Autopilot questions for small GA aircraft

[Mxsmanic]

Some questions on autopilots for pilots of small GA aircraft:

1. Do you have an autopilot in your aircraft? If so, how many axes/modes?

2. Which modes do you find yourself using most often, and in what conditions?

3. Do you use your autopilot differently between VFR and IFR flight? If so,
what do you do differently?

4. How much do you trust your autopilot? Have you experienced failures? Were
they inconveniences or did they impact safety?

5. Do you find that autopilots add safety or merely add convenience?

6. Excluding situations in which autopilot is required (autolands, RVSM,
etc.), are there situations in which you prefer not to fly without an
autopilot?

Other comments welcome as well, of course.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[ZikZak]

On May 7, 6:22 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Some questions on autopilots for pilots of small GA aircraft:
>
> 1. Do you have an autopilot in your aircraft? If so, how many axes/modes?

Yes, 3-axis and autotrim with heading, nav, and backcourse mode while
holding attitude, altitude, or glideslope.

> 2. Which modes do you find yourself using most often, and in what conditions?

Enroute altitude mode, nav or heading.

> 3. Do you use your autopilot differently between VFR and IFR flight? If so,
> what do you do differently?

Not really, I fly approaches manually since I don't fully trust the
autopilot's calibration.

> 4. How much do you trust your autopilot? Have you experienced failures? Were
> they inconveniences or did they impact safety?

Sometimes it will track a degree or two off course. Fine for nav, but
less ok for approaches. It's switched off in the past also. It has not
compromised safety because I monitor it at all times.

> 5. Do you find that autopilots add safety or merely add convenience?

Both. I'd be a lot more tired at the end of a long cross-country if I
had to hand-fly it the whole way.

> 6. Excluding situations in which autopilot is required (autolands, RVSM,
> etc.), are there situations in which you prefer not to fly without an
> autopilot?

Pretty much any time I'm doing something other than droning along on a
cross-country. Flying is supposed to be FUN! How much fun can it be
with the autopilot going all the time?

[ZikZak]

On May 7, 6:22 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:

> Other comments welcome as well, of course.

You're not likely to find many "small GA aircraft" with RVSM or
autoland.

[chris[_1_]]

On May 8, 1:22 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Some questions on autopilots for pilots of small GA aircraft:
>
> 1. Do you have an autopilot in your aircraft? If so, how many axes/modes?
>

Some of the aircraft I fly do have them. All are single axis. You can
select HDG to follow the bug or NAV to follow a VOR, and some other
modes I haven't tried. One apparently will follow the GPS but I
couldn't figure the GPS out last time I flew that plane. One of the
other club planes, a Twin Comanche has alt hold as well as hdg hold. I
think a couple of our planes have autopilot disconnect switches handy
to your left hand as well.


> 2. Which modes do you find yourself using most often, and in what conditions?

HDG mode is all I have ever used, when I have trimmed it up and am on
track I sometimes set the autopilot up and sit back and relax.

>
> 3. Do you use your autopilot differently between VFR and IFR flight? If so,
> what do you do differently?

N/A - don't fly IFR

>
> 4. How much do you trust your autopilot? Have you experienced failures? Were
> they inconveniences or did they impact safety?

Seems to work OK, just have to remember that if you decide to change
direction the control column will strongly resist you trying to turn
it. Apparently a sharp yank will disconnect autopilot but have not
tried that. Gives you a fright when you go to turn left and it won't
turn!!

>
> 5. Do you find that autopilots add safety or merely add convenience?

Using autopilot I am more likely to fly straight along the track
rather than wobbling around like I normally do :)

>
> 6. Excluding situations in which autopilot is required (autolands, RVSM,
> etc.), are there situations in which you prefer not to fly without an
> autopilot?

I only use it for decent cross country flights, everything else,
including takeoff and landing I switch it off.

[Mxsmanic]

ZikZak writes:

> You're not likely to find many "small GA aircraft" with RVSM or
> autoland.

True, but you never know. Someone might be flying a small and expensive jet,
for example.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Viperdoc]

Although it's against my better judgment, it appears to be a reasonable
question, so here's my input.

Three axis autopilot with altitude hold. Use heading and nav mode the most,
approach mode as needed.

Use it all the time from 1000 feet AGL until entering the pattern. Use it
for all approaches- this is one time when the work load is the highest, and
it gives more time to check instruments, charts, and configure the plane.

Enroute used exclusively- makes planning, checking charts, communication,
much easier.

It is essential for safety, for the above reasons, along with less fatigue.
I have had an obvious failure of a servo enroute, and had to hand fly for
around six hours, including an ILS approach at an unfamilar airport to near
mins.

It is a critical item for a high performance plane.

In my opnion flying cross country is about getting to the destination as
rapidly as possible without challenges, anxiety, or problems. This involves
having as much airplane as one can afford that gives the maximal amount of
speed, systems redundancy, and capability.

Yes, it is still a lot of fun, and can be extremely challenging, but if I
want a real "flying" experience, I can go up and fly acro- there's nothing
like pulling or pushing g's for a real visceral experience and challenge.

Otherwise, it's autopilot on as much as possible.
"ZikZak" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On May 7, 6:22 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>> Some questions on autopilots for pilots of small GA aircraft:
>>
>> 1. Do you have an autopilot in your aircraft? If so, how many
>> axes/modes?
>
> Yes, 3-axis and autotrim with heading, nav, and backcourse mode while
> holding attitude, altitude, or glideslope.
>
>> 2. Which modes do you find yourself using most often, and in what
>> conditions?
>
> Enroute altitude mode, nav or heading.
>
>> 3. Do you use your autopilot differently between VFR and IFR flight? If
>> so,
>> what do you do differently?
>
> Not really, I fly approaches manually since I don't fully trust the
> autopilot's calibration.
>
>> 4. How much do you trust your autopilot? Have you experienced failures?
>> Were
>> they inconveniences or did they impact safety?
>
> Sometimes it will track a degree or two off course. Fine for nav, but
> less ok for approaches. It's switched off in the past also. It has not
> compromised safety because I monitor it at all times.
>
>> 5. Do you find that autopilots add safety or merely add convenience?
>
> Both. I'd be a lot more tired at the end of a long cross-country if I
> had to hand-fly it the whole way.
>
>> 6. Excluding situations in which autopilot is required (autolands, RVSM,
>> etc.), are there situations in which you prefer not to fly without an
>> autopilot?
>
> Pretty much any time I'm doing something other than droning along on a
> cross-country. Flying is supposed to be FUN! How much fun can it be
> with the autopilot going all the time?
>

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

>
>
> Other comments welcome as well, of course.
>

Like "you;'re a fjukkwit"?

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> ZikZak writes:
>
>> You're not likely to find many "small GA aircraft" with RVSM or
>> autoland.
>
> True, but you never know. Someone might be flying a small and
> expensive jet, for example.
>

Not, you , of course, since you can't fly.

Bertie

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Mxsmanic > said:
>Some questions on autopilots for pilots of small GA aircraft:
>
>1. Do you have an autopilot in your aircraft? If so, how many axes/modes?

Of our club's 4 aircraft, two have simple heading-only, and two have an
additional altitude hold. We recently sold the only one that didn't have
an autopilot at all.

>2. Which modes do you find yourself using most often, and in what conditions?

When I use an autopilot, I only use HDG. I don't trust the NAV mode, and
I prefer to hand fly approaches. I use the HDG mode a lot when I'm
droning along on airways, but don't use the altitude hold so I have
something to do.


>3. Do you use your autopilot differently between VFR and IFR flight? If so,
>what do you do differently?

VFR, I hardly use it at all, except maybe when I'm checking a chart - the
rest of the time I want the option to throw it into a steep bank when the
mood strikes me or I want to look at something on the ground. IFR, I use
the heading mode most of the time en-route. Usually when I trim the plane
correctly I don't need the altitude hold, so I hardly use it.

>4. How much do you trust your autopilot? Have you experienced failures? Were
>they inconveniences or did they impact safety?

When I first started using the club planes that had autopilots (I trained
in the one that didn't have an autopilot), the first time I tried one it
put me into a 30 degree bank away from my course. If it hadn't been good
VMC, it might have been a safety impact. But only an idiot would try an
autopilot for the first time in IMC.

>5. Do you find that autopilots add safety or merely add convenience?

Both. Last week when I was doing my IPC I started to get airsick. I
immediately turned on the autopilot so I could take a break.

>6. Excluding situations in which autopilot is required (autolands, RVSM,
>etc.), are there situations in which you prefer not to fly without an
>autopilot?

Already answered.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
Whenever someone says something exceedingly stupid, I feel it my duty to
educate them. Plus, everyone else leaves and the meeting becomes de
facto over. -- Rob Russell understands meetings

[Paul kgyy]

On May 7, 8:22 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Some questions on autopilots for pilots of small GA aircraft:
>
> 1. Do you have an autopilot in your aircraft? If so, how many axes/modes?
> STEC 30 2 axis, but no climb/descent/glide slope
> 2. Which modes do you find yourself using most often, and in what conditions?
> GPS steering based on GPS flight plan - turn it on at cruise altitude after trimming level
> 3. Do you use your autopilot differently between VFR and IFR flight? If so,
> what do you do differently?
> Not really any different, unless sightseeing.
> 4. How much do you trust your autopilot? Have you experienced failures? Were
> they inconveniences or did they impact safety?
> No failures, but I don't completely trust it - just keep an eye on it.
> 5. Do you find that autopilots add safety or merely add convenience?
> Big safety feature, especially when using the Little Red Bottle
> 6. Excluding situations in which autopilot is required (autolands, RVSM,
> etc.), are there situations in which you prefer not to fly without an
> autopilot? Sometimes turn it off to practice hand flying with accuracy.
>
> Other comments welcome as well, of course.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Thomas Borchert]

Viperdoc,

> Three axis autopilot
>

You have a yaw damper?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

ZikZak,

> 3-axis
>

Yaw damper?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

The questions make sense, so I'll answer. I'll then sit back and let the thread
deteriorate.

> 1. Do you have an autopilot in your aircraft? If so, how many axes/modes?

Yes. S-TEC 50. Two axis, HDG, NAV, APP (no alt), GPSS

> 2. Which modes do you find yourself using most often, and in what conditions?

GPSS and HDG with ALT in cruise, HDG and APP during approaches

> 3. Do you use your autopilot differently between VFR and IFR flight? If so,
> what do you do differently?

During IFR, it makes sense to use it for approaches. For VFR, it doesn't.

> 4. How much do you trust your autopilot? Have you experienced failures? Were
> they inconveniences or did they impact safety?

I trust it very much. I have experienced failures of the altitude mode with
uncommanded steep climbs. Inconvenient, but not safety critical due to
monitoring by the pilot. I've seen it fail it's self test. That's what it's for.

> 5. Do you find that autopilots add safety or merely add convenience?

Safety. Hugely. Especially for single pilot IFR, where I'd consider them almost
mandatory (they are, in fact, where I currently fly IFR).

> 6. Excluding situations in which autopilot is required (autolands, RVSM,
> etc.), are there situations in which you prefer not to fly without an
> autopilot?

Any kind of close quarter maneuvering, including the standard VFR traffic
pattern.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Robert M. Gary]

On May 7, 6:22 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Some questions on autopilots for pilots of small GA aircraft:
>
> 1. Do you have an autopilot in your aircraft? If so, how many axes/modes?
>
> 2. Which modes do you find yourself using most often, and in what conditions?
>
> 3. Do you use your autopilot differently between VFR and IFR flight? If so,
> what do you do differently?
>
> 4. How much do you trust your autopilot? Have you experienced failures? Were
> they inconveniences or did they impact safety?
>
> 5. Do you find that autopilots add safety or merely add convenience?
>
> 6. Excluding situations in which autopilot is required (autolands, RVSM,
> etc.), are there situations in which you prefer not to fly without an
> autopilot?
>
> Other comments welcome as well, of course.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On the 182 (with G1000 KAP 140) we can doing full coupled approaches.
The autopilot takes over when the wheels leave the ground and I don't
kick it off until 200 feet. Full GPSS, etc.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On May 7, 6:22 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Some questions on autopilots for pilots of small GA aircraft:
>
> 1. Do you have an autopilot in your aircraft? If so, how many axes/modes?
>
> 2. Which modes do you find yourself using most often, and in what conditions?
>
> 3. Do you use your autopilot differently between VFR and IFR flight? If so,
> what do you do differently?
>
> 4. How much do you trust your autopilot? Have you experienced failures? Were
> they inconveniences or did they impact safety?
>
> 5. Do you find that autopilots add safety or merely add convenience?
>
> 6. Excluding situations in which autopilot is required (autolands, RVSM,
> etc.), are there situations in which you prefer not to fly without an
> autopilot?
>
> Other comments welcome as well, of course.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

I think you'll find that it is very odd for a high performance single
to not have some sort of an autopilot. In my personal airplane I have
a single axis autopilot that can follow the loc, vor, etc. Most of the
time I use it on heading mode. For VFR it does a much better job of
holding a heading for 6 hours than I can (I tend to drift around a
bit). For IFR its very nice to not have to hold the plane upright in
mild turb while looking at charts. For any turb beyond mild my
autopilot tends to diverge so I have to turn it off. Incidently the
Mooney is one of the only aircraft certified for full time autopilot.
I later got an addition to my POH allowing me to turn the autopilot
off by pulling the breaker (which puts a big red light on in the
panel). The plane has no "off" switch for the autopilot because it was
certified as "full time". There is a red interrupt button on the yoke
but the second you release it, the autopilot is back in control. Some
pilots put rubber bands on the button to hold it down when they don't
want it.

-Robert

[chris[_1_]]

Other comments welcome as well, of course.
>
> > --
> > Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
>
> I think you'll find that it is very odd for a high performance single
> to not have some sort of an autopilot. In my personal airplane I have
> a single axis autopilot that can follow the loc, vor, etc. Most of the
> time I use it on heading mode. For VFR it does a much better job of
> holding a heading for 6 hours than I can (I tend to drift around a
> bit). For IFR its very nice to not have to hold the plane upright in
> mild turb while looking at charts. For any turb beyond mild my
> autopilot tends to diverge so I have to turn it off. Incidently the
> Mooney is one of the only aircraft certified for full time autopilot.
> I later got an addition to my POH allowing me to turn the autopilot
> off by pulling the breaker (which puts a big red light on in the
> panel). The plane has no "off" switch for the autopilot because it was
> certified as "full time". There is a red interrupt button on the yoke
> but the second you release it, the autopilot is back in control. Some
> pilots put rubber bands on the button to hold it down when they don't
> want it.
>
> -Robert


Wow, that's amazing!! So how do you do flight training in it? With
your hand on the button during a wingdrop etc, I suppose.. Sounds
like a bit of an oversight for them to not even include an off
button!!!! How do you get on taxiing??? In a normal autopilot you'd
have the controls trying to take your knees out constantly :)

[Robert M. Gary]

On May 8, 1:13 pm, chris > wrote:
> Other comments welcome as well, of course.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > --
> > > Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
>
> > I think you'll find that it is very odd for a high performance single
> > to not have some sort of an autopilot. In my personal airplane I have
> > a single axis autopilot that can follow the loc, vor, etc. Most of the
> > time I use it on heading mode. For VFR it does a much better job of
> > holding a heading for 6 hours than I can (I tend to drift around a
> > bit). For IFR its very nice to not have to hold the plane upright in
> > mild turb while looking at charts. For any turb beyond mild my
> > autopilot tends to diverge so I have to turn it off. Incidently the
> > Mooney is one of the only aircraft certified for full time autopilot.
> > I later got an addition to my POH allowing me to turn the autopilot
> > off by pulling the breaker (which puts a big red light on in the
> > panel). The plane has no "off" switch for the autopilot because it was
> > certified as "full time". There is a red interrupt button on the yoke
> > but the second you release it, the autopilot is back in control. Some
> > pilots put rubber bands on the button to hold it down when they don't
> > want it.
>
> > -Robert
>
> Wow, that's amazing!! So how do you do flight training in it? With
> your hand on the button during a wingdrop etc, I suppose.. Sounds
> like a bit of an oversight for them to not even include an off
> button!!!! How do you get on taxiing??? In a normal autopilot you'd
> have the controls trying to take your knees out constantly :)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yep, that's about what happens. I'm sure pilots had always pulled the
breaker. You do have to explain to pax why there is a big red warning
light on though.

-Robert

[chris[_1_]]

On May 9, 8:34 am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On May 8, 1:13 pm, chris > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Other comments welcome as well, of course.
>
> > > > --
> > > > Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
>
> > > I think you'll find that it is very odd for a high performance single
> > > to not have some sort of an autopilot. In my personal airplane I have
> > > a single axis autopilot that can follow the loc, vor, etc. Most of the
> > > time I use it on heading mode. For VFR it does a much better job of
> > > holding a heading for 6 hours than I can (I tend to drift around a
> > > bit). For IFR its very nice to not have to hold the plane upright in
> > > mild turb while looking at charts. For any turb beyond mild my
> > > autopilot tends to diverge so I have to turn it off. Incidently the
> > > Mooney is one of the only aircraft certified for full time autopilot.
> > > I later got an addition to my POH allowing me to turn the autopilot
> > > off by pulling the breaker (which puts a big red light on in the
> > > panel). The plane has no "off" switch for the autopilot because it was
> > > certified as "full time". There is a red interrupt button on the yoke
> > > but the second you release it, the autopilot is back in control. Some
> > > pilots put rubber bands on the button to hold it down when they don't
> > > want it.
>
> > > -Robert
>
> > Wow, that's amazing!! So how do you do flight training in it? With
> > your hand on the button during a wingdrop etc, I suppose.. Sounds
> > like a bit of an oversight for them to not even include an off
> > button!!!! How do you get on taxiing??? In a normal autopilot you'd
> > have the controls trying to take your knees out constantly :)- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Yep, that's about what happens. I'm sure pilots had always pulled the
> breaker. You do have to explain to pax why there is a big red warning
> light on though.
>
> -Robert- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That's about the most bizarre thing I have ever heard!

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"ZikZak" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On May 7, 6:22 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>> Some questions on autopilots for pilots of small GA aircraft:
>>
>> 1. Do you have an autopilot in your aircraft? If so, how many
>> axes/modes?
>
<...>
> Pretty much any time I'm doing something other than droning along on a
> cross-country. Flying is supposed to be FUN! How much fun can it be
> with the autopilot going all the time?
>

I'm inclined to agree with that. But I've never flown an airplane with an
autopilot, so while it might be nice at times, I can't say for sure. On the
other hand, I can say that I've never felt a desire to have one.

Most of my flying has been GFR - even most cross country. The longest trip I
ever took was from Michigan to Alaska (and back) in a Cessna 120 - and even
that was more about making the trip and not so much about getting there.
(Once there, we just turned around and came back...)

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Kev]

On May 8, 1:39 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> I think you'll find that it is very odd for a high performance single
> to not have some sort of an autopilot. In my personal airplane I have
> a single axis autopilot that can follow the loc, vor, etc. Most of the
> time I use it on heading mode.[...]

I'm not that familiar with Mooneys, but I thought all they had full-
time was a simple wing-leveler. I didn't realize it could also be
slaved to LOC, VOR, HDG. Is that normal, or an option or ?

Thanks!
Kev

[Ron Garret]

In article om>,
chris > wrote:

> On May 9, 8:34 am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> > On May 8, 1:13 pm, chris > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Other comments welcome as well, of course.
> >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
> >
> > > > I think you'll find that it is very odd for a high performance single
> > > > to not have some sort of an autopilot. In my personal airplane I have
> > > > a single axis autopilot that can follow the loc, vor, etc. Most of the
> > > > time I use it on heading mode. For VFR it does a much better job of
> > > > holding a heading for 6 hours than I can (I tend to drift around a
> > > > bit). For IFR its very nice to not have to hold the plane upright in
> > > > mild turb while looking at charts. For any turb beyond mild my
> > > > autopilot tends to diverge so I have to turn it off. Incidently the
> > > > Mooney is one of the only aircraft certified for full time autopilot.
> > > > I later got an addition to my POH allowing me to turn the autopilot
> > > > off by pulling the breaker (which puts a big red light on in the
> > > > panel). The plane has no "off" switch for the autopilot because it was
> > > > certified as "full time". There is a red interrupt button on the yoke
> > > > but the second you release it, the autopilot is back in control. Some
> > > > pilots put rubber bands on the button to hold it down when they don't
> > > > want it.
> >
> > > > -Robert
> >
> > > Wow, that's amazing!! So how do you do flight training in it? With
> > > your hand on the button during a wingdrop etc, I suppose.. Sounds
> > > like a bit of an oversight for them to not even include an off
> > > button!!!! How do you get on taxiing??? In a normal autopilot you'd
> > > have the controls trying to take your knees out constantly :)- Hide
> > > quoted text -
> >
> > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > Yep, that's about what happens. I'm sure pilots had always pulled the
> > breaker. You do have to explain to pax why there is a big red warning
> > light on though.
> >
> > -Robert- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> That's about the most bizarre thing I have ever heard!

Indeed. I find it almost impossible to believe.

rg

[Robert M. Gary]

On May 8, 2:28 pm, Kev > wrote:
> On May 8, 1:39 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> > I think you'll find that it is very odd for a high performance single
> > to not have some sort of an autopilot. In my personal airplane I have
> > a single axis autopilot that can follow the loc, vor, etc. Most of the
> > time I use it on heading mode.[...]
>
> I'm not that familiar with Mooneys, but I thought all they had full-
> time was a simple wing-leveler. I didn't realize it could also be
> slaved to LOC, VOR, HDG. Is that normal, or an option or ?
>
> Thanks!
> Kev

The basic system was a vac driven system that was just a full time
wing leveler. Later models (such as mine) included an option for the
"PathFinder" autopilot, which is fully electric and has a selector of
leveler/heading/nav1/nav2

-Robert

[chris[_1_]]

On May 9, 11:09 am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On May 8, 2:28 pm, Kev > wrote:
>
> > On May 8, 1:39 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> > > I think you'll find that it is very odd for a high performance single
> > > to not have some sort of an autopilot. In my personal airplane I have
> > > a single axis autopilot that can follow the loc, vor, etc. Most of the
> > > time I use it on heading mode.[...]
>
> > I'm not that familiar with Mooneys, but I thought all they had full-
> > time was a simple wing-leveler. I didn't realize it could also be
> > slaved to LOC, VOR, HDG. Is that normal, or an option or ?
>
> > Thanks!
> > Kev
>
> The basic system was a vac driven system that was just a full time
> wing leveler. Later models (such as mine) included an option for the
> "PathFinder" autopilot, which is fully electric and has a selector of
> leveler/heading/nav1/nav2
>
> -Robert

So is the wing leveler fighting with you when you want to go round a
corner??

[Peter Dohm]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On May 8, 1:13 pm, chris > wrote:
> > Other comments welcome as well, of course.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > --
> > > > Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
> >
> > > I think you'll find that it is very odd for a high performance single
> > > to not have some sort of an autopilot. In my personal airplane I have
> > > a single axis autopilot that can follow the loc, vor, etc. Most of the
> > > time I use it on heading mode. For VFR it does a much better job of
> > > holding a heading for 6 hours than I can (I tend to drift around a
> > > bit). For IFR its very nice to not have to hold the plane upright in
> > > mild turb while looking at charts. For any turb beyond mild my
> > > autopilot tends to diverge so I have to turn it off. Incidently the
> > > Mooney is one of the only aircraft certified for full time autopilot.
> > > I later got an addition to my POH allowing me to turn the autopilot
> > > off by pulling the breaker (which puts a big red light on in the
> > > panel). The plane has no "off" switch for the autopilot because it was
> > > certified as "full time". There is a red interrupt button on the yoke
> > > but the second you release it, the autopilot is back in control. Some
> > > pilots put rubber bands on the button to hold it down when they don't
> > > want it.
> >
> > > -Robert
> >
> > Wow, that's amazing!! So how do you do flight training in it? With
> > your hand on the button during a wingdrop etc, I suppose.. Sounds
> > like a bit of an oversight for them to not even include an off
> > button!!!! How do you get on taxiing??? In a normal autopilot you'd
> > have the controls trying to take your knees out constantly :)- Hide
quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Yep, that's about what happens. I'm sure pilots had always pulled the
> breaker. You do have to explain to pax why there is a big red warning
> light on though.
>
> -Robert
>
Nah! Just tell 'em to pray loudly, so that God can hear 'em over the
engine.

Peter
(Expecting to fly with high-sulfur fuel)

[Euan Kilgour]

On May 8, 1:52 pm, chris > wrote:
> On May 8, 1:22 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>
> > Some questions on autopilots for pilots of small GA aircraft:
>
> > 1. Do you have an autopilot in your aircraft? If so, how many axes/modes?
>
> Some of the aircraft I fly do have them. All are single axis. You can
> select HDG to follow the bug or NAV to follow a VOR, and some other
> modes I haven't tried. One apparently will follow the GPS but I
> couldn't figure the GPS out last time I flew that plane. One of the
> other club planes, a Twin Comanche has alt hold as well as hdg hold. I
> think a couple of our planes have autopilot disconnect switches handy
> to your left hand as well.

The Clubs 172R will hold heading and altitude, and runs on NAV, HDG
or GPS modes. I liken its GPS to using the VI text editor in Linux -
only those who know how to use it can use it. The rest of us just use
the radio function and thats it.

> > 2. Which modes do you find yourself using most often, and in what conditions?
>
> HDG mode is all I have ever used, when I have trimmed it up and am on
> track I sometimes set the autopilot up and sit back and relax.
>
>
>
> > 3. Do you use your autopilot differently between VFR and IFR flight? If so,
> > what do you do differently?
>
> N/A - don't fly IFR
>
>
>
> > 4. How much do you trust your autopilot? Have you experienced failures? Were
> > they inconveniences or did they impact safety?
>
> Seems to work OK, just have to remember that if you decide to change
> direction the control column will strongly resist you trying to turn
> it. Apparently a sharp yank will disconnect autopilot but have not
> tried that. Gives you a fright when you go to turn left and it won't
> turn!!

It was demonstrated to me in the clubs PA28 when I did my type rating
and you have to give it a fairly strong wrench to override it. And
yes, its quite scary. The 172 has an override switch on the controls.

> > 5. Do you find that autopilots add safety or merely add convenience?
>
> Using autopilot I am more likely to fly straight along the track
> rather than wobbling around like I normally do :)

Convenience. I don't see it being safer than hand flying as you don't
really have ready control over the aircraft. One of our local
airlines entire Beech 1900D fleet was ordered without autopilot. When
the CEO was asked why he said, "we're paying for 2 pilots why pay for
a 3rd?"

> > 6. Excluding situations in which autopilot is required (autolands, RVSM,
> > etc.), are there situations in which you prefer not to fly without an
> > autopilot?
>
> I only use it for decent cross country flights, everything else,
> including takeoff and landing I switch it off.

[Robert M. Gary]

On May 8, 4:19 pm, chris > wrote:
> On May 9, 11:09 am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 8, 2:28 pm, Kev > wrote:
>
> > > On May 8, 1:39 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> > > > I think you'll find that it is very odd for a high performance single
> > > > to not have some sort of an autopilot. In my personal airplane I have
> > > > a single axis autopilot that can follow the loc, vor, etc. Most of the
> > > > time I use it on heading mode.[...]
>
> > > I'm not that familiar with Mooneys, but I thought all they had full-
> > > time was a simple wing-leveler. I didn't realize it could also be
> > > slaved to LOC, VOR, HDG. Is that normal, or an option or ?
>
> > > Thanks!
> > > Kev
>
> > The basic system was a vac driven system that was just a full time
> > wing leveler. Later models (such as mine) included an option for the
> > "PathFinder" autopilot, which is fully electric and has a selector of
> > leveler/heading/nav1/nav2
>
> > -Robert
>
> So is the wing leveler fighting with you when you want to go round a
> corner??- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Technically the way you would initiate a turn is to tell the wing
leveler to make a standard rate turn left or right. It has a 3
position switch on the TC, straight, left, right. So they expected you
would either fly around the pattern using the turn director or hold
the override button down the entire time. Of course the autopilot is
also easily overpowerable.

-Robert

[chris[_1_]]

>
> > Some of the aircraft I fly do have them. All are single axis. You can
> > select HDG to follow the bug or NAV to follow a VOR, and some other
> > modes I haven't tried. One apparently will follow the GPS but I
> > couldn't figure the GPS out last time I flew that plane. One of the
> > other club planes, a Twin Comanche has alt hold as well as hdg hold. I
> > think a couple of our planes have autopilot disconnect switches handy
> > to your left hand as well.
>
> The Clubs 172R will hold heading and altitude, and runs on NAV, HDG
> or GPS modes. I liken its GPS to using the VI text editor in Linux -
> only those who know how to use it can use it. The rest of us just use
> the radio function and thats it.

Someone is going to have to show me how to use that some time!!

[Mxsmanic]

Paul Tomblin writes:

> Usually when I trim the plane
> correctly I don't need the altitude hold, so I hardly use it.

What about using the autopilot to trim, and then turning it off? I do this in
simulation, but only because the sim doesn't allow extremely precise trim
adjustments (as far as I know).

> But only an idiot would try an autopilot for the first time in IMC.

I dunno. A pilot who isn't IR might try to turn on the autopilot upon finding
himself in IMC in order to keep the aircraft straight and narrow while he
gathers his wits about him, even though he might not have ever had occasion to
use it previously. It would be a reasonably logical thing to try.

> Both. Last week when I was doing my IPC I started to get airsick. I
> immediately turned on the autopilot so I could take a break.

What is IPC?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Robert M. Gary writes:

> On the 182 (with G1000 KAP 140) we can doing full coupled approaches.
> The autopilot takes over when the wheels leave the ground and I don't
> kick it off until 200 feet. Full GPSS, etc.

Doesn't that take some of the alleged fun out of flying a small airplane?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Robert M. Gary writes:

> I think you'll find that it is very odd for a high performance single
> to not have some sort of an autopilot.

That's reassuring. I wouldn't want to fly anything without an autopilot--a
good one.

How much do autopilots for small aircraft cost? Do they have to be provided
for at the factory, or can they be retrofitted to an aircraft?

> The plane has no "off" switch for the autopilot because it was
> certified as "full time". There is a red interrupt button on the yoke
> but the second you release it, the autopilot is back in control. Some
> pilots put rubber bands on the button to hold it down when they don't
> want it.

I don't like that idea at all. Even airliners have positive disconnects for
the autopilot.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
>> On the 182 (with G1000 KAP 140) we can doing full coupled approaches.
>> The autopilot takes over when the wheels leave the ground and I don't
>> kick it off until 200 feet. Full GPSS, etc.
>
> Doesn't that take some of the alleged fun out of flying a small airplane?
>

Just trolling now.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Mxsmanic > said:
>Paul Tomblin writes:
>> Usually when I trim the plane
>> correctly I don't need the altitude hold, so I hardly use it.
>
>What about using the autopilot to trim, and then turning it off? I do this in
>simulation, but only because the sim doesn't allow extremely precise trim
>adjustments (as far as I know).

Recent aircraft (like the Cirrus) have a switch that automatically trims
off all the control force that you or your autopilot are holding. But the
sort of aircraft I can afford don't have that - you have to be pretty
close to trimmed before you can use the altitude hold.

>> But only an idiot would try an autopilot for the first time in IMC.
>
>I dunno. A pilot who isn't IR might try to turn on the autopilot upon finding
>himself in IMC in order to keep the aircraft straight and narrow while he
>gathers his wits about him, even though he might not have ever had occasion to
>use it previously. It would be a reasonably logical thing to try.

Sure, but it would be more logical to try out the autopilot when you're
checking out in the aircraft in the first place.

>> Both. Last week when I was doing my IPC I started to get airsick. I
>> immediately turned on the autopilot so I could take a break.
>
>What is IPC?

Instrument Proficiency Check.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
C has features?? I thought the whole point of that language was to
offer nothing but bare metal.
-- David P. Murphy

[Mxsmanic]

Paul Tomblin writes:

> Recent aircraft (like the Cirrus) have a switch that automatically trims
> off all the control force that you or your autopilot are holding.

Sounds like aircraft will eventually go the way of cars, with only a few
idiot-light indicators and perhaps an airspeed indicator.

I can see trimming off force for the pilot, but I'm puzzled by the autopilot
interaction. Don't most autopilots work by adjusting trim to begin with (at
least for altitude)?

> But the
> sort of aircraft I can afford don't have that - you have to be pretty
> close to trimmed before you can use the altitude hold.

What happens if you are far away when you engage the autopilot?

> Sure, but it would be more logical to try out the autopilot when you're
> checking out in the aircraft in the first place.

True, but when you're stuck in fog and you don't know anything about flying on
instruments, it might be instinctive to reach for something that could fly the
plane for you and give you some time to think of a way out of your situation.

> Instrument Proficiency Check.

Were you engaged in unusual maneuvers that made you sick? I don't know what
an IPC involves. One of my concerns about ever flying in a small airplane is
that the movements might make me sick, although I've never been airsick in
large aircraft (apart from some queasiness on one or two flights when I was
already sick with something else and we were flying through turbulence).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Mxsmanic > said:
>Paul Tomblin writes:
>> Recent aircraft (like the Cirrus) have a switch that automatically trims
>> off all the control force that you or your autopilot are holding.
>
>Sounds like aircraft will eventually go the way of cars, with only a few
>idiot-light indicators and perhaps an airspeed indicator.

Sounds like you know very little about what it means to pilot an aircraft.

>> But the
>> sort of aircraft I can afford don't have that - you have to be pretty
>> close to trimmed before you can use the altitude hold.
>
>What happens if you are far away when you engage the autopilot?

It disengages. If you're close but not right on, it flashes a "trim up"
or "trim down" light at you.

>> Sure, but it would be more logical to try out the autopilot when you're
>> checking out in the aircraft in the first place.
>
>True, but when you're stuck in fog and you don't know anything about flying on
>instruments, it might be instinctive to reach for something that could fly the
>plane for you and give you some time to think of a way out of your situation.

Part of checking out in a new aircraft is becoming familiar with *all*
aircraft systems - and you should do that in perfect weather. If you
haven't become familiar with all aircraft systems then you shouldn't be
flying it alone in marginal weather.

>> Instrument Proficiency Check.
>
>Were you engaged in unusual maneuvers that made you sick? I don't know what

Yes. One of the required skills for instrument flight is recovery from
unusual attitudes. You close your eyes, your instructor tries to get you
disoriented, puts the plane in an unusual attitude - usually either a
steep spiral dive or a steep climb near stall. It's the "get you
disoriented" part that got me sick - my instructor likes to give you a
real roller coaster. The first recovery, I counted four really hard
positive G pulls, a couple of hard negative G pushes,some hard slips and
skids, and the stall horn went off a couple of times. The second recovery
was about the same.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
Surely the 98% of DNA we share with monkeys must be enough to stop
people from sinking this low.
-- Frossie

[Mxsmanic]

Paul Tomblin writes:

> Sounds like you know very little about what it means to pilot an aircraft.

Wait and see. Cirrus is doing very well.

> Part of checking out in a new aircraft is becoming familiar with *all*
> aircraft systems - and you should do that in perfect weather. If you
> haven't become familiar with all aircraft systems then you shouldn't be
> flying it alone in marginal weather.

And I'm sure every pilot follows that policy religiously. That's why
accidents never occur.

> Yes. One of the required skills for instrument flight is recovery from
> unusual attitudes. You close your eyes, your instructor tries to get you
> disoriented, puts the plane in an unusual attitude - usually either a
> steep spiral dive or a steep climb near stall. It's the "get you
> disoriented" part that got me sick - my instructor likes to give you a
> real roller coaster. The first recovery, I counted four really hard
> positive G pulls, a couple of hard negative G pushes,some hard slips and
> skids, and the stall horn went off a couple of times. The second recovery
> was about the same.

His technique sounds excessive.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Paul Tomblin writes:
>
>> Sounds like you know very little about what it means to pilot an
>> aircraft.
>
> Wait and see. Cirrus is doing very well.
>

Has "zip" to do with the man's point.

>> Part of checking out in a new aircraft is becoming familiar with *all*
>> aircraft systems - and you should do that in perfect weather. If you
>> haven't become familiar with all aircraft systems then you shouldn't be
>> flying it alone in marginal weather.
>
> And I'm sure every pilot follows that policy religiously. That's why
> accidents never occur.
>

Yes, by far most do. But you couldn't realize this having never flown.

>> Yes. One of the required skills for instrument flight is recovery from
>> unusual attitudes. You close your eyes, your instructor tries to get you
>> disoriented, puts the plane in an unusual attitude - usually either a
>> steep spiral dive or a steep climb near stall. It's the "get you
>> disoriented" part that got me sick - my instructor likes to give you a
>> real roller coaster. The first recovery, I counted four really hard
>> positive G pulls, a couple of hard negative G pushes,some hard slips and
>> skids, and the stall horn went off a couple of times. The second
>> recovery
>> was about the same.
>
> His technique sounds excessive.
>

Standard procedure with a good CFI.

Clueless as usual.

[Thomas Borchert]

Paul,

> Sounds like you know very little about what it means to pilot an aircraft.
>

Please! Not again! How can you possibly feed the idiot?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Paul Tomblin writes:
>
>> Usually when I trim the plane
>> correctly I don't need the altitude hold, so I hardly use it.
>
> What about using the autopilot to trim, and then turning it off? I do
> this in simulation, but only because the sim doesn't allow extremely
> precise trim adjustments (as far as I know).

You do thast because you're a fjukkwit.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Paul Tomblin writes:
>
>> Recent aircraft (like the Cirrus) have a switch that automatically
>> trims off all the control force that you or your autopilot are
>> holding.
>
> Sounds like aircraft will eventually go the way of cars, with only a
> few idiot-light indicators and perhaps an airspeed indicator.

then maybe you'll be able to fly!
nah.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Paul Tomblin writes:
>
>> Sounds like you know very little about what it means to pilot an
>> aircraft.
>
> Wait and see. Cirrus is doing very well.

You're an idiot.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
>> On the 182 (with G1000 KAP 140) we can doing full coupled approaches.
>> The autopilot takes over when the wheels leave the ground and I don't
>> kick it off until 200 feet. Full GPSS, etc.
>
> Doesn't that take some of the alleged fun out of flying a small airplane?
>

You're an idiot.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
>> I think you'll find that it is very odd for a high performance single
>> to not have some sort of an autopilot.
>
> That's reassuring. I wouldn't want to fly anything without an
> autopilot--

You couldn't fly anything, period.


Bertie

[Robert M. Gary]

On May 19, 6:41 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
> > I think you'll find that it is very odd for a high performance single
> > to not have some sort of an autopilot.
>
> That's reassuring. I wouldn't want to fly anything without an autopilot--a
> good one.

Well you won't find one of a J-3 cub or a Cessna 150. For short
distance flights I don't even turn on the autopilot I have. Its kind
of like cruise control.

> How much do autopilots for small aircraft cost? Do they have to be provided
> for at the factory, or can they be retrofitted to an aircraft?

There are some very simple ones that can be installed for around
$12,000. More complete autopilots for a single engine will run to
around $50,000 installed.

-Robert

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
>> I think you'll find that it is very odd for a high performance single
>> to not have some sort of an autopilot.
>
> That's reassuring. I wouldn't want to fly anything without an
> autopilot--a good one.
>
> How much do autopilots for small aircraft cost? Do they have to be
> provided for at the factory, or can they be retrofitted to an
> aircraft?
>
>> The plane has no "off" switch for the autopilot because it was
>> certified as "full time". There is a red interrupt button on the yoke
>> but the second you release it, the autopilot is back in control. Some
>> pilots put rubber bands on the button to hold it down when they don't
>> want it.
>
> I don't like that idea at all. Even airliners have positive
> disconnects for the autopilot.

Not all moron, you're a fjukkwit.


Bertie

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>
> That's reassuring. I wouldn't want to fly anything without an
> autopilot--a
> good one.

You couldn't fly your desk without an autopilot, moron.

>
> How much do autopilots for small aircraft cost? Do they have to be
> provided
> for at the factory, or can they be retrofitted to an aircraft?

Do you just talk to hear your head rattle?

>
> I don't like that idea at all. Even airliners have positive disconnects
> for
> the autopilot.
>

I'll alert the media and the FAA. We'll ground everything without a
disconnect at once!

[Morgans[_2_]]

> You're an idiot.

Time for someone to insult his mental state, isn't it?

I knew it was too good to last.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

"Morgans" > wrote in news:eY_3i.16$Oe2.9
@newsfe06.lga:

>> You're an idiot.
>
> Time for someone to insult his mental state, isn't it?
>
> I knew it was too good to last.
>

And you were right! I knew he'd be back. K00ks never go far.


bertie

[Chris Nielsen]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
>> I think you'll find that it is very odd for a high performance single
>> to not have some sort of an autopilot.
>
> That's reassuring. I wouldn't want to fly anything without an autopilot--a
> good one.

Why?? What difference does it make? For your average light aircraft
like I fly the autopilot is of limited use anyway. I use heading mode
infrequently at best.


>
> How much do autopilots for small aircraft cost? Do they have to be provided
> for at the factory, or can they be retrofitted to an aircraft?
>

There's a ****load of stuff that makes up an autopilot, apparently.
It's not just a control in front of you, there's all sorts of other junk
scattered round the plane..

>> The plane has no "off" switch for the autopilot because it was
>> certified as "full time". There is a red interrupt button on the yoke
>> but the second you release it, the autopilot is back in control. Some
>> pilots put rubber bands on the button to hold it down when they don't
>> want it.
>
> I don't like that idea at all. Even airliners have positive disconnects for
> the autopilot.
>


It does sound a bit strange, but as far as I am concerned you would have
to experience it to actually judge that.

[Mxsmanic]

Chris Nielsen writes:

> Why?? What difference does it make?

You never know when having something to fly the plane for you for a few
minutes (or longer) might come in handy. Additionally, on trips of any
length, I'm pretty sure I'd get very tired of holding the controls all the
time.

For IFR flights, especially alone, an autopilot would be invaluable. It would
also be extremely useful in congested airspace when there are many other
things to do besides flying the plane.

At least that's how I see it. I like to have lots of options.

> It does sound a bit strange, but as far as I am concerned you would have
> to experience it to actually judge that.

Mooney aircraft seem to be unusual in many respects. Their Web site makes
them look like they build racing aircraft.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...

>
> You never know when having something to fly the plane for you for a few
> minutes (or longer) might come in handy. Additionally, on trips of any
> length, I'm pretty sure I'd get very tired of holding the controls all the
> time.

Just demonstrates how little you know. Maybe you should actually try flying
an airplane sometime.

>
> For IFR flights, especially alone, an autopilot would be invaluable. It
> would
> also be extremely useful in congested airspace when there are many other
> things to do besides flying the plane.

Na, do that at home before you leave. Not the right group to give pointers
on that subject anyway.

>
> At least that's how I see it. I like to have lots of options.

More like a lot of strange ideas.

>
>> It does sound a bit strange, but as far as I am concerned you would have
>> to experience it to actually judge that.

It's usually best if you experience most anything before you judge it. Odd
concept to you I'm sure, but someday you might grow up and find it to be
true.

>
> Mooney aircraft seem to be unusual in many respects. Their Web site makes
> them look like they build racing aircraft.
>

You seem to be unusual in every respect. I hear your website makes you like
like an absolute dope.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Chris Nielsen writes:
>
>> Why?? What difference does it make?
>
> You never know when having something to fly the plane for you for a
> few minutes (or longer) might come in handy.

You don;t fly fjukkwit. Therefore you are talking out of your ass.


And they';re called airplanes, retard.

Bertie


Berti e

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

"Maxwell" > wrote in
m:

>
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>> You never know when having something to fly the plane for you for a
>> few minutes (or longer) might come in handy. Additionally, on trips
>> of any length, I'm pretty sure I'd get very tired of holding the
>> controls all the time.
>
> Just demonstrates how little you know. Maybe you should actually try
> flying an airplane sometime.
>

Do you really want him in a perfectly good airplane?
Have you no respect for flying macines?

Bertie

[chris[_1_]]

On May 23, 7:18 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Chris Nielsen writes:
> > Why?? What difference does it make?
>
> You never know when having something to fly the plane for you for a few
> minutes (or longer) might come in handy. Additionally, on trips of any
> length, I'm pretty sure I'd get very tired of holding the controls all the
> time.
>
> For IFR flights, especially alone, an autopilot would be invaluable. It would
> also be extremely useful in congested airspace when there are many other
> things to do besides flying the plane.
>
> At least that's how I see it. I like to have lots of options.

Well I don't know **** about IFR and don't claim to. Autopilot for a
small plane VFR, i.e. Warrior, is just about pointless for short trips
at least. Yeah, it's nice to be able to hold heading but you still
got to keep the bug in the right place so it flies where you want. And
you gotta trim it up nicely before engaging it or you end up with a
constant bank. And you got to maintain your altitude yourself. On
the Archers I have flown it takes so long to get the thing trimmed up
nicely, especially elevator trim, that for a short trip it's more
trouble than it's worth.

I did a couple of 300nm trips recently in a 172 without autopilot or
rudder trim and found I didn't miss the autopilot one little bit.
Missed the rudder trim though, especially since it was 180hp and
whenever you had a high cruise power setting you had to hold constant
pressure on the rudder. And the ball on 172s swings from side to side
in turbulence, I've found, so it makes it harder to know how much
rudder to hold. Oh, and the because of uneven loading (me sitting on
one side) it was leaning to one side the whole trip - had to hold
right aileron the whole way. Autopilot would not have helped me
very much.

>
> > It does sound a bit strange, but as far as I am concerned you would have
> > to experience it to actually judge that.
>
> Mooney aircraft seem to be unusual in many respects. Their Web site makes
> them look like they build racing aircraft.

They're known for being fast, that's for sure

[Maxwell]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
. 130...
>
> Do you really want him in a perfectly good airplane?
> Have you no respect for flying macines?
>

Ah, we both know it's like asking a dog not to bark.

[Mxsmanic]

Maxwell writes:

> I hear your website makes you like like an absolute dope.

Why not visit it and find out for sure? It's best not to rely on hearsay.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

"Maxwell" > wrote in news:46539f8a$0$13704
:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> . 130...
>>
>> Do you really want him in a perfectly good airplane?
>> Have you no respect for flying macines?
>>
>
> Ah, we both know it's like asking a dog not to bark.
>

Point taken


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Maxwell writes:
>
>> I hear your website makes you like like an absolute dope.
>
> Why not visit it and find out for sure? It's best not to rely on
> hearsay.

I've alwyas heard **** doesn't taste nice as well.


Bertie

[James M. Knox]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> You never know when having something to fly the plane for you for a
> few minutes (or longer) might come in handy. Additionally, on trips
> of any length, I'm pretty sure I'd get very tired of holding the
> controls all the time.

It's *usually* not that bad. In good weather, with fairly stable air,
it's less effort than driving a car for hours on end - much less. And
frankly, the little extra work of controlling the yoke helps keep you
awake on long flights. [The danger is not so much actually falling
asleep, as getting into the flight equivalent of "highway hypnosis."]

> For IFR flights, especially alone, an autopilot would be invaluable.
> It would also be extremely useful in congested airspace when there are
> many other things to do besides flying the plane.

Very true. While the pilot should ALWAYS be able to complete the flight
flying manually, a working autopilot on a single-pilot IFR flight can be
a BIG work saver. There is a lot of other things to do in the cockpit:
Charts to find and unfold/fold, approach plates to brief, fixes and
routing changes to study, radios and instruments to adjust,... and of
course on long flights, lunch!

An autopilot, even a simple wing leveler or another set of hands to find
or hold stuff for you, can really make life better.

> Mooney aircraft seem to be unusual in many respects. Their Web site
> makes them look like they build racing aircraft.

Traditionally they built fast aircraft for the power. Not the fastest
airplanes in the air, but certainly the fastest on the fuel flow. Now
days they have gotten a bit away from that and are pushing higher
powered turbocharged models. They are still among the most efficient
production aircraft.

Their full-time wing-leveler autopilot (standard equipment) was, for
years, touted as a significant safety feature.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1300 Koenig Lane West fax 512-371-5716
Suite 200
Austin, Tx 78756
-----------------------------------------------

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell writes:
>
>> I hear your website makes you like like an absolute dope.
>
> Why not visit it and find out for sure? It's best not to rely on hearsay.
>

No thanks, I get quite enough of you clueless blather right here.

I can't imagine an entire website dedicated to it, a virtual electronic
stockyards of e-manure.