Re: Where is everyone?

[Jay Honeck]

> In the mid-60s and early 70s people also did not have multiple cell phones
> (one for each family member), cable/satellite TV, satellite radio, "starter"
> homes the size of small castles, home entertainment centers, or 2 brand new
> cars (one an SUV) in the driveway. Today these are all looked at as
> "necessities", and they consume what would otherwise be disposable income.

Boy, that's for sure. Let's look at the fixed expenses for my middle-
class parents in the late 1960s:

- Mortgage on a modest 3-bedroom ranch
- One car
- Telephone
- Water
- Gas/Electric

Now let's look at the average middle class American today:

- Mortgage on a 4-bedroom, 2 story house (What do people *do* with all
that space, anyway?)
- Multiple (at least two, usually more) cars
- Telephone
- Water
- Gas/Electric
- Cell phone(s) for each family member
- High speed internet
- Cable TV/movie channels/satellite dish
- Computer(s)
- Color printer(s)

Then factor in the SUVs, campers, jet skis, etc. -- none of which even
EXISTED in the '60s, and you get the point. The difference from my
parents lifestyle is just stunning -- yet everyone thinks it's
"normal" now.

THAT is why so many people are in debt to their eyeballs, IMHO. And
it's also why people feel they can't afford flight lessons.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

> THAT is why so many people are in debt to their eyeballs, IMHO.

I know people with solid, six-figure incomes who are in debt to their
eyeballs.

The whole country is floating on a huge bubble of debt. Individuals have
their maxed-out credit cards, 5-year car loans and second mortgages and
government is helping pump the economy with massive deficit spending.

But don't worry, be happy! Buy something!

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Peter R.]

On 5/23/2007 5:18:57 PM, "Dan Luke" wrote:

> The whole country is floating on a huge bubble of debt. Individuals have
> their maxed-out credit cards, 5-year car loans

Car dealers around my part of the US are now offering 6 year car loans! With
auto depreciation being what it is, there will be a lot of upside-down auto
loans out there in a few more years.

--
Peter

[Matt Whiting]

Peter R. wrote:
> On 5/23/2007 5:18:57 PM, "Dan Luke" wrote:
>
>> The whole country is floating on a huge bubble of debt. Individuals have
>> their maxed-out credit cards, 5-year car loans
>
> Car dealers around my part of the US are now offering 6 year car loans! With
> auto depreciation being what it is, there will be a lot of upside-down auto
> loans out there in a few more years.
>

There are 7 year (yes, 84 month) car loans available as well. I'm not
sure this is such a bad deal as my 1994 Chevy truck is going strong
after 14 years. I bought it at the same time I bought my 182
partnership back in 1994 using a 7 year home equity loan for both. I
had the airplane 6 years, but the truck I still have! :-)

Matt

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Peter R. wrote:
>
> Car dealers around my part of the US are now offering 6 year car loans!

Now? <G>

I've seen 72 month loans for years, now 84 months is available at my
normally very conservative credit union.

On the other hand, there are lots of folks who have leased vehicles that
they take a 5 year loan to purchase at the three year mark. A friend of
mine who sells loans tells me this isn't a rare thing.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2007-05-23, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> THAT is why so many people are in debt to their eyeballs, IMHO. And
> it's also why people feel they can't afford flight lessons.

They just aren't committed to aviation if they aren't prepared to
sacrifice some of those frivolous things.

I started to learn to fly in 1997. (10th anniversary of my 1st solo in a
couple of weeks!)

I was on international assignment, living in Houston. My employer gave
me a free money transfer for a proportion of my home country salary each
month plus an international service allowance - all in all, I had an
income going into my US bank account of about $30K a year. I banked the
rest of my salary in my home country and saved the entire lot. On $30K a
year, I managed to not only learn to fly (three to four lessons a week)
but by the end of 1999, afford a half share in the Cessna 140.

My living arrangements - apartment (in a nice area), no cable TV, no
cellphone, second hand vehicle with no repayment. No debt. I flew three
to four times a week, and I could afford it solely on that $30K. In late
1999, I bought half a share of a Cessna 140. Without dipping into my
home country savings!

Granted, you can't do that if you have a family, but if you don't care
one whit about keeping up with the Joneses, you can live debt free AND
fly without breaking the bank.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Dylan Smith]

On 2007-05-23, Peter R. > wrote:
> Car dealers around my part of the US are now offering 6 year car loans! With
> auto depreciation being what it is, there will be a lot of upside-down auto
> loans out there in a few more years.

Personally, I can never see myself ever buying a new car. My current
car, I bought in 2002 (it's a '95 model). If I had bought the same make
and model brand new in 2002, by 2005 it would have depreciated more than
the *entire* value of the car I have now. The maintenance cost of my now
12 year old car is less than the loan interest on a new car, let alone
the depreciation.

A good used car can be had for a song and will go on for years. Mine's
galvanized so it hasn't even gone rusty in the salty air here. It runs
as well as it did when it rolled off the dealer's lot in 1995. It gets
the fuel economy that the book says it should, too. I'm planning on
still having this car in 2015 when it's 20 years old!

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Mxsmanic]

Dylan Smith writes:

> They just aren't committed to aviation if they aren't prepared to
> sacrifice some of those frivolous things.

Why must they be committed?

Would you enjoy it if you could only drive a car by sacrificing everything
else in your life? Is it wrong for people to want to drive cars even though
they are not willing to sacrifice everything else to do so?

Why must a person practically become a martyr in order to fly?

With attitudes like that, there won't be any pilots at all one day. Saying
"if you want to fly, you must suffer in every other way" isn't going to swell
the ranks.

> Granted, you can't do that if you have a family, but if you don't care
> one whit about keeping up with the Joneses, you can live debt free AND
> fly without breaking the bank.

Unless you have a family, as you say. Or perhaps you should abandon your
family in exchange for the celestial privilege of flying?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Dylan Smith writes:
>
>> They just aren't committed to aviation if they aren't prepared to
>> sacrifice some of those frivolous things.
>
> Why must they be committed?
>
> Would you enjoy it if you could only drive a car by sacrificing
> everything else in your life? Is it wrong for people to want to drive
> cars even though they are not willing to sacrifice everything else to
> do so?
>
> Why must a person practically become a martyr in order to fly?
>
> With attitudes like that, there won't be any pilots at all one day.
> Saying "if you want to fly, you must suffer in every other way" isn't
> going to swell the ranks.
>
>> Granted, you can't do that if you have a family, but if you don't
>> care one whit about keeping up with the Joneses, you can live debt
>> free AND fly without breaking the bank.
>
> Unless you have a family, as you say. Or perhaps you should abandon
> your family in exchange for the celestial privilege of flying?


You're an idiot.


Bertie
>

[Peter R.]

On 5/24/2007 7:38:03 AM, B A R R Y wrote:

> I've seen 72 month loans for years, now 84 months is available at my
> normally very conservative credit union.

Ah, ok. I have been out of the need to finance a car for so long (I also
don't drive new cars anymore and my current vehicle is about 8 years old)
that I was unaware until recently that auto financing had moved up to those
terms. 84 months is just insane.

--
Peter

[Peter R.]

On 5/24/2007 8:00:48 AM, Dylan Smith wrote:

> A good used car can be had for a song and will go on for years. Mine's
> galvanized so it hasn't even gone rusty in the salty air here. It runs
> as well as it did when it rolled off the dealer's lot in 1995. It gets
> the fuel economy that the book says it should, too. I'm planning on
> still having this car in 2015 when it's 20 years old!

I share your mindset. It took me a few new cars back in the 80s and early 90s
to come to it, but now I understand the logic. Depreciation sucks.

--
Peter

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Peter R. wrote:
> 84 months is just insane.
>
I'm with ya'!

How else can so many people drive cars that cost them a year's pay? <G>

I live in an average, middle class 'hood, with neighbors with average
jobs, and am blown away by the number of 50k+ cars on my street.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2007-05-24, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Why must they be committed?

To be not committed in aviation is a very dangerous thing indeed. I
think the tired old quote is something like "aviation is not inherently
unsafe, But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly
unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect."

So if you want to be in the game, you need a bit more commitment to it
than, say, playing pool at the local.

> Why must a person practically become a martyr in order to fly?

Going without a brand new gas guzzling SUV or two is hardly being a
martyr. Not buying a McMansion is hardly being a martyr. Not keeping up
with the Joneses or engaging in conspicuous consumerism is not
martyrdom.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Jay Honeck]

> I share your mindset. It took me a few new cars back in the 80s and early 90s
> to come to it, but now I understand the logic. Depreciation sucks.

Me, too.

I think everyone should own a brand new car (that they ordered to
their specs) once in their lives. It's a wonderful experience, and I
remember well that feeling of pride as I drove it home. Just the
*smell* is worth it, once.

However, from the day you take delivery onwards, it's nothing but
stupid. It's a lose-lose situation, financially, that, thankfully, a
remarkable number of people are willing to risk -- which makes it
possible for me to buy Toyota T-100s for $2500...

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Going without a brand new gas guzzling SUV or two is hardly being a
> martyr. Not buying a McMansion is hardly being a martyr. Not keeping up
> with the Joneses or engaging in conspicuous consumerism is not
> martyrdom.


I've met people -- usually women -- who would rather die than not
"keep up with the Jones"...The concept of "giving up the Escalade" in
order to take flight lessons couldn't be more foreign to them.

I don't get it, but that's not unusual.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[BDS[_2_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote

> Why must a person practically become a martyr in order to fly?

One doesn't, but one might have to make some choices as to what one spends
their money on. You can get your license for the same money that you might
spend on new furniture, remodeling a room, putting in a hot tub, etc.

Not having a hot tub does not a martyr make - at least not where I come
from.

> With attitudes like that, there won't be any pilots at all one day.
Saying
> "if you want to fly, you must suffer in every other way" isn't going to
swell
> the ranks.

The tendency towards people wanting/expecting immediate gratification is a
more serious threat than anything else IMO.

> Unless you have a family, as you say. Or perhaps you should abandon your
> family in exchange for the celestial privilege of flying?

Lots of pilots have families.

BDS

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Dylan Smith writes:
>
>> They just aren't committed to aviation if they aren't prepared to
>> sacrifice some of those frivolous things.
>
> Why must they be committed?
>
> Would you enjoy it if you could only drive a car by sacrificing everything
> else in your life? Is it wrong for people to want to drive cars even
> though
> they are not willing to sacrifice everything else to do so?
>
> Why must a person practically become a martyr in order to fly?
>
> With attitudes like that, there won't be any pilots at all one day.
> Saying
> "if you want to fly, you must suffer in every other way" isn't going to
> swell
> the ranks.
>
>> Granted, you can't do that if you have a family, but if you don't care
>> one whit about keeping up with the Joneses, you can live debt free AND
>> fly without breaking the bank.
>
> Unless you have a family, as you say. Or perhaps you should abandon your
> family in exchange for the celestial privilege of flying?
>

Tell ya what, first get a job and learn to at least support yourself. Then
when you actually have a stable income, come back and well talk about a
budgets and choices.

It's painfully easy to see from everything you write, that you know less
about earning money and making choices on how you spend it, than you do
about actually flying. And that's a hell of a lot.

[Maxwell]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Going without a brand new gas guzzling SUV or two is hardly being a
>> martyr. Not buying a McMansion is hardly being a martyr. Not keeping up
>> with the Joneses or engaging in conspicuous consumerism is not
>> martyrdom.
>
>
> I've met people -- usually women -- who would rather die than not
> "keep up with the Jones"...The concept of "giving up the Escalade" in
> order to take flight lessons couldn't be more foreign to them.
>
> I don't get it, but that's not unusual.

It's not just women, a lot of men are the same way. They have to drive the
latest and greatest, often diesel pickup. Then live in a TV, and faithfully
purchase everything they are told.

Funny thing they just can't seem to comprehend is, ya just can't keep up
with the Jones. Someone will always have a lot more "toys" than you do. Ya
just have to say the serenity prayer, buy the toys that matter most to you,
and learn to enjoy them.

The biggest lesson an man, woman or child can learn - is how to find
happiness with the things you can afford, instead of wasting you life
greving over the things you can't.

[Mxsmanic]

Dylan Smith writes:

> To be not committed in aviation is a very dangerous thing indeed. I
> think the tired old quote is something like "aviation is not inherently
> unsafe, But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly
> unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect."

Being committed in the sense of sacrificing else is not the same as being
committed to flying safely, and the latter does not require the former.

> Going without a brand new gas guzzling SUV or two is hardly being a
> martyr.

Doing without one will not pay for flying, which is much more expensive. And
for people who can't afford the SUV to begin with, it's a useless suggestion.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

BDS writes:

> One doesn't, but one might have to make some choices as to what one spends
> their money on. You can get your license for the same money that you might
> spend on new furniture, remodeling a room, putting in a hot tub, etc.

Getting a license costs a lot more than any of these things, at least around
here. And I can't afford any of them. Neither can many other people.

> Not having a hot tub does not a martyr make - at least not where I come
> from.

Doing without a hot tub will not help most people to afford flying.

> The tendency towards people wanting/expecting immediate gratification is a
> more serious threat than anything else IMO.

Well, perhaps that problem will be solved, and GA will disappear, and you'll
get your wish.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> BDS writes:
>
>> One doesn't, but one might have to make some choices as to what one
>> spends
>> their money on. You can get your license for the same money that you
>> might
>> spend on new furniture, remodeling a room, putting in a hot tub, etc.
>

No it doesn't moron. Take a coarse in basic math.

> Getting a license costs a lot more than any of these things, at least
> around
> here. And I can't afford any of them. Neither can many other people.
>
>> Not having a hot tub does not a martyr make - at least not where I come
>> from.
>
> Doing without a hot tub will not help most people to afford flying.

Just one of many good examples.

>
>> The tendency towards people wanting/expecting immediate gratification is
>> a
>> more serious threat than anything else IMO.
>
> Well, perhaps that problem will be solved, and GA will disappear, and
> you'll
> get your wish.
>

What do you propose? Socialized aviation? Get a life,,,,, or better yet, get
job.

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On 24 May, 20:18, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> BDS writes:
> > One doesn't, but one might have to make some choices as to what one spends
> > their money on. You can get your license for the same money that you might
> > spend on new furniture, remodeling a room, putting in a hot tub, etc.
>
> Getting a license costs a lot more than any of these things, at least around
> here. And I can't afford any of them. Neither can many other people.
>
> > Not having a hot tub does not a martyr make - at least not where I come
> > from.
>
> Doing without a hot tub will not help most people to afford flying.
>
> > The tendency towards people wanting/expecting immediate gratification is a
> > more serious threat than anything else IMO.
>
> Well, perhaps that problem will be solved, and GA will disappear, and you'll
> get your wish.

Again, thou speakath out thine arse bits


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On 24 May, 20:16, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Dylan Smith writes:
> > To be not committed in aviation is a very dangerous thing indeed. I
> > think the tired old quote is something like "aviation is not inherently
> > unsafe, But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly
> > unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect."
>
> Being committed in the sense of sacrificing else is not the same as being
> committed to flying safely, and the latter does not require the former.
>
> > Going without a brand new gas guzzling SUV or two is hardly being a
> > martyr.
>
> Doing without one will not pay for flying, which is much more expensive.

Yes it will fjukktard. My airplane cost me less than a fast bike.


Bertie