Oral exam place and questions

[Mxsmanic]

I've been reading about oral exams for a private pilot license (in the U.S.),
and two questions have come to mind.

Where does this exam take place? Is it in a classroom, or in a testing
center, or is it actually in the aircraft?

When you are asked math-type questions, are you expected to answer with just a
ballpark figure or an exact answer? In the latter case, can you use a
calculator, or pencil and paper, or must you do it in your head?

If I'm asked how long it will take to go 84 nm at 120 kts, I know that it's
about 40 minutes, but if an exact answer is required I don't see how I could
practically provide that without a calculator.

--
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[Ron Natalie]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Where does this exam take place? Is it in a classroom, or in a testing
> center, or is it actually in the aircraft?

It's usually done at the point of the checkride, inside the FBO in some
convenient place where you go over the paperwork and then outside in the
vicinity of the aircraft, typically the candidate being asked questions
while demonstrating the checkride.
>
> When you are asked math-type questions, are you expected to answer with just a
> ballpark figure or an exact answer? In the latter case, can you use a
> calculator, or pencil and paper, or must you do it in your head?

You're not typically asked math-type questions. Generally questions are
asked about aircraft systems and your preflight planning is examined.
In flight, you might be asked to compute some things as part of your
normal cross country navigation. Accuracy to what you can get on the
whizwheel is accceptable.
>
> If I'm asked how long it will take to go 84 nm at 120 kts, I know that it's
> about 40 minutes, but if an exact answer is required I don't see how I could
> practically provide that without a calculator.
>
Whizwheels were the classic, calculators are acceptable.

[Mxsmanic]

Ron Natalie writes:

> Whizwheels were the classic, calculators are acceptable.

A whizwheel being like the small E6-B I got at the pilot store? I still
haven't studied it very much, although I used to be very good with a slide
rule.

--
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[Luke Skywalker]

On Apr 9, 7:36 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> I've been reading about oral exams for a private pilot license (in the U.S.),
> and two questions have come to mind.
>
> Where does this exam take place? Is it in a classroom, or in a testing
> center, or is it actually in the aircraft?
>
> When you are asked math-type questions, are you expected to answer with just a
> ballpark figure or an exact answer? In the latter case, can you use a
> calculator, or pencil and paper, or must you do it in your head?
>
> If I'm asked how long it will take to go 84 nm at 120 kts, I know that it's
> about 40 minutes, but if an exact answer is required I don't see how I could
> practically provide that without a calculator.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

It is actually done at a place of the examiner (and usually the
examinee) mutually agreed upon location..

Just speaking for myself...when I do non airline exams I like to have
a quiet place, if possible with a big picture of the panel (if not the
airplane manual with a sample picture) and access to some wx
information...if not I carry my own and give it to the candidate as a
part of a X country planning excersize.

In your hypothetical if I gave you a question like the one you possed
and you gave me the "ball park" answer my next question "might" be,
"if you wanted a more precise one how would you figure it out?" and
then that would go to the "computing" device...I would probably feel
it necessary (grin) to show you how to use an E6B if all you have is
an electronic one (kind of a whiz bang thing)...

I"ve done "part" of the oral in and around an airplane before...but I
dont like to. The environment is not controlled etc... It usually
doesnt do what I am trying to do and that is put the applicant at
"ease"...

Robert

[Mxsmanic]

Luke Skywalker writes:

> In your hypothetical if I gave you a question like the one you possed
> and you gave me the "ball park" answer my next question "might" be,
> "if you wanted a more precise one how would you figure it out?" and
> then that would go to the "computing" device...I would probably feel
> it necessary (grin) to show you how to use an E6B if all you have is
> an electronic one (kind of a whiz bang thing)...

I don't think that would be a problem. The ASA E6-B I bought is inexpensively
made, though, and it's really hard to turn the wheels; it would be a pain to
actually have to fumble with it in a cockpit.

A nice Pickett steel or bamboo circular slide rule would be ideal--one of the
rare situations in which a slide rule is probably superior to a calculator (no
electricity, extremely fast and easy to use, more than accurate enough for its
purpose, good at simplifying specific problems). Alas! Nobody seems to make
slide rules any more. I saw a few other circular slide rules at the pilot
store, but they all looked like the same thing in different materials,
although I didn't look that closely.

> I"ve done "part" of the oral in and around an airplane before...but I
> dont like to. The environment is not controlled etc... It usually
> doesnt do what I am trying to do and that is put the applicant at
> "ease"...

The only time I'm at ease during an exam is if I don't care if I pass.

--
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[Sylvain]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Ron Natalie writes:
>
>> Whizwheels were the classic, calculators are acceptable.
>
> A whizwheel being like the small E6-B I got at the pilot store?

that's the one. Though whizwheel is a more generic term for
circular slide rules and can also refer to different variants
like the Jeppesen CR-5 (the main difference is how the wind
triangle is computed on the backside)

--Sylvain

[TheSmokingGnu]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Where does this exam take place?

My exam took place in the flight school building, in one of the
ready-room alcoves. We also took a brief walk outside, and spent some
time with the aircraft before preflight.

> When you are asked math-type questions, are you expected to answer with just a
> ballpark figure or an exact answer? In the latter case, can you use a
> calculator, or pencil and paper, or must you do it in your head?

Precise. And yes, calculators are allowed, but you must demonstrate your
ability using any method. Generally, though, math questions aren't
asked; it's a lot more theory, rules, specifications, that sort of
thing. The "math" portions are taken care of in the flight plan you're
asked to develop.

> If I'm asked how long it will take to go 84 nm at 120 kts, I know that it's
> about 40 minutes, but if an exact answer is required I don't see how I could
> practically provide that without a calculator.

I could be quite cruel here, seeing as you're just a name on the screen.
However, I will be benevolent.

Long division is your answer. Alternately, it pays to invest in a book
on pilot math.

120 kts is 2 nm/min (120/60), so the precise answer is 42 minutes
(84/2). Decimal minutes are also acceptable in remainders (assuming you
can deal with converting them back to HMS format, to read on clocks).

TheSmokingGnu

Edit: crossposted, corrected.

[Luke Skywalker]

On Apr 9, 8:52 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Luke Skywalker writes:
> > In your hypothetical if I gave you a question like the one you possed
> > and you gave me the "ball park" answer my next question "might" be,
> > "if you wanted a more precise one how would you figure it out?" and
> > then that would go to the "computing" device...I would probably feel
> > it necessary (grin) to show you how to use an E6B if all you have is
> > an electronic one (kind of a whiz bang thing)...
>
> I don't think that would be a problem. The ASA E6-B I bought is inexpensively
> made, though, and it's really hard to turn the wheels; it would be a pain to
> actually have to fumble with it in a cockpit.
>
> A nice Pickett steel or bamboo circular slide rule would be ideal--one of the
> rare situations in which a slide rule is probably superior to a calculator (no
> electricity, extremely fast and easy to use, more than accurate enough for its
> purpose, good at simplifying specific problems). Alas! Nobody seems to make
> slide rules any more. I saw a few other circular slide rules at the pilot
> store, but they all looked like the same thing in different materials,
> although I didn't look that closely.
>
> > I"ve done "part" of the oral in and around an airplane before...but I
> > dont like to. The environment is not controlled etc... It usually
> > doesnt do what I am trying to do and that is put the applicant at
> > "ease"...
>
> The only time I'm at ease during an exam is if I don't care if I pass.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

heh...

I would share three things with you.

First if your instructor sends you then most examiners assume that you
are going to pass...you might not buy this but your instructor has as
much on the line as 'you' do in an exam and few just toss a hail mary
pass...

Second what most examiners are looking for (there are some turds but
most are not) is competence and a good grasp of the subject. AS I
tell people "the only one who gives a perfect checkride is me" (humor
is good) and I am not looking for perfection but competence...I dont
want to see to many mistakes but I certianly woudl rather see someone
who made a mistake or answered something wrong and recognized it do a
bit of self correcting...then simply "hope" I didnt catch it or dont
care.

Third part of that look for competence is that the student "believes"
that they are competent and acts that way. I understand what you mean
by "at ease" so dont take this wrong...but my guard gets up if I see
someone who is not so confident in their ability to pass...There is an
old saying "people who think that they are going to fail usually
do"...

If your instructor sends you then sit back, do your best, learn from
it and you will be proud of the result. Dont think that the task is
all that difficult...I made it!

Robert

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic > wrote:

<snip>

> A nice Pickett steel or bamboo circular slide rule would be ideal--one of the
> rare situations in which a slide rule is probably superior to a calculator (no
> electricity, extremely fast and easy to use, more than accurate enough for its
> purpose, good at simplifying specific problems). Alas! Nobody seems to make
> slide rules any more. I saw a few other circular slide rules at the pilot
> store, but they all looked like the same thing in different materials,
> although I didn't look that closely.

An E6 is nothing more than a specialized circular slide rule.

Back before calculators, when slide rules were common, there were
specialized slide rules for all sorts of things.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Mxsmanic]

TheSmokingGnu writes:

> 120 kts is 2 nm/min (120/60), so the precise answer is 42 minutes
> (84/2).

I had not thought of that, although I suppose I would with some reflection.
I'm sure I would not during an exam.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Apr 9, 5:54 pm, Ron Natalie > wrote:
> Mxsmanic wrote:
> > Where does this exam take place? Is it in a classroom, or in a testing
> > center, or is it actually in the aircraft?
>
> It's usually done at the point of the checkride, inside the FBO in some
> convenient place where you go over the paperwork and then outside in the
> vicinity of the aircraft, typically the candidate being asked questions
> while demonstrating the checkride.
>
>
>
> > When you are asked math-type questions, are you expected to answer with just a
> > ballpark figure or an exact answer? In the latter case, can you use a
> > calculator, or pencil and paper, or must you do it in your head?
>
> You're not typically asked math-type questions. Generally questions are
> asked about aircraft systems and your preflight planning is examined.
> In flight, you might be asked to compute some things as part of your
> normal cross country navigation. Accuracy to what you can get on the
> whizwheel is accceptable.
>
> > If I'm asked how long it will take to go 84 nm at 120 kts, I know that it's
> > about 40 minutes, but if an exact answer is required I don't see how I could
> > practically provide that without a calculator.
>
> Whizwheels were the classic, calculators are acceptable.

Traditionally the students were told what calculations to do ahead of
time and would arrive with a flight plan, W&B, performance, balanced
field, etc asked for by the DE the night before the ride. However, the
FSDO is now asking the examiners to throw those out and make the
student do another one right there to ensure the CFI isn't doing it
for them. Usually the DE will ask the student to plan some sort of
cross country (complete with runway requirements, performance, etc),
then go get coffee and 1/2 watch the process but then go over the
results. A great DE sets aside the entire day for the checkride to
avoid rushing the student, although 1/2 a day is probably the most
common.

-Robert, CFII

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> I've been reading about oral exams for a private pilot license (in the
> U.S.), and two questions have come to mind.
>
> Where does this exam take place?

What does it matter to you? You'll never fly.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Luke Skywalker writes:
>
>> In your hypothetical if I gave you a question like the one you possed
>> and you gave me the "ball park" answer my next question "might" be,
>> "if you wanted a more precise one how would you figure it out?" and
>> then that would go to the "computing" device...I would probably feel
>> it necessary (grin) to show you how to use an E6B if all you have is
>> an electronic one (kind of a whiz bang thing)...
>
> I don't think that would be a problem. The ASA E6-B I bought is
> inexpensively made, though, and it's really hard to turn the wheels;
> it would be a pain to actually have to fumble with it in a cockpit.


How would you know, moron? You've never been in a cockpit.


>
> A nice Pickett steel or bamboo circular slide rule would be ideal--one
> of the rare situations in which a slide rule is probably superior to a
> calculator (no electricity, extremely fast and easy to use, more than
> accurate enough for its purpose, good at simplifying specific
> problems). Alas! Nobody seems to make slide rules any more. I saw a
> few other circular slide rules at the pilot store, but they all looked
> like the same thing in different materials, although I didn't look
> that closely.
>
>> I"ve done "part" of the oral in and around an airplane before...but I
>> dont like to. The environment is not controlled etc... It usually
>> doesnt do what I am trying to do and that is put the applicant at
>> "ease"...
>
> The only time I'm at ease during an exam is if I don't care if I pass.

Nobody else cares, that's for sure.



Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> TheSmokingGnu writes:
>
>> 120 kts is 2 nm/min (120/60), so the precise answer is 42 minutes
>> (84/2).
>
> I had not thought of that, although I suppose I would with some
> reflection. I'm sure I would not during an exam.
>

Not enough fingers, eh genius?


bertie

[Peter Dohm]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Apr 9, 5:54 pm, Ron Natalie > wrote:
> > Mxsmanic wrote:
> > > Where does this exam take place? Is it in a classroom, or in a
testing
> > > center, or is it actually in the aircraft?
> >
> > It's usually done at the point of the checkride, inside the FBO in some
> > convenient place where you go over the paperwork and then outside in the
> > vicinity of the aircraft, typically the candidate being asked questions
> > while demonstrating the checkride.
> >
> >
> >
> > > When you are asked math-type questions, are you expected to answer
with just a
> > > ballpark figure or an exact answer? In the latter case, can you use a
> > > calculator, or pencil and paper, or must you do it in your head?
> >
> > You're not typically asked math-type questions. Generally questions are
> > asked about aircraft systems and your preflight planning is examined.
> > In flight, you might be asked to compute some things as part of your
> > normal cross country navigation. Accuracy to what you can get on the
> > whizwheel is accceptable.
> >
> > > If I'm asked how long it will take to go 84 nm at 120 kts, I know that
it's
> > > about 40 minutes, but if an exact answer is required I don't see how I
could
> > > practically provide that without a calculator.
> >
> > Whizwheels were the classic, calculators are acceptable.
>
> Traditionally the students were told what calculations to do ahead of
> time and would arrive with a flight plan, W&B, performance, balanced
> field, etc asked for by the DE the night before the ride. However, the
> FSDO is now asking the examiners to throw those out and make the
> student do another one right there to ensure the CFI isn't doing it
> for them. Usually the DE will ask the student to plan some sort of
> cross country (complete with runway requirements, performance, etc),
> then go get coffee and 1/2 watch the process but then go over the
> results. A great DE sets aside the entire day for the checkride to
> avoid rushing the student, although 1/2 a day is probably the most
> common.
>
> -Robert, CFII
>
I had only ever heard of the 1/2 day scheduling--so now I'm curious:
Does a geate DE actually use the entire day, or just have it available?

Peter

[Luke Skywalker]

On Apr 10, 6:50 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> Mxsmanic > wrote :
>
> > Luke Skywalker writes:
>
> >> In your hypothetical if I gave you a question like the one you possed
> >> and you gave me the "ball park" answer my next question "might" be,
> >> "if you wanted a more precise one how would you figure it out?" and
> >> then that would go to the "computing" device...I would probably feel
> >> it necessary (grin) to show you how to use an E6B if all you have is
> >> an electronic one (kind of a whiz bang thing)...
>
> > I don't think that would be a problem. The ASA E6-B I bought is
> > inexpensively made, though, and it's really hard to turn the wheels;
> > it would be a pain to actually have to fumble with it in a cockpit.
>
> How would you know, moron? You've never been in a cockpit.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > A nice Pickett steel or bamboo circular slide rule would be ideal--one
> > of the rare situations in which a slide rule is probably superior to a
> > calculator (no electricity, extremely fast and easy to use, more than
> > accurate enough for its purpose, good at simplifying specific
> > problems). Alas! Nobody seems to make slide rules any more. I saw a
> > few other circular slide rules at the pilot store, but they all looked
> > like the same thing in different materials, although I didn't look
> > that closely.
>
> >> I"ve done "part" of the oral in and around an airplane before...but I
> >> dont like to. The environment is not controlled etc... It usually
> >> doesnt do what I am trying to do and that is put the applicant at
> >> "ease"...
>
> > The only time I'm at ease during an exam is if I don't care if I pass.
>
> Nobody else cares, that's for sure.
>
> Bertie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

LOL. Thats what I tell people everytime I sign off the white paper...

LOL

Robert

[Barry]

>> If I'm asked how long it will take to go 84 nm at 120 kts, I know that it's
>> about 40 minutes, but if an exact answer is required I don't see how I
>> could practically provide that without a calculator.
>>
> Whizwheels were the classic, calculators are acceptable.

I learned to fly in France in the mid-80's, and all student pilots were taught
to do these calculations mentally, using the "facteur de base" = 60/TAS. It
takes practice but works really well.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

"Luke Skywalker" > wrote in
ups.com:

> On Apr 10, 6:50 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> Mxsmanic > wrote
>> :
>>
>> > Luke Skywalker writes:
>>
>> >> In your hypothetical if I gave you a question like the one you
>> >> possed and you gave me the "ball park" answer my next question
>> >> "might" be, "if you wanted a more precise one how would you figure
>> >> it out?" and then that would go to the "computing" device...I
>> >> would probably feel it necessary (grin) to show you how to use an
>> >> E6B if all you have is an electronic one (kind of a whiz bang
>> >> thing)...
>>
>> > I don't think that would be a problem. The ASA E6-B I bought is
>> > inexpensively made, though, and it's really hard to turn the
>> > wheels; it would be a pain to actually have to fumble with it in a
>> > cockpit.
>>
>> How would you know, moron? You've never been in a cockpit.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > A nice Pickett steel or bamboo circular slide rule would be
>> > ideal--one of the rare situations in which a slide rule is probably
>> > superior to a calculator (no electricity, extremely fast and easy
>> > to use, more than accurate enough for its purpose, good at
>> > simplifying specific problems). Alas! Nobody seems to make slide
>> > rules any more. I saw a few other circular slide rules at the
>> > pilot store, but they all looked like the same thing in different
>> > materials, although I didn't look that closely.
>>
>> >> I"ve done "part" of the oral in and around an airplane
>> >> before...but I dont like to. The environment is not controlled
>> >> etc... It usually doesnt do what I am trying to do and that is
>> >> put the applicant at "ease"...
>>
>> > The only time I'm at ease during an exam is if I don't care if I
>> > pass.
>>
>> Nobody else cares, that's for sure.
>>
>> Bertie- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> LOL. Thats what I tell people everytime I sign off the white paper...
>

Kay...


Berti e

[Robert M. Gary]

On Apr 10, 6:47 am, "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in ooglegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Apr 9, 5:54 pm, Ron Natalie > wrote:
> > > Mxsmanic wrote:
> > > > Where does this exam take place? Is it in a classroom, or in a
> testing
> > > > center, or is it actually in the aircraft?
>
> > > It's usually done at the point of the checkride, inside the FBO in some
> > > convenient place where you go over the paperwork and then outside in the
> > > vicinity of the aircraft, typically the candidate being asked questions
> > > while demonstrating the checkride.
>
> > > > When you are asked math-type questions, are you expected to answer
> with just a
> > > > ballpark figure or an exact answer? In the latter case, can you use a
> > > > calculator, or pencil and paper, or must you do it in your head?
>
> > > You're not typically asked math-type questions. Generally questions are
> > > asked about aircraft systems and your preflight planning is examined.
> > > In flight, you might be asked to compute some things as part of your
> > > normal cross country navigation. Accuracy to what you can get on the
> > > whizwheel is accceptable.
>
> > > > If I'm asked how long it will take to go 84 nm at 120 kts, I know that
> it's
> > > > about 40 minutes, but if an exact answer is required I don't see how I
> could
> > > > practically provide that without a calculator.
>
> > > Whizwheels were the classic, calculators are acceptable.
>
> > Traditionally the students were told what calculations to do ahead of
> > time and would arrive with a flight plan, W&B, performance, balanced
> > field, etc asked for by the DE the night before the ride. However, the
> > FSDO is now asking the examiners to throw those out and make the
> > student do another one right there to ensure the CFI isn't doing it
> > for them. Usually the DE will ask the student to plan some sort of
> > cross country (complete with runway requirements, performance, etc),
> > then go get coffee and 1/2 watch the process but then go over the
> > results. A great DE sets aside the entire day for the checkride to
> > avoid rushing the student, although 1/2 a day is probably the most
> > common.
>
> > -Robert, CFII
>
> I had only ever heard of the 1/2 day scheduling--so now I'm curious:
> Does a geate DE actually use the entire day, or just have it available?
>
> Peter- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

As a CFI I appreciate it when a DE only does one checkride per day
because it puts less time pressure on the student. Sometimes things
don't work out right and extra time is needed. If the checkride is at
9am and the DE has another at noon, the DE will be more pressured.
About 1/2 the DEs will only schedule one per day because of this.
However, at $400 a pop, I can see why someone would want to do more
than 1 per day. Around here the DEs are scheduled pretty far out. Many
schedule 40 days out (which is REALLY hard as a CFI to ensure the
student "peaks" at the right time, accounting for illness,
maintenance, etc). Other DEs will only work out of certain airports
(simply because they dont' want to drive far from their house). We
have a great bunch of DEs out here (don't get me wrong) but the more
flexibility they give the student, the easier it is for me to make the
stars align at the right time.

-Robert

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

>
>Traditionally the students were told what calculations to do ahead of
>time and would arrive with a flight plan, W&B, performance, balanced
>field, etc asked for by the DE the night before the ride.

Really? I don't remember that tradition. I took my ride in '88 and at
that time, the DE would (maybe) tell you where the pseudo cross country was
going to go. On the day of the examination, you were required to do the
flight plan right there in front of the DE. As I recall, the PTS had a
requrement that the flight plan must be completed in 30 min. Later on (in
the rule overhaul of '96, IIRC), they dropped the 30 min. time limit.

>However, the
>FSDO is now asking the examiners to throw those out and make the
>student do another one right there to ensure the CFI isn't doing it
>for them.

That's probably not a bad idea. More likely than a CFI doing the plan for
the student, is the student just having a computer do the whole thing for him
in advance.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200704/1

[Mxsmanic]

JGalban via AviationKB.com writes:

> As I recall, the PTS had a
> requrement that the flight plan must be completed in 30 min. Later on (in
> the rule overhaul of '96, IIRC), they dropped the 30 min. time limit.

Why was there ever a time limit? Presumably you prepare flight plans in
advance, and it's not a race against the clock, but something you do
deliberately and carefully, however long it takes.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[d&tm]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>
snip
> If I'm asked how long it will take to go 84 nm at 120 kts, I know that
it's
> about 40 minutes, but if an exact answer is required I don't see how I
could
> practically provide that without a calculator.
>
your kidding! 120 kts = 2 nm /min exactly 84 nm = 42 min exactly

and even if it wasnt a nice round number , didnt you ever learn long
devision in primary school?

Personally I do most of my flight planning in Excel. but if I havent got a
computer with me, I always have a calculator in my flight bag.
For doing calculations in the copckpit , I do it all mentally. In all my
flying ( 200 hrs) I have never used a calculator or whizwheel in the air.
If say I have to do a diversion , I estimate distance off the map using the
old rule of thumb and I know my TAS in nm/min. I might use a protractor to
measure the
track, if I am not particularly busy, but normally I can estimate the track
with 10 degrees off the map which is usually accurate enough, when you have
adequate landmarks. I carry a GPS with me but only for "just in case"
terry

[Mxsmanic]

d&tm writes:

> your kidding! 120 kts = 2 nm /min exactly 84 nm = 42 min exactly

That probably would not occur to me during the stress of an exam.

> and even if it wasnt a nice round number , didnt you ever learn long
> devision in primary school?

Yes, long ago. I never liked it, and I did it with pencil and paper, not in
my head.

> Personally I do most of my flight planning in Excel. but if I havent got a
> computer with me, I always have a calculator in my flight bag.

I guess nobody uses slide rules any more.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>>
>> Traditionally the students were told what calculations to do ahead of
>> time and would arrive with a flight plan, W&B, performance, balanced
>> field, etc asked for by the DE the night before the ride.
>
> Really? I don't remember that tradition. I took my ride in '88
> and at that time, the DE would (maybe) tell you where the pseudo
> cross country was going to go. On the day of the examination, you
> were required to do the flight plan right there in front of the DE.
> As I recall, the PTS had a requrement that the flight plan must be
> completed in 30 min. Later on (in the rule overhaul of '96, IIRC),
> they dropped the 30 min. time limit.
>

Not in '79 or '96 either.

In '79 when I did my PPL I'd never met or talked to my DE before I flew down
to take the check ride. In '95 when I got my helicopter rating the DE was
himself being examined by an FAA examiner. I had been talking to the FAA guy
before I started and he knew I already had my PPL and that this was just an
add-on.

When the DE started asking questions about navigation the FAA guy stopped
him and said don't ask those. It shortend the check out considerably.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> JGalban via AviationKB.com writes:
>
>> As I recall, the PTS had a
>> requrement that the flight plan must be completed in 30 min. Later
>> on (in the rule overhaul of '96, IIRC), they dropped the 30 min. time
>> limit.
>
> Why was there ever a time limit? Presumably you prepare flight plans
> in advance, and it's not a race against the clock, but something you
> do deliberately and carefully, however long it takes.

How would you know? You've never prepared an instrument flight plan..
>

You are an idiot.


Bertie

[Robert M. Gary]

On Apr 10, 12:19 pm, "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> >Traditionally the students were told what calculations to do ahead of
> >time and would arrive with a flight plan, W&B, performance, balanced
> >field, etc asked for by the DE the night before the ride.
>
> Really? I don't remember that tradition. I took my ride in '88 and at
> that time, the DE would (maybe) tell you where the pseudo cross country was
> going to go. On the day of the examination, you were required to do the
> flight plan right there in front of the DE. As I recall, the PTS had a
> requrement that the flight plan must be completed in 30 min. Later on (in
> the rule overhaul of '96, IIRC), they dropped the 30 min. time limit.

You must be really old. Since the late 90's all the DE's I've worked
with have called the CFI the night before and assigned a cross country
along with the DE's weight.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Apr 10, 12:56 pm, "Gig 601XL Builder"
<wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote:
> JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:
> > Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> >> Traditionally the students were told what calculations to do ahead of
> >> time and would arrive with a flight plan, W&B, performance, balanced
> >> field, etc asked for by the DE the night before the ride.
>
> > Really? I don't remember that tradition. I took my ride in '88
> > and at that time, the DE would (maybe) tell you where the pseudo
> > cross country was going to go. On the day of the examination, you
> > were required to do the flight plan right there in front of the DE.
> > As I recall, the PTS had a requrement that the flight plan must be
> > completed in 30 min. Later on (in the rule overhaul of '96, IIRC),
> > they dropped the 30 min. time limit.
>
> Not in '79 or '96 either.
>
> In '79 when I did my PPL I'd never met or talked to my DE before I flew down
> to take the check ride. In '95 when I got my helicopter rating the DE was
> himself being examined by an FAA examiner. I had been talking to the FAA guy
> before I started and he knew I already had my PPL and that this was just an
> add-on.
>
> When the DE started asking questions about navigation the FAA guy stopped
> him and said don't ask those. It shortend the check out considerably.- Hide quoted text -

Everyone know that helicopters are too slow to go anywhere that would
require navigation (I assume the PTS table didn't require navigation
be covered when adding roto to your ASEL ticket)

-robert

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Everyone know that helicopters are too slow to go anywhere that would
> require navigation (I assume the PTS table didn't require navigation
> be covered when adding roto to your ASEL ticket)
>

You're right, it didn't. The DE didn't know that.

A rare example of the FAA being of true service. :)

[Peter Dohm]

> >
> > > Traditionally the students were told what calculations to do ahead of
> > > time and would arrive with a flight plan, W&B, performance, balanced
> > > field, etc asked for by the DE the night before the ride. However, the
> > > FSDO is now asking the examiners to throw those out and make the
> > > student do another one right there to ensure the CFI isn't doing it
> > > for them. Usually the DE will ask the student to plan some sort of
> > > cross country (complete with runway requirements, performance, etc),
> > > then go get coffee and 1/2 watch the process but then go over the
> > > results. A great DE sets aside the entire day for the checkride to
> > > avoid rushing the student, although 1/2 a day is probably the most
> > > common.
> >
> > > -Robert, CFII
> >
> > I had only ever heard of the 1/2 day scheduling--so now I'm curious:
> > Does a geate DE actually use the entire day, or just have it available?
> >
> > Peter- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> As a CFI I appreciate it when a DE only does one checkride per day
> because it puts less time pressure on the student. Sometimes things
> don't work out right and extra time is needed. If the checkride is at
> 9am and the DE has another at noon, the DE will be more pressured.
> About 1/2 the DEs will only schedule one per day because of this.
> However, at $400 a pop, I can see why someone would want to do more
> than 1 per day. Around here the DEs are scheduled pretty far out. Many
> schedule 40 days out (which is REALLY hard as a CFI to ensure the
> student "peaks" at the right time, accounting for illness,
> maintenance, etc). Other DEs will only work out of certain airports
> (simply because they dont' want to drive far from their house). We
> have a great bunch of DEs out here (don't get me wrong) but the more
> flexibility they give the student, the easier it is for me to make the
> stars align at the right time.
>
> -Robert
>
Thanks, that's a lot of good information that I never knew.

Peter

[Danny Deger]

"JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote in message
news:7081f5c06ccd4@uwe...
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>>
>>Traditionally the students were told what calculations to do ahead of
>>time and would arrive with a flight plan, W&B, performance, balanced
>>field, etc asked for by the DE the night before the ride.
>
> Really? I don't remember that tradition. I took my ride in '88 and at
> that time, the DE would (maybe) tell you where the pseudo cross country
> was
> going to go. On the day of the examination, you were required to do the
> flight plan right there in front of the DE. As I recall, the PTS had a
> requrement that the flight plan must be completed in 30 min. Later on (in
> the rule overhaul of '96, IIRC), they dropped the 30 min. time limit.
>

Hey, I just bought a Garmin 96 and I can plan a flight now in about 30
seconds. I bet DE don't like this technique on an exam though :-)

Danny Deger

[[email protected]]

On Apr 10, 3:55 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> d&tm writes:
> > Personally I do most of my flight planning in Excel. but if I havent got a
> > computer with me, I always have a calculator in my flight bag.
>
> I guess nobody uses slide rules any more.

There are still plenty of slide rules made for pilots, printers,
doctors, and so forth. Dozens of makers of them, including:

http://www.concise.co.jp/eng0731/slide.html
http://iwa-slidecharts.com/en/
http://www.perrygraf.com/products.html
etc..

And a whole bunch of us active slide rule users live at:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/sliderule/

I, for example, design manual flight computers as a hobby for myself,
using SVG to generate the graphics. I also researched and posted the
E-6B's history on Wikipedia, and have written a couple hundred pages
towards a book on the history of all flight whizwheels.

Kev

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> There are still plenty of slide rules made for pilots, printers,
> doctors, and so forth. Dozens of makers of them, including:
>
> http://www.concise.co.jp/eng0731/slide.html
> http://iwa-slidecharts.com/en/
> http://www.perrygraf.com/products.html
> etc..
>
> And a whole bunch of us active slide rule users live at:
>
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/sliderule/
>
> I, for example, design manual flight computers as a hobby for myself,
> using SVG to generate the graphics. I also researched and posted the
> E-6B's history on Wikipedia, and have written a couple hundred pages
> towards a book on the history of all flight whizwheels.

All good news to hear. But I guess Pickett is out of business (?).

--
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[Kev]

On Apr 17, 1:35 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:
> > There are still plenty of slide rules made for pilots, printers,
> > doctors, and so forth. Dozens of makers of them, including:
>
> All good news to hear. But I guess Pickett is out of business (?).

Yes, but their entire inventory, which was about to be sold to Mexico
as scrap, was bought by a collector 25 years ago, and is fed out to
others.

Other families, like the Faber-Castells, don't make slide rules any
more, but have hosted collector parties in their castle and given away
valuable samples.

In the International Slide Rule Group I mentioned before, we still
have a custom rule made for us every couple of years or so.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/sliderule/

Some other sites of interest to anyone into slide rules:

http://www.oughtred.org
http://www.sliderulemuseum.com/
http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/sruniverse.html

Kev

[Mxsmanic]

Kev writes:

> Yes, but their entire inventory, which was about to be sold to Mexico
> as scrap, was bought by a collector 25 years ago, and is fed out to
> others.

Wow! That's a pretty good way to retire!

I don't understand why they aren't made any more. There are times when
something that's quick, "close enough" in accuracy, and requires no batteries
can be handy.

--
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[Kev]

On Apr 17, 9:53 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Kevwrites:
> I don't understand why they aren't made any more. There are times when
> something that's quick, "close enough" in accuracy, and requires no batteries
> can be handy.

True, and therefore aviation slide rules are still made and sold in
every pilot shop. New flight computer ideas are still being
patented, thought not nearly in the quantity of decades past.

Here are some examples of makers / sellers of current flight
computers:

http://www.lnp.co.uk/Other.htm
http://www.asa2fly.com/category1.asp?SID=1&Category_ID=43&
http://www.concise.co.jp/eng0731/nav01.html
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/aprcr.php
http://www.flightstore.co.uk/category/use.from.9.dept.115.dept_l2.117.dept_l3.0.sort.byn ame/

and the weird but interesting:

http://www.qudiem.com/qdm_home.htm

Kev