Comparing aircraft rentals and training costs.

[Vishvas Vasuki]

Hi guys,

I am trying to decide where to rent the plane from for pilot training.
But, being the archetypal pauper grad student, I needed your opinion (and
reasons) on which would be the cheaper option:

Our university's flying club:
Cessna 152 (1978) at 30$/ hr (measured by hobb's meter)
Piper Warrior II PA-28-161 (1979) with a new engine at 35$/hr
fuel charges extra.
instructor charges extra. (I can engage any instructor I choose.)
Membership costs: (I become the co-owner of the planes, as long as I am a
member.)
One time initiation fee of $300
Monthly membership fee is $35

----------
Another flying club near-by:
Instructor charges (dual flying and ground training): 50$/hr Discounted
rental rates include fuel and oil.
Cessna 152 (1983) Rate: $79.00/hr
Piper PA28-161 Warrior II (1983) Rate: $89.00/hr

As I have no clue about the hourly flight-training-fuel-costs and
instructor charges if I were to use the university's flying club, I cannot
compare the prices directly using arithmetic. Can someone give me an
estimate on these costs too, please?

Also, how much time might I need to spend reading books to pass the
examination?

Sincerely,
Vishvas Vasuki

[Flyin'[email protected]]

> I am trying to decide where to rent the plane from for pilot training.
> But, being the archetypal pauper grad student, I needed your opinion (and
> reasons) on which would be the cheaper option:
>
> Our university's flying club:
> Cessna 152 (1978) at 30$/ hr (measured by hobb's meter)
> Piper Warrior II PA-28-161 (1979) with a new engine at 35$/hr
> fuel charges extra.
> instructor charges extra. (I can engage any instructor I choose.)
> Membership costs: (I become the co-owner of the planes, as long as I am a
> member.)
> One time initiation fee of $300
> Monthly membership fee is $35
>
> ----------
> Another flying club near-by:
> Instructor charges (dual flying and ground training): 50$/hr
> Discounted rental rates include fuel and oil.
> Cessna 152 (1983) Rate: $79.00/hr
> Piper PA28-161 Warrior II (1983) Rate: $89.00/hr
>
> As I have no clue about the hourly flight-training-fuel-costs and
> instructor charges if I were to use the university's flying club, I
> cannot compare the prices directly using arithmetic. Can someone give me
> an estimate on these costs too, please?
>
> Also, how much time might I need to spend reading books to pass the
> examination?
>
> Sincerely,
> Vishvas Vasuki

Fuel Figure $4/gallon and 8Gal/hr. Total of $32/hour for fuel about $30/hr
for and Instructor. It looks like if you figure $100/hr for the university
flight option you would be real close. The flying club you mention hase an
expensive instructor, IMHO. I would say that option #1 is the less
expensive of the two...

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

[Vishvas Vasuki]

>>
>> Also, how much time might I need to spend reading books to pass the
>> examination?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Vishvas Vasuki
>
> Fuel Figure $4/gallon and 8Gal/hr. Total of $32/hour for fuel about $30/hr
> for and Instructor. It looks like if you figure $100/hr for the university
> flight option you would be real close. The flying club you mention hase an
> expensive instructor, IMHO. I would say that option #1 is the less
> expensive of the two...

Thanks! Based on the figures you quoted, I did the math, and I agree that
the university club is a better investment. Even if I factor in membership
fees for six months and the initiation fee at the university club, the
hourly cost at the two clubs seem to be $105 and $129 respectively. It
seems to come from the difference in the rental costs and the instructor
costs.

-Vishvas

[Mark Hansen]

On 05/10/07 09:49, Vishvas Vasuki wrote:
>>>
>>> Also, how much time might I need to spend reading books to pass the
>>> examination?
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Vishvas Vasuki
>>
>> Fuel Figure $4/gallon and 8Gal/hr. Total of $32/hour for fuel about $30/hr
>> for and Instructor. It looks like if you figure $100/hr for the university
>> flight option you would be real close. The flying club you mention hase an
>> expensive instructor, IMHO. I would say that option #1 is the less
>> expensive of the two...
>
> Thanks! Based on the figures you quoted, I did the math, and I agree that
> the university club is a better investment. Even if I factor in membership
> fees for six months and the initiation fee at the university club, the
> hourly cost at the two clubs seem to be $105 and $129 respectively. It
> seems to come from the difference in the rental costs and the instructor
> costs.
>
> -Vishvas
>
>

Does either option provide any insurance for you?

If you are a part owner in the plane, make sure you are listed as a
'named insured' on the insurance policy (or that the policy includes
a 'no subrogation' clause). This will help prevent the insurance company
from coming after you in the event they pay the club for a claim.

Will you be responsible for any deductibles in either case?



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Sylvain]

Vishvas Vasuki wrote:
> As I have no clue about the hourly flight-training-fuel-costs and
> instructor charges if I were to use the university's flying club, I cannot
> compare the prices directly using arithmetic.

in addition to the good points made by the other contributors, a couple of
things to consider:

- how many aircraft each places has, and how is maintenance done? if you
have to cancel lesson after lesson because the one and only trainer that
you can fly is unavailable, you'll find that your training is going to take
a lot more time and $$$ to complete;

- have you talked with the instructors? one good instructor with whom you
get along and who is efficient -- and available!.. same issue as above --
can make a much bigger difference in the overall cost of your training
than just the rental rate...

- what are the policies of these two places regarding renting aircraft for
several days, what kind of more advanced aircraft do they offer? you
won't be a student for ever, and will eventually want to progress to
faster, fancier machines and undertake more ambitious flights; can the
club/fbo you are considering make this possible or will you have to
find another place (where you'll have to spend some time being checked
out -- which can take a while for newly minted pilots)

--Sylvain

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Vishvas Vasuki" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi guys,
>
> I am trying to decide where to rent the plane from for pilot training.
> But, being the archetypal pauper grad student, I needed your opinion (and
> reasons) on which would be the cheaper option:

If things really are tight, you might look and see if there is a local
glider club - you can often get your ticket and fly for quite a bit less.
Later on, when you get steady employment you can add on the power ratings
(assuming you still want to).

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Vaughn Simon]

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message
news:u6mdnTJsXM75AN7bnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
>
> If things really are tight, you might look and see if there is a local glider
> club - you can often get your ticket and fly for quite a bit less. Later on,
> when you get steady employment you can add on the power ratings (assuming you
> still want to).

Ab-initio glider training can be pricey unless the club has a winch (rare
in the USA). Early glider training is just like any other flight training in
that lots of launches and landings are involved. The glider itself can be
relativly cheap per hour, and the instructer expense ranges from volunteer to a
"normal" price, but it is the aero tows that can really hit you in the
pocketbook.

If you are in a good soaring area, time building can be cheap once you
start soloing and get the hang of soaring.

Vaughn (CFIG)

[Vishvas Vasuki]

Hi,

> Does either option provide any insurance for you?
>
> If you are a part owner in the plane, make sure you are listed as a
> 'named insured' on the insurance policy (or that the policy includes a
> 'no subrogation' clause). This will help prevent the insurance company
> from coming after you in the event they pay the club for a claim.
>
> Will you be responsible for any deductibles in either case?

Thanks for the insurance warnings. I will check them out.

The university club web-page says, "As a member of the CFC, you
will become an equal owner of our aircraft. All aircraft are maintained to
the highest standards and we carry excellent insurance." But the
university club's constitution has this to say:

"Section B - Financial Responsibility

1. A flying member operating a Club airplane shall be totally responsible
for any damage occurring while the airplane is in his/her custody.

2. A flying member's responsibility shall begin when the airplane is
untied or accepted from another member, and continued until it is tied
down or turned over to another member.

3. If damage should result from a mechanical defect or other factor beyond
the control of the member concerned, the flying members may elect, by
majority vote, to share or absorb completely the resulting cost, depending
on the circumstances of the individual case."

But I have not yet found insurance information at the other flying school
(Northampton Airport) online.

Sincerely,
Vishvas

[tony roberts]

>
> Does either option provide any insurance for you?
>
> If you are a part owner in the plane, make sure you are listed as a
> 'named insured' on the insurance policy (or that the policy includes
> a 'no subrogation' clause). This will help prevent the insurance company
> from coming after you in the event they pay the club for a claim.
>
> Will you be responsible for any deductibles in either case?

More importantly IMHO
If someone fries the engine tomorrow, are you on the hook for a share to
buy a new one?

What is your share of the deductible if someone writes it off?

Is there an account that saves toward major items like engine rebuild?

Owning part of the plane can be good - because you have an asset that
you can sell - but make sure you understand all of your assumed
liabilities.

I hope that this helps,

Welcome to the world of flight!

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Vishvas Vasuki]

Thanks!

As I'm chasing the PhD degree, I expect to be a student for 4-6 more
years. As I can hardly wait to fly a powered plane, I'd rather not go in
for glider-training before graduating to a powered plane.

I plan to start training in October, and I'll check out the aircraft and
instructor availability, and its effects on my training at each place in
greater detail.

At the university, I can choose any instructor; and there are two planes:
Cessna 152 and the Piper Warrior. It seems that members can rent out
planes for one weekend per semester. Members are expected to return
the aircraft with at least 3 billable hours for each 24 hour period
scheduled.

At the Northampton airport, there are six instructors, and 5 aircraft:
Cessna 152, one Cessna 172, Two Piper Warrior II's, one Piper Arrow. (It
seems that they plan to get a light sports plane in the near future.)
Some aircraft may be scheduled for longer than 24 hours here, but, there
must be between two to four minimum flight hours.

But, either website does not mention anything about checking out pilots
before renting out aircraft for ambitious flights. Is it a common thing?

--
Vishvas Vasuki

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Vishvas Vasuki > posted:

> Hi,
>
>> Does either option provide any insurance for you?
>>
>> If you are a part owner in the plane, make sure you are listed as a
>> 'named insured' on the insurance policy (or that the policy includes
>> a 'no subrogation' clause). This will help prevent the insurance
>> company from coming after you in the event they pay the club for a
>> claim.
>>
>> Will you be responsible for any deductibles in either case?
>
> Thanks for the insurance warnings. I will check them out.
>
> The university club web-page says, "As a member of the CFC, you
> will become an equal owner of our aircraft. All aircraft are
> maintained to the highest standards and we carry excellent
> insurance." But the university club's constitution has this to say:
>
> "Section B - Financial Responsibility
>
> 1. A flying member operating a Club airplane shall be totally
> responsible for any damage occurring while the airplane is in his/her
> custody.
>
> 2. A flying member's responsibility shall begin when the airplane is
> untied or accepted from another member, and continued until it is tied
> down or turned over to another member.
>
> 3. If damage should result from a mechanical defect or other factor
> beyond the control of the member concerned, the flying members may
> elect, by majority vote, to share or absorb completely the resulting
> cost, depending on the circumstances of the individual case."
>
I'm hard pressed to see any advantage to this insurance coverage, and
would consider it a requirement to carry your own insurance. Factor in
that, and the costs come closer to or exceed that of the other flying
school, depending on the number of hours that you fly.

> But I have not yet found insurance information at the other flying
> school (Northampton Airport) online.
>
That may be an important difference. If their coverage is no better than
the university's, that will also imply that you obtain your own insurance.

Regards,

Neil

[Mark Hansen]

On 05/10/07 21:23, Vishvas Vasuki wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> Does either option provide any insurance for you?
>>
>> If you are a part owner in the plane, make sure you are listed as a
>> 'named insured' on the insurance policy (or that the policy includes a
>> 'no subrogation' clause). This will help prevent the insurance company
>> from coming after you in the event they pay the club for a claim.
>>
>> Will you be responsible for any deductibles in either case?
>
> Thanks for the insurance warnings. I will check them out.
>
> The university club web-page says, "As a member of the CFC, you
> will become an equal owner of our aircraft. All aircraft are maintained to
> the highest standards and we carry excellent insurance." But the
> university club's constitution has this to say:
>
> "Section B - Financial Responsibility
>
> 1. A flying member operating a Club airplane shall be totally responsible
> for any damage occurring while the airplane is in his/her custody.
>
> 2. A flying member's responsibility shall begin when the airplane is
> untied or accepted from another member, and continued until it is tied
> down or turned over to another member.
>
> 3. If damage should result from a mechanical defect or other factor beyond
> the control of the member concerned, the flying members may elect, by
> majority vote, to share or absorb completely the resulting cost, depending
> on the circumstances of the individual case."

Well, this certainly makes it sound like the club's insurance policy does
not cover you. You may want to consider getting your own insurance. Just
beware that the cost of hull coverage for renter pilots is not cheap.

Also, if the club tells you that their insurance will cover the airplane,
and they will only need you to cover the deductible, keep in mind that
the club's insurance company can still come after you for the full amount
of the claim, unless the policy has a no subrogation or similar clause.

The main driving force behind joining the club I did was that they include
each member as a 'named insured' on the policy, so the insurance company
can't come after us for recovery. The club even covers the deductible.
When I weighed the $20/month club dues against what it would cost me to
carry that much renter's insurance, it was a no-brainer.

>
> But I have not yet found insurance information at the other flying school
> (Northampton Airport) online.
>
> Sincerely,
> Vishvas
>



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Sylvain]

Vishvas Vasuki wrote:
> But, either website does not mention anything about checking out pilots
> before renting out aircraft for ambitious flights. Is it a common thing?

oh that's not what I meant. All I meant was that if you train and graduate
at some operation A, and then wants to fly with another operation B, said
operation B will want to check you out first; that's very common; actually
I don't know of any operation which will hand over the keys without any
kind of checkout, no matter how impressive your credentials might be;
the time required for said check out will depend on your experience,
the local policy, the type of aircraft, etc.

The point I was trying to make is that you want to plan ahead and take
into consideration the kind of flying you'll want to do when you graduate
with your private certificate; availability of aircrafts for more
ambitious flights, possibilities to undertake more advanced training
(instrument, commercial, etc.)

Note that flying can also be quite a time intensive activity; I have
been a graduate student for a few years, I don't recall having much
free time :-)

all the best in both endeavor,

--Sylvain

[Vishvas Vasuki]

Thanks for your excellent replies, everyone!

--
Vishvas Vasuki