Anyone dissapointed with Oshgosh?

[Lou Parker]

I'm building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to
others about their planes but there were none to be found. I looked
for manufacturers of wooden kits but only Fisher had the gonads to
show their product.
If the wood kits are as good as we are led to believe, why don?t they
show us what they have to offer? I was told by my EAA adviser, that
all I would have to do is finish the plane and show up and I would win
every award given to the wooden builder. Now I know why.
Very Disappointed
Lou

[Ron Wanttaja]

On 14 Aug 2003 17:48:02 -0700, (Lou Parker) wrote:

>I'm building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to
>others about their planes but there were none to be found. I looked
>for manufacturers of wooden kits but only Fisher had the gonads to
>show their product.
>If the wood kits are as good as we are led to believe, why don?t they
>show us what they have to offer?

Cost, most likely. We had a recent post that a small booth in the
swap-meet area was about $1500, and a small display booth inside the
hangars was over $2000. I don't know how much an outdoor display spot is,
but suspect it's over two grand, as well. Add in the expense of
transporting your wares and people, finding housing for your employees,
etc.

Kit-wise, the vast majority of the wood designs are small Mini-Max class
airplanes. Not much profit on each of them. Wood kits are getting rarer;
people want a lot of prefabbed parts, and that means a lot of expensive
hand-work for a wood kit.

There still are a number of wood plans-built designs out there, but how
many sets of $65 Fly Baby plans do you have to sell to be able to afford a
booth at Oshkosh?

It's just a sad truth that Oshkosh isn't affordable for the purveyors of
the small plans-built aircraft that got EAA started. The Broadhead
Pietenpol Fly-In usually happens a week earlier than Oshkosh, and it's
located in Wisconsin just like Oshkosh is. Yet you'll see dozens of Piets
at Broadhead, compared to a couple at Airventure.

Ron Wanttaja

[Jim Vadek]

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
> On 14 Aug 2003 17:48:02 -0700, (Lou Parker) wrote:
>
> >I'm building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to
> >others about their planes but there were none to be found. I looked
> >for manufacturers of wooden kits but only Fisher had the gonads to
> >show their product.
> >If the wood kits are as good as we are led to believe, why don?t they
> >show us what they have to offer?
>
> Cost, most likely. We had a recent post that a small booth in the
> swap-meet area was about $1500, and a small display booth inside the
> hangars was over $2000. I don't know how much an outdoor display spot is,
> but suspect it's over two grand, as well. Add in the expense of
> transporting your wares and people, finding housing for your employees,
> etc.

I have been going to OSH for the last 5 years, but I get the distinct
impression that the EAA is screwing just about everyone it can screw. For
instance, airplane camping and admission for the whole week runs into the
hundreds of dollars. What do you get for it? Overcrowded shower facilities
that are usually filthy and poor bus service from the North 40. That's all.
And then they have the collection box for more money when you get on the
bus... Food prices are way out of line too. At least gas was $1.99/gallon
this year - amazing what a little competition will do.

So where does all this money go? Or am I being unrealistic. Either way,
please tell me - I sure would like to know. Or is the EAA just another
greedy commercial enterprise?

-- Jim

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:19:01 GMT, "Jim Vadek" >
wrote:

>I have been going to OSH for the last 5 years, but I get the distinct
>impression that the EAA is screwing just about everyone it can screw. For
>instance, airplane camping and admission for the whole week runs into the
>hundreds of dollars. What do you get for it? Overcrowded shower facilities
>that are usually filthy and poor bus service from the North 40. That's all.
>And then they have the collection box for more money when you get on the
>bus... Food prices are way out of line too. At least gas was $1.99/gallon
>this year - amazing what a little competition will do.
>
>So where does all this money go? Or am I being unrealistic. Either way,
>please tell me - I sure would like to know. Or is the EAA just another
>greedy commercial enterprise?

I think it's just a reflection of higher costs, especially in fuel,
insurance, and security. It's not just Oshkosh, we've seen the same
complaints here about SnF and Arlington, and the situation is the same for
the large non-aviation events as well. The bathrooms smell bad at Safeco
Field, too....

Ron Wanttaja

[Ed Wischmeyer]

> I'm building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to
> others about their planes but there were none to be found.

Well... the Grand Champion plans built airplane this year was a (wood)
GP-4 built by Bernie Griffin. In the ultralight area, they were working
on the wood wings of something or other, and there were a number of all
wood planes there. There was a workshop devoted to woodworking, I
believe. I saw at least two Falcos, one of them Reserve Grand Champion
from two or three years ago, and there were lots of planes that had wood
wings to go with their steel tube fuselages in the aerobatics area. Not
to mention the antiques that had wood wings.

Ed Wischmeyer

[BD5ER]

>It's just a sad truth that Oshkosh isn't affordable for the purveyors of
>the small plans-built aircraft that got EAA started. The Broadhead
>Pietenpol Fly-In usually happens a week earlier than Oshkosh, and it's
>located in Wisconsin just like Oshkosh is

This sounds more like what I want from a homebuilder flyin. Maybe if they
don't mind some "outsiders" this little get together could be promoted to
others building planes from plans or very basic kits. I don't see anything
wrong with some Piets and Tailwinds in the same gathering and maybe the Piet
owners wouldn't mind a little diversity.

I have no need of, or desire to put up with, all of the non aviatiion comercial
BS that has infested Oshkosh and don't plan to return until the ballance shifts
back to the HOMEBUILDER.

This year was my best Oshkosh experience in a long time. I stayed at home,
took the time and money I would normally have spent in Wisconsin, and worked on
my plane. Got a LOT done. All my brother got was rained on......

[RobertR237]

In article >, Ed Wischmeyer
> writes:

>
>> I have been going to OSH for the last 5 years, but I get the distinct
>> impression that the EAA is screwing just about everyone it can screw. For
>> instance, airplane camping and admission for the whole week runs into the
>> hundreds of dollars. What do you get for it?
>>
>> So where does all this money go? Or am I being unrealistic. Either way,
>> please tell me - I sure would like to know. Or is the EAA just another
>> greedy commercial enterprise?
>
>First, EAA is a 501(c)3 corporation, i.e., charitable, tax exempt.
>
>Where did your money go? Some of it goes to keep the dues down and to
>run an organization that can, on the same day, attract and impress the
>Secretary of Transportation, the Administrator of the FAA, and the Chair
>of the NTSB, not to mention a couple of senators and representatives --
>and to help protect your freedoms to fly by working with the regulators,
>not just the Congress. Then there's the free airshow, free workshops
>(which include free material to practice on), the free forums, the free
>portapotties, the free onsite health care, free delivery from town of
>prescription medicines, and the most comprehensive set of exhibitors to
>visit with, plus the work during the rest of the year to get Sport
>Pilot through so lots more people can fly, the work on making aviation
>gasoline available after tetraethyl lead goes away because of economic
>issues. Bear in mind that the facility only does two events per year
>(it's rented out to Ducks Unlimited for their annual shebang), so there
>are expenses that cannot be amortized year around.
>
>Other folks have compared prices to "comparable" events with results
>favorable to the EAA.
>
>Best advice? Get plugged in, get a volunteer job. It's lots more fun
>that way.
>
>Ed Wischmeyer, volunteer for 9 years

Well Said Ed.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[StellaStar]

>Food prices are way out of line too.

Ha ha! I just went to a state fair that smelled worse than OSH and a funnel
cake's five dollars, onion rings $4. Bitching about Fair Food is like grousing
about these young kids and their rock music. Just marks ya as an old crank.
Pack a sandwich.

[Scott]

Huh? I didn't see a single money box on any of the busses I took this
year...The shower facilities were just as crowded 28 years ago when I
started going to Oshkosh. I know it sounds expensive, but have you ever
gone to Disney for a whole week? I can almost guarantee Disney for a
week would be more expensive.

Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParasolAirplanes
Building RV-4
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die!

Jim Vadek wrote:
>
> "Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 14 Aug 2003 17:48:02 -0700, (Lou Parker) wrote:
> >
> > >I'm building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to
> > >others about their planes but there were none to be found. I looked
> > >for manufacturers of wooden kits but only Fisher had the gonads to
> > >show their product.
> > >If the wood kits are as good as we are led to believe, why don?t they
> > >show us what they have to offer?
> >
> > Cost, most likely. We had a recent post that a small booth in the
> > swap-meet area was about $1500, and a small display booth inside the
> > hangars was over $2000. I don't know how much an outdoor display spot is,
> > but suspect it's over two grand, as well. Add in the expense of
> > transporting your wares and people, finding housing for your employees,
> > etc.
>
> I have been going to OSH for the last 5 years, but I get the distinct
> impression that the EAA is screwing just about everyone it can screw. For
> instance, airplane camping and admission for the whole week runs into the
> hundreds of dollars. What do you get for it? Overcrowded shower facilities
> that are usually filthy and poor bus service from the North 40. That's all.
> And then they have the collection box for more money when you get on the
> bus... Food prices are way out of line too. At least gas was $1.99/gallon
> this year - amazing what a little competition will do.
>
> So where does all this money go? Or am I being unrealistic. Either way,
> please tell me - I sure would like to know. Or is the EAA just another
> greedy commercial enterprise?
>
> -- Jim

--

Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParasolAirplanes
Building RV-4
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die!

[Morgans]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ed Wischmeyer" > wrote in message
...
> > > I'm building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to
> > > others about their planes but there were none to be found.
> >
> > Well... the Grand Champion plans built airplane this year was a (wood)
> > GP-4 built by Bernie Griffin.
>
> Was that the red one that was on the Sport Aviation cover? Had a brief
chat with
> him. I don't understand why the original poster could find any. All
you have to do
> is cruise the airplane parking area (hint, don't forget to look in the
showplane camping
> area) until you come up on an owner. They're usually glad to talk to
you. I remember
> spending an entire afternoon talking to Jakie Yoder about his GP-4.
*********************************************
Yes, I agree that their were wood airplanes to see, but I also see one part
of his complaint.

I have (in past years) wanted very much to talk to the owners of a specific
few aircraft, but no matter when I went by their planes, they were never
there.

I would suggest that on the cards that everyone hangs on their props, there
be a space that would say something like "times to talk to the owner", and
ask that everyone put at least one time per day that they would be willing
to be at their plane, to answer questions. I know not everyone would go for
it, but it would be nice for those that would.
--
Jim in NC--

[pittss1c]

It is easy to find out where the money comes from: EAA publishes their
income in the magazine every year :)

You will see the clearly don't make much money from oshkosh. (last time I
looked, I think it was under 2 mil)

Anyone want to buy a bridge?

Mike

"Jim Vadek" > wrote in message
news:txW_a.146722$Ho3.17615@sccrnsc03...
>
> "Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 14 Aug 2003 17:48:02 -0700, (Lou Parker) wrote:
> >
> > >I'm building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to
> > >others about their planes but there were none to be found. I looked
> > >for manufacturers of wooden kits but only Fisher had the gonads to
> > >show their product.
> > >If the wood kits are as good as we are led to believe, why don?t they
> > >show us what they have to offer?
> >
> > Cost, most likely. We had a recent post that a small booth in the
> > swap-meet area was about $1500, and a small display booth inside the
> > hangars was over $2000. I don't know how much an outdoor display spot
is,
> > but suspect it's over two grand, as well. Add in the expense of
> > transporting your wares and people, finding housing for your employees,
> > etc.
>
> I have been going to OSH for the last 5 years, but I get the distinct
> impression that the EAA is screwing just about everyone it can screw. For
> instance, airplane camping and admission for the whole week runs into the
> hundreds of dollars. What do you get for it? Overcrowded shower facilities
> that are usually filthy and poor bus service from the North 40. That's
all.
> And then they have the collection box for more money when you get on the
> bus... Food prices are way out of line too. At least gas was $1.99/gallon
> this year - amazing what a little competition will do.
>
> So where does all this money go? Or am I being unrealistic. Either way,
> please tell me - I sure would like to know. Or is the EAA just another
> greedy commercial enterprise?
>
> -- Jim
>
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

"pittss1c" > wrote in message ...
> It is easy to find out where the money comes from: EAA publishes their
> income in the magazine every year :)
>
> You will see the clearly don't make much money from oshkosh. (last time I
> looked, I think it was under 2 mil)
>
I believe that is right. It's split across the EAA proper and the foundation, but if
I recall, the EAA a few years ago was making about a million on a five million gross.
The shows a big deal, but it's just a part of the EAA budget.

[RobertR237]

In article >, "Morgans"
> writes:

>*********************************************
>Yes, I agree that their were wood airplanes to see, but I also see one part
>of his complaint.
>
>I have (in past years) wanted very much to talk to the owners of a specific
>few aircraft, but no matter when I went by their planes, they were never
>there.
>
>I would suggest that on the cards that everyone hangs on their props, there
>be a space that would say something like "times to talk to the owner", and
>ask that everyone put at least one time per day that they would be willing
>to be at their plane, to answer questions. I know not everyone would go for
>it, but it would be nice for those that would.
>--
>Jim in NC--
>
>

Good idea Jim, I hope that this suggestion will be noted by the appropriate
people with EAA. If not, why not send it into them and possibly it can be done
by next year.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[pac plyer]

> I would suggest that on the cards that everyone hangs on their props, there
> be a space that would say something like "times to talk to the owner", and
> ask that everyone put at least one time per day that they would be willing
> to be at their plane, to answer questions. I know not everyone would go for
> it, but it would be nice for those that would.

Dear Airshow Grouchies:
How to have a good time and not spend too much money:
Just leave a note on the a/c. If the guy has any voice left after Osh
he'll give you a collect call and talk all day to you. Worked for me.
Agreed it's better in person.

My last Osh was in 97', and had a grand time. Gunna try to go next
year if we can get our old Appache/Aztec back up flying again. The
only way to fly is to haul a mo-ped or scooter. This way you can be
the first one to the showers in the morning (late...full? no-prob)
scoot over to the next trailer, or the next. (bring a bike chain and
lock dummy; for the fence.) Then putter over to the Wal-Mart or
low-cost joint for cheap campsite cooking supplies (good to have a
basket and license plate on that sucker.)

So after you land, get the wife/dog/copilot to hold up a piece of
cardboard or something with big "Row 108" lettering on it and show it
to every ground volt. marshaller you see. they will lead you by the
hand and point you to the best secret spot there is. Try to get out by
the par. taxiway. This will put you between two runway patterns.
Turn up the scanner, grab an econ beer out of the chest and enjoy your
private show. Hell, I only made it over to the side with the herd 4
out of seven days. Now's the time to start being nice to your pal
that owns a Stationair, Cherokee Six, or junk twin like ours. You
will have to take the front seat out at both ends of the trip and push
the two man-scooter up against the two front seats for C.G. Don't
forget to sputter over to Friar Tucks and pretend you are one of the
Airshow pilots. Guy was a dentist I discovered after about five
minutes of B.S. :-)

paclyer

[Morgans]

"pac plyer" wrote
> Dear Airshow Grouchies:\

No grouchies on my part. I love OSH! It was only a suggestion, so those
really into looking at the planes in showplane row could really see more of
the beauties they brought. A call afterwards just wouldn't do it.

I normally volunteer on homebuilt row at least 20 hours during the week, and
camp on the grounds, at the explorer base, and have more responsibilities
ther. I still love it. I couldn't go this year, due to having back
surgery, but I'll be there next year.
--
Jim in NC--

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:23:56 -0400, "Morgans" >
wrote:

>I would suggest that on the cards that everyone hangs on their props, there
>be a space that would say something like "times to talk to the owner", and
>ask that everyone put at least one time per day that they would be willing
>to be at their plane, to answer questions. I know not everyone would go for
>it, but it would be nice for those that would.

We had arranged a get-together for the guys on the Fly Baby mailing list,
but the owner of one of the Fly Babies on the field wasn't a member. I
stuck a note on his panel about the meeting.

He showed up...as well as two or three OTHER Fly Baby fans, who'd seen the
note....

Ron Wanttaja

[pac plyer]

"Morgans" > wrote in message >...
> "pac plyer" wrote
> > Dear Airshow Grouchies:\
>
> No grouchies on my part. I love OSH! It was only a suggestion, so those
> really into looking at the planes in showplane row could really see more of
> the beauties they brought. A call afterwards just wouldn't do it.
>
> I normally volunteer on homebuilt row at least 20 hours during the week, and
> camp on the grounds, at the explorer base, and have more responsibilities
> ther. I still love it. I couldn't go this year, due to having back
> surgery, but I'll be there next year.

You are a damn good man Jim,

Fast recovery,

pacplyer

[Daniel]

Ed Wischmeyer wrote...

> First, EAA is a 501(c)3 corporation, i.e., charitable, tax exempt.

Charitable for tax purposes. It's a nonprofit. Doesn't mean they
can't take in more money than needed, just that they cannot disperse
it as profits, i.e. they have to spend it on the EAA. The result is
that like almost all nonprofits, the EAA has evolved into an
organization focused on & dedicated to its own itself rather than its
members. If you doubt that, look at how the EAA has grown while
homebuilding has shrunk.

> Where did your money go? ...

Read their IRS-990 filings (the mag only give totals). When you see
22 employees drawing salaries in excess of $50,000 excluding officers,
you start to get a clue. The 990's for the sister organizations, SnF,
the museums, etcetera read similarly.

> Best advice? ...

Best advice if you're interested in experimental aviation would be to
skip EAA events & go to flyins instead.

Daniel

[Jerry Springer]

Daniel wrote:

> Ed Wischmeyer wrote...
>
>
>>First, EAA is a 501(c)3 corporation, i.e., charitable, tax exempt.
>
>
> Charitable for tax purposes. It's a nonprofit. Doesn't mean they
> can't take in more money than needed, just that they cannot disperse
> it as profits, i.e. they have to spend it on the EAA. The result is
> that like almost all nonprofits, the EAA has evolved into an
> organization focused on & dedicated to its own itself rather than its
> members. If you doubt that, look at how the EAA has grown while
> homebuilding has shrunk.
>
>
>>Where did your money go? ...
>
>
> Read their IRS-990 filings (the mag only give totals). When you see
> 22 employees drawing salaries in excess of $50,000 excluding officers,
> you start to get a clue. The 990's for the sister organizations, SnF,
> the museums, etcetera read similarly.
>
>
>>Best advice? ...
>
>
> Best advice if you're interested in experimental aviation would be to
> skip EAA events & go to flyins instead.
>
> Daniel

I got a letter from national saying I cannot belong to the local chapter
anymore because I don't belong to national. Screw em. I well support
other organazations from now on.

Jerry

[Scott]

Do you mean to imply that $50,000 a year is an exorbitant amount for an
employee to be paid? When new Chevy pickups cost $30,000 each for a
moderately equipped unit it isn't hard to see that $50K won't go very
far today if you want to indulge in things like flying. Are you also
implying that those employees do nothing and are getting a $50K handout
annually? Hell, I couldn't have much in the way of any hobbies on $50K
per year and we only have a small family of 3!

Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParasolAirplanes
Building RV-4
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die!

Daniel wrote:

>
> > Where did your money go? ...
>
> Read their IRS-990 filings (the mag only give totals). When you see
> 22 employees drawing salaries in excess of $50,000 excluding officers,
> you start to get a clue. The 990's for the sister organizations, SnF,
> the museums, etcetera read similarly.

[Kevin Horton]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:49:04 -0700, Kevin O'Brien wrote:

> Wood's good stuff. It's tough to beat wood for strength. Plenty of
> planes have gone over 500 MPH
> on wooden wings. (Me163, DH Vampire).

Actually, the wings on the DH Vampire were metal. "The DH-100 was of an
all metal construction apart from the cockpit section which was made from
ply and balsa wood as in the de Havilland Mosquito".

See: http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/Histories/DH-100/Vampire.htm

This doesn't detract from the rest of your treatise though. There is
nothing wrong with wood as a construction material, as long as the
aircraft can be hangared.

--
Kevin Horton
Ottawa

[Warren & Nancy]

Scott wrote:

> Huh? I didn't see a single money box on any of the busses I took this
> year...The shower facilities were just as crowded 28 years ago when I
> started going to Oshkosh. I know it sounds expensive, but have you ever
> gone to Disney for a whole week? I can almost guarantee Disney for a
> week would be more expensive.
>

I don't want to go there either!

Warren

[Scott]

Ed's a EAA weenie and his reply's on the topic are highly suspect. Take
um with a truck load of salt.

Ed Wischmeyer wrote:
> First, EAA is a 501(c)3 corporation, i.e., charitable, tax exempt.

SO!! Ever heard of of the Bakers? What's 501 status have to do with
anything. Any corporation can make people rich. The tax exempt status
can just makeum rich faster.

The EAA is fast loosing touch with its roots.

I hold my nose every year when I renew my subscription. One of these
years I'll give them up if they don't turn around and make the the
people building and flying experimental their top priority.

Scott

[RobertR237]

In article >,
(Daniel) writes:

>
>> First, EAA is a 501(c)3 corporation, i.e., charitable, tax exempt.
>
>Charitable for tax purposes. It's a nonprofit. Doesn't mean they
>can't take in more money than needed, just that they cannot disperse
>it as profits, i.e. they have to spend it on the EAA. The result is
>that like almost all nonprofits, the EAA has evolved into an
>organization focused on & dedicated to its own itself rather than its
>members. If you doubt that, look at how the EAA has grown while
>homebuilding has shrunk.
>

Where do you come up the statement that Homebuilding has shrunk? I don't see
any signs that homebuilding in general has shrunk, only that certain areas of
homebuilding have evolved. If there is a limitation in the homebuilding area
it is the fact that fewer people seem to be getting into flying.

>> Where did your money go? ...
>
>Read their IRS-990 filings (the mag only give totals). When you see
>22 employees drawing salaries in excess of $50,000 excluding officers,
>you start to get a clue. The 990's for the sister organizations, SnF,
>the museums, etcetera read similarly.
>
>> Best advice? ...
>
>Best advice if you're interested in experimental aviation would be to
>skip EAA events & go to flyins instead.
>
>Daniel

Do it then, but when your right to fly is revoked because the EAA and AOPA
didn't lobby to retain it, you can go to the local walkins.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Morgans]

"Scott" > wrote in message
...
> Do you mean to imply that $50,000 a year is an exorbitant amount for an
> employee to be paid? When new Chevy pickups cost $30,000 each for a
> moderately equipped unit it isn't hard to see that $50K won't go very
> far today if you want to indulge in things like flying. Are you also
> implying that those employees do nothing and are getting a $50K handout
> annually? Hell, I couldn't have much in the way of any hobbies on $50K
> per year and we only have a small family of 3!
>
> Scott

$50,000 isn't too much, but I do wish that I made it doing just one job, as
a teacher!
--
Jim in NC--

[BD5ER]

>Earth to "bd5er", the ratio of "non-aviation commercial BS" to
>aviation related stuff at Oshkosh is EXCEEDINGLY SMALL.

Earth to David: Can you count. Last time I attended I could walk down an
entire row in the flymart and not see a single aviatiion related booth. The
ratiio of aviation to BS HAS changed over the last 20 years. If I want all
that other BS I'll just attend the local county fair.

>Understand this, the show will NEVER return to those lazy good ol'
>days of yore when homebuilts were the biggest part of the show.

Then I may never return. Homebuilts is why I went. If that is not the main
attraction I'm not going to waste my time. Large numbers of people is not
really my "thing" but if they were there to talk HOMEBUILDING, and not plug
the isle up in front of the waterless cookware demo, than the more the better.

As for http://www.sportaviation.org/ :

He couldn't keep control of one organization and keep it on track (if that was
ever the intent) so what is there to make me think this group isn't headed down
the same track?

The only true homebuilt oriented flyins any more seem to be the little "type"
fly-ins. I'd love to look at Piets, T-18, Kr's, old Aeroncas, Swifts, ....the
list goes on. Oshkosh WAS the place to go to see all of that but now if you
want to actually talk to the owner and look under the cowl you have to fly to a
few dozen type events to do the same thing. With the "Airventure" trying to be
all things to all people it's original usefullness has been lost. When I first
went it was rare to see a plane roped off so you couldn't walk up and look
inside or crawl under the wing to look at some datail. But then we didn't have
the hoards of uneducated people ripping the planes apart due to ignorance.

If you think the "Airventure" is so great the way it is, that's fine with me.
But I either feel kind of sorry for you that you missed the "good 'ol days", or
wounder why you didn't really appreciate what we had and don't want to share
the good times with others again.

As for the cop-out catch all - "but it brings new people into, and promote,
general aviation". That IMHO opinion is NOT the job of the annual EAA fly in.
That job is yours and mine, every day of the year.

[BD5ER]

>Do it then, but when your right to fly is revoked because the EAA and AOPA
>didn't lobby to retain it, you can go to the local walkins.

That is not a job to be left to the EAA and the AOPA. That job is ours. We
should not be assisting them - THEY - should be assisting us. The next time
you overhear a discussion about those dangerous "hobby pilots" interrupt and
add some facts to the discussion. If the opportunity doesn't present it's self
bring up the subject at the lunch break gathering and spread some of our
collective wisdom around. Maybe if we take a bit more control of our own
destiny the EAA can spend more of it's time and resources on something novel -
like homebuilding.

I do as I say, but not enough. Democracy is a dangerous and repressive thing
when education is left out of the mix.

[Morgans]

"BD5ER" > wrote in message
...
> >Earth to "bd5er", the ratio of "non-aviation commercial BS" to
> >aviation related stuff at Oshkosh is EXCEEDINGLY SMALL.
>
> Earth to David: Can you count. Last time I attended I could walk down an
> entire row in the flymart and not see a single aviatiion related booth.
The
> ratiio of aviation to BS HAS changed over the last 20 years. If I want
all
> that other BS I'll just attend the local county fair.
>
> >Understand this, the show will NEVER return to those lazy good ol'
> >days of yore when homebuilts were the biggest part of the show.
>
> Then I may never return. Homebuilts is why I went. If that is not the
main
> attraction I'm not going to waste my time. Large numbers of people is not
> really my "thing" but if they were there to talk HOMEBUILDING, and not
plug
> the isle up in front of the waterless cookware demo, than the more the
better.

Because osh is so big, you can make anything out of it that you want to. If
the homebuilts are your thing, only look at the houmebuilt related things.
I'll still bet you could spend at least 3 days there, and not see all there
is to see. If warbirds are your thing, only look at the warbirds,,, and so
on.

Bottom line- go if you want, don't if you don't want - but....
Quit yer bitchin!!! You aren't going to change what is!

Think the serenity prayer.
--
Jim in NC--

[Timbo]

Not entirely sure - heard secondhand, but while the EAA is a 501(c)3,
Airventure, is a FOR PROFIT organization. Interested in seeing Airventure's
FInancial information...

Timbo


"Ed Wischmeyer" > wrote in message
...
>
> > I have been going to OSH for the last 5 years, but I get the distinct
> > impression that the EAA is screwing just about everyone it can screw.
For
> > instance, airplane camping and admission for the whole week runs into
the
> > hundreds of dollars. What do you get for it?
> >
> > So where does all this money go? Or am I being unrealistic. Either way,
> > please tell me - I sure would like to know. Or is the EAA just another
> > greedy commercial enterprise?
>
> First, EAA is a 501(c)3 corporation, i.e., charitable, tax exempt.
>
> Where did your money go? Some of it goes to keep the dues down and to
> run an organization that can, on the same day, attract and impress the
> Secretary of Transportation, the Administrator of the FAA, and the Chair
> of the NTSB, not to mention a couple of senators and representatives --
> and to help protect your freedoms to fly by working with the regulators,
> not just the Congress. Then there's the free airshow, free workshops
> (which include free material to practice on), the free forums, the free
> portapotties, the free onsite health care, free delivery from town of
> prescription medicines, and the most comprehensive set of exhibitors to
> visit with, plus the work during the rest of the year to get Sport
> Pilot through so lots more people can fly, the work on making aviation
> gasoline available after tetraethyl lead goes away because of economic
> issues. Bear in mind that the facility only does two events per year
> (it's rented out to Ducks Unlimited for their annual shebang), so there
> are expenses that cannot be amortized year around.
>
> Other folks have compared prices to "comparable" events with results
> favorable to the EAA.
>
> Best advice? Get plugged in, get a volunteer job. It's lots more fun
> that way.
>
> Ed Wischmeyer, volunteer for 9 years

[B25flyer]

>. Bear in mind that the facility only does two events per year
>> (it's rented out to Ducks Unlimited for their annual shebang), so there
>> are expenses that cannot be amortize

I saw a show on ESPN, something to do with the world lumberjack competion, and
I swear that in the background I saw exhibit building 1 and 2 and the words
Airventure EAA.

Walt

[RobertR237]

In article >,
(BD5ER) writes:

>>Earth to "bd5er", the ratio of "non-aviation commercial BS" to
>>aviation related stuff at Oshkosh is EXCEEDINGLY SMALL.
>
>Earth to David: Can you count. Last time I attended I could walk down an
>entire row in the flymart and not see a single aviatiion related booth. The
>ratiio of aviation to BS HAS changed over the last 20 years. If I want all
>that other BS I'll just attend the local county fair.
>

A lot of things have changed over the last 20 years and AirVenture is no
exception. I have attended for the last 5 years and yes, the flymart has a lot
of non-aviation related vendors. So what, I don't go to Oshkosh for the
flymart to begin with and make one quick pass to look at odds and ends of tools
and hardware. Aside from that, I don't care whats there and can't understand
why you do either. On the other hand, most of those non-aviation businesses
were making sales to someone or they wouldn't be there.

>>Understand this, the show will NEVER return to those lazy good ol'
>>days of yore when homebuilts were the biggest part of the show.
>
>Then I may never return. Homebuilts is why I went. If that is not the main
>attraction I'm not going to waste my time. Large numbers of people is not
>really my "thing" but if they were there to talk HOMEBUILDING, and not plug
>the isle up in front of the waterless cookware demo, than the more the
>better.
>

Then its your loss because obviously you are not looking in the right places.
There is plenty at Oshkosh for everyone who attends if they are willing.

>As for http://www.sportaviation.org/ :
>
>He couldn't keep control of one organization and keep it on track (if that
>was
>ever the intent) so what is there to make me think this group isn't headed
>down
>the same track?
>

It is a free world, you should start your own organization and show us how it
should be done. If you are not willing to do that where do you come off being
critical of those who are trying?

>The only true homebuilt oriented flyins any more seem to be the little "type"
>fly-ins. I'd love to look at Piets, T-18, Kr's, old Aeroncas, Swifts,
>....the list goes on. Oshkosh WAS the place to go to see all of that but now
if you
>want to actually talk to the owner and look under the cowl you have to fly to
>a
>few dozen type events to do the same thing. With the "Airventure" trying to
>be
>all things to all people it's original usefullness has been lost. When I
>first
>went it was rare to see a plane roped off so you couldn't walk up and look
>inside or crawl under the wing to look at some datail. But then we didn't
>have
>the hoards of uneducated people ripping the planes apart due to ignorance.
>

I have attended a number of smaller regional flyins over the years and I
enjoyed them very much. They did not however give me anywhere near the
opportunities to see the variety of aircraft and talk with half as many
builders. They also didn't even begin to provide the educational forums that
are available at Oshkosh.

>If you think the "Airventure" is so great the way it is, that's fine with me.
>
>But I either feel kind of sorry for you that you missed the "good 'ol days",
>or
>wounder why you didn't really appreciate what we had and don't want to share
>the good times with others again.
>

I feel sorry for you. You are either unable or unwilling to look beyond the
superficial aspects of AirVenture and look for those items which you are
interested in. AirVenture is what those who attend make it.

>As for the cop-out catch all - "but it brings new people into, and promote,
>general aviation". That IMHO opinion is NOT the job of the annual EAA fly
>in.
>That job is yours and mine, every day of the year.
>
>

Yes, it is yours and mine but it is also the EAA's and every organization that
is in aviation. Now, either deal with the change or isolate yourself in the
past.



Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[John Ousterhout]

On 14 Aug 2003 17:48:02 -0700, (Lou Parker) wrote:

>I'm building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to
>others about their planes but there were none to be found. I looked
>for manufacturers of wooden kits but only Fisher had the gonads to
>show their product.
>If the wood kits are as good as we are led to believe, why don?t they
>show us what they have to offer? I was told by my EAA adviser, that
>all I would have to do is finish the plane and show up and I would win
>every award given to the wooden builder. Now I know why.
> Very Disappointed
> Lou


I was disappointed too. There was far too much for me to see and too
many people to talk to. I wish it had lasted two weeks.

This lovely (wooden) Pietenpol was my favorite plane this year.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ousterj/oshkosh03.html

- John Ousterhout -

[Larry Smith]

"John Ousterhout" >
wrote in message ...
[...]
> This lovely (wooden) Pietenpol was my favorite plane this year.
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ousterj/oshkosh03.html
>
> - John Ousterhout -
>
>

Oh, delightful! Thanks agains and no Gator or cookie this time.

[BD5ER]

>I feel sorry for you. You are either unable or unwilling to look beyond the
>superficial aspects of AirVenture and look for those items which you are
>interested in.

Don't. I don't feel like I'm missing anything and I've managed to find other
sources of information to feed my homebuilding desires. It's just kind of sad
that Airventure isn't the airplane builders "overload" that Oshkosh was. It was
nice after a week to go home exhausted from "too many homebuilts, too little
time". The forums are still great but as for the homebuilts, sure there are
lots of them there, but without the owners around to talk to or being able to
get close you might as well look at the pretty pictures in SA.

> Now, either deal with the change or isolate yourself in the
>past.

I'm the last person to object to change - but only change for the better. I
don't think Airventure is as good as Oshkosh. One way of dealing with change
that you don't like is to let those in charge know that you don't like it - and
why. If they choose not to alter their way of doing things so be it. Let them
keep loosing money.

>>He couldn't keep control of one organization and keep it on track (if that
>>was
>>ever the intent) so what is there to make me think this group isn't headed
>>down
>>the same track?
>>
>
>It is a free world, you should start your own organization and show us how it
>should be done. If you are not willing to do that where do you come off
>being
>critical of those who are trying?

This isn't criticism. It was/is a question. If it proves to be more in line
with the old EAA I just might start supporting it. Fool me once - shame on
you. Fool me twice........

I'm going to wait and see.

[Kevin O'Brien]

In article >, David O says...
>
>The FAA database shows the owner's name as Tom Wright. After I
>published the pages last year, someone noted that the paint scheme on
>the Bellanca is very similar to the one on the P-40 at the Kalamazoo
>Air Zoo in Michigan.


Yeah, Tom Wright. He told me he actually asked for permission to paint
the plane like their P-40... think the actual owner is a woman (of the
P-40, I mean).

>Ron Wanttaja then remarked, "I actually talked to the owner [of the
>Bellanca] there. His intent was just to have something different.
>Kinda like the Cessna 140 I saw years ago with an FW-190 paint job."

Tom is a heck of a guy. He had all the usual resto photos on his Bellanca.
I could have stayed and talked to him for hours, but there's always
someone else... some other plane, some other story.

>Your news software should have an
>option to limit the lines you compose to 70 characters.

I am posting through a ****ty web interface, and it doesn't give me any
options. Time to hunt up a real news reader again. Thanks. I
tried chopping this one by hand. (*^#$^) technology.

cheers

-=K=-

Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.

[Kevin O'Brien]

In article >, Kevin Horton says...
>
>Actually, the wings on the DH Vampire were metal. "The DH-100 was of an
>all metal construction apart from the cockpit section which was made from
>ply and balsa wood as in the de Havilland Mosquito".

Boy, I hate being wrong. Thanks for the correction though. I thought it was a
wood wing, alloy fuse thing (rather like the 163) when it actually is t'other
way
round, then. With the fuse also alloy from about where the turbojet sits.

cheers

-=K=-

Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.

[Blueskies]

..
"John Ousterhout" > wrote in message
...
> On 14 Aug 2003 17:48:02 -0700, (Lou Parker) wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> This lovely (wooden) Pietenpol was my favorite plane this year.
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ousterj/oshkosh03.html
>
> - John Ousterhout -
>
>


Oh No, Woodstock it dead?

Long live Woodstock!

[Jerry Springer]

Cy Galley wrote:
> A full time job 40 hours a week for 50 weeks is only 2000 hours. At least
> that is the labor department's definition. Actually anything over 32 hours a
> week qualifies in most states for full time benefits.
>
> I think I can talk about a teacher's day and amount of work having retired
> after 39 years of service. Most teacher's days start before the children
> arrive and cannot leave until about an hour afterwards. As a math teacher I
> always had papers that I took home to grade, tests to write and work sheets
> to cover what the text book didn't. Mandatory unpaid supervision of ball
> games, compulsory attendance and dues for PTA, Open houses and
> teacher-parent conferences on my time, plus unpaid start up days. I found
> that I could not take a second job even though the salary really wasn't
> enough to support my family as the little extras necessary for my job didn't
> leave the time.
>
> I also carried a union card in the carpenters union so I could work and
> support my family when I was locked out of teaching during the summer. This
> also provided unemployment payments if the carpenters had no work. Could not
> collect as a teacher if laid off for even a reduction of staff but as a
> union carpenter I was eligible to collect unemployment during the Christmas
> break. Go figure!
>
> Also there were mandatory educational courses just to maintain current wages
> AT teacher expense. Getting an advanced degree to improve the salary was
> done at teacher expense for tuition, books living expenses and travel costs.

All tax deductible of course...
With all the holidays etc. teacher get off it all works out so don't try
to kid us about how much time you spend at work. It has been figured out
to the penny here in Oregon how much time teachers spend at work each
year and it is much less that the average worker does. don't take this
wrong teaching is a noble and necessary profession and there are some
really good teachers out there but many are very misguided on how and
what to teach now days.
>
> Daughter who is currently on active duty as a Lt Col with the USAF got all
> that paid for plus her active duty salary when she got her Engineering
> Masters from Stanford.
>
> Did either of my kids become teachers?
>
>

[RobertR237]

In article <v_M%a.168993$uu5.26937@sccrnsc04>, "Cy Galley" >
writes:

>
>Did either of my kids become teachers?
>
>

If they did...you were not a very good teacher! ;-)

Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[RobertR237]

In article >, "Ida Covey"
> writes:

>
>Jim:
>
>Most white collar workers that I know are on-the-job at least 2200 hours per
>year. (Ten holidays, three weeks of vacation.) Many work closer to 2400
>hours per year. Teaching is a fine profession, but it isn't a full time
>job.
>
>I assume that you are campaigning to have schools in session, and teachers
>employed, full time.
>
>BJC
>
>

Well now isn't that the most short sighted view I have ever heard of? Teaching
is as full time a job as I know of and that includes most white collar workers.
Yes, most teachers get a couple of months off per year but how would you like
it if your company said you must work 10 months a year, accept the lowest pay
level of any college degree required job and not get paid for those two months?
If you knew anything at all about the teaching profession, you would go wash
your mouth out with soap.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[RobertR237]

In article et>, Jerry
Springer > writes:

>
>All tax deductible of course...
>With all the holidays etc. teacher get off it all works out so don't try
>to kid us about how much time you spend at work. It has been figured out
>to the penny here in Oregon how much time teachers spend at work each
>year and it is much less that the average worker does. don't take this
>wrong teaching is a noble and necessary profession and there are some
>really good teachers out there but many are very misguided on how and
>what to teach now days.
>

Would you trade in all your benefits to become a teacher? I doubt it.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Ed Wischmeyer]

> but without the owners around to talk to...

Maybe the owners found that there were lots of fun thing to do :-)

One of the RVers with a turbonormalized engine was around his plane all
week explaining things (very gracious of him!) to one and all. Other
folks wanted to go see what was on the field, attend the forums, etc.

Two great ideas to come out of this thread:
* Promoting (and defending) GA is the business of all of us
* Post "visiting hours" on the prop card to improve communications

Ed Wischmeyer

[CW9371]

>For the past three years, the yearly increase of pay has been less than the
>increase of medical insurance that I pay. That means I make less per year.

Well I do insurance and i hate to tell you this, you will never see a pay
increase that will keep up with insurance costs. The 3 year average i have
seen on group medical plans here in wisconsin is about 12% a year rate
increase. I hate to tell you this, but i doubt you will ever see that big of a
raise.

[Morgans]

"CW9371" > wrote in message
...
> >Yes, most teachers get a couple of months off per year but how would you
like
> >it if your company said you must work 10 months a year, accept the lowest
pay
> >level of any college degree required job and not get paid for those two
> >months?
> > If you knew anything at all about the teaching profession, you would go
wash
> >your mouth out with soap.
> >
> >
> >Bob Reed
>
>
> Bob, They work 10 months and get paid for 12 months.

BZZZT.

Work 10, get our pay spread out over 12. Don't get the paid vacation, like
other jobs.

You know, it really doesn't matter if you think teachers get paid enough,
the fact is, well qualified people are less likely to go into teaching, and
more good teachers are leaving. There already is a shortage of math and
science teachers, and it IS getting worse each year.
--
Jim in NC--

[Morgans]

> PERS in this state(public employee retirement) pays 105% of the income.
> I wish I could retire and make 105% of my income.
>
\
What state is that? Sure not that way here!
--
Jim in NC--

[Jerry Springer]

Morgans wrote:
>>PERS in this state(public employee retirement) pays 105% of the income.
>>I wish I could retire and make 105% of my income.
>>
>
> \
> What state is that? Sure not that way here!

Oregon

[RobertR237]

In article >, "Morgans"
> writes:

>
>BZZZT.
>
>Work 10, get our pay spread out over 12. Don't get the paid vacation, like
>other jobs.
>
>You know, it really doesn't matter if you think teachers get paid enough,
>the fact is, well qualified people are less likely to go into teaching, and
>more good teachers are leaving. There already is a shortage of math and
>science teachers, and it IS getting worse each year.
>--
>Jim in NC--
>
>

Work 10, get paid for 10 but it is spread over 12. Other than that, I agree.

Even if I could qualify as a teacher, I wouldn't do it. You couldn't pay me
ENOUGH to put up with the crap that they have to put up with. It is no
surprise that the most qualified people shun teaching.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[RobertR237]

In article >,
(CW9371) writes:

>
>Bob, They work 10 months and get paid for 12 months. All depends on how u
>look at it. Also there benefits, alteast here in wisconsin are very very
>good
>compared to alot of companies. Also where do u get that there the lowest
>paid
>of any college degree required job.
>I know thats wrong as i started out as a reporter, you must have a college
>degree for the job and well teachers got paid more here in wisconsin for a
>starting wage. Also nurses may or may not get more then a teacher to start.
>I
>do agree that good teachers should be paid more, but how to u figure out
>what
>teachers are good is the problem. I know several of the teachers i had in
>highschool were bad teachers, but they had been teaching at the school for
>over
>30 years so they were maxed out the pay scale but they were overpaid. sooo
>what do we do...
>
>

Ok, I will give you that Wisconsin might be a bit better but the teachers I
know here in Texas are not quite as fortunate. I know a couple who both have
masters degrees and are teaching highschool. The have over 25 years on the job
and still make less on a combined salary than I made in my worst year. I know
several others who went to college, got their degrees only to have to go back
and get additional schooling to get teachers certificates and started at about
$20 a year. (Less than my daughter makes working part time as a dental
assistant.)


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Jim Weir]

And it would appear that English teachers, especially in Oregon, were
particularly hard to come by in your day.

Jim


Jerry Springer >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->All tax deductible of course...
->With all the holidays etc. teacher get off it all works out so don't try
->to kid us about how much time you spend at work. It has been figured out
->to the penny here in Oregon how much time teachers spend at work each
->year and it is much less that the average worker does. don't take this
->wrong teaching is a noble and necessary profession and there are some
->really good teachers out there but many are very misguided on how and
->what to teach now days.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Jerry Springer]

Whatever ever you say Jim, you of course must be right. After all a guy
that has grand delusions of thinking he can become governor(what a joke)
must be perfect. Sounds like a pretty good scam trying to get people to
send you a doller. Problem is sounds like no one has enough faith in you
to send you to many of them.

PS you are right it is pretty hard to find teachers that can even pass
the courses they teach, in Oregon or aywhere else.


Jim Weir wrote:
> And it would appear that English teachers, especially in Oregon, were
> particularly hard to come by in your day.
>
> Jim
>
>
> Jerry Springer >
> shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
>
> ->All tax deductible of course...
> ->With all the holidays etc. teacher get off it all works out so don't try
> ->to kid us about how much time you spend at work. It has been figured out
> ->to the penny here in Oregon how much time teachers spend at work each
> ->year and it is much less that the average worker does. don't take this
> ->wrong teaching is a noble and necessary profession and there are some
> ->really good teachers out there but many are very misguided on how and
> ->what to teach now days.
>
>
> Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
> VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
> http://www.rst-engr.com

[Morgans]

> Average teacher salary
>
> California, $54,348
> Michigan, $52,497
> Connecticut, $52,376
> Rhode Island, $51,619
> New York, $51,020
>

Nice to see you chose some of the top ones.

Jim (tounge in cheek) in NC

[Cy Galley]

Funny, I got paid only 9 months of the year. I could take my 9 months salary
spread out over 12 months if I wished, but even then if I took an
unauthorized day off, it was at the 9 month pay rate not the lower 12 month
pay rate.

Retired Illinois school teacher

"CW9371" > wrote in message
...
> >Yes, most teachers get a couple of months off per year but how would you
like
> >it if your company said you must work 10 months a year, accept the lowest
pay
> >level of any college degree required job and not get paid for those two
> >months?
> > If you knew anything at all about the teaching profession, you would go
wash
> >your mouth out with soap.
> >
> >
> >Bob Reed
>
>
> Bob, They work 10 months and get paid for 12 months. All depends on how
u
> look at it. Also there benefits, alteast here in wisconsin are very very
good
> compared to alot of companies. Also where do u get that there the lowest
paid
> of any college degree required job.
> I know thats wrong as i started out as a reporter, you must have a
college
> degree for the job and well teachers got paid more here in wisconsin for a
> starting wage. Also nurses may or may not get more then a teacher to
start. I
> do agree that good teachers should be paid more, but how to u figure out
what
> teachers are good is the problem. I know several of the teachers i had in
> highschool were bad teachers, but they had been teaching at the school for
over
> 30 years so they were maxed out the pay scale but they were overpaid.
sooo
> what do we do...
>
>
>

[Daniel]

Scott wrote ...
> Do you mean to imply that $50,000 a year is an exorbitant amount for an
> employee to be paid? ...


Hi Scott,

Depends entirely on the employee. The guy that cuts your lawn isn't
worth anywhere near that amount. The woman running your pension fund
is worth many times that.

What I am categorically stating (not implying) is that a nonprofit
organization the size of the EAA sure as hell doesn't need twenty-two
of them!

Daniel

[Corrie]

Kevin O'Brien > wrote in message >...

> The guys I see working in wood are 1) really old;

hey - I'm only 41!

>2) former RC modelers;

I built a rubber-band-powered balsa Cub recently - does that count?

> or 3) guys who already had a wood-shop hobby before taking up building.

No, just owning a 50-year-old home. Though it's not too different, I
suppose.

> Side note: I've noted that success building RC models is often a harbinger of
> success building "real" planes. Shades of "Flight of the Phoenix"!


Great movie! But I already have one expensive hobby - guitars - and
can't afford two more. So between flying model airplanes and real
ones, I have to take the real ones.

Corrie - waiting for FlyBaby plans...

[RobertR237]

In article >,
(Daniel) writes:

>
>Hi Scott,
>
>Depends entirely on the employee. The guy that cuts your lawn isn't
>worth anywhere near that amount. The woman running your pension fund
>is worth many times that.
>

BULL! I would fire the person running my pension fund in a second. Supposed
expert has lost more than my non-educated investments.

PS: I am the guy who cuts my lawn and I am worth more than that.

:-P BLAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH



Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Ron Natalie]

"pac plyer" > wrote in message om...
>
> My last Osh was in 97', and had a grand time. Gunna try to go next
> year if we can get our old Appache/Aztec back up flying again.

Wimp. My airplane has been down for two Oshkoshes and we just drive.

[Ron Natalie]

"Ida Covey" > wrote in message m...
> Jim:
>
> Most white collar workers that I know are on-the-job at least 2200 hours per
> year. (Ten holidays, three weeks of vacation.) Many work closer to 2400
> hours per year. Teaching is a fine profession, but it isn't a full time
> job.
>
> I assume that you are campaigning to have schools in session, and teachers
> employed, full time.

Bull**** Ida. Margy works from the last week in August to the third week in
July and easily spends over 2000 hours a year. While her contract only covers
8 hours for 190 days or whatever, I defy you to find a teacher that can accomplish
their job limitted to the contract hours.

[Ron Natalie]

"Jerry Springer" > wrote in message ink.net...
> All tax deductible of course...

Unfortunately not in practice. Most teachers can't take the straight business
expense deduction and the $250 exemption for classroom supplise is a pittance.

> With all the holidays etc. teacher get off it all works out so don't try
> to kid us about how much time you spend at work. It has been figured out
> to the penny here in Oregon how much time teachers spend at work each
> year and it is much less that the average worker does.

Bull****. Margy spends almost the a year round full time load inside the building
on the 190 or so days she is there. That doesn't count all the extra preparation
and work she does at home, nor the extracurricular training she does to maintain
her certification.

[CW9371]

>In article >, writes:
>
>>
>>It's very different state to state. Here in California if you start with a
>>BA
>>and an emergency credential it's an average starting salary of $34,180. The
>>average teacher here makes $54,348, and with 25 years and an MA it's in the
>>$70-80,000 range, depending on the district. Nationwide, starting salary
>>average is $30,719, average teacher salary is $44,367.
>>
>>I know a 2nd grade teacher with 30 years in the same district and a PhD.
>>She's
>>getting $85k, and is about to retire (at 54 years old) on 75%. Because
>she's
>>teaching 3rd grade she never has to grade a paper. She also goes to Japan 6
>>weeks every year and teaches English, for $2k a week.
>>
>>Average teacher salary
>>
>>California, $54,348
>>Michigan, $52,497
>>Connecticut, $52,376
>>Rhode Island, $51,619
>>New York, $51,020
>>
>>
>
>Based on your figures, there are some states that are really pulling the
>average down or there are very few holding the average up. A national
>average
>for all teachers of only 44K is pretty bad. Even then the starting salary is
>low for the education required to start. By the way, how well could you live
>in California or New York on only $50k per year? Could you afford a nice
>home?

Bob, i usually agree with u, but a 44K a year salary with benefits is pretty
good. If you think that is pretty bad you need to take a look what the average
wages are in the US. If a couple makes 88K a year I would have to say that
alot of my clients would consider them rich. Since i know a lot of people
working in factories or banks for 10 or less an hour

[Morgans]

">
> Bob, i usually agree with u, but a 44K a year salary with benefits is
pretty
> good. If you think that is pretty bad you need to take a look what the
average
> wages are in the US. If a couple makes 88K a year I would have to say
that
> alot of my clients would consider them rich. Since i know a lot of people
> working in factories or banks for 10 or less an hour

Compare it to other occupations that require a 4 year college education, and
continuing education. Not so good, when looked at that way.
--
Jim in NC--

[Daniel]

RobertR237 wrote ...
> ... I would fire the person running my pension fund in a second. Supposed
> expert has lost more than my non-educated investments.

So quit yer bitchin', cash out & manage your money yourself.

[Barnyard BOb --]

(Daniel) wrote:

>RobertR237 wrote ...
>> ... I would fire the person running my pension fund in a second. Supposed
>> expert has lost more than my non-educated investments.
>
>So quit yer bitchin', cash out & manage your money yourself.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ouch!

Barnyard BOb --

[Morgans]

"BD5ER" > wrote in message
...
> > but how to we figure out good teachers from the
> >bad ones
>
> Who cares. Pay them the same way lots of other workers get paid. By the
job -
> if it gets done right. Then let the parents pick which teacher they want
based
> on their track record.
>
=====Only if the teachers get to reject some students.

> If little Bob tests normal on the IQ test at the beginning of the year and
he
> doesn't pass the final the teacher doesn't get paid.

=====And teachers are supposed to get paid, dependent on how much effort
someone else puts into their work? Yea right. I'll bet you would go for
that.

If little Bob gets an A
> the teacher gets a bonus. And grade on the curve, based on system wide,
multi
> year, results. Yes, I used that evil, segregating, esteem bashing word -
> Grades.
>
> 'course there is the little problem of poor parents. But teachers should
also
> have the right to refuse to take on their jobs.
>
> Around here the teachers can't be fired unless they do something really
bad,
> like get convicted of a felony directly related to the school environment.
> Simple incompetence is overlooked. And the teachers all know it. Only
the
> ones with a bit of personal integrity actually perform. Just like the
rest of
> our society......

=====The percentage of poor teachers, or one that don't care is pretty low;
at least at my school.
You should read what you wrote, again. It sounds silly, to me.

[BD5ER]

>You should read what you wrote, again. It sounds silly, to me.

It does? That's the way a large portion of the world works. Those that
perform get rewarded. Those that don't look for work. When I'm paying the
bill that's what I expect.

Guess which half doesn't like this concept.

[RobertR237]

In article >, Barnyard BOb --
> writes:

>
>Piece of cake.
>
>Fire the teachers of the least literate posters on Usenet.
>Then fire the teachers of those teachers. IF ANYBODY is
>left standing, give 'em a paycheck equal to private industry.
>
>Barnyard BOb - all my teachers and their teachers are dead
>
>

All mine are dead too but if not, they would have to be fired.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[RobertR237]

In article >,
(Daniel) writes:

>
>RobertR237 wrote ...
>> ... I would fire the person running my pension fund in a second. Supposed
>> expert has lost more than my non-educated investments.
>
>So quit yer bitchin', cash out & manage your money yourself.
>
>

Who was bitchin, just stated a fact. Beside, I have taken over the management
myself and have inproved my position a little. At least I stop the downward
slide.

Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Barnyard BOb --]

>>Fire the teachers of the least literate posters on Usenet.
>>Then fire the teachers of those teachers. IF ANYBODY is
>>left standing, give 'em a paycheck equal to private industry.
>>
>>Barnyard BOb - all my teachers and their teachers are dead
>>
>>
>
>All mine are dead too but if not, they would have to be fired.
>
>
>Bob Reed
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Really?
Most of my teachers were very competent.

In college, the worst I ever had was the gal
that was 'supposed' to be teaching chemistry.
She only lasted a couple of years, so the system
still wasn't broke at that point.

Barnyard BOb - call me the weak link in the chain

[Morgans]

"Barnyard BOb wrote:
>
> Really?
> Most of my teachers were very competent.
>
> In college, the worst I ever had was the gal
> that was 'supposed' to be teaching chemistry.
> She only lasted a couple of years, so the system
> still wasn't broke at that point.
>
> Barnyard BOb - call me the weak link in the chain
######################
Your observation is still closer to the truth, than some postings of late.

I don't know why some people just want to run the other guy down. (not just
about teaching)

I can only say that I'm tired of trying to convince the blockheads. They
must be the ones who never cracked a book out of class, then said the
teacher was at fault.
--
Jim (JUST running down blockheads) in NC--

[Me]

(Daniel) wrote in message >...
> RobertR237 wrote ...
> > ... I would fire the person running my pension fund in a second. Supposed
> > expert has lost more than my non-educated investments.
>
> So quit yer bitchin', cash out & manage your money yourself.

Bob Reed? Quit bitchin'? You might as well as ask the sun to stop
shining. The stars to stop twinkling. The rivers to stop flowing.
The sands to stop blowing. The birds to stop singing. The bees to
stop humming. Badwater to stop cussing. Larry to stop looking for
latches. Sydney to stop eating bon-bons. Barnyard to stop trying to
convince everyone he's superior. Yada, yada, yada.

Reed's posts are 98% bitching and moaning, 1.99999% not bitching and
moaning(usually in the form of kissing BWB's butt) and 0.00001% on
topic. I'm not really sure he's ever been on topic, but I'm feeling
generous today.

[Corky Scott]

On 18 Aug 2003 20:05:11 GMT, (BD5ER) wrote:

>> but how to we figure out good teachers from the
>>bad ones
>
>Who cares. Pay them the same way lots of other workers get paid. By the job -
>if it gets done right. Then let the parents pick which teacher they want based
>on their track record.
>
>If little Bob tests normal on the IQ test at the beginning of the year and he
>doesn't pass the final the teacher doesn't get paid. If little Bob gets an A
>the teacher gets a bonus. And grade on the curve, based on system wide, multi
>year, results. Yes, I used that evil, segregating, esteem bashing word -
>Grades.

Except for that old saying: "you can lead a horse to water but you
can't make it drink."

The best teachers in the world cannot force kids to learn if they
don't want to. Luckily, most kids do want to learn, but classroom
dynamics sometimes dictate how that goes.

In some classrooms, the bullies rule and pick on kids who are smart.
Naturally, those kids who are smart clam up for their own good.

It's just not as easy as you make it, not any more.

Corky Scott

[Steve Thomas]

A while ago a politican put out a lot of TV advertisements which stated
that teachers only really work 5 classroom hours a day which turns out to
be about 45$ per hour.
I decided to apply this logic and offered to pay my mechanic double that
(90$/hr)to put new rings in my engine.

He was delighted until I pointed out that I was just paying him to have the
rings put in.
The rest, opening the engine, removing the pistons, honing, shop supplies,
replacemnt, documentation, checking with me, etc was preparation time. I
would owe him about 45$.
I liked the deal.

On 18 Aug 2003 23:25:42 GMT, BD5ER > wrote:

>> I defy you to find a teacher that can accomplish
>> their job limitted to the contract hours.
>
> If you simply mean well enough to stay on the payroll, I believe there
> are too
> many. Now if you mean to accomplish what is traditionally expected of a
> teacher......
> to do it in 2000 hours a year takes a skilled and efficient professional.
>

[RobertR237]

In article >, Barnyard BOb --
> writes:

>
>Really?
>Most of my teachers were very competent.
>

Not sure if it was incompetent teachers or the system but by the time I was
half way through school I was bored to death and hated it with a passion. We
were part of the grand experiment in reading by phonics and then they decided
that wasn't working so they tried something else, then something else. I
learned to read quite well but never did learn to spell worth a damn.





Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Juan E Jimenez]

> In article >,
> (Me) writes:
>
> >> RobertR237 wrote ...
> >> > ... I would fire the person running my pension fund in a second.
> >Supposed
> >> > expert has lost more than my non-educated investments.
> >>
> >> So quit yer bitchin', cash out & manage your money yourself.
> >
> >Bob Reed? Quit bitchin'? You might as well as ask the sun to stop
> >shining. The stars to stop twinkling. The rivers to stop flowing.
> >The sands to stop blowing. The birds to stop singing. The bees to
> >stop humming. Badwater to stop cussing. Larry to stop looking for
> >latches. Sydney to stop eating bon-bons. Barnyard to stop trying to
> >convince everyone he's superior. Yada, yada, yada.
> >
> >Reed's posts are 98% bitching and moaning, 1.99999% not bitching and
> >moaning(usually in the form of kissing BWB's butt) and 0.00001% on
> >topic. I'm not really sure he's ever been on topic, but I'm feeling
> >generous today.

And you're 99.999% right on the money. :)

[Jim Weir]

Or, as Dorothy Parker put it...

"You can lead a horticulture, but you cannot make her think."

Jim



(Corky Scott)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->
->Except for that old saying: "you can lead a horse to water but you
->can't make it drink."




Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Cy Galley]

Sounds like a good Champaign slogan. <GRIN>

"Jim Weir" > wrote in message
...
> Or, as Dorothy Parker put it...
>
> "You can lead a horticulture, but you cannot make her think."
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> (Corky Scott)
> shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
>
> ->
> ->Except for that old saying: "you can lead a horse to water but you
> ->can't make it drink."
>
>
>
>
> Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
> VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
> http://www.rst-engr.com

[CW9371]

>
>Really?
>Most of my teachers were very competent.
>

Lets see here, my mother is 23 years older then me but yet i had 2 teachers
that taught her. The one used the same tests for the entire time he taught.
HMMMM no cheating there. Anyways he was so tired of teaching but just wanted
30 years in that he would fall asleep in class. The other one was just an ass
who was putting in time to hit 30 years. Didnt care about anything. Some of
my best teachers were the ones that bucked the system. They didnt lsat long,
but they made learning fun so i learned. PS I am very smart, but then again
ordinary things bore me. Oh well. PPS I cant type so..... lol dont comment
on it. lol

[RobertR237]

In article <xYq0b.199660$o%2.92334@sccrnsc02>, "Juan E Jimenez"
> writes:

>> >
>> >Reed's posts are 98% bitching and moaning, 1.99999% not bitching and
>> >moaning(usually in the form of kissing BWB's butt) and 0.00001% on
>> >topic. I'm not really sure he's ever been on topic, but I'm feeling
>> >generous today.
>
>And you're 99.999% right on the money. :)
>
>

My but havn't you set a great example.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Juan E Jimenez]

"RobertR237" > wrote in message
...
>
> My but havn't you set a great example.

Yes, that's what the people who email me about my stories say. What's your
excuse? :)

[RobertR237]

In article >, "Juan E
Jimenez" > writes:

>>
>> My but havn't you set a great example.
>
>Yes, that's what the people who email me about my stories say. What's your
>excuse? :)
>
>

Yada, yada, yada. You are sounding more like the Zoomer every day. Next you
will try and tell us that you have flown a thousand different aircraft and did
relief work in Iraq.

On the other hand, my web site did get coverage in KitPlanes this month and a
lot of people have sent me emails over the years thanking me for the help the
site has been to them. Unlike the repeated boasting about your "stories" and
emails about how great they are, I haven't found it necessary to relay that
information (until now).

So quit patting yourself on the back, you will only strain your arm.




Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Juan E Jimenez]

"RobertR237" > wrote in message
...
>
> Yada, yada, yada. You are sounding more like the Zoomer every day.

Yada, yada, yada... always the same old tired response, from the same old
tired person, same old tired references to Zoom, like a broken record. Such
a complete lack of originality is unusual, but in your case, you're from
texas...

> On the other hand, my web site did get coverage in KitPlanes this month

Whoopie! ROFL! :)

[AL]

"Ida Covey"

Can we infer from your statements, such as;

> Most white collar workers that I know [snip]

That you are actually referring to blue collar workers? They're the ones who
actually work. White collar refers to those who "plan" or manage, etc.

AL

[Warren & Nancy]

AL wrote:

> "Ida Covey"
>
> Can we infer from your statements, such as;
>
> > Most white collar workers that I know [snip]
>
> That you are actually referring to blue collar workers? They're the ones who
> actually work. White collar refers to those who "plan" or manage, etc.
>
> AL

You're not insinuating that "planning" or "managing" isn't wor?. You obviously
never had to do that for some of the less motivated employees. I believe that
"mental" work is sometimes MUCH harder that physical.

Warren

[Warren & Nancy]

Barnyard BOb -- wrote:

>
>
> I'f I'm wrong...
> NEVER MIND.
>
> Blue Collar BOb --

Oh, I had been there long enough to know that I didn't want to be there anymore
than absolutely necessary. I "worked" my war through college so I didn't have to
"work" (by your definition) anymore.

White collar Warren (most, but not all of the time)

[Barnyard BOb --]

>> I'f I'm wrong...
>> NEVER MIND.
>>
>> Blue Collar BOb --
>
>Oh, I had been there long enough to know that I didn't want to be there anymore
>than absolutely necessary. I "worked" my war through college so I didn't have to
>"work" (by your definition) anymore.
>
>White collar Warren (most, but not all of the time)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Well, I went on to get a college education,
but it wasn't necessary for any work I ever
much cared about.

My kids and wife all have Masters degrees
and WORK at white collar jobs with good pay.... but,
my roots and heart will forever remain genuine 'blue collar'.

It's a state of mind and one should never forget their
roots and the blue collar generations that sacrificed
so much so the next generation could have it 'better'.

YMMV.

SOAPBOX = OFF

Barnyard BOb --

[Warren & Nancy]

Barnyard BOb -- wrote:

> >> I'f I'm wrong...
> >> NEVER MIND.
> >>
> >> Blue Collar BOb --
> >
> >Oh, I had been there long enough to know that I didn't want to be there anymore
> >than absolutely necessary. I "worked" my war through college so I didn't have to
> >"work" (by your definition) anymore.
> >
> >White collar Warren (most, but not all of the time)
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Well, I went on to get a college education,
> but it wasn't necessary for any work I ever
> much cared about.
>
> My kids and wife all have Masters degrees
> and WORK at white collar jobs with good pay.... but,
> my roots and heart will forever remain genuine 'blue collar'.
>
> It's a state of mind and one should never forget their
> roots and the blue collar generations that sacrificed
> so much so the next generation could have it 'better'.
>
> YMMV.
>
> SOAPBOX = OFF
>
> Barnyard BOb --

Unfortunately, the blue collar workers around here are so intent in increasing their
membership, they are pricing the parts their company makes so high that the companies
are losing business, and going out of business. It is difficult to compete with low
cost "off shore" businesses. The option is parts and products that nobody will be
able to afford.

I am not a UAW fan, with some of their ridiculous "demands". like new laptops and high
speed internet for all union members paid for by the company.

[RobertR237]

In article >, Warren & Nancy >
writes:

>>
>> That you are actually referring to blue collar workers? They're the ones
>who
>> actually work. White collar refers to those who "plan" or manage, etc.
>>
>> AL
>
>You're not insinuating that "planning" or "managing" isn't wor?. You
>obviously
>never had to do that for some of the less motivated employees. I believe
>that
>"mental" work is sometimes MUCH harder that physical.
>
>Warren
>
>

Having done both I would like to agree but also having done both I will opt for
the "mental" work whenever possible. At least with the mental work I don't
hurt the next day.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Barnyard BOb --]

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:05:48 -0400, Warren & Nancy >
wrote:

>
>Unfortunately, the blue collar workers around here are so intent in increasing their
>membership, they are pricing the parts their company makes so high that the companies
>are losing business, and going out of business. It is difficult to compete with low
>cost "off shore" businesses. The option is parts and products that nobody will be
>able to afford.
>
>I am not a UAW fan, with some of their ridiculous "demands". like new laptops and high
>speed internet for all union members paid for by the company.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Total nonsense, Warren.
This dawg of yours won't ever hunt...
although very popular among folks that have
been schooled to believe such poppy-cock.

READ S-L-O-W-L-Y and deliberately, now....

The PRICE of vehicles is SET BY MARKET FORCES, never worker costs.
Regardless of worker demands or costs... GM would be derelict, by the
rules of capitalism, if they did not CHARGE ALL THE MARKET WOULD
BEAR. What they don't spend on workers is either put in the profit
column or in the pockets of management.

Most jobs lost to overseas are lost more to OSHA, EPA and
other government compliances than any worker attempting to
max out on the fortunes of his mega-billion dollar employer.

Case in point....
If the terminated shoe workers of the USA would work
for FREE, Nike still would not come back to the USA
when they can violate all standards of health and
humanity overseas by making $250 shoes for 75 cents.

Barnyard BOb --

[Barnyard BOb --]

>Having done both I would like to agree but also having done both I will opt for
>the "mental" work whenever possible. At least with the mental work I don't
>hurt the next day.
>
>
>Bob Reed
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

To play devil's advocate....

"Mental" work can literally be a KILLER.

Workers who earn their keep from physical work seldom
die from job stress. Not so true of hotshot managers
that daily "work out" in the company gym. <g>


Barnyard BOb --

[RobertR237]

In article >, Barnyard BOb --
> writes:

>
>>Having done both I would like to agree but also having done both I will opt
>for
>>the "mental" work whenever possible. At least with the mental work I don't
>>hurt the next day.
>>
>>
>>Bob Reed
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>To play devil's advocate....
>
>"Mental" work can literally be a KILLER.
>
>Workers who earn their keep from physical work seldom
>die from job stress. Not so true of hotshot managers
>that daily "work out" in the company gym. <g>
>
>
>Barnyard BOb --
>
>

No argument on that point only this observation.

People who are doing work that they hate, be it work the assembly line or work
the management ladder, are more likely to die from stress. If you are doing
work that you enjoy, even if you don't get paid as much as you like, it will
probably not kill you (Not from stress anyway.)


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[pac plyer]

Barnyard BOb -- > wrote

<excellent stuff snipped>
> The PRICE of vehicles is SET BY MARKET FORCES, never worker costs.
> Regardless of worker demands or costs... GM would be derelict, by the
> rules of capitalism, if they did not CHARGE ALL THE MARKET WOULD
> BEAR. What they don't spend on workers is either put in the profit
> column or in the pockets of management.
>
> Most jobs lost to overseas are lost more to OSHA, EPA and
> other government compliances than any worker attempting to
> max out on the fortunes of his mega-billion dollar employer.
>
> Case in point....
> If the terminated shoe workers of the USA would work
> for FREE, Nike still would not come back to the USA
> when they can violate all standards of health and
> humanity overseas by making $250 shoes for 75 cents.
>
> Barnyard BOb --

You just described the past situation of Reback (can't spell) in the
Philippines. Their government got greedy and started putzing around
with their business (extortion) and Rebak moved it to mainland China.
The workers in both places have no benifits at all and make "zip point
****" an hour. If you doubled their wages it wouldn't be what the gov
was gouging the shoe maker for. Estrada: by some counts squirreled
away more than Marcos did of the Philippine treasury. The only answer
for us blue collar slobs: Unionize and strike. Otherwise the robber
barrons of this world will reach into your pocket and squeeze
everything thats down there. Bad management deserves unionization.

pacplyer
there's nothing like flying under a contract

[Barnyard BOb --]

On 21 Aug 2003 23:48:19 GMT, (CW9371) wrote:

>>Nike still would not come back to the USA
>>when they can violate all standards of health and
>>humanity overseas by making $250 shoes for 75 cents.
>>
>
>Bob, NO WONDER YOU THINK 50 K a year isnt anything if your buying $250.00 a
>pair Nikes.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Where do you derive such fantasy?
As a retiree, I don't see anything close to that figure.

FWIW --
I've BOYCOTTED NIKE for years....
and would NOT buy their shoes at any price.


Barnyard BOb --

[Jim Weir]

EASY now. I'm not sure why you are slandering burgerflippers by including them
in the same sentence as politicians.

POLITICS: Poli = Greek word for "many". Ticks = bloodsucking scavengers.


Jim


(RobertR237)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->a faster rate than blue collar jobs. At the rate things are going right now
->there won't be any kind of job left here except for flipping burgers at
->McDonalds and politicians.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[RobertR237]

In article >, Jim Weir
> writes:

>
>EASY now. I'm not sure why you are slandering burgerflippers by including
>them
>in the same sentence as politicians.
>
>POLITICS: Poli = Greek word for "many". Ticks = bloodsucking scavengers.
>
>
>Jim
>

SORRY! I will say a thousand hell maries as pentance.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Barnyard BOb --]

>SORRY! I will say a thousand hell maries as pentance.
>
>
>Bob Reed
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

TRANSLATION:

SORRY! I will say one thousand Hail Mary's as penance.



Barnyard BOb --

[RobertR237]

In article >, Barnyard BOb --
> writes:

>
>>SORRY! I will say a thousand hell maries as pentance.
>>
>>
>>Bob Reed
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>TRANSLATION:
>
>SORRY! I will say one thousand Hail Mary's as penance.
>
>
>
>Barnyard BOb --
>
>

Wrong BOb-O, its Hell Maries as pentance. ;-))))))

In this case, I actually typed it as I had intended.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Jim Weir]

r
->
->SORRY! I will say a thousand hell maries as pentance.
->
->

TRANSLATION #2: I will say a thousand hell maries as a pittance.

{;-)

Jim



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[AL]

>"dann mann" <
> I'm a single guy making 35000 annually. Live in San Diego. Have a nice
> home worth about 350,000.

> You can do fine if you don't try to own all the latest stuff and show
> off.

Or sleep in doors and eat.

AL

[Morgans]

"dann mann" > wrote in message
...
> I'm a single guy making 35000 annually. Live in San Diego. Have a nice
> home worth about 350,000. I want for nothing because I keep it simple
> and live close to work. (printing trade) Plenty of toys (Motorcycle,
> Minimax) and no debt besides the mortgage.
> You can do fine if you don't try to own all the latest stuff and show
> off.
>

Or have a family.
--
Jim in NC

[Lou Parker]

"Morgans" > wrote in message >...
> "dann mann" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm a single guy making 35000 annually. Live in San Diego. Have a nice
> > home worth about 350,000. I want for nothing because I keep it simple
> > and live close to work. (printing trade) Plenty of toys (Motorcycle,
> > Minimax) and no debt besides the mortgage.
> > You can do fine if you don't try to own all the latest stuff and show
> > off.
> >
>
> Or have a family.
You must have been willed the house or bought it at birth to make
35000 and own a 350,000 house.