high winds in Palm Spring

[Blair]

I'm a low timer (110 hours) scheduled to fly from Palo Alto to the
Bermuda Dunes in the Palm Springs area Thursday afternoon.
Unfortunately, I see there is Wind Advisory in effect from 11 am
Wednesday to 9 PM PDT Thursday and forecast winds of 20 to 30 mph from
the northwest. It'd be one thing if that just means strong but steady
winds blowing down the runway. But I'm concerned that it could mean
strong gusts at ground level and/or significant turbulence in the
Cajon and Banning passes that I'll be traveling through. I will
continue to monitor conditions and talk to a briefer prior to making a
go/no go decision but I was wondering if anyone here has local
knowledge about the ramifications of this forecast.

Thanks.

Blair

[Peter R.]

On 4/11/2007 3:34:24 AM, Blair wrote:

> I will
> continue to monitor conditions and talk to a briefer prior to making a
> go/no go decision but I was wondering if anyone here has local
> knowledge about the ramifications of this forecast.

If you haven't already, consider calling one of the flight schools there at
the PSP airport and ask for an instructor's opinion, too. Most there are
quite helpful.

As far as local experience, my father used to live in PSP so a few years ago
when visiting him I rented a C172 out of the Palm Springs Flight School and
had my checkout ride in some pretty stiff winds. The instructor and I flew up
to Big Bear Lake and then west towards LA, then back around through the
Banning Pass to land. I recall that it was turbulent through the pass, but
not out-of-control turbulence, so I had no trouble with it for my experience
at the time. Landing at Palm Springs airport in those winds required the same
gusty winds landing skills as other airports. I wouldn't want to fly over
those mountains in strong winds, mind you, but as they are 10 to 12 thousand
feet high it tends to not be an option for the typical light GA aircraft. :)

The answer to your question also depends on your passengers. If you are going
to be carrying passengers and they are inexperienced light GA passengers, it
would be wise to wait until the winds were not so strong.

--
Peter

[[email protected]]

On Apr 11, 6:51 am, "Peter R." > wrote:
> On 4/11/2007 3:34:24 AM, Blair wrote:
>
> > I will
> > continue to monitor conditions and talk to a briefer prior to making a
> > go/no go decision but I was wondering if anyone here has local
> > knowledge about the ramifications of this forecast.
>
> If you haven't already, consider calling one of the flight schools there at
> the PSP airport and ask for an instructor's opinion, too. Most there are
> quite helpful.
>
> As far as local experience, my father used to live in PSP so a few years ago
> when visiting him I rented a C172 out of the Palm Springs Flight School and
> had my checkout ride in some pretty stiff winds. The instructor and I flew up
> to Big Bear Lake and then west towards LA, then back around through the
> Banning Pass to land. I recall that it was turbulent through the pass, but
> not out-of-control turbulence, so I had no trouble with it for my experience
> at the time. Landing at Palm Springs airport in those winds required the same
> gusty winds landing skills as other airports. I wouldn't want to fly over
> those mountains in strong winds, mind you, but as they are 10 to 12 thousand
> feet high it tends to not be an option for the typical light GA aircraft. :)
>
> The answer to your question also depends on your passengers. If you are going
> to be carrying passengers and they are inexperienced light GA passengers, it
> would be wise to wait until the winds were not so strong.
>
> --
> Peter

Agree. also just have a plan B. Thermal KTRM is a little further
down the valley, might not be as bad. Also, dont use full flaps on
landing (I use 20 in a 172) so I can go around easier - esp with pax.
1/2 the gust factor - you know the drill.

[Marc J. Zeitlin]

Blair wrote:

> I'm a low timer (110 hours) scheduled to fly from Palo Alto to the
> Bermuda Dunes in the Palm Springs area Thursday afternoon..... But
> I'm concerned that it could mean strong gusts at ground level
> and/or significant turbulence in the Cajon and Banning passes that
> I'll be traveling through.

I live in Tehachapi, work in Mojave, and fly in this area often.
Winds will be an issue from Bakersfield through the Tehachapi pass
into the Antelope Valley (to Rosamond) and then again as you get near
Big Bear. I'd recommend NOT going through the Cajon/Banning passes,
but going around Big Bear to the north and east, and then cutting
south to Palm Springs. You'll still get bumped a bit, but it'll be
less than going through the passes - especially Banning.

I'd actually be more concerned about the winds tomorrow (Thursday)
just east of the windmill farm on the Tehachapi ridge - when winds are
over 20-25 kts, you get a pretty good rotor going, and even when there
are no clouds to point it out to you, it's there. I've gotten beat up
pretty good going back and forth over that ridge. Stay at least 2000
ft. over the ridge - going east, be at 9500 ft, and west, 8500 ft.
The winds in Mojave/Edwards are supposed to be in the 40-50 kt. range
- sometimes, it's relatively smooth, with 5 kt. gusts, and sometimes
it's bumpy with 20 kt. gusts. Check the Metars before you leave to
see what's up.

All that said, the turbulence is rarely more than light to moderate -
it's bumpy, and not a lot of fun, but hardly dangerous.

Although there is one pilot at work who got flipped inverted at 800
ft. AGL on downwind at Mojave by the rotor, but that's rare :-).

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2007

[Blair]

Unfortunately, the Palm Springs Thursday forecast is now:

Areas of blowing sand and blowing dust...Winds northwest 25 to 35 mph
with gusts to 50 mph. Visibility one quarter mile or less at times in
the evening.

That's sounding out of my comfort level. It's looking like a Friday
morning departure.

But good advice so far. Especially about the alternate route around
Big Bear.

Marc, regarding Tehachapi pass, how does that compare to Tejon pass?
My planned route was to follow 5 to Gorman and then turn to Palmdale.

Best.

Blair

[Steve Schneider]

Marc J. Zeitlin wrote:

> I'd recommend NOT going through the Cajon/Banning passes, but going
> around Big Bear to the north and east, and then cutting south to Palm
> Springs. You'll still get bumped a bit, but it'll be less than going
> through the passes - especially Banning.

I'd agree with this suggestion for a smoother flight -- but be vigilant
near Adelanto for UAV activity. last year I attended a safety
seminar at the San Diego FSDO presented by an Edwards AFB test pilot
who pointed out the hazards in and around the R2508 complex. Adelanto
was mentioned for the high conentration of UAV activity with a strong
suggestion to keep your eyes outside the cockpit when you are in the
area. The footprint for their activty was significant.

Steve

[Marc Zeitlin]

Blair wrote:

<weather turned to crap>

Yeah, it's 55G65 here at Mojave now, and cold. Pretty miserable. 40
kts in Tehachapi with snow :-).

> Marc, regarding Tehachapi pass, how does that compare to Tejon pass?
> My planned route was to follow 5 to Gorman and then turn to Palmdale.

Tejon pass is lower and less windy (usually), as is western Antelope
Valley, but going over BFL/TSP/MHV/PMD rather than Gorman/PMD keeps
you closer to airports - there's nothing in the western Antelope
Valley. 8500 ft. over Tehachapi is higher than anything surrounding
you, and keeps you high enough to stay out of the worse turbulence
down lower - you're 3K ft. over the windmill ridge.

Plus, Tehachapi is prettier :-).

--
Marc J. Zeitlin

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:55:46 -0700, Steve Schneider
> wrote in >:

>last year I attended a safety
>seminar at the San Diego FSDO presented by an Edwards AFB test pilot
>who pointed out the hazards in and around the R2508 complex. Adelanto
>was mentioned for the high conentration of UAV activity with a strong
>suggestion to keep your eyes outside the cockpit when you are in the
>area. The footprint for their activty was significant.

Did the Edwards AFB test pilot happen to mention why they don't
confine their UAV operations to their not insignificant expanse of
Restricted areas?

It's always a good idea to keep a sharp lookout for conflicting
traffic. The Air Force conducted a study that indicated that only 3
or 4 seconds out of every 20 seconds should be spent on piloting the
aircraft; the rest should be spent scanning.

[Mxsmanic]

Larry Dighera writes:

> It's always a good idea to keep a sharp lookout for conflicting
> traffic. The Air Force conducted a study that indicated that only 3
> or 4 seconds out of every 20 seconds should be spent on piloting the
> aircraft; the rest should be spent scanning.

That would depend on the flight conditions, would it not? I'm not sure what a
pilot over the Atlantic would be scanning for that would require 17 out of
every 20 seconds.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Steve Schneider]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:55:46 -0700, Steve Schneider
> > wrote in >:
>
>>last year I attended a safety
>>seminar at the San Diego FSDO presented by an Edwards AFB test pilot
>>who pointed out the hazards in and around the R2508 complex. Adelanto
>>was mentioned for the high conentration of UAV activity with a strong
>>suggestion to keep your eyes outside the cockpit when you are in the
>>area. The footprint for their activty was significant.
>
> Did the Edwards AFB test pilot happen to mention why they don't
> confine their UAV operations to their not insignificant expanse of
> Restricted areas?
>

At the time he did not go into much detail, though I subsequently
learned that General Atomics has Predator-B/Altair R&D and production
facilities in the area. It is my understanding that much of the
UAV activity south of the R2508 complex is conducted by General
Atomics rather than by NASA or the Air Force -- though some of
the flights are likely for training NASA and AF UAV operators.

http://www.ga.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1158954510&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&
provided the following tidbit about GA's program:

... training UA crews in the unrestricted areas where
manufacturer airports typically reside. Under Altair’s
airworthiness certificate, the aircraft can continue
to be used for crew training, experimental flight testing
and marketing demonstrations at GA-ASI’s Gray Butte and
El Mirage air fields in Palmdale and Adelanto, CA.

I dug up some of the hardcopy materials I collected at the presentation
which reference http://www.edwards.af.mil/psafety as the Edwards AFB
source for current safety info and copies of the presentation materials.
Much to my suprise the link is not currenlty valid, though I did find
it cached on Google -- but none of the subsequent links off that page
seem to work. I had visited these pages after the presentation, and
there was a lot of good content. I hope they put them back online.

Steve

[[email protected]]

I have read this discussion here with delight because I am wanting to
make this flight over this Memorial day weekend. I studied the
different routes suggested here and plotted them in my flight software
(Voyager) they all seemed OK, but the high terrain and turbulence
concerns me a bit. In thinking about it I thought of maybe getting to
KUDD from KPAO by going the over the hills to the coast via Woodside
then roughly, Salinas, Paso, SLO, Santa Barbara, Burbank, Banning onto
Palm Springs and KUDD.

The terrain is 2500-3000MSL (unless I am not seeing something) and it
is a little longer but only by about 12-18 minutes. Am I crazy or
would this be a good route? It avoids the LAX bravo and seems OK.

I wish that I had more experience with this, but I guess that is why
there are forums where you can ask questions! =)

David
202hrs, VFR pilot, 2003 Piper Archer III

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> I have read this discussion here with delight because I am wanting to
> make this flight over this Memorial day weekend. I studied the
> different routes suggested here and plotted them in my flight software
> (Voyager) they all seemed OK, but the high terrain and turbulence
> concerns me a bit. In thinking about it I thought of maybe getting to
> KUDD from KPAO by going the over the hills to the coast via Woodside
> then roughly, Salinas, Paso, SLO, Santa Barbara, Burbank, Banning onto
> Palm Springs and KUDD.

> The terrain is 2500-3000MSL (unless I am not seeing something) and it
> is a little longer but only by about 12-18 minutes. Am I crazy or
> would this be a good route? It avoids the LAX bravo and seems OK.

> I wish that I had more experience with this, but I guess that is why
> there are forums where you can ask questions! =)

> David
> 202hrs, VFR pilot, 2003 Piper Archer III

I can't say anything about north of SLO, but the rest is no problem.

I would recommend at least 5500/6500 to get above the local traffic
and flight following as there is a lot of traffic going that route
and you will be crossing over several class C airports.

Going from Santa Barbara to Camarillo to Van Nuys is a couple of
minutes longer than Santa Barbara direct to Van Nuys, but more
scenic if there is no coastal fog.

Burbank doesn't have a VOR, but Van Nuys does.

Van Nuys to the Pomona VOR to the Banning pass is basically a straight
shot.

You can get through the Banning Pass at 5500/6500, but depending on
the winds and your tolerance for the bumps, you might want to go
through higher.

Unless you are really high, you will lose ATC once you enter the
pass and pick them up again at about the Indian Casino which is
the huge, tall building in the middle of nowhere that sticks out
like a sore thumb next to the freeway.


--
Jim Pennino

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[[email protected]]

Jim,

Thanks very much for the advice. The trip from Plao Alto to SLO is an
easy and nice flight. I will put the route you suggested into Voyager
and check it out. I have no problem going through Banning at
8500/9500, I just wanted a route that would have the most low
terrain. Personal preference on my part. Besides, I love flying
above the coast. And I do know the Indian casino building for ATC
pickup, I have driven by it on the freeway. BTW what do you fly?

David

[[email protected]]

wrote:

> Jim,

> Thanks very much for the advice. The trip from Plao Alto to SLO is an
> easy and nice flight. I will put the route you suggested into Voyager
> and check it out. I have no problem going through Banning at
> 8500/9500, I just wanted a route that would have the most low
> terrain. Personal preference on my part. Besides, I love flying
> above the coast. And I do know the Indian casino building for ATC
> pickup, I have driven by it on the freeway. BTW what do you fly?

> David

8500 is the highest I've ever had to go to get a fairly smooth
ride, but if the Santa Ana's are blowing, I don't go near the
passes.

The winds have been calm and are forecast to stay that way for
a while.

I fly a 79 Tiger.


--
Jim Pennino

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[[email protected]]

Jim

A '79 Tiger ehhhhh, nice

I was wondering about the heat in Plam Springs and if there are any
problems getting out of there when it is relatively hot during the
day. I know that at Tahoe we keep a very close eye on the temp with
the airport being at 6K+. I would like to come back home in the
afternoon and the temps are forecast to be in the mid '90s. Do you
have any experience trying to leave daytime? I just will not try to
fly VFR at night through the mountains at this point in my career. I
also have the concern that the Archer has a 180hp engine. It gets me
out of Tahoe OK, but real slow.

Thanks

David

[[email protected]]

Jim

A '79 Tiger ehhhhh, nice

I was wondering about the heat in Plam Springs and if there are any
problems getting out of there when it is relatively hot during the
day. I know that at Tahoe we keep a very close eye on the temp with
the airport being at 6K+. I would like to come back home in the
afternoon and the temps are forecast to be in the mid '90s. Do you
have any experience trying to leave daytime? I just will not try to
fly VFR at night through the mountains at this point in my career. I
also have the concern that the Archer has a 180hp engine. It gets me
out of Tahoe OK, but real slow.

Thanks

David

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> Jim

> A '79 Tiger ehhhhh, nice

> I was wondering about the heat in Plam Springs and if there are any
> problems getting out of there when it is relatively hot during the
> day. I know that at Tahoe we keep a very close eye on the temp with
> the airport being at 6K+. I would like to come back home in the
> afternoon and the temps are forecast to be in the mid '90s. Do you
> have any experience trying to leave daytime? I just will not try to
> fly VFR at night through the mountains at this point in my career. I
> also have the concern that the Archer has a 180hp engine. It gets me
> out of Tahoe OK, but real slow.

> Thanks

Well, the altitude at UDD is 73 feet with a 5000 foot runway, and
with a temp of 104 according to the chart I'm looking at gives a
density altitude of about 3000 feet.

Getting off the ground shouldn't be a problem with an Archer.

UDD is about 20 some miles from the mouth of the pass so getting
to the 4000 feet or so minimum to get through the pass shouldn't
be a problem either.

All the times I've landed at PSP was before I bought the Tiger
and in a 172 and never had any problem getting to altitude
before the pass and PSP is a bit over 10 miles from the pass.

If it were the middle of the summer with temps well over 100
and flying something like a 152 at max gross, you might want
to depart to the south east to gain altitude then turn back
towards the pass, but the Archer should have no problem.

Going through Banning pass at night is no big deal. You just
follow the freeway through.


--
Jim Pennino

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[[email protected]]

Jim,

Thanks so much, you have been a world of help to me. The farthest I
have been from Palo Alto so far is Santa Barbara. This is not that
much further, but the unknown is the unknown. I will have a much
easier time now and more peace of mind with your help.

David

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> Jim,

> Thanks so much, you have been a world of help to me. The farthest I
> have been from Palo Alto so far is Santa Barbara. This is not that
> much further, but the unknown is the unknown. I will have a much
> easier time now and more peace of mind with your help.

> David

Not a problem.

Just be sure to use flight following and keep a good scan for traffic.

--
Jim Pennino

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[Dylan Smith]

On 2007-05-22, > wrote:
> If it were the middle of the summer with temps well over 100
> and flying something like a 152 at max gross, you might want
> to depart to the south east to gain altitude then turn back
> towards the pass, but the Archer should have no problem.

I did it from a little further down the valley (Thermal airfield, I
can't remember what it's official name is, but it's actually below sea
level) in an 85 hp C140... with a cruise prop, on a day which was over
100 degrees. It didn't climb very well, but I didn't have any trouble
getting through Banning pass.

Two weeks later, I crossed the Sierra Nevadas in that aircraft. It took
more or less 100 miles of climbing to get enough altitude to cross :-)

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[[email protected]]

Dylan Smith > wrote:
> On 2007-05-22, > wrote:
> > If it were the middle of the summer with temps well over 100
> > and flying something like a 152 at max gross, you might want
> > to depart to the south east to gain altitude then turn back
> > towards the pass, but the Archer should have no problem.

> I did it from a little further down the valley (Thermal airfield, I
> can't remember what it's official name is, but it's actually below sea
> level) in an 85 hp C140... with a cruise prop, on a day which was over
> 100 degrees. It didn't climb very well, but I didn't have any trouble
> getting through Banning pass.

> Two weeks later, I crossed the Sierra Nevadas in that aircraft. It took
> more or less 100 miles of climbing to get enough altitude to cross :-)

It is now called Cochran Regional (TRM) at -115 feet.

--
Jim Pennino

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