Twenty minutes in the queue awaiting the new and improved FSS

[Peter R.]

Called Lockheed Martin FSS this AM for my flight briefing. Spent 20 minutes
in the "we are experiencing high call volume" queue waiting for a live
briefer to take my call.

When one finally did, he was servicing my upstate NY state flight from
Phoenix, Az. Nice enough briefer but so much for the local knowledge.

Wasn't there a promise by Lockheed Martin that wait times would be one minute
or less? In the four years I have been commuting by aircraft the longest I
previously waited for a Buffalo FSS briefer was five minutes.

--
Peter

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Called Lockheed Martin FSS this AM for my flight briefing. Spent 20
> minutes
> in the "we are experiencing high call volume" queue waiting for a live
> briefer to take my call.

Call them and complain. At least they'll take complaints.

>
> When one finally did, he was servicing my upstate NY state flight from
> Phoenix, Az. Nice enough briefer but so much for the local knowledge.

Yeah, when I was in Montrose, the nearest briefer was 90 ,iles away across a
mountain range.

We should have one in every town like when the phone operator was in every
town and she could even recommend a good restuarant.

>
> Wasn't there a promise by Lockheed Martin that wait times would be one
> minute
> or less?

Yes. Was your last call the rule, or an exception.

> In the four years I have been commuting by aircraft the longest I
> previously waited for a Buffalo FSS briefer was five minutes.

Just wait until volume doubles and triples over the next few years - you
might have to wait that long EVERY time.

--
Matt Barrow
Performace Homes, LLC.
Colorado Springs, CO

[Robert M. Gary]

On Apr 30, 8:48 am, "Peter R." > wrote:
> Called Lockheed Martin FSS this AM for my flight briefing. Spent 20 minutes
> in the "we are experiencing high call volume" queue waiting for a live
> briefer to take my call.
>
> When one finally did, he was servicing my upstate NY state flight from
> Phoenix, Az. Nice enough briefer but so much for the local knowledge.
>
> Wasn't there a promise by Lockheed Martin that wait times would be one minute
> or less? In the four years I have been commuting by aircraft the longest I
> previously waited for a Buffalo FSS briefer was five minutes.
>
> --
> Peter

Yea, same thing happened to me. I had to call FSS to get the new
clearance delivery phone number (its an odd day I can't depart VFR),
then after getting the number, found out my clearance was lost and I
had to call FSS back to refile. Total time on the phone almost an
hour, sitting in an idle plane just trying to get a void time!!!

BTW: The "funniest" part of the situation: as soon as I took off
departure told me there were two IFRs on file for me, did I want the
original or the one I just got a void time for!!
-Robert

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:48:46 -0400, "Peter R." >
wrote in >:

>Wasn't there a promise by Lockheed Martin that wait times would be one minute
>or less?

Here's some information from a previous article:


>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> AVwebFlash Volume 12, Number 26b -- June 29, 2006
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> AOPA LISTS PERFORMANCE PARAMETERS
>>> (http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/667-full.html#192587)
>>> When Lockheed took over the system, the company set its
>>> performance standards high. AOPA this week provided details
>>> (http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2006/060623afss.html) of
>>> what kind of service you should be getting -- and said if you're
>>> not getting it, you should report that via the feedback form on
>>> the new Web portal. (After all, you paid for it.) According to
>>> AOPA, the AFSS should answer your phone call within 20 seconds and
>>> radio calls within 5 seconds. You must receive service from your
>>> radio call within 15 seconds. PIREPs must be processed within 30
>>> seconds and within 15 seconds if they are urgent. Briefers must
>>> have knowledge of the unique weather conditions in your area.
>>> Briefers must meet those standards whether it is a busy, clear
>>> summer day or a slow, dreary day in winter, AOPA says.
>>> http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/667-full.html#192587
>>> and, BTIZ' complaint: "after 10 rings the system disconnected," it's
>>> becoming clear how a large corporation meets its 20-second maximum
>>> phone hold time contractual obligation; just disconnect the phone line
>>> before 20 seconds have elapsed.
>>>
>>> And our government is none the wiser:
>>>
>>> http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/aca/
>>> Office of Competitive Sourcing
>>> The Office of Competitive Sourcing conducts competitive sourcing
>>> acquisitions on those commercial activities identified by the
>>> agency for study. Our rigorous and disciplined approach considers
>>> all stakeholders, what services to provide, and the safety and
>>> security of the National Airspace System (NAS).
>>>
>>> Through innovative competitive sourcing solutions the Office of
>>> Competitive Sourcing ensures the FAA's delivery of efficient and
>>> effective services to end-users. The office carries out these
>>> activities under the guidelines of OMB Circular A-76 and the FAA's
>>> Acquisition Management System (AMS).
>>>
>>> AFSS A-76 Competition
>>>
>>> And If you like the way large corporations serve the public, you're
>>> going to love privatized ATC. :-(
>>>
>>>
>>>>but if you can get on here to complain, then you can also get here:
>>>>http://www.afss.com/feedback/
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you for the link. However, considering that it is the FSS
>>> contractor who will see your complaint, not an organization with
>>> oversight responsibilities like the FAA nor AOPA, it might be better
>>> directed here:
>>>
>>> If you use FSS services, tell us about it by taking our survey on
>>> AOPA Online:
>>> http://surveys.aopa.org/cgi-bin/qwebcorporate.cgi?idx=SP46SS
>>>
>>>
>>> LOCKHEED MARTIN FLIGHT SERVICE WEB SITE GOES LIVE
>>> Are you put on hold for several minutes when you call
>>> 800/WX-BRIEF? You shouldn't be. Are you getting detailed security
>>> and weather briefings when you call? You should be. That's part of
>>> Lockheed Martin's promise to pilots while it is modernizing the
>>> FSS system, which it took over from the FAA on October 4 last
>>> year. If those promises aren't being kept, you now have a way
>>> to report service difficulties to Lockheed Martin--through its new
>>> Web site ( http://www.afss.com ). The site provides pilots with a
>>> means to report any difficulties they experience with flight
>>> service, along with updates on the progress of the modernization,
>>> known as FS21, and information for flight planning. "From the
>>> beginning, AOPA demanded performance standards to hold Lockheed
>>> Martin accountable for the commitments they made to serve pilots,"
>>> said Melissa Rudinger, AOPA vice president of regulatory affairs.
>>> "We want to make sure the modernization is done right, and this
>>> Web site allows pilots to report what services are and aren't
>>> working for them." See AOPA Online
>>> ( http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2006/060623afss.html ).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> NEXT FOR LOCKHEED, THE NATIONAL AIRSPACE SYSTEM?
>>> (http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/667-full.html#192588)
>>> If Lockheed Martin proves successful with the AFSS transition,
>>> will the airspace system be next? The company recently teamed up
>>> with Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University to create the "Airport
>>> of the Future (http://erau.edu/research/erau_research_park.html),"
>>> a technology test bed at Daytona Beach International Airport. This
>>> "teaching airport" will demonstrate how to provide more
>>> comprehensive data to air traffic controllers, airport operators,
>>> security officials and airline dispatchers. "We believe that a
>>> strong transportation infrastructure is critical to our nation's
>>> economic well-being and our citizens' way of life," Judy Marks,
>>> president of Lockheed Martin Transportation and Security
>>> Solutions, said last week
>>>
>>> (http://sev.prnewswire.com/aerospace-defense/20060623/DCF04323062006-1.html)
>>> at a briefing of the National Press Club in Washington, D.C.
>>> http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/667-full.html#192588
>>
>>
>

[Jose]

> Called Lockheed Martin FSS this AM for my flight briefing. Spent 20 minutes
> in the "we are experiencing high call volume" queue waiting for a live
> briefer to take my call.

I've had that experience trying to close a flight plan. In the interim,
they started to look for me.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[[email protected]]

On Apr 30, 10:48 am, "Peter R." > wrote:
> Called Lockheed Martin FSS this AM for my flight briefing. Spent 20 minutes
> in the "we are experiencing high call volume" queue waiting for a live
> briefer to take my call.
>
> When one finally did, he was servicing my upstate NY state flight from
> Phoenix, Az. Nice enough briefer but so much for the local knowledge.
>
> Wasn't there a promise by Lockheed Martin that wait times would be one minute
> or less? In the four years I have been commuting by aircraft the longest I
> previously waited for a Buffalo FSS briefer was five minutes.
>
> --
> Peter

At least you got to keep your shoes on. I feel your pain..JG

[Peter R.]

On 4/30/2007 12:53:16 PM, "Matt Barrow" wrote:

> Yeah, when I was in Montrose, the nearest briefer was 90 ,iles away across
> a mountain range.
>
> We should have one in every town like when the phone operator was in every
> town and she could even recommend a good restuarant.

With the unique weather characteristics of the Colorado Rockies, I suspect
you were probably more confident in that briefer's weather analysis for your
area than had you received one from a briefer in Florida.

> Yes. Was your last call the rule, or an exception.

No idea. It was the beginning of my personal experienced trend, however, as
the previous call I made to FSS last week resulted in a five minute wait in
the queue.

> Just wait until volume doubles and triples over the next few years - you
> might have to wait that long EVERY time.

Even twenty minutes is too long to expect someone to routinely wait for a
briefing. If that does become the norm, I foresee the number of pilots opting
to fly without a briefing, and the related weather and airspace incidents,
increasing.


--
Peter

[Mxsmanic]

Peter R. writes:

> Called Lockheed Martin FSS this AM for my flight briefing. Spent 20 minutes
> in the "we are experiencing high call volume" queue waiting for a live
> briefer to take my call.
>
> When one finally did, he was servicing my upstate NY state flight from
> Phoenix, Az. Nice enough briefer but so much for the local knowledge.
>
> Wasn't there a promise by Lockheed Martin that wait times would be one minute
> or less?

Is there any other company competing with Lockheed Martin for this business?
If not, you can toss any promises in the wastebasket. For profit-making
corporations, the ideal is to provide the worst possible quality and service
at the highest possible price. And when a corporation has a monopoly, this is
exactly what happens.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

What is a "security briefing"?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
>
> Called Lockheed Martin FSS this AM for my flight briefing.
>

Why? No computer access?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Peter R. writes:
>
>> Called Lockheed Martin FSS this AM for my flight briefing. Spent 20
>> minutes in the "we are experiencing high call volume" queue waiting
>> for a live briefer to take my call.
>>
>> When one finally did, he was servicing my upstate NY state flight
>> from Phoenix, Az. Nice enough briefer but so much for the local
>> knowledge.
>>
>> Wasn't there a promise by Lockheed Martin that wait times would be
>> one minute or less?
>
> Is there any other company competing with Lockheed Martin for this
> business? If not, you can toss any promises in the wastebasket. For
> profit-making corporations, the ideal is to provide the worst possible
> quality and service at the highest possible price. And when a
> corporation has a monopoly, this is exactly what happens.

Well, you have the market cornered on idiocy!

Bertie

[Rip]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> What is a "security briefing"?
>
Since you are not a pilot, you have no "need to know".

Rip

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> What is a "security briefing"?
>

what's it to you, you don't fly.

bertie

[Mxsmanic]

Rip writes:

> Since you are not a pilot, you have no "need to know".

Since you don't know, your post serves no purpose.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Nathan Young]

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:48:46 -0400, "Peter R." >
wrote:

>Called Lockheed Martin FSS this AM for my flight briefing. Spent 20 minutes
>in the "we are experiencing high call volume" queue waiting for a live
>briefer to take my call.
>
>When one finally did, he was servicing my upstate NY state flight from
>Phoenix, Az. Nice enough briefer but so much for the local knowledge.
>
>Wasn't there a promise by Lockheed Martin that wait times would be one minute
>or less? In the four years I have been commuting by aircraft the longest I
>previously waited for a Buffalo FSS briefer was five minutes.

I am yet to wait over a minute, this is in the Chicago area which is
serviced by the Kankakee FSS station.

What were weather conditions when you called?

-Nathan

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "PR" == Peter R > writes:
PR> If that does become the norm, I foresee
PR> the number of pilots opting to fly without a briefing, and the
PR> related weather and airspace incidents, increasing.

Then you can get busted on VIP TFRs like I was last year.
--
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be
unhappy.
Groucho Marx

[d.g.s.]

On 4/30/2007 6:04 PM Mxsmanic jumped down, turned around, and wrote:

> Rip writes:
>
>> Since you are not a pilot, you have no "need to know".
>
> Since you don't know, your post serves no purpose.

So you *do* stoop to personal attacks.

Hypocrite. Whiner.
--
dgs

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Rip writes:
>
>> Since you are not a pilot, you have no "need to know".
>
> Since you don't know, your post serves no purpose.
>

Whoo hoo. Couple thousand more and he'll match your standard!

Bertie

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> On 4/30/2007 12:53:16 PM, "Matt Barrow" wrote:
>
>> Yeah, when I was in Montrose, the nearest briefer was 90 ,iles away
>> across
>> a mountain range.
>>
>> We should have one in every town like when the phone operator was in
>> every
>> town and she could even recommend a good restuarant.
>
> With the unique weather characteristics of the Colorado Rockies, I suspect
> you were probably more confident in that briefer's weather analysis for
> your
> area than had you received one from a briefer in Florida.
>
I have virtually ZERO confidence in weather forecasts. Anywhere.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Rip" > wrote in message
t...
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> What is a "security briefing"?
>>
> Since you are not a pilot, you have no "need to know".
>
You could tell him, but then you'd have to kill him.

[Peter R.]

On 4/30/2007 11:08:44 PM, "Matt Barrow" wrote:

> I have virtually ZERO confidence in weather forecasts. Anywhere.

I was discussing weather analyses, not weather forecasts.

--
Peter

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> On 4/30/2007 11:08:44 PM, "Matt Barrow" wrote:
>
>> I have virtually ZERO confidence in weather forecasts. Anywhere.
>
> I was discussing weather analyses, not weather forecasts.
>
And your "local" boy provides what?, that the fer'einer couldn't?

[Peter R.]

On 4/30/2007 9:08:21 PM, Nathan Young wrote:

> What were weather conditions when you called?

Directly overhead my airport was CAVU. To the east was a line of t-storms and
farther out to the west (Ohio, Indiana, Iowa) also t-storms.

With the closure of the Buffalo FSS last month I believe our calls initially
route to Cleveland with overflow going to Leesburg, Virginia. Apparently
overflows from there go west, as demonstrated by the fact I ultimately talked
to a Phoenix, Az, briefer.

--
Peter

[Peter R.]

On 5/1/2007 9:20:35 AM, "Matt Barrow" wrote:

> And your "local" boy provides what?, that the fer'einer couldn't?

Provided local insight based on his twenty to thirty years of doing his job
in one of many unique "micro-climates" of being downwind of the US Great
Lakes, which is a lot more experience than I have reading current conditions
and prognostics.

Perhaps you are an educated and skilled meteorologist in addition to being a
successful real estate mogul and newsgroup star, but in my case I know I
would feel more confident talking to a briefer familiar with local Colorado
Rocky Mountain-induced weather more so than a briefer in (Florida, Ohio,
Maine, or anywhere else but there) who can only read the text from the
current and forecast conditions.




--
Peter

[Peter R.]

On 4/30/2007 9:31:14 PM, Bob Fry wrote:

>>>>>> "PR" == Peter R > writes:
> PR> If that does become the norm, I foresee
> PR> the number of pilots opting to fly without a briefing, and the
> PR> related weather and airspace incidents, increasing.
>
> Then you can get busted on VIP TFRs like I was last year.

Which is why I included the speculation that weather and airspace incidents
might rise if hold times increase.

--
Peter

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 1 May 2007 09:39:18 -0400, "Peter R." >
wrote in >:

>I know I
>would feel more confident talking to a briefer familiar with local Colorado
>Rocky Mountain-induced weather more so than a briefer in (Florida, Ohio,
>Maine, or anywhere else but there) who can only read the text from the
>current and forecast conditions.

Did you mention that in your complaints to:

http://www.afss.com/feedback/
http://surveys.aopa.org/cgi-bin/qwebcorporate.cgi?idx=SP46SS

[Blanche]

Over weekend in Kansas.
Briefer in Maine.
Wasted both our times.

[Nathan Young]

On Tue, 1 May 2007 09:30:02 -0400, "Peter R." >
wrote:

>On 4/30/2007 9:08:21 PM, Nathan Young wrote:
>
>> What were weather conditions when you called?
>
>Directly overhead my airport was CAVU. To the east was a line of t-storms and
>farther out to the west (Ohio, Indiana, Iowa) also t-storms.
>
>With the closure of the Buffalo FSS last month I believe our calls initially
>route to Cleveland with overflow going to Leesburg, Virginia. Apparently
>overflows from there go west, as demonstrated by the fact I ultimately talked
>to a Phoenix, Az, briefer.

What a bummer. Hopefully this is a one time occurence, and you will
not have to wait for a briefer each time the weather is crap.

You could always get a cell phone with a Chicago area code, which
should direct you to the Kankakee FSS. Like I said, they always seem
to pick up immediately. :-)

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Nomen Nescio > wrote in
:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: Mxsmanic >
>
>>Rip writes:
>>
>>> Since you are not a pilot, you have no "need to know".
>>
>>Since you don't know, your post serves no purpose.
>
> No!
> He knows......YOU DON'T KNOW.
>
> You do realize that REAL pilots ( US) have certain codes, passwords
> and information that they are not supposed to divulge to the
> non flying public . Don't you?
> You're a potential threat to Homeland Security.
>
> We're not going to tell you the "secret handshake", either.
>

What, the one that gets you a free Slurpie at 7-11? NEVER!



Bertie

[Peter R.]

On 5/1/2007 11:08:18 AM, Larry Dighera wrote:

> Did you mention that in your complaints to:

> http://www.afss.com/feedback/
> http://surveys.aopa.org/cgi-bin/qwebcorporate.cgi?idx=SP46SS

I did in the AOPA survey but I have yet to file a feedback with the AFSS link
you provided. Thanks for those, BTW.

--
Peter

[Peter R.]

On 5/1/2007 11:08:18 AM, Larry Dighera wrote:

> Did you mention that in your complaints to:
>
> http://www.afss.com/feedback/

Attempting to log into this link (which I have already created a user ID a
few months ago) resulted in this:

Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e23'
[Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver]Cursor operation conflict
C:\INETPUB\WWWROOT\WWW.AFSS.COM\MEMBER\../include/logon_form.inc, line 54

Nice...

--
Peter

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 1 May 2007 15:04:50 -0400, "Peter R." >
wrote in >:

>On 5/1/2007 11:08:18 AM, Larry Dighera wrote:
>
>> Did you mention that in your complaints to:
>>
>> http://www.afss.com/feedback/
>
>Attempting to log into this link (which I have already created a user ID a
>few months ago) resulted in this:
>
>Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e23'
>[Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver]Cursor operation conflict
>C:\INETPUB\WWWROOT\WWW.AFSS.COM\MEMBER\../include/logon_form.inc, line 54
>
>Nice...

That's one way for LocMart to assert that there are no user
complaints.

I tried to find a link to contact the webmaster, but was unsuccessful,
however there are lots of folks to talk to here:
http://www.afss.com/contact/?sa=esa

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 1 May 2007 15:04:50 -0400, "Peter R." >
wrote in >:

>On 5/1/2007 11:08:18 AM, Larry Dighera wrote:
>
>> Did you mention that in your complaints to:
>>
>> http://www.afss.com/feedback/
>
>Attempting to log into this link (which I have already created a user ID a
>few months ago) resulted in this:
>
>Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e23'
>[Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver]Cursor operation conflict
>C:\INETPUB\WWWROOT\WWW.AFSS.COM\MEMBER\../include/logon_form.inc, line 54
>
>Nice...

I don't know if this information is out of date, but it might help:

1999 NEW YORK AIFSS’S PILOT’S SURVEY:
http://www.faa.gov/ats/afss/newyork/PICSurvey.htm

http://www.faa.gov/ats/afss/newyork/default.htm
New York Automated International Flight Service Station
FROM THE AIR TRAFFIC MANAGER
I look forward to receiving your input on our services, both positive
and negative. Please feel free to contact me at any time, either by
e-mail or by telephone at (516) 471-7181.
Ronald X. Ruggeri, Air Traffic Manager

[Kyle Boatright]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Called Lockheed Martin FSS this AM for my flight briefing. Spent 20
> minutes
> in the "we are experiencing high call volume" queue waiting for a live
> briefer to take my call.
>
> When one finally did, he was servicing my upstate NY state flight from
> Phoenix, Az. Nice enough briefer but so much for the local knowledge.
>
> Wasn't there a promise by Lockheed Martin that wait times would be one
> minute
> or less? In the four years I have been commuting by aircraft the longest I
> previously waited for a Buffalo FSS briefer was five minutes.
>
> --
> Peter

I waited 10 minutes for a briefer this afternoon and eventually spoke with
someone in Indiana (I'm in Atlanta). The amazing thing is that the weather
in the Southeast was great today, so 90% of pilot briefings should have been
short and simple - Great VFR, no TFR's, enjoy the ride. Logically, with a
day like today, you wouldn't think calls would need to be transferred
outside the region.

The guy I spoke with at the FSS indicated that calls from West of the
Mississippi are not supposed to be routed to FSS'es east of the Mississippi,
but every 3rd or 4th call he has been taking is from West of the
Mississippi, which really bogs things down here in the East.

If waits are going to be this long and longer, are there any other viable
options to A) Get a briefing and B) Have a record of the briefing? I can
satisfy "A" through the internet, but I'm not sure an online brief would
stand up very well in my defense if I busted a pop-up TFR or something,
especially since (presumably) there might not be a viable record of my
online brief.

KB

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> I waited 10 minutes for a briefer this afternoon and eventually spoke with
> someone in Indiana (I'm in Atlanta). The amazing thing is that the weather
> in the Southeast was great today, so 90% of pilot briefings should have
> been short and simple - Great VFR, no TFR's, enjoy the ride. Logically,
> with a day like today, you wouldn't think calls would need to be
> transferred outside the region.
>
> The guy I spoke with at the FSS indicated that calls from West of the
> Mississippi are not supposed to be routed to FSS'es east of the
> Mississippi, but every 3rd or 4th call he has been taking is from West of
> the Mississippi, which really bogs things down here in the East.
>
> If waits are going to be this long and longer, are there any other viable
> options to A) Get a briefing and B) Have a record of the briefing? I can
> satisfy "A" through the internet, but I'm not sure an online brief would
> stand up very well in my defense if I busted a pop-up TFR or something,
> especially since (presumably) there might not be a viable record of my
> online brief.
>

Why do you CALL for a briefing at all?

[Bob Noel]

In article et>,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> Why do you CALL for a briefing at all?

I, for one, call because I can do it literally minutes before engine start.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Peter R.]

On 5/1/2007 10:06:23 PM, "Kyle Boatright" wrote:

> If waits are going to be this long and longer, are there any other viable
> options to A) Get a briefing and B) Have a record of the briefing? I can
> satisfy "A" through the internet, but I'm not sure an online brief would
> stand up very well in my defense if I busted a pop-up TFR or something,
> especially since (presumably) there might not be a viable record of my
> online brief.

DUATs.com or DUAT.com are the two other "official" flight briefing choices
that will record your session, from what I understand.

--
Peter

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
. ..
>

> I waited 10 minutes for a briefer this afternoon and eventually spoke with
> someone in Indiana (I'm in Atlanta). The amazing thing is that the weather
> in the Southeast was great today, so 90% of pilot briefings should have
> been short and simple - Great VFR, no TFR's, enjoy the ride. Logically,
> with a day like today, you wouldn't think calls would need to be
> transferred outside the region.
>
> The guy I spoke with at the FSS indicated that calls from West of the
> Mississippi are not supposed to be routed to FSS'es east of the
> Mississippi, but every 3rd or 4th call he has been taking is from West of
> the Mississippi, which really bogs things down here in the East.
>
> If waits are going to be this long and longer, are there any other viable
> options to A) Get a briefing and B) Have a record of the briefing? I can
> satisfy "A" through the internet, but I'm not sure an online brief would
> stand up very well in my defense if I busted a pop-up TFR or something,
> especially since (presumably) there might not be a viable record of my
> online brief.

I don't know if it would hold up, but a detailed and time stamped print out
of the data should suffice (or maybe not).

WheaterWorx, Jeppesen and WSI have briefing services. Even better, they
have to establish a reputation for timeliness and accuracy that the FSS's
take for granted.

Remember: Ya' gets whats ya' pays for.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article et>,
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:
>
>> Why do you CALL for a briefing at all?
>
> I, for one, call because I can do it literally minutes before engine
> start.

WiFi.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> On 5/1/2007 10:06:23 PM, "Kyle Boatright" wrote:
>
>> If waits are going to be this long and longer, are there any other viable
>> options to A) Get a briefing and B) Have a record of the briefing? I can
>> satisfy "A" through the internet, but I'm not sure an online brief would
>> stand up very well in my defense if I busted a pop-up TFR or something,
>> especially since (presumably) there might not be a viable record of my
>> online brief.
>
> DUATs.com or DUAT.com are the two other "official" flight briefing choices
> that will record your session, from what I understand.
>
And "unnofficially" WeatherWorx, WSI and Jeppessen will too, and I believe
(??) thay will will assist you if a legal action results.
--
Matt Barrow
Performace Homes, LLC.
Colorado Springs, CO

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 01 May 2007 15:08:18 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote in >:

>On Tue, 1 May 2007 09:39:18 -0400, "Peter R." >
>wrote in >:
>
>>I know I
>>would feel more confident talking to a briefer familiar with local Colorado
>>Rocky Mountain-induced weather more so than a briefer in (Florida, Ohio,
>>Maine, or anywhere else but there) who can only read the text from the
>>current and forecast conditions.
>
>Did you mention that in your complaints to:
>
>http://www.afss.com/feedback/
>http://surveys.aopa.org/cgi-bin/qwebcorporate.cgi?idx=SP46SS


There's more AFSS contact information here:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/so/fs/key_officials/lockheed_martin_info/

Dan Courain: Director, Lockheed Martin FS21 Team:
?subject=Feedback/Comments

http://www.faa.gov/contact/
Flight Service Stations: Send comments or complaints about weather
briefings and other flight planning services provided to pilots
through the Flight Service Stations, to: .
http://www.faa.gov/contact_faa/?returnPage=2%2FWQ2O%3BJ878MCIXL%2AE%5B%24RA9B%3F% 0A&mailto=%3B%2A3%29%5CA%28%5F4%3FZL%23X%5B8WH89%2CM% 3D%2ETM%3BU%20GD19%5FAF%21%0A&subject=A5G%2D4M%2A%3A%2D%27JPIO%29%2C%27D%3AP%5CM 8J3DI1%29D04XZ1%2E%25FHB4D8%2AL%0A

http://www.lmafsshr.com/

Federal Aviation Administration
1-866-TELL-FAA (1-866-835-5322)

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 02 May 2007 02:18:29 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote in
et>:

>
>Why do you CALL for a briefing at all?

In addition to other reasons, because in the event of a TFR PD, FSS
personnel may be culpable as well as the pilot if they failed to brief
the TFR, thus mitigating pilot culpability.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 2 May 2007 06:20:27 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
> wrote in
>:

>I don't know if it would hold up, but a detailed and time stamped print out
>of the data should suffice (or maybe not).

Thanks for clearing that up. :-(

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> In addition to other reasons, because in the event of a TFR PD, FSS
> personnel may be culpable as well as the pilot if they failed to brief
> the TFR, thus mitigating pilot culpability.
>

A telephone briefing that misses a TFR would mitigate pilot culpability but
an internet briefing that misses a TFR would not mitigate pilot culpability?
Why would that be?

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Matt Barrow" > wrote:

> >> Why do you CALL for a briefing at all?
> >
> > I, for one, call because I can do it literally minutes before engine
> > start.
>
> WiFi.

$$$$ I'm not willing to spend.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 02 May 2007 22:35:31 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote in
. net>:

>
>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> In addition to other reasons, because in the event of a TFR PD, FSS
>> personnel may be culpable as well as the pilot if they failed to brief
>> the TFR, thus mitigating pilot culpability.
>>
>
>A telephone briefing that misses a TFR would mitigate pilot culpability but
>an internet briefing that misses a TFR would not mitigate pilot culpability?
>Why would that be?
>

If the pilot misses the TFR NOTAM in the DUATS briefing, s/he bears
sole blame for it. If the TFR NOTAM is omitted from either the verbal
or DUATS type of briefing, I would expect it to mitigate the pilots
culpability in the event of a PD. In my experience, it's easier for a
pilot to overlook a single NOTAM among the plethora in a DUATS
briefing, but the live briefer briefs only those NOTAMS that are
pertinent to the flight so the relevant TFRs are not buried in the
clutter of irrelevant NOTAMS.

Of course, this issue will soon be moot when LocMart phases in the
computerized voice to deliver the telephone briefings of the future.

"Speak or say 'one' for a full briefing. Speak or say 'two' for
an updated briefing. Using the touch-tone pad enter the
departure airport identifier. ...."

In the name of reduced costs, the continuing trend of automation
replacing wet-ware will continue until the accident rate starts
increasing. Wile computers are less likely to make errors than
people, it is the people who program the computers, so that expected
increase in accuracy will likely not be achieved.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> If the pilot misses the TFR NOTAM in the DUATS briefing, s/he bears
> sole blame for it.
>

If the pilot misses the TFR NOTAM in the telephone briefing, s/he bears sole
blame for it.


>
> If the TFR NOTAM is omitted from either the verbal
> or DUATS type of briefing, I would expect it to mitigate the pilots
> culpability in the event of a PD. In my experience, it's easier for a
> pilot to overlook a single NOTAM among the plethora in a DUATS
> briefing, but the live briefer briefs only those NOTAMS that are
> pertinent to the flight so the relevant TFRs are not buried in the
> clutter of irrelevant NOTAMS.
>

So the telephone briefing is preferred because it's more likely to be
incomplete?

[Jose]

> So the telephone briefing is preferred because it's more likely to be
> incomplete?

Yes.

"All available information" is the way lawyers beat their opponents to
death. That's what a machine briefing gives you - reams and reams of
stuff that doesn't matter or says the same thing, and you have to read
through it all to find the one or two bits that do matter.

With a telephone briefing, I'm dealing with a person who has been doing
this all day, and is already familiar with the situation. I get the
picture without the noise.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jose" > wrote in message
. net...
>>
>> So the telephone briefing is preferred because it's more likely to be
>> incomplete?
>>
>
> Yes.
>
> "All available information" is the way lawyers beat their opponents to
> death. That's what a machine briefing gives you - reams and reams of
> stuff that doesn't matter or says the same thing, and you have to read
> through it all to find the one or two bits that do matter.
>
> With a telephone briefing, I'm dealing with a person who has been doing
> this all day, and is already familiar with the situation. I get the
> picture without the noise.
>

It appears you've never actually used DUAT. It doesn't give you reams and
reams of stuff that doesn't matter or says the same thing that you have to
read through find the one or two bits that do matter. It allows you to
tailor the briefing to fit your needs. If you're not interested in some
information don't select it and it won't be provided. You don't have to
read through anything you don't want.

Oh, by the way, you can't actually get pictures with a telephone briefing,
but you can with DUAT.

[Jose]

> If you're not interested in some
> information don't select it and it won't be provided. You don't have to
> read through anything you don't want.

I don't know that I'm not interested in it until I read it. A telephone
briefer has already read it.

> Oh, by the way, you can't actually get pictures with a telephone briefing,
> but you can with DUAT.

I get my pictures with CIRRUS (which is, I suppose a DUATs interface),
AccuWeather, and Unisis. Other places too, depending.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jose" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> I don't know that I'm not interested in it until I read it. A telephone
> briefer has already read it.
>

But he doesn't know that you're not interested in it, he's going to read it
to you anyway.


>
> I get my pictures with CIRRUS (which is, I suppose a DUATs interface),
> AccuWeather, and Unisis. Other places too, depending.
>

One stop shopping with DTC DUAT.

[Jose]

> But he doesn't know that you're not interested in it, he's going to read it
> to you anyway.

No, that turns out not to be the case. He figures out what I am
probably interested in, and what I'm probably not interested in, and
gets it right. For example, if the weather is the same all up and down
the coast except for this and that, here and there, he will (generally)
give me the weather at a few typical stations, say it's pretty much all
the same, and then give me the exceptions.

I would have to read all the reports in order to find the exceptions.
This way I don't. He doesn't either, since he's already seen the stuff
before.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Don Poitras]

My first experience trying to get a clearance on the ground via
Lockheed today. Weather was very marginal VFR. I normally wait
to get the clearance in the air, but with 1500 broken, I would
have to fly pretty close to Fayetteville before they could hear
me and I just didn't feel comfortable puttering along that low.
Tried the GCO, but no one answered. Plane behind me on taxiway is
asking whether I'm trying GCO. "Yeah, but they're not answering.
I'll try the cell phone." He says, "Yeah, I can't get through either,
but it's always a crapshoot with GCO here." Actually, I usually
have pretty good luck with the GCO, but I've got a nice Lightspeed
headset that I can plug my phone into and WXBRIEF takes me directly
to RDU FSS. Well, it used to...

"Welcome to Lockheed Martin flight services. Please speak your
response at any time..."

"Briefer"

"What state are you departing from?"

"North Carolina"

"I think you said South Carolina. Is that correct?"

"No"

"Please speak your response at any time..."

"Briefer"

"What state are you departing from?"

"North Carolina"

"I think you said North Dakota. Is that correct?"

"No"

"Please speak...."

Finally they seem to break through my pseudo southern drawl.

"Hi. I'm Dan Corrain, the Lockheed Martin Flight Service Program
Manager. I am very aware that you are currently experiencing unacceptable
wait times..."

this message from Dan continues for about two minutes. I have no idea
whether this would get interrupted by a briefer or whether they
are so certain that I can't get an answer in that time that they
feel they may as well make me listen to an apology as Muzak...
Fifteen minutes pass.

Guy behind me: "Did you get through?"

Me: "I'm on hold"

"Me too..."

Five more minutes.

"Macon flight service"

"Um, N2325Q on the ground at Sanford, North Carolina. I'd like to pick
up my IFR clearance to Sierra Uniform Tango."

"Hold on... uh... I need to transfer..mumble mumble mumble..."

30 seconds of nothing.

Me: "Hello"

Macon: "Yeah, hold on, I'm trying to find the number for Raleigh. You
didn't do anything wrong, but they sent you to the wrong controller..."

Guy behind me: "I'm going leave VFR, can you move off the taxiway?"

Me (to the guy behind me): "Yeah, I'm still trying to get a clearance"

Macon: "Sir, I'm trying to get you that, please hold on"

Me: "I was talking to the plane behind me, he's going to leave VFR"

Macon: "Are you leaving VFR?"

Me: "Negative, I had to exit the taxi way to let the plane behind me
leave VFR".

Macon: "Ah... ok..." click.. buzzzz... dial...

"Raleigh Flight Service."

"N2325Q on the ground at Sanford...."

"Hold for your clearance..."

5 minutes later, the line goes dead. Am I going to go through that
again? No. ASOS is now saying 2000 broken. Good enough for me.

Hooray for privitization. The free market Peter Principle is in
full swing. And 45 minutes of my 400 minutes a month cell phone
time gone into the ether.

--
Don Poitras

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Don Poitras" > wrote in message
...

>
> Hooray for privitization. The free market Peter Principle is in
> full swing. And 45 minutes of my 400 minutes a month cell phone
> time gone into the ether.

You should get a government cell phone.

And call your local DMV or Post Office.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "MB" == Matt Barrow > writes:

MB> And call your local DMV or Post Office.

Why? Answering the phone is not their primary job or method of
service, but it is for LockMart FSS.

--
Too bad you can't just grab a tree by the very tip-top and bend
it clear over the ground and then let her fly, because I bet
you'd be amazed at all the stuff that comes flying out.
- Jack Handey

[J. Severyn]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> On 5/1/2007 10:06:23 PM, "Kyle Boatright" wrote:
>
>> If waits are going to be this long and longer, are there any other viable
>> options to A) Get a briefing and B) Have a record of the briefing? I can
>> satisfy "A" through the internet, but I'm not sure an online brief would
>> stand up very well in my defense if I busted a pop-up TFR or something,
>> especially since (presumably) there might not be a viable record of my
>> online brief.
>
> DUATs.com or DUAT.com are the two other "official" flight briefing choices
> that will record your session, from what I understand.
>
> --
> Peter

I use DUATs most flights. After getting the full results of the briefing, I
"save as" and change the filename to include the date before exiting the web
browser page. The .html file (mostly text) contains the date and
"transaction number" so I figure that is a fairly good proof that I got a
briefing. I much prefer a personal archive rather than counting on the
DUATS provider or the 'govment to cover my butt.

John Severyn
LVK Livermore, Ca.

[Larry Dighera]

LockMart's AFSS Feedback system is back on-line:
http://afss.com/feedback/

Call me cynical, but intentionally frustrating pilots by making them
wait interminably on hold for an FSS briefing, thus driving many of
them to DUATS, could be good business for LockMart.

It will be interesting to see just how culpable LockMart will be if
pilots are violated as a result of AFSS ineptitude:

NEW FSS IN THE OL' ADIZ (WITH POTOMAC AIRFIELD'S DAVID WARTOFSKY)
(http://www.avweb.com/alm?podcast20070514&kw=AVwebAudio)
Last week, Lockheed Martin began final implementation of its new
flight services system in the Washington area, and it didn't go
exactly according to plan. There were dropped flight plans and a
lot of frustrated pilots who suddenly found themselves dealing
with briefers who didn't understand the procedures for flying in
the restricted airspace around the capital. David Wartofsky, who
owns Potomac Airfield near Washington, tells AVweb's Russ Niles
that it was interesting for a couple of days but operations are
returning to normal, at least what passes for normal in that
airspace.

Click here (http://www.avweb.com/podcast/files/2007-05-14.mp3) to
listen.



Oh yeah, and "the check's in the mail":

FAA'S BLAKEY PROMISES QUICK FIX FOR FSS
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/867-full.html#195217)
"The top levels of both the FAA and Lockheed Martin are now
engaged and committed to fixing the significant problems pilots
are experiencing with the new flight service station (FSS)
system," AOPA said
(http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2007/070515afss.html) on
Tuesday. AOPA President Phil Boyer spent nearly an hour on the
phone with FAA Administrator Marion Blakey on Sunday, and another
hour with her and her deputy on Monday. "I have their pledge that
they will do whatever it takes to ensure pilots get the safety of
flight information that they need and deserve," he said. Problems
with the system worsened in recent weeks, as Lockheed Martin began
consolidating the old FAA flight service stations at the rate of
three a week. Computer updates were incomplete, and spring weather
brought an increase in flying. "I have great difficulty
understanding why it has taken so long for those FAA employees
responsible for the Lockheed Martin contract to address a safety
of flight issue," Boyer said. According to Lockheed Martin program
manager Dan Courain
(http://www.lmafsshr.com/msg20070510.asp), a series of software
updates that are scheduled for the next few weeks should resolve
the transition problems and "allow [workers] to focus on the
pilot's needs, rather than the system's performance."
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/867-full.html#195217










On Wed, 02 May 2007 14:02:00 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote in >:

>On Tue, 01 May 2007 15:08:18 GMT, Larry Dighera >
>wrote in >:
>
>>On Tue, 1 May 2007 09:39:18 -0400, "Peter R." >
>>wrote in >:
>>
>>>I know I
>>>would feel more confident talking to a briefer familiar with local Colorado
>>>Rocky Mountain-induced weather more so than a briefer in (Florida, Ohio,
>>>Maine, or anywhere else but there) who can only read the text from the
>>>current and forecast conditions.
>>
>>Did you mention that in your complaints to:
>>
>>http://www.afss.com/feedback/
>>http://surveys.aopa.org/cgi-bin/qwebcorporate.cgi?idx=SP46SS
>
>
>There's more AFSS contact information here:
>http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/so/fs/key_officials/lockheed_martin_info/
>
>Dan Courain: Director, Lockheed Martin FS21 Team:
?subject=Feedback/Comments
>
>http://www.faa.gov/contact/
>Flight Service Stations: Send comments or complaints about weather
>briefings and other flight planning services provided to pilots
>through the Flight Service Stations, to: .
>http://www.faa.gov/contact_faa/?returnPage=2%2FWQ2O%3BJ878MCIXL%2AE%5B%24RA9B%3F% 0A&mailto=%3B%2A3%29%5CA%28%5F4%3FZL%23X%5B8WH89%2CM% 3D%2ETM%3BU%20GD19%5FAF%21%0A&subject=A5G%2D4M%2A%3A%2D%27JPIO%29%2C%27D%3AP%5CM 8J3DI1%29D04XZ1%2E%25FHB4D8%2AL%0A
>
>http://www.lmafsshr.com/
>
>Federal Aviation Administration
>1-866-TELL-FAA (1-866-835-5322)

[Gene Seibel]

On Apr 30, 10:48 am, "Peter R." > wrote:
> Called Lockheed Martin FSS this AM for my flight briefing. Spent 20 minutes
> in the "we are experiencing high call volume" queue waiting for a live
> briefer to take my call.
>
> When one finally did, he was servicing my upstate NY state flight from
> Phoenix, Az. Nice enough briefer but so much for the local knowledge.
>
> Wasn't there a promise by Lockheed Martin that wait times would be one minute
> or less? In the four years I have been commuting by aircraft the longest I
> previously waited for a Buffalo FSS briefer was five minutes.
>
> --
> Peter

I guess everyone has different priorities. I am a VFR only pilot who
uses DUATS along with other online sources. I usually check the day
before to get a handle on trends. It was quite interesting today on
the scanner today to hear a pilot contact several sources for weather
info, each time relating his story of waiting on hold for 40 minutes
and still not getting a briefing. Then he adds that this is the first
time in seven years that he has flown VFR, as if it's some kind of a
traumatic event. I look out the window and there's not a cloud in the
sky. I check the weather and there's not a cloud in 300 miles. Do some
really need a nanny holding their hand all the time?
--
Gene Seibel
Tales of Flight - http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[Larry Dighera]

On 18 May 2007 19:32:42 -0700, Gene Seibel > wrote in
om>:

>Do some really need a nanny holding their hand all the time?

Apparently the military do. They are always supposed to be on an IFR
flight plan.

[Justin Gombos]

On 2007-05-13, Don Poitras > wrote:
>
> My first experience trying to get a clearance on the ground via
> Lockheed today. ... Tried the GCO, but no one answered. Plane behind
> me on taxiway is asking whether I'm trying GCO. "Yeah, but they're
> not answering.

I had the same issue.. tried to get ahold of Kankakee in the Chicago
area around 2am, and go no answer after making multiple attempts on
all the frequencies in the area. It's a little unnerving to fly VFR
at night w/out flight following. Is Lockheed now in charge of all
FSS's?

--
PM instructions: do a C4esar Ciph3r on my address; retain punctuation.

[Don Poitras]

Justin Gombos > wrote:
> On 2007-05-13, Don Poitras > wrote:
> >
> > My first experience trying to get a clearance on the ground via
> > Lockheed today. ... Tried the GCO, but no one answered. Plane behind
> > me on taxiway is asking whether I'm trying GCO. "Yeah, but they're
> > not answering.

> I had the same issue.. tried to get ahold of Kankakee in the Chicago
> area around 2am, and go no answer after making multiple attempts on
> all the frequencies in the area. It's a little unnerving to fly VFR
> at night w/out flight following. Is Lockheed now in charge of all
> FSS's?

Here's the transition schedule:
http://www.afss.com/transition/

AOPA was originally very happy about all this:

"And all of these enhanced services are being provided without user
fees - AOPA made sure of that," Boyer said. "It is estimated that
Lockheed's 10-year contract will actually save the government about
$2.2 billion."

Subtract .18 billion from that savings:

Lockheed Martin is looking for a 10-percent increase in the fees it's
being paid to take over flight services. According to a report from the
Department of Transportation's Office of Inspector General, the
company, which was awarded a $1.8 billion contract to assume the
function, says it's owed another $177 million, mostly because the FAA
didn't supply accurate labor cost information.

> --
> PM instructions: do a C4esar Ciph3r on my address; retain punctuation.

--
Don Poitras

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Justin Gombos" > wrote in message
news:GIr4i.18827$Qz.649@trndny09...
>
> I had the same issue.. tried to get ahold of Kankakee in the Chicago
> area around 2am, and go no answer after making multiple attempts on
> all the frequencies in the area. It's a little unnerving to fly VFR
> at night w/out flight following. Is Lockheed now in charge of all
> FSS's?
>

Why would you call Kankakee FSS for flight following?

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Don Poitras" > wrote in message
...
> Justin Gombos > wrote:
>> On 2007-05-13, Don Poitras > wrote:
>> >
>> > My first experience trying to get a clearance on the ground via
>> > Lockheed today. ... Tried the GCO, but no one answered. Plane behind
>> > me on taxiway is asking whether I'm trying GCO. "Yeah, but they're
>> > not answering.
>
>> I had the same issue.. tried to get ahold of Kankakee in the Chicago
>> area around 2am, and go no answer after making multiple attempts on
>> all the frequencies in the area. It's a little unnerving to fly VFR
>> at night w/out flight following. Is Lockheed now in charge of all
>> FSS's?
>
> Here's the transition schedule:
> http://www.afss.com/transition/
>
> AOPA was originally very happy about all this:
>
> "And all of these enhanced services are being provided without user
> fees - AOPA made sure of that," Boyer said. "It is estimated that
> Lockheed's 10-year contract will actually save the government about
> $2.2 billion."
>
> Subtract .18 billion from that savings:
>
> Lockheed Martin is looking for a 10-percent increase in the fees it's
> being paid to take over flight services. According to a report from the
> Department of Transportation's Office of Inspector General, the
> company, which was awarded a $1.8 billion contract to assume the
> function, says it's owed another $177 million, mostly because the FAA
> didn't supply accurate labor cost information.
>
And they didn't factor in retirements.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jose" > wrote in message
et...
>
> No, that turns out not to be the case. He figures out what I am probably
> interested in, and what I'm probably not interested in, and gets it right.
> For example, if the weather is the same all up and down the coast except
> for this and that, here and there, he will (generally) give me the weather
> at a few typical stations, say it's pretty much all the same, and then
> give me the exceptions.
>
> I would have to read all the reports in order to find the exceptions. This
> way I don't. He doesn't either, since he's already seen the stuff before.
>

You're lucky to have found a briefer so in tune with you spiritually that he
can sense what information you need and what you do not. Pilots that know
what information they need are better served by DUATS.

[B A R R Y]

On Sat, 26 May 2007 21:18:32 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

> Pilots that know
>what information they need are better served by DUATS.

I'm still surprised that pilots who can find Usenet and use the
Internet often wouldn't prefer DUATS or DUAT.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
B A R R Y > wrote:

> > Pilots that know
> >what information they need are better served by DUATS.
>
> I'm still surprised that pilots who can find Usenet and use the
> Internet often wouldn't prefer DUATS or DUAT.

I use four different computers at home (all my own), including my
own email server and a laptop. My home network includes wireless
as well as wired, and multiple printers. I'm considering changing my
10/100baseT switch to a 10/100/1000 switch, but probably won't since
I don't do that much internal file transfer. My phone is POTS because cell
coverage at home is inadequate.

I prefer the phone call because I can make it JUST before engine start.
Although I just the NOAA site, AOPA TFR page, and the FAA TFR page
before leaving for the airport, I still want to reduce probability of a TFR
popping up on me.

Now that I've finally got a tie-down at the aeroclub, maybe I'll get my
briefings via DUAT before pre-flight.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Todd W. Deckard]

Two weeks ago, while getting a briefing for a flight from Indiana (BAK)->
Minnesota (FCM), the briefer declared "No TFRs along your route of flight."
Fortunately, I had flown a wandering route down there a few days earlier and
was well briefed on the Blue Angels airshow in LaCrosse. I might have
flown right over it. I was getting a briefing from the farm, rotary dial
telephone, no computer. Either the software is still cumbersome (several
briefers seemed frustrated to assemble the requisite information) or the
lack of geographical knowledge at a centralized provider compromised the
quality. I logged a complaint with Lockheed Martin on their web site.

Lets be careful out there.
Todd