About avoiding airspace and cruising

[Erik]

Not the sicko kind of cruising, either.

A friend of mine bought a house on some large property about
six miles (linearly) away from a towered airport with class D
five miles around it (one protrusion for approaches that I'm not
concerned with).

She's having a barn built and I'd like to fly over and take some
pictures, but this puts me just outside of the airspace and
somewhat inline with where aircraft come in, a somewhat popular
route to arrive from.

This is far enough away that I suspect most traffic is still at
upwards of 2000' or better. I've flown over and found her house,
but it always makes me nervous. Twitchy as a chipmunk in a cat
house. Well, not a cathouse, really, but still.

What's the safest way to do this? (Yes, my piloting is young yet,
but I'm still proud of it.)

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Erik" > wrote

> What's the safest way to do this? (Yes, my piloting is young yet,
> but I'm still proud of it.)

Take an observer along, to help watch for traffic and to take the pictures,
leaving you free to concentrate on your scans?
--
Jim in NC

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

Erik wrote:
>
>What's the safest way to do this? (Yes, my piloting is young yet,
>but I'm still proud of it.)

Technically, if you're outside the class D, you can do whatever you want.
The safest way would be to call the tower, tell them where you are, altitude
and what you'll be doing (i.e. photo mission). They'll advise incoming
traffic to keep an eye out for you. When you're done, just advise the tower
and be on your way.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200704/1

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 09:29:58 -0700, Erik >
wrote in >:

>What's the safest way to do this?

If you are _sure_ of remaining outside of Class D airspace, contact
the tower and advise them that you will be conducting a photo-shoot at
the coordinates of the location (expressed as distance from a VOR on a
given radial). It would also be good to request Radar Traffic
Advisory Service (flight following) from the appropriate approach
control facility prior to alerting the tower controllers.

Outside of Class A, B, and C airspace, you are the Pilot In Command
(PIC) of your flight operations, and it would be inappropriate for you
to request permission from ATC for the flight you describe.

[Erik]

JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:

> Erik wrote:
>
>>What's the safest way to do this? (Yes, my piloting is young yet,
>>but I'm still proud of it.)
>
>
> Technically, if you're outside the class D, you can do whatever you want.
> The safest way would be to call the tower, tell them where you are, altitude
> and what you'll be doing (i.e. photo mission). They'll advise incoming
> traffic to keep an eye out for you. When you're done, just advise the tower
> and be on your way.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>

Thanks

[Erik]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 09:29:58 -0700, Erik >
> wrote in >:
>
>
>>What's the safest way to do this?
>
>
> If you are _sure_ of remaining outside of Class D airspace, contact
> the tower and advise them that you will be conducting a photo-shoot at
> the coordinates of the location (expressed as distance from a VOR on a
> given radial). It would also be good to request Radar Traffic
> Advisory Service (flight following) from the appropriate approach
> control facility prior to alerting the tower controllers.
>
> Outside of Class A, B, and C airspace, you are the Pilot In Command
> (PIC) of your flight operations, and it would be inappropriate for you
> to request permission from ATC for the flight you describe.

Thanks. That's what I thought. Calling the tower when I'm not
entering their airspace seemed wierd to me. There is a GPS in the
aircraft I rent whenever I figure I'm going to do something in the
proximity of airspace so that I know where I'm at positively.

I thought calling the tower and telling them that some jackass will
be flying circles just outside of their airspace was a good idea, too,
I'm always afraid of sounding like a dumbs417 calling towers, though.
I avoid it at every opportunity.

[Jose]

> I'm always afraid of sounding like a dumbs417 calling towers, though.
> I avoid it at every opportunity.

You should practice it at every (reasonable) opportunity. They don't
bite. :)

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:
>
> The safest way would be to call the tower, tell them where you are, altitude
> and what you'll be doing (i.e. photo mission). They'll advise incoming
> traffic to keep an eye out for you. When you're done, just advise the tower
> and be on your way.

This is exactly what I've done in the past.

[Erik]

Jose wrote:
>> I'm always afraid of sounding like a dumbs417 calling towers, though.
>> I avoid it at every opportunity.
>
>
> You should practice it at every (reasonable) opportunity. They don't
> bite. :)
>
> Jose

Unless you do something really dumb.

I was coming in at this very airport once. I'd made my downwind.
Halfway through downwind, tower tells me to extend a little bit
because there's traffic coming in on long final and I'll be behind
them. I acknowledge and start looking for the traffic. The smart
thing would have been to call tower and tell them that I didn't have
the traffic, please call my base, k thnx but I just went on looking,
merrily away. Finally I called and told them that I didn't have the
traffic, please call my base. Long final had already landed and my
downwind (and subsequently the couple of planes behind me) turned out
to be a mile and a half long.

I got into final, made my approach and at about 20' above the runway
getting ready to touchdown, tower advises me to go around.

I think they did that on purpose :)

[Jose]

> ... but I just went on looking,
> merrily away. Finally I called and told them [...]
> and at about 20' above the runway
> getting ready to touchdown, tower advises me to go around.
>
> I think they did that on purpose :)

Good practice! Now when it =really= matters, chances are it will work
out fine.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:00:07 -0700, Erik >
wrote in >:

>Larry Dighera wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 09:29:58 -0700, Erik >
>> wrote in >:
>>
>>
>>>What's the safest way to do this?
>>
>>
>> If you are _sure_ of remaining outside of Class D airspace, contact
>> the tower and advise them that you will be conducting a photo-shoot at
>> the coordinates of the location (expressed as distance from a VOR on a
>> given radial). It would also be good to request Radar Traffic
>> Advisory Service (flight following) from the appropriate approach
>> control facility prior to alerting the tower controllers.
>>
>> Outside of Class A, B, and C airspace, you are the Pilot In Command
>> (PIC) of your flight operations, and it would be inappropriate for you
>> to request permission from ATC for the flight you describe.
>
>Thanks.

You're welcome. And thank you for taking the vindictive to inform
yourself before venturing forth.

>That's what I thought.

Other's may have other good ideas too, like the excellent suggestion
to take along an observer or two. A person to act as photographer or
a second pilot would be even better. Try circling at low level over a
ground feature out in uncongealed airspace, and simulate taking the
photographs in a safer environment first. You'll be better prepared
for the demands of scanning for traffic, controlling the aircraft, and
finding time to frame and focus the camera all simultaneously.

>Calling the tower when I'm not entering their airspace seemed wierd to me.

I understand what you mean, but using common sense to enhance flight
safety in every way possible is the objective, the way I see it.

>There is a GPS in the
>aircraft I rent whenever I figure I'm going to do something in the
>proximity of airspace so that I know where I'm at positively.

It might not be a bad idea to have plotted out the VOR radial and
distance on the ground during your flight planning just in case
there's a Solar Mass Ejection of something that renders the GPS
inoperative. Plan for all the possible contingencies that you are
able to foresee. That's what a reasonable and prudent airman does,
anything less could be construed by the FAA as reckless and careless
under FAR Part 91 Sec. 91.13:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/F4C347A942ECD9DD852566CF00612726?OpenDocument

>I thought calling the tower and telling them that some jackass will
>be flying circles just outside of their airspace was a good idea, too,

I presume you are just being candid among fellow airmen, but in
dealing with ATC and the public, I would always don the most
professional demeanor of which I was capable. That means remaining
dignified, knowing the pertinent regulations, and acting accordingly.
In my opinion, factitiousness is inappropriate when lives are on the
line; dignity and respect will serve better.

>I'm always afraid of sounding like a dumbs417 calling towers, though.
>I avoid it at every opportunity.

That is unfortunate. Communication when it can reduce risk is a
valuable tool.

I suffered from "mike fright" too until I read Bob Gardener's book:


http://www.amazon.com/Say-Again-Please-Guide-Communications/dp/1560275731/
Say Again, Please: Guide to Radio Communications

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:08:22 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote in >:

vindictive == initiative

[Erik]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> You're welcome. And thank you for taking the vindictive to inform
> yourself before venturing forth.

I find that when I am vindictive with ATC, they tend to treat me a
little poorly. :P

> Other's may have other good ideas too, like the excellent suggestion
> to take along an observer or two. A person to act as photographer or
> a second pilot would be even better.

That is the optimal, occasionally another person isn't available, but
it isn't like this is an emergency, so it can be put off until it can
be done safely. I really do want to wind up landing the plane at
home base. Not the hardware store, though.

> I understand what you mean, but using common sense to enhance flight
> safety in every way possible is the objective, the way I see it.

Safety.


> I presume you are just being candid among fellow airmen, but in
> dealing with ATC and the public

Absolutely. I don't call ATC and tell them, "Some jackass will be
making turns around a point 6 miles to your west".... Although,
depending on the controller, there are some there with pretty good
senses of humor and may get the joke, but a bona fide call would be
forthcoming.

[Jose]

> vindictive == initiative

Calling a tail a leg doesn't help a horse to walk.

That's two strikes. :)

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Thomas Borchert]

Erik,

> What's the safest way to do this?
>

Tell the controllers what you want to do, where and at what altitude.
That puts you into radio contact - and you'll be good.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Erik,

> I avoid it at every opportunity.
>

Big mistake. Huge! Many accident reports where one just has to think:
Why didn't he just tell them?

Your original question is the perfect example. Imagine the controllers
have a radar screen and there comes this blip flying in real close to
their airspace and starts circling right where the planes come in. You
better believe they'd love to know what that blip has in mind, however
awkward the guy piloting the blip might explain it ;-) Even if
something like that can't be found in the standard phraseology, if you
make it concise and to the point, everybody will win.

Go become a talker! It's better for you and for everyone around.
--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Erik,

> The smart
> thing would have been to call tower and tell them that I didn't have
> the traffic,
>

So you learned. WHatever you do, don't let them fly the plane. "Unable"
and "unfamiliar" are magic words for you to use.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Larry,

> http://www.amazon.com/Say-Again-Please-Guide-Communications/dp/1560275731/
> Say Again, Please: Guide to Radio Communications
>

I'll second that recommendation strongly.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Erik > wrote:

> Not the sicko kind of cruising, either.
>
> A friend of mine bought a house on some large property about
> six miles (linearly) away from a towered airport with class D
> five miles around it (one protrusion for approaches that I'm not
> concerned with).
>
> She's having a barn built and I'd like to fly over and take some
> pictures, but this puts me just outside of the airspace and
> somewhat inline with where aircraft come in, a somewhat popular
> route to arrive from.
>
> This is far enough away that I suspect most traffic is still at
> upwards of 2000' or better. I've flown over and found her house,
> but it always makes me nervous. Twitchy as a chipmunk in a cat
> house. Well, not a cathouse, really, but still.
>
> What's the safest way to do this? (Yes, my piloting is young yet,
> but I'm still proud of it.)

Just call up the tower and tell them that you will be orbiting at 1500 (or
whatever altitude you pick), near the north (east, whatever) edge of their
airspace. Depending on the tower (i.e. whether they have radar or not),
they may give you a squawk code, or may not. They'll probably just advise
incomming and outgoing flights that you're there, and ask you to just
advise them when you're ready to depart the area.

If nothing else, it satisfies the "establish radio contact" rule, so you
don't have to worry about accidentally encroaching on their airspace and
being in violation.

[Rich Ahrens]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:08:22 GMT, Larry Dighera >
> wrote in >:
>
> vindictive == initiative

And "uncongealed airspace"? Beats the opposite, I guess.

[B A R R Y]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 19:27:05 -0400, Roy Smith > wrote:

>
>Just call up the tower and tell them that you will be orbiting at 1500 (or
>whatever altitude you pick), near the north (east, whatever) edge of their
>airspace.

I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but similar tips can apply to
untowered airports if you're shooting photos or sightseeing near the
pattern.

Announcing your intentions by ANSWERING other aircraft in the pattern
can help everyone's day stay nice.

[John Clear]

In article >,
Erik > wrote:
>Jose wrote:
>>> I'm always afraid of sounding like a dumbs417 calling towers, though.
>>> I avoid it at every opportunity.
>>
>>
>> You should practice it at every (reasonable) opportunity. They don't
>> bite. :)
>>
>> Jose
>
>Unless you do something really dumb.

Even when you do something really dumb, they don't bite.

I was flying into SAC one time, and the tower told me to report
left downwind. I had a brainfart and had my left and right confused,
so I flew a right pattern. The guys in the tower noticed my mistake,
but cleared me to land anyway. I'm sure they made some comments
about my intelligence to each other, but nothing was said over the
radio.

I heard someone else do something similar at PAO, and when it was
pointed out, they responded with "I always get confused when I fly
inverted" and tower replied with "happens to me all the time too".

Talking to tower or approach just takes practice to get comfortable
with it.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[Roy Smith]

In article >, Rich Ahrens >
wrote:

> Larry Dighera wrote:
> > On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:08:22 GMT, Larry Dighera >
> > wrote in >:
> >
> > vindictive == initiative
>
> And "uncongealed airspace"? Beats the opposite, I guess.

fluidic space, anybody?

[[email protected]]

On Apr 20, 5:35 pm, (John Clear) wrote:
> In article >,
>
> Erik > wrote:
> >Jose wrote:
> >>> I'm always afraid of sounding like a dumbs417 calling towers, though.
> >>> I avoid it at every opportunity.
>
> >> You should practice it at every (reasonable) opportunity. They don't
> >> bite. :)
>
> >> Jose
>
> >Unless you do something really dumb.
>
> Even when you do something really dumb, they don't bite.
>
> I was flying into SAC one time, and the tower told me to report
> left downwind. I had a brainfart and had my left and right confused,
> so I flew a right pattern. The guys in the tower noticed my mistake,
> but cleared me to land anyway. I'm sure they made some comments
> about my intelligence to each other, but nothing was said over the
> radio.
>
> I heard someone else do something similar at PAO, and when it was
> pointed out, they responded with "I always get confused when I fly
> inverted" and tower replied with "happens to me all the time too".
>
> Talking to tower or approach just takes practice to get comfortable
> with it.
>
> John
> --
> John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

I've found that some tower folks can be very enjoyable to talk with.
Just don't be funny when there are more than one or two aircraft in
the area. The tower folks have to be on top of the job and
professional.

[Maxwell]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Apr 20, 5:35 pm, (John Clear) wrote:
>
> I've found that some tower folks can be very enjoyable to talk with.
> Just don't be funny when there are more than one or two aircraft in
> the area. The tower folks have to be on top of the job and
> professional.
>

I find it to be about 50/50.

I have to admit having worked with a number of controllers with a good
attitude towards work, and it makes being part of the "system" very
enjoyable. But I have also had some really bad experiences with others as
well, and it happens to dang often. I think if the FAA and fellow
controllers would better "police" the problem children, a lot more pilots
would utilize ATC services insteading of flight planning to avoid them, and
everyone would benefit.

[Erik]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Erik,
>
>
>>I avoid it at every opportunity.
>>
>
>
> Big mistake. Huge! Many accident reports where one just has to think:
> Why didn't he just tell them?
>
> Your original question is the perfect example. Imagine the controllers
> have a radar screen and there comes this blip flying in real close to
> their airspace and starts circling right where the planes come in. You
> better believe they'd love to know what that blip has in mind, however
> awkward the guy piloting the blip might explain it ;-) Even if
> something like that can't be found in the standard phraseology, if you
> make it concise and to the point, everybody will win.
>
> Go become a talker! It's better for you and for everyone around.

Yep, that's my thought. I'd rather be awkward than dead, or worse yet
living while other people got killed in some horrible accident that
was easy to prevent.