Experimental aircraft and towing

[Marc Ramsey]

Is it just my imagination, or has the FAA recently obfuscated the FARs
to the point where it is now legal to tow a glider with an aircraft that
has an experimental certificate (but not for hire). Things I noticed
today while poking around:

91.309 now permits towing unpowered ultralight "vehicles" along with
gliders (and, I assume, gliders that are light sport aircraft). 91.319
allows an experimental aircraft to tow a glider that is a light-sport
aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation or hire.

Is there a prohibition against towing non-LSA gliders with experimental
aircraft, as long as it is not for compensation or hire? Can a
light-sport aircraft tow a glider that is not an LSA for compensation or
hire?

Marc

[[email protected]]

On Apr 6, 7:44 pm, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> Is it just my imagination, or has the FAA recently obfuscated the FARs
> to the point where it is now legal to tow a glider with an aircraft that
> has an experimental certificate (but not for hire). Things I noticed
> today while poking around:
>
> 91.309 now permits towing unpowered ultralight "vehicles" along with
> gliders (and, I assume, gliders that are light sport aircraft). 91.319
> allows an experimental aircraft to tow a glider that is a light-sport
> aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation or hire.
>
> Is there a prohibition against towing non-LSA gliders with experimental
> aircraft, as long as it is not for compensation or hire? Can a
> light-sport aircraft tow a glider that is not an LSA for compensation or
> hire?
>
> Marc

I talked to an FAA inspector a couple of years ago when the issue of
towing of towing ultralight "vehicles" (the FAA doesn't want to call
them aircraft) with standard class aircraft came up. A carefull
reading of FARs could be interpreted as prohibiting the practice. This
was important with the introduction of the Sparrowhawk, an ultralight
glider "vehicle". The FAA inspector found no problem with the practice
and that the FAA did not intend to prohibit it, but did allow that
there was a potential issue with the FAR in question (91.309). That
now has been corrected.

A personal observation: you basically start with the right to whatever
you want and the FARs take those rights away, one by one. In other
words, do not expect to find an FAR that PERMITS a specific activity,
rather it is the lack of any FARs taking that right away that permit
you to do it. Of course, there are many FARs that permit certain
activities, but the principal still stands. That said, a call to your
local FSDO to clarify the issue isn't a bad idea (some of my friends
are very vocal about NEVER talking to the FAA, an idea that I don't
agree with).

Tom

[Bob C]

There are no FARs that prohibit towing (not for hire)
in an experimental aircraft. However, as of about
15 years ago, the boiler plate operating limitations
for experimental aircraft prohibit towing or sport
parachuting. The op limits recommended in the inspector's
handbook are only guidelines, and can be changed if
equivalent level of public safety can be shown. That
assumes you have an inspector willing to stick his
neck out and sign them. So, not impossible, but difficult.

Recent changes to part 91 are the result of the new
LSA rules and ultralight gliders like the Sparrowhawk.
I believe they do allow LSAs to tow other LSAs, but
I'm not up on the details of the new rules.

BC



At 19:26 11 April 2007, wrote:
>On Apr 6, 7:44 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:
>> Is it just my imagination, or has the FAA recently
>>obfuscated the FARs
>> to the point where it is now legal to tow a glider
>>with an aircraft that
>> has an experimental certificate (but not for hire).
>> Things I noticed
>> today while poking around:
>>
>> 91.309 now permits towing unpowered ultralight 'vehicles'
>>along with
>> gliders (and, I assume, gliders that are light sport
>>aircraft). 91.319
>> allows an experimental aircraft to tow a glider that
>>is a light-sport
>> aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation
>>or hire.
>>
>> Is there a prohibition against towing non-LSA gliders
>>with experimental
>> aircraft, as long as it is not for compensation or
>>hire? Can a
>> light-sport aircraft tow a glider that is not an LSA
>>for compensation or
>> hire?
>>
>> Marc
>
>I talked to an FAA inspector a couple of years ago
>when the issue of
>towing of towing ultralight 'vehicles' (the FAA doesn't
>want to call
>them aircraft) with standard class aircraft came up.
>A carefull
>reading of FARs could be interpreted as prohibiting
>the practice. This
>was important with the introduction of the Sparrowhawk,
>an ultralight
>glider 'vehicle'. The FAA inspector found no problem
>with the practice
>and that the FAA did not intend to prohibit it, but
>did allow that
>there was a potential issue with the FAR in question
>(91.309). That
>now has been corrected.
>
>A personal observation: you basically start with the
>right to whatever
>you want and the FARs take those rights away, one by
>one. In other
>words, do not expect to find an FAR that PERMITS a
>specific activity,
>rather it is the lack of any FARs taking that right
>away that permit
>you to do it. Of course, there are many FARs that permit
>certain
>activities, but the principal still stands. That said,
>a call to your
>local FSDO to clarify the issue isn't a bad idea (some
>of my friends
>are very vocal about NEVER talking to the FAA, an idea
>that I don't
>agree with).
>
>Tom
>
>
>

[Bob C]

There are no FARs that prohibit towing (not for hire)
in an experimental aircraft. However, as of about
15 years ago, the boiler plate operating limitations
for experimental aircraft prohibit towing or sport
parachuting. The op limits recommended in the inspector's
handbook are only guidelines, and can be changed if
equivalent level of public safety can be shown. That
assumes you have an inspector willing to stick his
neck out and sign them. So, not impossible, but difficult.

Recent changes to part 91 are the result of the new
LSA rules and ultralight gliders like the Sparrowhawk.
I believe they do allow LSAs to tow other LSAs, but
I'm not up on the details of the new rules.

BC



At 19:26 11 April 2007, wrote:
>On Apr 6, 7:44 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:
>> Is it just my imagination, or has the FAA recently
>>obfuscated the FARs
>> to the point where it is now legal to tow a glider
>>with an aircraft that
>> has an experimental certificate (but not for hire).
>> Things I noticed
>> today while poking around:
>>
>> 91.309 now permits towing unpowered ultralight 'vehicles'
>>along with
>> gliders (and, I assume, gliders that are light sport
>>aircraft). 91.319
>> allows an experimental aircraft to tow a glider that
>>is a light-sport
>> aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation
>>or hire.
>>
>> Is there a prohibition against towing non-LSA gliders
>>with experimental
>> aircraft, as long as it is not for compensation or
>>hire? Can a
>> light-sport aircraft tow a glider that is not an LSA
>>for compensation or
>> hire?
>>
>> Marc
>
>I talked to an FAA inspector a couple of years ago
>when the issue of
>towing of towing ultralight 'vehicles' (the FAA doesn't
>want to call
>them aircraft) with standard class aircraft came up.
>A carefull
>reading of FARs could be interpreted as prohibiting
>the practice. This
>was important with the introduction of the Sparrowhawk,
>an ultralight
>glider 'vehicle'. The FAA inspector found no problem
>with the practice
>and that the FAA did not intend to prohibit it, but
>did allow that
>there was a potential issue with the FAR in question
>(91.309). That
>now has been corrected.
>
>A personal observation: you basically start with the
>right to whatever
>you want and the FARs take those rights away, one by
>one. In other
>words, do not expect to find an FAR that PERMITS a
>specific activity,
>rather it is the lack of any FARs taking that right
>away that permit
>you to do it. Of course, there are many FARs that permit
>certain
>activities, but the principal still stands. That said,
>a call to your
>local FSDO to clarify the issue isn't a bad idea (some
>of my friends
>are very vocal about NEVER talking to the FAA, an idea
>that I don't
>agree with).
>
>Tom
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, April 7, 2007 at 2:44:37 PM UTC+12, Marc Ramsey wrote:
> Is it just my imagination, or has the FAA recently obfuscated the FARs
> to the point where it is now legal to tow a glider with an aircraft that
> has an experimental certificate (but not for hire). Things I noticed
> today while poking around:
>
> 91.309 now permits towing unpowered ultralight "vehicles" along with
> gliders (and, I assume, gliders that are light sport aircraft). 91.319
> allows an experimental aircraft to tow a glider that is a light-sport
> aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation or hire.
>
> Is there a prohibition against towing non-LSA gliders with experimental
> aircraft, as long as it is not for compensation or hire? Can a
> light-sport aircraft tow a glider that is not an LSA for compensation or
> hire?
>
> Marc

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, April 7, 2007 at 2:44:37 PM UTC+12, Marc Ramsey wrote:
> Is it just my imagination, or has the FAA recently obfuscated the FARs
> to the point where it is now legal to tow a glider with an aircraft that
> has an experimental certificate (but not for hire). Things I noticed
> today while poking around:
>
> 91.309 now permits towing unpowered ultralight "vehicles" along with
> gliders (and, I assume, gliders that are light sport aircraft). 91.319
> allows an experimental aircraft to tow a glider that is a light-sport
> aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation or hire.
>
> Is there a prohibition against towing non-LSA gliders with experimental
> aircraft, as long as it is not for compensation or hire? Can a
> light-sport aircraft tow a glider that is not an LSA for compensation or
> hire?
>
> Marc

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, April 7, 2007 at 2:44:37 PM UTC+12, Marc Ramsey wrote:
> Is it just my imagination, or has the FAA recently obfuscated the FARs
> to the point where it is now legal to tow a glider with an aircraft that
> has an experimental certificate (but not for hire). Things I noticed
> today while poking around:
>
> 91.309 now permits towing unpowered ultralight "vehicles" along with
> gliders (and, I assume, gliders that are light sport aircraft). 91.319
> allows an experimental aircraft to tow a glider that is a light-sport
> aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation or hire.
>
> Is there a prohibition against towing non-LSA gliders with experimental
> aircraft, as long as it is not for compensation or hire? Can a
> light-sport aircraft tow a glider that is not an LSA for compensation or
> hire?
>
> Marc

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, April 7, 2007 at 2:44:37 PM UTC+12, Marc Ramsey wrote:
> Is it just my imagination, or has the FAA recently obfuscated the FARs
> to the point where it is now legal to tow a glider with an aircraft that
> has an experimental certificate (but not for hire). Things I noticed
> today while poking around:
>
> 91.309 now permits towing unpowered ultralight "vehicles" along with
> gliders (and, I assume, gliders that are light sport aircraft). 91.319
> allows an experimental aircraft to tow a glider that is a light-sport
> aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation or hire.
>
> Is there a prohibition against towing non-LSA gliders with experimental
> aircraft, as long as it is not for compensation or hire? Can a
> light-sport aircraft tow a glider that is not an LSA for compensation or
> hire?
>
> Marc

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, April 7, 2007 at 2:44:37 PM UTC+12, Marc Ramsey wrote:
> Is it just my imagination, or has the FAA recently obfuscated the FARs
> to the point where it is now legal to tow a glider with an aircraft that
> has an experimental certificate (but not for hire). Things I noticed
> today while poking around:
>
> 91.309 now permits towing unpowered ultralight "vehicles" along with
> gliders (and, I assume, gliders that are light sport aircraft). 91.319
> allows an experimental aircraft to tow a glider that is a light-sport
> aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation or hire.
>
> Is there a prohibition against towing non-LSA gliders with experimental
> aircraft, as long as it is not for compensation or hire? Can a
> light-sport aircraft tow a glider that is not an LSA for compensation or
> hire?
>
> Marc