon, but both would be a waste of time for me.
>
>> So personal interaction and development of relationships between
>> people on a USENET forum doesn't count?
>
> Not really. People who use USENET for that need to get a life.
>
>> Some people don't understand society.
>
> Some people think every venue is a treehouse club.
>
>> I didn't say it was justified. I just pointed out the obvious
>> reality.
>
> Some people abuse even in the absence of stabs.
>
> One thing that's true about USENET is that it resembles alcohol in
> that it causes people to show their true personalities. It turns out
> that there are a lot of nasty people in the world, but most of them
> pretend to be nice in face-to-face encounters. On USENET, they are
> less inhibited and one can see how unpleasant they truly are. It's a
> bit sad.
>
>> How do you know?
>
> I've looked at the requirements.
>
>> In your comments. For example this comment:
>> > An ultralight is not an aircraft in my book. A simulator is closer
>> > to the real thing.
>
> What does that have to do with pride? I just don't see anything
> interesting about an ultralight. Just being in the air by any means
> possible does not interest me. Much of my interest in aviation is in
> aircraft and procedures, not just having the wind in my hair.
>
>> The two sentences above are contradictory. You hold so much pride
>> that the opinion and respect of the pilots on this group is beneath
>> you.
>
> No, I just don't care. Trees don't care about opinions or respect,
> either, but that doesn't mean that trees are proud.

And they have brains made of wood!

Bertie

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> writes:
>
>> What are you talking about? We know that only rich people can afford to
>> fly,
>> right?
>
> Ironically, some commercial pilots don't make enough to be able to fly on
> their own for pleasure.

I'm not aware of anyone in that catagory. Not to say that there isn't, but
would seem to be the exception.

>
>> Why my nephew makes so much money on his two part time flying jobs (one
>> corporate and one charter - both right seat in King Air's) that he only
>> needs one other job (working the desk a FBO) to pay the rent.
>
> Does he fly for pleasure?

Yes.

If he's really serious about flying, he'll skip the
> rent and pay to rent an airplane instead.
>
>> I know another guy that's been a flight instructor for 25-30 years -
>> between
>> him and his wife, they make so much money that they actually own a
>> house!!!
>
> They could sell the house and use the money to buy an aging small aircraft
> ...
> if they were really serious about flying, of course.
>

He already has his own airplane.


--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Judah]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Judah writes:
>
>> I don't hear anyone saying that about piloting either. To say that
>> would be as extreme as saying that one must be wealthy in order to fly.
>> Neither is accurate.

> Many people here have said "you can fly if you really want to," the
> implication being that if you are not willing to make heroic sacrifices
> to fly, you don't deserve to be a pilot. If you aren't willing to take
> out a second mortgage to pay for your lessons, you haven't got the Right
> Stuff. If you aren't willing to undergo half a million dollars' worth
> of tests to prove that you deserve a medical, you're not worthy to slip
> the surly bonds of Earth. If you aren't willing to spend every
> available waking hour studying or taking lessons, you're just not
> serious about flying. All of this demonstrates a pretty extreme
> viewpoint to me.

No one has implied anything of the sort. We simply have indicated that if one
were interested in learning to fly, one could do so even without being
wealthy. There is no heroic sacrifice required, and no pilot that I know
spent every waking hour studying or taking lessons. In fact most pilots learn
by taking at most a lesson or two a week, and usually far fewer.

You yourself posted an estimate that it would cost $17,000 to learn to fly.
In my local area, it's closer to $10,000, and I suspect one could do it in a
lower-cost neighborhood for as low as $6,000.

This cost would be spread out over a year or two even without financing
(since you typically pay as you go). With financing, it could be spread out
over a 5-7 year period. Even using your numbers, then, $17,000 over 60 months
at a 7% interest rate comes to $337/month. Using mine, $10,000 over 60 months
at 6% would be $193/month.

That's less than $7/day.

Certainly, these amounts are achievable for most people who might desire to
learn to fly, even someone who makes $30,000/yr. For someone who earns
$30,000/yr, there may be other priorities besides flying, and he may choose
to spend his money elsewhere. Certainly that is understandable.

But the belief that one must be wealthy in order to learn to fly is a falacy.
One must merely be willing to spend the money.

> I don't see why any hobby should be accessible only to the most extreme
> fanatics. Why is it unacceptable to be moderately interested in
> aviation, and yet still have a life outside of flying?

One need not be an extreme fanatic to access the hobby of flying. One may be
moderately interested, and choose to fly only when he has funds available. He
might start off by spending just $50 to take an introductory lesson - he
might even do the same at several flight schools within a reasonable distance
to explore different types of aircrafts and different types of training.
Then, if he was able to save a few hundred dollars, he might go and take a
lesson or two. Hopefully, he would be able to save up a few hundred dollars
more than once in his lifetime.

As I said before, it could cost as low as $7/day. I know people who spend
that smoking cigarrettes, and certainly the benefits of flying far outweigh
the benefits of cigarrettes.

[Judah]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Good for you. But I happen to take quite an interest in instrument
> flight. How many ultralights are certified for IFR? How many have an
> FMC and can autoland?

Then apparently, you don't take interest in flight.

You take interest in avionics.

[Maxwell]

"Walt" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Mar 31, 11:02 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>> Judah writes:
>> > Actually, there are avenues available that allow even people who have
>> > failed
>> > a medical to pilot an aircraft. Ultralights, for example.
>>
>> An ultralight is not an aircraft in my book. A simulator is closer to
>> the
>> real thing.
>
> Oh, man.
>
> I once flew in an ultralight one August evening near Decorah, Iowa (my
> daughter was going to Luther College at the time). Flying at near
> treetop level in perfectly still air, taking in the sights and smells
> of the woods and fields (and having the occasional bug smash into the
> face mask of my helmet) it was, in my book, as close to pure flight as
> I've gotten. And, while I don't have nearly the experience of many
> people on this list, I've flown stuff from KC-135's to gliders.
>
> Nothing compares to real life, my friend.
>

Can I ever relate to that. I can remember many cross country flights where
we often had to grab a little altitude from time to time, to cross power
lines and sometimes even fences. The lower and slower, the more real it
seems to become.

I have also had the opportunity on a few occasions to fly with the hawks. At
one of our hang gliding locations, it was not at all uncommon to either
follow or be followed, up and down the ridge line, by hawks often coming
within 50' of your wing tips.

But it doesn't take the fun out of GA either.

Thanks for refreshing the memories.

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Walt writes:
>
>> I once flew in an ultralight one August evening near Decorah, Iowa (my
>> daughter was going to Luther College at the time). Flying at near
>> treetop level in perfectly still air, taking in the sights and smells
>> of the woods and fields (and having the occasional bug smash into the
>> face mask of my helmet) it was, in my book, as close to pure flight as
>> I've gotten. And, while I don't have nearly the experience of many
>> people on this list, I've flown stuff from KC-135's to gliders.
>
> Good for you. But I happen to take quite an interest in instrument
> flight.
> How many ultralights are certified for IFR? How many have an FMC and can
> autoland?
>
> It's fine if you like strong sensations, wind and weather, and so on. But
> not
> everyone who is attracted to aviation shares those preferences.
>
>> Nothing compares to real life, my friend.
>
> A good simulation does.
>

Nothing could possible be narrow than your mind, with the exception of your
real life experiences.

[Judah]

> Not really. People who use USENET for that need to get a life.

As, by your definition, do Pen Pals, or people who talk on the telephone, or
people who send EMail.

> Some people think every venue is a treehouse club.

The He-Man Pilot-Hater's club!
"Don't drink the avgas! It's Spoiled!"

> What does that have to do with pride? I just don't see anything
> interesting about an ultralight. Just being in the air by any means
> possible does not interest me. Much of my interest in aviation is in
> aircraft and procedures, not just having the wind in my hair.

So why is your comment any different than the comments from pilots about
"real flying" and simulation? Because you didn't mean to say what you said,
but instead meant just that you are not interested in ultralights? Perhaps
that is what the pilots who said that simulation is not real flying meant
too.

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell writes:
>
>> vs. a simulator only gamer, that just thinks he is a pilot, and never
>> flys
>> at all.
>
> Not really any different. As I've said, people always look for something
> that
> distinguishes themselves from others, and then set it as a threshold for
> some
> level of competence to which they wish to lay claim and from which they
> wish
> to exclude others. The actual distinguishing feature shifts constantly so
> that it always falls in just the right place, and in most cases it is very
> trivial indeed from an objective standpoint.
>

What would you know about objectivity, you can't even get a grip on reality.

And who gives a **** want you said, you make it crystal clear you know
absolutly nothing about people and human behavior by your complete inability
to participate in a public forum.

And we have done nothing to exclude you, you exclude yourself by refusing
EVEN a single, read *ONE*, flying lesson. Just an empty and endless list of
EXCUSES as to why you can't.

You're just and endless river of childish BS.

[Mxsmanic]

Judah writes:

> As, by your definition, do Pen Pals, or people who talk on the telephone, or
> people who send EMail.

If those are their only social outlets, then yes, it does seem a bit
constraining.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Judah writes:

> Then apparently, you don't take interest in flight.
>
> You take interest in avionics.

I'm interested in both, and so both must be available. I wouldn't be
interested in flying an aircraft without a decent set of avionics, nor would I
be interested in just the avionics in an aircraft that stays on the ground.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Maxwell writes:

> Can I ever relate to that. I can remember many cross country flights where
> we often had to grab a little altitude from time to time, to cross power
> lines and sometimes even fences. The lower and slower, the more real it
> seems to become.

And the more it violates the FARs.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> writes:

> I'm not aware of anyone in that catagory. Not to say that there isn't, but
> would seem to be the exception.

If they are having trouble making the rent, as some are, they can't really
afford to fly.

> Yes.

With what money?

> He already has his own airplane.

How did he pay for it?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Walt]

On Mar 31, 1:12 pm, "Maxwell" > wrote:
> "Walt" > wrote in message
> > I once flew in an ultralight one August evening near Decorah, Iowa (my
> > daughter was going to Luther College at the time). Flying at near
> > treetop level in perfectly still air, taking in the sights and smells
> > of the woods and fields (and having the occasional bug smash into the
> > face mask of my helmet) it was, in my book, as close to pure flight as
> > I've gotten. And, while I don't have nearly the experience of many
> > people on this list, I've flown stuff from KC-135's to gliders.
>
> > Nothing compares to real life, my friend.
>
> Can I ever relate to that. I can remember many cross country flights where
> we often had to grab a little altitude from time to time, to cross power
> lines and sometimes even fences. The lower and slower, the more real it
> seems to become.
>
> I have also had the opportunity on a few occasions to fly with the hawks. At
> one of our hang gliding locations, it was not at all uncommon to either
> follow or be followed, up and down the ridge line, by hawks often coming
> within 50' of your wing tips.
>
> But it doesn't take the fun out of GA either.
>
> Thanks for refreshing the memories.

My pleasure. I fly a glider around the Bridger Mountains, which is one
of the biggest raptor breeding areas in the lower 48. I've spent many
a time trying desperately to work a thermal near Ross Peak, only to
look off my left wing and see a hawk flying formation with me, looking
me over, with a look in his eyes like, "You're hopeless. Not worth my
time". And then he'd start soaring above me and I'd be stuck still
working the same thermal.

OTOH, there was one time when I was flying a 1-26 out of Kelly Air
Park in Colorado, desperately looking for lift a few miles west of the
airport. I spotted five or six hawks working what looked like pretty
good lift not far from me, so I flew over there and managed to work a
pretty good thermal for a couple thousand feet. I thanked the hawks
profusely.

Then the thermal gave out and the hawks started flying further west. I
thought, "Hey, I'll follow the hawks and they'll find another thermal
for me".

Unfortunately they flew about a half-mile and landed in a pine tree to
rest. I wound up doing my one and only (up to present day) landout.

Not a big deal, although I had to buy the beer for the guys who came
to retrieve me and the 1-26. The rancher thought it was cool.

:>)

I agree about GA. Taking off, early morning, easy flight in the Archer
down to Driggs, Idaho for breakfast with ten or so other airplanes
tagging along, easy conversation on 122.75 while flying up the Madison
River valley to Raynolds Pass, the retired airline pilot in the
perfectly restored Waco complaining because he has to take a leak,
then landing in Driggs and having breakfast at the Warbirds Cafe.

Fun time. You really can't put a price on that sort of thing.

I could tell the story about flying my daughter and one of her friends
to Powell, Wyoming to visit another kid they met at summer camp in the
Beartooths, but you're probably already almost falling asleep reading
this.

Bottom line: because of the trip to Powell there are two 17-year-old
girls taking flying lessons. That's the essence of GA, IMHO.

Enough.
--Walt
Bozeman

[Maxwell]

"Judah" > wrote in message
.. .
> Mxsmanic > wrote in
> :
>
>> Judah writes:
>>
>>> I don't hear anyone saying that about piloting either. To say that
>>> would be as extreme as saying that one must be wealthy in order to fly.
>>> Neither is accurate.
>
>> Many people here have said "you can fly if you really want to," the
>> implication being that if you are not willing to make heroic sacrifices
>> to fly, you don't deserve to be a pilot. If you aren't willing to take
>> out a second mortgage to pay for your lessons, you haven't got the Right
>> Stuff. If you aren't willing to undergo half a million dollars' worth
>> of tests to prove that you deserve a medical, you're not worthy to slip
>> the surly bonds of Earth. If you aren't willing to spend every
>> available waking hour studying or taking lessons, you're just not
>> serious about flying. All of this demonstrates a pretty extreme
>> viewpoint to me.
>
> No one has implied anything of the sort. We simply have indicated that if
> one
> were interested in learning to fly, one could do so even without being
> wealthy. There is no heroic sacrifice required, and no pilot that I know
> spent every waking hour studying or taking lessons. In fact most pilots
> learn
> by taking at most a lesson or two a week, and usually far fewer.
>
> You yourself posted an estimate that it would cost $17,000 to learn to
> fly.
> In my local area, it's closer to $10,000, and I suspect one could do it in
> a
> lower-cost neighborhood for as low as $6,000.
>
> This cost would be spread out over a year or two even without financing
> (since you typically pay as you go). With financing, it could be spread
> out
> over a 5-7 year period. Even using your numbers, then, $17,000 over 60
> months
> at a 7% interest rate comes to $337/month. Using mine, $10,000 over 60
> months
> at 6% would be $193/month.
>
> That's less than $7/day.
>
> Certainly, these amounts are achievable for most people who might desire
> to
> learn to fly, even someone who makes $30,000/yr. For someone who earns
> $30,000/yr, there may be other priorities besides flying, and he may
> choose
> to spend his money elsewhere. Certainly that is understandable.
>
> But the belief that one must be wealthy in order to learn to fly is a
> falacy.
> One must merely be willing to spend the money.
>
>> I don't see why any hobby should be accessible only to the most extreme
>> fanatics. Why is it unacceptable to be moderately interested in
>> aviation, and yet still have a life outside of flying?
>
> One need not be an extreme fanatic to access the hobby of flying. One may
> be
> moderately interested, and choose to fly only when he has funds available.
> He
> might start off by spending just $50 to take an introductory lesson - he
> might even do the same at several flight schools within a reasonable
> distance
> to explore different types of aircrafts and different types of training.
> Then, if he was able to save a few hundred dollars, he might go and take a
> lesson or two. Hopefully, he would be able to save up a few hundred
> dollars
> more than once in his lifetime.
>
> As I said before, it could cost as low as $7/day. I know people who spend
> that smoking cigarrettes, and certainly the benefits of flying far
> outweigh
> the benefits of cigarrettes.
>

You're right of coarse, but it's not about money with MX. He could spring
for two or three lessons and more than quadrouple his grip on aviation. We
proabably just have to wait until his is old enough to take lessons, and
converse with adults.

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell writes:
>
>> Can I ever relate to that. I can remember many cross country flights
>> where
>> we often had to grab a little altitude from time to time, to cross power
>> lines and sometimes even fences. The lower and slower, the more real it
>> seems to become.
>
> And the more it violates the FARs.
>

Oh really, which ones?

[Maxwell]

"Walt" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Mar 31, 1:12 pm, "Maxwell" > wrote:
>> "Walt" > wrote in message
>> > I once flew in an ultralight one August evening near Decorah, Iowa (my
>> > daughter was going to Luther College at the time). Flying at near
>> > treetop level in perfectly still air, taking in the sights and smells
>> > of the woods and fields (and having the occasional bug smash into the
>> > face mask of my helmet) it was, in my book, as close to pure flight as
>> > I've gotten. And, while I don't have nearly the experience of many
>> > people on this list, I've flown stuff from KC-135's to gliders.
>>
>> > Nothing compares to real life, my friend.
>>
>> Can I ever relate to that. I can remember many cross country flights
>> where
>> we often had to grab a little altitude from time to time, to cross power
>> lines and sometimes even fences. The lower and slower, the more real it
>> seems to become.
>>
>> I have also had the opportunity on a few occasions to fly with the hawks.
>> At
>> one of our hang gliding locations, it was not at all uncommon to either
>> follow or be followed, up and down the ridge line, by hawks often coming
>> within 50' of your wing tips.
>>
>> But it doesn't take the fun out of GA either.
>>
>> Thanks for refreshing the memories.
>
> My pleasure. I fly a glider around the Bridger Mountains, which is one
> of the biggest raptor breeding areas in the lower 48. I've spent many
> a time trying desperately to work a thermal near Ross Peak, only to
> look off my left wing and see a hawk flying formation with me, looking
> me over, with a look in his eyes like, "You're hopeless. Not worth my
> time". And then he'd start soaring above me and I'd be stuck still
> working the same thermal.
>
> OTOH, there was one time when I was flying a 1-26 out of Kelly Air
> Park in Colorado, desperately looking for lift a few miles west of the
> airport. I spotted five or six hawks working what looked like pretty
> good lift not far from me, so I flew over there and managed to work a
> pretty good thermal for a couple thousand feet. I thanked the hawks
> profusely.
>
> Then the thermal gave out and the hawks started flying further west. I
> thought, "Hey, I'll follow the hawks and they'll find another thermal
> for me".
>
> Unfortunately they flew about a half-mile and landed in a pine tree to
> rest. I wound up doing my one and only (up to present day) landout.
>
> Not a big deal, although I had to buy the beer for the guys who came
> to retrieve me and the 1-26. The rancher thought it was cool.
>
> :>)
>
> I agree about GA. Taking off, early morning, easy flight in the Archer
> down to Driggs, Idaho for breakfast with ten or so other airplanes
> tagging along, easy conversation on 122.75 while flying up the Madison
> River valley to Raynolds Pass, the retired airline pilot in the
> perfectly restored Waco complaining because he has to take a leak,
> then landing in Driggs and having breakfast at the Warbirds Cafe.
>
> Fun time. You really can't put a price on that sort of thing.
>
> I could tell the story about flying my daughter and one of her friends
> to Powell, Wyoming to visit another kid they met at summer camp in the
> Beartooths, but you're probably already almost falling asleep reading
> this.
>
> Bottom line: because of the trip to Powell there are two 17-year-old
> girls taking flying lessons. That's the essence of GA, IMHO.
>
> Enough.
> --Walt
> Bozeman
>

No, I can relate. Many memories myself. It's all great stuff.

One of my favorites was featured in Hang Glider magazine back in the 70's. A
man by the name of Nealy was flying HGs around the Chattanoga TN area, and
was also a falconer. He had a pet hawk that rode on his own special perch
and would cast off and fly with him. Dropping back in occasionally to reset
next to Nealy on the HG.

[Mxsmanic]

Maxwell writes:

> Oh really, which ones?

91.119

--
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[george]

On Apr 1, 5:02 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Judah writes:
> > Actually, there are avenues available that allow even people who have failed
> > a medical to pilot an aircraft. Ultralights, for example.
>
> An ultralight is not an aircraft in my book. A simulator is closer to the
> real thing.

Oh ?
Since you have never flown the 'real' thing on what do you base that
claim.?
Ultralights and microlights are aircraft and require as much skill to
fly as any other aircraft

[d&tm]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley Henriques writes:
>
> > The only limitation or limitations that I have ever seen in my 50 odd
years
> > in the flight instruction business that would prevent someone from
becoming
> > a pilot would be a medical, physical, or financial limitation concerning
the
> > person wishing to seek this goal.
>
> That's an extremely broad range of possible obstacles.
>
> I asked at the pilot shop today if it's true that getting even just a PPL
(in
> France) costs around $17,000, and this was confirmed to me. With a per
capita
> income of $30,100, only a handful of people in the country can ever hope
to
> become pilots. Add that to the need for a medical and lots of time, and
> almost nobody can reach that goal.

Thats crap. How much does a car cost in France? I think there is more than
a handful of people who own cars. I have read of a kid in Australia who is
using his paperound money to learn to fly. I cant believe that anybody in
a Western Country like France could not learn to fly if they really had the
passion. The medicals are not that demanding. I would be surprised if more
than 5% of the population up to 50 years of age could not get a private
medical. Nobody who really wanted to fly would have a time excuse. They
would make time. Having said that, and reading between the lines and many
of your other posts and your website, your health is obviously an issue,
and I am sincerely sorry for you that is the case.
But even so there are ways that you can still take the controls of a real
aeroplane if you so desire.
terry

[Walt]

On Mar 31, 2:48 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Maxwell writes:
> > Oh really, which ones?
>
> 91.119
>

Heh.

--Walt
Bozeman

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell writes:
>
>> Oh really, which ones?
>
> 91.119
>

Which paragraph did I violate boy wonder, A, B, or C?

[BDS]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote

> I'm interested in both, and so both must be available. I wouldn't be
> interested in flying an aircraft without a decent set of avionics, nor
would I
> be interested in just the avionics in an aircraft that stays on the
ground.

Look out your window (yes, the real one) the next time you are "flying" your
"747". I think you're in for a surprise.

BDS

[donbutts]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>
>> Completley different. You wouldn't have a hope in hell of getting
>> anythign
>> I fly, light or heavy, on the ground in one piece.
>
> Balsa wood is fragile.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Didn't think we crossposted here !!

Is Bertie the Buyip from, Alt Aviation Disasters is still going after all
these years?? That guy abuses everybody and everything but he is coloUful..
he and Ladty Pilot.
Question: is Bertie an ex airbus pilot?? or is that B/S?

Butts

[Mxsmanic]

d&tm writes:

> Thats crap. How much does a car cost in France?

Somewhat less than the price of a PPL.

> I think there is more than a handful of people who own cars.

It depends on the area. In Paris, only about 20% of the population even has a
license, much less a car.

> I have read of a kid in Australia who is using his paperound money
> to learn to fly.

How does he pay for rent, groceries, insurance, utilities, taxes, and the
rest?

> I cant believe that anybody in
> a Western Country like France could not learn to fly if they really had the
> passion.

I suppose nothing is out of reach, if someone is "passionate" enough to, say,
sell a kidney. But the reality is that the price is so high that only the
most fanatic potential pilots are willing to sacrifice everything else in
order to get that license. But maybe that's the way other pilots want it--in
order to have a more exclusive club.

> The medicals are not that demanding.

I hope your next one goes well.

> I would be surprised if more than 5% of the population up to 50 years
> of age could not get a private medical.

The average age of pilots in the U.S. is around 47. I'd guess that about 25%
of them could not pass the medical exam.

> Nobody who really wanted to fly would have a time excuse. They
> would make time.

Yes, they could kill their spouse and children in order to free up more time,
and sell their own blood to raise money.

Just how much do you expect people to sacrifice in order to fly?

> Having said that, and reading between the lines and many
> of your other posts and your website, your health is obviously an issue,
> and I am sincerely sorry for you that is the case.

Everything is an issue for me: money, time, health, lots of things.

> But even so there are ways that you can still take the controls of a real
> aeroplane if you so desire.

It's easier to fly a simulator. And simulators get better all the time.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Maxwell writes:

> Which paragraph did I violate boy wonder, A, B, or C?

All three.

If you risk hitting a fence, you're too low to land safely in the event of an
emergency (paragraph (a)), and unless the fence is 500 feet high, you're too
low, period (paragraph (c) and/or (b)). Ditto for the power lines. However
you look at it, you violated the FARs. How exactly did you describe these
incidents in your ASRS reports?

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[Mxsmanic]

george writes:

> Since you have never flown the 'real' thing on what do you base that
> claim.?

The real thing has a full suite of avionics.

> Ultralights and microlights are aircraft and require as much skill to
> fly as any other aircraft

The same can be said of simulators. Funny how that dividing line can be set
just about anywhere, isn't it?

--
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[Mxsmanic]

donbutts writes:

> Question: is Bertie an ex airbus pilot?? or is that B/S?

It's impossible to know who is what on USENET. That's why I evaluate posts
based on their content, not on their authors.

--
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[Sylvain]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Everything is an issue for me: money, time, health, lots of things.

We all have our little problems, trust me. Some of us *choose* to
overcome them, some prefer to keep whining about them. Again, this
is a matter a choice. Don't expect however to garner any sympathy by
choosing the latter.

--Sylvain

ps my spelling checker insists on replace Mxsmanic by mismanage...

[Mxsmanic]

Sylvain writes:

> We all have our little problems, trust me.

I know that. But my problems are not little.

> Some of us *choose* to overcome them, some prefer to keep whining
> about them.

Some haven't experienced any big problems yet, so they think that happy
thoughts can solve everything.

> Don't expect however to garner any sympathy by choosing the latter.

Sympathy is of no use to me, unless I can resell it.

> my spelling checker insists on replace Mxsmanic by mismanage...

What's a spelling checker? I suggest you simply choose to overcome it.

--
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[Judah]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> If those are their only social outlets, then yes, it does seem a bit
> constraining.

Coming from someone who has authored nearly 100,000 postings on Usenet, that
does seem very sad.

[donbutts]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> donbutts writes:
>
>> Question: is Bertie an ex airbus pilot?? or is that B/S?
>
> It's impossible to know who is what on USENET. That's why I evaluate
> posts
> based on their content, not on their authors.
>
i was going by what I read back then from others.. not what he was saying

Butts

[Judah]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> The same can be said of simulators. Funny how that dividing line can be
> set just about anywhere, isn't it?

An aircraft is, by definition, a craft that travels through the air.

A simulator, by definition, is a device that simulates reality.

Simulators are not real aircraft. Ultralights are.

The line is quite clear.

[Mxsmanic]

Judah writes:

> Coming from someone who has authored nearly 100,000 postings on Usenet, that
> does seem very sad.

It's not the number of posts, it's the time required to compose them. And I'm
a very fast typist. It works out to an average of 10-15 minutes a day
overall. I know people who spend several times that amount smoking each day.

--
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[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Judah writes:
>
>> Coming from someone who has authored nearly 100,000 postings on Usenet,
>> that
>> does seem very sad.
>
> It's not the number of posts, it's the time required to compose them. And
> I'm
> a very fast typist. It works out to an average of 10-15 minutes a day
> overall. I know people who spend several times that amount smoking each
> day.
>

You?
Spend 15 minutes a day on the Usenet?

That's a real knee slapper.

[Mxsmanic]

Maxwell writes:

> You?
> Spend 15 minutes a day on the Usenet?

Less than that during the week, more during weekends and days off. It's a
break from flying as a way to spend what leisure time I have.

--
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[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell writes:
>
>> Which paragraph did I violate boy wonder, A, B, or C?
>
> All three.
>
> If you risk hitting a fence, you're too low to land safely in the event of
> an
> emergency (paragraph (a)), and unless the fence is 500 feet high, you're
> too
> low, period (paragraph (c) and/or (b)). Ditto for the power lines.
> However
> you look at it, you violated the FARs. How exactly did you describe these
> incidents in your ASRS reports?
>

My flight didn't violate any of them moron. Keep guessing and maybe you can
figure out why.

[Mxsmanic]

Maxwell writes:

> My flight didn't violate any of them moron. Keep guessing and maybe you can
> figure out why.

Maybe I should just ask the FAA how they feel about buzzing fences and power
lines, and which FARs it violates. What's your real name?

--
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[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> george writes:
>
>> Since you have never flown the 'real' thing on what do you base that
>> claim.?
>
> The real thing has a full suite of avionics.

Sez who, kid zoo?
Flying has nothing to do with avionics, they are simply tools used by pilots
and are never required to achieve flight.

Your sim doesn't have avionics, it just has a graphic representation of
them.


>
>> Ultralights and microlights are aircraft and require as much skill to
>> fly as any other aircraft
>
> The same can be said of simulators. Funny how that dividing line can be
> set
> just about anywhere, isn't it?
>

But the same can't be said about simulators, cuz you are still just humping
a desk.

[george]

On Apr 1, 10:09 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> george writes:
> > Since you have never flown the 'real' thing on what do you base that
> > claim.?
>
> The real thing has a full suite of avionics.

No. I have a DH82 rating.
Care to tell me that its not a -real- aeroplane
>
> > Ultralights and microlights are aircraft and require as much skill to
> > fly as any other aircraft
>
> The same can be said of simulators. Funny how that dividing line can be set
> just about anywhere, isn't it?

You are playing a game and pretending to fly.

[Jim Logajan]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> If you risk hitting a fence, you're too low to land safely in the
> event of an emergency (paragraph (a)), and unless the fence is 500
> feet high, you're too low, period (paragraph (c) and/or (b)). Ditto
> for the power lines. However you look at it, you violated the FARs.

Maxwell is correct when he states that he did not violate section 91.119 of
the FARs.

You're overlooking something important.

[Tim]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Maxwell writes:
>
>
>>My flight didn't violate any of them moron. Keep guessing and maybe you can
>>figure out why.
>
>
> Maybe I should just ask the FAA how they feel about buzzing fences and power
> lines, and which FARs it violates. What's your real name?
>


You have no clue.

[Tim]

Mxsmanic wrote:

>
>>Do you think we should stop doing what we are doing because some people
>>cannot participate in our hobby.
>
>
> No, but you should stop pretending that it's an accessible hobby. It's a rich
> man's hobby. That's one reason why the average age of private pilots is
> around 47--it takes them most of their lives to save up the time and money to
> get a license, unless they are very rich to begin with.
>
>

Bull****.
I know a number of pilots. There are quite a few with a lot of
expendable income, but many others who are just scraping by.

You really need to purge yourself of this anger and resentment to those
who choose to fly and make sacrifices to fly.

Buying a new car is also for rich people. I hear they cost $40,000 or
more. So how is it that people who make $30k per year can afford them?

Maybe instead of bitching and whining about how expensive stuff is, you
should get a job and contribute to society - then you might have some
money to spend.

Not much in this world is free. Stop moaning about the rich folks and
their toys. You are incorrect in your assumptions about those who fly
or own airplanes.

[Tim]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Judah writes:
>
>
>>I don't hear anyone saying that about piloting either. To say that would be
>>as extreme as saying that one must be wealthy in order to fly. Neither is
>>accurate.
>
>
> Many people here have said "you can fly if you really want to," the
> implication being that if you are not willing to make heroic sacrifices to
> fly, you don't deserve to be a pilot. If you aren't willing to take out a
> second mortgage to pay for your lessons, you haven't got the Right Stuff. If
> you aren't willing to undergo half a million dollars' worth of tests to prove
> that you deserve a medical, you're not worthy to slip the surly bonds of
> Earth. If you aren't willing to spend every available waking hour studying or
> taking lessons, you're just not serious about flying. All of this
> demonstrates a pretty extreme viewpoint to me.
>
> I don't see why any hobby should be accessible only to the most extreme
> fanatics. Why is it unacceptable to be moderately interested in aviation, and
> yet still have a life outside of flying?
>


You just refuse to understand. My last medical cost me something like
$150. Lessons cost only about $120 per hour. One need not make heroic
sacrifices. Getting a certificate is not that easy. The flying part is
pretty easy in the end, but the real test is in the commitment and
patience in following through. This is not because it is a trial by
fire or some silly ritual that you believe is inherent in flight
training. It is because of the nature of flying lessons and scheduling
and instructors.
The hard part is not the money - the hard part is sticking with through
the frustrations of cancellations due to weather, instructors, plane
maintenance and learning plateaus.

Not every waking hour needs to be devoted. I went to ground school for
36 hours to get signed off for the written test. Hardly that much time.
I think I finished up in about 70 to 80 hours - mostly due to a change
in location and time off from flying because my employer moved me across
the country.

Your silly notion about flying exclusivity is getting in your way of
understanding the way us GA pilots think and act.

I've never known a pilot to shun someone because of lack of experience
or a rating. Most of us welcome newcomers and interested people and
take friends, family and strangers on flights. The attitudes towards
you have nothing to do with a flying vs non flying delineation - and
more to do with your stubbornness to accept that you don;t know
everything and that you are misunderstanding quite a few things and that
your experience with MS flight sim is not even close to flying a real plane.

[Tim]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Judah writes:
>
>
>>Actually, there are avenues available that allow even people who have failed
>>a medical to pilot an aircraft. Ultralights, for example.
>
>
> An ultralight is not an aircraft in my book. A simulator is closer to the
> real thing.
>
>

Huh? It flies. It has wings and an engine. Closer to the real thing
than the real thing?

[Mxsmanic]

Tim writes:

> You just refuse to understand. My last medical cost me something like
> $150. Lessons cost only about $120 per hour. One need not make heroic
> sacrifices.

Amounts like $150 and $120 can be heroic if you don't earn much money.

> Getting a certificate is not that easy. The flying part is
> pretty easy in the end, but the real test is in the commitment and
> patience in following through. This is not because it is a trial by
> fire or some silly ritual that you believe is inherent in flight
> training. It is because of the nature of flying lessons and scheduling
> and instructors.

Actually, it does sound a lot like a hazing ritual.

> I've never known a pilot to shun someone because of lack of experience
> or a rating.

It's happening right here in this newsgroup.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Jim Logajan writes:

> You're overlooking something important.

What am I overlooking?

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Maxwell writes:

> Flying has nothing to do with avionics, they are simply tools used by pilots
> and are never required to achieve flight.

Flying has nothing to do with being in the air; it's just a matter of
procedures and controls.

> Your sim doesn't have avionics, it just has a graphic representation of
> them.

What does a G1000 have?

--
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[Stella Starr]

She's lucky you're not an otolaryngologist.
Why do you care what a 6th-grader says?

David wrote:
> Once again, I'm not a real pilot.
> Yesterday my daughter was confronted at school by
> some (6th grade) classmates, they said her father was
> not a real pilot.

[Roger[_4_]]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 03:04:37 -0400, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>
>"Roger" > wrote in message
...
>> On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:41:10 -0400, "Dudley Henriques"
>> > wrote:
>
>> Which reminds me. I wonder if that person would consider the guys
>> flying for "Air America" back in the 60's and 70's as not real pilots
>> flying toys.
>
>A Commercial Pilot friend of mine, Kenny Verdon, went over to fly with Air
>America. We never heard from him again. He's still over there somewhere in
>Laos under some wreckage in the mountains. We heard he was missing, but
>little else came back down through the AA grape vine.
>Tough work!
>Dudley

I don't think the movie "Air America" missed the mark by a lot.


>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Al Borowski]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> No, but you should stop pretending that it's an accessible hobby. It's a rich
> man's hobby. That's one reason why the average age of private pilots is
> around 47--it takes them most of their lives to save up the time and money to
> get a license, unless they are very rich to begin with.

Hey, neat. I didn't know I was rich! I could have sworn I was under
half that age, too.

I'm still not sure if you are a fantastic troll, or just have some
form of personality disorder. Maybe it's a combination of the two.

Al, who just came back from a quick flight.

[Jim Logajan]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Jim Logajan writes:
>
>> You're overlooking something important.
>
> What am I overlooking?

I think it is appropriate to allow Maxwell to explain, if he chooses to do
so. You did after all assert that he violated the law when you claimed the
flight he described was in violation of FAR section 91.119.

Even I, a non-pilot, recognize the mistake you made.

[Tim]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Tim writes:
>
>
>>You just refuse to understand. My last medical cost me something like
>>$150. Lessons cost only about $120 per hour. One need not make heroic
>>sacrifices.
>
>
> Amounts like $150 and $120 can be heroic if you don't earn much money.
>

Well, most people eventually make their way into the working world and
earn some money. When that happens they have money to spend. In the
case of welfare recipients and others who don't enter the workforce
there is not much hope.

I would hardly classify being able to spend an additional $300 per month
heroic. All that means is that one eats home made lunches at work each
day rather than going out to eat - or one foregoes a new car and drives
a beater for a while.

>
>>Getting a certificate is not that easy. The flying part is
>>pretty easy in the end, but the real test is in the commitment and
>>patience in following through. This is not because it is a trial by
>>fire or some silly ritual that you believe is inherent in flight
>>training. It is because of the nature of flying lessons and scheduling
>>and instructors.
>
>
> Actually, it does sound a lot like a hazing ritual.
>

That's ridiculous. You are implying that cancelling a lesson due to
illness, weather or plane mainteenance is done on purpose to haze
newbies? Unreal.

>
>>I've never known a pilot to shun someone because of lack of experience
>>or a rating.
>
>
> It's happening right here in this newsgroup.
>

No, the shunning I see is not due to lack of flying experience.

[Jim Stewart]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Once again, I'm not a real pilot.
>>Yesterday my daughter was confronted at school by
>>some (6th grade) classmates, they said her father was
>>not a real pilot.
>
>
> Oh, hell, the world is full of idiots.
>
> I've been told I'm not "really" a hotelier because we only have 28
> suites...
>
> I've been told I wasn't "really" a newspaperman because I worked the
> business side of it...
>
> I've been told that I'm not "really" a pilot because I'm not
> instrument rated...
>
> I've been told I don't ride "real" motorcycles cuz I don't ride a
> Harley...
>
> The list goes on and on. I learned a long time ago not to define my
> success (or failure) by what others think.

Also keep in mind that there are "real" pilots that
never have to get into a plane. River and harbor
pilots come to mind. Even a railway conductor assigned
to escort a different road's train over his road's tracks
is called a pilot.

Don't get me started about real engineers...

[Roger[_4_]]

On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 00:33:05 -0400, Tim >
wrote:

>Mxsmanic wrote:
>> Tim writes:
>>
>>
>>>You just refuse to understand. My last medical cost me something like
>>>$150. Lessons cost only about $120 per hour. One need not make heroic
>>>sacrifices.
>>
>>
>> Amounts like $150 and $120 can be heroic if you don't earn much money.
>>
>
>Well, most people eventually make their way into the working world and
>earn some money. When that happens they have money to spend. In the
>case of welfare recipients and others who don't enter the workforce
>there is not much hope.
>
>I would hardly classify being able to spend an additional $300 per month
>heroic. All that means is that one eats home made lunches at work each
>day rather than going out to eat - or one foregoes a new car and drives
>a beater for a while.

Lord, had I learned that lesson about 40 years earlier I'd be a
millionaire now.

Two cars ago I decided to drive 'em till the wheels fall off, but I
didn't count on an SUV taking them off my Trans Am for me.
Ah, well, he ended up in the hospital. I didn't get hurt except being
as punchy as having Chugged a 6-pack on an empty stomach. But, HE
BROKE MY TOY!
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Tim > wrote in
:

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> Tim writes:
>>
>>
>>>You just refuse to understand. My last medical cost me something
>>>like $150. Lessons cost only about $120 per hour. One need not make
>>>heroic sacrifices.
>>
>>
>> Amounts like $150 and $120 can be heroic if you don't earn much
>> money.
>>
>
> Well, most people eventually make their way into the working world and
> earn some money. When that happens they have money to spend. In the
> case of welfare recipients and others who don't enter the workforce
> there is not much hope.
>
> I would hardly classify being able to spend an additional $300 per
> month heroic. All that means is that one eats home made lunches at
> work each day rather than going out to eat - or one foregoes a new car
> and drives a beater for a while.
>
>>
>>>Getting a certificate is not that easy. The flying part is
>>>pretty easy in the end, but the real test is in the commitment and
>>>patience in following through. This is not because it is a trial by
>>>fire or some silly ritual that you believe is inherent in flight
>>>training. It is because of the nature of flying lessons and
>>>scheduling and instructors.
>>
>>
>> Actually, it does sound a lot like a hazing ritual.
>>
>
> That's ridiculous. You are implying that cancelling a lesson due to
> illness, weather or plane mainteenance is done on purpose to haze
> newbies? Unreal.
>
>>
>>>I've never known a pilot to shun someone because of lack of
>>>experience or a rating.
>>
>>
>> It's happening right here in this newsgroup.
>>
>
> No, the shunning I see is not due to lack of flying experience.

Nope, you're being shunned because you're an idiot. Nothing more a pilot
likes than to have his ass kissed by someone who wants to learn
somethign from him, and yet, noone wants to share with you.

hmmm. Why is that do you figger?

bertie

[Roger[_4_]]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:02:13 -0400, Tim >
wrote:

>Mxsmanic wrote:
>> Judah writes:
>>
>>
>>>Actually, there are avenues available that allow even people who have failed
>>>a medical to pilot an aircraft. Ultralights, for example.
>>
>>
>> An ultralight is not an aircraft in my book. A simulator is closer to the
>> real thing.
>>
>>
>
>Huh? It flies. It has wings and an engine. Closer to the real thing
>than the real thing?

It flies high enough and fast enough to get you killed. How much more
real can you get?


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

"donbutts" > wrote in news:460ee7b2$0
:

>
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
>> donbutts writes:
>>
>>> Question: is Bertie an ex airbus pilot?? or is that B/S?
>>
>> It's impossible to know who is what on USENET. That's why I evaluate
>> posts
>> based on their content, not on their authors.
>>
> i was going by what I read back then from others.. not what he was
saying
>

Doesn't matter really, but a little bit less of the "Ex" if you don';t
mind! I'm not over the hill yet!


Though I don't fly the 'bus anymore. Flying one of the other guy's right
now.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> writes:
>
>> I'm not aware of anyone in that catagory. Not to say that there
>> isn't, but would seem to be the exception.
>
> If they are having trouble making the rent, as some are, they can't
> really afford to fly.

Get a job then wannabe boi. that's how I paid to learn to fly.

OTOH, it would be a waste of time and money for oyu.

Bertie

[Walt]

On Mar 31, 9:26 pm, Roger > wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 03:04:37 -0400, "Dudley Henriques"
>
>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >"Roger" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:41:10 -0400, "Dudley Henriques"
> >> > wrote:
>
> >> Which reminds me. I wonder if that person would consider the guys
> >> flying for "Air America" back in the 60's and 70's as not real pilots
> >> flying toys.
>
> >A Commercial Pilot friend of mine, Kenny Verdon, went over to fly with Air
> >America. We never heard from him again. He's still over there somewhere in
> >Laos under some wreckage in the mountains. We heard he was missing, but
> >little else came back down through the AA grape vine.
> >Tough work!
> >Dudley
>
> I don't think the movie "Air America" missed the mark by a lot.
>
>
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

Dudley, what year was Kenny flying over Laos?

As I mentioned before, I think, I did a lot of flying in Laos in a
AC119K out of NKP in 1972. Some SAR stuff, and we actually flew
support for that mysterious "Laotian General" mentioned in the movie
Air America. By my count I flew 195 combat missions during my tour
there, but according to the Air Force I flew 159.

Not sure what happened to the 36 I "thought" I flew.

I'll have to say that we were kind of frustrated when we were flying
over Laos at the same time Air America was. There was no
communication, although we were basically doing the same kind of
support.

Ah, well. Like I said, Air America had a great bar in Udorn. Some
time, when I'm really drunk, I'll tell the story about when we had a
couple of days off and "rented" a taxi, filled the trunk full of beer,
and drove the damn thing from Nakhon Phanom to Udorn. 90 miles, took
us two days, but it was a hell of a road trip.

OKAY, I digress. Long story short, I flew a number of SAR missions in
Laos, but those were all military-related. I have a feeling the Air
America guys were on their own. We never really heard from them.

--Walt
Bozeman

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Maxwell writes:
>
>> Oh really, which ones?
>
> 91.119
>

Bwawhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwh!

God you're an idiot.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Maxwell writes:
>
>> You?
>> Spend 15 minutes a day on the Usenet?
>
> Less than that during the week, more during weekends and days off.
> It's a break from flying as a way to spend what leisure time I have.

Bull****.


bertie

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell writes:
>
>> You?
>> Spend 15 minutes a day on the Usenet?
>
> Less than that during the week, more during weekends and days off. It's a
> break from flying as a way to spend what leisure time I have.
>

We have a typical comment about comments like that, and you are full of it.

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell writes:
>
>> My flight didn't violate any of them moron. Keep guessing and maybe you
>> can
>> figure out why.
>
> Maybe I should just ask the FAA how they feel about buzzing fences and
> power
> lines, and which FARs it violates. What's your real name?
>

Naw, come on dipship, impress us with your reading and comprehension skills.
This is an easy one.

Besides, that FAA doesn't care, they know the anwer.

[ManhattanMan]

Maxwell wrote:
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Maxwell writes:
>>
>>> You?
>>> Spend 15 minutes a day on the Usenet?
>>
>> Less than that during the week, more during weekends and days off. It's a
>> break from flying as a way to spend what leisure time I have.
>>
>
> We have a typical comment about comments like that, and you are full
> of it.

If he's got blue eyes, he's a quart low......... :)

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell writes:
>
>> Flying has nothing to do with avionics, they are simply tools used by
>> pilots
>> and are never required to achieve flight.
>
> Flying has nothing to do with being in the air; it's just a matter of
> procedures and controls.

What a moron!!!!!!!! Flying has nothing to do with being in the air. Take
your meds and call us in the morning.

A classic example of your inability to grasp reality.


>
>> Your sim doesn't have avionics, it just has a graphic representation of
>> them.
>
> What does a G1000 have?
>

[Maxwell]

"ManhattanMan" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell wrote:
>> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Maxwell writes:
>>>
>>>> You?
>>>> Spend 15 minutes a day on the Usenet?
>>>
>>> Less than that during the week, more during weekends and days off. It's
>>> a break from flying as a way to spend what leisure time I have.
>>>
>>
>> We have a typical comment about comments like that, and you are full
>> of it.
>
> If he's got blue eyes, he's a quart low......... :)
>

Indeed!!!!

[Maxwell]

"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: Mxsmanic >
>
>>Flying has nothing to do with being in the air
>
> Congratulations!
> You've just moved to the top of the list of "Idiotic Usenet Statements"
> and stand a very good chance of being selected as the "Moron of the
> Month".
>

Agreed!!!!

That even tops his acusing the USAF of cowardace a few weeks ago when he was
unable to log on to their web site.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Judah writes:
>
>> Then apparently, you don't take interest in flight.
>>
>> You take interest in avionics.
>
> I'm interested in both, and so both must be available.



No you don't oyu lying sack of ****.

bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Maxwell writes:
>
>> Can I ever relate to that. I can remember many cross country flights
>> where we often had to grab a little altitude from time to time, to
>> cross power lines and sometimes even fences. The lower and slower,
>> the more real it seems to become.
>
> And the more it violates the FARs.
>

No it doesn't, you fjukkwit.

Besdies, you live in France, there are no FARs in France...


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Maxwell writes:
>
>> Which paragraph did I violate boy wonder, A, B, or C?
>
> All three.
>
> If you risk hitting a fence, you're too low to land safely in the
> event of an emergency (paragraph (a)), and unless the fence is 500
> feet high, you're too low, period (paragraph (c) and/or (b)).

Aparently you can't read as well as not being able to fly.


bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Jim Logajan writes:
>
>> You're overlooking something important.
>
> What am I overlooking?
>

Reality.

berteee.

[DR]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Much of my interest in aviation is in aircraft and procedures,
> not just having the wind in my hair.
>

When pilots talk of gas, they don't mean the gastric variety.

Cheers MC

[Maxwell]

"DR" > wrote in message
...
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>
>> Much of my interest in aviation is in aircraft and procedures,
>> not just having the wind in my hair.
>>
>
> When pilots talk of gas, they don't mean the gastric variety.
>

When MX has to make a gas stop in his simulator, he just takes Beano and
opens the window.

[d&tm]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> d&tm writes:
>
> > Thats crap. How much does a car cost in France?
>
> Somewhat less than the price of a PPL.
>
> > I think there is more than a handful of people who own cars.
>
> It depends on the area. In Paris, only about 20% of the population even
has a
> license, much less a car.
>
> > I have read of a kid in Australia who is using his paperound money
> > to learn to fly.
>
> How does he pay for rent, groceries, insurance, utilities, taxes, and the
> rest?
>
> > I cant believe that anybody in
> > a Western Country like France could not learn to fly if they really had
the
> > passion.
>
> I suppose nothing is out of reach, if someone is "passionate" enough to,
say,
> sell a kidney. But the reality is that the price is so high that only the
> most fanatic potential pilots are willing to sacrifice everything else in
> order to get that license. But maybe that's the way other pilots want
it--in
> order to have a more exclusive club.
>
> > The medicals are not that demanding.
>
> I hope your next one goes well.
>
> > I would be surprised if more than 5% of the population up to 50 years
> > of age could not get a private medical.
>
> The average age of pilots in the U.S. is around 47. I'd guess that about
25%
> of them could not pass the medical exam.

then how could they still be pilots and even so 75% is hardly exclusive as
you make out.

>
> > Nobody who really wanted to fly would have a time excuse. They
> > would make time.
>
> Yes, they could kill their spouse and children in order to free up more
time,
> and sell their own blood to raise money.

I think you have a very distorted understanding of how much time and money
it takes. I like many "weekend warriors" have a PPL and fly about 50 hours
per year. Hardly a huge time committment. I am also married with 2 kids and
have a responsible job as an industrial chemist, hardly the most highly paid
occupation. And no my kids dont suffer as a result of me spending 50 hours
away flying. In fact I think I set them a good example to go out and chase
their dreams instead of being like most people who waste their lives making
excuses for all the things they wanted to do.

There are many ways to make money, if you have the right attitude. I am no
expert on France but you supposedly came from the USA, the land of
opportunity where anyone can get rich. Not that you have to be especially
rich to fly a single engine plane. To fly 50 hours per year , it cost me
about $5000 US. Why did you move to France if you have to live such a
miserable existance there?

> Just how much do you expect people to sacrifice in order to fly?

I dont expect anything of other people. I just think you are making pretty
lame excuses for not getting off your butt and having a go. you are trying
to justify that lame attitude by telling us how difficult it is.

> > Having said that, and reading between the lines and many
> > of your other posts and your website, your health is obviously an
issue,
> > and I am sincerely sorry for you that is the case.
>
> Everything is an issue for me: money, time, health, lots of things.

Defeatist attitude. Why not just spill your guts and tell us what the
issues are and see if we cant actually help you. The fact that you can read
and write , you can obviously walk and talk ( I know about your Paris tour
guiding) says to me you could get in an airplane with an instructor and have
a go.

>
> > But even so there are ways that you can still take the controls of a
real
> > aeroplane if you so desire.
>
> It's easier to fly a simulator. And simulators get better all the time.

Of course it is easier, but then nothing much that is worth doing in this
world is easy. When you are lying on your death bed will you look back with
any sense of achievement that you "flew" a simulator?



> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

d&tm writes:

> I think you have a very distorted understanding of how much time and money
> it takes. I like many "weekend warriors" have a PPL and fly about 50 hours
> per year. Hardly a huge time committment.

Five thousand dollars for fifty hours? A hundred dollars per hour? It seems
to me a lot more economical to fly a sim for essentially zero dollars for as
many hours as I have free time. Sure, a real aircraft is _real_, but you have
to draw a line somewhere. Would you rather have 50 real hours than 500
simulated? How about 1 real hour versus 1000 simulated? At some points, the
sim becomes more cost-effective. I suppose the threshold varies depending on
exactly what you get out of flying. If most of what you enjoy is provided in
simulation as well as real life, there's not much reason to fly for real. If
you really must have things that come only with real flight (or only with very
expensive simulators), then I suppose you have to settle for the occasional
hour or two of flight in a real aircraft.

> I am also married with 2 kids and
> have a responsible job as an industrial chemist, hardly the most highly paid
> occupation. And no my kids dont suffer as a result of me spending 50 hours
> away flying.

If you have enough income to blow $5000 a year just on 50 hours of flight,
you're doing very well.

> In fact I think I set them a good example to go out and chase
> their dreams instead of being like most people who waste their lives making
> excuses for all the things they wanted to do.

Chasing one's dreams is a good idea, but you still have to think about the
return on investment.

> There are many ways to make money, if you have the right attitude. I am no
> expert on France but you supposedly came from the USA, the land of
> opportunity where anyone can get rich. Not that you have to be especially
> rich to fly a single engine plane. To fly 50 hours per year , it cost me
> about $5000 US. Why did you move to France if you have to live such a
> miserable existance there?

Paris is actually a very nice city in which to live. The _only_ disadvantage
is the cost of living, and it's not the most expensive major city in the
world. But when you have nothing, the COL obstacle is significant. If you
have money, I'd say there are few better cities in which to live in the world.

> I dont expect anything of other people. I just think you are making pretty
> lame excuses for not getting off your butt and having a go. you are trying
> to justify that lame attitude by telling us how difficult it is.

The price is too high. People here are saying that if I'm not willing to cut
off an arm to pay for flying, I'm not serious about it. That's completely
untrue. I just can't afford to dedicate such resources to it, and even if I
could, I do have a life outside of aviation, and spending every spare minute
and dime on flying would be a bit lopsided.

> Defeatist attitude. Why not just spill your guts and tell us what the
> issues are and see if we cant actually help you.

You can't help me, but thanks.

> The fact that you can read
> and write , you can obviously walk and talk ( I know about your Paris tour
> guiding) says to me you could get in an airplane with an instructor and have
> a go.

Right now I make ends meet only thanks to handouts from friends and relatives.
I can't really expect them to pay for flying lessons in addition to groceries,
can I?

> Of course it is easier, but then nothing much that is worth doing in this
> world is easy. When you are lying on your death bed will you look back with
> any sense of achievement that you "flew" a simulator?

It's not a sense of achievement, it's just something enjoyable to do, just
like flying a real airplane. I don't get anything out of either of these as
_goals_, I only profit from them as _activities_.

It's a bit like chess. I have one of the lowest ratings in the Internet Chess
Club, only a few places above the bottom (out of thousands of players). But
that has never bothered me because chess is just an enjoyable activity for me;
I don't care what my rating is, and I don't even care if I win or lose a game,
as long as it's fun. People who are highly competitive and goal-oriented
might think I'm wasting my time, but it works well for me.

In fact, if anything, I consider these "goals" to be discouraging obstacles.
Why should I fly a real plane when I have to jump through so many hoops and
spend so much money just to get a piece of paper that allows it, when I can do
practically the same thing with a simulator?

I don't understand why so many pilots are down on simulators. I guess the
only viewpoints they can understand are their own.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Sylvain]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> I don't understand why ...

There is something about *reality* and real life that many of us find
appealing, strangely enough. I know it has its snags, like you
can get hurt for real, it lacks reset, pause and fast-forward buttons,
but it still beats make-believe any day.

--Sylvain

[Mxsmanic]

Sylvain writes:

> There is something about *reality* and real life that many of us find
> appealing, strangely enough.

That doesn't explain the success of Hollywood, or literary fiction, or the
theater, or the wide popularity of many types of simulation, including flight
simulation, driving simulation, sport simulation, life simulation, you name
it. Clearly, a lot of people _do_ find simulation appealing.

> I know it has its snags, like you
> can get hurt for real, it lacks reset, pause and fast-forward buttons,
> but it still beats make-believe any day.

Yes, I'm sure that people who fly combat flight simulators would much rather
be shot at and killed for real.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[[email protected]]

David > wrote:
> Once again, I'm not a real pilot.

I think you're a real pilot. But for some odd reason you like to
sit inside a metal (or wood and fabric) box all the time.

> I normally invite those that tell me I'm not a real pilot to go up and
> fly around in the clouds with me and see if they can land the plane.

I've landed with the plane once and I didn't like it. I much prefer
getting out and doing the landing by myself. I try not to hassle the
airplane pilots too much, though, because as far as I know there aren't
any BASE objects that will get you 10,000 or more AGL. :)

Matt Roberds

[d&tm]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> d&tm writes:
>
> > I think you have a very distorted understanding of how much time and
money
> > it takes. I like many "weekend warriors" have a PPL and fly about 50
hours
> > per year. Hardly a huge time committment.
>
> Five thousand dollars for fifty hours? A hundred dollars per hour? It
seems
> to me a lot more economical to fly a sim for essentially zero dollars for
as
> many hours as I have free time. Sure, a real aircraft is _real_, but you
have
> to draw a line somewhere. Would you rather have 50 real hours than 500
> simulated? How about 1 real hour versus 1000 simulated?

ask any pilot on this group how many hours of simulation he would exchange
for their first solo flight. Its a no brainer.

At some points, the
> sim becomes more cost-effective. I suppose the threshold varies depending
on
> exactly what you get out of flying. If most of what you enjoy is provided
in
> simulation as well as real life, there's not much reason to fly for real.
If
> you really must have things that come only with real flight (or only with
very
> expensive simulators), then I suppose you have to settle for the
occasional
> hour or two of flight in a real aircraft.
>
> > I am also married with 2 kids and
> > have a responsible job as an industrial chemist, hardly the most highly
paid
> > occupation. And no my kids dont suffer as a result of me spending 50
hours
> > away flying.
>
> If you have enough income to blow $5000 a year just on 50 hours of flight,
> you're doing very well.

I am doing OK. Many , many people would blow a similar amount of money or
even more on cigarettes and alcohol in a year. Many others would spend more
than that amount on cars when they could drive a cheaper car. I dont smoke,
dont drink a lot, and at 46 years of age have only ever had 1 new car, even
though I drive about 50,000 km every year.

> > In fact I think I set them a good example to go out and chase
> > their dreams instead of being like most people who waste their lives
making
> > excuses for all the things they wanted to do.
>
> Chasing one's dreams is a good idea, but you still have to think about the
> return on investment.

Now dont tell me someone who relies on handouts for groceries know all about
investment as well? The best investment advice I ever got was spend less
than you earn. I have always done this no matter how much I earn.

> > There are many ways to make money, if you have the right attitude. I am
no
> > expert on France but you supposedly came from the USA, the land of
> > opportunity where anyone can get rich. Not that you have to be
especially
> > rich to fly a single engine plane. To fly 50 hours per year , it cost me
> > about $5000 US. Why did you move to France if you have to live such a
> > miserable existance there?
>
> Paris is actually a very nice city in which to live. The _only_
disadvantage
> is the cost of living, and it's not the most expensive major city in the
> world. But when you have nothing, the COL obstacle is significant. If
you
> have money, I'd say there are few better cities in which to live in the
world.

What ever the problems you have got , if you can spend so much time playing
a computer game or using Usenet then you could be doing something to earn
money. You talk about money as if it is simply something that some people
have and some dont , like good looks.
I know a quadraplegic who earns $500 an hour singing. I know many people
who wouldnt have half your intelligence who through their enterprise make
more money than I do.

> > I dont expect anything of other people. I just think you are making
pretty
> > lame excuses for not getting off your butt and having a go. you are
trying
> > to justify that lame attitude by telling us how difficult it is.
>
> The price is too high. People here are saying that if I'm not willing to
cut
> off an arm to pay for flying, I'm not serious about it. That's completely
> untrue. I just can't afford to dedicate such resources to it, and even if
I
> could, I do have a life outside of aviation, and spending every spare
minute
> and dime on flying would be a bit lopsided.

you obviously didnt read what I and others said. the time is insignificant
to be a private pilot. You clearly already do more studying about aviation
matters than almost all of the private pilots I know. Most of them learn
what they have to to pass the exam. As I said , I spend 50 hours a year
flying and perhaps another couple of hundred wishing I was flying .

> > Defeatist attitude. Why not just spill your guts and tell us what the
> > issues are and see if we cant actually help you.
>
> You can't help me, but thanks.
and how many times have you told people " you cant know that" when you have
been told you cant do something?


>
> > The fact that you can read
> > and write , you can obviously walk and talk ( I know about your Paris
tour
> > guiding) says to me you could get in an airplane with an instructor and
have
> > a go.
>
> Right now I make ends meet only thanks to handouts from friends and
relatives.
> I can't really expect them to pay for flying lessons in addition to
groceries,
> can I?
see above. You could get off your backside ( and I know you can because you
are happy to tramp around Paris and take pics and guide tourists) and find a
way to make a quid ( or a euro as the case may be). Heres a suggestion,
You can obviously read and write very well, you apparently teach English.
I know people who make good money proof reading, technical manuals and the
like. You can do it in your own home and your own time.


> > Of course it is easier, but then nothing much that is worth doing in
this
> > world is easy. When you are lying on your death bed will you look back
with
> > any sense of achievement that you "flew" a simulator?
>
> It's not a sense of achievement, it's just something enjoyable to do, just
> like flying a real airplane. I don't get anything out of either of these
as
> _goals_, I only profit from them as _activities_.

Do you have any goals or aspirations in life?

> It's a bit like chess. I have one of the lowest ratings in the Internet
Chess
> Club, only a few places above the bottom (out of thousands of players).
But
> that has never bothered me because chess is just an enjoyable activity for
me;
> I don't care what my rating is, and I don't even care if I win or lose a
game,
> as long as it's fun. People who are highly competitive and goal-oriented
> might think I'm wasting my time, but it works well for me.

if you rely on handouts to feed yourself . you are CLEARLY wasting your
time. How can you justify taking handouts from people who have presumably
worked hard to pay for these, while you sit back and enjoy playing computer
games? Again I accept you have some health problems of some sort but they
cant be that constraining if you are prepared to tramp around Paris all day
as a tour guide.


> In fact, if anything, I consider these "goals" to be discouraging
obstacles.
> Why should I fly a real plane when I have to jump through so many hoops
and
> spend so much money just to get a piece of paper that allows it, when I
can do
> practically the same thing with a simulator?
>
> I don't understand why so many pilots are down on simulators. I guess the
> only viewpoints they can understand are their own.

i am not down on simulators at all, I am sure many find them good fun. I
have been meaning to get one myself one of these days. I just havent got
around to it. I would see it as something to kill a bit of spare time or to
wind down at the end of the day. I wouldnt see it as something more
important than earning a living.




> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

d&tm writes:

> Now dont tell me someone who relies on handouts for groceries know all about
> investment as well?

Experience has taught me never to trust anyone. Nevertheless, I occasionally
slip and trust people when I shouldn't. Once such occasion concerned
investments. That's why I'm living on handouts today.

> What ever the problems you have got , if you can spend so much time playing
> a computer game or using Usenet then you could be doing something to earn
> money.

The former requires only me; the latter requires clients or employers.

> You talk about money as if it is simply something that some people
> have and some dont, like good looks.

Hardly, although it's easier to earn money in some environments than in
others.

> I know a quadraplegic who earns $500 an hour singing. I know many people
> who wouldnt have half your intelligence who through their enterprise make
> more money than I do.

They may be very extroverted, or simply dishonest.

> you obviously didnt read what I and others said. the time is insignificant
> to be a private pilot. You clearly already do more studying about aviation
> matters than almost all of the private pilots I know. Most of them learn
> what they have to to pass the exam. As I said , I spend 50 hours a year
> flying and perhaps another couple of hundred wishing I was flying.

It sounds like an unhappy existence, with so much wishing and so little
gratification.

Maybe I'm better off not having flown. Were I to try it and develop the
addiction that some here have, I'd be permanently unhappy and frustrated
because I'd never be able to get in as many flying hours as I might like.

I don't think I'd become addicted to it, though. In fact, I think there's
about a 50/50 chance that I wouldn't like it.

> I know people who make good money proof reading, technical manuals and the
> like. You can do it in your own home and your own time.

That requires clients. The difficulty is not in being able to do something,
but in being able to find others who are willing to pay to have it done. And
often it's difficult to convince others that you know what you are doing,
since most are prejudiced by credentialism and ego.

> Do you have any goals or aspirations in life?

I'd like to have as much money as possible. Other than that, nothing in
particular. Of course, there are many things that I would do if I could
afford to, including flying.

> if you rely on handouts to feed yourself . you are CLEARLY wasting your
> time. How can you justify taking handouts from people who have presumably
> worked hard to pay for these, while you sit back and enjoy playing computer
> games?

I don't spend my time playing games. I was only on VATSIM for two hours in
March, which is hardly what I'd call spending all my time playing games.

> Again I accept you have some health problems of some sort but they
> cant be that constraining if you are prepared to tramp around Paris all day
> as a tour guide.

You can be in good health and still fail a medical.

> i am not down on simulators at all, I am sure many find them good fun. I
> have been meaning to get one myself one of these days. I just havent got
> around to it. I would see it as something to kill a bit of spare time or to
> wind down at the end of the day. I wouldnt see it as something more
> important than earning a living.

Who said it was more important than earning a living? I'm just saying that
it's a satisfying and very low-cost alternative to flying for real.

It costs me nothing to fly a sim. For this reason, it is my main leisure
activity--anything else would cost money.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:07:13 -0400, David wrote:

> I normally invite those that tell me I'm not a real pilot to go up and fly
> around in the clouds with me and see if they can land the plane.

Heh.

One thing I've learned as a parent: *everything* is an educational
opportunity, even if it is about the low grade of humanity that manages to
reproduce in apparent violation of Darwin. Seriously: if she sees how you
can shrug off that type of comment, she's a powerful tool in her quiver
(to pointedly mix metaphors {8^).

- Andrew

[Jose]

> I think it is a bit pompous in this day and age for
> people mechanics to think they are more special than other professions.

A surgeon drives his car to the mechanic to have the clutch fixed, and
the mechanic says that basically, what the mechanic does and what the
surgeon does are the same. They open up the subject, they cut away what
needs removal, they put in what needs replacing, and they put it back
together. The surgeon says sure, but try doing it with the engine running.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[d&tm]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Another similar comment I often encounter is that I am not a real
> doctor because I did not go to medical school.
>
yeh , I ve copped that one too. I answer it back with real doctors have
doctorates. I dont actually ever use the title myself except when i phone
the medical doc at work and she answers as Dr. White. i always reply with
this is Dr. Mann. I think it is a bit pompous in this day and age for
people mechanics to think they are more special than other professions.
terry

[Mxsmanic]

d&tm writes:

> yeh , I ve copped that one too. I answer it back with real doctors have
> doctorates. I dont actually ever use the title myself except when i phone
> the medical doc at work and she answers as Dr. White. i always reply with
> this is Dr. Mann. I think it is a bit pompous in this day and age for
> people mechanics to think they are more special than other professions.

It's a bit pompous to put honorifics in front of one's name to begin with.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[d&tm]

"Jose" > wrote in message
. ..
> > I think it is a bit pompous in this day and age for
> > people mechanics to think they are more special than other professions.
>
> A surgeon drives his car to the mechanic to have the clutch fixed, and
> the mechanic says that basically, what the mechanic does and what the
> surgeon does are the same. They open up the subject, they cut away what
> needs removal, they put in what needs replacing, and they put it back
> together. The surgeon says sure, but try doing it with the engine
running.
>
Jose
I was being a bit facetious with the people mechanic bit, I do actually
respect what a medical doctor does , well some of them, but I also respect
what an engineer or a scientist etc does,
and dont see why the medic desereves a special title.
terry.

[Jose]

> I was being a bit facetious with the people mechanic bit

.... and I was taking the opportunity to insert a joke.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.