GoogleGroups Acting Hinky?

[Jay Honeck]

All day yesterday Google Groups showed the "newest" messages as being
more than 24 hours old. Today there are newer messages showing up,
but messages are not being uploaded/updated in a timely fashion.
Messages I posted 15 minutes ago have still not appeared. (Normally
this occurs almost instantly.)

Worse, messages that I have already read are appearing again as UN-
read. Not that I'll be able to see your reply for a while, but is
anyone else noticing this?

Can anyone recommend any other web-based newsgroup portals? I'm
growing weary of Google's eternal attempts at reinventing the wheel.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

On 26 Apr 2007 07:39:24 -0700, Jay Honeck > wrote in . com>:

>Can anyone recommend any other web-based newsgroup portals? I'm
>growing weary of Google's eternal attempts at reinventing the wheel.

I've paid for newsgroups for a long time now and used
Free Agent, then Agent to read them.

The cost for text-only access is on par with a subscription
to a magazine.

I've used Newsguy, Astraweb, and Supernews. There
are lots of other news service providers out there:

http://www.big-8.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=faqs:news_providers

Marty
--
Big-8 newsgroups: humanities.*, misc.*, news.*, rec.*, sci.*, soc.*, talk.*
See http://www.big-8.org for info on how to add or remove newsgroups.

[Peter R.]

On 4/26/2007 10:39:21 AM, Jay Honeck wrote:

> Can anyone recommend any other web-based newsgroup portals?

Why does it have to be web-based? Can't you take up Martin's offer of free
access to his Usenet servers?

--
Peter

[Flyin'[email protected]]

> Can anyone recommend any other web-based newsgroup portals? I'm
> growing weary of Google's eternal attempts at reinventing the wheel.

I have user a few GigaNews, Supernews, and now Newsreader.com

I am most happy with Newsreader.com and get 30Gb per month for $9.95/mo

It has the ability to connect an external reader with 10 concurrent
connections for speedy binary downloads, as well as a handy web interface
for times when away from your Agent or Outlook.

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

[Peter R.]

On 4/26/2007 11:42:00 AM, "Peter R." wrote:

> Can't you take up Martin's offer of free
> access to his Usenet servers?

To clarify, Martin Hotze's offer...

I know you two are newsgroup nemeses, but free and reliable is an offer that
you are seeking and he provides.

--
Peter

[Gig 601XL Builder]

wrote:
>> Can anyone recommend any other web-based newsgroup portals? I'm
>> growing weary of Google's eternal attempts at reinventing the wheel.
>
> I have user a few GigaNews, Supernews, and now Newsreader.com
>
> I am most happy with Newsreader.com and get 30Gb per month for
> $9.95/mo
>
> It has the ability to connect an external reader with 10 concurrent
> connections for speedy binary downloads, as well as a handy web
> interface for times when away from your Agent or Outlook.

And if you don't care about the bianary newsgroups you can get supernews
text only with a 3GB/month limit (which I have never hit) for $42.99/year.

[John[_1_]]

On Apr 26, 10:39 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> All day yesterday Google Groups showed the "newest" messages as being
> more than 24 hours old. Today there are newer messages showing up,
> but messages are not being uploaded/updated in a timely fashion.
> Messages I posted 15 minutes ago have still not appeared. (Normally
> this occurs almost instantly.)
>
> Worse, messages that I have already read are appearing again as UN-
> read. Not that I'll be able to see your reply for a while, but is
> anyone else noticing this?
>
> Can anyone recommend any other web-based newsgroup portals? I'm
> growing weary of Google's eternal attempts at reinventing the wheel.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Jay,

I noticed that same thing as well . . . and I have also wondered why
google keeps seeming to try to fix something that I as far as I could
tell, wasn't broken. I look to hearing some of the replies you get to
you question.

Take care . . . and blue skies to all

John

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Can anyone recommend any other web-based newsgroup portals?

Sorry, no. Use a real newsreader. :) I second the recommendations to
either 1) try out Martin Hotze's offer or 2) get a "text-only" or low-
volume account from one of the commercial news services.

Real newsreaders have been under continuous development since about 1981;
Web "newsreaders" have been under intermittent development since about
1995 or so. It shows.

Matt Roberds

[Jay Honeck]

> Sorry, no. Use a real newsreader. :)

I used a newsreader for years (and still could, on my home ISP,
Mediacom cable), but our hotel ISP is Qwest DSL, and they charge extra
for newsgroup access. Since I really can't justify paying extra hotel
money just to surf the newsgroups, I am forced to "get by" with
GoogleGroups.

And, to be honest, Google is an excellent way to access the 'groups,
usually. They just can't seem to leave well enough alone, and are
continually screwing up what is already a nearly flawless interface.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



I second the recommendations to
> either 1) try out Martin Hotze's offer or 2) get a "text-only" or low-
> volume account from one of the commercial news services.
>
> Real newsreaders have been under continuous development since about 1981;
> Web "newsreaders" have been under intermittent development since about
> 1995 or so. It shows.
>
> Matt Roberds

[Peter R.]

On 4/26/2007 9:45:21 PM, Jay Honeck wrote:

> I used a newsreader for years (and still could, on my home ISP,
> Mediacom cable), but our hotel ISP is Qwest DSL, and they charge extra
> for newsgroup access. Since I really can't justify paying extra hotel
> money just to surf the newsgroups, I am forced to "get by" with
> GoogleGroups.

WTF, Jay. Why did you ignore my post and selectively snip the other post that
recommended going with the free news service offered by one of this group's
own? Why are you whining about the extra cost of your ISP's newsgroup service
when there are free alternatives to both your own ISP's version and Google's
flaky service? Why is it that every six months or so you have to post about
your miserable experiences with Google's groups and then decline every bit of
advice suggesting quite capable and free alternatives?


--
Peter

[[email protected]]

On Apr 26, 9:21 pm, "Peter R." > wrote:
> On 4/26/2007 9:45:21 PM, Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> > I used a newsreader for years (and still could, on my home ISP,
> > Mediacom cable), but our hotel ISP is Qwest DSL, and they charge extra
> > for newsgroup access. Since I really can't justify paying extra hotel
> > money just to surf the newsgroups, I am forced to "get by" with
> > GoogleGroups.
>
> WTF, Jay. Why did you ignore my post and selectively snip the other post that
> recommended going with the free news service offered by one of this group's
> own? Why are you whining about the extra cost of your ISP's newsgroup service
> when there are free alternatives to both your own ISP's version and Google's
> flaky service? Why is it that every six months or so you have to post about
> your miserable experiences with Google's groups and then decline every bit of
> advice suggesting quite capable and free alternatives?
>
> --
> Peter

And what is this altnerative that you keep mentioning? Care to share
a URL?

[Peter R.]

On 4/26/2007 11:23:34 PM, wrote:

> And what is this altnerative that you keep mentioning? Care to share
> a URL?

http://tinyurl.com/yt9bwq

(scroll to the top of the thread)

or

a very quick Google search turned up this page:

http://freenews.maxbaud.net/


--
Peter

[Martin Hotze]

Peter R. schrieb:


> I know you two are newsgroup nemeses, but [...]

well, at least we both agree to disagree. :-)

regarding my usenet access offer: to each his own. Take it and use it or
leave it.

But I am interested in which groups you all are subscribed (I want to
get a bigger picture and see which groups might be worth adding.).

#m
--
I am not a terrorist <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> I used a newsreader for years (and still could, on my home ISP,
> Mediacom cable), but our hotel ISP is Qwest DSL, and they charge extra
> for newsgroup access. Since I really can't justify paying extra hotel
> money just to surf the newsgroups, I am forced to "get by" with
> GoogleGroups.

You don't have to get newsgroup access from your ISP! You can get free
or pay service from anybody you want, and just use whatever connection
you have handy. Specifically, this means that you could pay for
news service out of the "personal" bucket of money and just use the
connection at the hotel to access the pay news server.

If you don't want to spend any money at all, http://www.newzbot.com/
lists several free Usenet servers. Most of the free servers do not
allow posting, but if you just want to read, they work fine.

Matt Roberds

[Ron Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> All day yesterday Google Groups showed the "newest" messages as being
> more than 24 hours old.

There's lots of complaints on other groups as well. Something very
wrong has been happening there. Some even attributed it to censorship
(on the more controversial groups).

[Maxwell]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>> All day yesterday Google Groups showed the "newest" messages as being
>> more than 24 hours old.
>
> There's lots of complaints on other groups as well. Something very
> wrong has been happening there. Some even attributed it to censorship
> (on the more controversial groups).

I switched last week from my ISP's included service, because it was having
problems and later went down completly. But I was only on Thunder News for a
two days when it experienced the same progressive outtage.

Thinks seem normal here again, but who knows what's next.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:13:27 +0200, Martin Hotze >
wrote in >:

>regarding my usenet access offer: to each his own. Take it and use it or
>leave it.
>
>But I am interested in which groups you all are subscribed (I want to
>get a bigger picture and see which groups might be worth adding.).

Perhaps it is the anonymity provided by GoogleGroups, and the relative
inability of tracking who posts what to which newsgroups that makes
GoogleGroups so attractive to certain individuals. Or perhaps it's
GoogleGroup's inferior web-based user interface, and the lack of
necessity to configure the IP address of the nnpt server that some
desire.

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:52:18 GMT, wrote in >:

>Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> I used a newsreader for years (and still could, on my home ISP,
>> Mediacom cable), but our hotel ISP is Qwest DSL, and they charge extra
>> for newsgroup access. Since I really can't justify paying extra hotel
>> money just to surf the newsgroups, I am forced to "get by" with
>> GoogleGroups.

>You don't have to get newsgroup access from your ISP! You can get free
>or pay service from anybody you want, and just use whatever connection
>you have handy. Specifically, this means that you could pay for
>news service out of the "personal" bucket of money and just use the
>connection at the hotel to access the pay news server.

The cheapest service I found was Astraweb. $10 for 25 GB of bandwidth.
No time limit. Accessible with Agent from anywhere I travel.

I have scarcely scratched the surface of my 25 GB allowance since I read
text groups only. I shifted my primary allegiance to Supernews for
various and sundry reasons that are irrelevant here, but I still use
Astraweb from time to time when I'm on the road.

http://www.news.astraweb.com/plans.html

Marty
--
Big-8 newsgroups: humanities.*, misc.*, news.*, rec.*, sci.*, soc.*, talk.*
See http://www.big-8.org for info on how to add or remove newsgroups.

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 12:37:25 GMT, Larry Dighera > wrote in >:

>On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:13:27 +0200, Martin Hotze >
>wrote in >:
>
>>regarding my usenet access offer: to each his own. Take it and use it or
>>leave it.
>>
>>But I am interested in which groups you all are subscribed (I want to
>>get a bigger picture and see which groups might be worth adding.).
>
>Perhaps it is the anonymity provided by GoogleGroups, and the relative
>inability of tracking who posts what to which newsgroups that makes
>GoogleGroups so attractive to certain individuals. Or perhaps it's
>GoogleGroup's inferior web-based user interface, and the lack of
>necessity to configure the IP address of the nnpt server that some
>desire.

I love Google.

I'm grateful that they've preserved and augmented the deja archives.

I probably google newsgroups every day, if not six or eight times
a day.

I read and post through a news service provider using a Real Newsreader
(GARNA!) because that is so much more satisfying to me.

I understand that other people have different tastes and opinions ...

Marty
--
Big-8 newsgroups: humanities.*, misc.*, news.*, rec.*, sci.*, soc.*, talk.*
See http://www.big-8.org for info on how to add or remove newsgroups.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:18:41 -0400, "Martin X. Moleski, SJ"
> wrote in >:

>
>I'm grateful that they've preserved and augmented the deja archives.
>
>I probably google newsgroups every day, if not six or eight times
>a day.


I too am grateful that the content of Usenet is still on-line. But
I'm not happy with the restriction in search criteria imposed by
Google. Under DejaNews one could search on any text in the original
article including the header fields. Google thought we didn't need
that, and took it away. They obfuscate URLs. And Google's user
interface generally tends to get in the way, rather than facilitate
reading the news. I suppose that's why you and I don't use it except
for research.

GoogleGroups is also a portal for anonymous spam entry into Usenet.
GoogleGroups is not a responsible member of the Usenet community,
because they do not revoke access from users who post spam articles.
In the old days, if your site was a source of spam content, your
Usenet node would find itself disconnected. Progress... :-(

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:05:06 GMT, Larry Dighera > wrote in >:

> ... Google's user
>interface generally tends to get in the way, rather than facilitate
>reading the news. I suppose that's why you and I don't use it except
>for research.

I'd hate to have it be my only means of accessing and posting
to Usenet.

>GoogleGroups is also a portal for anonymous spam entry into Usenet.
>GoogleGroups is not a responsible member of the Usenet community,
>because they do not revoke access from users who post spam articles.
>In the old days, if your site was a source of spam content, your
>Usenet node would find itself disconnected. Progress... :-(

It's tough. I can see how they are caught between a rock
and a hard place. On balance, I think they do a lot more
good--vastly more good--than harm.

Marty
--
Big-8 newsgroups: humanities.*, misc.*, news.*, rec.*, sci.*, soc.*, talk.*
See http://www.big-8.org for info on how to add or remove newsgroups.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:27:55 -0400, "Martin X. Moleski, SJ"
> wrote in >:

> I can see how they are caught between a rock and a hard place.

I can't. How does GoogleGroups situation differ from other Usenet
gateways?

Enforcing their stated policies concerning the posting of articles to
Usenet doesn't seem to be too big a problem for most ISPs, premium
Usenet providers, and web-based gateways. Why shouldn't it be
expected of GoogleGroups too?

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:04:01 GMT, Larry Dighera > wrote in >:

>> I can see how they are caught between a rock and a hard place.

>I can't. How does GoogleGroups situation differ from other Usenet
>gateways?

[The following is based on guesses and surmises. I have
no inside information whatsoever about Google's actual
business plan.]

Seems to me that Google is providing services that are free to
end-users by selling other services to customers.

One of the services they provide is archiving Usenet--the
whole shooting match. It's a pretty amazing effort.

They can limit costs by limiting the processing of the data.
Putting people on duty to sort out what is and is not spam
diminishes their profits. Their profits are what allow them
to do the archiving and provide it free to end users.

So they could make a better archive if they were willing to
spend money on it--but spending money on it might make it
impossible to provide free access to the archive.

Another free service that they offer is gmail. They want
people to trust that they are not censoring their gmail
accounts. If they are too aggressive in closing accounts,
they may lose whatever the gmail business is worth to them.

>Enforcing their stated policies concerning the posting of articles to
>Usenet doesn't seem to be too big a problem for most ISPs, premium
>Usenet providers, and web-based gateways. Why shouldn't it be
>expected of GoogleGroups too?

I expect more from a service I pay for. One of the nice things
Supernews does is filter aggressively. It's amazing how much
stuff they clean up compared to other news servers I have used
(Google included). I appreciate that filtering, but I can see
why other news servers take a different approach. Astraweb
($10 for 25 GB) advertises itself as "Complete, uncensored
Usenet." Google seems to be located down at that end of
the spectrum.

Marty

--
Big-8 newsgroups: humanities.*, misc.*, news.*, rec.*, sci.*, soc.*, talk.*
See http://www.big-8.org for info on how to add or remove newsgroups.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:27:55 -0400, "Martin X. Moleski, SJ"
> > wrote in >:
>
>> I can see how they are caught between a rock and a hard place.
>
> I can't. How does GoogleGroups situation differ from other Usenet
> gateways?
>
> Enforcing their stated policies concerning the posting of articles to
> Usenet doesn't seem to be too big a problem for most ISPs, premium
> Usenet providers, and web-based gateways. Why shouldn't it be
> expected of GoogleGroups too?

Because Google Groups is free and they don't have a good way confirming you
are who you say you are. If I create a new account and spam with it on
Google I just open a new account when they close the old one. Supernews on
the other hand requires me to pay with a credit card or my ISP pays them.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:35:28 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
<wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in
>:

>Larry Dighera wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:27:55 -0400, "Martin X. Moleski, SJ"
>> > wrote in >:
>>
>>> I can see how they are caught between a rock and a hard place.
>>
>> I can't. How does GoogleGroups situation differ from other Usenet
>> gateways?
>>
>> Enforcing their stated policies concerning the posting of articles to
>> Usenet doesn't seem to be too big a problem for most ISPs, premium
>> Usenet providers, and web-based gateways. Why shouldn't it be
>> expected of GoogleGroups too?
>
>Because Google Groups is free

How does the fact that GoogleGroups doesn't charge for the use of
their web site give them license to act irresponsibly? Many free
web-based Usenet gateways do act responsibly; why not GoogleGroups?

>and they don't have a good way confirming you are who you say you are.

Sure they do. They not only have your IP address, they have the
information (username, password, etc) you used to create your
GoogleGrups account.

>If I create a new account and spam with it on Google I just open a new
>account when they close the old one.

So you're saying, that it's okay for GoogleGrups not to terminate the
accounts of those who have posted spam from their Usenet gateway,
because there's a possibility of another account being opened from the
same IP address? I disagree. When they see multiple GoogleGroups
accounts being opened by a user with the same IP address, I would hope
they will have a clue about what's going on.

>Supernews on the other hand requires me to pay with a credit card or my ISP pays them.

Therefore Supernews has a _disincentive_ for terminating the accounts
of those subscribers who use their Supernews account to inject spam
articles into the news stream. Yet Supernews acts responsibly, and
terminate the accounts of their subscribers who fail to adhere their
terms of use agreement, unlike GoogleGroups.

[Larry Dighera]

So as a member of the Big-8 whose mission it is to impart organization
to Usenet, you have no qualms about nodes that inject spam articles
into the news stream? I find that to be an interesting position, to
say the least.

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 01:08:48 GMT, Larry Dighera > wrote in >:

>So as a member of the Big-8 whose mission it is to impart organization
>to Usenet ...

The group of which I am a member deals with eight Usenet hierarchies,
not the whole of Usenet.

The "organization" that we bring to these eight hierarchies is to
maintain a canonical list of newsgroups. What people do with those
newsgroups is beyond our powers of "organization."

When I write in my own name (as I did in this case), I am speaking
only for myself as a participant in r.a.p. I am not speaking on
behalf of the board.

> ... you have no qualms about nodes that inject spam articles
>into the news stream?

If you want to campaign for Google to get the Usenet Death Penalty,
have at it. The big-8 board isn't involved in UDPs. Only the
news administrators can agree to isolate other news administrators.

>I find that to be an interesting position, to
>say the least.

Google has my profound gratitude and deepest sympathy.
I use their services every day--many times a day.
On balance, I think they do way more good than harm
to Usenet. YMMV.

Marty
--
Big-8 newsgroups: humanities.*, misc.*, news.*, rec.*, sci.*, soc.*, talk.*
See http://www.big-8.org for info on how to add or remove newsgroups.

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:25:23 GMT, Larry Dighera > wrote in >:

> ... When they see multiple GoogleGroups
>accounts being opened by a user with the same IP address, I would hope
>they will have a clue about what's going on.

IP addresses can be spoofed.

Some folks have dynamic IP addresses--it's not always
the same for the same user on the same computer.

Marty
--
Big-8 newsgroups: humanities.*, misc.*, news.*, rec.*, sci.*, soc.*, talk.*
See http://www.big-8.org for info on how to add or remove newsgroups.

[Jay Honeck]

> WTF, Jay. Why did you ignore my post and selectively snip the other post that
> recommended going with the free news service offered by one of this group's
> own?

I was trying to avoid the issue, but if you are referring to our
Austrian friend, I personally would not place anything of value --
even something so trivial as usenet access -- in the hands of someone
so...bizarre.

I prefer to place my business in the hands of rational beings, thank
you, and Marty has proved time and again, over a period of many years,
that he is (to put it politely) whacked. Even free is too high a
price.

> Why are you whining about the extra cost of your ISP's newsgroup service
> when there are free alternatives to both your own ISP's version and Google's
> flaky service? Why is it that every six months or so you have to post about
> your miserable experiences with Google's groups and then decline every bit of
> advice suggesting quite capable and free alternatives?

I was actually trying to see if this was a universal problem, or if
there was something wrong solely with my configuration/system.

Thankfully, it's a moot point, as GoogleGroups are back to their
normal, excellent selves...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> So chances are great that this topic won't be brought up by you again for a
> couple of months. Let's see what other topics "of general interest" will be
> brought up by you "in the name of all here" ...

At least my threads have *something* to do with
rec.aviation.piloting.

I just scanned 5 pages of your posts (again, something GoogleGroups
excels at) and slogged through your numerous posts on how stupid
presidential TFRs are, how stupid it is to expect English to be spoken
in the US, and an occasional comment on someone ELSE'S flying
experiences -- but strangely, none -- not one -- about your own
piloting experiences.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:18:19 -0400, "Martin X. Moleski, SJ"
> wrote in >:

>On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:25:23 GMT, Larry Dighera > wrote in >:
>
>> ... When they see multiple GoogleGroups
>>accounts being opened by a user with the same IP address, I would hope
>>they will have a clue about what's going on.
>
>IP addresses can be spoofed.
>
>Some folks have dynamic IP addresses--it's not always
>the same for the same user on the same computer.
>
> Marty

That is true. I overlooked that fact. But it's still no excuse for
not terminating the account from which spam is injected into the news
stream in my opinion.

[601XL Builder]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> Sure they do. They not only have your IP address, they have the
> information (username, password, etc) you used to create your
> GoogleGrups account.
>
>> If I create a new account and spam with it on Google I just open a new
>> account when they close the old one.
>
> So you're saying, that it's okay for GoogleGrups not to terminate the
> accounts of those who have posted spam from their Usenet gateway,
> because there's a possibility of another account being opened from the
> same IP address? I disagree. When they see multiple GoogleGroups
> accounts being opened by a user with the same IP address, I would hope
> they will have a clue about what's going on.
>
>> Supernews on the other hand requires me to pay with a credit card or my ISP pays them.
>
> Therefore Supernews has a _disincentive_ for terminating the accounts
> of those subscribers who use their Supernews account to inject spam
> articles into the news stream. Yet Supernews acts responsibly, and
> terminate the accounts of their subscribers who fail to adhere their
> terms of use agreement, unlike GoogleGroups.
>
>

Don't get me wrong, I agree that Google could do a better job but USENET
is a fairly small section of their business where at SuperNews and
others it is their business.

As far as the IP address goes, I can change it by simply unplugging my
cable modem and plugging it back in.

[Jay Honeck]

> >none -- not one -- about your own piloting experiences.
>
> So one has to submit those first to read and post here?
> Who says so? YOU? *haha*

If you want credibility and a reputation for honesty and authenticity,
then yes, you need to post about PILOTING on rec.aviation.piloting.
That *is* what this newsgroup is purportedly all about, after all.

Honestly, Marty, sometimes it seems like someone sucked all the oxygen
out of Austria...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Noel]

In article om>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:

> Honestly, Marty, sometimes it seems like someone sucked all the oxygen
> out of Austria...

I shouldn't do this, but I can't resist...

Jay: Did you see a recent Tonight Show when Jay Leno said a survey found
the most sexually satisfied people where in Austria?

(at least, I'm pretty sure he said Austria...)

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:55:32 -0400, "Martin X. Moleski, SJ"
> wrote in >:

>Seems to me that Google is providing services that are free to
>end-users by selling other services to customers.

Of course, that is true. But if it weren't for the content provided
by us, that revenue stream would dry up. Perhaps we should be
entitled to royalty fees. :-)