Which airplane for teenagers to build????

[Andrew[_4_]]

Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
airplane. There is at least one one high school building the Zenith
701 and Aircraft Spruce donated a Stolp Starduster kit to another high
school. The airplanes that I have researched and would like to build
myself include the following: Wittman Tailwind and Buttercup, Long-EZ,
Cozy Mark IV, KR-2, Christavia, Sonex Vision, Bearhawk, Zenair Zodiac,
Zenair 601 and Zenair 701, Thorpe T-18 , BD-4, and the Falconar to
name a few. Many of these at some point I've convinced myself,
"that's the airplane for me" and just before ordering the plans.....I
change my mind. I've been studying homebuilt airplanes for a couple of
years now and there probably isn't a homebuilt design that I haven't
read about. I know the least about wooden airplanes but wouldn't
exclude this type of building material in my choice.
I've talked with the welding department at the high school and
the instructor said he'd help weld a 4130 fuselage as they have a tig
welder. Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
involved with, to contribute to by using their hands. For example
with a wooden wing, probably each student could make a rib for the
wings. With an aluminum airplane students also each could make an
aluminum rib, the type that are formed around a wooden template with a
mallet. It seems like mistakes on a rib wouldn't affect a huge
component and quality control could be managed. Ruin a rib, toss it
aside and try again. I'm not sure if a mistake in welding a 4130 tube
fuselage could be corrected easily. Basically you want students to
contribute with simple tasks where mistakes could be fixed without
costing too much. With an aluminum airplane students could drill
holes, deburr and rivet. I'm not sure how easily mistakes in aluminum
can be repaired, say someone who dents the skin when riveting. How do
you fix a mistake on an aluminum skin, say someone drills some holes
wrong? Can they be filled?
Composite construction involves dangerous chemicals which
wouldn't bother me as I used to be in the chemical and fume rich
electroplating business, but you don't want students breaking out in
rashes. However, on a composite airplane there might be opportunity
for students to perform the labor intensive sanding, sanding and
sanding. So the basic 2 questions are 1) Which type of airplane
building method would provide the most opportunity for unskilled high
school students to learn and contribute to .......aluminum, tube and
fabric, composite or wood. 2) Based on your choice in #1 which
specific airplane then would be the best candidate to build?
Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."


Thanks,
Andrew

[Kyle Boatright]

Why not something built primarily from wood? This would eliminate many of
the highest skill tasks such as welding, riveting, and/or making composite
lay-ups. It would take a lot of the risk and variability out of the project.
Also, it would give the students a sense of accomplishment because most or
all of them (presumably) could measure, cut, and glue wood together without
a big (frustrating) learning curve, allowing them to see progress quickly.

How 'bout a Bowers Flybaby or one of the Team designs like a Mini-max?

KB


"Andrew" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
> I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
> I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
> have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
> airplane. There is at least one one high school building the Zenith
> 701 and Aircraft Spruce donated a Stolp Starduster kit to another high
> school. The airplanes that I have researched and would like to build
> myself include the following: Wittman Tailwind and Buttercup, Long-EZ,
> Cozy Mark IV, KR-2, Christavia, Sonex Vision, Bearhawk, Zenair Zodiac,
> Zenair 601 and Zenair 701, Thorpe T-18 , BD-4, and the Falconar to
> name a few. Many of these at some point I've convinced myself,
> "that's the airplane for me" and just before ordering the plans.....I
> change my mind. I've been studying homebuilt airplanes for a couple of
> years now and there probably isn't a homebuilt design that I haven't
> read about. I know the least about wooden airplanes but wouldn't
> exclude this type of building material in my choice.
> I've talked with the welding department at the high school and
> the instructor said he'd help weld a 4130 fuselage as they have a tig
> welder. Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
> project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
> opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
> involved with, to contribute to by using their hands. For example
> with a wooden wing, probably each student could make a rib for the
> wings. With an aluminum airplane students also each could make an
> aluminum rib, the type that are formed around a wooden template with a
> mallet. It seems like mistakes on a rib wouldn't affect a huge
> component and quality control could be managed. Ruin a rib, toss it
> aside and try again. I'm not sure if a mistake in welding a 4130 tube
> fuselage could be corrected easily. Basically you want students to
> contribute with simple tasks where mistakes could be fixed without
> costing too much. With an aluminum airplane students could drill
> holes, deburr and rivet. I'm not sure how easily mistakes in aluminum
> can be repaired, say someone who dents the skin when riveting. How do
> you fix a mistake on an aluminum skin, say someone drills some holes
> wrong? Can they be filled?
> Composite construction involves dangerous chemicals which
> wouldn't bother me as I used to be in the chemical and fume rich
> electroplating business, but you don't want students breaking out in
> rashes. However, on a composite airplane there might be opportunity
> for students to perform the labor intensive sanding, sanding and
> sanding. So the basic 2 questions are 1) Which type of airplane
> building method would provide the most opportunity for unskilled high
> school students to learn and contribute to .......aluminum, tube and
> fabric, composite or wood. 2) Based on your choice in #1 which
> specific airplane then would be the best candidate to build?
> Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
> influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
> Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."
>
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>

[John Price]

or possibly one of the Fisher Products, mostly wood.
John



On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:30:22 -0400, Kyle Boatright wrote:

> Why not something built primarily from wood? This would eliminate many of
> the highest skill tasks such as welding, riveting, and/or making composite
> lay-ups. It would take a lot of the risk and variability out of the project.
> Also, it would give the students a sense of accomplishment because most or
> all of them (presumably) could measure, cut, and glue wood together without
> a big (frustrating) learning curve, allowing them to see progress quickly.
>
> How 'bout a Bowers Flybaby or one of the Team designs like a Mini-max?
>
> KB
>
>
> "Andrew" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
>> I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
>> I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
>> have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
>> airplane. There is at least one one high school building the Zenith
>> 701 and Aircraft Spruce donated a Stolp Starduster kit to another high
>> school. The airplanes that I have researched and would like to build
>> myself include the following: Wittman Tailwind and Buttercup, Long-EZ,
>> Cozy Mark IV, KR-2, Christavia, Sonex Vision, Bearhawk, Zenair Zodiac,
>> Zenair 601 and Zenair 701, Thorpe T-18 , BD-4, and the Falconar to
>> name a few. Many of these at some point I've convinced myself,
>> "that's the airplane for me" and just before ordering the plans.....I
>> change my mind. I've been studying homebuilt airplanes for a couple of
>> years now and there probably isn't a homebuilt design that I haven't
>> read about. I know the least about wooden airplanes but wouldn't
>> exclude this type of building material in my choice.
>> I've talked with the welding department at the high school and
>> the instructor said he'd help weld a 4130 fuselage as they have a tig
>> welder. Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
>> project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
>> opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
>> involved with, to contribute to by using their hands. For example
>> with a wooden wing, probably each student could make a rib for the
>> wings. With an aluminum airplane students also each could make an
>> aluminum rib, the type that are formed around a wooden template with a
>> mallet. It seems like mistakes on a rib wouldn't affect a huge
>> component and quality control could be managed. Ruin a rib, toss it
>> aside and try again. I'm not sure if a mistake in welding a 4130 tube
>> fuselage could be corrected easily. Basically you want students to
>> contribute with simple tasks where mistakes could be fixed without
>> costing too much. With an aluminum airplane students could drill
>> holes, deburr and rivet. I'm not sure how easily mistakes in aluminum
>> can be repaired, say someone who dents the skin when riveting. How do
>> you fix a mistake on an aluminum skin, say someone drills some holes
>> wrong? Can they be filled?
>> Composite construction involves dangerous chemicals which
>> wouldn't bother me as I used to be in the chemical and fume rich
>> electroplating business, but you don't want students breaking out in
>> rashes. However, on a composite airplane there might be opportunity
>> for students to perform the labor intensive sanding, sanding and
>> sanding. So the basic 2 questions are 1) Which type of airplane
>> building method would provide the most opportunity for unskilled high
>> school students to learn and contribute to .......aluminum, tube and
>> fabric, composite or wood. 2) Based on your choice in #1 which
>> specific airplane then would be the best candidate to build?
>> Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
>> influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
>> Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Andrew
>>

[John Kimmel]

I would recommend keeping it much simpler. Look at the B.U.G.: basic
ultralight glider.

--
John Kimmel


I think it will be quiet around here now. So long.

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On 24 Apr 2007 17:08:13 -0700, Andrew > wrote:

>Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
> I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
>I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
>have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
>airplane.
>Thanks,
>Andrew

you need to build an aeroplane they can finish and one that they can
fly.
the Tailwind is a handful for inexperienced pilots.

your best bet is chris heintz' zenair zodiac hds. this is a simple
aeroplane which flies really sweetly on a jabiru 2200cc engine.
it looks good which is important and it uses simple constructional
methods.

if you want to build in wood Corby's CJ1 starlet is an aerobatic
single seater that is easy to build.

Stealth( I fly a Tailwind) Pilot

[Gig 601XL Builder]

I would consider one of the Zenith's you mentioned for a couple of reasons.
First it's ease of construction. There are very few places where welding is
required and the rivets used in the vast majority of the aircraft are simple
pulled rivets as opposed to those that require bucking. The Zeniths can be
built with simple tools and scratch builders have come in less than $6,000
for the airframe.

Second since you are close enough to their factory in Mexico MO. that a
field trip to the factory is not out of the question. At least from a
distance stand point.

Also, (and I know this is going to get me flamed) from a training stand
point there are a lot more jobs that the skills learned in building the
aluminium aircraft will translate to as compaired to wood and fabric.




Andrew wrote:
> Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
> I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
> I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
> have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
> airplane. There is at least one one high school building the Zenith
> 701 and Aircraft Spruce donated a Stolp Starduster kit to another high
> school. The airplanes that I have researched and would like to build
> myself include the following: Wittman Tailwind and Buttercup, Long-EZ,
> Cozy Mark IV, KR-2, Christavia, Sonex Vision, Bearhawk, Zenair Zodiac,
> Zenair 601 and Zenair 701, Thorpe T-18 , BD-4, and the Falconar to
> name a few. Many of these at some point I've convinced myself,
> "that's the airplane for me" and just before ordering the plans.....I
> change my mind. I've been studying homebuilt airplanes for a couple of
> years now and there probably isn't a homebuilt design that I haven't
> read about. I know the least about wooden airplanes but wouldn't
> exclude this type of building material in my choice.
> I've talked with the welding department at the high school and
> the instructor said he'd help weld a 4130 fuselage as they have a tig
> welder. Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
> project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
> opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
> involved with, to contribute to by using their hands. For example
> with a wooden wing, probably each student could make a rib for the
> wings. With an aluminum airplane students also each could make an
> aluminum rib, the type that are formed around a wooden template with a
> mallet. It seems like mistakes on a rib wouldn't affect a huge
> component and quality control could be managed. Ruin a rib, toss it
> aside and try again. I'm not sure if a mistake in welding a 4130 tube
> fuselage could be corrected easily. Basically you want students to
> contribute with simple tasks where mistakes could be fixed without
> costing too much. With an aluminum airplane students could drill
> holes, deburr and rivet. I'm not sure how easily mistakes in aluminum
> can be repaired, say someone who dents the skin when riveting. How do
> you fix a mistake on an aluminum skin, say someone drills some holes
> wrong? Can they be filled?
> Composite construction involves dangerous chemicals which
> wouldn't bother me as I used to be in the chemical and fume rich
> electroplating business, but you don't want students breaking out in
> rashes. However, on a composite airplane there might be opportunity
> for students to perform the labor intensive sanding, sanding and
> sanding. So the basic 2 questions are 1) Which type of airplane
> building method would provide the most opportunity for unskilled high
> school students to learn and contribute to .......aluminum, tube and
> fabric, composite or wood. 2) Based on your choice in #1 which
> specific airplane then would be the best candidate to build?
> Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
> influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
> Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."
>
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew

[Peter Dohm]

"Andrew" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
> I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
> I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
> have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
> airplane.
(snip)
> Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
> project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
> opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
> involved with, to contribute to by using their hands.
(snip)
> Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
> influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
> Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."
>
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>
A complete airplane, even a primary glider, is a big project.

Way back (about 40 years ago) in a junior college aerodynamics class, we
"built" little "wings" cut from 3x5 index cards, to demonstrate the effect
of planform. Even with a project that crude; which could be constructed in
about a minute, and balanced with chewing gum or a paper clip, a lot of good
information could be demonstrated. Those were accomplished by simply seeing
that the cut was made in such a way that the leading edge had a nearly
microscopic droop--if you build it backward, the performance will be
radically different.

Obviously, much more can be learned about both construction and results by
making a series of flying wing models that are larger and have thickness and
controlled camber.

Personally, I think that some type of model gliders might give you some
usefull results while you are evaluating the learning curve of your
students.

I hope this helps,
Peter

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Stealth Pilot wrote:

>
> your best bet is chris heintz' zenair zodiac hds. this is a simple
> aeroplane which flies really sweetly on a jabiru 2200cc engine.
> it looks good which is important and it uses simple constructional
> methods.
>

Just a quick side note to this. I'd suggest the 601XL the cost is the same
and it is an updated version that is really much better supported now.

[Peter Dohm]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> I would consider one of the Zenith's you mentioned for a couple of
reasons.
> First it's ease of construction. There are very few places where welding
is
> required and the rivets used in the vast majority of the aircraft are
simple
> pulled rivets as opposed to those that require bucking. The Zeniths can be
> built with simple tools and scratch builders have come in less than $6,000
> for the airframe.
>
> Second since you are close enough to their factory in Mexico MO. that a
> field trip to the factory is not out of the question. At least from a
> distance stand point.
>
> Also, (and I know this is going to get me flamed) from a training stand
> point there are a lot more jobs that the skills learned in building the
> aluminium aircraft will translate to as compaired to wood and fabric.
>
>
I don't know why that would get you flamed.

I also don't know which skill set, if either of them, has a surplus of
craftsmen for the work to be done.

Peter

[Anthony W]

Have you considered the Rag Wing Aviation Storch? It's all wood and is
supposed to be rather simple to build Also it's a 2 seater so you could
take a students for a ride in the plane they helped build.

Tony

Andrew wrote:
> Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
> I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
> I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
> have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
> airplane. There is at least one one high school building the Zenith
> 701 and Aircraft Spruce donated a Stolp Starduster kit to another high
> school. The airplanes that I have researched and would like to build
> myself include the following: Wittman Tailwind and Buttercup, Long-EZ,
> Cozy Mark IV, KR-2, Christavia, Sonex Vision, Bearhawk, Zenair Zodiac,
> Zenair 601 and Zenair 701, Thorpe T-18 , BD-4, and the Falconar to
> name a few. Many of these at some point I've convinced myself,
> "that's the airplane for me" and just before ordering the plans.....I
> change my mind. I've been studying homebuilt airplanes for a couple of
> years now and there probably isn't a homebuilt design that I haven't
> read about. I know the least about wooden airplanes but wouldn't
> exclude this type of building material in my choice.
> I've talked with the welding department at the high school and
> the instructor said he'd help weld a 4130 fuselage as they have a tig
> welder. Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
> project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
> opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
> involved with, to contribute to by using their hands. For example
> with a wooden wing, probably each student could make a rib for the
> wings. With an aluminum airplane students also each could make an
> aluminum rib, the type that are formed around a wooden template with a
> mallet. It seems like mistakes on a rib wouldn't affect a huge
> component and quality control could be managed. Ruin a rib, toss it
> aside and try again. I'm not sure if a mistake in welding a 4130 tube
> fuselage could be corrected easily. Basically you want students to
> contribute with simple tasks where mistakes could be fixed without
> costing too much. With an aluminum airplane students could drill
> holes, deburr and rivet. I'm not sure how easily mistakes in aluminum
> can be repaired, say someone who dents the skin when riveting. How do
> you fix a mistake on an aluminum skin, say someone drills some holes
> wrong? Can they be filled?
> Composite construction involves dangerous chemicals which
> wouldn't bother me as I used to be in the chemical and fume rich
> electroplating business, but you don't want students breaking out in
> rashes. However, on a composite airplane there might be opportunity
> for students to perform the labor intensive sanding, sanding and
> sanding. So the basic 2 questions are 1) Which type of airplane
> building method would provide the most opportunity for unskilled high
> school students to learn and contribute to .......aluminum, tube and
> fabric, composite or wood. 2) Based on your choice in #1 which
> specific airplane then would be the best candidate to build?
> Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
> influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
> Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."
>
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>

[gorgon]

You might want to check out a couple of the following:

EAA used to have something in their education division called "school
flight". Give them a call.

Kit Plane magazine carried a coupe of series about school kids
building planes. One was a special ed group that built a 5151.
Another was about Dr. Ben Milsbaugh of Colorado that put together a
Fischer Celebrety at his high school in conjunction with his
involvement as the head of the Rocky Mt division of the CAP aerospace
education program. He used to have seminars at the AF academy in
Colorado Springs for teachers and was a great inspiration and driving
force in getting aerospace ed into the classroom (prior to the NCLB
fiasco that has reduced classrooms into "teach to the test" process
that has eliminated real world learning).

Get a copy of "Plane Crazy" and watch what happens to someone who
bites off more than they can chew. Keep it simple so the kids can see
progress in short periods of time. Fisher products, Loehle stuff,
maybe a KR2, Pietenpol, Teenie Two if you can get plans, Sonex, or
restore a classic/antique.

I got half way through a Baby Lakes before the upper administration
found out and had to take it home. Funny. An Aviation Science class
with an airplane? The building principal thought it was cool.
School lawyer had problems with it. Check with admin first.

[dodger]

Have you considered building the Skypup? Granted it's an ultralight,
but it has the advantages that it is simple to construct (wood, foam,
fabric), it will likely be finished in the course of the students
tenure at the school, and with a minimum of flight time can actually
be flown. Disadvantages are few, it is not a kit, but is built
strictly from plans and it has limited flight opportunities as it
must be flown in light winds.
Roger

On Apr 25, 8:35 pm, Anthony W > wrote:
> Have you considered the Rag Wing Aviation Storch? It's all wood and is
> supposed to be rather simple to build Also it's a 2 seater so you could
> take a students for a ride in the plane they helped build.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> Andrew wrote:
> > Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
> > I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
> > I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
> > have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
<<SNIP>>

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Andrew wrote:
> Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,

I knew I'd seen this way back on the Zenith website but I couldn't find it
until just now. They have a section for building aircraft as a school
project. You may have already found it but here it is.

http://zenithair.com/misc/school/project.html

[Drew Dalgleish]

On 24 Apr 2007 17:08:13 -0700, Andrew > wrote:

>Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
> I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
>I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
>have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
>airplane. There is at least one one high school building the Zenith
>701 and Aircraft Spruce donated a Stolp Starduster kit to another high
>school. The airplanes that I have researched and would like to build
>myself include the following: Wittman Tailwind and Buttercup, Long-EZ,
>Cozy Mark IV, KR-2, Christavia, Sonex Vision, Bearhawk, Zenair Zodiac,
>Zenair 601 and Zenair 701, Thorpe T-18 , BD-4, and the Falconar to
>name a few. Many of these at some point I've convinced myself,
>"that's the airplane for me" and just before ordering the plans.....I
>change my mind. I've been studying homebuilt airplanes for a couple of
>years now and there probably isn't a homebuilt design that I haven't
>read about. I know the least about wooden airplanes but wouldn't
>exclude this type of building material in my choice.
> I've talked with the welding department at the high school and
>the instructor said he'd help weld a 4130 fuselage as they have a tig
>welder. Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
>project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
>opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
>involved with, to contribute to by using their hands. For example
>with a wooden wing, probably each student could make a rib for the
>wings. With an aluminum airplane students also each could make an
>aluminum rib, the type that are formed around a wooden template with a
>mallet. It seems like mistakes on a rib wouldn't affect a huge
>component and quality control could be managed. Ruin a rib, toss it
>aside and try again. I'm not sure if a mistake in welding a 4130 tube
>fuselage could be corrected easily. Basically you want students to
>contribute with simple tasks where mistakes could be fixed without
>costing too much. With an aluminum airplane students could drill
>holes, deburr and rivet. I'm not sure how easily mistakes in aluminum
>can be repaired, say someone who dents the skin when riveting. How do
>you fix a mistake on an aluminum skin, say someone drills some holes
>wrong? Can they be filled?
> Composite construction involves dangerous chemicals which
>wouldn't bother me as I used to be in the chemical and fume rich
>electroplating business, but you don't want students breaking out in
>rashes. However, on a composite airplane there might be opportunity
>for students to perform the labor intensive sanding, sanding and
>sanding. So the basic 2 questions are 1) Which type of airplane
>building method would provide the most opportunity for unskilled high
>school students to learn and contribute to .......aluminum, tube and
>fabric, composite or wood. 2) Based on your choice in #1 which
>specific airplane then would be the best candidate to build?
> Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
>influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
>Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."
>
>
>Thanks,
>Andrew
>
Good on you for being interested in doing more than the minimum. You
might want to check out the murphy Rebel kit. Murphy used to and may
still offer kits to school groups at cost or less.
Drew Dalgleish
Murphy Rebel # 247
C-FHO

[[email protected]]

On Apr 28, 8:38 am, (Drew Dalgleish)
wrote:
> On 24 Apr 2007 17:08:13 -0700, Andrew > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
> > I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
> >I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
> >have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
> >airplane. There is at least one one high school building the Zenith
> >701 and Aircraft Spruce donated a Stolp Starduster kit to another high
> >school. The airplanes that I have researched and would like to build
> >myself include the following: Wittman Tailwind and Buttercup, Long-EZ,
> >Cozy Mark IV, KR-2, Christavia, Sonex Vision, Bearhawk, Zenair Zodiac,
> >Zenair 601 and Zenair 701, Thorpe T-18 , BD-4, and the Falconar to
> >name a few. Many of these at some point I've convinced myself,
> >"that's the airplane for me" and just before ordering the plans.....I
> >change my mind. I've been studying homebuilt airplanes for a couple of
> >years now and there probably isn't a homebuilt design that I haven't
> >read about. I know the least about wooden airplanes but wouldn't
> >exclude this type of building material in my choice.
> > I've talked with the welding department at the high school and
> >the instructor said he'd help weld a 4130 fuselage as they have a tig
> >welder. Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
> >project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
> >opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
> >involved with, to contribute to by using their hands. For example
> >with a wooden wing, probably each student could make a rib for the
> >wings. With an aluminum airplane students also each could make an
> >aluminum rib, the type that are formed around a wooden template with a
> >mallet. It seems like mistakes on a rib wouldn't affect a huge
> >component and quality control could be managed. Ruin a rib, toss it
> >aside and try again. I'm not sure if a mistake in welding a 4130 tube
> >fuselage could be corrected easily. Basically you want students to
> >contribute with simple tasks where mistakes could be fixed without
> >costing too much. With an aluminum airplane students could drill
> >holes, deburr and rivet. I'm not sure how easily mistakes in aluminum
> >can be repaired, say someone who dents the skin when riveting. How do
> >you fix a mistake on an aluminum skin, say someone drills some holes
> >wrong? Can they be filled?
> > Composite construction involves dangerous chemicals which
> >wouldn't bother me as I used to be in the chemical and fume rich
> >electroplating business, but you don't want students breaking out in
> >rashes. However, on a composite airplane there might be opportunity
> >for students to perform the labor intensive sanding, sanding and
> >sanding. So the basic 2 questions are 1) Which type of airplane
> >building method would provide the most opportunity for unskilled high
> >school students to learn and contribute to .......aluminum, tube and
> >fabric, composite or wood. 2) Based on your choice in #1 which
> >specific airplane then would be the best candidate to build?
> > Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
> >influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
> >Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."
>
> >Thanks,
> >Andrew
>
> Good on you for being interested in doing more than the minimum. You
> might want to check out the murphy Rebel kit. Murphy used to and may
> still offer kits to school groups at cost or less.
> Drew Dalgleish
> Murphy Rebel # 247
> C-FHO- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

If you want to build in metal the Thatcher CX4 looks fairly easy and
not too many $$$ . Just my $0.02.

Frank M Hitlaw At my Secret world HQ

[patrick mitchel]

>
> If you want to build in metal the Thatcher CX4 looks fairly easy and
> not too many $$$ . Just my $0.02.
>
> Frank M Hitlaw At my Secret world HQ
Be aware that when I googled "thatcher cx-4" i received a warning that
there was a trojan virus when the site was clicked on. I use avg antivirus.
Pat

[Montblack]

("patrick mitchel" wrote)
> Be aware that when I googled "thatcher cx-4" i received a warning that
> there was a trojan virus when the site was clicked on. I use avg
> antivirus.


I use AVG and, like you, Googled "thatcher cx-4". I received no such
warning.

YMMV.


Montblack
http://www.warbirdalley.com/t28.htm
T-28 Trojan (just like this one) is in the hangar across from where I was
yesterday + will be today. <g>

[Darrel Toepfer]

"Montblack" > wrote in
:

> ("patrick mitchel" wrote)
>> Be aware that when I googled "thatcher cx-4" i received a warning
>> that there was a trojan virus when the site was clicked on. I use avg
>> antivirus.
>
>
> I use AVG and, like you, Googled "thatcher cx-4". I received no such
> warning.
>
> YMMV.

If you agree to the "Active X" payload, this is Trojan Virus you'll get:

See Attachment: Thatcher Trojan.jpg

[Highflyer]

"Andrew" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
> I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
>> Thanks,
> Andrew
>

Andrew,

Come on down to Pinckneyville for the flyin in May just after schools out
for the summer. May 18, 19, and 20. We have some homebuilts at the flyin
of various types. I have been working with school projects for many years.
We were having high school shop classes build airplanes forty years ago.
They did very well also.

As for a plane for a school project I would recommend a Pietenpol Air
Camper. It is all wood and can be built with simple tools. Lots of parts
for lots of kids to make and quality control is pretty simple. Materials
are relatively inexpensive so the mistakes can be consigned to the trash
without great pain in the wallet. The Piet will even fly with a Model A
Ford engine if you wish, although a little Continental A-65 would be a
better choice. You can pick up a good A-65 for under $4000 and build t he
entire airplane ready to fly for under $10,000. Hard to do that with any
other airplane these days.

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

I-64 east to Exit 50, south of Route 127 28 miles to Pinckneyville Airport.
Right alongside the highway. Highflight Aviation is the southernmost
hangar, Hangar D. Cheers.

[Big John]

Andrew

This kind of a project was discussed several years ago and it was
pointed out the liability associated with a project like this.

As I recall, the school let them build the bird with the proviso that
it never be flown :o(

May be some others that remember the prior discussion on this subject
and can add more detail?

Also a number of years ago (may still be there?),there was a program
in Seattle that used inner city youths under a A & E to build 49.9% of
your airplane. You bought the material and did 50.1% of work. Boeing
helped support the program and hired some of the individuals after
they learned some airplane skills I was told. Possible some of our
Seattle types might comment on this program and have a contact you
could contact for info on it and how they got around the liability?

Big John
***************************************


On 24 Apr 2007 17:08:13 -0700, Andrew > wrote:

>Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
> I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
>I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
>have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
>airplane. There is at least one one high school building the Zenith
>701 and Aircraft Spruce donated a Stolp Starduster kit to another high
>school. The airplanes that I have researched and would like to build
>myself include the following: Wittman Tailwind and Buttercup, Long-EZ,
>Cozy Mark IV, KR-2, Christavia, Sonex Vision, Bearhawk, Zenair Zodiac,
>Zenair 601 and Zenair 701, Thorpe T-18 , BD-4, and the Falconar to
>name a few. Many of these at some point I've convinced myself,
>"that's the airplane for me" and just before ordering the plans.....I
>change my mind. I've been studying homebuilt airplanes for a couple of
>years now and there probably isn't a homebuilt design that I haven't
>read about. I know the least about wooden airplanes but wouldn't
>exclude this type of building material in my choice.
> I've talked with the welding department at the high school and
>the instructor said he'd help weld a 4130 fuselage as they have a tig
>welder. Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
>project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
>opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
>involved with, to contribute to by using their hands. For example
>with a wooden wing, probably each student could make a rib for the
>wings. With an aluminum airplane students also each could make an
>aluminum rib, the type that are formed around a wooden template with a
>mallet. It seems like mistakes on a rib wouldn't affect a huge
>component and quality control could be managed. Ruin a rib, toss it
>aside and try again. I'm not sure if a mistake in welding a 4130 tube
>fuselage could be corrected easily. Basically you want students to
>contribute with simple tasks where mistakes could be fixed without
>costing too much. With an aluminum airplane students could drill
>holes, deburr and rivet. I'm not sure how easily mistakes in aluminum
>can be repaired, say someone who dents the skin when riveting. How do
>you fix a mistake on an aluminum skin, say someone drills some holes
>wrong? Can they be filled?
> Composite construction involves dangerous chemicals which
>wouldn't bother me as I used to be in the chemical and fume rich
>electroplating business, but you don't want students breaking out in
>rashes. However, on a composite airplane there might be opportunity
>for students to perform the labor intensive sanding, sanding and
>sanding. So the basic 2 questions are 1) Which type of airplane
>building method would provide the most opportunity for unskilled high
>school students to learn and contribute to .......aluminum, tube and
>fabric, composite or wood. 2) Based on your choice in #1 which
>specific airplane then would be the best candidate to build?
> Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
>influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
>Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."
>
>
>Thanks,
>Andrew

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 01 May 2007 15:37:05 -0500, Big John > wrote:

> Also a number of years ago (may still be there?),there was a program
> in Seattle that used inner city youths under a A & E to build 49.9% of
> your airplane. You bought the material and did 50.1% of work. Boeing
> helped support the program and hired some of the individuals after
> they learned some airplane skills I was told. Possible some of our
> Seattle types might comment on this program and have a contact you
> could contact for info on it and how they got around the liability?

Sounds like Opportunity Skyways...EAA Chapter 26 meets in their shop at Boeing
Field. However, I don't think they build flying airplanes anymore. They take a
school year to assemble a Zenair or RANS, then it gets disassembled and the next
year's class does it again.

Ron Wanttaja

[RST Engineering]

Don't the rivet holes get a little oversized?

Jim




"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
>
> Sounds like Opportunity Skyways...EAA Chapter 26 meets in their shop at
> Boeing
> Field. However, I don't think they build flying airplanes anymore. They
> take a
> school year to assemble a Zenair or RANS, then it gets disassembled and
> the next
> year's class does it again.
>
> Ron Wanttaja

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 1 May 2007 22:40:41 -0700, "RST Engineering" >
wrote:

> "Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Sounds like Opportunity Skyways...EAA Chapter 26 meets in their shop at
> > Boeing
> > Field. However, I don't think they build flying airplanes anymore. They
> > take a
> > school year to assemble a Zenair or RANS, then it gets disassembled and
> > the next
> > year's class does it again.
>
> Don't the rivet holes get a little oversized?

Probably. I suspect they buy replacements on occasion. They might even get
aluminum from Boeing Surplus for skins, or even have the kids build parts using
the old ones as patterns. They've got ~2 Zenith CH601-class and one CH-701, and
one RANS S-7 class. One of the 601s is promotional and not disassembled (it's
painted up like the Blue Angels, with "1/2" on the tail).

IIRC, the *first* airplane built by Opportunity Skyways did make one flight,
with our Chapter's Tech Counselor at the controls.

Ron Wanttaja

[Big John]

Andrew

FYI

Received the following e-mail from my SIL who was a home builder in
Seattle and very active at Arlington for many years. Hope this helps
you.

I looked on Google and didn't find the school project???? Possibly
someone on this group from Seattle can give info how to contact the
powers that be for this Seattle program who you can contact and get
their experience for your use?

Quote

You wrote:

Ask Robert. Wasn't there a program in Seattle that took inner city
youths and under a A & E had them build an airplane. You could buy the
material and do 50.1 % yourself and they would do the rest and you
ended up with a bird.
Believe Boeing had some interest and hired some of the people after
they had proven themselves building???

Robert says yes. The program itself was called "Project Schoolfly" or
something like that. Try Google.

You wrote:
A guy on a news group is talking about having some HS students build a
bird but last time I heard of that type of program the school wouldn't
let bird fly due to liability?

Also correct. The students don't get to fly. After building, they tear
it apart & the parts are used to build another plane the following
year.

Unquote
************************************************** **


On 24 Apr 2007 17:08:13 -0700, Andrew > wrote:

>Dear Aviation Enthusiasts,
> I teach math in an inner city high school in Southern Illinois.
>I've been studying airplane projects to build myself alone but also
>have thought about forming a high school aviation club to build an
>airplane. There is at least one one high school building the Zenith
>701 and Aircraft Spruce donated a Stolp Starduster kit to another high
>school. The airplanes that I have researched and would like to build
>myself include the following: Wittman Tailwind and Buttercup, Long-EZ,
>Cozy Mark IV, KR-2, Christavia, Sonex Vision, Bearhawk, Zenair Zodiac,
>Zenair 601 and Zenair 701, Thorpe T-18 , BD-4, and the Falconar to
>name a few. Many of these at some point I've convinced myself,
>"that's the airplane for me" and just before ordering the plans.....I
>change my mind. I've been studying homebuilt airplanes for a couple of
>years now and there probably isn't a homebuilt design that I haven't
>read about. I know the least about wooden airplanes but wouldn't
>exclude this type of building material in my choice.
> I've talked with the welding department at the high school and
>the instructor said he'd help weld a 4130 fuselage as they have a tig
>welder. Keep in mind though the idea that this is a group high school
>project. I'm not sure which type of project that would afford an
>opportunity for high school students (rather unskilled) to get
>involved with, to contribute to by using their hands. For example
>with a wooden wing, probably each student could make a rib for the
>wings. With an aluminum airplane students also each could make an
>aluminum rib, the type that are formed around a wooden template with a
>mallet. It seems like mistakes on a rib wouldn't affect a huge
>component and quality control could be managed. Ruin a rib, toss it
>aside and try again. I'm not sure if a mistake in welding a 4130 tube
>fuselage could be corrected easily. Basically you want students to
>contribute with simple tasks where mistakes could be fixed without
>costing too much. With an aluminum airplane students could drill
>holes, deburr and rivet. I'm not sure how easily mistakes in aluminum
>can be repaired, say someone who dents the skin when riveting. How do
>you fix a mistake on an aluminum skin, say someone drills some holes
>wrong? Can they be filled?
> Composite construction involves dangerous chemicals which
>wouldn't bother me as I used to be in the chemical and fume rich
>electroplating business, but you don't want students breaking out in
>rashes. However, on a composite airplane there might be opportunity
>for students to perform the labor intensive sanding, sanding and
>sanding. So the basic 2 questions are 1) Which type of airplane
>building method would provide the most opportunity for unskilled high
>school students to learn and contribute to .......aluminum, tube and
>fabric, composite or wood. 2) Based on your choice in #1 which
>specific airplane then would be the best candidate to build?
> Our high school is known as the East St. Louis "Flyers" being
>influenced by a close proximity to St. Louis made famous by Charles
>Lindbergh and the "Spirit of St. Louis Airplane."
>
>
>Thanks,
>Andrew