$1500 Cash Reward

[Larry Dighera]

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:11:30 GMT, Matt Whiting >
wrote in >:

>Larry Dighera wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 20:22:36 -0000, wrote in
>> . com>:
>>
>>> Well, now these young men get to find out what its like in an ass-
>>> pounding prison...
>>
>> So, in your mind the just punishment for burglary is anal rape?
>>
>
>That is pretty mild, but better than nothing. I prefer cutting off a
>finger or two or maybe an entire hand for serious cases.
>
>Matt


Your point of barbaric view is predictable given your irrational
beliefs.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 04:44:26 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
<mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in
>:

>Larry Dighera wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 20:22:36 -0000, wrote in
>> . com>:
>>
>>> Well, now these young men get to find out what its like in an ass-
>>> pounding prison...
>>
>> So, in your mind the just punishment for burglary is anal rape?
>
>
>Works for me. If they don't want to get punished, they shouldn't do the crime.

Why isn't incarceration alone fitting punishment for burglary? Why
don't you see anal rape as falling under the "cruel and unusual" group
of impermissible punishments?

>I have zero empathy for the perps.

I am also opposed to crime, but it is beneath the dignity of an
enlightened nation to condone barbaric practices.

How do you feel about the millions of undocumented immigrants who
illegally enter our nation? Do you think they should be lined up,
bent over and raped? Is that the kind of nation you'd be proud to be
part of?

[Matt Whiting]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:11:30 GMT, Matt Whiting >
> wrote in >:
>
>> Larry Dighera wrote:
>>> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 20:22:36 -0000, wrote in
>>> . com>:
>>>
>>>> Well, now these young men get to find out what its like in an ass-
>>>> pounding prison...
>>> So, in your mind the just punishment for burglary is anal rape?
>>>
>> That is pretty mild, but better than nothing. I prefer cutting off a
>> finger or two or maybe an entire hand for serious cases.
>>
>> Matt
>
>
> Your point of barbaric view is predictable given your irrational
> beliefs.

My beliefs are very rational. If you were a rational thinker you would
see that. Letting criminals virtually go free for their crimes is one
reason our crime rate is so high.

Matt

[Jim Logajan]

Matt Whiting > wrote:
> My beliefs are very rational. If you were a rational thinker you would
> see that. Letting criminals virtually go free for their crimes is one
> reason our crime rate is so high.

I submit I can find statistics showing a higher correlation between high
employment levels (a robust economy) and lower crime rate than any
correlation statistics you can find for tougher sentencing yielding lower
crime rate.

You ever read, or at least see one of the film versions of, Les Miserables
by Victor Hugo? Would you have insisted Jean Valjean have his fingers cut
off? You do know what his original offense was, don't you? And the original
sentence? No fair looking up the answer! :-)

Say - did you know the Fugitive Slave Law of 1850 required the return of
escaped slaves to their owners? A pretty clear cut law - so how would you
have handled a situation where you knew of an escaped slave?

[Matt Whiting]

Jim Logajan wrote:
> Matt Whiting > wrote:
>> My beliefs are very rational. If you were a rational thinker you would
>> see that. Letting criminals virtually go free for their crimes is one
>> reason our crime rate is so high.
>
> I submit I can find statistics showing a higher correlation between high
> employment levels (a robust economy) and lower crime rate than any
> correlation statistics you can find for tougher sentencing yielding lower
> crime rate.

I didn't say it was the only solution or even the best solution, just
part of the solution.


> You ever read, or at least see one of the film versions of, Les Miserables
> by Victor Hugo? Would you have insisted Jean Valjean have his fingers cut
> off? You do know what his original offense was, don't you? And the original
> sentence? No fair looking up the answer! :-)

No, I have not seen this film.


> Say - did you know the Fugitive Slave Law of 1850 required the return of
> escaped slaves to their owners? A pretty clear cut law - so how would you
> have handled a situation where you knew of an escaped slave?

I'm not familiar with that law as I'm not as old as you! :-)

Matt

[Jay Honeck]

> How do you feel about the millions of undocumented immigrants who
> illegally enter our nation? Do you think they should be lined up,
> bent over and raped? Is that the kind of nation you'd be proud to be
> part of?

No, that's too harsh. Just being sent home would be good enough for
me. Heck, I'd be happy if anyone in law enforcement even cared enough
to SCARE 'em a little. But that won't happen.

Back to this thread -- congrats on busting the punks! Personally, I'd
be in favor of the death penalty for crimes of this nature -- but
instead maybe they'll at least do some hard time and have to pay some
serious fines.

However, since they don't have any prior criminal records, they'll
probably just get "probation" and be right back at it within a few
months...

:-(
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> Why isn't incarceration alone fitting punishment for burglary? Why
> don't you see anal rape as falling under the "cruel and unusual" group
> of impermissible punishments?


It is my understanding this is not unusual at all in today's jails and prisons.
All the more reason not to do anything to get thrown into one.


> How do you feel about the millions of undocumented immigrants who
> illegally enter our nation? Do you think they should be lined up,
> bent over and raped? Is that the kind of nation you'd be proud to be
> part of?


You certainly seem to be fixated on rape. Any particular reason?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Montblack]

("Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote)
> You certainly seem to be fixated on rape. Any particular reason?


"Joey, you like movies about gladiators?"

"You ever been in a cockpit before?"
"No sir, I've never been up in a plane before."
"You ever ...seen a grown man naked?"

"Joey, did you ever hang around a gymnasium?"

"Joey, have you ever been ...in a, aTurkish prison?"


A: Someone had to do it ....!
B: (NAC) Necessary Aviation Content


P-Mont

[Larry Dighera]

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 23:28:24 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
<mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in
>:

>Larry Dighera wrote:
>> Why isn't incarceration alone fitting punishment for burglary? Why
>> don't you see anal rape as falling under the "cruel and unusual" group
>> of impermissible punishments?
>
>
>It is my understanding this is not unusual at all in today's jails and prisons.
>All the more reason not to do anything to get thrown into one.
>

So you think the US military's behavior in Abu Grave was appropriate?
You have no respect for the rule of law.

>
>> How do you feel about the millions of undocumented immigrants who
>> illegally enter our nation? Do you think they should be lined up,
>> bent over and raped? Is that the kind of nation you'd be proud to be
>> part of?
>
>
>You certainly seem to be fixated on rape. Any particular reason?

I'm reacting to this crass statement:

On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 20:22:36 -0000, wrote in
. com>:

>Well, now these young men get to find out what its like in an
ass->pounding prison...

Please try to keep up with the discussion.

Condoning lawlessness within the nation's prison systems is
reprehensible as it condones crime not the rule of law. Can't you see
that?

The intent of punishment for criminal behavior should be
rehabilitation, not vengeance. I believe restitution should play a
large role in sentencing. That way a criminal sees that s/he does not
benefit from their criminal acts, but compensates victims instead.

The chances of rehabilitating a first time offender through brutality
are nil. It only fosters resentment not contrition.

Of course, our privatized penal system offers no incentive to
rehabilitate criminals. Quite the contrary, it rewards contractors
like Wackenhut* for each inmate.


* http://www.g4s.com/usw/usw-services-government.htm

[Jon Kraus]

One of my all-time favorite movies... "Oh stewardess... I speak jive.."
:-)

Jon

Montblack wrote:
> ("Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote)
>
>>You certainly seem to be fixated on rape. Any particular reason?
>
>
>
> "Joey, you like movies about gladiators?"
>
> "You ever been in a cockpit before?"
> "No sir, I've never been up in a plane before."
> "You ever ...seen a grown man naked?"
>
> "Joey, did you ever hang around a gymnasium?"
>
> "Joey, have you ever been ...in a, aTurkish prison?"
>
>
> A: Someone had to do it ....!
> B: (NAC) Necessary Aviation Content
>
>
> P-Mont
>
>

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> Condoning lawlessness within the nation's prison systems is
> reprehensible as it condones crime not the rule of law.

I agree.

> The intent of punishment for criminal behavior should be
> rehabilitation, not vengeance.

Punishment is not necessarily vengeance.

Rehabilitation is not vengeance.

Tossing someone in jail also (should) have a side-effect of protecting
society from a criminal (at least until rehabilitated).

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Matt Whiting]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 23:28:24 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
> <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in
> >:
>
>> Larry Dighera wrote:
>>> Why isn't incarceration alone fitting punishment for burglary? Why
>>> don't you see anal rape as falling under the "cruel and unusual" group
>>> of impermissible punishments?
>>
>> It is my understanding this is not unusual at all in today's jails and prisons.
>> All the more reason not to do anything to get thrown into one.
>>
>
> So you think the US military's behavior in Abu Grave was appropriate?

Where? Never heard of any such place.

Matt

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 06:46:29 -0400, Bob Noel
> wrote in
>:

>In article >,
> Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>> Condoning lawlessness within the nation's prison systems is
>> reprehensible as it condones crime not the rule of law.
>
>I agree.
>

At last, the voice of reason. Thank you.

>> The intent of punishment for criminal behavior should be
>> rehabilitation, not vengeance.
>
>Punishment is not necessarily vengeance.
>
>Rehabilitation is not vengeance.
>

But intentionally permitting the anal rape of inmates to intensify the
repugnance of incarceration is a form of vengeance, IMO.

>Tossing someone in jail also (should) have a side-effect of protecting
>society from a criminal (at least until rehabilitated).

If the convicted criminal is removed from society and jailed, the
public is protected from that criminal until s/he is released. Or am
I overlooking something?

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:52:03 GMT, Matt Whiting >
wrote in >:

>> So you think the US military's behavior in Abu Grave was appropriate?
>
>Where? Never heard of any such place.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article739348.ece
US to close Abu Ghraib 'torture prison'

In a report leaked in April, 2004, Major General Antonia Taguba of
the US Army concluded that soldiers had committed "egregrious acts
and grave breaches of law". He reported "sadistic, blatant and
wanton ciminal abuses" of prisoners.

The most notorious case was that of Private Lynddie England who
was jailed for three years after a picture of her holding a naked
inmate on a dog lead was circulated around the world.

The subsequent political scandal caused tremendous damage to the
public image of the coalition forces, with critics arguing that it
was representative of a broader American attitude towards Iraqis.

Thousands of people are held on suspicion of guerrilla activity
for many months. The United Nations and Iraqi ministers have
complained that the system is an abuse of human rights.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Larry Dighera wrote:
>> Larry Dighera wrote:
>>> Why isn't incarceration alone fitting punishment for burglary? Why
>>> don't you see anal rape as falling under the "cruel and unusual" group
>>> of impermissible punishments?
>>
>>
>> It is my understanding this is not unusual at all in today's jails and
>> prisons. All the more reason not to do anything to get thrown into one.
>>
>
> So you think the US military's behavior in Abu Grave was appropriate?
> You have no respect for the rule of law.


You're changing the subject. 1) Abu Ghraib isn't in our country and Americans
aren't incarcerated there. 2) If any raping was going on in Abu Ghraib, it was
the Iraqis doing it. But now that you mention it, nobody can think of "cruel
and unusual punishments" like a Middle Easterner. In the scheme of things, the
GI guards acted very poorly (so we lost the moral high ground) but nobody
suffered anywhere nearly as much under the GI guards compared to Saddam's.
Humiliation just isn't in the same category with what those sadistic *******s
did every day there.


> I'm reacting to this crass statement:
>
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 20:22:36 -0000, wrote in
> . com>:
>
> >Well, now these young men get to find out what its like in an
> ass->pounding prison...
>
> Please try to keep up with the discussion.
>
> Condoning lawlessness within the nation's prison systems is
> reprehensible as it condones crime not the rule of law. Can't you see
> that?


Well, too bad. Don't want to enjoy a romantic interlude with Bubba tonight?
Don't hold up the 7-11 today.


> The intent of punishment for criminal behavior should be
> rehabilitation, not vengeance. I believe restitution should play a
> large role in sentencing. That way a criminal sees that s/he does not
> benefit from their criminal acts, but compensates victims instead.


A fine idea. Who shall the criminal rob to come up with the compensation?


> The chances of rehabilitating a first time offender through brutality
> are nil. It only fosters resentment not contrition.


If it were the guards doing the brutality, I'd say you were right. But it's the
inmates themselves. If they want to avoid feeling resentful, they can stop
beating, killing and raping each other. But they're criminals... they can't
help themselves. Frankly, I don't care about whether they're rehabilitated.
It's enough that they're removed from society. And frankly, unpleasant
consequences can have a preventative effect, if the criminal believes he might
actually get caught.

We all have choices. We can be good citizens and leave others the hell alone,
or we can be predators. If you choose to be a predator, you deserve whatever
happens to you. I've managed to stay out of jail my whole life. How? I stay
out of other's property when I'm not invited; I don't drive drunk; I don't
assault my fellow citizens. Actually, it's been pretty easy.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Jay Honeck]

> Condoning lawlessness within the nation's prison systems is
> reprehensible as it condones crime not the rule of law. Can't you see
> that?

I firmly believe that the reason no one cares (much) about prison rape
is because our criminal justice system is seen by the majority as
hopelessly broken. Too many perps walk on a technicality, too many
sentences are reduced, too many prisons are seen as country clubs.
(You could book a prisoner in our "Red Baron Suite" for less than what
we pay per prisoner, nowadays...)

In short, "punishment" has become a joke, so by the time someone
finally DOES serve hard time, they are really, REALLY bad people that
garner little sympathy.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 06:05:07 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote in om>:

>I firmly believe that the reason no one cares (much) about prison rape
>is because our criminal justice system is seen by the majority as
>hopelessly broken.



"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be
ruled by evil men." -- Plato

[Jose]

> (You could book a prisoner in our "Red Baron Suite" for less than what
> we pay per prisoner, nowadays...)

How would you keep him there?

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[BDS[_2_]]

"Jose" > wrote
> > (You could book a prisoner in our "Red Baron Suite" for less than what
> > we pay per prisoner, nowadays...)
>
> How would you keep him there?

They would like it so much that they wouldn't want to leave. :>)

BDS

[[email protected]]

On Jun 10, 1:50 am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 20:22:36 -0000, wrote in
> . com>:
>
> >Well, now these young men get to find out what its like in an ass-
> >pounding prison...
>
> So, in your mind the just punishment for burglary is anal rape?

Larry,

So I take it you never saw the movie "Office Space"... you obviously
don't get the humor reference.

Dean

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:10:05 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
<mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in
>:

>Well, too bad. Don't want to enjoy a romantic interlude with Bubba tonight?
>Don't hold up the 7-11 today.

I'd say you may benefit from having your moral compass reswung.
Clearly there is something causing it to deviate from the ethical and
just.

>
>> The intent of punishment for criminal behavior should be
>> rehabilitation, not vengeance. I believe restitution should play a
>> large role in sentencing. That way a criminal sees that s/he does not
>> benefit from their criminal acts, but compensates victims instead.
>
>
>A fine idea. Who shall the criminal rob to come up with the compensation?
>

http://www.cdc.state.ca.us/Victims/docs/Prison_Restitution_Survey.pdf
Increase the rate of restitution garnishment from inmates.The CDCR
collects restitution by garnishing inmate wages and trust
account deposits. Restitution garnishment rates have increased
from 20% in 2000 to 40% in 2005. In addition, regulations have
been adopted to increase them to 50% in January of 2007
(California Administrative Code, Title 15, Section 3097).Increases
in overall collections as a result of the increases in restitution
garnishment rates have been realized, as shown in the chart on
page 3




http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/publications/bulletins/legalseries/bulletin5/4.html
Attachment of State Payments to the Defendant

Some states allow by statute various state payments, which
ordinarily would first go to the defendant, to be used to satisfy
restitution orders. For example, Maryland and Wisconsin laws allow
a defendant’s lottery prize to be used to pay restitution.18 Iowa
requires that any witness fees paid to an inmate be applied toward
restitution.19 In Tennessee, 15 percent of the amount raised by
the sale of inmate arts and crafts must be applied to
restitution.20 Several states provide that whenever a prisoner is
awarded damages in a civil suit, the award must be used to pay
restitution.21

In Montana, any time a prisoner accumulates more than $200 in his
or her prison inmate trust account, the excess is forfeited and
used to pay any outstanding restitution.22 Similarly, Iowa law
requires its director of corrections to deduct restitution
payments, according to the inmate’s restitution plan, from the
inmate’s account, which consists of money received by the inmate
from any source.23

In some states, a defendant’s bond may be used to satisfy a
restitution order.24 Under an Illinois appellate court ruling,
courts may order that bond proceeds be applied to restitution even
when someone other than the defendant provided the money.25

Wages From Prison Work Programs

By law, many prison work programs must direct a portion of the
offender’s wages to the payment of restitution.26 Some statutes
apply only to programs within the prison,27 others to programs run
by private industry using prison labor,28 and still others to
work-release programs.29 Because California law requires a
deduction from prison wages for the payment of restitution, a
California appellate court has ruled that trial courts may presume
the payment of restitution from prison wages unless evidence shows
that a defendant would be ineligible.30

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:14:11 -0000, wrote in
. com>:

>On Jun 10, 1:50 am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 20:22:36 -0000, wrote in
>> . com>:
>>
>> >Well, now these young men get to find out what its like in an ass-
>> >pounding prison...
>>
>> So, in your mind the just punishment for burglary is anal rape?
>
>Larry,
>
>So I take it you never saw the movie "Office Space"... you obviously
>don't get the humor reference.
>

I don't find condoning criminality humorous. Leno and other comedians
make similar references with impunity, but it undermines our nation's
sense of justice, and is a disservice.

If you don't want to be taken literally, I respectfully suggest you
append a :-) to your comments.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:10:05 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
> <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in
> >:
>
>> Well, too bad. Don't want to enjoy a romantic interlude with Bubba tonight?
>> Don't hold up the 7-11 today.
>
> I'd say you may benefit from having your moral compass reswung.
> Clearly there is something causing it to deviate from the ethical and
> just.


There's nothing wrong with my ethical compass. I don't take what belongs to
others and have no sympathy for those that do. As I said, we all get to make
choices. Nobody forces them to prey on society.


>>> The intent of punishment for criminal behavior should be
>>> rehabilitation, not vengeance. I believe restitution should play a
>>> large role in sentencing. That way a criminal sees that s/he does not
>>> benefit from their criminal acts, but compensates victims instead.
>>
>>
>> A fine idea. Who shall the criminal rob to come up with the compensation?
>>
>
> http://www.cdc.state.ca.us/Victims/docs/Prison_Restitution_Survey.pdf
> Increase the rate of restitution garnishment from inmates.The CDCR
> collects restitution by garnishing inmate wages and trust
> account deposits.


You listed a bunch of stuff I deleted simply for brevity. While they list many
different ways restitution can be made, I would suggest that an inmate's ability
to generate income is extremely limited. Don't they pay them pennies an hour
for the work they do while they're in the slammer? Even if they took every
penny, it would take them many lifetimes to earn enough to satisfy any
significant restitution order.

Of course, on the outside, they can steal enough to satisfy it in short order if
they get busy visiting our fellow citizens. That's not acceptable in my book.
Maybe you're the one who needs his compass swung.

I am curious where all this sympathy for prisoners comes from. Somebody close
to you been incarcerated? How about you?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[[email protected]]

On Jun 11, 8:51 am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:14:11 -0000, wrote in
> . com>:
>
> >On Jun 10, 1:50 am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> >> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 20:22:36 -0000, wrote in
> >> . com>:
>
> >> >Well, now these young men get to find out what its like in an ass-
> >> >pounding prison...
>
> >> So, in your mind the just punishment for burglary is anal rape?
>
> >Larry,
>
> >So I take it you never saw the movie "Office Space"... you obviously
> >don't get the humor reference.
>
> I don't find condoning criminality humorous. Leno and other comedians
> make similar references with impunity, but it undermines our nation's
> sense of justice, and is a disservice.
>
> If you don't want to be taken literally, I respectfully suggest you
> append a :-) to your comments.

Larry, I think your underwear are too tight... :-)

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 11:58:05 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
<mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in
>:

>I am curious where all this sympathy for prisoners comes from.

Reread what I wrote, and cite those portions in which you feel I'm
being sympathetic toward prisoners. You won't find any.

The issue I'm attempting to raise is that condoning criminal behavior
undermines our nation's justice system. It's not about sympathy for
prisoners; it's about humane and just treatment for my fellow man, the
dignity of our nation, and judicial due process.

Would you empower criminals to rob us of that by turning a blind eye
to crimes committed in prisons?

With the corruption rampant in Congress, and the blatant disregard for
Constitutional protections by the Executive branch, the Judicial
branch was the last bastion of respectability. When the people lose
respect for the law, the nation will be ripe for revolution.

>Somebody close to you been incarcerated?

Nope. How about you?

>How about you?

I've never been in jail nor charged with anything other than the
occasional motor vehicle infraction.

How about you?

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 09:06:59 -0700, wrote in
om>:

>
>Larry, I think your underwear are too tight... :-)


I think you, and the majority of the citizens of our nation, fail to
perceive the trend of our government toward corruption, and disregard
for justice and Constitutional provisions.

I was vocal about Bush's unsuitability for the office of President
even before he was elected (check the archived messages in this
newsgroup). Many admonished me for airing my views, but his record
has vindicated my warnings. And I'm again attempting to raise
consciousness of the worrying trend in public opinion and governmental
policy.

It is you young fellows that will have to suffer the consequences, not
an old timer like me. Think about it.


There is no expedient to which a man will not resort
to avoid the real labor of thinking.
-- Sir Joshua Reynolds

[john smith[_2_]]

In article >,
Bob Noel > wrote:

> Tossing someone in jail also (should) have a side-effect of protecting
> society from a criminal (at least until rehabilitated).

Are you using Paris Hilton as an example?

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Larry Dighera wrote:
>> Somebody close to you been incarcerated?
>
> Nope. How about you?


Nope.


>> How about you?
>
> I've never been in jail nor charged with anything other than the
> occasional motor vehicle infraction.
>
> How about you?


Still nope. Like I said, life is all about choices. Mine have kept me out of
jail, though like you I have a heavy right foot.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

john smith wrote:
> In article >,
> Bob Noel > wrote:
>
>> Tossing someone in jail also (should) have a side-effect of protecting
>> society from a criminal (at least until rehabilitated).
>
> Are you using Paris Hilton as an example?


For the next 5 weeks or so we won't have to worry about meeting her on a dark
highway after she's had a snoot full. After that, who knows? With any luck she
will have become educated to the consequences of ignoring the DUI statutes... or
the judge.

None of us stays young and stupid forever. She could change.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 13:25:49 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
<mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in
>:

>I have a heavy right foot.

I have heard that is common among pilots, but I have no credible
evidence to support it.

[RST Engineering]

No, but some of us get old and stupid and that ain't going to last forever
either.

Jim

--
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."
--James Dean


"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...

>
> None of us stays young and stupid forever.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Here's the problem Larry. If the criminal justice system were to do what
would be required to stop prison rapes and other assaults and crime in
prison, the liberals in the country would be calling that and assault on the
rights of those in prison. Prison is a bad place and it is supposed to be.
It is full of bad people and it is supposed to be.

The only real fix for prisoner on prisoner crime is to work them so hard
that when they are not working they sleep.

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-06-09 13:22:36 -0700, said:

>
> Well, now these young men get to find out what its like in an ass-
> pounding prison...

If you are going to lock people up, you have an obligation to protect
them, both from themselves and from others. It is one of the main
reasons we lock them up in the first place.

Like so much of society, the penal system is breaking down.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Gig 601XL Builder]

C J Campbell wrote:
> On 2007-06-09 13:22:36 -0700, said:
>
>>
>> Well, now these young men get to find out what its like in an ass-
>> pounding prison...
>
> If you are going to lock people up, you have an obligation to protect
> them, both from themselves and from others. It is one of the main
> reasons we lock them up in the first place.
>

What would be required to do that would have the criminal rights people
screaming.

[Montblack]

wrote)
> Larry, I think your underwear are too tight... :-)


Larry has some issues with prison rape, and so you just had to go with the
underwear reference?

BTW, for dinner tonight ....fresh fish.


P-Mont
<http://www.prisonflicks.com/genres.php?filmGenreID=1&sortVar=filmReviewDate&sortDir=down>
Women in Prison movies

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 13:10:22 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
<wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in
>:

>
>Here's the problem Larry. If the criminal justice system were to do what
>would be required to stop prison rapes and other assaults and crime in
>prison, the liberals in the country would be calling that and assault on the
>rights of those in prison.

What is it that YOU feel would be required to enforce the laws in
prisons?

>Prison is a bad place and it is supposed to be.

Are you able to cite any authoritative or even credible information
that supports your assertion?

>It is full of bad people and it is supposed to be.

Of if it were only so simple as you paint it.

There are a lot of people incarcerated for possession of illicit
substances who don't belong in prison; they belong in rehab. In fact,
it is my understanding, that over half of our nation's prison
population are there for violations of drug laws.

Do you feel that Scooter Liby, Duke Cunningham, and Paris Hilton are
"bad" (whatever you definition of 'bad' is) people, and that it's
appropriate for them to be anally raped as part of their sentence?

Personally, I would classify Charles Manson as bad, and John Hinkley
as deranged, not necessarily bad, drug users as sick, and a good
portion of those in jail as mentally defective. Each classification
requires different treatment, but none deserve to be abused.

>The only real fix for prisoner on prisoner crime is to work them so hard
>that when they are not working they sleep.

Perhaps.

The real fix is to purge the jails of those inmates who are
incarcerated for victimless crimes, so that there would be adequate
penal facilities to separate the violent criminals from the general
inmate population and it would free prison personnel to enforce the
laws. But that's not going to happen as long as the religious right
is in power, Congress is corrupt, and the general population is so
uneducated and apathetic as to be unconcerned with injustice.

[RST Engineering]

Would'ja check the tense on that verb? I think "has broken" is more
descriptive.

Jim

--
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."
--James Dean


"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
news:2007061112153543658-christophercampbell@hotmailcom...


>
> Like so much of society, the penal system is breaking down.

[[email protected]]

On Jun 11, 1:24 pm, "Montblack" <Y4_NOT!...
> wrote:
> wrote)
>
> > Larry, I think your underwear are too tight... :-)
>
> Larry has some issues with prison rape, and so you just had to go with the
> underwear reference?
>
> BTW, for dinner tonight ....fresh fish.
>
> P-Mont
> <http://www.prisonflicks.com/genres.php?filmGenreID=1&sortVar=filmRevi...>
> Women in Prison movies

But I used a smiley!

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> Do you feel that Scooter Liby, Duke Cunningham, and Paris Hilton are
> "bad" (whatever you definition of 'bad' is) people, and that it's
> appropriate for them to be anally raped as part of their sentence?


I don't place them in the same category as their crimes are very different.
Hilton's a drunk driver... she's in the women's section of a county jail where
she's unlikely to get raped.... no men there to do it.

Scooter Libby exceeded his power as a public servant and I doubt he's going to
Buttslammer Prison. A Club Fed is more likely for him if he ever serves a day
before Bush pardons him.

As for Duke Cunningham, he's a special case. He's a Congressman who not only
abused his position, he took bribes. After years of ****ing us, I have no
problem with him getting a little of that back from his fellow prisoners. So
sad, too bad. I can think of a few other public servants who deserve to join
him. They shouldn't have stolen.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Matt Whiting]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:52:03 GMT, Matt Whiting >
> wrote in >:
>
>>> So you think the US military's behavior in Abu Grave was appropriate?
>> Where? Never heard of any such place.
>
>
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article739348.ece
> US to close Abu Ghraib 'torture prison'
>
> In a report leaked in April, 2004, Major General Antonia Taguba of
> the US Army concluded that soldiers had committed "egregrious acts
> and grave breaches of law". He reported "sadistic, blatant and
> wanton ciminal abuses" of prisoners.
>
> The most notorious case was that of Private Lynddie England who
> was jailed for three years after a picture of her holding a naked
> inmate on a dog lead was circulated around the world.
>
> The subsequent political scandal caused tremendous damage to the
> public image of the coalition forces, with critics arguing that it
> was representative of a broader American attitude towards Iraqis.
>
> Thousands of people are held on suspicion of guerrilla activity
> for many months. The United Nations and Iraqi ministers have
> complained that the system is an abuse of human rights.
>

If you meant Abu Ghraib, why did you write Abu Grave?

Matt

[Don Tuite]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 13:30:11 -0700, "RST Engineering"
> wrote:

>Would'ja check the tense on that verb? I think "has broken" is more
>descriptive.
>
How can it be broken down? Look at all the people in jail!

Don

[Matt Whiting]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> Here's the problem Larry. If the criminal justice system were to do what
> would be required to stop prison rapes and other assaults and crime in
> prison, the liberals in the country would be calling that and assault on the
> rights of those in prison. Prison is a bad place and it is supposed to be.
> It is full of bad people and it is supposed to be.
>
> The only real fix for prisoner on prisoner crime is to work them so hard
> that when they are not working they sleep.

I agree that this would be a much better approach that allowing them to
watch TV and lounge in the law library.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 13:10:22 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
> <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in
> >:
>
>> Here's the problem Larry. If the criminal justice system were to do what
>> would be required to stop prison rapes and other assaults and crime in
>> prison, the liberals in the country would be calling that and assault on the
>> rights of those in prison.
>
> What is it that YOU feel would be required to enforce the laws in
> prisons?
>
>> Prison is a bad place and it is supposed to be.
>
> Are you able to cite any authoritative or even credible information
> that supports your assertion?

Are you?


>> The only real fix for prisoner on prisoner crime is to work them so hard
>> that when they are not working they sleep.
>
> Perhaps.

Perhaps? Grow a spine.


> The real fix is to purge the jails of those inmates who are
> incarcerated for victimless crimes, so that there would be adequate
> penal facilities to separate the violent criminals from the general
> inmate population and it would free prison personnel to enforce the
> laws. But that's not going to happen as long as the religious right
> is in power, Congress is corrupt, and the general population is so
> uneducated and apathetic as to be unconcerned with injustice.

What is a victimless crime? I'm sure you are going to say smoking pot,
but I have my rebuttal ready. :-)


Matt

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
john smith > wrote:

> > Tossing someone in jail also (should) have a side-effect of protecting
> > society from a criminal (at least until rehabilitated).
>
> Are you using Paris Hilton as an example?

NO

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Jay Honeck]

> > (You could book a prisoner in our "Red Baron Suite" for less than what
> > we pay per prisoner, nowadays...)
>
> How would you keep him there?

Uh, well, obviously you haven't stayed in our Red Baron Suite.
Jacuzzi hot tub, full kitchen, delivered breakfast each morning,
balcony overlooking Rwy 25, maid service...

Personally, I wouldn't mind staying there forever...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Personally, I would classify Charles Manson as bad, and John Hinkley
> as deranged, not necessarily bad, drug users as sick, and a good
> portion of those in jail as mentally defective. Each classification
> requires different treatment, but none deserve to be abused.

Larry, let's talk turkey here. This problem was entirely created by
liberal (what a stupid, inaccurate name!) politicians who -- in the
name of "personal rights" -- have made it completely impossible to
commit someone to a mental hospital against their will.

Because it would be a violation of their personal "rights" to send
them to a place where they can get the help they so desperately need,
they are placed in "out-patient care" -- with no enforcement or
repercussions if they don't show up for treatment.

And, of course, they don't show up. Nor do they take their meds,
which make them feel worse, not better.

So, what happens to these people? They fall through the cracks of
society. After years of drug or alcohol abuse, they are so damaged
that they are incapable of holding a job. Their abuse also triggers
long bouts of deep depression, when they are completely unable to
function in society.

With no real help available (again, thanks to the "liberal"
politicians, who have closed all the mental hospitals) they have two
very real, very awful choices: Starve, or steal. We all know what
their activity of choice is -- you or I would make the same choice.

They then end up in prison, mixed in with the truly awful, truly
violent criminals. It's a horrible, awful, terribly unfair system that
has been ENTIRELY created by well-meaning people just like YOU, who
thought that the minor abuses then taking place in the mental
hospitals merited their complete and utter elimination.

Blaming this on "Bush" or the "Religious Right" is so completely
illogical, and so completely ludicrous, that I just had to speak up.
This problem is just one of many stemming from Lyndon Johnson's "Great
Society", which wreaked havoc on so much of our nation -- all done
with the best of intentions by naive, inexperienced -- no, let's say
it like it is -- STUPID people.

Why/how do I know all this? Because I've got a 57-year old drug and
alcohol-dependent sister who has spent much of her adult life in and
out of "treatment programs", and is now facing prison time for repeat
drunken driving.

She's lost her home, her career, her husband, her son, and everything
she held dear, thanks to her illness. Over the years our family has
tried on multiple occasions to get her the help she so desperately
needed, to no avail.

Under the system folks like you created, her "rights" as a mentally
ill person have guaranteed her a life of living hell. Because she
can't be committed, no help is possible until she demands it -- and
waiting for a mentally ill person to recognize that they need help can
be a long wait, indeed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



>
> >The only real fix for prisoner on prisoner crime is to work them so hard
> >that when they are not working they sleep.
>
> Perhaps.
>
> The real fix is to purge the jails of those inmates who are
> incarcerated for victimless crimes, so that there would be adequate
> penal facilities to separate the violent criminals from the general
> inmate population and it would free prison personnel to enforce the
> laws. But that's not going to happen as long as the religious right
> is in power, Congress is corrupt, and the general population is so
> uneducated and apathetic as to be unconcerned with injustice.

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
> Uh, well, obviously you haven't stayed in our Red Baron Suite.
> Jacuzzi hot tub, full kitchen, delivered breakfast each morning,
> balcony overlooking Rwy 25, maid service...


>> How would you keep him there?

I was going to suggest this tried and true solution:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065051/
Support Your Local Sheriff (1969)

(Jason McCullough) "Gentlemen, do we have a jail here?"

(Mayor Olly Perkins) "Do we have a jail? A brand new one with two cells
that the whole community pitched in and built last month!"

(Fred Johnson) "Just like a barn raising."

(Henry Jackson) "Even the dancehall girls showed up. They made sandwiches
and carried on like crazy."

(Mayor Olly Perkins) "It was designed to be practically escape proof."

(Jason McCullough) "Well, good, because I think I'm going to have to throw
a couple of people in it."

(Mayor Olly Perkins) "There's only one thing. This new jail is sure got
everything."

(Fred Johnson) "Even a new stove with a coffee pot already on it."

(Mayor Olly Perkins) "The only thing it hasn't got is iron bars for the
cells."

[....later]

(Joe Danby) "You expect me to sit here in this lousy cell on that..."

[notices the red paint drippings on the floor]
(Joe Danby) "What is that red stuff all over the floor there?"

(Jason McCullough) "Oh, uh..."

[waves his boot over the paint]
(Jason McCullough) "...that's the poor fella that crossed the line earlier
today."

[...and later, still]

(Joe Danby) "Pa, you always told me there wasn't a jail been built that
could hold a Danby."

(Pa Danby) "Well, now they've built one!"

(Joe Danby) "Aww."

(Pa Danby) "You'll have to stay here for a couple of days."

(Joe Danby) "But we run this town."

(Pa Danby) "I gotta throw in with that sheriff that you don't exactly
dazzle nobody with your intelligence."


P-Mont

[Jose]

>>Are you using Paris Hilton as an example?

> With any luck she consequences of ignoring the DUI statutes... or
> will have become educated to the the judge.
>
> None of us stays young and stupid forever. She could change.

Is she likely to change faster than ordinary citizens?

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose]

> What is a victimless crime? I'm sure you are going to say smoking pot, but I have my rebuttal ready. :-)

I'll bite. Who's the victim there, and how is it different from smoking
tobacco or drinking wine?

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose]

> Uh, well, obviously you haven't stayed in our Red Baron Suite.
> Jacuzzi hot tub, full kitchen, delivered breakfast each morning,
> balcony overlooking Rwy 25, maid service...

Well, that's a great life for a prisoner. I bet you even have a comfy
chair, and soft pillows!

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose]

> I was going to suggest this tried and true solution:
> Support Your Local Sheriff (1969)

Yes, a classic. :)

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 19:55:26 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote in . com>:

>With no real help available (again, thanks to the "liberal"
>politicians, who have closed all the mental hospitals) they have two
>very real, very awful choices: Starve, or steal. We all know what
>their activity of choice is -- you or I would make the same choice.
>

Now I don't know if you'd call then California Governor Ronald Reagan
a liberal, but it was he who doubled the state militia, and emptied
the state mental hospitals in California. Up until that time I never
saw homeless on the streets.

It's convenient for you to blame the "liberals," but it's seems
contrary to the facts:

http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-06-08-04-epr.htm
For example, during his tenure as governor here in California he
closed most of the state mental hospitals. He and his advisors
recognized that the advent of psychotropic drugs made it possible
to control many of the symptoms of serious mental illnesses such
schizophrenia, and to allow those suffering from these diseases to
function again in society.

He convinced the legislature (controlled at the time by Democrats)
that it would be cheaper, more humane, and more effective to treat
the mentally ill in community "half-way houses". The legislature,
with some help from civil libertarians, bought into the idea and
closed many of the state mental hospitals. This trend eventually
worked its way across the country. Unfortunately, the money
needed to set up community mental health clinics never
materialized at the level needed for an effective system; and,
changes in the laws championed by advocates for the mentally ill
made it nearly impossible to force mentally ill individuals to
remain on needed medications. The unintended consequence of
Reagan's no doubt sincere efforts to reduce government
expenditures for the mentally ill and to provide them more humane
treatment surrounds us every day. A significant part of our
homeless population is comprised of mentally ill people who do not
take their medication on a regular basis, and who do not receive
the support that they need to cope with the stresses of everyday
life.





http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/mentally_ill/stories/jails5.html
During the Reagan Administration's budget-cutting drive in the
1980's, the federal government slashed funding for such programs,
Teplin points out. "In 1975 it was around ten dollars per
capita—and these figures are in constant dollars. By 1992 that
dropped to just over five dollars per capita. Now, theoretically,
state governments were supposed to pick up the slack but in
reality they simply have not."



http://www.hscareers.com/news/articles.asp?id=529
Seattle Post-Intelligencer
Tuesday, December 02, 2003

Seattle Post-Intelligencer - November 26, 2003

These two are not alone. The American Psychiatric Association has
estimated that as many as one in five of those behind bars has a
serious mental illness.

Some 300,000 people in U.S. prisons suffer from mental disorders
ranging from major depression and post-traumatic stress to
schizophrenia - three to four times more than the number in
mental- health hospitals. In a recent report, Human Rights Watch
argued that the penal system is "not only serving as a warehouse
for the mentally ill but is also acting as an incubator for worse
illness and psychiatric breakdowns."

Fifty years ago, says HRW, more than half a million Americans
lived in public psychiatric hospitals. Today, proper hospitals
house fewer than 80,000 people.

This is largely a sign of progress. The development of new drugs
has made it possible for the mentally ill to be treated outside a
hospital. And there is far better legal protection to prevent
people from being locked up against their will.

Nevertheless, things have not gone according to plan. When many of
the country's mental-health hospitals were shut down in the '60s,
the idea was that patients would be looked after by local health
systems. Instead, the mentally ill often have little access to
treatment, and many have ended up on the streets. According to the
National Resource Center on Homelessness and Mental Illness, up to
one in four homeless people has a serious mental illness.

Once on the streets, and with only meager health care, it is often
only a matter of time before a mentally ill person commits a crime
and is sent to jail.

For instance, the number of mentally ill in Santa Clara County's
jails jumped by 300 percent in the four years after a nearby
California state hospital closed down. Another study showed that
the arrest rate of mentally ill people rose fivefold in the first
eight years after the rules tightened about who was allowed into
mental hospitals.

Tougher sentencing policies are also pushing mentally ill people
toward prison. The United States' prison population has more than
quadrupled over the past 20 years, largely because of the war on
drugs.

[Ken Finney]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Personally, I would classify Charles Manson as bad, and John Hinkley
>> as deranged, not necessarily bad, drug users as sick, and a good
>> portion of those in jail as mentally defective. Each classification
>> requires different treatment, but none deserve to be abused.
>
> Larry, let's talk turkey here. This problem was entirely created by
> liberal (what a stupid, inaccurate name!) politicians who -- in the
> name of "personal rights" -- have made it completely impossible to
> commit someone to a mental hospital against their will.
>
> Because it would be a violation of their personal "rights" to send
> them to a place where they can get the help they so desperately need,
> they are placed in "out-patient care" -- with no enforcement or
> repercussions if they don't show up for treatment.
>
> And, of course, they don't show up. Nor do they take their meds,
> which make them feel worse, not better.
>
> So, what happens to these people? They fall through the cracks of
> society. After years of drug or alcohol abuse, they are so damaged
> that they are incapable of holding a job. Their abuse also triggers
> long bouts of deep depression, when they are completely unable to
> function in society.
>
> With no real help available (again, thanks to the "liberal"
> politicians, who have closed all the mental hospitals) they have two
> very real, very awful choices: Starve, or steal. We all know what
> their activity of choice is -- you or I would make the same choice.
>
> They then end up in prison, mixed in with the truly awful, truly
> violent criminals. It's a horrible, awful, terribly unfair system that
> has been ENTIRELY created by well-meaning people just like YOU, who
> thought that the minor abuses then taking place in the mental
> hospitals merited their complete and utter elimination.
>
> Blaming this on "Bush" or the "Religious Right" is so completely
> illogical, and so completely ludicrous, that I just had to speak up.
> This problem is just one of many stemming from Lyndon Johnson's "Great
> Society", which wreaked havoc on so much of our nation -- all done
> with the best of intentions by naive, inexperienced -- no, let's say
> it like it is -- STUPID people.
>
> Why/how do I know all this? Because I've got a 57-year old drug and
> alcohol-dependent sister who has spent much of her adult life in and
> out of "treatment programs", and is now facing prison time for repeat
> drunken driving.
>
> She's lost her home, her career, her husband, her son, and everything
> she held dear, thanks to her illness. Over the years our family has
> tried on multiple occasions to get her the help she so desperately
> needed, to no avail.
>
> Under the system folks like you created, her "rights" as a mentally
> ill person have guaranteed her a life of living hell. Because she
> can't be committed, no help is possible until she demands it -- and
> waiting for a mentally ill person to recognize that they need help can
> be a long wait, indeed.

< snip >

Jay, I feel your pain (literally) because of similar situation in my family.
There was a fairly in-depth discussion of this topic on one of the other
newsgroups I frequent. IIRC, the peak of mental incarcerations occured in
1953, and the closing of such facilities was been more or less linear since
then. So one can't really blame
Bush/Clinton/Bush/Reagan/Carter/Ford/Nixon/Johnson/Kennedy/Eisenhour unless
you blame them all. And it was a Supreme Court decision that people
couldn't be commited unless there was clearly demonstrated that they were a
danger to themselves or others that caused the sharp increase in homeless
people in the 1980s. If people realized how many people used to be locked
up in mental institutions, they would be shocked. I can imagine the attacks
from both the "left" and the "right" if Bush proposed a Constitutional
Amendment to allow people to be locked up "for their own good", but I be for
it. When these people aren't locked up, the rest of us are the ones that
live in virtual prisons.

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-06-10 00:50:53 -0700, Larry Dighera > said:

> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 20:22:36 -0000, wrote in
> . com>:
>
>> Well, now these young men get to find out what its like in an ass-
>> pounding prison...
>
> So, in your mind the just punishment for burglary is anal rape?

I think my own objection to the reference is that, in my view, prisons
are supposed to be used to prevent crime, not enable it. Making prisons
a safe haven for criminals to conduct their criminal acts does not seem
to me to be a particularly constructive approach.

The predators in prisons need to be isolated from the rest of the
population, if necessary. They are not a legitimate part of the
'punishment' of imprisonment.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor