Transponders Above Class C Airspace

[Jim Vincent]

A recent discussion on transponders in gliders brought up the issue of a
transponder in Class C airspace. Recognizing that gliders are not required
to have one since they don't have electrical systems, the issue was whether
one is required if you are above towered airspace, such as Class C.

I had been told second hand that a transponder is required within the
lateral boundaries. A friend took the initiative and called the local FSDO
for clarification. While a transponder is not required, it is a good idea,
and it is an especially good idea to contact the tower well beforehand on
the off chance of a descent in to the airspace.


A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to
interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a transponder is
required? What is your personal policy and understanding of the reg? If
the consensus is that a transponder is required, should associations such as
the SSA for badges and the OLC ding accordingly?

[Marc Ramsey]

Jim Vincent wrote:
> A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to
> interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a transponder is
> required? What is your personal policy and understanding of the reg? If
> the consensus is that a transponder is required, should associations such as
> the SSA for badges and the OLC ding accordingly?

I think 91.215(b) makes it pretty clear that a transponder is required:

(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the
lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for
an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL

Marc

[Marc Ramsey]

Marc Ramsey wrote:
> Jim Vincent wrote:
>> A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to
>> interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a
>> transponder is required? What is your personal policy and
>> understanding of the reg? If the consensus is that a transponder is
>> required, should associations such as the SSA for badges and the OLC
>> ding accordingly?
>
> I think 91.215(b) makes it pretty clear that a transponder is required:
>
> (4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the
> lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for
> an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL

I didn't fully qualify this, above 10,000 feet MSL a transponder is not
required, even if you are within the lateral boundaries of B or C
airspace...

Marc

[BT]

91.215 (b)(4) states that all aircraft operating above Class B and C
airspace up to 10,000MSL require transponders.
The "glider exemption" described in 91.215(b)(3)(ii) states a glider (no
factory electrical generation system) can operate without a transponder
within 30nm of Class B airspace as long at they operate below the ceiling of
Class B or Class C airspace or 10,000MSL WHICH EVER IS LOWER.

Most ClassB in the US go up to 10,000MSL, so that would be moot, but there
are a few that do not, LAS for example. There is talk of lowering the PHX to
9,000MSL.

The way 91.215(b)(iii) is worded, raises a question. There are many Class C
airspace designations well outside the 30nm ModeC veil associated with Class
B airspace. Can one legally fly above these Class C areas with no
transponder?

BT

"Jim Vincent" > wrote in message
...
>A recent discussion on transponders in gliders brought up the issue of a
>transponder in Class C airspace. Recognizing that gliders are not required
>to have one since they don't have electrical systems, the issue was whether
>one is required if you are above towered airspace, such as Class C.
>
> I had been told second hand that a transponder is required within the
> lateral boundaries. A friend took the initiative and called the local
> FSDO for clarification. While a transponder is not required, it is a good
> idea, and it is an especially good idea to contact the tower well
> beforehand on the off chance of a descent in to the airspace.
>
>
> A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to
> interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a transponder is
> required? What is your personal policy and understanding of the reg? If
> the consensus is that a transponder is required, should associations such
> as the SSA for badges and the OLC ding accordingly?
>

[Papa3]

On May 7, 7:55 pm, "BT" > wrote:
> 91.215 (b)(4) states that all aircraft operating above Class B and C
> airspace up to 10,000MSL require transponders.
> The "glider exemption" described in 91.215(b)(3)(ii) states a glider (no
> factory electrical generation system) can operate without a transponder
> within 30nm of Class B airspace as long at they operate below the ceiling of
> Class B or Class C airspace or 10,000MSL WHICH EVER IS LOWER.
>
> Most ClassB in the US go up to 10,000MSL, so that would be moot, but there
> are a few that do not, LAS for example. There is talk of lowering the PHX to
> 9,000MSL.
>
> The way 91.215(b)(iii) is worded, raises a question. There are many Class C
> airspace designations well outside the 30nm ModeC veil associated with Class
> B airspace. Can one legally fly above these Class C areas with no
> transponder?
>
> BT
>
> "Jim Vincent" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> >A recent discussion on transponders in gliders brought up the issue of a
> >transponder in Class C airspace. Recognizing that gliders are not required
> >to have one since they don't have electrical systems, the issue was whether
> >one is required if you are above towered airspace, such as Class C.
>
> > I had been told second hand that a transponder is required within the
> > lateral boundaries. A friend took the initiative and called the local
> > FSDO for clarification. While a transponder is not required, it is a good
> > idea, and it is an especially good idea to contact the tower well
> > beforehand on the off chance of a descent in to the airspace.
>
> > A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to
> > interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a transponder is
> > required? What is your personal policy and understanding of the reg? If
> > the consensus is that a transponder is required, should associations such
> > as the SSA for badges and the OLC ding accordingly?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I've overflown Allentown Class C airspace on several occasions without
a transponder. I've spoken with both the FSDO and the Tower Boss, and
their interpretation was that I can do this as long as I complied with
the ATC Authorized Deviations bit which comes near the end of
91.215. In practice, this meant calling them up on the phone on the
day of a planned record flight prior to takeoff. This was followed
with a radio call while still a good 20 miles or so outside their
airspace.

On two occaisions, their "body english" on the radio was along the
lines of "yeah.. whatever." On the third, the guy was all gung-ho and
gave me traffic advisories every few minutes (to the point where it
was almost embarassing). He wished me good luck after clearing their
lateral boundaries and asked me to call in with results !

YMMV.

P3

[Marc Ramsey]

BT wrote:
> 91.215 (b)(4) states that all aircraft operating above Class B and C
> airspace up to 10,000MSL require transponders.
> The "glider exemption" described in 91.215(b)(3)(ii) states a glider (no
> factory electrical generation system) can operate without a transponder
> within 30nm of Class B airspace as long at they operate below the ceiling of
> Class B or Class C airspace or 10,000MSL WHICH EVER IS LOWER.

Of course, there is a second "glider exemption" in 91.215:

(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally
certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not
subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or
glider—
(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of
Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and
below 2,500 feet above the surface; and

> Most ClassB in the US go up to 10,000MSL, so that would be moot, but there
> are a few that do not, LAS for example. There is talk of lowering the PHX to
> 9,000MSL.
>
> The way 91.215(b)(iii) is worded, raises a question. There are many Class C
> airspace designations well outside the 30nm ModeC veil associated with Class
> B airspace. Can one legally fly above these Class C areas with no
> transponder?

Reno Class C is surface to 8400 feet MSL, without transponders we
routinely overfly it above 10,000 feet, but do not fly within the
boundaries and below 10,000 feet (or below 8400 feet with a transponder)
without permission from Reno tower. Of course, we are actively
encouraging people to get transponders, not so much for overflights, but
for the critical traffic areas outside of the boundaries of Class C...

Marc

[John Scott]

Our club is near a Class C airport. In fact there is a notch in the Class C
airspace, so that it is not above our airport. The top of the Class C
airspace is 10,200' MSL. We shouldn't need transponders because we are 1)
exempt as gliders and 2) above 10,000 MSL when above the Class C. Is the
suggestion here that we should contact Approach when we intend to overfly
the Class C?

John Scott

[Tuno]

My experience mirrors P3's.

Had a flight a few years ago where I had to overfly the El Paso Class
C. Phone call the day before, radio contact 10 miles out and all the
way across. They were very polite and helpful.

I have a new glider coming in a few months and I'm really torn on
whether to get a transponder ... my first glider didn't have one, my
current one does, but I'm not satisfied it's worth the expense and
power drain, which is a real concern on long flights ... by the
current regs I do not have the option of leaving it turned off if I
have battery power.

2NO

[BT]

most interesting location.. what airport that the Class C is so high?
Sounds like Colorado? Please let us know

BT

"John Scott" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> Our club is near a Class C airport. In fact there is a notch in the Class
> C airspace, so that it is not above our airport. The top of the Class C
> airspace is 10,200' MSL. We shouldn't need transponders because we are 1)
> exempt as gliders and 2) above 10,000 MSL when above the Class C. Is the
> suggestion here that we should contact Approach when we intend to overfly
> the Class C?
>
> John Scott
>

[BT]

ahh yes Mark... the above 10,000MSL exemption..
I kept my remarks to the "below 10KMSL" thinking
BT

"Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
. ..
> BT wrote:
>> 91.215 (b)(4) states that all aircraft operating above Class B and C
>> airspace up to 10,000MSL require transponders.
>> The "glider exemption" described in 91.215(b)(3)(ii) states a glider (no
>> factory electrical generation system) can operate without a transponder
>> within 30nm of Class B airspace as long at they operate below the ceiling
>> of Class B or Class C airspace or 10,000MSL WHICH EVER IS LOWER.
>
> Of course, there is a second "glider exemption" in 91.215:
>
> (5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally
> certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not
> subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or
> glider—
> (i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of
> Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below
> 2,500 feet above the surface; and
>
>> Most ClassB in the US go up to 10,000MSL, so that would be moot, but
>> there are a few that do not, LAS for example. There is talk of lowering
>> the PHX to 9,000MSL.
>>
>> The way 91.215(b)(iii) is worded, raises a question. There are many Class
>> C airspace designations well outside the 30nm ModeC veil associated with
>> Class B airspace. Can one legally fly above these Class C areas with no
>> transponder?
>
> Reno Class C is surface to 8400 feet MSL, without transponders we
> routinely overfly it above 10,000 feet, but do not fly within the
> boundaries and below 10,000 feet (or below 8400 feet with a transponder)
> without permission from Reno tower. Of course, we are actively
> encouraging people to get transponders, not so much for overflights, but
> for the critical traffic areas outside of the boundaries of Class C...
>
> Marc

[John Scott]

Colorado Springs

John

[Mike Schumann]

If you run the transponder off of a seperate battery, you shouldn't have a
problem if it runs dry and the transponder shuts down (unless you are in an
area where a transponder is required).

If I owned my own glider, a transponder would be close to the top of my
priority list. (Murphy's law: If you have one, you won't need it).

Mike Schumann

"Tuno" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> My experience mirrors P3's.
>
> Had a flight a few years ago where I had to overfly the El Paso Class
> C. Phone call the day before, radio contact 10 miles out and all the
> way across. They were very polite and helpful.
>
> I have a new glider coming in a few months and I'm really torn on
> whether to get a transponder ... my first glider didn't have one, my
> current one does, but I'm not satisfied it's worth the expense and
> power drain, which is a real concern on long flights ... by the
> current regs I do not have the option of leaving it turned off if I
> have battery power.
>
> 2NO
>



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Eric Greenwell]

Tuno wrote:
> My experience mirrors P3's.
>
> Had a flight a few years ago where I had to overfly the El Paso Class
> C. Phone call the day before, radio contact 10 miles out and all the
> way across. They were very polite and helpful.
>
> I have a new glider coming in a few months and I'm really torn on
> whether to get a transponder ... my first glider didn't have one, my
> current one does, but I'm not satisfied it's worth the expense and
> power drain, which is a real concern on long flights ... by the
> current regs I do not have the option of leaving it turned off if I
> have battery power.

I know the FAA doesn't expect you to leave your transponder on until you
kill the battery, thereby losing the transponder AND your radio. If this
is the only regulation you knowingly break, the FAA and your fellow
pilots will think you are a saint! Better a transponder part of the time
than no transponder at all.

If the decision is really causing you heartburn, order the glider with a
transponder antenna installed (it's a lot cheaper and easier that way),
but no transponder. Put a Zaon MRX transponder detector or similar on
top of the glare sheild when you get the glider. It does a good job of
alerting a pilot to transponder equipped aircraft, and if you later
decide you want that transponder after all, the MRX still continue to
alert you, a job a transponder doesn't do.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Scott[_1_]]

However, if I recall (don't have a FAR/AIM book in front of me), above
10,000 MSL is Class A airspace and it does require a transponder, yes?

Scott


Marc Ramsey wrote:
> Marc Ramsey wrote:

>>> ding accordingly?
>>
>>
>> I think 91.215(b) makes it pretty clear that a transponder is required:
>>
>> (4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the
>> lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated
>> for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL
>
>
> I didn't fully qualify this, above 10,000 feet MSL a transponder is not
> required, even if you are within the lateral boundaries of B or C
> airspace...
>
> Marc
>

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

[Scott[_1_]]

Oops, my bad. Class A starts at 18,000 MSL. Doesn't matter for me...my
little (powered) putt putt struggles to get above about 5000 MSL ;)

Scott


Scott wrote:

> However, if I recall (don't have a FAR/AIM book in front of me), above
> 10,000 MSL is Class A airspace and it does require a transponder, yes?
>
> Scott
>
>
> Marc Ramsey wrote:
>
>> Marc Ramsey wrote:
>
>
>>>> ding accordingly?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think 91.215(b) makes it pretty clear that a transponder is required:
>>>
>>> (4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the
>>> lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated
>>> for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL
>>
>>
>>
>> I didn't fully qualify this, above 10,000 feet MSL a transponder is
>> not required, even if you are within the lateral boundaries of B or C
>> airspace...
>>
>> Marc
>>
>

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

[Jim Vincent]

"Papa3" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On May 7, 7:55 pm, "BT" > wrote:
>> 91.215 (b)(4) states that all aircraft operating above Class B and C
>> airspace up to 10,000MSL require transponders.
>> The "glider exemption" described in 91.215(b)(3)(ii) states a glider (no
>> factory electrical generation system) can operate without a transponder
>> within 30nm of Class B airspace as long at they operate below the ceiling
>> of
>> Class B or Class C airspace or 10,000MSL WHICH EVER IS LOWER.
>>
>> Most ClassB in the US go up to 10,000MSL, so that would be moot, but
>> there
>> are a few that do not, LAS for example. There is talk of lowering the PHX
>> to
>> 9,000MSL.
>>
>> The way 91.215(b)(iii) is worded, raises a question. There are many Class
>> C
>> airspace designations well outside the 30nm ModeC veil associated with
>> Class
>> B airspace. Can one legally fly above these Class C areas with no
>> transponder?
>>
>> BT
>>
>> "Jim Vincent" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> >A recent discussion on transponders in gliders brought up the issue of a
>> >transponder in Class C airspace. Recognizing that gliders are not
>> >required
>> >to have one since they don't have electrical systems, the issue was
>> >whether
>> >one is required if you are above towered airspace, such as Class C.
>>
>> > I had been told second hand that a transponder is required within the
>> > lateral boundaries. A friend took the initiative and called the local
>> > FSDO for clarification. While a transponder is not required, it is a
>> > good
>> > idea, and it is an especially good idea to contact the tower well
>> > beforehand on the off chance of a descent in to the airspace.
>>
>> > A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to
>> > interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a transponder
>> > is
>> > required? What is your personal policy and understanding of the reg?
>> > If
>> > the consensus is that a transponder is required, should associations
>> > such
>> > as the SSA for badges and the OLC ding accordingly?- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I've overflown Allentown Class C airspace on several occasions without
> a transponder. I've spoken with both the FSDO and the Tower Boss, and
> their interpretation was that I can do this as long as I complied with
> the ATC Authorized Deviations bit which comes near the end of
> 91.215. In practice, this meant calling them up on the phone on the
> day of a planned record flight prior to takeoff. This was followed
> with a radio call while still a good 20 miles or so outside their
> airspace.
>
> On two occaisions, their "body english" on the radio was along the
> lines of "yeah.. whatever." On the third, the guy was all gung-ho and
> gave me traffic advisories every few minutes (to the point where it
> was almost embarassing). He wished me good luck after clearing their
> lateral boundaries and asked me to call in with results !
>
> YMMV.
>
> P3


P3, it was the Allentown airspace I was thinking of. A friend was flying
back from Grimes and overflew the Class C, staying just a few hundred feet
above the airspace. I agree with your recommendation that it would be
prudent to contact ATC before flying over the airspace.

[CindyASK]

Gents:

For those who are SSA members, you may log in to www.ssa.org, and use
the link
in the upper left corner to go to some artwork illustrating the FAR
91.215 airspace
and requirements. Feel free to down load, print and post the pictures
on a club house wall.
You can also find it through Member News or the Government Liaison
page.

If it keeps folks from blundering, I will have done some good.

And yes, you may always ask for permission for deviations from FARs,
and done so knowledgeably,
most ATC folks are willing to help, as much as they are able.
Overflight of Class C has no
communication requirement, but it does have an equipment requirement
below 10,000 msl.
And, "falling into the top" of Class C with little or no notice to ATC
may be frowned upon.

Personally, I had a tower supervisor tell me that I had no need for a
waiver for a non-TXP glider
for overflight of C below 10k. After I educated him gently, he said
he couldn't
be bothered to write a waiver, and just to not tell them I was
there...... the job title doesn't
assure that they understand regs beyond normal day-to-day uses.

And for Eric G., as often as he and I agree, in this case I personally
disagree.
To avoid heartburn and grumpy FAA folks, install more battery
capacity.
If you are flying around Class A/B/C airspace, you wanted those
systems
for that access, so please supply them well.

A glider pilot shouldn't plan to beg off on no electrons due to being
"slower on course, so I didn't have enough amp hours." To me that
smacks
of "Oh poor me," rather than projecting responsible airmanship. I'm
not throwing
rocks at anyone, just looking at how we view our options.

Cindy B


>
> P3, it was the Allentown airspace I was thinking of. A friend was flying
> back from Grimes and overflew the Class C, staying just a few hundred feet
> above the airspace. I agree with your recommendation that it would be
> prudent to contact ATC before flying over the airspace.

[Eric Greenwell]

CindyASK wrote:

>
> And for Eric G., as often as he and I agree, in this case I personally
> disagree. To avoid heartburn and grumpy FAA folks, install more battery
> capacity. If you are flying around Class A/B/C airspace, you wanted those
> systems for that access, so please supply them well.

Sufficient battery capacity is the best answer, but I've seen several
pilots procrastinate on a transponder installation because of their
worries about battery life and the "gotta have it on" regulation. My
intent is to encourage these pilots to install a transponder sooner
rather than later, even if they can't leave it on all the time with
their current battery capacity.

If you think you need a transponder, install it now, even if you haven't
figured out how to get more batteries into the glider. By using it
around the airspace where it's needed, you and others will be safer; in
the meantime, you can deal with the design, installation, and approval
issues (and cost) of another (or larger) battery box.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Tony Verhulst]

heir current battery capacity.
>
> If you think you need a transponder, install it now, even if you haven't
> figured out how to get more batteries into the glider. By using it
> around the airspace where it's needed, you and others will be safer; in
> the meantime, you can deal with the design, installation, and approval
> issues (and cost) of another (or larger) battery box.

Any LS6 drivers out there with tips on how and where to install a
battery box? There really is no good place as far as I can tell.

Tony V. LS6-b "6N"

[Mike125]

Its curious to me that there is an excemption while within the
(presumeably) more crowded airspace but not while above it.

Mike

[toad]

On May 15, 10:54 am, Mike125 > wrote:
> Its curious to me that there is an excemption while within the
> (presumeably) more crowded airspace but not while above it.
>
> Mike

There is NO exception within Class B or C airspace, by regulation you
must have a transponder operating. The only exceptions are the 30 nm
"Mode C veil" defined by 91.215(b)(3) and above 10,000 feet MSL.

Todd