An Interview With Chuck Yeager

[Snidely[_2_]]

I stumbled across this recent interview of Chuck Yeager on a PBS station
in West Virginia.

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIeiMNjv0BQ
Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0tku2b-Xms

Not a good one for Yeager. He comes off as being quite arrogant and not
a little condescending. I'd heard rumblings from time to time that he's
sort of a prick, but until now had not seen or heard anything concrete.

I think it is sad.

[octothorpe]

"Snidely" > wrote in message
...
>I stumbled across this recent interview of Chuck Yeager on a PBS station in
>West Virginia.
>
> Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIeiMNjv0BQ
> Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0tku2b-Xms
>
> Not a good one for Yeager. He comes off as being quite arrogant and not a
> little condescending. I'd heard rumblings from time to time that he's sort
> of a prick, but until now had not seen or heard anything concrete.
>
> I think it is sad.

Thanks for the links. I enjoyed the interview. I thought it wasn't as
bad as you perceived it to be. It might be that I've been around enough of
the no-nonsense, "this-is-just-the-way-it-is" types that the style or lack
of style doesn't always interfere with the message. I remember my Dad and
some of his kin sound like Yeager. They're from the area around 50 miles
S.E. of Hamlin. I think Yeager's delivery is typical.

--
Tom

[George]

There are those that we admire for their achievements, and those that we
admire for their personality. If those two come together in one person
that is a big plus. But none the less, having done it all very well and
masterly tends to lead to a no nonsense approach to life. That sometimes
comes off as arrogant when it is merely life at a higher plane of
accomplishment, one for which no apology is necessary.

[redc1c4]

Clark wrote:
>
> George > wrote in news:FKcYh.5915$rO7.3155
> @newssvr25.news.prodigy.net:
>
> > There are those that we admire for their achievements, and those that we
> > admire for their personality. If those two come together in one person
> > that is a big plus. But none the less, having done it all very well and
> > masterly tends to lead to a no nonsense approach to life. That sometimes
> > comes off as arrogant when it is merely life at a higher plane of
> > accomplishment, one for which no apology is necessary.
>
> That's one perspective. Never forget that it takes a team and frequently luck
> is a factor. It's important enough that I'll type it again: it takes a team.
>
> Yeager never mentioned the folks that made it possible. That is a serious
> omission.

there may be no "i" in "team", but try spelling it without "me"......

redc1c4,
(and what got edited out of the interview before you saw it? %-)
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."

Army Officer's Guide

[Byron Covey]

I have had several one-on-one conversations with him, and can report that
you are incorrect. He is not "sort of a prick." He is 100% prick.

As another poster noted, he gives no credit to anyone other than himself,
with the possible exception of recognizing Bob Hoover as a good test pilot.


BJC


"Snidely" > wrote in message
...
>I stumbled across this recent interview of Chuck Yeager on a PBS station in
>West Virginia.
>
> Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIeiMNjv0BQ
> Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0tku2b-Xms
>
> Not a good one for Yeager. He comes off as being quite arrogant and not a
> little condescending. I'd heard rumblings from time to time that he's sort
> of a prick, but until now had not seen or heard anything concrete.
>
> I think it is sad.

[[email protected]]

On 27-Apr-2007, "Byron Covey" > wrote:

> He is not "sort of a prick." He is 100% prick.



And he's a bigot. It's a shame to see that someone who was promoted up to
Brigadier General in the USAF could still hold such attitudes. Two years ago
at EAA/Oshkosh, my wife and I went to see him give a talk titled "Best of
the Best", expecting it to be a motivational speech. He spent the first 10
minutes in a racist rant justifying locking up Japanese-Americans in
concentration camps during WW2. We were more than a little bit offended.
Several people of apparent Japanese descent got up and left. When he
finished this rant, we were disappointed that a number of people applauded
Yeager. We stayed awhile longer, and he began telling war stories about
being shot down and evading capture during the war. His language was foul,
and he came across as an arrogant asshole to us. We got up and left a few
minutes later. I won't bother seeing him speak again.
Scott Wilson

[Snidely[_2_]]

We were absolutely justified in locking up Japanese during the war, to
suggest otherwise is retarded. Unlike the so-called "wars" the US has
been in since then, WWII was a fight to the death. When up against a
capable and ruthless opponent that thinks of all others as sub-human,
there is no room for any PC bull****. Those that applauded that day
understand this.

Any Japanese (or anybody else) that are offended by this need to read
some history about how they (the Japanese) waged war at that time. Our
locking up a few people was absolutely harmless in every imaginable
respect in comparison. Don't believe it? Start reading. As good a place
to start as any is what is now called "the rape of Nanking".



wrote:
> And he's a bigot. It's a shame to see that someone who was promoted up to
> Brigadier General in the USAF could still hold such attitudes. Two years ago
> at EAA/Oshkosh, my wife and I went to see him give a talk titled "Best of
> the Best", expecting it to be a motivational speech. He spent the first 10
> minutes in a racist rant justifying locking up Japanese-Americans in
> concentration camps during WW2. We were more than a little bit offended.
> Several people of apparent Japanese descent got up and left. When he
> finished this rant, we were disappointed that a number of people applauded
> Yeager. We stayed awhile longer, and he began telling war stories about
> being shot down and evading capture during the war. His language was foul,
> and he came across as an arrogant asshole to us. We got up and left a few
> minutes later. I won't bother seeing him speak again.
> Scott Wilson

[William R Thompson]

On his way to my killfile, "Snidely" > trolled:

> We were absolutely justified in locking up Japanese during the war, to
> suggest otherwise is retarded. Unlike the so-called "wars" the US has been
> in since then, WWII was a fight to the death. When up against a capable
> and ruthless opponent that thinks of all others as sub-human, there is no
> room for any PC bull****. Those that applauded that day understand this.

> Any Japanese (or anybody else) that are offended by this need to read some
> history about how they (the Japanese) waged war at that time. Our locking
> up a few people was absolutely harmless in every imaginable respect in
> comparison. Don't believe it? Start reading. As good a place to start as
> any is what is now called "the rape of Nanking".

1: There is a considerable difference between "Japanese citizens living
in US territory" and "American citrizens of Japanese ancestry." Interning
foreign nationals during time of war is legal, and obviously a good idea.
Detaining American citizens on the basis of their ancestry is neither
legal nor a good idea. (And I don't recall that any of my Prussian
ancestors were locked up during either of the World Wars.)

2: Even at the time the internment was condemned by various American
citizens, as both unconstitutional and a waste of resources. That includes
military commanders, who didn't want to tie up soldiers in guarding
American citizens, didn't want to spend the war twiddling their thumbs
as prison guards, and remembered that they'd taken oaths to defend
the Constitution.

3: Exactly how many of the internees were involved in the Rape of Nanking,
the Bataan Death March, the wholesale murder of Chinese citizens after
the Doolittle raid, or any other atrocity? For that matter, do you know
how many Japanese-American internees were locked up?

4: You *do* realize that the concept of collective guilt is one which was
embraced by the Axis powers when they executed innocent people in reprisals?
And that the US specifically rejected that concept when we signed the
Geneva conventions?

5: "PC bull****"? Idiots like you always whine about "political
correctness"
when they're tagged as the ignorant bigots they are.

--Bill Thompson

[Jose[_2_]]

Look! A PC idiot! The truth always draws them out. Probably loses sleep
that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked, too.

[Wayne Paul]

I served in Vietnam with loyal Americans who spent WWII in internment camps.
Their parents were second generation Americans who owned orchards in
California, which they were required to sale at a great financial loss.

Like them I am a third generation American with German ancestry. Why were
they interned and I allowed a normal youth? Were they less of an American
then I? If so, why?

Bye the way, one of my friends with Japanese ancestry also spent time in
the Hanoi Hilton. When his mother was interviewed by the news media she
stated "you know, this is the second time he has been a prisoner of war.
The first time was in Idaho."

I am saddened that there are people who still don't see the injustice in the
mass internment of west coast US Citizens with Japanese ancestry.

Wayne
CDR USN (Retired)


"Snidely" > wrote in message
...
> We were absolutely justified in locking up Japanese during the war, to
> suggest otherwise is retarded. Unlike the so-called "wars" the US has been
> in since then, WWII was a fight to the death. When up against a capable
> and ruthless opponent that thinks of all others as sub-human, there is no
> room for any PC bull****. Those that applauded that day understand this.
>
> Any Japanese (or anybody else) that are offended by this need to read some
> history about how they (the Japanese) waged war at that time. Our locking
> up a few people was absolutely harmless in every imaginable respect in
> comparison. Don't believe it? Start reading. As good a place to start as
> any is what is now called "the rape of Nanking".
>
>
>
> wrote:
>> And he's a bigot. It's a shame to see that someone who was promoted up to
>> Brigadier General in the USAF could still hold such attitudes. Two years
>> ago
>> at EAA/Oshkosh, my wife and I went to see him give a talk titled "Best of
>> the Best", expecting it to be a motivational speech. He spent the first
>> 10
>> minutes in a racist rant justifying locking up Japanese-Americans in
>> concentration camps during WW2. We were more than a little bit offended.
>> Several people of apparent Japanese descent got up and left. When he
>> finished this rant, we were disappointed that a number of people
>> applauded
>> Yeager. We stayed awhile longer, and he began telling war stories about
>> being shot down and evading capture during the war. His language was
>> foul,
>> and he came across as an arrogant asshole to us. We got up and left a few
>> minutes later. I won't bother seeing him speak again.
>> Scott Wilson

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Snidely wrote:
> We were absolutely justified in locking up Japanese during the war, to
> suggest otherwise is retarded.

Interning enemy aliens is fairly standard, and generally thought to be a
good idea, sure.

We were not, however, justified in locking up American citizens, born in
the United States, who happened to have parents of Japanese descent
(often also American citizens, but naturalized rather than native-born).

Nor did they see a need to do this in (for example) Hawaii, where you
might think there was an even better argument for it.

And there was *certainly* no justification in confiscating and not
returning their property into the bargain.

The whole thing was barbaric, and a major national embarrassment.

The Rape of Nanking was barbaric, but it tells us nothing about the
ethical or practical considerations involved in herding a bunch of
American citizens into concentration camps. To think that it does is
the very essence of racism.

[Dave Kearton]

redc1c4 wrote:

>>
>> there may be no "i" in "team", but try spelling it without "me"......
>>
>> redc1c4,
>> (and what got edited out of the interview before you saw it? %-)
>> --
>> "Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
>> considerable watching."
>>
>> Army Officer's Guide



This being a binary group, Gordon doesn't have ready access, but has sent
me these comments.




"We used to meet him several times per year. A group of us would run into
him and invariably, he would lash out at one or another of us - loyal camp
followers whose only crime was wanting to be close enough to hear a bit of
history from the lips of this larger than life belligerent. Once, I found
myself in a huge auditorium with just him and I - we looked around, waiting
for the inrush of American fighter aces and their throng of fans. He sized
me up for about the twentieth time, then made a disgusted snort and went to
sit down at his table. the guy that ran the reunion came in and offered me
a free Yeager poster for him to sign. He signed it crisp and clean but
couldn't help himself. "That f_____ will be on eBay before the ink is dry."
Another snort. This time, I was fed up. "General, I first met you on a
cross country flight 16 years ago - over the years, you have singed about
twenty things for me, and they make up the heart of my little kid's ace
collection. I've never sold anything you signed for us. Never will." With
that, I stomped off to be with some ace friends with a little less jackass
in them.

A couple days later, a large buffet table outside the winding down
conference. The last of the 'camp followers' sat around, trading stories of
Chuck's abuses over the years. All eight of us had at least a couple good
stories of being berated, insulted, belittled, etc, at the hands of the
master. At this moment, Chuck himself walks up to the table and looks at
all of us. We freeze. Here it comes boys. Steady, lads...

What followed was about a minute long thank you from Chuck. He salted it of
course, but the point was, he was grateful that we looked up to him and the
other aces. His peace stated, he turned an walked away, close on the 6 of a
passing lovely woman. Get'er Chuck! We sat at the table in total
disbelief. "Now where in the hell does THAT go in our anthology of Yeager
stories??" It was so out of character was all sat there laughing. Chuck
said something nice to us! I bet all eight of us from that table all
remember that particular moment, when we interacted with General Yeager and
he _didn't_ say something crass."




--

Cheers

Dave Kearton

[William R Thompson]

"Jose" > wrote:

> Look! A PC idiot! The truth always draws them out. Probably loses sleep
> that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked, too.

Do you have any evidence to support that statement? No.
Are you even capable of addressing the points I raised?
I see no evidence of that. Should I take it for granted
that you're a bigot who despises the Constitution, or
do I even need to ask that question? Never mind, you're
going into my killfile.

Meanwhile, to stay on-topic, here's a picture from

http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~jaf/caf.html

showing Ben Kuroki, a gunner in B-24s, after he completed
his missions over Europe. Everyone else in the picture seems
glad that he wasn't interned.

--Bill Thompson

[Anno v. Heimburg]

William R Thompson wrote:

> "Jose" > wrote:
>
>> Look! A PC idiot! The truth always draws them out. Probably loses sleep
>> that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked, too.

> Should I take it for granted
> that you're a bigot who despises the Constitution, or
> do I even need to ask that question? Never mind, you're
> going into my killfile.

What? He made an on-topic. ironically funny remark supporting your point (at
least, that's how I took it). Or am I not getting you being
ironic/sarcastic?

Anno.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"William R Thompson" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> 1: There is a considerable difference between "Japanese citizens living
> in US territory" and "American citrizens of Japanese ancestry." Interning
> foreign nationals during time of war is legal, and obviously a good idea.
> Detaining American citizens on the basis of their ancestry is neither
> legal nor a good idea. (And I don't recall that any of my Prussian
> ancestors were locked up during either of the World Wars.)
>

While it was not as wide spread and is not nearly as well known as the
incarceration of Japanese-Americans, there were Americans of Italian and
German descent that received similar treatment. I'm working from memory
now, but I believe approximately 5000 Italian-Americans, 10,000
German-Americans, and 120,000 Japanese-Americans were interned during the
war. As I recall, Italian-American internment ended shortly after Italy
surrendered in 1943. German-American internment lasted until well after the
war ended, 1947 I believe. Some internees were even transferred to Germany
after the war! I don't remember when Japanese-American internment ended.

[J.F.]

I remember back in 1986, I was stationed at Beale AFB in California. My
wife and I were shopping in the commissary and Chuck Yeager was in there
also. I tried to speak to him and he totally ignored me. He lived outside
the Grass Valley Gate at Beale and was seen alot on base. On the other
hand, when I was stationed at Wright Patterson AFB in Ohio, I used to take
care of Paul Tibbits and his wife when I was a medic in 1990. He is a very
friendly guy and willing to speak with anyone.
> wrote in message
et...
>
>
> On 27-Apr-2007, "Byron Covey" > wrote:
>
>> He is not "sort of a prick." He is 100% prick.
>
>
>
> And he's a bigot. It's a shame to see that someone who was promoted up to
> Brigadier General in the USAF could still hold such attitudes. Two years
> ago
> at EAA/Oshkosh, my wife and I went to see him give a talk titled "Best of
> the Best", expecting it to be a motivational speech. He spent the first 10
> minutes in a racist rant justifying locking up Japanese-Americans in
> concentration camps during WW2. We were more than a little bit offended.
> Several people of apparent Japanese descent got up and left. When he
> finished this rant, we were disappointed that a number of people applauded
> Yeager. We stayed awhile longer, and he began telling war stories about
> being shot down and evading capture during the war. His language was foul,
> and he came across as an arrogant asshole to us. We got up and left a few
> minutes later. I won't bother seeing him speak again.
> Scott Wilson

[William R Thompson]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> "William R Thompson" wrote:

>> 1: There is a considerable difference between "Japanese citizens living
>> in US territory" and "American citrizens of Japanese ancestry."
>> Interning
>> foreign nationals during time of war is legal, and obviously a good idea.
>> Detaining American citizens on the basis of their ancestry is neither
>> legal nor a good idea. (And I don't recall that any of my Prussian
>> ancestors were locked up during either of the World Wars.)

> While it was not as wide spread and is not nearly as well known as the
> incarceration of Japanese-Americans, there were Americans of Italian and
> German descent that received similar treatment. I'm working from memory
> now, but I believe approximately 5000 Italian-Americans, 10,000
> German-Americans, and 120,000 Japanese-Americans were interned during the
> war. As I recall, Italian-American internment ended shortly after Italy
> surrendered in 1943. German-American internment lasted until well after
> the
> war ended, 1947 I believe. Some internees were even transferred to
> Germany
> after the war! I don't remember when Japanese-American internment ended.

Most of the Japanese-American internment camps were closed by November
1945, although one in California remained in business until some time in
1946
(I think it was for internees who refused to take loyalty oaths).
German-American
internments officially ended in 1947, although apparently some people were
still in
custody as late as 1948. Some of the Italian and German internees were
relatives
of internees, who "volunteered" to be interned with them (how a child
"volunteers"
for anything is beyond me).

Your version of German-American and Italian-American internments is more
detailed than what I learned about a dozen years ago. There's a good
resource
(more up-to-date than what I knew) at

http://www.foitimes.com/internment/gasummary.htm

Very disturbing stuff. What's worse, interning everyone in an ethnic group,
or
doing an incompetent job of law enforcement against specific members of
another group?

(In an effort to stay on-topic, here's a picture of Ben Kuroki in his flight
gear.
I haven't found any pictures of his aircraft yet.)

--Bill Thompson

[Wayne Paul]

"Snidely" > wrote in message
...
> We were absolutely justified in locking up Japanese during the war, to
> suggest otherwise is retarded. Unlike the so-called "wars" the US has been
> in since then, WWII was a fight to the death. When up against a capable
> and ruthless opponent that thinks of all others as sub-human, there is no
> room for any PC bull****. Those that applauded that day understand this.
>
> Any Japanese (or anybody else) that are offended by this need to read some
> history about how they (the Japanese) waged war at that time. Our locking
> up a few people was absolutely harmless in every imaginable respect in
> comparison. Don't believe it? Start reading. As good a place to start as
> any is what is now called "the rape of Nanking".
>

One case that I am familiar with is that of the Nakagawa family. They owned
an orchard in Oregon. When the decree was issued they were required to sale
their property, which they had recently purchased, within 24 hours. The
"sharks" came out and their best offer was about 1% of the value of their
property. They were required to leave with only the items that could be
packed in a suitcase and shipped out to a desolate camp in Idaho.
(http://www.nps.gov/archive/miin/home.htm)

One of the sons of this family was named Gordon. He was an A-6 Intruder
pilot during Vietnam and was unfortunate enough to be shot down and spend
some time in the "Hanoi Hilton" POW prison. Shortly after he was captured
his mother was interviewed by CBS television. During that interview she
stated "you know, this is the second time Gordon was a prisoner of war. The
first time was in Idaho." (http://www.pownetwork.org/bios/n/n041.htm)

You can't deny that the Japanese internment was based on race. Gordon is a
forth generation American citizen who was interned. I am a forth generation
American with German ancestry whose father didn't speak English until after
he entered public school. Gordon was lock up and my family were allowed to
continue a normal life.

Post war review of the families in the Minidoka camp has shown that NONE
were security risks. The only explanation for their internment is racism
and greed for the prime farmland they owned.

Wayne
CDR USN (Retired)
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Wayne Paul" > wrote in message
...
>
> You can't deny that the Japanese internment was based on race.
>

What was German and Italian internment based on?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Snidely" > wrote in message
...
>
> Not a good one for Yeager. He comes off as being quite arrogant and not a
> little condescending. I'd heard rumblings from time to time that he's sort
> of a prick, but until now had not seen or heard anything concrete.
>
> I think it is sad.
>

I've heard him described as an arrogant braggard, but I don't think he comes
off as bad as you think in this interview. His comments about Gabreski are
what raised my eyebrows. The interviewer said Gabreski shot down a lot of
airplanes, Yeager "corrected" him, stating that Gabreski destroyed a lot of
airplanes but many were on the gtound. I believe Gabreski is credited with
28 aerial victories and 2.5 aircraft destroyed on the ground in WWII, with
an additional 6.5 aerial victories in Korea. Yeager is credited with 11.5
victories.

[Wayne Paul]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Wayne Paul" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> You can't deny that the Japanese internment was based on race.
>>
>
> What was German and Italian internment based on?
>

Resident aliens?

A few questions for you:



What was the percentage of interned Italians and Germans were Resident
aliens, Nationalized U.S. Citizens, and Citizens Born in the USA?



My father spoke with a strong German accent and he was never questioned.
His grand parents immigrated and became citizens. If they would have come
from Japan instead of Germany we would have been interned.



If you can show me that the interned Germans and Italians had as high a
percentage of US Citizens as the Japanese, I will concede that it was not a
mater of race.



Wayne

http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

[chuck]

I can guarantee that He doesn't suffer fools. Take that for what it's worth.
Chuck
"Byron Covey" > wrote in message
...
>I have had several one-on-one conversations with him, and can report that
>you are incorrect. He is not "sort of a prick." He is 100% prick.
>
> As another poster noted, he gives no credit to anyone other than himself,
> with the possible exception of recognizing Bob Hoover as a good test
> pilot.
>
>
> BJC
>
>
> "Snidely" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I stumbled across this recent interview of Chuck Yeager on a PBS station
>>in West Virginia.
>>
>> Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIeiMNjv0BQ
>> Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0tku2b-Xms
>>
>> Not a good one for Yeager. He comes off as being quite arrogant and not a
>> little condescending. I'd heard rumblings from time to time that he's
>> sort of a prick, but until now had not seen or heard anything concrete.
>>
>> I think it is sad.
>
>

[Grumpy AuContraire[_2_]]

Anno v. Heimburg wrote:

> William R Thompson wrote:
>
>
>>"Jose" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Look! A PC idiot! The truth always draws them out. Probably loses sleep
>>>that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked, too.
>
>
>>Should I take it for granted
>>that you're a bigot who despises the Constitution, or
>>do I even need to ask that question? Never mind, you're
>>going into my killfile.
>
>
> What? He made an on-topic. ironically funny remark supporting your point (at
> least, that's how I took it). Or am I not getting you being
> ironic/sarcastic?
>
> Anno.


I think That Mr. Thompson's assumption was correct.

However, internment was a decision made during a difficult time and
right or wrong, it is way in the past.

What I really fear is just what action we will take when radical Islam
is attacking *our* infrastructure and very way of life. IOW, just what
will it take for us, (the West), to wake up and smell the brew???

JT

[Grumpy AuContraire[_2_]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "Wayne Paul" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>You can't deny that the Japanese internment was based on race.
>>
>
>
> What was German and Italian internment based on?
>
>


I think that it is well documented that American POW(s) fared far worse
under Japanese oversight than that of either Germany or Italy. It's all
about culture, not race. Further reinforcement of this belief is the
plight of those that were held by the VC where survival was virtually
non-existent. Add to the mix North Korea and North Vietnam.

Guantanamo is probably a resort as compared to the above...

JT

[George]

JT, Just what do you mean by "when"

The brew already smells, they have just sent their "moderate" brethren
to try to conquer us by non violent means first. Their overall goal has
not changed since we first sent the Marines after them, they have merely
changed methods.

George

[Grumpy AuContraire[_2_]]

George wrote:

> JT, Just what do you mean by "when"
>
> The brew already smells, they have just sent their "moderate" brethren
> to try to conquer us by non violent means first. Their overall goal has
> not changed since we first sent the Marines after them, they have merely
> changed methods.
>
> George


Probably the first dirty bomb on domestic territory...

JT

[Mike Mackenzie]

"Byron Covey" > wrote (in part):

>As another poster noted, he gives no credit to anyone other than himself,
>with the possible exception of recognizing Bob Hoover as a good test pilot.

Now there's someone I really admire. Not only is he one of the
world's best pilots, but he's a really nice guy. We got him out to
one of our airshows at Archerfield (Brisbane) about ten years ago, and
he did his usual immaculate performances in both a Shrike Commander
and a Trojan. After the show, at the Aero Club, he was happy to talk
to and encourage anyone interested in aviation, and he autographed
just about anything.

And, of course, the girls loved him.

Mike

--
Mike Mackenzie (AVCOM Services)
Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
Remove "XYZ" from the "Reply to" address when responding by email.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Wayne Paul" > wrote in message
...
>
> Resident aliens?
>

No, American citizens of German and Italian descent.


>
> A few questions for you:
>
> What was the percentage of interned Italians and Germans were Resident
> aliens, Nationalized U.S. Citizens, and Citizens Born in the USA?
>

I don't know.


>
> My father spoke with a strong German accent and he was never questioned.
> His grand parents immigrated and became citizens. If they would have come
> from Japan instead of Germany we would have been interned.
>
> If you can show me that the interned Germans and Italians had as high a
> percentage of US Citizens as the Japanese, I will concede that it was not
> a mater of race.
>

Why would that be relevant?

[Wayne Paul]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Wayne Paul" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Resident aliens?
>>
>
> No, American citizens of German and Italian descent.
>
>
>>
>> A few questions for you:
>>
>> What was the percentage of interned Italians and Germans were Resident
>> aliens, Nationalized U.S. Citizens, and Citizens Born in the USA?
>>
>
> I don't know.
>
>
>>
>> My father spoke with a strong German accent and he was never questioned.
>> His grand parents immigrated and became citizens. If they would have
>> come
>> from Japan instead of Germany we would have been interned.
>>
>> If you can show me that the interned Germans and Italians had as high a
>> percentage of US Citizens as the Japanese, I will concede that it was not
>> a mater of race.
>>
>
> Why would that be relevant?

OK, let us change that comparison. What percentage of the Germans and
Italians interned were actual threats to the security of the war effort. If
that percentage is as low as the interned Japanese, I will concede that it
was not a mater of race.

All the west coast Japanese were interned, not just a segment of the
community. By the numbers you quoted earlier it is obvious that the
Government had a criteria for selecting specific Italians and specific
Germans for the camps. The criteria for the Japanese was simply being
Japanese.

I know the criteria for the Germans wasn't that broad, because none of my
family were interned nor was any other German family that we knew.

The paranoia and associated fear of the time is understandable; however,
after 60 years failing to recognize the injustice of our actions is
inexcusable.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Wayne Paul" > wrote in message
...
>
> OK, let us change that comparison. What percentage of the Germans and
> Italians interned were actual threats to the security of the war effort.
> If that percentage is as low as the interned Japanese, I will concede that
> it was not a mater of race.
>

I don't know, I imagine it's a rather low percentage.


>
> All the west coast Japanese were interned, not just a segment of the
> community. By the numbers you quoted earlier it is obvious that the
> Government had a criteria for selecting specific Italians and specific
> Germans for the camps. The criteria for the Japanese was simply being
> Japanese.
>

What do you base that on?


>
> I know the criteria for the Germans wasn't that broad, because none of my
> family were interned nor was any other German family that we knew.
>

Is that the limit of your research? Why do you assume race was the only
issue? Could geography have been an issue? What percentage of
Japanese-Americans were concentrated in more defense sensitive areas like
the west coast versus less sensitive areas like Milwaukee? Could time or
history have been issues? German immigration began before the US
revolution, and Germans served in the Comntinental Army. Japanese
immigration to the US was more recent.


>
> The paranoia and associated fear of the time is understandable; however,
> after 60 years failing to recognize the injustice of our actions is
> inexcusable.
>

But we have recognized the injustice done to Japanese-Americans. We haven't
recognized the injustice done to German-Americans. Most Americans aren't
even aware that US citizens of German descent were interned during WWII.
The fact that it was done in fewer numbers than with Japanese-Americans
makes it no less of an injustice to those that were interned.

[Wayne Paul]

Steven,

This is my last reply.

My opinions are based on personal experience. As a child I lived on the
west coast in a community with a large Japanese population. I have seen the
injustice and its' effect on people I know and saw my school class mates
were herded of to internment camps. As an adult I have listened to their
stories. I believe them.

Wayne
CDR USN (Retired)


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Wayne Paul" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> OK, let us change that comparison. What percentage of the Germans and
>> Italians interned were actual threats to the security of the war effort.
>> If that percentage is as low as the interned Japanese, I will concede
>> that it was not a mater of race.
>>
>
> I don't know, I imagine it's a rather low percentage.
>
>
>>
>> All the west coast Japanese were interned, not just a segment of the
>> community. By the numbers you quoted earlier it is obvious that the
>> Government had a criteria for selecting specific Italians and specific
>> Germans for the camps. The criteria for the Japanese was simply being
>> Japanese.
>>
>
> What do you base that on?
>
>
>>
>> I know the criteria for the Germans wasn't that broad, because none of my
>> family were interned nor was any other German family that we knew.
>>
>
> Is that the limit of your research? Why do you assume race was the only
> issue? Could geography have been an issue? What percentage of
> Japanese-Americans were concentrated in more defense sensitive areas like
> the west coast versus less sensitive areas like Milwaukee? Could time or
> history have been issues? German immigration began before the US
> revolution, and Germans served in the Comntinental Army. Japanese
> immigration to the US was more recent.
>
>
>>
>> The paranoia and associated fear of the time is understandable; however,
>> after 60 years failing to recognize the injustice of our actions is
>> inexcusable.
>>
>
> But we have recognized the injustice done to Japanese-Americans. We
> haven't recognized the injustice done to German-Americans. Most Americans
> aren't even aware that US citizens of German descent were interned during
> WWII. The fact that it was done in fewer numbers than with
> Japanese-Americans makes it no less of an injustice to those that were
> interned.
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Wayne Paul" > wrote in message
...
>
> Steven,
>
> This is my last reply.
>
> My opinions are based on personal experience. As a child I lived on the
> west coast in a community with a large Japanese population. I have seen
> the injustice and its' effect on people I know and saw my school class
> mates were herded of to internment camps. As an adult I have listened to
> their stories. I believe them.
>
> Wayne
> CDR USN (Retired)
>

Right. Best not to let your position be influenced by additional
information or logic.

[William R Thompson]

"Wayne Paul" wrote:

> OK, let us change that comparison. What percentage of the Germans and
> Italians interned were actual threats to the security of the war effort.
> If
> that percentage is as low as the interned Japanese, I will concede that it
> was not a matter of race.

> All the west coast Japanese were interned, not just a segment of the
> community. By the numbers you quoted earlier it is obvious that the
> Government had a criteria for selecting specific Italians and specific
> Germans for the camps. The criteria for the Japanese was simply being
> Japanese.

That's pretty much what the Supreme Court found in ex parte Mitsuye Endo:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=323&invol=283

This was a 1944 decision which found the internment both inherently
racist and of dubious military necessity, and that the practice exceeded
the bounds of the executive order and other acts at question here.

The Korematsu v. United States decision (also 1944) decided that it
would be constitutional to intern US citizens on the basis of ancestry,
when there was a pressing public need, but the decision has been
called into question because

The Hawaiian experience during the war makes mass internment seem
even more useless. Of the 158,000 ethnic Japanese in the Hawaiian
Territory, only some 2,500 were interned, and only one man--someone named
Harada--had any involvement in aiding the Japanese. The remaining 155,000
or so never did anything to hinder the US war effort.

Digging up the numbers on whole populations versus internees took some
doing.
I found some information at the bottom of

http://www.ww2pacific.com/relocation.html

American residents of German birth: 1,237,000
Guesstimated Americans of German ancestry: about 52,000,000

Japanese nationals and Japanese-American citizens in the continental US:
126,749
Interned: 110,000.
"Willingly" relocated from the restricted area: 10,000.

The percentage of interned Germans and German-Americans wasn't even 1%.

For those of Japanese ancestry, internment was about 84%. Add in the people
who had to leave the West Coast and southern Arizona, and 95% of them
were affected.

To stay on-topic for ABPA, here's a picture of one of Ben
Kuroki's planes. I think it's the one from the Ploesti raid.

--Bill Thompson

[Tori fan]

Chuck I mean General Yeager is an asshole alright.

But then so am I.

Waldo.

[redc1c4]

Snidely wrote:
>
> We were absolutely justified in locking up Japanese during the war, to
> suggest otherwise is retarded. Unlike the so-called "wars" the US has
> been in since then, WWII was a fight to the death. When up against a
> capable and ruthless opponent that thinks of all others as sub-human,
> there is no room for any PC bull****. Those that applauded that day
> understand this.
>
> Any Japanese (or anybody else) that are offended by this need to read
> some history about how they (the Japanese) waged war at that time. Our
> locking up a few people was absolutely harmless in every imaginable
> respect in comparison. Don't believe it? Start reading. As good a place
> to start as any is what is now called "the rape of Nanking".

442 RCT and the 100th INf Bn.

redc1c4,
going for broke..... %-)
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."

Army Officer's Guide

[redc1c4]

Jose wrote:
>
> Look! A PC idiot! The truth always draws them out. Probably loses sleep
> that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked, too.

not too far from where i live, there is (for Lost Angels) an old cemetery.

said cemetery resides in what is now a Hispanic neighborhood, but if one
tours the area, the former synagogues are easy to pick out, despite the
new owners changes.

what is less known is the number of Japanese immigrants who lived there.

a quick trip through the small patch of ground in question will change
that......barring willful stupidity, of course.

on behalf of their sacrifices, all i can say is: cállate puto!

redc1c4,
you're not fit to cut the grass on their graves, cerote.
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."

Army Officer's Guide

[redc1c4]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>
> "Wayne Paul" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Steven,
> >
> > This is my last reply.
> >
> > My opinions are based on personal experience. As a child I lived on the
> > west coast in a community with a large Japanese population. I have seen
> > the injustice and its' effect on people I know and saw my school class
> > mates were herded of to internment camps. As an adult I have listened to
> > their stories. I believe them.
> >
> > Wayne
> > CDR USN (Retired)
> >
>
> Right. Best not to let your position be influenced by additional
> information or logic.

do you have any to offer regarding the issue under discussion?

redc1c4,
white smoke is neither, btw...... %-)
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."

Army Officer's Guide

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"redc1c4" > wrote in message
...
>
> do you have any to offer regarding the issue under discussion?
>

What would you like?

[William R Thompson]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "redc1c4" wrote:

>> do you have any to offer regarding the issue under discussion?

> What would you like?

How about the date on which the writ of habeas corpus was suspended
in regard to the internees? How about identifying the order which
allowed the War Relocation Authority to hold 110,000 people in
custody against their will?

--Bill Thompson

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"William R Thompson" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> How about the date on which the writ of habeas corpus was suspended
> in regard to the internees? How about identifying the order which
> allowed the War Relocation Authority to hold 110,000 people in
> custody against their will?
>

No idea. Have you tried Google?

[William R Thompson]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> "William R Thompson" wrote:

>> How about the date on which the writ of habeas corpus was suspended
>> in regard to the internees? How about identifying the order which
>> allowed the War Relocation Authority to hold 110,000 people in
>> custody against their will?

> No idea. Have you tried Google?

Unfortunately Google is not always useful.

Reading ex parte Endo, it appears that habeas corpus was not suspended
here. The War Relocation Authority conceded that it had no power to
hold anyone prisoner; in fact no one had the power to hold the internees
prisoner once they were out of the prohibited zones. There may be some
obscure note, somewhere, which says otherwise, but I can't find it (and
suspending the writ wouldn't be an obscure act).

--Bill Thompson