slips to landing in PTS

[BB]

RAS fans may be interested in the results of an investigation by an
instructor/examiner in our club. The question is, do the PTS really
require a slip all the way to landing without ever touching the
spoilers?

(Why? We fly from a short runway, surrounded by houses and trees, and
we have modern, low drag gliders rather than 2-33s. For us, this is a
chancy maneuver with an experienced instructor in back, and clearly
dangerous to send solo students off to practice it on their own.)

It turns out the answer is no; not only is the maneuver not part of
the PTS, the FAA says examiners should not ask for it. But many
examiners and FSDOs don't know this, and think that the maneuver is
required.

The official guidance is in the January 2000 designee update. Here's
the relevant text:

We have had questions on whether the applicant
should complete the landing, with or without the
use of drag devices.

There was never any intent to require an applicant to
complete the landing without the use of drag
devices. The applicant is only required to
demonstrate a slip (forward or side) without using
drag devices, to position the glider for a safe
landing. Element 6 of the TASK states; "make
smooth, proper, and positive control applications
during recovery from the slip." Once this has been
accomplished, the maneuver being evaluated is
over. The applicant then lands the glider within the
designated landing area, using drag devices as
appropriate.

Most important for examiner standardization, the
examiner should not add or decrease elements to
this task, or any other task, by asking the applicant
to do more or less than is required.

The direct link is below, but will get broken up. You can find it by
googling "faa desingee update."

John Cochrane BB

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/designee_news/designee_updates/media/2000/2000_01_Update.pdf

[Nyal Williams]

Instructors who attend CFI-G re-validation clinics
know this; it is discussed there regularly. Even if
you (CFIs at large) get your renewal via powered aircraft
venues or by having large numbers of successful candidates,
it is a good idea to attend these clinics for the knowledgeable
and sometimes heated discussions with a room full of
CFI-Gs.

At 15:24 15 April 2007, Bb wrote:
>RAS fans may be interested in the results of an investigation
>by an
>instructor/examiner in our club. The question is, do
>the PTS really
>require a slip all the way to landing without ever
>touching the
>spoilers?
>
>(Why? We fly from a short runway, surrounded by houses
>and trees, and
>we have modern, low drag gliders rather than 2-33s.
>For us, this is a
>chancy maneuver with an experienced instructor in back,
>and clearly
>dangerous to send solo students off to practice it
>on their own.)
>
>It turns out the answer is no; not only is the maneuver
>not part of
>the PTS, the FAA says examiners should not ask for
>it. But many
>examiners and FSDOs don't know this, and think that
>the maneuver is
>required.
>
>The official guidance is in the January 2000 designee
>update. Here's
>the relevant text:
>
>We have had questions on whether the applicant
>should complete the landing, with or without the
>use of drag devices.
>
>There was never any intent to require an applicant
>to
>complete the landing without the use of drag
>devices. The applicant is only required to
>demonstrate a slip (forward or side) without using
>drag devices, to position the glider for a safe
>landing. Element 6 of the TASK states; 'make
>smooth, proper, and positive control applications
>during recovery from the slip.' Once this has been
>accomplished, the maneuver being evaluated is
>over. The applicant then lands the glider within the
>designated landing area, using drag devices as
>appropriate.
>
>Most important for examiner standardization, the
>examiner should not add or decrease elements to
>this task, or any other task, by asking the applicant
>to do more or less than is required.
>
>The direct link is below, but will get broken up. You
>can find it by
>googling 'faa desingee update.'
>
>John Cochrane BB
>
>http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegat
>>ions/designee_news/designee_updates/media/2000/2000_01_Update.pdf
>
>

[Bill Daniels]

You are correct on both points. It isn't required and many CFIG's & DPE's
don't know that. In fact, as you also point out, there is danger involved.
A danger is that a slip may taught as an alternative to spoilers - a trick
to have in your back pocket "just in case".

If a pilot of a slick, high performance glider mis-identifies the spoiler
handle and, seeing no result from whatever handle he is pulling, reverts to
a slip to complete the landing, he will almost certainly overshoot. Better
training is to teach the pilot to identify why the 'spoilers' are having no
effect - i.e. look at the handle.

High performance gliders will slip nicely, but the resulting descent rate is
often not high enough for a normal approach and landing - particularly not
if the approach is begun with too much energy.

I'm glad to see the FAA clarifying the slip requirement in the PTS.

Bill Daniels


"BB" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> RAS fans may be interested in the results of an investigation by an
> instructor/examiner in our club. The question is, do the PTS really
> require a slip all the way to landing without ever touching the
> spoilers?
>
> (Why? We fly from a short runway, surrounded by houses and trees, and
> we have modern, low drag gliders rather than 2-33s. For us, this is a
> chancy maneuver with an experienced instructor in back, and clearly
> dangerous to send solo students off to practice it on their own.)
>
> It turns out the answer is no; not only is the maneuver not part of
> the PTS, the FAA says examiners should not ask for it. But many
> examiners and FSDOs don't know this, and think that the maneuver is
> required.
>
> The official guidance is in the January 2000 designee update. Here's
> the relevant text:
>
> We have had questions on whether the applicant
> should complete the landing, with or without the
> use of drag devices.
>
> There was never any intent to require an applicant to
> complete the landing without the use of drag
> devices. The applicant is only required to
> demonstrate a slip (forward or side) without using
> drag devices, to position the glider for a safe
> landing. Element 6 of the TASK states; "make
> smooth, proper, and positive control applications
> during recovery from the slip." Once this has been
> accomplished, the maneuver being evaluated is
> over. The applicant then lands the glider within the
> designated landing area, using drag devices as
> appropriate.
>
> Most important for examiner standardization, the
> examiner should not add or decrease elements to
> this task, or any other task, by asking the applicant
> to do more or less than is required.
>
> The direct link is below, but will get broken up. You can find it by
> googling "faa desingee update."
>
> John Cochrane BB
>
> http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/designee_news/designee_updates/media/2000/2000_01_Update.pdf
>

[Bert Willing]

With a Janus, DuoDiscus, ASW19... it is certainly a very efficient
alternative to airbreaks.

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
. ..
> You are correct on both points. It isn't required and many CFIG's & DPE's
> don't know that. In fact, as you also point out, there is danger
> involved. A danger is that a slip may taught as an alternative to
> spoilers - a trick to have in your back pocket "just in case".
>
> If a pilot of a slick, high performance glider mis-identifies the spoiler
> handle and, seeing no result from whatever handle he is pulling, reverts
> to a slip to complete the landing, he will almost certainly overshoot.
> Better training is to teach the pilot to identify why the 'spoilers' are
> having no effect - i.e. look at the handle.
>
> High performance gliders will slip nicely, but the resulting descent rate
> is often not high enough for a normal approach and landing - particularly
> not if the approach is begun with too much energy.
>
> I'm glad to see the FAA clarifying the slip requirement in the PTS.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>
> "BB" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> RAS fans may be interested in the results of an investigation by an
>> instructor/examiner in our club. The question is, do the PTS really
>> require a slip all the way to landing without ever touching the
>> spoilers?
>>
>> (Why? We fly from a short runway, surrounded by houses and trees, and
>> we have modern, low drag gliders rather than 2-33s. For us, this is a
>> chancy maneuver with an experienced instructor in back, and clearly
>> dangerous to send solo students off to practice it on their own.)
>>
>> It turns out the answer is no; not only is the maneuver not part of
>> the PTS, the FAA says examiners should not ask for it. But many
>> examiners and FSDOs don't know this, and think that the maneuver is
>> required.
>>
>> The official guidance is in the January 2000 designee update. Here's
>> the relevant text:
>>
>> We have had questions on whether the applicant
>> should complete the landing, with or without the
>> use of drag devices.
>>
>> There was never any intent to require an applicant to
>> complete the landing without the use of drag
>> devices. The applicant is only required to
>> demonstrate a slip (forward or side) without using
>> drag devices, to position the glider for a safe
>> landing. Element 6 of the TASK states; "make
>> smooth, proper, and positive control applications
>> during recovery from the slip." Once this has been
>> accomplished, the maneuver being evaluated is
>> over. The applicant then lands the glider within the
>> designated landing area, using drag devices as
>> appropriate.
>>
>> Most important for examiner standardization, the
>> examiner should not add or decrease elements to
>> this task, or any other task, by asking the applicant
>> to do more or less than is required.
>>
>> The direct link is below, but will get broken up. You can find it by
>> googling "faa desingee update."
>>
>> John Cochrane BB
>>
>> http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/designee_news/designee_updates/media/2000/2000_01_Update.pdf
>>
>
>

[Bill Baker[_2_]]

>(Why? We fly from a short runway, surrounded by houses
>and trees, and
>we have modern, low drag gliders rather than 2-33s.
>For us, this is a
>chancy maneuver with an experienced instructor in back,
>and clearly
>dangerous to send solo students off to practice it
>on their own.)

What is the length of your runway?
Why is it a chancy maneuver with an experienced instructor
in back?
Do your instructors send solo students off to practice
rope breaks on their own?

[Andy[_1_]]

On Apr 16, 12:15 am, "Bert Willing" <willing_no_spam_ple...@ir-
microsystems.com> wrote:
> With a Janus, DuoDiscus, ASW19... it is certainly a very efficient
> alternative to airbreaks.


For the ASW-19b the slip is also a very effective augmentation to
full airbrakes. I regularly practiced full rudder, full airbrake,
slips and used the technique more than once in a tight off airport
landing.

Andy

[Roger Worden]

The first FAA examiner I encountered misinterpreted the PTS as you
describe... insisting on slipping all the way to landing without spoilers. I
canceled my test when I learned that, since I had not been trained on it.
After trying it a few times with and without an instructor, we concluded
that it was unlikely to be accomplished by a student pilot within the
allowed distance. I researched it and found the designee update... went back
to the FAA... and found that the guy had retired! The next guy understood
the actual requirement. This caused me about a 2-month delay in taking my
test.

"BB" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> RAS fans may be interested in the results of an investigation by an
> instructor/examiner in our club. The question is, do the PTS really
> require a slip all the way to landing without ever touching the
> spoilers?
>
> (Why? We fly from a short runway, surrounded by houses and trees, and
> we have modern, low drag gliders rather than 2-33s. For us, this is a
> chancy maneuver with an experienced instructor in back, and clearly
> dangerous to send solo students off to practice it on their own.)
>
> It turns out the answer is no; not only is the maneuver not part of
> the PTS, the FAA says examiners should not ask for it. But many
> examiners and FSDOs don't know this, and think that the maneuver is
> required.
>
> The official guidance is in the January 2000 designee update. Here's
> the relevant text:
>
> We have had questions on whether the applicant
> should complete the landing, with or without the
> use of drag devices.
>
> There was never any intent to require an applicant to
> complete the landing without the use of drag
> devices. The applicant is only required to
> demonstrate a slip (forward or side) without using
> drag devices, to position the glider for a safe
> landing. Element 6 of the TASK states; "make
> smooth, proper, and positive control applications
> during recovery from the slip." Once this has been
> accomplished, the maneuver being evaluated is
> over. The applicant then lands the glider within the
> designated landing area, using drag devices as
> appropriate.
>
> Most important for examiner standardization, the
> examiner should not add or decrease elements to
> this task, or any other task, by asking the applicant
> to do more or less than is required.
>
> The direct link is below, but will get broken up. You can find it by
> googling "faa desingee update."
>
> John Cochrane BB
>
> http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/designee_news/designee_updates/media/2000/2000_01_Update.pdf
>