IFR in uncontroller airspace

[Danny Deger]

Has anyone out there ever flown IFR in uncontrolled airspace without a
flight plan. I understand there are places out west that still have large
tracts of uncontrolled airspace that go up to altitude (14,500 feet??).

I am used to it either ending at 700 or 1200 feet AGL.

Danny Deger

[Robert M. Gary]

On Apr 11, 8:48 am, "Danny Deger" > wrote:
> Has anyone out there ever flown IFR in uncontrolled airspace without a
> flight plan. I understand there are places out west that still have large
> tracts of uncontrolled airspace that go up to altitude (14,500 feet??).
>
> I am used to it either ending at 700 or 1200 feet AGL.
>
> Danny Deger

Everytime I leave my home airport IFR I'm flying IFR in uncontrolled
airspace, I don't file unless I think the fog is high enough to extend
into controlled airspace. Also, 75% of all my IFR in Mexico is
uncontrolled.

-Robert

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On 11 Apr, 16:48, "Danny Deger" > wrote:
> Has anyone out there ever flown IFR in uncontrolled airspace without a
> flight plan. I understand there are places out west that still have large
> tracts of uncontrolled airspace that go up to altitude (14,500 feet??).
>
> I am used to it either ending at 700 or 1200 feet AGL.
>
> Danny Deger

Yeah, long time ago. Cessna 140, ADFs only.. You'd be hard pressed to
find somewhere you could do it today!

[Dan[_1_]]

What are the airspace restrictions for uncontrolled IFR in Mexico?
I've been thinking of making a trip.

--Dan


On Apr 11, 9:35 am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Apr 11, 8:48 am, "Danny Deger" > wrote:
>
> > Has anyone out there ever flown IFR in uncontrolled airspace without a
> > flight plan. I understand there are places out west that still have large
> > tracts of uncontrolled airspace that go up to altitude (14,500 feet??).
>
> > I am used to it either ending at 700 or 1200 feet AGL.
>
> > Danny Deger
>
> Everytime I leave my home airport IFR I'm flying IFR in uncontrolled
> airspace, I don't file unless I think the fog is high enough to extend
> into controlled airspace. Also, 75% of all my IFR in Mexico is
> uncontrolled.
>
> -Robert

[kevmor]

If it's uncontrolled, how do you know someone just like you didn't
take off in the same area, and your in IMC?

On Apr 11, 9:35 am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> Everytime I leave my home airport IFR I'm flying IFR in uncontrolled
> airspace, I don't file unless I think the fog is high enough to extend
> into controlled airspace. Also, 75% of all my IFR in Mexico is
> uncontrolled.
>
> -Robert

[Danny Deger]

"kevmor" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> If it's uncontrolled, how do you know someone just like you didn't
> take off in the same area, and your in IMC?
>
> On Apr 11, 9:35 am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>> Everytime I leave my home airport IFR I'm flying IFR in uncontrolled
>> airspace, I don't file unless I think the fog is high enough to extend
>> into controlled airspace. Also, 75% of all my IFR in Mexico is
>> uncontrolled.
>>
>> -Robert
>
>

You don't. I think the theory of uncontrolled space is there are so few
planes the likelyhood of a conflict is very, very small.

Danny Deger

[Blueskies]

"Danny Deger" > wrote in message ...
:
: "kevmor" > wrote in message
: ups.com...
: > If it's uncontrolled, how do you know someone just like you didn't
: > take off in the same area, and your in IMC?
: >
: > On Apr 11, 9:35 am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
: >> Everytime I leave my home airport IFR I'm flying IFR in uncontrolled
: >> airspace, I don't file unless I think the fog is high enough to extend
: >> into controlled airspace. Also, 75% of all my IFR in Mexico is
: >> uncontrolled.
: >>
: >> -Robert
: >
: >
:
: You don't. I think the theory of uncontrolled space is there are so few
: planes the likelyhood of a conflict is very, very small.
:
: Danny Deger
:
:
The title to this thread should be "IF" in uncontrolled airspace, the "R" makes it an oxymoron...

[Danny Deger]

"Blueskies" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Danny Deger" > wrote in message
> ...
> :
> : "kevmor" > wrote in message
> : ups.com...
> : > If it's uncontrolled, how do you know someone just like you didn't
> : > take off in the same area, and your in IMC?
> : >
> : > On Apr 11, 9:35 am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> : >> Everytime I leave my home airport IFR I'm flying IFR in uncontrolled
> : >> airspace, I don't file unless I think the fog is high enough to
> extend
> : >> into controlled airspace. Also, 75% of all my IFR in Mexico is
> : >> uncontrolled.
> : >>
> : >> -Robert
> : >
> : >
> :
> : You don't. I think the theory of uncontrolled space is there are so few
> : planes the likelyhood of a conflict is very, very small.
> :
> : Danny Deger
> :
> :
> The title to this thread should be "IF" in uncontrolled airspace, the "R"
> makes it an oxymoron...
>
>

Yes I know. I made a typo.

Danny Deger

[Ron Natalie]

Blueskies wrote:

> :
> The title to this thread should be "IF" in uncontrolled airspace, the "R" makes it an oxymoron...
>
>

All the IFR RULES still apply. The only thing you don't have
is a clearance.

[Blueskies]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message ...
: Blueskies wrote:
:
: > :
: > The title to this thread should be "IF" in uncontrolled airspace, the "R" makes it an oxymoron...
: >
: >
:
: All the IFR RULES still apply. The only thing you don't have
: is a clearance.


Isn't a clearance one of the rules?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Blueskies" > wrote in message
t...
>
> Isn't a clearance one of the rules?
>

Only in controlled airspace.


§ 91.173 ATC clearance and flight plan required.
No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless
that person has-

(a) Filed an IFR flight plan; and

(b) Received an appropriate ATC clearance.

[Frank Ch. Eigler]

"Blueskies" > writes:

> : All the IFR RULES still apply. The only thing you don't have
> : is a clearance.
>
> Isn't a clearance one of the rules?

Of course not, in uncontrolled airspace. But many other rules apply:
cruise altitudes for direction of flight, minimum altitudes, etc.

- FChE

[Blueskies]

"Frank Ch. Eigler" > wrote in message ...
:
: "Blueskies" > writes:
:
: > : All the IFR RULES still apply. The only thing you don't have
: > : is a clearance.
: >
: > Isn't a clearance one of the rules?
:
: Of course not, in uncontrolled airspace. But many other rules apply:
: cruise altitudes for direction of flight, minimum altitudes, etc.
:
: - FChE


I guess I really don't get this. Folks fly below VFR minimums in class G under IFR? Under what 'rules?'

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Blueskies" > wrote in message
t...
>
> I guess I really don't get this. Folks fly below VFR minimums in class G
> under
> IFR? Under what 'rules?'
>

Under the Instrument Flight Rules. See Part 91 Subpart B, 91.167 through
91.193.

[Frank Ch. Eigler]

"Blueskies" > writes:

> I guess I really don't get this. Folks fly below VFR minimums in
> class G under IFR?

Yes, that's what we've been telling you.

> Under what 'rules?'

There are numerous rules. Read the AIM/FARs, and ignore only those
clauses that are conditioned on "in controlled airspace". The rest
probably apply.

- FChE

[Ron Natalie]

Blueskies wrote:
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message ...
> : Blueskies wrote:
> :
> : > :
> : > The title to this thread should be "IF" in uncontrolled airspace, the "R" makes it an oxymoron...
> : >
> : >
> :
> : All the IFR RULES still apply. The only thing you don't have
> : is a clearance.
>
>
> Isn't a clearance one of the rules?
>
>
Having a clearance in CONTROLLED AIRSPACE is one of the rules.
All the other ones: pilot qualifications, aircraft equipment,
minimum altitudes, alternates, fuel reserves, etc... still apply.

Uncontrolled airspace only eliminates the need for a clearance,
not the bulk of the IFR rules.

[Ron Natalie]

Blueskies wrote:
\
> : Of course not, in uncontrolled airspace. But many other rules apply:
> : cruise altitudes for direction of flight, minimum altitudes, etc.
> :
> : - FChE
>
>
> I guess I really don't get this. Folks fly below VFR minimums in class G under IFR? Under what 'rules?'
>
>
Under IFR rules. You can't fly in conditions below the VFR weather
minimums (legally) except IFR.

This means you must be:

1. Instrument rated.
2. Have a plane with the necessary equipment and
inspections for IFR flight.
3. Maintain the minimum altitudes
4. Pilot must be IFR current.
5. If you can arrive VFR at the destination, you must have an
instrument approach.

Except for takeoffs and landings from airports that don't have
surface areas, practical IFR in uncontrolled airspace is thwarted
by #3 and #5 above in most cases. You can't do enroute below
1000'/2000' (normal/mountainous) and most approaches will start
in controlled airspace even if they don't terminate there.

There's also a (not supported by regulation) legal interpretation
where a guy was strung up where the FAA interpretted it as
reckless and dangerous because he did not have an IFR clearance
at the time he took off to continue his flight into controlled
airspace.

[Blueskies]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message m...
: Under IFR rules. You can't fly in conditions below the VFR weather
: minimums (legally) except IFR.
:
: This means you must be:
:
: 1. Instrument rated.
: 2. Have a plane with the necessary equipment and
: inspections for IFR flight.
: 3. Maintain the minimum altitudes
: 4. Pilot must be IFR current.
: 5. If you can arrive VFR at the destination, you must have an
: instrument approach.
:
: Except for takeoffs and landings from airports that don't have
: surface areas, practical IFR in uncontrolled airspace is thwarted
: by #3 and #5 above in most cases. You can't do enroute below
: 1000'/2000' (normal/mountainous) and most approaches will start
: in controlled airspace even if they don't terminate there.
:
: There's also a (not supported by regulation) legal interpretation
: where a guy was strung up where the FAA interpretted it as
: reckless and dangerous because he did not have an IFR clearance
: at the time he took off to continue his flight into controlled
: airspace.


Well I'll be, I never understood that. So basically you are saying 1000' AGL instrument flight in non-mountainous areas
is legal as long as you stay in class G, also assuming you and the plane are current, and that the landing airport
exceeds VFR minimums when you get there. I never thought anyone would operate in class G at less than VFR minimums...

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Blueskies" > wrote in message
t...
>
> Well I'll be, I never understood that. So basically you are saying 1000'
> AGL
> instrument flight in non-mountainous areas is legal as long as you stay in
> class
> G, also assuming you and the plane are current, and that the landing
> airport
> exceeds VFR minimums when you get there.
>

You've also got to cruise at a cardinal altitude appropriate for your
direction of flight.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Apr 15, 5:25 pm, "Blueskies" > wrote:
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in ting.com...
>
> : Under IFR rules. You can't fly in conditions below the VFR weather
> : minimums (legally) except IFR.
> :
> : This means you must be:
> :
> : 1. Instrument rated.
> : 2. Have a plane with the necessary equipment and
> : inspections for IFR flight.
> : 3. Maintain the minimum altitudes
> : 4. Pilot must be IFR current.
> : 5. If you can arrive VFR at the destination, you must have an
> : instrument approach.
> :
> : Except for takeoffs and landings from airports that don't have
> : surface areas, practical IFR in uncontrolled airspace is thwarted
> : by #3 and #5 above in most cases. You can't do enroute below
> : 1000'/2000' (normal/mountainous) and most approaches will start
> : in controlled airspace even if they don't terminate there.
> :
> : There's also a (not supported by regulation) legal interpretation
> : where a guy was strung up where the FAA interpretted it as
> : reckless and dangerous because he did not have an IFR clearance
> : at the time he took off to continue his flight into controlled
> : airspace.
>
> Well I'll be, I never understood that. So basically you are saying 1000' AGL instrument flight in non-mountainous areas
> is legal as long as you stay in class G, also assuming you and the plane are current, and that the landing airport
> exceeds VFR minimums when you get there. I never thought anyone would operate in class G at less than VFR minimums...

So you've never taken off IFR from an airport that didn't have class D
(or E) to the surface???

-Robert

[Ron Natalie]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

>
> So you've never taken off IFR from an airport that didn't have class D
> (or E) to the surface???
>

Or landed.

[Blueskies]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message m...
: Robert M. Gary wrote:
:
: >
: > So you've never taken off IFR from an airport that didn't have class D
: > (or E) to the surface???
: >
:
: Or landed.
:

Yes, but I had a clearance. Granted the clearance was to be at a fix by a specific time when taking off, and the airport
had an approach with weather above minimums.

I need to see more examples...

[ZikZak]

On Apr 16, 4:32 pm, "Blueskies" > wrote:
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in ting.com...
>
> : Robert M. Gary wrote:
> :
> : >
> : > So you've never taken off IFR from an airport that didn't have class D
> : > (or E) to the surface???
> : >
> :
> : Or landed.
> :
>
> Yes, but I had a clearance.

You definitely did not have a clearance for the class G portion of
your flight.

[ZikZak]

On Apr 16, 4:32 pm, "Blueskies" > wrote:

> I need to see more examples...

Then look up (just off the top of my head) Eureka, NV (05U) on
skyvector. Suppose you want to get from there to, well, anywhere under
IFR. You have no choice but enroute IFR in class G. The entire country
was once like Eureka, NV.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Apr 16, 4:32 pm, "Blueskies" > wrote:
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in ting.com...
>
> : Robert M. Gary wrote:
> :
> : >
> : > So you've never taken off IFR from an airport that didn't have class D
> : > (or E) to the surface???
> : >
> :
> : Or landed.
> :
>
> Yes, but I had a clearance. Granted the clearance was to be at a fix by a specific time when taking off, and the airport
> had an approach with weather above minimums.

ATC can't issue an IFR clearance for airspace that they don't control
(class G). There would be no point.

-Robert

[kevmor]

So even though you're flying an appropriate altitude for the course
flown, theres no guarantee that when climbing/descending you won't hit
someone else doing the same?

On Apr 16, 9:33 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Apr 16, 4:32 pm, "Blueskies" > wrote:
>
> > "Ron Natalie" > wrote in ting.com...
>
> > : Robert M. Gary wrote:
> > :
> > : >
> > : > So you've never taken off IFR from an airport that didn't have class D
> > : > (or E) to the surface???
> > : >
> > :
> > : Or landed.
> > :
>
> > Yes, but I had a clearance. Granted the clearance was to be at a fix by a specific time when taking off, and the airport
> > had an approach with weather above minimums.
>
> ATC can't issue an IFR clearance for airspace that they don't control
> (class G). There would be no point.
>
> -Robert

[Ron Natalie]

kevmor wrote:
> So even though you're flying an appropriate altitude for the course
> flown, theres no guarantee that when climbing/descending you won't hit
> someone else doing the same?
>
Yep, big sky.

There actually has been an FAA enforcment action that says that
climb/descend in uncontrolled airspace without a clearance for
obtained for the part in controlled airspace is reckless and
dangerous. Essentially they figure that while ATC is not
excercising control in the uncontrolled area, the idea that the
"one at a time" rule in the transition area would protect you.