Nickname for Apache helicopter

[Jim Beaver]

An online article suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models) as "The
Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.

I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. Has anyone
here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever heard
this story?

Jim Beaver

[[email protected]]

On May 19, 7:56 pm, "Jim Beaver" > wrote:
> An online article suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
> Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models) as "The
> Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.
>
> I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. Has anyone
> here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever heard
> this story?
>
> Jim Beaver

Is this the article you're talking about?

http://www.pleonast.com/user/jungleman

If you scroll down to the John Wayne part, you get to this:

"The Marine Corp named three models of their prototype Apache
Helicopter "The Duke". "

[Jim Beaver]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> On May 19, 7:56 pm, "Jim Beaver" > wrote:
>> An online article suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
>> Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models) as
>> "The
>> Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.
>>
>> I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. Has
>> anyone
>> here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever heard
>> this story?
>>
>> Jim Beaver
>
> Is this the article you're talking about?
>
> http://www.pleonast.com/user/jungleman
>
> If you scroll down to the John Wayne part, you get to this:
>
> "The Marine Corp named three models of their prototype Apache
> Helicopter "The Duke". "

No, that's lifted, along with some other stuff, word for word from the
article I refer to (which is on Wikipedia). I'm looking for solid support
for the statement. Haven't found it yet.

Jim Beaver

[Ed]

"Jim Beaver" > wrote in message
...
> An online article suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
> Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models) as
"The
> Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.
>
> I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. Has
anyone
> here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever heard
> this story?
>
> Jim Beaver
>
>
Not trying to be ignorant here, but if this is the AH64 Apache, isn't the
Army the only user, not the Marines??

[Rob Arndt[_2_]]

On May 19, 9:03�pm, "Ed" > wrote:
> "Jim Beaver" > wrote in message
>
> ...> An online article suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
> > Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models) as
> "The
> > Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.
>
> > I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. *Has
> anyone
> > here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever heard
> > this story?
>
> > Jim Beaver
>
> Not trying to be ignorant here, but if this is the AH64 Apache, isn't the
> Army the only user, not the Marines??

And old article from 2003 on the Apache and its vunerabilites which is
still valid in 2007:
http://www.slate.com/id/2081906/

Iraqi insurgents call the Longbow version the "Broken Bow" and they
are not completely unjustified. This is supposed to be the premiere
armored attack helo on the frontline battlefield forward of our AFVs
and infantry. Instead, they need USAF air cover and rarely are far
from the troops. When they do go out by themselves they are vunerable
to simple AK-47 and RPG fire. Many have been downed and a large amount
damaged enough not to be air worthy until after extensive repairs- and
this is against untrained mobs with small arms. Imagine fighting the
Russians, Chinese, or anyone with equal firepower, missiles, accurate
radar, and emerging anti-helo technologies...

The "Patch-Me" helo needs help...

Rob

[Jim Beaver]

"Ed" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Beaver" > wrote in message
> ...
>> An online article suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
>> Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models) as
> "The
>> Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.
>>
>> I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. Has
> anyone
>> here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever heard
>> this story?
>>
>> Jim Beaver
>>
>>
> Not trying to be ignorant here, but if this is the AH64 Apache, isn't the
> Army the only user, not the Marines??

That's one of the reasons I'm trying to confirm the statement in the
article. Despite being an ex-Marine, I have no idea as to the answer.
(When I left the Marines, the Huey was pretty new.)

Jim Beaver

[Leadfoot[_2_]]

"Jim Beaver" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ed" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Jim Beaver" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> An online article suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
>>> Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models) as
>> "The
>>> Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.
>>>
>>> I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. Has
>> anyone
>>> here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever heard
>>> this story?
>>>
>>> Jim Beaver
>>>
>>>
>> Not trying to be ignorant here, but if this is the AH64 Apache, isn't the
>> Army the only user, not the Marines??
>
> That's one of the reasons I'm trying to confirm the statement in the
> article. Despite being an ex-Marine, I have no idea as to the answer.
> (When I left the Marines, the Huey was pretty new.)
>
> Jim Beaver


I worked briefly at the Apache facory in Mesa AZ rewiring the A model into
Longbows or D model, I had opportunities to chat with people who had been
with the program from the start. This included the Chief Test pilot who
made a point of telling everyone how he let Sen Barry Goldwater handle the
flight controls while the competition (the Commanche?) wouldn't let the
senator handle the controls. Supposedly this was why the Apache won the
contract. He wound up ****ing someone off, got fired and then sued and got
his "job" back however while they had to pay him as a chief test pilot they
didn't have to let him work as one so they made him a line supervisor in the
factory who was my boss for an even briefer time.

What I heard was that they had done everything on paper to navalise the
AH-64 and then made an offer to the Marines but that was as far as it went,
PAPER. My understanding was as far as navalisation goes it was easier to
stick with the Cobra and upgrade the weapons and avionics than to make an an
Apache that could withstand long periods in a salt water environment. I'm
guessing but the blades were probably the biggest hang up. You'd have to
mod them to fold and make sure they could handle a salt water environment.

There are 8 or so Apaches with tie-down rings welded to the bottom of the
fuselage. This was done for the invasion of Granada in 1983.

Can't say their weren't Marine prototypes built but based on what I heard I
doubt it.



>
>

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Leadfoot
> writes
>What I heard was that they had done everything on paper to navalise the
>AH-64 and then made an offer to the Marines but that was as far as it
>went, PAPER.

The UK Apaches are getting qualified for maritime ops offf HMS Ocean or
the CVSs, but that's not full marinisation: rather, detachment as part
of a Tailored Air Group for a specific mission.

>My understanding was as far as navalisation goes it was easier to stick
>with the Cobra and upgrade the weapons and avionics than to make an an
>Apache that could withstand long periods in a salt water environment.
>I'm guessing but the blades were probably the biggest hang up. You'd
>have to mod them to fold and make sure they could handle a salt water
>environment.

I think the Apache's blades fold (for air transport, at least) but as
you point out, getting the airframe able to stand up to prolonged
exposure to salt spray is a seriously non-trivial issue.

Again with UK experience, we deploy Joint Force Harrier GR.7s to sea for
specific deployments, but for a committed force we wanted the Sea
Harrier; which wasn't just a case of putting a radar in the nose, but
some surprisingly wide-ranging structural changes such as getting rid of
all the magnesium components (while light and stiff, I'm assured it rots
very fast in a maritime environment)

--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides


Paul J. Adam - mainbox{at}jrwlynch[dot]demon(dot)co<dot>uk

[[email protected]]

On May 20, 12:40 am, Rob Arndt > wrote:
> On May 19, 9:03?pm, "Ed" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Jim Beaver" > wrote in message
>
> ...> An online article suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
> > > Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models) as
> > "The
> > > Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.
>
> > > I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. ?Has
> > anyone
> > > here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever heard
> > > this story?
>
> > > Jim Beaver
>
> > Not trying to be ignorant here, but if this is the AH64 Apache, isn't the
> > Army the only user, not the Marines??
>
> And old article from 2003 on the Apache and its vunerabilites which is
> still valid in 2007:http://www.slate.com/id/2081906/
>
> Iraqi insurgents call the Longbow version the "Broken Bow" and they
> are not completely unjustified. This is supposed to be the premiere
> armored attack helo on the frontline battlefield forward of our AFVs
> and infantry. Instead, they need USAF air cover and rarely are far
> from the troops. When they do go out by themselves they are vunerable
> to simple AK-47 and RPG fire. Many have been downed and a large amount
> damaged enough not to be air worthy until after extensive repairs- and
> this is against untrained mobs with small arms. Imagine fighting the
> Russians, Chinese, or anyone with equal firepower, missiles, accurate
> radar, and emerging anti-helo technologies...


A guy I know was an Apache pilot with the NC NG. This was in
1990-91 and they were disappointed they weren't deployed to Saudi
Arabia. One thing he said stuck with me. It seems the Apaches at his
base got broken into a couple of times so they put padlocks on the
canopies. He said one guy unlocked it and just laid the lock next to
the canopy. He forgot about it and when he took off, the lock flew
back, hit something in the tail rotor, and brought the Apache down.
I have no idea whether this was true, but he said his squadron was
pretty sure the Apaches weren't "small arms proof up to 20mm" as
advertised.

>
> The "Patch-Me" helo needs help...
>
> Rob- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Leadfoot[_2_]]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> On May 20, 12:40 am, Rob Arndt > wrote:
>> On May 19, 9:03?pm, "Ed" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Jim Beaver" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...> An online article
>> >suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
>> > > Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models)
>> > > as
>> > "The
>> > > Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.
>>
>> > > I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. ?Has
>> > anyone
>> > > here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever
>> > > heard
>> > > this story?
>>
>> > > Jim Beaver
>>
>> > Not trying to be ignorant here, but if this is the AH64 Apache, isn't
>> > the
>> > Army the only user, not the Marines??
>>
>> And old article from 2003 on the Apache and its vunerabilites which is
>> still valid in 2007:http://www.slate.com/id/2081906/
>>
>> Iraqi insurgents call the Longbow version the "Broken Bow" and they
>> are not completely unjustified. This is supposed to be the premiere
>> armored attack helo on the frontline battlefield forward of our AFVs
>> and infantry. Instead, they need USAF air cover and rarely are far
>> from the troops. When they do go out by themselves they are vunerable
>> to simple AK-47 and RPG fire. Many have been downed and a large amount
>> damaged enough not to be air worthy until after extensive repairs- and
>> this is against untrained mobs with small arms. Imagine fighting the
>> Russians, Chinese, or anyone with equal firepower, missiles, accurate
>> radar, and emerging anti-helo technologies...
>
>
> A guy I know was an Apache pilot with the NC NG. This was in
> 1990-91 and they were disappointed they weren't deployed to Saudi
> Arabia. One thing he said stuck with me. It seems the Apaches at his
> base got broken into a couple of times so they put padlocks on the
> canopies. He said one guy unlocked it and just laid the lock next to
> the canopy. He forgot about it and when he took off, the lock flew
> back, hit something in the tail rotor, and brought the Apache down.
> I have no idea whether this was true, but he said his squadron was
> pretty sure the Apaches weren't "small arms proof up to 20mm" as
> advertised.

The only thing "small arms proof up to 20mm" is the cockpit. It's similar
in concept to the titanium bathtub found in the A-10. Although there is a
lot more plexiglass

Was he able to land safely?


>
>>
>> The "Patch-Me" helo needs help...
>>
>> Rob- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>

[Leadfoot[_2_]]

"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, Leadfoot
> > writes
>>What I heard was that they had done everything on paper to navalise the
>>AH-64 and then made an offer to the Marines but that was as far as it
>>went, PAPER.
>
> The UK Apaches are getting qualified for maritime ops offf HMS Ocean or
> the CVSs, but that's not full marinisation: rather, detachment as part of
> a Tailored Air Group for a specific mission.

I broke my knee in 1997 which ended my stint both at Boeing Mesa (I was on a
contract, not a direct employee) and my crawling around on aircraft. A
small batch of UK Apaches were to be built about 6 months to a year later
with the rest of the production being done in England. It's not a hard
aircraft to build

The AH-64D Longbow starts by taking an A model out of storage,(Cheney
mothballed a lot of them after the wall fell) stripping the fuselage to bare
metal and storing/refurbing the various components removed. Then the fun
part comes with rewiring the the fuselage with brand new wiring along with
whatever mods are needed mechanically. DITMCO (continuity check) the wiring
and then install the old and new black boxes along with rigging the flight
controls. Then off to functional/flight test to wring out the bugs.

The oddest thing was that the longbow radar system uses one of the largest
black boxes I have ever seen on an aircraft. About the size of a coffin for
a 12 year old. Or maybe a large steamer trunk. A two man job to install as
it weighs over 100Lbs. Personally I think that was a mistake

My information is a bit dated and subject to a tad bit of fog ;-)


>
>>My understanding was as far as navalisation goes it was easier to stick
>>with the Cobra and upgrade the weapons and avionics than to make an an
>>Apache that could withstand long periods in a salt water environment. I'm
>>guessing but the blades were probably the biggest hang up. You'd have to
>>mod them to fold and make sure they could handle a salt water environment.
>
> I think the Apache's blades fold (for air transport, at least) but as you
> point out, getting the airframe able to stand up to prolonged exposure to
> salt spray is a seriously non-trivial issue.

Air transport is done via disassembly of the rotor baldes, not folding. It
was designed for that. I think the standard was flying combat in 12 hours
after an offload.

>
> Again with UK experience, we deploy Joint Force Harrier GR.7s to sea for
> specific deployments, but for a committed force we wanted the Sea Harrier;
> which wasn't just a case of putting a radar in the nose, but some
> surprisingly wide-ranging structural changes such as getting rid of all
> the magnesium components (while light and stiff, I'm assured it rots very
> fast in a maritime environment)

Exacrly! It's one of those "devil in the details" and I bet even if they
had convinced the Marines to buy some once it was deployed something new
would crop up.


>
> --
> The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
> warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
> by fools.
> -Thucydides
>
>
> Paul J. Adam - mainbox{at}jrwlynch[dot]demon(dot)co<dot>uk

[[email protected]]

On May 20, 11:53 pm, "Leadfoot" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 20, 12:40 am, Rob Arndt > wrote:
> >> On May 19, 9:03?pm, "Ed" > wrote:
>
> >> > "Jim Beaver" > wrote in message
>
> >> ...> An online article
> >> >suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
> >> > > Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models)
> >> > > as
> >> > "The
> >> > > Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.
>
> >> > > I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. ?Has
> >> > anyone
> >> > > here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever
> >> > > heard
> >> > > this story?
>
> >> > > Jim Beaver
>
> >> > Not trying to be ignorant here, but if this is the AH64 Apache, isn't
> >> > the
> >> > Army the only user, not the Marines??
>
> >> And old article from 2003 on the Apache and its vunerabilites which is
> >> still valid in 2007:http://www.slate.com/id/2081906/
>
> >> Iraqi insurgents call the Longbow version the "Broken Bow" and they
> >> are not completely unjustified. This is supposed to be the premiere
> >> armored attack helo on the frontline battlefield forward of our AFVs
> >> and infantry. Instead, they need USAF air cover and rarely are far
> >> from the troops. When they do go out by themselves they are vunerable
> >> to simple AK-47 and RPG fire. Many have been downed and a large amount
> >> damaged enough not to be air worthy until after extensive repairs- and
> >> this is against untrained mobs with small arms. Imagine fighting the
> >> Russians, Chinese, or anyone with equal firepower, missiles, accurate
> >> radar, and emerging anti-helo technologies...
>
> > A guy I know was an Apache pilot with the NC NG. This was in
> > 1990-91 and they were disappointed they weren't deployed to Saudi
> > Arabia. One thing he said stuck with me. It seems the Apaches at his
> > base got broken into a couple of times so they put padlocks on the
> > canopies. He said one guy unlocked it and just laid the lock next to
> > the canopy. He forgot about it and when he took off, the lock flew
> > back, hit something in the tail rotor, and brought the Apache down.
> > I have no idea whether this was true, but he said his squadron was
> > pretty sure the Apaches weren't "small arms proof up to 20mm" as
> > advertised.
>
> The only thing "small arms proof up to 20mm" is the cockpit. It's similar
> in concept to the titanium bathtub found in the A-10. Although there is a
> lot more plexiglass

I seem to remember reading that the rotors were supposedly 20mm
proof.....
>
> Was he able to land safely?

Apparently he never got very high....pretty much did some ground
spins...torque is a biatch.

>
>
>
>
>
> >> The "Patch-Me" helo needs help...
>
> >> Rob- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Paul J. Adam]

In message om>,
writes
>On May 20, 11:53 pm, "Leadfoot" > wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> > I have no idea whether this was true, but he said his squadron was
>> > pretty sure the Apaches weren't "small arms proof up to 20mm" as
>> > advertised.
>>
>> The only thing "small arms proof up to 20mm" is the cockpit. It's similar
>> in concept to the titanium bathtub found in the A-10. Although there is a
>> lot more plexiglass
>
> I seem to remember reading that the rotors were supposedly 20mm
>proof.....

The usual claim I've seen is that the Apache is designed to survive a
couple of hits from up to 23mm HEI (I assume with ZSU-23-4s in mind) -
that's not "23mm proof", but rather "won't crash immediately and can
limp back to base for repairs". Stuff like the gearbox able to run dry
for thirty minutes before eating itself, that kind of thing.

I'm sure there are still spots where one golden bullet can bring it
down, but it's a tough bird as helicopters go.

--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides


Paul J. Adam - mainbox{at}jrwlynch[dot]demon(dot)co<dot>uk

[Tankfixer]

In article >,
mumbled
> An online article suggests, without citation or reference, that the U.S.
> Marine Corps nicknamed its Apache helicopter (through three models) as "The
> Duke," presumably in honor of actor John Wayne.

I am curious why they would do so when they do not operate any....


>
> I cannot find corroboration for this statement in web searches. Has anyone
> here with either first-hand or citable evidence to support it ever heard
> this story?

--
Usenetsaurus n. an early pedantic internet mammal, who survived on a
diet of static text and
cascading "threads."

[Pat Flannery]

wrote:
> I seem to remember reading that the rotors were supposedly 20mm
> proof.....
>

23 mm resistant.
Soviet's go straight from 14.5 mm to 23 mm with no intermediate step.
Then they hop up to 30 mm, 37mm, and 57 mm.


Pat

[Pat Flannery]

Paul J. Adam wrote:
>
> The usual claim I've seen is that the Apache is designed to survive a
> couple of hits from up to 23mm HEI (I assume with ZSU-23-4s in mind) -
> that's not "23mm proof", but rather "won't crash immediately and can
> limp back to base for repairs". Stuff like the gearbox able to run dry
> for thirty minutes before eating itself, that kind of thing.
>
> I'm sure there are still spots where one golden bullet can bring it
> down, but it's a tough bird as helicopters go.

The Comanche was designed to take a 23 mm hit over anywhere its entire
structure* by using a composite Kevlar reinforced body shell as its
fuselage.
The whole thing was built like a Mosquito bomber, where the monocoque
exterior of its body formed the main structural strength of it, with
only minimal interior reinforcement and bracing. Basically a giant
plastic model helicopter where the fuselage halves are entirely hollow
inside.

* I'd like to see them try that on the cockpit windowpanes, BTW.
Ballistic polycarbonate that's bullet resistant is one thing; ballistic
polycarbonate that's proof against 23 mm HE fire is quite another.
Easy enough to test though...tape a hand grenade onto it, and pull the
pin. :-)

Pat