While Holding for a Briefing Today...

[Kyle Boatright]

I was on the phone for the now-traditional 15 minute pre-brief hold today
and they had a new voice on the "hold line". Instead of an announcement
every 45 seconds about how busy they are and calls are taken on a first come
first served basis, and we'll take your call ASAP, there was a message from
the LockMart guy in charge of the FSS project.

Essentially "Sorry about the bad service. Increased seasonal volume has
swamped us. We're half way through the transition. It'll be better once we
complete the transition. We have about 3 more months of work to go to
reduce from 58 to 19 FSS's.

Of course, my cynical side thinks.. If we're halfway through the process
now, I guess we'll be really screwed when these guys complete the process.
Also, didn't LockMart anticipate that flight briefing requests go up in the
summer? Hello, McFly....

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Kyle Boatright" > wrote:

> I was on the phone for the now-traditional 15 minute pre-brief hold today
> and they had a new voice on the "hold line". Instead of an announcement
> every 45 seconds about how busy they are and calls are taken on a first come
> first served basis, and we'll take your call ASAP, there was a message from
> the LockMart guy in charge of the FSS project.
>
> Essentially "Sorry about the bad service.

if you believe that...


>Increased seasonal volume has
> swamped us. We're half way through the transition. It'll be better once we
> complete the transition. We have about 3 more months of work to go to
> reduce from 58 to 19 FSS's.

yeah, reducing the number of FSS's will absolutely help.

>
> Of course, my cynical side thinks.. If we're halfway through the process
> now, I guess we'll be really screwed when these guys complete the process.
> Also, didn't LockMart anticipate that flight briefing requests go up in the
> summer? Hello, McFly....

Surely you don't think anyone would have studied call volume.

Of course they did, how else could they possibly justify reducing the
number of flight service stations?

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 15 May 2007 20:42:53 -0400, "Kyle Boatright"
> wrote in
>:

>LockMart anticipate that flight briefing requests go up in the summer?

You can't expect a for-profit corporation to have staffing levels
great enough to adequately handle the peak periods. They'd be over
staffed most of the time. :-(

[Kyle Boatright]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 15 May 2007 20:42:53 -0400, "Kyle Boatright"
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>>LockMart anticipate that flight briefing requests go up in the summer?
>
> You can't expect a for-profit corporation to have staffing levels
> great enough to adequately handle the peak periods. They'd be over
> staffed most of the time. :-(

A logical person would think that the FAA set performance requirements when
they published the RFP for this program. Following that line of thought,
you would think there would be adequate penalties to guarantee that the
winner of the RFP would lose its tail if it didn't exceed the performance
required in the RFP...

Of course, we're dealing with a government agency here, so the process might
not be that logical.

Additionally, LockMart may have the FAA over a barrel - "Sure, I understand
that the FAA could terminate our contract. But if you fire us, who is gonna
take all of those phone calls tomorrow, and what number are they gonna
call?" "Additionally, how's it gonna look when you go before Congress? I'd
hate to see the entire top rank of the FAA get fired, because I don't think
most of you will be able to get an equivalent job in the private sector."

[kontiki]

Larry Dighera wrote:
>
> You can't expect a for-profit corporation to have staffing levels
> great enough to adequately handle the peak periods. They'd be over
> staffed most of the time. :-(
>

There are legitimate functions of government: Public Transportation
standards and safety, fire police and rescue, military and borders
and ports. Hopefully, a large amount of time you will NOT be needing
these trained people.... but when you need them you MUST have them
and in numbers sufficient to do the job. I would include Flight Services
and ATC in the category of *legitimate* government function... and
"profit" should not a factor in determining staffing levels for these
types of organizations or functions.

This government might not be so strapped for cash (and thus need to
reduce spending in LEGITIMATE areas) if it were not spending so much
money on things it has no Constitutional or legitimate right to be
spending taxpayer's money on (like buying votes with pork and welfare
programs).

Thankfully there are some people and business actually still making a
profit out there or this government wouldn't have the money to blow.

[Dan Luke]

"Kyle Boatright" wrote:

>
> Additionally, LockMart may have the FAA over a barrel - "Sure, I understand
> that the FAA could terminate our contract. But if you fire us, who is gonna
> take all of those phone calls tomorrow, and what number are they gonna
> call?"

Not necessarily. The FAA no doubt has penalty clauses in the contract. They
can stop the money if L-M does not meet performance spec's.

Now, if L-M were on the edge of going under, *then* they'd have the FAA over a
barrel.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Ash Wyllie]

Kyle Boatright opined

>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 15 May 2007 20:42:53 -0400, "Kyle Boatright"
>> > wrote in
>> >:
>>
>>>LockMart anticipate that flight briefing requests go up in the summer?
>>
>> You can't expect a for-profit corporation to have staffing levels
>> great enough to adequately handle the peak periods. They'd be over
>> staffed most of the time. :-(

>A logical person would think that the FAA set performance requirements when
>they published the RFP for this program. Following that line of thought,
>you would think there would be adequate penalties to guarantee that the
>winner of the RFP would lose its tail if it didn't exceed the performance
>required in the RFP...

>Of course, we're dealing with a government agency here, so the process might
>not be that logical.

>Additionally, LockMart may have the FAA over a barrel - "Sure, I understand
>that the FAA could terminate our contract. But if you fire us, who is gonna
>take all of those phone calls tomorrow, and what number are they gonna
>call?" "Additionally, how's it gonna look when you go before Congress? I'd
>hate to see the entire top rank of the FAA get fired, because I don't think
>most of you will be able to get an equivalent job in the private sector."

How about helping the existing briefers to set up a coop? They are there, and
know what needs to be done.



-ash
Cthulhu in 2007!
Why wait for nature?

[Aluckyguess]

Happened to me. I waited 15min. then hung up called back it was busy. Then
called back and got through in about 5 min.
"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
. ..
>I was on the phone for the now-traditional 15 minute pre-brief hold today
>and they had a new voice on the "hold line". Instead of an announcement
>every 45 seconds about how busy they are and calls are taken on a first
>come first served basis, and we'll take your call ASAP, there was a message
>from the LockMart guy in charge of the FSS project.
>
> Essentially "Sorry about the bad service. Increased seasonal volume has
> swamped us. We're half way through the transition. It'll be better once
> we complete the transition. We have about 3 more months of work to go to
> reduce from 58 to 19 FSS's.
>
> Of course, my cynical side thinks.. If we're halfway through the process
> now, I guess we'll be really screwed when these guys complete the process.
> Also, didn't LockMart anticipate that flight briefing requests go up in
> the summer? Hello, McFly....
>

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
. ..
>I was on the phone for the now-traditional 15 minute pre-brief hold today

Hmm...I got in on the second ring, but it's not LockMart :~)

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 15 May 2007 21:57:27 -0400, "Kyle Boatright"
> wrote in
>:

>A logical person would think that the FAA set performance requirements when
>they published the RFP for this program. Following that line of thought,
>you would think there would be adequate penalties to guarantee that the
>winner of the RFP would lose its tail if it didn't exceed the performance
>required in the RFP...

It would appear that those things happened. The DOT OIG reported
that the FAA has fined Lockheed Martin $9 million for failure to live
up to service and performance guarantees.

But LocMart is seeking and additional $177 million, mostly because the
FAA didn't supply accurate labor cost information. And the finger
pointing goes on...



LOCKHEED MARTIN WANTS MORE FSS MONEY
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/865-full.html#195180)
Lockheed Martin is looking for a 10-percent increase in the fees
it's being paid to take over flight services. According to a
report

(http://www.oig.dot.gov/StreamFile?file=/data/pdfdocs/Final_Budget_Statement_w-508.pdf)
from the Department of Transportation's Office of Inspector
General, the company, which was awarded a $1.8 billion contract to
assume the function, says it's owed another $177 million, mostly
because the FAA didn't supply accurate labor cost information.
Lockheed Martin's claims are now being assessed. Meanwhile, the
DOT OIG also reported that the FAA has fined Lockheed Martin $9
million for failure to live up to service and performance
guarantees. Pilots in the Washington, D.C., area have recently
complained that FSS changes have resulted in a sharp increase in
dropped flight plans and that briefers, some of whom were in
California, didn't know the procedures for operations in
the Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) that surrounds the
capital. The OIG is now preparing a report on FSS operations that
will be released later this month.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/865-full.html#195180


As a prelude to ATC privatization, this issue does not inspire
confidence in either party.



http://www.oig.dot.gov/StreamFile?file=/data/pdfdocs/Final_Budget_Statement_w-508.pdf
Verification of Labor Qualification and Rates: Labor costs
generally account for the largest portion of support service contract
costs. Our RESULTS audit and FAA’s own review identified incidents
when contractor staff did not meet the expected qualifications for
positions billed. For example, we found that an employee on a contract
was originally billed as an administrative assistant at an hourly rate
of $35. Four months later, the same employee was billed as an analyst
at an hourly rate of $71 without any proof of additional
qualifications. Verifying contract labor qualification for the rates
billed could potentially save FAA millions of dollars for support
services. Based on our RESULTS audit, and as part of an Agency-wide
initiative announced by the FAA Administrator to strengthen internal
controls over procurements, FAA reviewed one of its other
multiple-award programs, BITS II, and found similar problems. For
example, FAA found evidence that multiple contractors had extensively
billed FAA for employees at labor rates that were higher than their
actual education and experience warranted, as specified by terms of
the contract. FAA referred this matter to us for investigation. In one
case, we found that a contractor invoiced FAA for the services of an
employee in the labor category of “Senior Management Analyst” at a
rate of $100 per hour, instead of the proper rate of $40 per hour
based on the employee’s qualifications. Specifically, the “Senior
Management Analyst” category required an individual with 12 years of
direct experience, yet the employee in question had only 2 years of
experience. As a result of our investigation to date, 12 of 13
contractors have agreed to repay a total of $7.9 million in inflated
billings under administrative settlements with FAA. Review of
Contractor-Proposed Prices: Our audit found that FAA awarded contracts
without sufficient competition and price analyses. FAA now requires
that the Deputy Administrator approve all new contracts valued over $1
million that are awarded on a sole-source basis. While this is a step
in the right direction, FAA still needs to strengthen its review of
contractor-proposed prices. When facing inadequate competition from
bidding contractors, FAA’s contracting officers are required to
perform a price analysis to assess the fairness of contractor-proposed
prices. We 18 OIG Report Number FI-2006-072, “Audit of the Federal
Aviation Administration’s RESULTS National Contracting Service,”
September 21, 2006.
26
found that this control was not working in many incidents. For
example, we found a case where the Independent Government Cost
Estimate was prepared by the contractor to whom the contract was
awarded. We plan to follow up on FAA’s use of price and cost analysis
techniques to ensure the reasonableness of prices in contract
proposals. Controls Over the Conversion of Flight Service Stations to
Contract Operations On February 1, 2005, FAA awarded a 5-year,
fixed-price incentive contract (with 5 additional option years) to
Lockheed Martin to operate the Agency’s 58 flight service stations in
the continental United States, Puerto Rico, and Hawaii. The contract,
worth about $1.8 billion, represents one of the largest non-defense
outsourcing of services in the Federal Government. FAA anticipates
that by contracting out flight service facilities, it will save $2.2
billion over the 10-year life of the agreement. On October 4, 2005,
Lockheed Martin took over operations at the 58 flight service
stations. We are currently conducting a review of FAA’s controls over
the conversion of flight service stations to contract operations. We
plan on issuing our interim report later this month. Overall, we found
that FAA has implemented effective controls over the initial
transition of flight service stations to contract operations. These
controls include contractual performance measures that require the
contractor to achieve acceptable levels of operational performance and
service and internal mechanisms that oversee the operational and
financial aspects of the program. We also found that the Agency uses
these controls to monitor contract flight service stations and, in
some cases, penalizes the contractor for poor performance. To date,
FAA has imposed approximately $9 million in financial penalties
against the contractor for failing several contractual performance
measures. FAA is requiring the contractor to submit corrective action
plans to resolve the deficient performance measures. In addition, FAA
and the contractor are now entering the next and most critical phase
of the transition. In February, the contractor began efforts to
complete, test, and implement a new software operating system for
flight service stations and consolidate the existing 58 sites into 3
hub and 16 refurbished locations—all by the end of July.19 Any slips
in that schedule could have significant implications to the costs and
anticipated savings of the transition. 19 One facility, which was
originally planned to be refurbished, will now remain open until the
end of the year; it will then be consolidated into the Leesburg hub.
27
In addition, FAA could be facing further reductions to savings as
Lockheed Martin is requesting nearly $177 million in equitable
adjustments to the contract. Most of that adjustment ($147 million) is
based on the contractor’s claim that it was not provided the correct
labor rates when it submitted its bid. In April, FAA provided us with
the first of its planned annual variance reports comparing estimated
and actual first-year costs. This is an important tool in that it will
allow FAA to identify cost overruns, determine the reasons for the
overruns, and allow for adjustments to ensure that savings are
realized. We are currently reviewing the completed variance report and
assessing the contractor’s progress in executing the next phase of the
transition.

Totals: The total NextGen funding projected for this period is
$4,334,700,000. The total Remaining Facilities and Equipment Funds
projected for this period are $11,059,700,000. The grand total
(NextGen Funding plus Remaining Facilities and Equipment Funds) is
$15,394,400,000. Note: NextGen Funding includes the Automatic
Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast Program, the System Wide Information
Management Program, and future projects supporting NextGen. Remaining
Facilities and Equipment funds include funding for the existing
projects, facilities, and support service contracts. Total NextGen
Fiscal Year 2008 to Fiscal Year 2012 from the capital account is $4.3
billion. Source: FAA National Airspace System Capital Investment Plan
FY 2008 to FY 2012

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ash Wyllie" > wrote in message
...
>
> How about helping the existing briefers to set up a coop? They are there,
> and
> know what needs to be done.
>

They have no time to raise chickens.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Dan Luke" > wrote:

> "Kyle Boatright" wrote:
>
> >
> > Additionally, LockMart may have the FAA over a barrel - "Sure, I understand
> > that the FAA could terminate our contract. But if you fire us, who is
> > gonna
> > take all of those phone calls tomorrow, and what number are they gonna
> > call?"
>
> Not necessarily. The FAA no doubt has penalty clauses in the contract. They
> can stop the money if L-M does not meet performance spec's.

you can bet Lockmart has an army of lawyers ready to pounce on the FAA
(of course, having more briefers would have eliminated the need for
the lawyers...)

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 16 May 2007 20:33:24 -0400, Bob Noel
> wrote in
>:

>(of course, having more briefers would have eliminated the need for
>the lawyers...)

But having a larger FSS staff wouldn't have provided the same
"savings" that was the alleged reason for FSS privatization. The
contractor's performance provides a mini-glimpse at the chaos ATC
privatization would cause. I wonder why we don't hear of the Part 121
carriers complaining about FSS delays. Could it be that the airlines
aren't experiencing them?

[Luke Skywalker]

On May 15, 7:42 pm, "Kyle Boatright" > wrote:

> Also, didn't LockMart anticipate that flight briefing requests go up in the
> summer? Hello, McFly....

I am sure that they did anticipate it and didnt give one fracken
care. I am just old enough to remember when walking into the FSS and
getting a briefing was how it was done. Slowly but surely, and
probably not completly with this last move, what we have done is
retained the worst of the old system while trying to make a new one.

Ie the briefing is centered around "the phone" and two people on the
phone while reducing the number of people at the "call in" end that
can take the phone call. And yet the number of people needing
briefings is either growing or at least staying still.

But the entire concept of "weather briefings" for pilots NOT being in
the national interest means that it is now to whomever can "make a
buck with it". Operators are standing by...they are just talking with
you.

Robert

[Marty Shapiro]

Larry Dighera > wrote in
:

> On Wed, 16 May 2007 20:33:24 -0400, Bob Noel
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>>(of course, having more briefers would have eliminated the need for
>>the lawyers...)
>
> But having a larger FSS staff wouldn't have provided the same
> "savings" that was the alleged reason for FSS privatization. The
> contractor's performance provides a mini-glimpse at the chaos ATC
> privatization would cause. I wonder why we don't hear of the Part 121
> carriers complaining about FSS delays. Could it be that the airlines
> aren't experiencing them?
>
>

They don't use FSS, so they don't care.

Several years ago, I had a tour of a major airlines maintenance
facility. On this tour, they showed us the trip package the pilots
received prior to their flights. This package contained a weather briefing
prepared by the airline's own certified weather people and if more
information was needed, the pilots could talk directly with the weather
people. For scheduled flights, flight plans were automatically entered into
the FAA's computers each day. Enroute, the pilots contact the company on
dedicated radio channels to get weather updates.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 17 May 2007 08:31:06 GMT, Marty Shapiro
> wrote in
>:

>
> They don't use FSS, so they don't care.
>
> Several years ago, I had a tour of a major airlines maintenance
>facility. On this tour, they showed us the trip package the pilots
>received prior to their flights. This package contained a weather briefing
>prepared by the airline's own certified weather people and if more
>information was needed, the pilots could talk directly with the weather
>people. For scheduled flights, flight plans were automatically entered into
>the FAA's computers each day. Enroute, the pilots contact the company on
>dedicated radio channels to get weather updates.

I had a feeling that was the case. It's like the oil companies
reaping carbon offset credits:


http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/dn11835-carbon-offset-cashin-questioned.html
The market in carbon offsets, which allows companies to invest in
renewable energy as a way of mitigating their own greenhouse gas
emissions - almost doubled in 2006 to $5 billion, the World Bank
said on 2 May. According to a recent report in the London-based
Financial Times, some of that money is going to oil companies that
are simply pumping CO2 into oilfields to extract more oil. They
would have done this anyway, so profits from selling the credits
go straight into company coffers, with no benefit to new
carbon-saving schemes.

FSS Privatization is not in the public interest.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Dan Luke" > wrote:
>
>> "Kyle Boatright" wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Additionally, LockMart may have the FAA over a barrel - "Sure, I
>> > understand
>> > that the FAA could terminate our contract. But if you fire us, who is
>> > gonna
>> > take all of those phone calls tomorrow, and what number are they gonna
>> > call?"
>>
>> Not necessarily. The FAA no doubt has penalty clauses in the contract.
>> They
>> can stop the money if L-M does not meet performance spec's.
>
> you can bet Lockmart has an army of lawyers ready to pounce on the FAA
> (of course, having more briefers would have eliminated the need for
> the lawyers...)

And the FAA has legions of lawyers...a veritable endless stream of them.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
. ..
>I was on the phone for the now-traditional 15 minute pre-brief hold today
>and they had a new voice on the "hold line". Instead of an announcement
>every 45 seconds about how busy they are and calls are taken on a first
>come first served basis, and we'll take your call ASAP, there was a message
>from the LockMart guy in charge of the FSS project.
>
> Essentially "Sorry about the bad service. Increased seasonal volume has
> swamped us. We're half way through the transition. It'll be better once
> we complete the transition. We have about 3 more months of work to go to
> reduce from 58 to 19 FSS's.
>
> Of course, my cynical side thinks.. If we're halfway through the process
> now, I guess we'll be really screwed when these guys complete the process.
> Also, didn't LockMart anticipate that flight briefing requests go up in
> the summer? Hello, McFly....

If it's sooooo important to you, why not suscribe to WxWorx, Jeppesen, or
Meteorix, or any of the similar services?


--
Matt Barrow
Performace Homes, LLC.
Colorado Springs, CO

[Kyle Boatright]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>I was on the phone for the now-traditional 15 minute pre-brief hold today
>>and they had a new voice on the "hold line". Instead of an announcement
>>every 45 seconds about how busy they are and calls are taken on a first
>>come first served basis, and we'll take your call ASAP, there was a
>>message from the LockMart guy in charge of the FSS project.
>>
>> Essentially "Sorry about the bad service. Increased seasonal volume has
>> swamped us. We're half way through the transition. It'll be better once
>> we complete the transition. We have about 3 more months of work to go to
>> reduce from 58 to 19 FSS's.
>>
>> Of course, my cynical side thinks.. If we're halfway through the process
>> now, I guess we'll be really screwed when these guys complete the
>> process. Also, didn't LockMart anticipate that flight briefing requests
>> go up in the summer? Hello, McFly....
>
> If it's sooooo important to you, why not suscribe to WxWorx, Jeppesen, or
> Meteorix, or any of the similar services?

Do all of those services have a trained person on the line who looks at
weather several hours a day and can relate the trends they are seeing?
That's the big thing that a briefer offers.... "The forecast calls for "X",
but we're seeing rapid improvement (or worsening), and based on that, I
think the forecast may be pessimistic (or optimistic)...

Also, do all of those services record the briefing, just in case I need a
witness that I got a briefing? Say I get a full FSS briefing and no TFR's
are mentioned, despite my request for that info. Then, due to whatever
circumstance, I bust a TFR and get a F-16 escort. My opinion is that having
a bona fide record of an FSS briefing would be a very good piece of evidence
on my behalf...

>
> --
> Matt Barrow
> Performace Homes, LLC.
> Colorado Springs, CO
>

[[email protected]]

On May 17, 3:27 am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Thu, 17 May 2007 08:31:06 GMT, Marty Shapiro
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>
>
> > They don't use FSS, so they don't care.
>
> > Several years ago, I had a tour of a major airlines maintenance
> >facility. On this tour, they showed us the trip package the pilots
> >received prior to their flights. This package contained a weather briefing
> >prepared by the airline's own certified weather people and if more
> >information was needed, the pilots could talk directly with the weather
> >people. For scheduled flights, flight plans were automatically entered into
> >the FAA's computers each day. Enroute, the pilots contact the company on
> >dedicated radio channels to get weather updates.
>
> I had a feeling that was the case. It's like the oil companies
> reaping carbon offset credits:
>
> http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/dn11835-carbon-offs...
> The market in carbon offsets, which allows companies to invest in
> renewable energy as a way of mitigating their own greenhouse gas
> emissions - almost doubled in 2006 to $5 billion, the World Bank
> said on 2 May. According to a recent report in the London-based
> Financial Times, some of that money is going to oil companies that
> are simply pumping CO2 into oilfields to extract more oil. They
> would have done this anyway, so profits from selling the credits
> go straight into company coffers, with no benefit to new
> carbon-saving schemes.
>
> FSS Privatization is not in the public interest.

As if reducing CO2 has any real benefit... NOT!

[[email protected]]

On May 15, 6:42 pm, "Kyle Boatright" > wrote:
> I was on the phone for the now-traditional 15 minute pre-brief hold today
> and they had a new voice on the "hold line". Instead of an announcement
> every 45 seconds about how busy they are and calls are taken on a first come
> first served basis, and we'll take your call ASAP, there was a message from
> the LockMart guy in charge of the FSS project.
>
> Essentially "Sorry about the bad service. Increased seasonal volume has
> swamped us. We're half way through the transition. It'll be better once we
> complete the transition. We have about 3 more months of work to go to
> reduce from 58 to 19 FSS's.
>
> Of course, my cynical side thinks.. If we're halfway through the process
> now, I guess we'll be really screwed when these guys complete the process.
> Also, didn't LockMart anticipate that flight briefing requests go up in the
> summer? Hello, McFly....

Well, looks like I am going to be doing all my pre-flight via the
internet from now on, and only use the FSS in flight to activate and
close flight plans...

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...

>>
>> If it's sooooo important to you, why not suscribe to WxWorx, Jeppesen, or
>> Meteorix, or any of the similar services?
>
> Do all of those services have a trained person on the line who looks at
> weather several hours a day and can relate the trends they are seeing?

Yes.

Do you think corporate flight departments would rely on a "talking head"?

> That's the big thing that a briefer offers.... "The forecast calls for
> "X", but we're seeing rapid improvement (or worsening), and based on that,
> I think the forecast may be pessimistic (or optimistic)...

Do FAA briefers have data updated constantly, or just the periodic hour
reports?

WXWork, WSI, Jepp, all are usng data in as close to real-time as one can
get.

What does FSS use?

>
> Also, do all of those services record the briefing, just in case I need a
> witness that I got a briefing?

Yup! Probably better records than the FAA.

>Say I get a full FSS briefing and no TFR's are mentioned, despite my
>request for that info. Then, due to whatever circumstance, I bust a TFR and
>get a F-16 escort. My opinion is that having a bona fide record of an FSS
>briefing would be a very good piece of evidence on my behalf...

Think of why corporate and commercial aviation DOES NOT use the FAA
services, but private firms.

Here's ananalogy: think of the difference between, say, Honda, Toyota, Ford
and, oh, Yugo, or Lara.

[john smith]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> WXWork, WSI, Jepp, all are usng data in as close to real-time as one can
> get.

They all get the same information from the same source.
It's what they do with it that differentiates the service.

[Larry Dighera]

On 17 May 2007 19:52:45 -0700, wrote in
om>:

>looks like I am going to be doing all my pre-flight via the
>internet from now on, and only use the FSS in flight to activate and
>close flight plans...

Those airman who feel as you do as a result of LocMart's failure to
meet their performance standards are probably what they are banking on
to break even.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Sun, 20 May 2007 11:39:08 +0000, Larry Dighera wrote:

> Those airman who feel as you do as a result of LocMart's failure to meet
> their performance standards are probably what they are banking on to break
> even.

I'm thinking about bank tellers and ATM machines. The ATM machines
permitted the number of tellers to drop. Then the ATM fees started. The
number of tellers didn't go [back] up.

- Andrew

[Marty Shapiro]

Andrew Gideon > wrote in
:

> On Sun, 20 May 2007 11:39:08 +0000, Larry Dighera wrote:
>
>> Those airman who feel as you do as a result of LocMart's failure to
>> meet their performance standards are probably what they are banking
>> on to break even.
>
> I'm thinking about bank tellers and ATM machines. The ATM machines
> permitted the number of tellers to drop. Then the ATM fees started.
> The number of tellers didn't go [back] up.
>
> - Andrew
>
>

Prior to the introduction of ATMs, banks kept "banker's hours". They
were open from 10 AM to 3 PM Monday through Thursday and until 5 PM on
Friday. Lines at lunch hour were much longer then than now.

Shortly after the introduction of ATM's, there was at least one bank
that for a while actually imposed a 50 cent fee on its own customers for
using a teller rather than the ATM if their account was below some limit.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Jose]

> I'm thinking about bank tellers and ATM machines. The ATM machines
> permitted the number of tellers to drop. Then the ATM fees started. The
> number of tellers didn't go [back] up.

Not only that, but for a while Citibank was charging people to see a
teller if an ATM could have performed the transaction. That caused a
ruckus, and they more than withdrew that position.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sun, 20 May 2007 17:21:35 -0400, Jose >
wrote in >:

>Not only that, but for a while Citibank was charging people to see a
>teller if an ATM could have performed the transaction.

I canceled all my Citi credit cards. I don't do business with
CitiBank.

[Jose]

>>Not only that, but for a while Citibank was charging people to see a
>>teller if an ATM could have performed the transaction.
> I canceled all my Citi credit cards. I don't do business with
> CitiBank.

To their credit, once they got the backlash, they withdrew their charge
for teller transactions, and started featuring their customer service,
which became excellent. That counts a lot for me.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.