BGA Instructor Requirements

[126Driver]

The BGA instructor qualifications require candidates to have cross
country gliding experience. Is the Silver C satisfactory for all
instructor levels, or do some require more testing cross country
experience.

Instructors in the USA are not required to have any cross country
training or experience. Cross country experience seems unnecessary.
Why is this considered necessary in the BGA? Are USA instructor
requirements and instructors considered to be equal to BGA
instructors? Would a USA instructor easily qualify as a BGA
instructor. Or would they need additional training.

Thanks

[Chris Reed[_1_]]

126Driver wrote:
> The BGA instructor qualifications require candidates to have cross
> country gliding experience. Is the Silver C satisfactory for all
> instructor levels, or do some require more testing cross country
> experience.
>
> Instructors in the USA are not required to have any cross country
> training or experience. Cross country experience seems unnecessary.
> Why is this considered necessary in the BGA? Are USA instructor
> requirements and instructors considered to be equal to BGA
> instructors? Would a USA instructor easily qualify as a BGA
> instructor. Or would they need additional training.
>
I've only attained the lowest UK instructor rating (Basic Instructor) -
beyond that are Assistant and Full. This therefore only gives my
personal perspective, and I'm sure better qualified UK pilots will give
you a more detailed answer.

1. In most UK clubs, Silver C is seen as the level at which you have
become a competent pilot who could, for example, make his or her own
decision as to whether he or she is competent to fly in the particular
conditions of the day. Pre-Silver pilots generally need permission from
the duty instructor to fly. (Note that no matter how experienced you
are, you always need permission from the duty instructor to fly, but if
you're Silver and flying from a site you know, this is likely to be more
a courtesy matter, together with a check that you've actually read the
NOTAMs, have a crew sorted if you're flying XC, etc.) Thus it's the
minimum for becoming an instructor.

2. XC experience is not a formal requirement (other than the Silver 50k)
for any instructor rating, but the expectation in most UK clubs is that
an instructor is not merely teaching the student to fly but also to
soar, and to lay the foundation for that student's later XC flying if
the student wants it. For that reason, it's nowadays extremely rare to
find a UK instructor whose only XC experience is the single 50k flight.
Clubs do much of the initial instructor training, before the candidate
attends the official BGA course, and also complete the certification of
Assistants through signoff from the club CFI. I suspect that some (maybe
most) clubs might be reluctant to undertake this training until the
pilot has proved that his/her abilities go beyond the Silver level, and
this would normally be through flying XC.

3. I would guess that US instructors would not be seen as directly
equivalent because all UK instruction is supposed to be standardised to
follow the BGA Instruction Manual (though, of course, every instructor
has an individual approach, and many advanced elements are not covered
in the manual). Thus I think a US instructor would need to learn the UK
manual and then be tested on instructing to that standardised method. As
gliding is self-regulated through the BGA we're pretty non-bureaucratic
- I'm sure that a Burt Compton or Tom Knauff, for example, would talk to
the relevant club CFI and the BGA to devise an appropriate and tailored
programme for qualifying for a UK rating. Given the different methods
used, this would clearly be more than a check flight but less than a
full course (which in any event is not a formal testing programme but
instruction on how to be an instructor - thus I've heard of candidates
"passing" before the end of the course because they've reached the
required standard).

If you're asking as a US instructor moving to the UK, the obvious thing
is to find a club, fly and talk with the CFI, and then discuss next
steps with the BGA, probably via the local Regional Examiner.

[126Driver]

The three levels of instructor is interesting and makes sense.
Another difference seems to be orientation in that there is some
expectation that the student may fly cross country some day. I don't
think this is part of USA instruction. I would also guess 80% of the
US instructors have no official cross counry credentials like the
Silver C. But again, this is probably not a problem as you can gain
the knowledge to teach cross country skills by reading the texts on
the topic.

thanks,

[Bert Willing]

Sarcasm at it's best, eh ? ;-)

>. But again, this is probably not a problem as you can gain
> the knowledge to teach cross country skills by reading the texts on
> the topic.
>
> thanks,
>
>
>
>

[Bill Daniels]

"126Driver" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> The three levels of instructor is interesting and makes sense.
> Another difference seems to be orientation in that there is some
> expectation that the student may fly cross country some day. I don't
> think this is part of USA instruction. I would also guess 80% of the
> US instructors have no official cross counry credentials like the
> Silver C. But again, this is probably not a problem as you can gain
> the knowledge to teach cross country skills by reading the texts on
> the topic.
>
> thanks,
>
It becomes a problem when the instructor conveys the idea to his students
that, "only crazy people go XC". This is, unfortunately, not uncommon under
the US system.

Try suggesting to instructors that they get some cross country experience
and you'll be amazed at the response. I know an instructor that keeps
complaining that, "Instructors get no respect". I asked him if he held any
FAI badges and he said no and he didn't want any. I said, "Well?....

I hate to say it, but maybe we need a change in the FAA instructor applicant
experience requirements (and renewal requirements) to include at least a
Silver Badge.

Bill Daniels

[Cliff Hilty]

I couldn't agree more! I know of several now CFIG's
that were power instructors and did there private,
commercial and CFIG ratings in one exam with right
at 20 flights and less than 4 hours in gliders and
were teaching the next day. They couldn't even thermal,
but they read the book : ) I have always argued that
if we want to grow the sport, it starts with the instructors.
I was lucky enough (at the same school) to have an
instructor that had flown diamond distance in a 1-26
several times and taught from that perspective.

PS. One of the fast trackers mentioned, a year later
totaled a 2-33 on a takeoff thermal when he broke the
rope and spun it in with a ride passenger. No one hurt
thank god.

At 13:48 26 April 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:
>
>'126Driver' wrote in message
ups.com...
>> The three levels of instructor is interesting and
>>makes sense.
>> Another difference seems to be orientation in that
>>there is some
>> expectation that the student may fly cross country
>>some day. I don't
>> think this is part of USA instruction. I would also
>>guess 80% of the
>> US instructors have no official cross counry credentials
>>like the
>> Silver C. But again, this is probably not a problem
>>as you can gain
>> the knowledge to teach cross country skills by reading
>>the texts on
>> the topic.
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>It becomes a problem when the instructor conveys the
>idea to his students
>that, 'only crazy people go XC'. This is, unfortunately,
>not uncommon under
>the US system.
>
>Try suggesting to instructors that they get some cross
>country experience
>and you'll be amazed at the response. I know an instructor
>that keeps
>complaining that, 'Instructors get no respect'. I
>asked him if he held any
>FAI badges and he said no and he didn't want any.
>I said, 'Well?....
>
>I hate to say it, but maybe we need a change in the
>FAA instructor applicant
>experience requirements (and renewal requirements)
>to include at least a
>Silver Badge.
>
>Bill Daniels
>
>
>

[Wayne Paul]

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
. ..
>
> I hate to say it, but maybe we need a change in the FAA instructor
> applicant experience requirements (and renewal requirements) to include at
> least a Silver Badge.
>

Currently in the US you must have a Silver Badge to participate in SSA
sanctioned contests. It is obvious that the FAA instructor requirements are
out of date.

Aren't instructors the people you go to refine your skills? Shouldn't they
have the skills and knowledge to mentor you in your badge quest?

Soaring would become boring if I didn't have the challenge of cross-country
flight.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

[Bill Daniels]

Well then, maybe we need to say to these "badgeless" instructors, "No
badge - no respect". The motivation to get the CFIG in the first place is
almost always peer approval so, while they will complain loudly, most will
get the badges. The ones that refuse were probably not instructor material
in the first place. In the meantime, it's, "Friends don't let friends take
instruction from badgeless instructors".

Bill Daniels


"Cliff Hilty" > wrote in message
...
>I couldn't agree more! I know of several now CFIG's
> that were power instructors and did there private,
> commercial and CFIG ratings in one exam with right
> at 20 flights and less than 4 hours in gliders and
> were teaching the next day. They couldn't even thermal,
> but they read the book : ) I have always argued that
> if we want to grow the sport, it starts with the instructors.
> I was lucky enough (at the same school) to have an
> instructor that had flown diamond distance in a 1-26
> several times and taught from that perspective.
>
> PS. One of the fast trackers mentioned, a year later
> totaled a 2-33 on a takeoff thermal when he broke the
> rope and spun it in with a ride passenger. No one hurt
> thank god.
>
> At 13:48 26 April 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:
>>
>>'126Driver' wrote in message
ups.com...
>>> The three levels of instructor is interesting and
>>>makes sense.
>>> Another difference seems to be orientation in that
>>>there is some
>>> expectation that the student may fly cross country
>>>some day. I don't
>>> think this is part of USA instruction. I would also
>>>guess 80% of the
>>> US instructors have no official cross counry credentials
>>>like the
>>> Silver C. But again, this is probably not a problem
>>>as you can gain
>>> the knowledge to teach cross country skills by reading
>>>the texts on
>>> the topic.
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>>
>>It becomes a problem when the instructor conveys the
>>idea to his students
>>that, 'only crazy people go XC'. This is, unfortunately,
>>not uncommon under
>>the US system.
>>
>>Try suggesting to instructors that they get some cross
>>country experience
>>and you'll be amazed at the response. I know an instructor
>>that keeps
>>complaining that, 'Instructors get no respect'. I
>>asked him if he held any
>>FAI badges and he said no and he didn't want any.
>>I said, 'Well?....
>>
>>I hate to say it, but maybe we need a change in the
>>FAA instructor applicant
>>experience requirements (and renewal requirements)
>>to include at least a
>>Silver Badge.
>>
>>Bill Daniels
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Nyal Williams]

I know some badgeless instructors who are good at it
-- in terms of teaching flying skill, safety, etc.,
and who do not have badges. One of them has aerobatic
flight in gliders as a special interest, one has flown
everything going and just has no interest in heading
out any more.

I agree that they don't give the students the kind
of challenge that will make staying with the sport
a likelihood, but other instructors provide that.
These guys are not the only instructors that the students
have during their training (club environment).

I recall the time in my early days when a USA commercial
glider pilot was the only kind of instructors we had.
The trainers were the 2-22s and commercial pilot 'instructors'
was the only way to keep the sport alive in many states
far removed from CA and NY.

I don't argue for this by any means, but such people
can give sound instruction in the basics. As I understand
it, the BGA allows beginning level instructors for
this basic instruction. I'd be more interested in
seeing a tiered instructor level like that for the
US than a wholesale requirement that all instructors
be required to have a gold badge. Many clubs have
no instructor at all and can't find or produce one.
They must depend on the commercial operators for training
(sometimes in other states) and that limits club growth.
We all need a better world.

At 15:18 26 April 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:
>Well then, maybe we need to say to these 'badgeless'
>instructors, 'No
>badge - no respect'. The motivation to get the CFIG
>in the first place is
>almost always peer approval so, while they will complain
>loudly, most will
>get the badges. The ones that refuse were probably
>not instructor material
>in the first place. In the meantime, it's, 'Friends
>don't let friends take
>instruction from badgeless instructors'.
>
>Bill Daniels
>
>
>'Cliff Hilty' wrote in message
...
>>I couldn't agree more! I know of several now CFIG's
>> that were power instructors and did there private,
>> commercial and CFIG ratings in one exam with right
>> at 20 flights and less than 4 hours in gliders and
>> were teaching the next day. They couldn't even thermal,
>> but they read the book : ) I have always argued that
>> if we want to grow the sport, it starts with the instructors.
>> I was lucky enough (at the same school) to have an
>> instructor that had flown diamond distance in a 1-26
>> several times and taught from that perspective.
>>
>> PS. One of the fast trackers mentioned, a year later
>> totaled a 2-33 on a takeoff thermal when he broke
>>the
>> rope and spun it in with a ride passenger. No one
>>hurt
>> thank god.
>>
>> At 13:48 26 April 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:
>>>
>>>'126Driver' wrote in message
ups.com...
>>>> The three levels of instructor is interesting and
>>>>makes sense.
>>>> Another difference seems to be orientation in that
>>>>there is some
>>>> expectation that the student may fly cross country
>>>>some day. I don't
>>>> think this is part of USA instruction. I would also
>>>>guess 80% of the
>>>> US instructors have no official cross counry credentials
>>>>like the
>>>> Silver C. But again, this is probably not a problem
>>>>as you can gain
>>>> the knowledge to teach cross country skills by reading
>>>>the texts on
>>>> the topic.
>>>>
>>>> thanks,
>>>>
>>>It becomes a problem when the instructor conveys the
>>>idea to his students
>>>that, 'only crazy people go XC'. This is, unfortunately,
>>>not uncommon under
>>>the US system.
>>>
>>>Try suggesting to instructors that they get some cross
>>>country experience
>>>and you'll be amazed at the response. I know an instructor
>>>that keeps
>>>complaining that, 'Instructors get no respect'. I
>>>asked him if he held any
>>>FAI badges and he said no and he didn't want any.
>>>I said, 'Well?....
>>>
>>>I hate to say it, but maybe we need a change in the
>>>FAA instructor applicant
>>>experience requirements (and renewal requirements)
>>>to include at least a
>>>Silver Badge.
>>>
>>>Bill Daniels
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

On Apr 26, 6:59 am, 126Driver > wrote:
> The three levels of instructor is interesting and makes sense.
> Another difference seems to be orientation in that there is some
> expectation that the student may fly cross country some day. I don't
> think this is part of USA instruction. I would also guess 80% of the
> US instructors have no official cross counry credentials like the
> Silver C. But again, this is probably not a problem as you can gain
> the knowledge to teach cross country skills by reading the texts on
> the topic.
>
> thanks,


with the book knowledge you can teach the theory of speed to fly etc.
Im a firm believer in teaching by doing when it comes to XC though.

[Sally W]

At 15:42 26 April 2007, Nyal Williams wrote:
<snip>
>As I understand
>it, the BGA allows beginning level instructors for
>this basic instruction. I'd be more interested in
>seeing a tiered instructor level like that for the
>US than a wholesale requirement that all instructors
>be required to have a gold badge.
<snip>

AFAIK, a Basic Instructor is effectively limited to
upper air work (but I'm sure someone will correct me
if I'm wrong about that), so someone new to gliding
fairly quickly needs an Assistant or Full instructor.
Where I fly has an evening for ab-initios and another
for the Bronze group, all instructors for those are
AIs or FIs. As to gold badges - one of our Bronze
instructors must have enough diamond flights for a
tiara of his very own, but thankfully he's not that
sort of guy! (and fitting it under the canopy without
damaging him, it or the canopy might be problematic)
Two more of the four do XC flying (and I'm pretty sure
have gold), will ask the 4th next time I see him.

My view is that we are very lucky to have these guys
teaching us, especially as they all normally give up
an evening a week for 7 months of the year.

[Michael Ash]

126Driver > wrote:
> The three levels of instructor is interesting and makes sense.
> Another difference seems to be orientation in that there is some
> expectation that the student may fly cross country some day. I don't
> think this is part of USA instruction.

During my recent checkride for PPL-G, the examiner asked a lot of
questions about landing out, probably more on that than on any other topic
aside from maybe reading sectionals, which has similar applicability. My
instructors similarly asked me about landing out, mainly when we were in
the air and they could show real examples. I fondly remember one wave
flight where we spent probably half an hour picking out fields and
discussing how to land in them.

More advanced topics than this generally were not covered. I think the
idea is that you should know enough to save yourself when you can't make
it back, but anything more is up to you to learn (and get training on, if
you wish) afterwards.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

[Andy[_1_]]

On Apr 25, 7:10 am, 126Driver > wrote:
Would a USA instructor easily qualify as a BGA
> instructor. Or would they need additional training.

My experience of this is over 20 years ago. I returned to UK after
earning my US CFI, Gold, and 2 diamonds and with 150 hours in my log
book was quickly granted a UK assistant instructor rating. I probably
was not given a full briefing on the restrictions as the CFI ( the C
is Chief for the US folks)had a little word with me after I soloed a
student without talking to him first.

I did some training at Lasham for full cat and would have received it
except that I got tired watching the rain while I waited in the hope
of flying and returned to US.

Andy

[Nyal Williams]

The FAA criteria for a CFI-G in the US are apparently
based on old criteria from the 1920s and 1930s with
some updating in the pursuit of safety.

In my view, it would be useful if the SSA devised two
or three levels of SSA Instructor recognition similar
to the BGA standards. I don't believe I would base
this on badges; we have many pilots who fly cross country
but don't bother with SSA badges. Further, in the
proper location, one can earn all the diamonds without
having made a dozen X/C flights, and further still,
one could have earned the badges decades ago and not
have done any X/C flying since that time. I believe
some combination of total hours of X/C, the number
of X/C flights, total distance flown, and recency of
this experience would provide a better indicator of
qualifications.

We already have SSA Instructor, and SSA Master Instructor;
why not elaborate that a bit and give it more publicity
and status?

At 20:12 26 April 2007, Andy wrote:
>On Apr 25, 7:10 am, 126Driver wrote:
> Would a USA instructor easily qualify as a BGA
>> instructor. Or would they need additional training.
>
>My experience of this is over 20 years ago. I returned
>to UK after
>earning my US CFI, Gold, and 2 diamonds and with 150
>hours in my log
>book was quickly granted a UK assistant instructor
>rating. I probably
>was not given a full briefing on the restrictions as
>the CFI ( the C
>is Chief for the US folks)had a little word with me
>after I soloed a
>student without talking to him first.
>
>I did some training at Lasham for full cat and would
>have received it
>except that I got tired watching the rain while I waited
>in the hope
>of flying and returned to US.
>
>Andy
>
>
>

[Peter Creswick]

Not directly on topic, but a variation of a review of training philosophy.

http://www.gfa.org.au/ops/training.php

[Dan G]

Overview of the BGA system, for the interested:

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/instructors/requirements.htm


Dan

[Cats]

On Apr 27, 7:07 pm, Dan G > wrote:
> Overview of the BGA system, for the interested:
>
> http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/instructors/requirements.htm

And further, explaining the limitations on what a BI can teach:
http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/BasicInstructorPreparationandInformation.pdf