Re: Fuel prices--BTU's per gal.

[jerry wass]

Hate to disagree. but there are more BYU's in a GALLON of Avgas than in
a GALLON of Mogas. Why?? Avgas weighs more per Gallon...

Most fuel type hydrocarbons have nearly the same BTU's per Lb.

[Wayne Paul]

"Jerry Wass" > wrote in message
. net...
> Hate to disagree. but there are more BYU's in a GALLON of Avgas than in a
> GALLON of Mogas. Why?? Avgas weighs more per Gallon...
>
> Most fuel type hydrocarbons have nearly the same BTU's per Lb.

More BYUs? Let see...BYU, BYU Hawaii, and BYU Idaho. How do you get all of
those universities in a gallon of avgas?

[Wayne Paul]

"Jerry Wass" > wrote in message
. net...
> Hate to disagree. but there are more BYU's in a GALLON of Avgas than in a
> GALLON of Mogas. Why?? Avgas weighs more per Gallon...
>
> Most fuel type hydrocarbons have nearly the same BTU's per Lb.

More BYUs? Let see...BYU, BYU Hawaii, and BYU Idaho. How do you get all of
those universities in a gallon of avgas?

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Jerry Wass" > wrote

> Hate to disagree. but there are more BYU's in a GALLON of Avgas than in a
> GALLON of Mogas. Why?? Avgas weighs more per Gallon...
>
> Most fuel type hydrocarbons have nearly the same BTU's per Lb.

I may have to back up off of that statement, and I'll tell you my (possible)
faulty reasoning.

Generally, the more refined, higher octane fuel will have less BTU content.

I "forgot" to take into account that the primary way that 100LL gets its
high octane rating is by the use of lead. That throws things off a little
bit.
--
Jim in NC

[Peter Dohm]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jerry Wass" > wrote
>
> > Hate to disagree. but there are more BYU's in a GALLON of Avgas than in
a
> > GALLON of Mogas. Why?? Avgas weighs more per Gallon...
> >
> > Most fuel type hydrocarbons have nearly the same BTU's per Lb.
>
> I may have to back up off of that statement, and I'll tell you my
(possible)
> faulty reasoning.
>
> Generally, the more refined, higher octane fuel will have less BTU
content.
>
> I "forgot" to take into account that the primary way that 100LL gets its
> high octane rating is by the use of lead. That throws things off a little
> bit.
> --
> Jim in NC
>
>
Very true, although I don't know enough chemistry to understand just why the
fuels with the higher octane number are generally less dense. Fortunately,
the lead is probably a small fraction of one percent of the fuel by weight.
However, in the case of Mogas, the addition of unknown quantities of so
called oxigenates, such as ethanol, the energy content per unit is reduced
by some amount.

When measuring fuel by volume (usually gallons or litres) the ethanol is
said to contain approximately 60% of the energy of gasolene--that is simply
the relationship which I have heard/read consistently repeated. Thus, Mogas
that contains 10% ethanol should contain about 96% as much energy as "real"
gasolene.

When measuring by weight, I suspect that the result is slightly worse. My
recollection from physics class is that an oxigen atom is about the same
size as a carbon atom and slightly heavier; so that the ethanol should be
slightly heavier by volume. However, the oxigen atom contributes nothing to
energy content--since ample oxigen is readily available from the air.
Therefore, with the caveat that my knowledge of molecular structure and
density is not strong; the effect of ethanol on energy content by weight is
probably worse than by volume. As a guess, Mogas that is 10% ethanol by
volume probably contains about 95% as much energy, per pound or per
kilogram, compared to "real" gasolene--despite being more hygroscopic and
(so they say) also slightly more expensive to produce.

Peter

[Barnyard BOb]

Jerry Wass wrote:

>Hate to disagree. but there are more BYU's in a GALLON of Avgas than in
>a GALLON of Mogas. Why?? Avgas weighs more per Gallon...
>
>Most fuel type hydrocarbons have nearly the same BTU's per Lb.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Energy content

Gasoline contains about 34.6 megajoules per litre (MJ/l) or 131 MJ/US
gallon. This is an average, gasoline blends differ, therefore actual
energy content varies from season to season and from batch to batch,
as much as 4% more or less than the average, according to the US EPA.


Fuel type BTU/US gal Research octane

Regular Gasoline 125,000 Min 91

Aviation gasoline 120,200


- Barnyard BOb -

[Barnyard BOb]

On Mon, 28 May 2007 00:27:21 GMT, Jerry Wass >
wrote:

>Hate to disagree. but there are more BYU's in a GALLON of Avgas than in
>a GALLON of Mogas. Why?? Avgas weighs more per Gallon...
>
>Most fuel type hydrocarbons have nearly the same BTU's per Lb.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Energy content

Gasoline contains about 34.6 megajoules per litre (MJ/l) or 131 MJ/US
gallon. This is an average, gasoline blends differ, therefore actual
energy content varies from season to season and from batch to batch,
as much as 4% more or less than the average, according to the US EPA.


Fuel type BTU/US gal Research octane

Regular Gasoline 125,000 Min 91
Aviation gasoline 120,200


BTU/US gal
Gasohol (10% ethanol + 90% gasoline) 120,900
( Research octane) 93/94


- Barnyard BOb -

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Barnyard BOb" <> wrote

> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

> Fuel type BTU/US gal Research octane
>
> Regular Gasoline 125,000 Min 91
>
> Aviation gasoline 120,200

Why, Barnyard BoB, I would like to thank you for that information.

I really didn't think you cared, but you must, since you backed up my
original claim! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Peter Dohm]

"Barnyard BOb" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 28 May 2007 00:27:21 GMT, Jerry Wass >
> wrote:
>
> >Hate to disagree. but there are more BYU's in a GALLON of Avgas than in
> >a GALLON of Mogas. Why?? Avgas weighs more per Gallon...
> >
> >Most fuel type hydrocarbons have nearly the same BTU's per Lb.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
>
> Energy content
>
> Gasoline contains about 34.6 megajoules per litre (MJ/l) or 131 MJ/US
> gallon. This is an average, gasoline blends differ, therefore actual
> energy content varies from season to season and from batch to batch,
> as much as 4% more or less than the average, according to the US EPA.
>
>
> Fuel type BTU/US gal Research octane
>
> Regular Gasoline 125,000 Min 91
> Aviation gasoline 120,200
>
>
> BTU/US gal
> Gasohol (10% ethanol + 90% gasoline) 120,900
> ( Research octane) 93/94
>
>
> - Barnyard BOb -
>
Most interesting.

Thanks for the update.

Peter

[Ron Natalie]

Wayne Paul wrote:
> "Jerry Wass" > wrote in message
> . net...
>> Hate to disagree. but there are more BYU's in a GALLON of Avgas than in a
>> GALLON of Mogas. Why?? Avgas weighs more per Gallon...
>>
>> Most fuel type hydrocarbons have nearly the same BTU's per Lb.
>
> More BYUs? Let see...BYU, BYU Hawaii, and BYU Idaho. How do you get all of
> those universities in a gallon of avgas?
>
>
>
BTU is British Thermal Unit...So there's no bacon at all in it?

[Barnyard BOb]

"Peter Dohm" wrote:


>> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
>>
>> Energy content
>>
>> Gasoline contains about 34.6 megajoules per litre (MJ/l) or 131 MJ/US
>> gallon. This is an average, gasoline blends differ, therefore actual
>> energy content varies from season to season and from batch to batch,
>> as much as 4% more or less than the average, according to the US EPA.
>>
>>
>> Fuel type BTU/US gal Research octane
>>
>> Regular Gasoline 125,000 Min 91
>> Aviation gasoline 120,200
>>
>>
>> BTU/US gal
>> Gasohol (10% ethanol + 90% gasoline) 120,900
>> ( Research octane) 93/94
>>
>> - Barnyard BOb -

>>
>Most interesting.
>
>Thanks for the update.
>
>Peter
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Peter,
After reading your earlier post and having held similar views for
many years, I thought something like this might be of interest.

FWIW, my rule of thumb...
The cruder the fuel, the more btu/gal.
i.e., diesel blows away gasoline @ 138,700 btu/gal
Jet Fuel: Kerosene* 125,800 btu/gal

*Chevron Products Company 2000


- Barnyard BOb - the devil's in the details

[Barnyard BOb]

"Morgans" wrote:

>
>"Barnyard BOb" <> wrote
>
>> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
>
>> Fuel type BTU/US gal Research octane
>>
>> Regular Gasoline 125,000 Min 91
>>
>> Aviation gasoline 120,200
>
>Why, Barnyard BoB, I would like to thank you for that information.
>
>
>I really didn't think you cared, but you must, since you backed up my
>original claim! <g>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I 'care' about truth, justice and the American way!

Even a blind pig can stumble on an acorn.
Seems you did. <g>

Be well ol' friend,


Barnyard BOb - let the chips fall where they may

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Barnyard BOb" > wrote

> I 'care' about truth, justice and the American way!

Well, thanks again, ........

Sooopperrr BoB ! ! ! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Barnyard BOb]

"Morgans" wrote:

>
>"Barnyard BOb" > wrote
>
>> I 'care' about truth, justice and the American way!
>
>Well, thanks again, ........
>
>Sooopperrr BoB ! ! ! <g>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Thank You, Morgans.
However, as you know, the real credit goes to my all time hero....
SUPERMAN!!!

Superman: Truth, Justice, and the American Way

"Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able
to leap tall buildings in a single bound"
1938 was a dark time for America, crime and economic collapse spread
over the land as war loomed in the distance. Men sought dilligently
for work to support their families, the Mob seized their claws on
whatever they could, and in Washington; the President worked long
hours repairing the critical state our fractured country was in. Yet,
Americans managed to hold firm to hope, setting aside the worries of
the day - we found peace of mind and joy at the movies, on the radio,
and in the printed page.

Then, two men from Cleveland introduced us to a legend. America would
find a renewed hope and strength in their caped icon. The common man
didn't feel so small and helpless anymore. Joe Shuster and Jerry
Siegal gave the Nation a hero, not from America like Babe Ruth nor of
this world like Tarzan; but, a champion from far beyond the stars...
from the planet Krypton. I will always picture him standing behind a
beam of light, holding the American flag in one hand and the other on
his hip, full of pride and determination, as the John Williams theme
plays triumphantly. What I present to you now is a tribute, from a fan
and storyteller, of our friend Superman.

"...Look up in the sky, it's a bird, it's a plane, no... it's
Superman"

Although having undergone significant revision in recent years, the
basic story of Superman is truly one of America's finest modern
classics. For 61 years, he's endured as a symbol of truth and justice,
his adventures gracing every medium known to man. To me, the greatest
rendition of the Superman story will always be from Superman: The
Movie. It conveyed the Superman epic with scope and majesty and yet
with sentiment. If only every saga of the Man of Steel could be
written and presented in such a manner.

I can't sit here and imagine I'm half the caliber fan most of you are,
but Superman appeals to me. I think that is why he is so reconizable
world-wide, he appeals to everyone. We see him and he holds a special
place in our hearts, everyone from the youngest to the oldest amongst
us. Superman reaches into the child in all of us, I mean, who hasn't
wanted to be him and fly? When I see that familar S, I am filled with
a child-like astonishment and awe. I know that other people think
Superman is the consumate "goody two shoes", their heroes kill and
maim and can't be distinguished from the villainy they should oppose.
Even other DCU heroes affectionatly or sarcastically dub him 'The Big
Blue Boy Scout'. I, for one prefer him this way, thank you very much.
I think many of us cling to him for that very reason.

Superman is not just an alien with extraordinary abilities, far above
mortal men... he cares for us. He radiates decency and integrity, it's
not just the powers that makes him a great man, it is because he is
Clark Kent. He, the All-American country boy from the Heartland. Clark
Jerome Kent is too integral to the mythos and grandieur that is
Superman. That rocket could have been choosen to have landed anywhere,
at any time, even fleshed out for decades. Could it--would it have
been the same? Perhaps, but I am thankful such curiosities are left to
Elseworlds. The Kent's wholesome upbringing they raised Kal-El with is
what makes Superman a gentle being filled with warmth, kindness, and
innocence. An adopted son of man and Earth with honest values and a
big heart.

His legacy isn't just that of a hero, but also a teacher; whose
lessons have helped guide the generation before us and will the
generation after as well. Not too many fictional characters can
solicite such a reaction from so many nor have been bestowed with so
much gratitude. It does seem very much that I speak of Superman as if
he were real, so I want to close by taking this time to give a
heartfelt thanks to the men and women who helped contribute and carve
Superman into such credible dimensions. Thank you Joe and Jerry...
ever so much. Thank you Superman for the wonderful adventures,
important lessons, and for--- "The never ending battle for truth,
justice, and the American way."

Josh Grayson
January 2000

[jerry wass]

Barnyard BOb wrote:
> "Morgans" wrote:
>
>> "Barnyard BOb" > wrote
>>
>>> I 'care' about truth, justice and the American way!
>> Well, thanks again, ........
>>
>> Sooopperrr BoB ! ! ! <g>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Thank You, Morgans.
> However, as you know, the real credit goes to my all time hero....
> SUPERMAN!!!
>
> Superman: Truth, Justice, and the American Way
>
> "Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able
> to leap tall buildings in a single bound"
> 1938 was a dark time for America, crime and economic collapse spread
> over the land as war loomed in the distance. Men sought dilligently
> for work to support their families, the Mob seized their claws on
> whatever they could, and in Washington; the President worked long
> hours repairing the critical state our fractured country was in. Yet,
> Americans managed to hold firm to hope, setting aside the worries of
> the day - we found peace of mind and joy at the movies, on the radio,
> and in the printed page.
>
> Then, two men from Cleveland introduced us to a legend. America would
> find a renewed hope and strength in their caped icon. The common man
> didn't feel so small and helpless anymore. Joe Shuster and Jerry
> Siegal gave the Nation a hero, not from America like Babe Ruth nor of
> this world like Tarzan; but, a champion from far beyond the stars...
> from the planet Krypton. I will always picture him standing behind a
> beam of light, holding the American flag in one hand and the other on
> his hip, full of pride and determination, as the John Williams theme
> plays triumphantly. What I present to you now is a tribute, from a fan
> and storyteller, of our friend Superman.
>
> "...Look up in the sky, it's a bird, it's a plane, no... it's
> Superman"
>
> Although having undergone significant revision in recent years, the
> basic story of Superman is truly one of America's finest modern
> classics. For 61 years, he's endured as a symbol of truth and justice,
> his adventures gracing every medium known to man. To me, the greatest
> rendition of the Superman story will always be from Superman: The
> Movie. It conveyed the Superman epic with scope and majesty and yet
> with sentiment. If only every saga of the Man of Steel could be
> written and presented in such a manner.
>
> I can't sit here and imagine I'm half the caliber fan most of you are,
> but Superman appeals to me. I think that is why he is so reconizable
> world-wide, he appeals to everyone. We see him and he holds a special
> place in our hearts, everyone from the youngest to the oldest amongst
> us. Superman reaches into the child in all of us, I mean, who hasn't
> wanted to be him and fly? When I see that familar S, I am filled with
> a child-like astonishment and awe. I know that other people think
> Superman is the consumate "goody two shoes", their heroes kill and
> maim and can't be distinguished from the villainy they should oppose.
> Even other DCU heroes affectionatly or sarcastically dub him 'The Big
> Blue Boy Scout'. I, for one prefer him this way, thank you very much.
> I think many of us cling to him for that very reason.
>
> Superman is not just an alien with extraordinary abilities, far above
> mortal men... he cares for us. He radiates decency and integrity, it's
> not just the powers that makes him a great man, it is because he is
> Clark Kent. He, the All-American country boy from the Heartland. Clark
> Jerome Kent is too integral to the mythos and grandieur that is
> Superman. That rocket could have been choosen to have landed anywhere,
> at any time, even fleshed out for decades. Could it--would it have
> been the same? Perhaps, but I am thankful such curiosities are left to
> Elseworlds. The Kent's wholesome upbringing they raised Kal-El with is
> what makes Superman a gentle being filled with warmth, kindness, and
> innocence. An adopted son of man and Earth with honest values and a
> big heart.
>
> His legacy isn't just that of a hero, but also a teacher; whose
> lessons have helped guide the generation before us and will the
> generation after as well. Not too many fictional characters can
> solicite such a reaction from so many nor have been bestowed with so
> much gratitude. It does seem very much that I speak of Superman as if
> he were real, so I want to close by taking this time to give a
> heartfelt thanks to the men and women who helped contribute and carve
> Superman into such credible dimensions. Thank you Joe and Jerry...
> ever so much. Thank you Superman for the wonderful adventures,
> important lessons, and for--- "The never ending battle for truth,
> justice, and the American way."
>
> Josh Grayson
> January 2000
>
Hey There BYB---gotta poligize--Your anus is of the darker hue---Dug me
out some Avgas & weighed 250 cc's of it----179 gms---then weighed some
Mogas--168.3gm ----6.3% HEAVIER!!---(gettin closer to summer here in
OK,must be puttin more asphalt in it.)---Jerry

[Peter Dohm]

"Barnyard BOb" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Peter Dohm" wrote:
>
>
> >> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
> >>
> >> Energy content
> >>
> >> Gasoline contains about 34.6 megajoules per litre (MJ/l) or 131 MJ/US
> >> gallon. This is an average, gasoline blends differ, therefore actual
> >> energy content varies from season to season and from batch to batch,
> >> as much as 4% more or less than the average, according to the US EPA.
> >>
> >>
> >> Fuel type BTU/US gal Research octane
> >>
> >> Regular Gasoline 125,000 Min 91
> >> Aviation gasoline 120,200
> >>
> >>
> >> BTU/US gal
> >> Gasohol (10% ethanol + 90% gasoline) 120,900
> >> ( Research octane) 93/94
> >>
> >> - Barnyard BOb -
>
> >>
> >Most interesting.
> >
> >Thanks for the update.
> >
> >Peter
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Peter,
> After reading your earlier post and having held similar views for
> many years, I thought something like this might be of interest.
>
> FWIW, my rule of thumb...
> The cruder the fuel, the more btu/gal.
> i.e., diesel blows away gasoline @ 138,700 btu/gal
> Jet Fuel: Kerosene* 125,800 btu/gal
>
> *Chevron Products Company 2000
>
>
> - Barnyard BOb - the devil's in the details

Indeed it is. I did not realize that kerosene was so close in energy per
gallon to gasolene, rather than to diesel fuel. I had presumed (wrongly, it
appears) that kerosene was similar in weight to diesel fuel--and therefore
similar in energy content.

At the moment, I can't seem to confirm the approximate weights--but will
look again tomorrow.

Peter

[Barnyard BOb]

Jerry Wass wrote:

>Hey There BYB---gotta poligize--Your anus is of the darker hue---Dug me
>out some Avgas & weighed 250 cc's of it----179 gms---then weighed some
>Mogas--168.3gm ----6.3% HEAVIER!!---(gettin closer to summer here in
>OK,must be puttin more asphalt in it.)---Jerry
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Jerry,
Your ORIGINAL ARGUEMENT WAS....

"Hate to disagree. but there are more BYU's in a GALLON of Avgas than
in a GALLON of Mogas. Why?? Avgas weighs more per Gallon..."

Weight of fuel is irrelevant when it comes to btu/gal....
assuming your BYU reference was meant to be btu.
Btu/gal is a VOLUME measurement, not one of weight.

Thank you for your time and patience.

- Barnyard BOb -

[jerry wass]

Barnyard BOb wrote:
> Jerry Wass wrote:
>
>> Hey There BYB---gotta poligize--Your anus is of the darker hue---Dug me
>> out some Avgas & weighed 250 cc's of it----179 gms---then weighed some
>> Mogas--168.3gm ----6.3% HEAVIER!!---(gettin closer to summer here in
>> OK,must be puttin more asphalt in it.)---Jerry
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Jerry,
> Your ORIGINAL ARGUEMENT WAS....
>
> "Hate to disagree. but there are more BYU's in a GALLON of Avgas than
> in a GALLON of Mogas. Why?? Avgas weighs more per Gallon..."
>
> Weight of fuel is irrelevant when it comes to btu/gal....
> assuming your BYU reference was meant to be btu.
> Btu/gal is a VOLUME measurement, not one of weight.
>
> Thank you for your time and patience.
>
> - Barnyard BOb -

Wow-Screwed up again!!Got the weights transposed--Mogas IS heavier than
Avgas!!double apology--Jerry

[Barnyard BOb]

Jerry Wass > wrote:

>Barnyard BOb wrote:
>> Jerry Wass wrote:
>>
>>> Hey There BYB---gotta poligize--Your anus is of the darker hue---Dug me
>>> out some Avgas & weighed 250 cc's of it----179 gms---then weighed some
>>> Mogas--168.3gm ----6.3% HEAVIER!!---(gettin closer to summer here in
>>> OK,must be puttin more asphalt in it.)---Jerry
>> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>>
>> Jerry,
>> Your ORIGINAL ARGUEMENT WAS....
>>
>> "Hate to disagree. but there are more BYU's in a GALLON of Avgas than
>> in a GALLON of Mogas. Why?? Avgas weighs more per Gallon..."
>>
>> Weight of fuel is irrelevant when it comes to btu/gal....
>> assuming your BYU reference was meant to be btu.
>> Btu/gal is a VOLUME measurement, not one of weight.
>>
>> Thank you for your time and patience.
>>
>> - Barnyard BOb -
>
>Wow-Screwed up again!!Got the weights transposed--Mogas IS heavier than
>Avgas!!double apology--Jerry
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Jerry,
I have purposely distanced myself from weight specifics
since my sources state energy content BY VOLUME,
which is the convenient way we buy fuel at the pump.

Found another web site stating values by GALLON, not weight.
[No idea how accurate these values are.]
http://www.jwiwood.com/faq/conversion.html
Too bad they make no reference to avgas.

For grins.....

1 gallon of crude oil ... 138,095 Btu
1 gallon of kerosene or light distillate oil ... 135,000 Btu
1 gallon middle distillate or diesel fuel oil ... 138,690 Btu
1 gallon residential fuel oil ... 149,690 Btu
1 gallon of gasoline ... 125,000 Btu
1 gallon of ethanol ... 84,400 Btu

P.S.
If these figures are reasonably accurate...
It takes MORE than a gallon of crude to produce a gallon of diesel.
Double ditto for residential fuel oil.


- Barnyard BOb -