Been ripped by AS&S deceptive freight pricing???

[Kenny Danielson]

On a recent shipment AS&S charged $55 for a shipment that should have cost
approx $31-35 according to UPS. AS&S can't explain the charges nor admit
they are wrong. I suppose they feel UPS is mistaken.

Anyone else experience this deception?


Kenny Danielson, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho

[Larry]

Yes,
That's why I don't do "verbals" and I print a copy of the order for my
records so WHEN they try to overcharge, a quick letter to Visa fixes
everything!

Larry

"Kenny Danielson" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> On a recent shipment AS&S charged $55 for a shipment that should have cost
> approx $31-35 according to UPS. AS&S can't explain the charges nor admit
> they are wrong. I suppose they feel UPS is mistaken.
>
> Anyone else experience this deception?
>
>
> Kenny Danielson, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
>
>

[Paul Lee]

There are some who make that extra profit by gouging
on shipping. On a $1900 order and a company charged me
$30 for UPS ground shipping - about 5lbs. I complained and
they refunded $10.

There are some companies that are real honest with shipping:
Wicks Aircraft - often almost to the penny. Van's aircraft parts
they charged me only $4 for shipping a $1800 order UPS ground.

----------------------------------------------------------
Paul Lee, SQ2000 canard project: www.abri.com/sq2000


"Kenny Danielson" > wrote in message et>...
> On a recent shipment AS&S charged $55 for a shipment that should have cost
> approx $31-35 according to UPS. AS&S can't explain the charges nor admit
> they are wrong. I suppose they feel UPS is mistaken.
>
> Anyone else experience this deception?
>
>
> Kenny Danielson, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho

[Paul Lee]

From my invoice copies her is my list of comparitive shipping charges
by companies:

Lowest shipping charges:
------------------------
Vans aircraft - $4 handling charge
Wicks aircraft - at or near cost
Sacramento Sky Ranch (free)
Digi-Key - cost
foamresource.com - free
KLS Composites - free most time
Dynon Avionics - near cost
RST Engineering - near cost
Sky Ox - near cost
Southeast Aerospace - free

Medium:
-------
KRN Aviation
Chief Aircraft

High:
-----
Aircraft Spruce
Woolf Aircraft
Velocity
Eastern Avionics

-------------------
Note: USPS priority is really fast and cheap for
small items. But some companies will not ship via
USPS. Many of them insist on shipping by UPS with
no other choices.

----------------------------------------------------
Paul Lee, SQ2000 canard project: www.abri.com/sq2000

[Jim Weir]

For medium weight (1-4 pounds) parcels, FedEx ground is eating the competition
alive. We are gearing up to ship this way.

Jim


(Paul Lee)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->Note: USPS priority is really fast and cheap for
->small items. But some companies will not ship via
->USPS. Many of them insist on shipping by UPS with
->no other choices.

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Larry]

> There are some companies that are real honest with shipping:
It's not that difficult to put a script in the order page of your site that
goes to UPS and gets the actual shipping costs.

We just put one in www.BackWoodsMetalArt.com for one of our clients and they
are very happy with it.

Larry






"Paul Lee" > wrote in message
om...
> There are some who make that extra profit by gouging
> on shipping. On a $1900 order and a company charged me
> $30 for UPS ground shipping - about 5lbs. I complained and
> they refunded $10.
>
> There are some companies that are real honest with shipping:
> Wicks Aircraft - often almost to the penny. Van's aircraft parts
> they charged me only $4 for shipping a $1800 order UPS ground.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Paul Lee, SQ2000 canard project: www.abri.com/sq2000
>
>
> "Kenny Danielson" > wrote in message
et>...
> > On a recent shipment AS&S charged $55 for a shipment that should have
cost
> > approx $31-35 according to UPS. AS&S can't explain the charges nor admit
> > they are wrong. I suppose they feel UPS is mistaken.
> >
> > Anyone else experience this deception?
> >
> >
> > Kenny Danielson, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho

[Peter Dohm]

I tried, but the needle broke

Peter

Jim Weir wrote:
>
> Somebody wanna put the troll-o-meter on this for me?
>
> Jim
>
> "Richard Isakson" >
> shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
>
> ->"Jim Weir" wrote ...
> ->> For medium weight (1-4 pounds) parcels, FedEx ground is eating the
> ->competition
> ->> alive. We are gearing up to ship this way.
> ->
> ->... FLASH!! Weir endorses FedEx to reduce State Deficit! ...
> ->
> ->Is this just for the Governor's Offices or is it for the entire state
> ->system?
> ->
> ->Is this an official policy statement?
> ->
> ->Is FedEx donating to your candidacy?
> ->
> ->What's your relationship with the Chairman of FedEx?
> ->
> ->The press has a right to know!
> ->
> ->Mr Weir, what's your policy for heavier shipments?
> ->
> ->
> ->Rich
> ->
>
> Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
> VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
> http://www.rst-engr.com

[Model Flyer]

"Kenny Danielson" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Jim, I am considering action against such deception and I sincerely
wanted
> to know how extensive is this practice by AS&S. Unfortunately, I
have not
> saved the shipping details from the thousands of dollars I have
spent with
> AS&S and aside from the recent incident, have no data of my own to
determine
> the past history of the dishonesty. I am sorry it does not meet
with your
> approval....... No, not really.
>
> Kenny Danielson, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
>

Think you got stung! I had a 60 cent part sent to me via UPS, they
charged me $65, to cap it all my client never collected the
machine.:-(
--

..
--
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe
modelflyer at antispam dot net

Antispam trap in place


> "Jim Weir" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Somebody wanna put the troll-o-meter on this for me?
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > "Richard Isakson" >
> > shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
> >
> > ->"Jim Weir" wrote ...
> > ->> For medium weight (1-4 pounds) parcels, FedEx ground is
eating the
> > ->competition
> > ->> alive. We are gearing up to ship this way.
> > ->
> > ->... FLASH!! Weir endorses FedEx to reduce State Deficit! ...
> > ->
> > ->Is this just for the Governor's Offices or is it for the entire
state
> > ->system?
> > ->
> > ->Is this an official policy statement?
> > ->
> > ->Is FedEx donating to your candidacy?
> > ->
> > ->What's your relationship with the Chairman of FedEx?
> > ->
> > ->The press has a right to know!
> > ->
> > ->Mr Weir, what's your policy for heavier shipments?
> > ->
> > ->
> > ->Rich
> > ->
> >
> >
> > Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
> > VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
> > http://www.rst-engr.com
>
>

[tongaloa]

Deception? Did they say one thing, do another, and try to hide the facts?

Some companies ship free. Some add the amount they are charged, and some
figure the total cost, including packaging, labor, and paperwork. If a
company offers 'free' shipping and charges the same price for shipped
goods that it does for 'counter' customers, then the counter customers
are subsidizing the shipping. Also, the regional purchasers are
subsidizing shipping for the cross country customers...

I, and most people I know consider the delivered cost of the goods when
making decisions re: purchasing. Sure, Spruce is cheaper in Russia but
who wants to pay the freight?

-t


Kenny Danielson wrote:
> On a recent shipment AS&S charged $55 for a shipment that should have cost
> approx $31-35 according to UPS. AS&S can't explain the charges nor admit
> they are wrong. I suppose they feel UPS is mistaken.
>
> Anyone else experience this deception?
>
>
> Kenny Danielson, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
>
>

[Juan E Jimenez]

By this logic you could claim that anyone who has ever learned from his
mistakes is still as poor a businessman as he was then. Reduced to the
simple facts, you are agreeing with me while taking the opportunity to put
down Irwin, for no good reason. What's your point? That he figured out how
to run things in better ways? The same could easily be said of you, me or
anyone else who is or has been in business for himself, with some
exceptions, of course.

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
>
> Not how Jim Irwin runs his busines, now there's a laugh. Jim Irwin was by
> no stretch of the imagination the pinnicle of customer support. It is
> fortunately that AS&S has better people in those roles. It was Jim who
> countered legitimate complaints about AS&S here in the past by disclosing
> people's personal information on the group in an attempt to publicly
humiliate
> them into not telling the truth about his company.
>
> ASS certainly has done dunderheaded customer service things in the past
> like quibble over credits that were under $5. In the past they would
simply
> backorder things forever because the "computers" said it was in the
wearhouse
> but the order pullers couldn't find it and nobody would do anything to
resolve
> the issue without a bunch of complaints. They also would refuse to take
> order inquiries or other issues over the 800 numbers.
>
> Fortunately, they have gotten a whole lot better in the past. I was
quite pleasantly
> surprised at the fact that the ordering process was better, that they
actually quoted
> me a cheaper price than the online catalog on some items, that they now
will take
> inquiry calls on the 800 numbers and are trying to do better.

[Ron Natalie]

"Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message news:PW91b.218266$YN5.149392@sccrnsc01...
> By this logic you could claim that anyone who has ever learned from his
> mistakes is still as poor a businessman as he was then. Reduced to the
> simple facts, you are agreeing with me while taking the opportunity to put
> down Irwin, for no good reason. What's your point?

My point is your slavish devotion to certain types of people is hardly a
recommendation for their business. Your statement at face value is
"Jim Irwin wouldn't do that." is laughable because he has demonstrably
done so in the past. All you have to do is google the issue.

[Juan E Jimenez]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
>
> My point is your slavish devotion to certain types of people is hardly a
recommendation for their business.

Slavish devotion? Aren't you really talking about _your_ slavish fixation on
people whom you don't like and despite your best efforts to put down, are
much more succesful at their enterprises than you have been? Seems to me
like you have a personal problem best dealt with through your chaplain or
therapist, Natalie.

> Your statement at face value is
> "Jim Irwin wouldn't do that." is laughable because he has demonstrably
> done so in the past. All you have to do is google the issue.

From my personal experience, I am entitled to say that my opinion is that
Irwin would not do that. AS&S has gone way out of their way to make sure I
know they value the business I do with them. Every time there has been a
problem, it has been corrected almost immediately. I know many other
customers who feel exactly the same way about them. And so far, I haven't
seen a single instance of a problem with AS&S reported here that amounted to
much more than a case of whining by someone who has more of a chip on their
shoulder than a real reason to complain.

The fact remains that you agreed with me and only replied so you could take
a cheap shot at Irwin. That, IMO, is laughable behaviour.

Juan

[CW9371]

>FWIW, mypilotstore.com charged less than five bucks to UPS a kid's
>jacket and some knicknacks - very reasonable IMO. They don't sell
>spruce, though. :-D
>

You should get a commercial account with UPS or Fed ex, even if u do a very
large volume 5.00 is still partionally subsided by the store.

[Jerry Springer]

Juan E Jimenez wrote:

> By this logic you could claim that anyone who has ever learned from his
> mistakes is still as poor a businessman as he was then. Reduced to the
> simple facts, you are agreeing with me while taking the opportunity to put
> down Irwin, for no good reason. What's your point? That he figured out how
> to run things in better ways? The same could easily be said of you, me or
> anyone else who is or has been in business for himself, with some
> exceptions, of course.

Took him 15 years to learn how to run a business proprly, give me a
break. They well take everything they can get if they can.
Been there been shafted by ACS.

>
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Not how Jim Irwin runs his busines, now there's a laugh. Jim Irwin was by
>>no stretch of the imagination the pinnicle of customer support. It is
>>fortunately that AS&S has better people in those roles. It was Jim who
>>countered legitimate complaints about AS&S here in the past by disclosing
>>people's personal information on the group in an attempt to publicly
>
> humiliate
>
>>them into not telling the truth about his company.
>>
>>ASS certainly has done dunderheaded customer service things in the past
>>like quibble over credits that were under $5. In the past they would
>
> simply
>
>>backorder things forever because the "computers" said it was in the
>
> wearhouse
>
>>but the order pullers couldn't find it and nobody would do anything to
>
> resolve
>
>>the issue without a bunch of complaints. They also would refuse to take
>>order inquiries or other issues over the 800 numbers.
>>
>>Fortunately, they have gotten a whole lot better in the past. I was
>
> quite pleasantly
>
>>surprised at the fact that the ordering process was better, that they
>
> actually quoted
>
>>me a cheaper price than the online catalog on some items, that they now
>
> will take
>
>>inquiry calls on the 800 numbers and are trying to do better.
>
>
>

[Ernest Christley]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> "Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message news:cl91b.162998$cF.57206@rwcrnsc53...
>
>
>>As to the $55 for a $31-$35 shipment, I doubt very much they would not be
>>able to explain the charges. That is not the way Jim Irwin runs his
>>business. There must be something else not disclosed here.
>
>
> Not how Jim Irwin runs his busines, now there's a laugh. Jim Irwin was by

Regardless of how he would run his business, I just got my order from
Dillsburg. I ordered 2pc of 1.25x.035x8ft and 3 pc of 1.5x.035x8ft, all
4130 tube. He left out 2pc of the 1.5, so I only got 3pc of steel. The
cost of the tube was $61.84, and "Shipping & Handling" was $30.21.

I thought the shipping was excessive, but it WAS rather large tubing.

I called to order the rest of what I need, figuring I might get a break
on the shipping of the extra since the order was screwed up. The guy
was immediately argumentative, telling me very emphatically that I was
wrong and that he shipped the correct thing. I said, "thank you", very
politely and hung up.

Pulled up the AS&S website and ordered about $300 worth of stuff,
including the tube that I would have bought from Dillsburg. "Shipping &
Handling" was $22.95.

I've always recieved good service from AS&S, and their customer support
has been polite and responsive to the few problems that I have had.

My money will go to AS&S when appropriate in the future.
--
----Because I can----
http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org/
------------------------

[Juan E Jimenez]

Gee, Springer, you just described capitalism and SOP in this country. Is
that the source of your beef? <chuckle>

As to learning how to run a business, seems to me it took him a lot less
than that, since it's still around. If you ever own your own business at the
scale of Aircraft Spruce, maybe you'll understand. And yes, I have owned a
business that large. Years ago I was the sole stockholder and owner of one
of the largest food service companies in Puerto Rico, J.B. Commercial, Inc.,
with warehouses in Old San Juan near the ports, and hundreds of customers. I
had to deal on a weekly basis with people who thought that being a customer
entitled to ask for anything they thought we should give them, regardless of
how outlandish the request. No matter what I did, it wasn't good enough for
some of them and I was glad to see them get the heck out of my sight. I'm
glad I sold that.

"Jerry Springer" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> Juan E Jimenez wrote:
>
> > By this logic you could claim that anyone who has ever learned from his
> > mistakes is still as poor a businessman as he was then. Reduced to the
> > simple facts, you are agreeing with me while taking the opportunity to
put
> > down Irwin, for no good reason. What's your point? That he figured out
how
> > to run things in better ways? The same could easily be said of you, me
or
> > anyone else who is or has been in business for himself, with some
> > exceptions, of course.
>
> Took him 15 years to learn how to run a business proprly, give me a
> break. They well take everything they can get if they can.
> Been there been shafted by ACS.

[BD5ER]

>Pulled up the AS&S website and ordered about $300 worth of stuff,
>including the tube that I would have bought from Dillsburg. "Shipping &
>Handling" was $22.95.

So your the guy using up all of my AS+S luck <G>

In 20+ years I have never had a complete shipment. And in the old days the
freight on the backorders that dribbled in really added up. At least now they
pay the freight for some of the back ordered items but that still costs us all
because it's just added to the CODB column. My last order was 18% freight, (5
packages where 3 would have done just fine, no hazmats) and they still tried to
ding me freight on the backordered item - that I verified on the phone was in
stock - even with the note attached to not send anything if they didn't have
that one item.

Maybe someday they will figure out that the less money I have to give to UPS
and FedX the more I'll have to give to them to buy airplane parts? Their poor
shipping is costing THEM money.

Going to go back to Wicks........again. May try AS+S again in a year or 2.

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On 21 Aug 2003 23:52:35 GMT, (CW9371) wrote:

I've had "issues" myself with AS&S in the past, but to be honest,
things have gotten better. My advice, if you don't like dealing
with them, Wicks Aircraft Supply is always there (fantastic service/
prices since day-1 for me.....). To further my "confession", the
service between the two now is sort of equal from my point of view
(except for the fact that Wicks has, once again, been fantastic since
day-1). I simply shop the best price and/or availability now.

Bottom line: When there are more than (1) major supplier of
homebuilt/aviation parts around, and the service is acceptable
from both (or more), competition benefits the homebuilder / aircraft
rebuilder.

When I was mad at and having trouble with AS&S, I would buy what I
needed elsewhere regardless of price..... How's that old saying go?
It takes a whole ****load of "at-a-boys" to get rid of one "awe ****"!

Bela P. Havasreti

>>FWIW, mypilotstore.com charged less than five bucks to UPS a kid's
>>jacket and some knicknacks - very reasonable IMO. They don't sell
>>spruce, though. :-D
>>
>
>You should get a commercial account with UPS or Fed ex, even if u do a very
>large volume 5.00 is still partionally subsided by the store.

[Ron Natalie]

"BD5ER" > wrote in message ...
> >Pulled up the AS&S website and ordered about $300 worth of stuff,
> >including the tube that I would have bought from Dillsburg. "Shipping &
> >Handling" was $22.95.
>
> So your the guy using up all of my AS+S luck <G>
>
Just had my $3000 order from AS&S ****ed up. At Oshkosh was told that
the EDM-800 I ordered would ship immediately. Now almost three weeks later
I get a letter saying it will drop ship from JPI sometime at the end of the month.

[Kenny Danielson]

OK Juan, here's your first.

I called AS&S about this twice but they refused to even consider they had
made a mistake. In fact, they got a little unfriendly possibly because after
they referred me to the shipping page, I pointed out it didn't answer the
question and further they couldn't account for the price any other way. So,
after one email letter and two phone calls, the problem remains.

In the past I've been a supporter of AS&S and even chimed in when I thought
this newsgroup was piling on unfairly. I have also given AS&S the option of
matching a price on a big item available elsewhere. The small businessman
has my sympathies since I have also been a retailer. "Your employees can put
you out of business faster than the competition," goes a well-known quote. I
think Jim had better pay attention especially to his customers who will let
him know how his business is going from the viewpoint of the user.

Kenny Danielson, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho


"Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message
news:xsa1b.218298$Ho3.28456@sccrnsc03...


........................................... And so far, I haven't
> seen a single instance of a problem with AS&S reported here that amounted
to
> much more than a case of whining by someone who has more of a chip on
their
> shoulder than a real reason to
complain......................................

[[email protected]]

FedEx Ground has a new delivery policy here in Huntsville Alabama. If
you live outside of the city, which I do by 1 mile, then they will not
deliver until they have nearly a full load coming that way.

The last FedEx ground package required 11 days to get to me. Their
web page says six days max. The internet said it supposedly rode
around on the truck for five days because there was no one here to
receive it which was total bull crap. I finally got on the phone and
they said they would deliver the next day. It did not show up the
next day so I got on the phone again and did not take their promise to
deliver the next day for an answer. After being on the phone for 15
minutes the package was located at the local fright office where it
had been for 5 days. I drove over there and picked it up.

I got the real story from a UPS driver a few days later. It
seems that UPS tried to do the same bone headed thing a couple of
years ago with the result that they lost customers and stopped that
policy. Now it is FedEx's turn to learn.

John

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:39:52 -0700, Jim Weir > wrote:

>For medium weight (1-4 pounds) parcels, FedEx ground is eating the competition
>alive. We are gearing up to ship this way.
>
>Jim
>
>
(Paul Lee)
>shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
>
>->Note: USPS priority is really fast and cheap for
>->small items. But some companies will not ship via
>->USPS. Many of them insist on shipping by UPS with
>->no other choices.
>
>Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
>VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
>http://www.rst-engr.com

[BD5ER]

> The internet said it supposedly rode
>around on the truck for five days because there was no one here to
>receive it which was total bull crap.

Sounds like our FedX ground, and I'm in the city limits. They still can't find
my shop (2 ft tall address, one block long street, no North, South, Way, Blvd,
RD etc.).

The "regular" FedX here is first rate. Why the disparity I can't say.

[Juan E Jimenez]

Did you bring this matter up with Jim?

"Kenny Danielson" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> OK Juan, here's your first.
>
> I called AS&S about this twice but they refused to even consider they had
> made a mistake. In fact, they got a little unfriendly possibly because
after
> they referred me to the shipping page, I pointed out it didn't answer the
> question and further they couldn't account for the price any other way.
So,
> after one email letter and two phone calls, the problem remains.
>
> In the past I've been a supporter of AS&S and even chimed in when I
thought
> this newsgroup was piling on unfairly. I have also given AS&S the option
of
> matching a price on a big item available elsewhere. The small businessman
> has my sympathies since I have also been a retailer. "Your employees can
put
> you out of business faster than the competition," goes a well-known quote.
I
> think Jim had better pay attention especially to his customers who will
let
> him know how his business is going from the viewpoint of the user.
>
> Kenny Danielson, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
>
>
> "Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message
> news:xsa1b.218298$Ho3.28456@sccrnsc03...
>
>
> .......................................... And so far, I haven't
> > seen a single instance of a problem with AS&S reported here that
amounted
> to
> > much more than a case of whining by someone who has more of a chip on
> their
> > shoulder than a real reason to
> complain......................................
>
>

[Kenny Danielson]

Wasn't able to reach him personally.

"Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message
news:sVW1b.183267$Oz4.49306@rwcrnsc54...
> Did you bring this matter up with Jim?
>
> "Kenny Danielson" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> > OK Juan, here's your first.
> >
> > I called AS&S about this twice but they refused to even consider they
had
> > made a mistake. In fact, they got a little unfriendly possibly because
> after
> > they referred me to the shipping page, I pointed out it didn't answer
the
> > question and further they couldn't account for the price any other way.
> So,
> > after one email letter and two phone calls, the problem remains.
> >
> > In the past I've been a supporter of AS&S and even chimed in when I
> thought
> > this newsgroup was piling on unfairly. I have also given AS&S the option
> of
> > matching a price on a big item available elsewhere. The small
businessman
> > has my sympathies since I have also been a retailer. "Your employees can
> put
> > you out of business faster than the competition," goes a well-known
quote.
> I
> > think Jim had better pay attention especially to his customers who will
> let
> > him know how his business is going from the viewpoint of the user.
> >
> > Kenny Danielson, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
> >
> >
> > "Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message
> > news:xsa1b.218298$Ho3.28456@sccrnsc03...
> >
> >
> > .......................................... And so far, I haven't
> > > seen a single instance of a problem with AS&S reported here that
> amounted
> > to
> > > much more than a case of whining by someone who has more of a chip on
> > their
> > > shoulder than a real reason to
> > complain......................................
> >
> >
>
>

[Juan E Jimenez]

So you didn't try email...

"Kenny Danielson" > wrote in message
k.net...
> Wasn't able to reach him personally.
>
> "Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message
> news:sVW1b.183267$Oz4.49306@rwcrnsc54...
> > Did you bring this matter up with Jim?
> >
> > "Kenny Danielson" > wrote in message
> > nk.net...
> > > OK Juan, here's your first.
> > >
> > > I called AS&S about this twice but they refused to even consider they
> had
> > > made a mistake. In fact, they got a little unfriendly possibly because
> > after
> > > they referred me to the shipping page, I pointed out it didn't answer
> the
> > > question and further they couldn't account for the price any other
way.
> > So,
> > > after one email letter and two phone calls, the problem remains.
> > >
> > > In the past I've been a supporter of AS&S and even chimed in when I
> > thought
> > > this newsgroup was piling on unfairly. I have also given AS&S the
option
> > of
> > > matching a price on a big item available elsewhere. The small
> businessman
> > > has my sympathies since I have also been a retailer. "Your employees
can
> > put
> > > you out of business faster than the competition," goes a well-known
> quote.
> > I
> > > think Jim had better pay attention especially to his customers who
will
> > let
> > > him know how his business is going from the viewpoint of the user.
> > >
> > > Kenny Danielson, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
> > >
> > >
> > > "Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message
> > > news:xsa1b.218298$Ho3.28456@sccrnsc03...
> > >
> > >
> > > .......................................... And so far, I haven't
> > > > seen a single instance of a problem with AS&S reported here that
> > amounted
> > > to
> > > > much more than a case of whining by someone who has more of a chip
on
> > > their
> > > > shoulder than a real reason to
> > > complain......................................
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Kenny Danielson]

Only to customer service - not Irwin specifically. Tried to phone Irwin
without success.

Kenny Danielson, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho


"Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message
news:k162b.244833$YN5.164996@sccrnsc01...
> So you didn't try email...
>
> "Kenny Danielson" > wrote in message
> k.net...
> > Wasn't able to reach him personally.
> >
> > "Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message
> > news:sVW1b.183267$Oz4.49306@rwcrnsc54...
> > > Did you bring this matter up with Jim?
> > >
> > > "Kenny Danielson" > wrote in message
> > > nk.net...
> > > > OK Juan, here's your first.
> > > >
> > > > I called AS&S about this twice but they refused to even consider
they
> > had
> > > > made a mistake. In fact, they got a little unfriendly possibly
because
> > > after
> > > > they referred me to the shipping page, I pointed out it didn't
answer
> > the
> > > > question and further they couldn't account for the price any other
> way.
> > > So,
> > > > after one email letter and two phone calls, the problem remains.
> > > >
> > > > In the past I've been a supporter of AS&S and even chimed in when I
> > > thought
> > > > this newsgroup was piling on unfairly. I have also given AS&S the
> option
> > > of
> > > > matching a price on a big item available elsewhere. The small
> > businessman
> > > > has my sympathies since I have also been a retailer. "Your employees
> can
> > > put
> > > > you out of business faster than the competition," goes a well-known
> > quote.
> > > I
> > > > think Jim had better pay attention especially to his customers who
> will
> > > let
> > > > him know how his business is going from the viewpoint of the user.
> > > >
> > > > Kenny Danielson, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message
> > > > news:xsa1b.218298$Ho3.28456@sccrnsc03...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > .......................................... And so far, I haven't
> > > > > seen a single instance of a problem with AS&S reported here that
> > > amounted
> > > > to
> > > > > much more than a case of whining by someone who has more of a chip
> on
> > > > their
> > > > > shoulder than a real reason to
> > > > complain......................................
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Juan E Jimenez]

It's a lot easier to get a hold of him through email.

"Kenny Danielson" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Only to customer service - not Irwin specifically. Tried to phone Irwin
> without success.
>
> Kenny Danielson, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
>
>
> "Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message
> news:k162b.244833$YN5.164996@sccrnsc01...
> > So you didn't try email...
> >
> > "Kenny Danielson" > wrote in message
> > k.net...
> > > Wasn't able to reach him personally.
> > >
> > > "Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message
> > > news:sVW1b.183267$Oz4.49306@rwcrnsc54...
> > > > Did you bring this matter up with Jim?
> > > >
> > > > "Kenny Danielson" > wrote in message
> > > > nk.net...
> > > > > OK Juan, here's your first.
> > > > >
> > > > > I called AS&S about this twice but they refused to even consider
> they
> > > had
> > > > > made a mistake. In fact, they got a little unfriendly possibly
> because
> > > > after
> > > > > they referred me to the shipping page, I pointed out it didn't
> answer
> > > the
> > > > > question and further they couldn't account for the price any other
> > way.
> > > > So,
> > > > > after one email letter and two phone calls, the problem remains.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the past I've been a supporter of AS&S and even chimed in when
I
> > > > thought
> > > > > this newsgroup was piling on unfairly. I have also given AS&S the
> > option
> > > > of
> > > > > matching a price on a big item available elsewhere. The small
> > > businessman
> > > > > has my sympathies since I have also been a retailer. "Your
employees
> > can
> > > > put
> > > > > you out of business faster than the competition," goes a
well-known
> > > quote.
> > > > I
> > > > > think Jim had better pay attention especially to his customers who
> > will
> > > > let
> > > > > him know how his business is going from the viewpoint of the user.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kenny Danielson, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message
> > > > > news:xsa1b.218298$Ho3.28456@sccrnsc03...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > .......................................... And so far, I haven't
> > > > > > seen a single instance of a problem with AS&S reported here that
> > > > amounted
> > > > > to
> > > > > > much more than a case of whining by someone who has more of a
chip
> > on
> > > > > their
> > > > > > shoulder than a real reason to
> > > > > complain......................................
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message t...
>
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > Just had my $3000 order from AS&S ****ed up. At Oshkosh was told that
> > the EDM-800 I ordered would ship immediately. Now almost three weeks
> later
> > I get a letter saying it will drop ship from JPI sometime at the end of
> the month.
>
> Sounds to me like JPI ****ed up again.
>
How so, I didn't purchase the unit from JPI, I purchased it from Spruce.
They never indicated that they didn't stock them and were drop-shipping
them from JPI. They never told me in the intervening three weeks when
the shipping date might me. I was totally in the dark.

Just absolutely typical of my dealings with Spruce. Can't ever count on them.
Wouldn't use them for anything time critical.

[Juan E Jimenez]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> How so, I didn't purchase the unit from JPI, I purchased it from Spruce.
>
> They never indicated that they didn't stock them and were drop-shipping
> them from JPI. They never told me in the intervening three weeks when
> the shipping date might me. I was totally in the dark.
>
> Just absolutely typical of my dealings with Spruce. Can't ever count on
them.
> Wouldn't use them for anything time critical.

A while back I wrote a long article in Aero-News about Microair's production
and sales issues, and the fact that there were a lot of distributors and
dealers ****ed off about the issue, having to deal with angry customers and
having to return money. I interviewed some half-dozen avionics resellers,
including AS&S, and they were all uniformly ****ed at the manufacturer. The
distributor, EDMO, had at the time an order backlog going back almost a
year.

It's somewhat naive to expect that AS&S is responsible for this because they
don't "stock" the unit. Very few companies in this industry (or in any
industry) stock items in their own warehouse when the items don't move
quickly. That would be a waste of funds tied up in inventory for no reason,
and in this economy, it would be irresponsible to do that. In the
foodservice business, for example, inventory management is even more
critical due to the perishable nature of the goods.

What the dealer does is take the manufacturer at their word that they are
going to ship (drop- or direct) when an order is sent, and sell the items
based on the statements of the manufacturer. There are huge warehousing and
inventory management operations in the US who do this for a living. For
example, UPS has inventory management services where they set up systems to
very quickly fulfill orders.

Customers are not normally told this because most customers don't care where
the unit comes from. In this, as in Microair's case, the fault lies not with
the dealer who took the manufacturer's word, but with the manufacturer.

As to notification, I don't know if you told AS&S to notify you of back
orders. There's an option on the web site ordering system to tell them
whether or not you want your order shipped partially or only shipped when
complete. The status of my orders are usually available on the website. If I
remember correctly, the status even says when the order has been picked from
the warehouse, shipped, etc.

Like I said, if you're not or never have been in business for yourself, most
people don't have a clue when it comes to issues like these.

Juan

[Warren & Nancy]

Juan E Jimenez wrote:

> As to notification, I don't know if you told AS&S to notify you of back
> orders.

Any vender I have ever dealt with automatically told me if there was a back
order. I didn't have to ask them to.

Warren

[Juan E Jimenez]

So does AS&S when they send you email notification of the order acceptance.
<shrug>

"Warren & Nancy" > wrote in message
...
>
> Juan E Jimenez wrote:
>
> > As to notification, I don't know if you told AS&S to notify you of back
> > orders.
>
> Any vender I have ever dealt with automatically told me if there was a
back
> order. I didn't have to ask them to.
>
> Warren
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message news:uHp2b.193527
> It's somewhat naive to expect that AS&S is responsible for this because they
> don't "stock" the unit.

I don't care if they stock the unit or not. They should have indicated at the time
they purchased it whether they did or not. If they said: this gets drop shipped
from JPI and it's typically three weeks or something along those lines, that
would have been fine. Otherwise, one assumes that the normal UPS delays
are all that apply. Sending a statement three weeks after the fact isn't
quite the pinnacle of customer service.

> Customers are not normally told this because most customers don't care where
> the unit comes from.

Customers not only have a right to know it's the DAMN law with regard to mailorder
to get the word out in 30 days. Spruce clearly met the bare minimum of what was
required of them. Certainly NOT the ultimate in customer service. It matters not
what JPI told them or what JPI's ship time was.

> Like I said, if you're not or never have been in business for yourself, most
> people don't have a clue when it comes to issues like these.
>
Again you continuallly display your arrogant ignorance and blind defense of
those who have allowed you to smooze with them that blinds you to thinking
that they could do any wrong. Your continual defense of scoundrels like
Bede and Campbell is telling. You haven't a ****ing clue as to what my
situation or background is but you're happy to make up lies about me to
bolster your silly arguments. I have been the principal of my business fror
15 years now, and if we treated customers the way Spruce has treated me
consistantly, we'd have been out of business years ago.

[Ron Natalie]

"Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message news:xyq2b.257137$uu5.58962@sccrnsc04...
> So does AS&S when they send you email notification of the order acceptance.
>
Nope. First I heard that I was getting drop shippment that was delayed close to 30 days was
last week and it was sent by postal mail.

[Juan E Jimenez]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> I don't care if they stock the unit or not. They should have indicated
at the time
> they purchased it whether they did or not. If they said: this gets drop
shipped
> from JPI and it's typically three weeks or something along those lines,
that
> would have been fine. Otherwise, one assumes that the normal UPS delays
> are all that apply. Sending a statement three weeks after the fact isn't
> quite the pinnacle of customer service.

Obviously it's not typically three weeks. However, given what you posted
below pointing to the true source of your beef, which appears to be with me
and not AS&S, I think I'll just ignore this crap.

> Customers not only have a right to know it's the DAMN law with regard to
mailorder
> to get the word out in 30 days. Spruce clearly met the bare minimum of
what was
> required of them.

No they didn't. The bare minimum is four weeks.

> Again you continuallly display your arrogant ignorance and blind defense
of
> those who have allowed you to smooze with them that blinds you to thinking
> that they could do any wrong.

Get a life, Natalie. You still don't have a f*cking clue. I've never
"smoozed" with Jim Irwin. I've exchanged email with him, I've only met him
at his booth's in OSH and SNF and that's it. Ask him or anyone who works for
his company and see what they tell you.

> Your continual defense of scoundrels like Bede and Campbell is telling.

Oh, so _this_ is what it's about. Again? Boring.

> I have been the principal of my business fror
> 15 years now, and if we treated customers the way Spruce has treated me
> consistantly, we'd have been out of business years ago.

Apparently you're not being entirely truthful, since AS&S is still in
business and growing.

[Juan E Jimenez]

Whatever. Maybe they just don't like you. It must be a personal thing. They
picked you from all their customers to f*ck with just for the hell of it,
since they obviously don't have anything better to do. They just sit all day
long, sipping tea and waiting for Natalie to place an order, a cheer goes up
from the order processing desk and the entire company revolves around making
sure you don't get what you want in a timely fashion.

Deal with it.

<plonk!>

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message
news:xyq2b.257137$uu5.58962@sccrnsc04...
> > So does AS&S when they send you email notification of the order
acceptance.
> >
> Nope. First I heard that I was getting drop shippment that was delayed
close to 30 days was
> last week and it was sent by postal mail.
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message news:z3r2b.257480$uu5.58221@sccrnsc04...

>
> Obviously it's not typically three weeks. However, given what you posted
> below pointing to the true source of your beef, which appears to be with me
> and not AS&S, I think I'll just ignore this crap.
>

I don't have any beef with you other than you feel compelled to jump all
over me when I post legitimate gripes I have with spruce. Your only
answer is "Jim Irwin" wouldn't do that. Bull****, Jim has and is currently
doing it. It's not just me. AS&S has come a long way, but they still
ain't perfect.


>
> > I have been the principal of my business fror
> > 15 years now, and if we treated customers the way Spruce has treated me
> > consistantly, we'd have been out of business years ago.
>
> Apparently you're not being entirely truthful, since AS&S is still in
> business and growing.
>
Add to the list of problems you have the fact you can't read. I said, if I treated
people that way we'd be out of business. We however, deal with an industry
that expects a much higher level of customer service than the homebuilding
community.

[RobertR237]

In article >, "Ron Natalie"
> writes:

>
>>
>> Obviously it's not typically three weeks. However, given what you posted
>> below pointing to the true source of your beef, which appears to be with me
>> and not AS&S, I think I'll just ignore this crap.
>>
>
>I don't have any beef with you other than you feel compelled to jump all
>over me when I post legitimate gripes I have with spruce. Your only
>answer is "Jim Irwin" wouldn't do that. Bull****, Jim has and is currently
>doing it. It's not just me. AS&S has come a long way, but they still
>ain't perfect.
>
>

Ron,

You are wasting you time with this idiot. Jaun has proven time and again that
the only facts that he will recognize are the ones that he wants to see. You
can show him the facts in any form possible and he will simply ignore them if
they don't agree with his conclusions. Don't waste your time arguing with him,
you can't win and he will always have to get in the last word.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Incredible!]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:30:50 -0400, "Ron Natalie" >
wrote:

>Just had my $3000 order from AS&S ****ed up. At Oshkosh was told that
>the EDM-800 I ordered would ship immediately. Now almost three weeks later
>I get a letter saying it will drop ship from JPI sometime at the end of the month.

And it took you this long to realize that there was a problem? If I
had placed an expensive order at Oshkosh, I would have been on the
phone THE DAY I GOT BACK HOME to obtain a tracking number from Spruce.
If it turned out that the order had not been shipped immediately as
promised in Oshkosh, then Spruce would either ship it THAT DAY and
give me a tracking number or I would cancel the order and seek another
source. Given the tracking number, I would have gone to the UPS or
FEDEX website to check the progress of the delivery. This isn't rocket
science people.

Here's the point, for those who are slow to catch on, I would have
known THE DAY I RETURNED FROM OSHKOSH whether the promise made in
Oshkosh was kept. That it took you three weeks to gain that knowledge
speaks volumes about your naivete and inattention. Buy some clues
people and BE PROACTIVE with important orders.

Of course, just sitting around and making no inquiries for weeks does
give you the opportunity to go online and publicly bitch about "poor
service". I've ordered plenty from Spruce and I've NEVER received an
incomplete order that I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT WHEN I PLACED THE ORDER. In
my opinion, you bitchers make your own trouble.

In this thread we have one person who is considering "action" against
Spruce because he thinks they should have charged $35 instead of $55
for shipping, another who is so stupid that he sat around twiddling
his thumbs for two and a half weeks before he realized that a promise
made at the Spruce booth in Oshkosh wasn't kept, and lastly, we have a
half-wit who claims he has never received a complete order from Spruce
in 20 years. IN MY OPINION, IDIOTS ONE AND ALL.

Oh yes, for those who take exception to the anonymous nature of this
post, I suggest you print up, fold it five ways, and...

[Juan E Jimenez]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> I don't have any beef with you other than you feel compelled to jump all
> over me when I post legitimate gripes I have with spruce. Your only
> answer is "Jim Irwin" wouldn't do that.

Wrong. On both counts. You must be related to John Ashcroft, you don't mind
posting criticism of people but don't like it when someone does the same to
you.

Deal with it.

[Eric Miller]

Not *that* well said.

There's a lot to be said for taking personal responsibility, being
proactive, following up, and being persistent. All good stuff.

On the other hand, you shouldn't have to corner a business into good
customer service :-)

Eric

"Juan E Jimenez" > wrote in message
et...
> Well said.
>
> "Incredible!" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:30:50 -0400, "Ron Natalie" >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Just had my $3000 order from AS&S ****ed up. At Oshkosh was told that
> > >the EDM-800 I ordered would ship immediately. Now almost three weeks
> later
> > >I get a letter saying it will drop ship from JPI sometime at the end of
> the month.
> >
> > And it took you this long to realize that there was a problem? If I
> > had placed an expensive order at Oshkosh, I would have been on the
> > phone THE DAY I GOT BACK HOME to obtain a tracking number from Spruce.
> > If it turned out that the order had not been shipped immediately as
> > promised in Oshkosh, then Spruce would either ship it THAT DAY and
> > give me a tracking number or I would cancel the order and seek another
> > source. Given the tracking number, I would have gone to the UPS or
> > FEDEX website to check the progress of the delivery. This isn't rocket
> > science people.
> >
> > Here's the point, for those who are slow to catch on, I would have
> > known THE DAY I RETURNED FROM OSHKOSH whether the promise made in
> > Oshkosh was kept. That it took you three weeks to gain that knowledge
> > speaks volumes about your naivete and inattention. Buy some clues
> > people and BE PROACTIVE with important orders.
> >
> > Of course, just sitting around and making no inquiries for weeks does
> > give you the opportunity to go online and publicly bitch about "poor
> > service". I've ordered plenty from Spruce and I've NEVER received an
> > incomplete order that I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT WHEN I PLACED THE ORDER. In
> > my opinion, you bitchers make your own trouble.
> >
> > In this thread we have one person who is considering "action" against
> > Spruce because he thinks they should have charged $35 instead of $55
> > for shipping, another who is so stupid that he sat around twiddling
> > his thumbs for two and a half weeks before he realized that a promise
> > made at the Spruce booth in Oshkosh wasn't kept, and lastly, we have a
> > half-wit who claims he has never received a complete order from Spruce
> > in 20 years. IN MY OPINION, IDIOTS ONE AND ALL.
> >
> > Oh yes, for those who take exception to the anonymous nature of this
> > post, I suggest you print up, fold it five ways, and...
> >
> >
>
>

[Hal Davey]

Because FedEx Ground is really RPS (Roadway Package System) a sorry outfit
if there ever was one. The have an awful loss and theft problem and have no
idea what customer service is. Do not ever ship that way.
Sparkie

[Eric Miller]

"Incredible!" > wrote
> "Eric Miller" >
> wrote:
>
> >Not *that* well said.
> >
> >There's a lot to be said for taking personal responsibility, being
> >proactive, following up, and being persistent. All good stuff.
> >
> >On the other hand, you shouldn't have to corner a business into good
> >customer service
>
> Well, it was better said than your quaint little offering.

Nothing is better said than anything I write! =P

Besides, I was talking in general, not even about Spruce, whom I have no
complaints with.

Eric :-)

[RobertR237]

In article >, "Bruce A. Frank"
> writes:

>
>Hmmm. I'm not down any more on Aircraft Spruce, but have you ever bought
>from McMaster-Carr? They set the bar height to which all other mail
>order shippers should aspire. Maybe I am spoiled by McMaster. But, I
>also thought Alexander Aeroplane was excellent in delivery and customer
>service before they were bought by Aircraft Spruce
>--
>Bruce A. Frank
>
>

I agree, McMaster-Carr could give lessons to a lot of companies.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[BD5ER]

>also thought Alexander Aeroplane was excellent in delivery and customer
>service before they were bought by Aircraft Spruce

Ditto. I miss them.......