Low flight and wildlife

[Mxsmanic]

I see on a sectional chart a box that says "The Islands, Rocks, and Reefs
along the Pacific Coast-Line from 42°00'N to 46°00'N are National Wildlife
Refuges. Low flights may disturb wildlife resulting in a violation of Federal
law."

Unfortunately, the chart doesn't say what constitutes "low flight." What
altitudes do they have in mind?

Also, when there are areas that say "Pilots are requested to maintain a
minimum altitude of xxxx' AGL ..." just how strong a "request" is it? What
happens if you fail to heed the request?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[rq3]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> What happens if you fail to heed the request?

Absolutely nothing. The wildlife on the Pacific Coast can't hear your
Microsoft game located in Paris, France.

Rip

[Jim Stewart]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> I see on a sectional chart a box that says "The Islands, Rocks, and Reefs
> along the Pacific Coast-Line from 42°00'N to 46°00'N are National Wildlife
> Refuges. Low flights may disturb wildlife resulting in a violation of Federal
> law."
>
> Unfortunately, the chart doesn't say what constitutes "low flight." What
> altitudes do they have in mind?
>
> Also, when there are areas that say "Pilots are requested to maintain a
> minimum altitude of xxxx' AGL ..." just how strong a "request" is it? What
> happens if you fail to heed the request?

2000' AGL

[Paul kgyy]

On Apr 17, 2:04 pm, rq3 > wrote:
> Mxsmanic wrote:
> > What happens if you fail to heed the request?
>
> Absolutely nothing. The wildlife on the Pacific Coast can't hear your
> Microsoft game located in Paris, France.
>
> Rip

Give him a break - he did buy a sectional :-)

[Kev]

On Apr 17, 3:04 pm, rq3 > wrote:
> Mxsmanic wrote:
> > What happens if you fail to heed the request?
>
> Absolutely nothing. The wildlife on the Pacific Coast can't hear your
> Microsoft game located in Paris, France.

Hahaha! What an ORIGINAL joke !! A real kneeslapper !!
Yessirreebob... you sure know how to come up some zingers, boy I can
tell ya.

Hint: don't quite your day job yet.

[rq3]

Great. Now all he has to do is invest the time to study his new
sectional BEFORE he starts in with his inane questions.

Rip

Paul kgyy wrote:
> On Apr 17, 2:04 pm, rq3 > wrote:
>> Mxsmanic wrote:
>>> What happens if you fail to heed the request?
>> Absolutely nothing. The wildlife on the Pacific Coast can't hear your
>> Microsoft game located in Paris, France.
>>
>> Rip
>
> Give him a break - he did buy a sectional :-)
>

[rq3]

Kev, sarcasm isn't necessarily meant to be humorous. Your own post is a
terrific example. But thanks for the tip.

Rip

Kev wrote:
> On Apr 17, 3:04 pm, rq3 > wrote:
>> Mxsmanic wrote:
>>> What happens if you fail to heed the request?
>> Absolutely nothing. The wildlife on the Pacific Coast can't hear your
>> Microsoft game located in Paris, France.
>
> Hahaha! What an ORIGINAL joke !! A real kneeslapper !!
> Yessirreebob... you sure know how to come up some zingers, boy I can
> tell ya.
>
> Hint: don't quite your day job yet.
>

[BT]

it is on the cover of the sectional

"Paul kgyy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Apr 17, 2:04 pm, rq3 > wrote:
>> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> > What happens if you fail to heed the request?
>>
>> Absolutely nothing. The wildlife on the Pacific Coast can't hear your
>> Microsoft game located in Paris, France.
>>
>> Rip
>
> Give him a break - he did buy a sectional :-)
>

[muff528]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>I see on a sectional chart a box that says "The Islands, Rocks, and Reefs
> along the Pacific Coast-Line from 42°00'N to 46°00'N are National Wildlife
> Refuges. Low flights may disturb wildlife resulting in a violation of
> Federal
> law."

Something should be done about wildlife breaking federal law.

>
> Unfortunately, the chart doesn't say what constitutes "low flight." What
> altitudes do they have in mind?

Low enough to scare the animals.

>
> Also, when there are areas that say "Pilots are requested to maintain a
> minimum altitude of xxxx' AGL ..." just how strong a "request" is it?

Stronger than a UN mandate but not as strong as a non-binding resolution.
Somewhere between a "double-dog dare" and forced community service.

>What
> happens if you fail to heed the request?

The wildlife gets disturbed.

>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Sorry..... couldn't help but inject a little corny humor since I don't know
any legitimate answers to these questions. :-)

Don't take offense mx, I'm "strongly" on your side. ;-)

BSBCU, TP

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> I see on a sectional chart a box that says "The Islands, Rocks, and
> Reefs along the Pacific Coast-Line from 42°00'N to 46°00'N are
> National Wildlife Refuges. Low flights may disturb wildlife resulting
> in a violation of Federal law."
>
> Unfortunately, the chart doesn't say what constitutes "low flight."
> What altitudes do they have in mind?

S\Doesn't matter,. You'll never fly over them.



Berti e

[Sylvain]

muff528 wrote:

> Something should be done about wildlife breaking federal law.

Which is why we have a constitutional right to harm bears.


> Low enough to scare the animals.

From memories of ridge soaring (sailplanes) in Ireland, I remember
the three important altitudes: high enough that the sheep ignore you
(plenty safe); high enough that the sheep start running away from you
(still safe enough); high enough that the sheep start jumping up (time
to pay real close attention)...

> The wildlife gets disturbed.

Actually considering the amount of widlife which has no problem settling
down near airports and/or military training grounds, I'd say it would take
a lot to disturb them.

--Sylvain

[Maxwell]

"Jim Stewart" > wrote in message
.. .

>
> 2000' AGL
>

So when they fly above 2000, you can go ahead and shoot'em?????

[Jim Stewart]

Sylvain wrote:

>
>> The wildlife gets disturbed.
>
> Actually considering the amount of widlife which has no problem settling
> down near airports and/or military training grounds, I'd say it would take
> a lot to disturb them.

I suspect the real reason is so that the
Sierra Club doesn't get disturbed.

[ManhattanMan]

Paul kgyy wrote:
>
> Give him a break - he did buy a sectional :-)


Shirley, you jest.. They're available online........

And why do I get the feeling mx has a sockpuppet on so many threads,
including this one??

[Mark T. Dame]

Maxwell wrote:
> "Jim Stewart" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>> 2000' AGL
>
> So when they fly above 2000, you can go ahead and shoot'em?????

Only if the wing mount guns are properly STC'ed.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## CP-ASEL, AGI
## <insert tail number here>
## KHAO, KISZ
"Individually twisted."
-- My pretzel box

[Maxwell]

"Mark T. Dame" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell wrote:
>> "Jim Stewart" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>> 2000' AGL
>>
>> So when they fly above 2000, you can go ahead and shoot'em?????
>
> Only if the wing mount guns are properly STC'ed.
>
>

I'm think'en just hang the Long Tom out the side window of a cub.

But all jokes aside, I bet ya a nickle it's been done before.

[Mxsmanic]

Maxwell writes:

> But all jokes aside, I bet ya a nickle it's been done before.

Dead birds tell no tales.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Morgans]

"Maxwell" > wrote

> I'm think'en just hang the Long Tom out the side window of a cub.
>
> But all jokes aside, I bet ya a nickle it's been done before.

Remember the story of the drunk flyer, that shot his own plane, while
hunting from the air?

Shot himself right out of the sky, as I remember.

'Course, that could just be another urban legend. <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Maxwell" > wrote
>
>> I'm think'en just hang the Long Tom out the side window of a cub.
>>
>> But all jokes aside, I bet ya a nickle it's been done before.
>
> Remember the story of the drunk flyer, that shot his own plane, while
> hunting from the air?
>
> Shot himself right out of the sky, as I remember.
>
> 'Course, that could just be another urban legend. <g>
> --
> Jim in NC

I knew a guy that was shot down by one of his own waist gunners - does that
count? The gun mount broke and the gunner didn't let go of the trigger as he
(and the gun) fell backwards...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Margy Natalie]

Morgans wrote:
>
> "Maxwell" > wrote
>
>> I'm think'en just hang the Long Tom out the side window of a cub.
>>
>> But all jokes aside, I bet ya a nickle it's been done before.
>
>
> Remember the story of the drunk flyer, that shot his own plane, while
> hunting from the air?
>
> Shot himself right out of the sky, as I remember.
>
> 'Course, that could just be another urban legend. <g>
Not an urban legend. There was a write up of it some aviation book and
the NTSB apparently said something like, if that one guy hadn't lived a
few days and told us what happened we would have NEVER imagined this!

Margy

[Maxwell]

"Margy Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Morgans wrote:
>>
>> "Maxwell" > wrote
>>
>>> I'm think'en just hang the Long Tom out the side window of a cub.
>>>
>>> But all jokes aside, I bet ya a nickle it's been done before.
>>
>>
>> Remember the story of the drunk flyer, that shot his own plane, while
>> hunting from the air?
>>
>> Shot himself right out of the sky, as I remember.
>>
>> 'Course, that could just be another urban legend. <g>
> Not an urban legend. There was a write up of it some aviation book and
> the NTSB apparently said something like, if that one guy hadn't lived a
> few days and told us what happened we would have NEVER imagined this!
>

I can certainly imagine it. I bet there have been a lot of Cyotes shot from
a cub, or at least shot at.

[Jim Logajan]

Margy Natalie > wrote:
> Morgans wrote:
>>
>> "Maxwell" > wrote
>>
>>> I'm think'en just hang the Long Tom out the side window of a cub.
>>>
>>> But all jokes aside, I bet ya a nickle it's been done before.
>>
>>
>> Remember the story of the drunk flyer, that shot his own plane, while
>> hunting from the air?
>>
>> Shot himself right out of the sky, as I remember.
>>
>> 'Course, that could just be another urban legend. <g>
> Not an urban legend. There was a write up of it some aviation book and
> the NTSB apparently said something like, if that one guy hadn't lived a
> few days and told us what happened we would have NEVER imagined this!
>
> Margy

I think this may be the NTSB report for the incident in question:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020328X00418&key=1

Or maybe it was this one:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020917X04558&key=1

Other hunts gone bad:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050617X00803&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X06815&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X06971&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X09702&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X18740&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X20690&key=1

[Margy Natalie]

Jim Logajan wrote:
> Margy Natalie > wrote:
>
>>Morgans wrote:
>>
>>>"Maxwell" > wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'm think'en just hang the Long Tom out the side window of a cub.
>>>>
>>>>But all jokes aside, I bet ya a nickle it's been done before.
>>>
>>>
>>>Remember the story of the drunk flyer, that shot his own plane, while
>>>hunting from the air?
>>>
>>>Shot himself right out of the sky, as I remember.
>>>
>>>'Course, that could just be another urban legend. <g>
>>
>>Not an urban legend. There was a write up of it some aviation book and
>>the NTSB apparently said something like, if that one guy hadn't lived a
>>few days and told us what happened we would have NEVER imagined this!
>>
>>Margy
>
>
> I think this may be the NTSB report for the incident in question:
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020328X00418&key=1
>
> Or maybe it was this one:
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020917X04558&key=1
>
> Other hunts gone bad:
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050617X00803&key=1
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X06815&key=1
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X06971&key=1
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X09702&key=1
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X18740&key=1
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X20690&key=1

As I recall these idiots were trying to shoot an eagle. IMHO they
deserved to go down. They also had picked up the aircraft at one
airport, flown to another airport to pick up their buddies and the beer,
then went flying...

[ManhattanMan]

Maxwell wrote:
>
> I can certainly imagine it. I bet there have been a lot of Cyotes
> shot from a cub, or at least shot at.

Lots of them up in Nebraska in the 50's when I was a kid. If nothing else
they'd direct all the rednecks in the pickups which way to go.....

[Jim Stewart]

Jim Logajan wrote:

> Other hunts gone bad:
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050617X00803&key=1

This guy hit his own wake in a 360 and crashed.

The circle is complete.

[Maxwell]

"ManhattanMan" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell wrote:
>>
>> I can certainly imagine it. I bet there have been a lot of Cyotes
>> shot from a cub, or at least shot at.
>
> Lots of them up in Nebraska in the 50's when I was a kid. If nothing else
> they'd direct all the rednecks in the pickups which way to go.....
>

I have seen a few hunts here in Oklahoma too. I have never participate in
hunt, but I have chased them in an ultralight. Probably right up there with
the most fun I have ever had flying.

[Maxwell]

"Jim Stewart" > wrote in message
. ..
> Jim Logajan wrote:
>
>> Other hunts gone bad:
>>
>> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050617X00803&key=1
>
> This guy hit his own wake in a 360 and crashed.
>
> The circle is complete.

Indeed!!!!

[Newps]

Margy Natalie wrote:

>> Remember the story of the drunk flyer, that shot his own plane, while
>> hunting from the air?
>>
>> Shot himself right out of the sky, as I remember.
>>
>> 'Course, that could just be another urban legend. <g>
>
> Not an urban legend. There was a write up of it some aviation book and
> the NTSB apparently said something like, if that one guy hadn't lived a
> few days and told us what happened we would have NEVER imagined this!




Happened here in Montana. They weren't drunk and they both lived.
Backseat passenger was the shooter. Problem was he was using a semi
automatic shotgun. He started to drop the gun and started reaching for
it. Before he knows it 3-4 shots ring out. He about blew the wing off
the plane. The damage caused the plane to be uncontrollable. They
started spinng down. Luckily they were only a couple hundred feet in
the air. Big crash. Both guys hurt but survive. Entire operation
perfectly legal. That's how we hunt coyotes here in the West. The USDA
also hunts coyotes with Cubs and helicopters as well as private parties.

[Newps]

Margy Natalie wrote:


>
>
> As I recall these idiots were trying to shoot an eagle. IMHO they
> deserved to go down. They also had picked up the aircraft at one
> airport, flown to another airport to pick up their buddies and the beer,
> then went flying...


You haven't recalled one thing right so far. There was no alcohol, no
other people involved. And hunting eagles from a plane? That doesn't
even make sense. Hunting coyotes from aircraft is an everyday event out
here.

[Maxwell]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
> > Margy Natalie wrote:
> >> As I recall these idiots were trying to shoot an eagle. IMHO they
>> deserved to go down. They also had picked up the aircraft at one
>> airport, flown to another airport to pick up their buddies and the beer,
>> then went flying...
>
> You haven't recalled one thing right so far. There was no alcohol, no
> other people involved. And hunting eagles from a plane? That doesn't
> even make sense. Hunting coyotes from aircraft is an everyday event out
> here.

Sounds wild, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised. There are a lot of crazy
people out there, and some just happen to be pilots.

[Maxwell]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> Happened here in Montana. They weren't drunk and they both lived.
> Backseat passenger was the shooter. Problem was he was using a semi
> automatic shotgun. He started to drop the gun and started reaching for
> it. Before he knows it 3-4 shots ring out. He about blew the wing off
> the plane. The damage caused the plane to be uncontrollable. They
> started spinng down. Luckily they were only a couple hundred feet in the
> air. Big crash. Both guys hurt but survive. Entire operation perfectly
> legal. That's how we hunt coyotes here in the West. The USDA also hunts
> coyotes with Cubs and helicopters as well as private parties.

In all the hunts I'm aware of in Oklahoma, the shooters were always on the
ground. The pilot usually flew alone and was just the spotter or tried to
drive the cyotes to the shooters.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Maxwell" > wrote:

> "Newps" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >
> > Happened here in Montana. They weren't drunk and they both lived.
> > Backseat passenger was the shooter. Problem was he was using a semi
> > automatic shotgun. He started to drop the gun and started reaching for
> > it. Before he knows it 3-4 shots ring out. He about blew the wing off
> > the plane. The damage caused the plane to be uncontrollable. They
> > started spinng down. Luckily they were only a couple hundred feet in the
> > air. Big crash. Both guys hurt but survive. Entire operation perfectly
> > legal. That's how we hunt coyotes here in the West. The USDA also hunts
> > coyotes with Cubs and helicopters as well as private parties.
>
> In all the hunts I'm aware of in Oklahoma, the shooters were always on the
> ground. The pilot usually flew alone and was just the spotter or tried to
> drive the cyotes to the shooters.

When I was growing up in Illinios in the 40s and 50s, people used to
hunt foxes from Cubs in the winter. I recall an article about a pair
that bagged over 100 in about a month.

There was another case where the shooter (shotgun) aimed at a fox and
blew the tip off the prop. That made for an immediate forced landing!

[Rich Ahrens]

Newps wrote:
>
> Margy Natalie wrote:
>> As I recall these idiots were trying to shoot an eagle. IMHO they
>> deserved to go down. They also had picked up the aircraft at one
>> airport, flown to another airport to pick up their buddies and the
>> beer, then went flying...
>
>
> You haven't recalled one thing right so far. There was no alcohol, no
> other people involved. And hunting eagles from a plane? That doesn't
> even make sense. Hunting coyotes from aircraft is an everyday event out
> here.

Nope, she has it dead on, except that it was a hawk instead of an eagle.
The whole story is documented in the book "They Called It Pilot Error"
by Robert L. Cohn. The pilot was a former student pilot who had quit
training 10 months earlier and rented a Skywagon by forging a logbook.
He also had had his driver's license suspended for his third DUI. He
then flew to another field where he picked up three buddies, a case of
beer, and four shotguns. Then they flew to a state park where they shot
at birds from the air until the accident.

[Maxwell]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Maxwell" > wrote:
>
>> "Newps" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>> >
>> > Happened here in Montana. They weren't drunk and they both lived.
>> > Backseat passenger was the shooter. Problem was he was using a semi
>> > automatic shotgun. He started to drop the gun and started reaching for
>> > it. Before he knows it 3-4 shots ring out. He about blew the wing off
>> > the plane. The damage caused the plane to be uncontrollable. They
>> > started spinng down. Luckily they were only a couple hundred feet in
>> > the
>> > air. Big crash. Both guys hurt but survive. Entire operation
>> > perfectly
>> > legal. That's how we hunt coyotes here in the West. The USDA also
>> > hunts
>> > coyotes with Cubs and helicopters as well as private parties.
>>
>> In all the hunts I'm aware of in Oklahoma, the shooters were always on
>> the
>> ground. The pilot usually flew alone and was just the spotter or tried to
>> drive the cyotes to the shooters.
>
> When I was growing up in Illinios in the 40s and 50s, people used to
> hunt foxes from Cubs in the winter. I recall an article about a pair
> that bagged over 100 in about a month.
>
> There was another case where the shooter (shotgun) aimed at a fox and
> blew the tip off the prop. That made for an immediate forced landing!

I bet he never heard the end of that one! I think I would just have to find
a hole somewhere and crawl in it.

[[email protected]]

On Apr 19, 4:55 am, Newps > wrote:
> Margy Natalie wrote:
> >> Remember the story of the drunk flyer, that shot his own plane, while
> >> hunting from the air?
>
> >> Shot himself right out of the sky, as I remember.
>
> >> 'Course, that could just be another urban legend. <g>
>
> > Not an urban legend. There was a write up of it some aviation book and
> > the NTSB apparently said something like, if that one guy hadn't lived a
> > few days and told us what happened we would have NEVER imagined this!
>
> Happened here in Montana. They weren't drunk and they both lived.
> Backseat passenger was the shooter. Problem was he was using a semi
> automatic shotgun. He started to drop the gun and started reaching for
> it. Before he knows it 3-4 shots ring out. He about blew the wing off
> the plane. The damage caused the plane to be uncontrollable. They
> started spinng down. Luckily they were only a couple hundred feet in
> the air. Big crash. Both guys hurt but survive. Entire operation
> perfectly legal. That's how we hunt coyotes here in the West. The USDA
> also hunts coyotes with Cubs and helicopters as well as private parties.

Huh, you hunt coyotes by shooting your wings off?

-Kees

[ManhattanMan]

wrote:
> Huh, you hunt coyotes by shooting your wings off?
>

If you are REALLY good, you land on the coyote.... :)

[Jim Logajan]

Rich Ahrens > wrote:
> Newps wrote:
>>
>> Margy Natalie wrote:
>>> As I recall these idiots were trying to shoot an eagle. IMHO they
>>> deserved to go down. They also had picked up the aircraft at one
>>> airport, flown to another airport to pick up their buddies and the
>>> beer, then went flying...
>>
>>
>> You haven't recalled one thing right so far. There was no alcohol,
>> no other people involved. And hunting eagles from a plane? That
>> doesn't even make sense. Hunting coyotes from aircraft is an
>> everyday event out here.
>
> Nope, she has it dead on, except that it was a hawk instead of an
> eagle. The whole story is documented in the book "They Called It Pilot
> Error" by Robert L. Cohn.

Ah - thanks for the source! Sad to say, though, that according to the
reviews of that book on www.amazon.com, Cohn's account may be a work of
fiction. It appears Cohn allegedly states in the forward of that book that
the book is a work of fiction - despite the subtitle claiming the opposite.

[Rich Ahrens]

Jim Logajan wrote:
> Rich Ahrens > wrote:
>> Newps wrote:
>>> Margy Natalie wrote:
>>>> As I recall these idiots were trying to shoot an eagle. IMHO they
>>>> deserved to go down. They also had picked up the aircraft at one
>>>> airport, flown to another airport to pick up their buddies and the
>>>> beer, then went flying...
>>>
>>> You haven't recalled one thing right so far. There was no alcohol,
>>> no other people involved. And hunting eagles from a plane? That
>>> doesn't even make sense. Hunting coyotes from aircraft is an
>>> everyday event out here.
>> Nope, she has it dead on, except that it was a hawk instead of an
>> eagle. The whole story is documented in the book "They Called It Pilot
>> Error" by Robert L. Cohn.
>
> Ah - thanks for the source! Sad to say, though, that according to the
> reviews of that book on www.amazon.com, Cohn's account may be a work of
> fiction. It appears Cohn allegedly states in the forward of that book that
> the book is a work of fiction - despite the subtitle claiming the opposite.

I have the book at home - I'll have to check out the foreward. It's
certainly sold and promoted as if the events are factual.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Apr 19, 4:55 am, Newps > wrote:

>> perfectly legal. That's how we hunt coyotes here in the West. The USDA
>> also hunts coyotes with Cubs and helicopters as well as private parties.
>
> Huh, you hunt coyotes by shooting your wings off?
>
Must be tough to get the wings onto the BBQ grill.

[Erik]

Jim Stewart wrote:
> Jim Logajan wrote:
>
>> Other hunts gone bad:
>>
>> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050617X00803&key=1
>
>
> This guy hit his own wake in a 360 and crashed.
>
> The circle is complete.

But that isn't possible.... ...

[Jim Logajan]

Erik > wrote:
> Jim Stewart wrote:
>> Jim Logajan wrote:
>>
>>> Other hunts gone bad:
>>>
>>> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050617X00803&key=1
>>
>>
>> This guy hit his own wake in a 360 and crashed.
>>
>> The circle is complete.
>
> But that isn't possible.... ...

Shirley you're joking! :-) Running through their own wake turbulence:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X19952&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X27765&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X26040&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X30260&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001214X36964&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020917X03612&key=1

[Jim Stewart]

Jim Logajan wrote:
> Erik > wrote:
>> Jim Stewart wrote:
>>> Jim Logajan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Other hunts gone bad:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050617X00803&key=1
>>>
>>> This guy hit his own wake in a 360 and crashed.
>>>
>>> The circle is complete.
>> But that isn't possible.... ...
>
> Shirley you're joking! :-) Running through their own wake turbulence:
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X19952&key=1
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X27765&key=1
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X26040&key=1
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X30260&key=1
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001214X36964&key=1
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020917X03612&key=1


I posted an inquiry over at PPRuNe about driving
transport aircraft through their own wakes and
got a lively response...

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=272265

[Erik]

Jim Stewart wrote:

> Jim Logajan wrote:
>
>> Shirley you're joking! :-) Running through their own wake turbulence:
>>
> I posted an inquiry over at PPRuNe about driving
> transport aircraft through their own wakes and
> got a lively response...
>
> http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=272265
>

Don't call me Shirley!

But I was making a facaetious joke referring to the other thread
that claimed it was impossible to run through your own wake after
a level 360 steep turn...

[Kev]

On Apr 19, 5:47 pm, Jim Stewart > wrote:
> I posted an inquiry over at PPRuNe about driving
> transport aircraft through their own wakes and
> got a lively response...
>
> http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=272265- Hide quoted text -

Jim, thanks for doing that. Pretty much the same responses as here...
that is, the wake usually descends but it depends on the atmospheric
conditions.

And of course there aren't a ton of jerk-off answers like you get
here.

The most telling part was about how sims don't do turn wakes by
themselves. One tester wrote: "Some wake turbulence is simulated, by
the instructor! If a student has done a perfect or near-perfect steep
turn in the simulator, I have been known to inject 2 to 3 seconds of
light turbulence just as they roll out on a 360° turn.... a small ego
boost to the student you see.. Amazing how many (all?) thought that it
was real. [that is, from the sim] Perhaps I'm guilty of originating
an aviation myth, well, I had to leave my mark somewhere"

Regards, Kev

[Newps]

Maxwell wrote:

> "Newps" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>Happened here in Montana. They weren't drunk and they both lived.
>>Backseat passenger was the shooter. Problem was he was using a semi
>>automatic shotgun. He started to drop the gun and started reaching for
>>it. Before he knows it 3-4 shots ring out. He about blew the wing off
>>the plane. The damage caused the plane to be uncontrollable. They
>>started spinng down. Luckily they were only a couple hundred feet in the
>>air. Big crash. Both guys hurt but survive. Entire operation perfectly
>>legal. That's how we hunt coyotes here in the West. The USDA also hunts
>>coyotes with Cubs and helicopters as well as private parties.
>
>
> In all the hunts I'm aware of in Oklahoma, the shooters were always on the
> ground. The pilot usually flew alone and was just the spotter or tried to
> drive the cyotes to the shooters.



They use Greyhound racing dogs for that.

[Newps]

Jim Logajan wrote:

> Rich Ahrens > wrote:
>
>>Newps wrote:
>>
>>>Margy Natalie wrote:
>>>
>>>>As I recall these idiots were trying to shoot an eagle. IMHO they
>>>>deserved to go down. They also had picked up the aircraft at one
>>>>airport, flown to another airport to pick up their buddies and the
>>>>beer, then went flying...
>>>
>>>
>>>You haven't recalled one thing right so far. There was no alcohol,
>>>no other people involved. And hunting eagles from a plane? That
>>>doesn't even make sense. Hunting coyotes from aircraft is an
>>>everyday event out here.
>>
>>Nope, she has it dead on, except that it was a hawk instead of an
>>eagle. The whole story is documented in the book "They Called It Pilot
>>Error" by Robert L. Cohn.
>
>
> Ah - thanks for the source! Sad to say, though, that according to the
> reviews of that book on www.amazon.com, Cohn's account may be a work of
> fiction. It appears Cohn allegedly states in the forward of that book that
> the book is a work of fiction - despite the subtitle claiming the opposite.


It's total fiction.

[Jim Logajan]

Erik > wrote:
> Don't call me Shirley!
>
> But I was making a facaetious joke referring to the other thread
> that claimed it was impossible to run through your own wake after
> a level 360 steep turn...

I saw that other thread and understood the reference Shir..., Erik. ;-)

[Margy Natalie]

Newps wrote:
>
>
> Margy Natalie wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> As I recall these idiots were trying to shoot an eagle. IMHO they
>> deserved to go down. They also had picked up the aircraft at one
>> airport, flown to another airport to pick up their buddies and the
>> beer, then went flying...
>
>
>
> You haven't recalled one thing right so far. There was no alcohol, no
> other people involved. And hunting eagles from a plane? That doesn't
> even make sense. Hunting coyotes from aircraft is an everyday event out
> here.

The one I read involved alcohol for sure. I don't think the eagle was
their first objective, but decided to take a shot at it. It was a
Cessna they had removed the window latch from so they could fully open
the window. One passenger survived for a short period of time, the
others did not. I did not see an NTSB report on it, only what I read in
a book.

Margy

[Mxsmanic]

Jim Stewart writes:

> I posted an inquiry over at PPRuNe about driving
> transport aircraft through their own wakes and
> got a lively response...
>
> http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=272265

Lively but not at all conclusive.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Private]

"Jim Stewart" > wrote in message
.. .
> Jim Logajan wrote:
>> Erik > wrote:
>>> Jim Stewart wrote:
>>>> Jim Logajan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Other hunts gone bad:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050617X00803&key=1
>>>>
>>>> This guy hit his own wake in a 360 and crashed.
>>>>
>>>> The circle is complete.
>>> But that isn't possible.... ...
>>
>> Shirley you're joking! :-) Running through their own wake turbulence:
>>
>> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X19952&key=1
>> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X27765&key=1
>> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X26040&key=1
>> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X30260&key=1
>> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001214X36964&key=1
>> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020917X03612&key=1
>
>
> I posted an inquiry over at PPRuNe about driving
> transport aircraft through their own wakes and
> got a lively response...
>
> http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=272265
>

My aerobatic instructor was always good for an attaboy whenever I managed to
hit my wake when completing a loop. He maintained that it showed good
control of gyroscopic procession when pulling to vertical on entry.

Happy landings,

[Highflyer]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> Happened here in Montana. They weren't drunk and they both lived.
> Backseat passenger was the shooter. Problem was he was using a semi
> automatic shotgun. He started to drop the gun and started reaching for
> it. Before he knows it 3-4 shots ring out. He about blew the wing off
> the plane. The damage caused the plane to be uncontrollable. They
> started spinng down. Luckily they were only a couple hundred feet in the
> air. Big crash. Both guys hurt but survive. Entire operation perfectly
> legal. That's how we hunt coyotes here in the West. The USDA also hunts
> coyotes with Cubs and helicopters as well as private parties.

I learned to fly as a kid to help a neighbor hunt wolves from a Cub. At
that time there was a $35 bounty on timber wolves and it was legal to shoot
them from an airplane. The gunner sat in the back and I flew from the front
seat. My first "interesting" landing occurred when we were tracking a wolf
alongside the edge of a wheatfield and he saw our shadow and jinked to the
side just as the gunner was lining up to shoot. He followed the jink and
shot the wheel off the airplane. He made me land it, even if it was his
airplane! It was two years after that when I went off to the University of
Minnesota in 1955 that I discovered all about CFI, Logbooks, and RULES for
obtaining a license to fly an airplane! Eventually I jumped through all of
the hoops and dotted all the "i's" and crossed all the "t's" and now I are a
licensed commercial pilot! :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

Pinckneyville Flyin for 2007 is coming soon, May 18, 19, and 20. See
unofficial faq at http://www.ousterhout.net/pjy-faq.html