GA Flying Down 20%

[Jay Honeck]

This from the April '07 edition of "NTSB Reporter":

"The good news: the number of GA accidents in 2006 declined to 1,515
from the 1,669 accidente in 2005. The bad news: The NTSB reports that
part of the decline was due to the steady decrease in the amount of GA
activity. Since 1990, says the Safety Board, GA hours flown each year
have declined, totalling a 20% drop".

If my casual observations of this past winter/spring are accurate, I'd
say the drop has continued, and probably accelerated due to higher gas
prices. I'm still hoping, however, that everyone has just been
saving their nickels for the summer flying season, and that we'll once
again hear the radios jammed everywhere we fly...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

> Since 1990, says the Safety Board, GA hours flown each year
> have declined, totalling a 20% drop".

Scared me. I thought you'd found out it was down 20% since *last year.*

It does seem that there's an awful lot of used airplanes on the market now.
Anybody know how to find out statistics on this?


--
Dan
? at BFM

[Jim Logajan]

"Dan Luke" > wrote:
> It does seem that there's an awful lot of used airplanes on the market
> now. Anybody know how to find out statistics on this?

I have no answer for size of used market, but this web site has links to
trends in the size of new aircraft market:

http://www.gama.aero/home.php

[Dan Luke]

"Jim Logajan" wrote:

>> It does seem that there's an awful lot of used airplanes on the market
>> now. Anybody know how to find out statistics on this?
>
> I have no answer for size of used market, but this web site has links to
> trends in the size of new aircraft market:
>
> http://www.gama.aero/home.php

It says shipments of new piston aircraft are down nearly 8%. Somewat ominous
in light of the fact that the last time the stock markets were this hot,
airplanes were selling like hotcakes.

--
Dan
? at BFM

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Dan Luke wrote:
> "Jim Logajan" wrote:
>
>>> It does seem that there's an awful lot of used airplanes on the
>>> market now. Anybody know how to find out statistics on this?
>>
>> I have no answer for size of used market, but this web site has
>> links to trends in the size of new aircraft market:
>>
>> http://www.gama.aero/home.php
>
> It says shipments of new piston aircraft are down nearly 8%. Somewat
> ominous in light of the fact that the last time the stock markets
> were this hot, airplanes were selling like hotcakes.

Well that's just the first quarter and who the hell buys an airplane in
winter. But more to point I know a lot of folks that bot fly and could plop
down half a million for a new plane. The funny thing is they never do. They
buy 5 or 6 year old Barons or Bonanzas. My small home airport is the home of
7 jets ranging from Citation 3s to a big ass Falcon. Every other hanger has
a Beechcraft in it. But there is not a single piston aircraft on the field
that was built in this century. Maybe this is because folks around here are
just smarter. The only time a piston plane really looses value is when it
goes from 0 time to 100 hours. After that they hold their value pretty well.

[Jay Honeck]

On May 31, 2:14 pm, "Dan Luke" > wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" wrote:
> > Since 1990, says the Safety Board, GA hours flown each year
> > have declined, totalling a 20% drop".
>
> Scared me. I thought you'd found out it was down 20% since *last year.*
>
> It does seem that there's an awful lot of used airplanes on the market now.
> Anybody know how to find out statistics on this?
>
> --
> Dan
> ? at BFM

[Jay Honeck]

> Scared me. I thought you'd found out it was down 20% since *last year.*

I think it IS down 20% this year from last year.

Another example: Mary and I just returned from an afternoon flight
(today is our "Sunday" -- we take Wed/Thu off each week, and work on
"real" weekends) to a nearby airport restaurant.

We were the ONLY airplane flying, at either airport. I heard a couple
of planes at distant airports on 122.8 -- but that's it.

Now the weather wasn't predicted to be ideal today (although it turned
out to be beautiful), so that might have kept a few on the ground --
but this "Lone Ranger of the Sky" thing has become an all-to-familar
experience for us lately.

Spooky...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ken Finney]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> Dan Luke wrote:
>> "Jim Logajan" wrote:
>>
>>>> It does seem that there's an awful lot of used airplanes on the
>>>> market now. Anybody know how to find out statistics on this?
>>>
>>> I have no answer for size of used market, but this web site has
>>> links to trends in the size of new aircraft market:
>>>
>>> http://www.gama.aero/home.php
>>
>> It says shipments of new piston aircraft are down nearly 8%. Somewat
>> ominous in light of the fact that the last time the stock markets
>> were this hot, airplanes were selling like hotcakes.
>
> Well that's just the first quarter and who the hell buys an airplane in
> winter. But more to point I know a lot of folks that bot fly and could
> plop down half a million for a new plane. The funny thing is they never
> do. They buy 5 or 6 year old Barons or Bonanzas. My small home airport is
> the home of 7 jets ranging from Citation 3s to a big ass Falcon. Every
> other hanger has a Beechcraft in it. But there is not a single piston
> aircraft on the field that was built in this century. Maybe this is
> because folks around here are just smarter. The only time a piston plane
> really looses value is when it goes from 0 time to 100 hours. After that
> they hold their value pretty well.
>

There is a reason millionaires are millionaires. The ones I know recycle
their aluminum cans for the money and will always stop to pick up a penny.

[Dan Luke]

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote:

>> It says shipments of new piston aircraft are down nearly 8%. Somewat
>> ominous in light of the fact that the last time the stock markets
>> were this hot, airplanes were selling like hotcakes.
>
> Well that's just the first quarter and who the hell buys an airplane in
> winter.

8% more people last year than this year.

[Jim Logajan]

"Ken Finney" > wrote:
> There is a reason millionaires are millionaires. The ones I know
> recycle their aluminum cans for the money and will always stop to pick
> up a penny.

That's pretty much what authors Stanley and Danko found to be rule 1 of 7
rules for accumulating wealth, according to their book "The Millionaire
Next Door":

http://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Thomas-Stanley/dp/0671015206

[M[_1_]]

On May 31, 8:05 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>
> "The good news: the number of GA accidents in 2006 declined to 1,515
> from the 1,669 accidente in 2005. The bad news: The NTSB reports that
> part of the decline was due to the steady decrease in the amount of GA
> activity. Since 1990, says the Safety Board, GA hours flown each year
> have declined, totalling a 20% drop".
>

Just look at the drops of avgas consumption:

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/a403600001m.htm

[Jay Honeck]

> Just look at the drops of avgas consumption:
>
> http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/a403600001m.htm

Oh, my God. That is incredible. And awful.

I wonder if those sales figures from the 1980s included military
aircraft? There used to be lots of military hardware burning avgas
-- not any more...

If not? Holy moley...GA really is dead.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
> We were the ONLY airplane flying, at either airport. I heard a couple of
> planes at distant airports on 122.8 -- but that's it.


I was at our EAA Hangar from noon till 5pm today. We had the doors open and
were out on the cement slab for much of the time ...working (mostly).

I saw:
Four corporate-type jets take off
An OV-1 Mohawk, from American Wings Museum, flew around
A biplane was taxiing - never did see it in the air
Maybe five Cessnas and a Beech flew past our spot

All in all, it was a pretty quiet afternoon. The tower log might prove me
wrong, those are the planes I remember seeing - that's all. Like I said,
quiet.

<http://www.goldenwingsmuseum.com/Photo's/Stin.%20A%20Flgt%20-%201a.jpg>
Across the parking lot from us, this guy was pushed out onto the ramp, for a
little flying time. It never did get into the air, today. Drat.

Yes, I was available for a ride!


Montblack

[Mxsmanic]

Ken Finney writes:

> There is a reason millionaires are millionaires. The ones I know recycle
> their aluminum cans for the money and will always stop to pick up a penny.

Additionally, millionaires are no longer rich, so they may have to recycle
their aluminum cans.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> Oh, my God. That is incredible. And awful.

> I wonder if those sales figures from the 1980s included military
> aircraft? There used to be lots of military hardware burning avgas
> -- not any more...

> If not? Holy moley...GA really is dead.

But, don't forget. There is a hell of a lot of mogas being burned now,
where there was mostly all avgas being used, back then.
--
Jim in NC

[[email protected]]

On May 31, 1:32 pm, "Dan Luke" > wrote:
> "Jim Logajan" wrote:
> >> It does seem that there's an awful lot of used airplanes on the market
> >> now. Anybody know how to find out statistics on this?
>
> > I have no answer for size of used market, but this web site has links to
> > trends in the size of new aircraft market:
>
> >http://www.gama.aero/home.php
>
> It says shipments of new piston aircraft are down nearly 8%. Somewat ominous
> in light of the fact that the last time the stock markets were this hot,
> airplanes were selling like hotcakes.
>
> --
> Dan
> ? at BFM

The stock market is hot because companies are in cost cutting mode,
laying off americans and sending jobs overseas. At the same time,
they have succeeded in keeping salaries flat while inflation marches
on... Its great for short-term investors but hell for the middle
class.

[M[_1_]]

On May 31, 8:29 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
> I wonder if those sales figures from the 1980s included military
> aircraft? There used to be lots of military hardware burning avgas
> -- not any more...

I don't think the Military had active duty piston engine aircrafts in
the 1980s. It was all GA.

>
> If not? Holy moley...GA really is dead.
>

If ethanol-compatible mogas burning LSAs don't catch on in the next
few years, then you're right. Piston powered GA doesn't have much
future left. I consider myself the last generation of piston GA
flyers, and I'm putting 200hr a year right now on my mogas burning
Grumman to catch some last epic flying. One day I'll probably hang up
my wings, at least I'll have a thousand or two hours of flying memory
to remember.

[M[_1_]]

On May 31, 9:31 pm, "Morgans" > wrote:

>
> But, don't forget. There is a hell of a lot of mogas being burned now,
> where there was mostly all avgas being used, back then.

I wonder if there's any statistics on this. I know I'm burning mogas
in my plane like no tomorrow. It's a psychological thing, like
reverse commute and watching people stuck on the freeway in the
opposite direction. Mogas at AWO is $3.81 right now, but compared to
100LL's $4.82 it's a steal, and I can't fly enough of it before it'll
go even higher next year.

[John Clear]

In article . com>,
M > wrote:
>On May 31, 8:29 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>>
>> I wonder if those sales figures from the 1980s included military
>> aircraft? There used to be lots of military hardware burning avgas
>> -- not any more...
>
>I don't think the Military had active duty piston engine aircrafts in
>the 1980s. It was all GA.

One thing to consider is old frieght dogs changing from piston
powered beasts to turbine monsters. A Twin Beech or DC-3 burns
quite a bit of fuel.

One stat I've seen, but can't source right now, is that $bignum
percent of piston engines could run on a 95UL fuel (basically a
super premium blend of mogas), but the majority of avgas burnt goes
into the $smallnum percent of engines that can't burn 95UL and need
100 octane. I wonder if that stat is still true, with there being
a lot less big piston aircraft out there now.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Ken Finney writes:
>
>> There is a reason millionaires are millionaires. The ones I know
>> recycle their aluminum cans for the money and will always stop to
>> pick up a penny.
>
> Additionally, millionaires are no longer rich, so they may have to
> recycle their aluminum cans.
>

You're an idiot.

bertei

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> Just look at the drops of avgas consumption:
>>
>> http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/a403600001m.htm
>
> Oh, my God. That is incredible. And awful.
>
> I wonder if those sales figures from the 1980s included military
> aircraft? There used to be lots of military hardware burning avgas
> -- not any more...
>
> If not? Holy moley...GA really is dead.

I don't think many military airplanes have used avgas since 2000, and
the drop since this is still very dramatic. I won't say GA is dead, but
it certainly is very sick. I'm looking at BMW motorcycles this weekend,
having decided I simply can't afford an airplane of the capability I
really need to be useful (Skylane or better) and the inconvenience of he
nearest airport with hangars being 45 minutes away. If I buy a new
bike, I'll probably drop my flying club membership and ride.

Matt

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

>> Just look at the drops of avgas consumption:
>>
>> http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/a403600001m.htm
>
> Oh, my God. That is incredible. And awful.

What's really striking is the dropoff after 9/11/01. 100LL deliveries have
never recovered.


--
Dan
? at BFM

[Peter R.]

On 5/31/2007 4:30:43 PM, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrote:

> But more to point I know a lot of folks that bot fly and could plop
> down half a million for a new plane. The funny thing is they never do.
> They buy 5 or 6 year old Barons or Bonanzas.

From what I know now about aircraft ownership, I would never buy new.

--
Peter

[Mxsmanic]

Nomen Nescio writes:

> Did you ever read "The Millionaire Next Door"?

Yes, and what struck me about these millionaires is that most of them had
become that way only because they had spent their entire lives not spending
money. Obviously if you never spend anything you can build up quite a bit of
cash. I don't see the advantage to having a million in the bank and still
living like trailer trash, though.

Additionally, a million dollars really isn't significant these days.

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> The stock market is hot because companies are in cost cutting mode,
> laying off americans and sending jobs overseas.

Dell just posted unexpectedly high profits and announced a layoff of 8000
people at the same time.

> Its great for short-term investors but hell for the middle
> class.

It's one of the defects in the current capitalist system. Anonymous ownership
of large corporations is a bad thing.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> Dan Luke wrote:
>> "Jim Logajan" wrote:
>>
>>>> It does seem that there's an awful lot of used airplanes on the
>>>> market now. Anybody know how to find out statistics on this?
>>>
>>> I have no answer for size of used market, but this web site has
>>> links to trends in the size of new aircraft market:
>>>
>>> http://www.gama.aero/home.php
>>
>> It says shipments of new piston aircraft are down nearly 8%. Somewat
>> ominous in light of the fact that the last time the stock markets
>> were this hot, airplanes were selling like hotcakes.
>
> Well that's just the first quarter and who the hell buys an airplane in
> winter. But more to point I know a lot of folks that bot fly and could
> plop down half a million for a new plane. The funny thing is they never
> do. They buy 5 or 6 year old Barons or Bonanzas.

How many of those have less than 300 hours (50 / year)? If that's all you
fly, a used plane is a good deal.

> My small home airport is the home of 7 jets ranging from Citation 3s to a
> big ass Falcon. Every other hanger has a Beechcraft in it. But there is
> not a single piston aircraft on the field that was built in this century.
> Maybe this is because folks around here are just smarter.

When I bought my B36, it was nine years old and had 1660 hours on it. In the
six and a half years I had it, I put 2012 hours on it.

> The only time a piston plane really looses value is when it goes from 0
> time to 100 hours. After that they hold their value pretty well.

Which is why buying a factory demonstrator (115 hours) is soooooo sweet.


--
Matt Barrow
Performace Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Just look at the drops of avgas consumption:
>>
>> http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/a403600001m.htm
>
> Oh, my God. That is incredible. And awful.
>
> I wonder if those sales figures from the 1980s included military
> aircraft? There used to be lots of military hardware burning avgas
> -- not any more...
>
> If not? Holy moley...GA really is dead.


Look at Jet-A consumption.

GA isn't dead, just not burning AvGas.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net>
>
>>But more to point I know a lot of folks that bot fly and could plop
>>down half a million for a new plane. The funny thing is they never do.
>>They
>>buy 5 or 6 year old Barons or Bonanzas.
>
> Which is the reason they COULD drop 1/2 mil on a plane.
> Did you ever read "The Millionaire Next Door"?
>

They don't buy used cars, but they do keep them 6-8 years.

And they don;t buy flashy cars ala Hollyweird/TV. They're as likely to own
an 8-10 year old Mercedes as they are a five year old Honda Accord.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> On 5/31/2007 4:30:43 PM, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrote:
>
>> But more to point I know a lot of folks that bot fly and could plop
>> down half a million for a new plane. The funny thing is they never do.
>> They buy 5 or 6 year old Barons or Bonanzas.
>
> From what I know now about aircraft ownership, I would never buy new.

Just about all the new sales are fractionals, partnerships, etc.

[Mxsmanic]

Matt Barrow writes:

> Look at Jet-A consumption.
>
> GA isn't dead, just not burning AvGas.

That may be a very different flavor of GA, one completely inaccessible to the
average private pilot flying for pleasure. I've no doubt that business jets
are on the upswing, but that's not a realistic option for someone who normally
rents a Cessna 152.

[Jim Burns[_2_]]

Good point. and the aerial applicators as well.
Jim

"John Clear" > wrote in message
...
> In article . com>,
> M > wrote:
> >On May 31, 8:29 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> >>
> >> I wonder if those sales figures from the 1980s included military
> >> aircraft? There used to be lots of military hardware burning avgas
> >> -- not any more...
> >
> >I don't think the Military had active duty piston engine aircrafts in
> >the 1980s. It was all GA.
>
> One thing to consider is old frieght dogs changing from piston
> powered beasts to turbine monsters. A Twin Beech or DC-3 burns
> quite a bit of fuel.
>
> One stat I've seen, but can't source right now, is that $bignum
> percent of piston engines could run on a 95UL fuel (basically a
> super premium blend of mogas), but the majority of avgas burnt goes
> into the $smallnum percent of engines that can't burn 95UL and need
> 100 octane. I wonder if that stat is still true, with there being
> a lot less big piston aircraft out there now.
>
> John
> --
> John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Additionally, a million dollars really isn't significant these days.

???

While it's not what it once was, a million bucks is enough to live on
quite comfortably for decades.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I don't think many military airplanes have used avgas since 2000, and
> the drop since this is still very dramatic. I won't say GA is dead, but
> it certainly is very sick. I'm looking at BMW motorcycles this weekend,
> having decided I simply can't afford an airplane of the capability I
> really need to be useful (Skylane or better) and the inconvenience of he
> nearest airport with hangars being 45 minutes away. If I buy a new
> bike, I'll probably drop my flying club membership and ride.

Don't get me wrong -- riding is great. (Just got my Goldwing out of
winter storage last weekend.) But it ain't flying...

Nothing is.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> While it's not what it once was, a million bucks is enough to live on
> quite comfortably for decades.

Decades? I think not. Not when a nice house alone costs more than a million
dollars, and a mediocre house costs half a million.

[Mxsmanic]

Nomen Nescio writes:

> A million in a tax free 5% Muni generates well over 5 times your annual
> income.

A million after taxes might, but you need a lot more than a million to have a
million left after taxes.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Jay Honeck writes:
>
>> While it's not what it once was, a million bucks is enough to live on
>> quite comfortably for decades.
>
> Decades? I think not. Not when a nice house alone costs more than a
> million dollars, and a mediocre house costs half a million.

Fortunatley for you Dumpsters are cheap and plentiful


Berti e

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Jay Honeck writes:

> > While it's not what it once was, a million bucks is enough to live on
> > quite comfortably for decades.

> Decades? I think not. Not when a nice house alone costs more than a million
> dollars, and a mediocre house costs half a million.

Adults can get credit.

$1M house ~ $3K/month

$1M/($3K*12) ~ 28 years

Adults can get interest.

$1M @ 5.75% annual yield = $57,500/year

House payment = $36,000/year

Net annual income $57.5K - $36K = $21.5K

Adults pay taxes.

The house payment is almost totally deductible, so the taxable
annual income is $21.5K, which is a negligable tax rate.

After 28 years, amount on hand (neglecting other expenses

$1M + 28 ($21.5K) ~ $1.6M.

Or you could spend ~$50K/year (in addition to the house payment)
and wind up with about $0 after 28 years.

You'll understand all this when you grow up.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> Additionally, a million dollars really isn't significant these days.

While true it really is funny to se it written by someone who at their
current rate will not earn that much in 200 years.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> I don't think many military airplanes have used avgas since 2000, and
>> the drop since this is still very dramatic. I won't say GA is dead, but
>> it certainly is very sick. I'm looking at BMW motorcycles this weekend,
>> having decided I simply can't afford an airplane of the capability I
>> really need to be useful (Skylane or better) and the inconvenience of he
>> nearest airport with hangars being 45 minutes away. If I buy a new
>> bike, I'll probably drop my flying club membership and ride.
>
> Don't get me wrong -- riding is great. (Just got my Goldwing out of
> winter storage last weekend.) But it ain't flying...
>
> Nothing is.


1) Buy a hotel or two far away from where you are, but in places you like to
visit.

2) Fly to them to "cehck on our properties".

3) Write off the vast majority of your flying costs.

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> I don't think many military airplanes have used avgas since 2000, and
>> the drop since this is still very dramatic. I won't say GA is dead, but
>> it certainly is very sick. I'm looking at BMW motorcycles this weekend,
>> having decided I simply can't afford an airplane of the capability I
>> really need to be useful (Skylane or better) and the inconvenience of he
>> nearest airport with hangars being 45 minutes away. If I buy a new
>> bike, I'll probably drop my flying club membership and ride.
>
> Don't get me wrong -- riding is great. (Just got my Goldwing out of
> winter storage last weekend.) But it ain't flying...
>
> Nothing is.

Nothing but flying is flying, but nothing but riding is riding. I don't
value one more than the other. They are different experiences, but
neither is better or worse than the other. Some people have broader
interests that you. You need to understand that.

Matt

[Gilan]

Well most of the LSAs out there only burn 4 to 6 gph of auto gas. Sun n Fun
was jammed full of LSAs this year.


Have a good day and stay out of the trees!
See ya on Sport Aircraft group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sport_Aircraft/





"M" wrote in message
On May 31, 8:29 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>>
>> I wonder if those sales figures from the 1980s included military
>> aircraft? There used to be lots of military hardware burning avgas
>> -- not any more...
>
> I don't think the Military had active duty piston engine aircrafts in
> the 1980s. It was all GA.
>
>>
>> If not? Holy moley...GA really is dead.
>>
>
> If ethanol-compatible mogas burning LSAs don't catch on in the next
> few years, then you're right. Piston powered GA doesn't have much
> future left. I consider myself the last generation of piston GA
> flyers, and I'm putting 200hr a year right now on my mogas burning
> Grumman to catch some last epic flying. One day I'll probably hang up
> my wings, at least I'll have a thousand or two hours of flying memory
> to remember.
>

[Sylvain]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote:

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> Additionally, a million dollars really isn't significant these days.
> While true it really is funny to se it written by someone who at their
> current rate will not earn that much in 200 years.

I believe this is what is called rationalization.

--Sylvain

[Tom Conner]

> wrote in message
...
> Mxsmanic > wrote:
> > Jay Honeck writes:
>
> > > While it's not what it once was, a million bucks is enough to live on
> > > quite comfortably for decades.
>
> > Decades? I think not. Not when a nice house alone costs more than a
million
> > dollars, and a mediocre house costs half a million.
>
> Adults can get credit.
>
> $1M house ~ $3K/month
>

Your math appears to be wrong. A $1,000,000 dollar loan, 30 years, at 7% is
$6700/month. Mybe if you put $500,000 down you can get a $3000/month
payment.
http://www.bankrate.com/gookeyword/mortgage-calculator.asp?unroundedPayment=6653.024951791824&loanAmount=1000000.00&nrOfYears=30&nrOfMonths=360&interestRate=7.00&startMonth=5&startDay=1&startYear=2007&monthlyPayment=6653.02&monthlyAdditional=0&yearlyAdditional=0&yearlyAdditionalMonth=5&oneAdditional=0&oneAdditionalMonth=5&oneAdditionalYear=2007&paidOffDate=Jun+1%2C+2037&submit.x=30&submit.y=8

Depending on where you live a million dollar home can be nice, or a
fixer-upper.

[[email protected]]

Tom Conner > wrote:

> > wrote in message
> ...
> > Mxsmanic > wrote:
> > > Jay Honeck writes:
> >
> > > > While it's not what it once was, a million bucks is enough to live on
> > > > quite comfortably for decades.
> >
> > > Decades? I think not. Not when a nice house alone costs more than a
> million
> > > dollars, and a mediocre house costs half a million.
> >
> > Adults can get credit.
> >
> > $1M house ~ $3K/month
> >

> Your math appears to be wrong. A $1,000,000 dollar loan, 30 years, at 7% is
> $6700/month. Mybe if you put $500,000 down you can get a $3000/month
> payment.

I have no idea what the interest rate or term is for that loan is nor
do I care.

I simply went to a couple of mortgage web sites and found offers for
fixed loans for an average of around $3K for a $1M mortgage.

Even if the payment is off it doesn't change the point that if
one were to suddenly receive $1M, one can finance a house and live
for a long time on the original principal before it goes to zero..

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Jose]

> While it's not what it once was, a million bucks is enough to live on
> quite comfortably for decades.

Where? And at what inflation rate?

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Honeck]

> Decades? I think not. Not when a nice house alone costs more than a million
> dollars, and a mediocre house costs half a million.

A million dollar home in Iowa is bigger than the White House. A half
million dollar home is a castle.

Our four-bedroom, 2.5 car garage, 3 bath ranch is valued at $220K.

I don't know about homes in France, but if your prices are accurate,
it sounds worse than California...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > While it's not what it once was, a million bucks is enough to live on
> > quite comfortably for decades.
>
> Where? And at what inflation rate?

$1 million dollars, without so much as putting it in a passbook
savings account, will net you $50K per year for 20 years. That's two
decades.

Invest it even semi-wisely, and you should make it three decades or
more.

I could live quite comfortably on that, without so much as a part-time
job...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > Decades? I think not. Not when a nice house alone costs more than a million
> > dollars, and a mediocre house costs half a million.

> A million dollar home in Iowa is bigger than the White House. A half
> million dollar home is a castle.

> Our four-bedroom, 2.5 car garage, 3 bath ranch is valued at $220K.

> I don't know about homes in France, but if your prices are accurate,
> it sounds worse than California...

House prices in California are on the average higher than most of
the rest of the country, but a nice house in a nice place can be
had for under a half million, just not in places like Malibu or
the Bay Area.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> I have no idea what the interest rate or term is for that loan is nor
> do I care.

Then your entire original argument is invalidated.

> Even if the payment is off it doesn't change the point that if
> one were to suddenly receive $1M, one can finance a house and live
> for a long time on the original principal before it goes to zero..

Since you don't know or care about the details, this assertion is pretty much
worthless.

A lot of people think $1 million is a lot of money--often because they don't
know or care about the details. That's one reason why many lottery winners
are right back in the same boat a few years after winning their prizes: they
spend and spend without caring about the details, and before they know it,
that "unlimited" sum of money is gone.

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> A million dollar home in Iowa is bigger than the White House. A half
> million dollar home is a castle.
>
> Our four-bedroom, 2.5 car garage, 3 bath ranch is valued at $220K.
>
> I don't know about homes in France, but if your prices are accurate,
> it sounds worse than California...

There are a lot more people who want to live in Paris than in Iowa City.

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> $1 million dollars, without so much as putting it in a passbook
> savings account, will net you $50K per year for 20 years. That's two
> decades.

In two decades, it will be worth only $27,000 in constant dollars. After
allowing for taxes and other expenses, it will hardly amount to anything.

> I could live quite comfortably on that, without so much as a part-time
> job...

You've probably already earned considerably more than that. Where is it now?

[Mxsmanic]

Sylvain writes:

> I believe this is what is called rationalization.

It's called having been there and having done that.

[Jay Honeck]

> There are a lot more people who want to live in Paris than in Iowa City.

I always figure it's an IQ test.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> I always figure it's an IQ test.

I doubt it. It's a matter of personal preference, and (in some cases)
professional obligation.

Human beings, for the most part, seem to enjoy living together. Even when
there's plenty of space, they gather to form villages, towns, and cities.
There are some people who enjoy small towns and wide-open spaces, but most
people seem to like cities, either for their own sakes or because of
advantages of city life, such as centralization, variety, etc. Some people
are obligated to live in large cities to work; they usually are unhappy.

Paris is a beautiful city with a lot to offer, so it's a popular place to
live, and since the city itself is quite small, the price of housing is very
high (although London, Manhattan, and Tokyo are much worse).

From an aviation standpoint, Paris is not necessarily very attractive. There
are three major airports serving the city, but they are quite a distance
outside the city limits, and they are limited mainly to commercial airline
traffic and cargo. The most active GA airport is apparently the tiny
Toussus-le-Noble airfield just south of Versailles, but it is not served by
public transportation and doesn't have much in the way of facilities compared
to many large GA airports in the U.S. France as a whole isn't very favorable
to GA; it was early to enter the aviation field but today many obstacles make
it extremely difficult to fly for fun in the country.

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:

> > I have no idea what the interest rate or term is for that loan is nor
> > do I care.

> Then your entire original argument is invalidated.

No child, the only thing that happens is the 28 year term goes
to some other number of years.

> > Even if the payment is off it doesn't change the point that if
> > one were to suddenly receive $1M, one can finance a house and live
> > for a long time on the original principal before it goes to zero..

> Since you don't know or care about the details, this assertion is pretty much
> worthless.

No child, the only thing that happens is the 28 year term goes
to some other number of years.

One can live quite well and for many years on $1M simply by leveraging
the money and a few intelligent investments.

Only a child would blow it all at once.

> A lot of people think $1 million is a lot of money--often because they don't
> know or care about the details. That's one reason why many lottery winners
> are right back in the same boat a few years after winning their prizes: they
> spend and spend without caring about the details, and before they know it,
> that "unlimited" sum of money is gone.

Yes, there are lots of childish, immature people in the world just like
you that given a large sum of money haven't a clue how to handle it.

I personally know a couple that about 15 years ago inherited about $5M.

Three years later it was all gone spent on parties, chartered trips
to rock concerts around the world and nose candy with nothing of substance
to show for it but a 2 year old van and a drum set.

To this day they whine about the world much like you do.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Decades? I think not. Not when a nice house alone costs more than a
>> million
>> dollars, and a mediocre house costs half a million.
>
> A million dollar home in Iowa is bigger than the White House. A half
> million dollar home is a castle.
>
> Our four-bedroom, 2.5 car garage, 3 bath ranch is valued at $220K.
>
> I don't know about homes in France, but if your prices are accurate,
> it sounds worse than California...

Insert Iowa Real Estate joke here { }

:~)

[Jose]

>>Where? And at what inflation rate?
> $1 million dollars, without so much as putting it in a passbook
> savings account, will net you $50K per year for 20 years. That's two
> decades.

Where I come from you can't live comfortably on that. And if the
inflation rate is (say) five percent, then in twenty years that $50K
would buy what $19K buys now.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Honeck]

> > I don't know about homes in France, but if your prices are accurate,
> > it sounds worse than California...
>
> Insert Iowa Real Estate joke here { }
>
> :~)

If you fly out over rural Iowa, you will find the usual mix of farms,
tiny communities, and the like.

Interspersed at wide intervals you will see literal castles,
surrounded by hundreds of acres of farmland (that they lease out) and
a few dozen acres of groomed gardens and landscaping. With five-car
garages, out-buildings, and (some with) grass air strips.

These are the people who bought homes in the Chicago area, or southern
California, in the 1970s for $42,000, and sold them in 2003 for $1.2
million. They cashed out, built their dream home for $450,000, and
banked the rest.

Like I said, it's an IQ test.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > $1 million dollars, without so much as putting it in a passbook
> > savings account, will net you $50K per year for 20 years. That's two
> > decades.
>
> Where I come from you can't live comfortably on that. And if the
> inflation rate is (say) five percent, then in twenty years that $50K
> would buy what $19K buys now.

You can't live comfortably on $50K per year? Remember, you would be
incurring NONE of the expenses inherent with earning a living (I.E.:
Commuting, clothes, etc.)

Your tastes are obviously richer than mine. $50K annually, for 20
years, without lifting a finger, would be just fine by me...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> You can't live comfortably on $50K per year?

I couldn't live comfortably on $50K a year twenty years ago.

[Jose]

> You can't live comfortably on $50K per year? Remember, you would be
> incurring NONE of the expenses inherent with earning a living (I.E.:
> Commuting, clothes, etc.)

Well, I don't live in a nudist camp, and although I wouldn't "commute",
I would still need to drive.

> Your tastes are obviously richer than mine.

No, the area is more expensive to live in. What is the rent on a two
bedroom apartment where you are? True, I could move, but then I
wouldn't be near friends and family, and near what I like to do.

Could you "live comfortably" on $x a year, if you could not fly?

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Jose > wrote:

> >>Where? And at what inflation rate?
> > $1 million dollars, without so much as putting it in a passbook
> > savings account, will net you $50K per year for 20 years. That's two
> > decades.
>
> Where I come from you can't live comfortably on that.

um, my after-tax income isn't much more than $50,000. I think I'm
living pretty comfortably. Heck, my retirement target is around that.
Maybe we have different concepts of "comfortable."

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck writes:
>
>> You can't live comfortably on $50K per year?
>
> I couldn't live comfortably on $50K a year twenty years ago.

You can play games with numbers all you like. Consider $100k per year. Ten
years salary is a lot of money.

[Mxsmanic]

Maxwell writes:

> You can play games with numbers all you like. Consider $100k per year. Ten
> years salary is a lot of money.

Not at $100K per year.

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On Jun 3, 5:56 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Jay Honeck writes:
> > You can't live comfortably on $50K per year?
>
> I couldn't live comfortably on $50K a year twenty years ago.

The K means thousands, dumpster boi.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On Jun 3, 3:45 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Maxwell writes:
> > You can play games with numbers all you like. Consider $100k per year. Ten
> > years salary is a lot of money.
>
> Not at $100K per year.

Again the K means thousands,.



Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On Jun 2, 11:05 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Jay Honeck writes:
> > $1 million dollars, without so much as putting it in a passbook
> > savings account, will net you $50K per year for 20 years. That's two
> > decades.
>
> In two decades, it will be worth only $27,000 in constant dollars. After
> allowing for taxes and other expenses, it will hardly amount to anything.
>
> > I could live quite comfortably on that, without so much as a part-time
> > job...
>
> You've probably already earned considerably more than that. Where is it now?

mine? IN airplanes bikes cars and a house, not to mention the memories
of a million other things.

WEhile your´s is all in "railroad tycoon"



Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On Jun 2, 11:06 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Sylvain writes:
> > I believe this is what is called rationalization.
>
> It's called having been there and having done that.

Bwawhahwhahhswhhwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwha hwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhah hwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwha hwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhah whhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahh whahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahw hahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwh ahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhw hahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwh ahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwha hhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhha hwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhah whahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhah hwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahh whahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahw hahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwh hahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwh ahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwh ahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwha hhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhha hwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhah whhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhah whahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhah whahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahw hahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwh hahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwh ahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwh ahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhh ahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwha hwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhah whhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahh whahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhah whahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahw hhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhw hahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwh ahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwha hhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwh ahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwha hwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhah hwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhah whahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahw hahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahh whahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhw hahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwh ahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhh ahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwha hwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwha hhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhah hwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhhah whahhwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahwhahhwhahw hhahwhahwhhahwhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhha

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip]

On Jun 1, 6:32 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Matt Barrow writes:
> > Look at Jet-A consumption.
>
> > GA isn't dead, just not burning AvGas.
>
> That may be a very different flavor of GA, one completely inaccessible to the
> average private pilot flying for pleasure. I've no doubt that business jets
> are on the upswing, but that's not a realistic option for someone who normally
> rents a Cessna 152.

#

missed he point, as always.
You´re an idiot.

[Mxsmanic]

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

> mine? IN airplanes bikes cars and a house, not to mention the memories
> of a million other things.

So it didn't really go that far, did it?

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>While it's not what it once was, a million bucks is enough to live on
>>>quite comfortably for decades.
>>
>>Where? And at what inflation rate?
>
>
> $1 million dollars, without so much as putting it in a passbook
> savings account, will net you $50K per year for 20 years. That's two
> decades.
>
> Invest it even semi-wisely, and you should make it three decades or
> more.

You can $50K out annually in perpetuity and never have less than a
million. But I'm going to need a lot more than that in retirement so
one million isn't nearly enough.

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>>$1 million dollars, without so much as putting it in a passbook
>>>savings account, will net you $50K per year for 20 years. That's two
>>>decades.
>>
>>Where I come from you can't live comfortably on that. And if the
>>inflation rate is (say) five percent, then in twenty years that $50K
>>would buy what $19K buys now.
>
>
> You can't live comfortably on $50K per year? Remember, you would be
> incurring NONE of the expenses inherent with earning a living (I.E.:
> Commuting, clothes, etc.)

Don't you drive 4 miles to work?

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>>>>$1 million dollars, without so much as putting it in a passbook
>>>>savings account, will net you $50K per year for 20 years. That's two
>>>>decades.
>>>
>>>Where I come from you can't live comfortably on that. And if the
>>>inflation rate is (say) five percent, then in twenty years that $50K
>>>would buy what $19K buys now.
>>
>>
>> You can't live comfortably on $50K per year? Remember, you would be
>> incurring NONE of the expenses inherent with earning a living (I.E.:
>> Commuting, clothes, etc.)
>
> Don't you drive 4 miles to work?

Jay's not talking about his situation NOW.

[Mxsmanic]

Nomen Nescio writes:

> AKA, blowing Daddy's trust fund.

Daddy has never had a trust fund.

[[email protected]]

On Jun 2, 4:04 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> France as a whole isn't very favorable
> to GA; it was early to enter the aviation field but today many obstacles make
> it extremely difficult to fly for fun in the country.

You really do not know what you are talking about, do you?
France is a great place for flying for fun, period.

-Kees.

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> You really do not know what you are talking about, do you?

I know only too well what I'm talking about.

[[email protected]]

On Jun 4, 3:03 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:
> > You really do not know what you are talking about, do you?
>
> I know only too well what I'm talking about.

Okay, do you mind to share some of your flying experience you have in
France?

-Kees

[Ron Lee[_2_]]

M > wrote:

>On May 31, 8:05 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>>
>>
>> "The good news: the number of GA accidents in 2006 declined to 1,515
>> from the 1,669 accidente in 2005. The bad news: The NTSB reports that
>> part of the decline was due to the steady decrease in the amount of GA
>> activity. Since 1990, says the Safety Board, GA hours flown each year
>> have declined, totalling a 20% drop".
>>
>
>Just look at the drops of avgas consumption:
>
>http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/a403600001m.htm
>
>
Thanks for that link. It basically shows the drop in GA flying since
autogas or Jet A increases can't come close to making up the drop in
the last decades/years.

Ron Lee

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> Okay, do you mind to share some of your flying experience you have in
> France?

I don't fly in France except as a passenger, and then only reluctantly.

[[email protected]]

On Jun 4, 3:52 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:
> > Okay, do you mind to share some of your flying experience you have in
> > France?
>
> I don't fly in France except as a passenger, and then only reluctantly.

I see, you meant that flying for fun in France is extremely difficult
for you.
But I fail to see in what way and how the French goverment is involved
in that.


-Kees

[Skylune]

On Jun 1, 10:03 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:
> > The stock market is hot because companies are in cost cutting mode,
> > laying off americans and sending jobs overseas.
>
> Dell just posted unexpectedly high profits and announced a layoff of 8000
> people at the same time.
>
> > Its great for short-term investors but hell for the middle
> > class.
>
> It's one of the defects in the current capitalist system. Anonymous ownership
> of large corporations is a bad thing.

You really are such an idiot. Enjoy Sarco. I am, so far.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Skylune wrote:
> On Jun 1, 10:03 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>>
>> It's one of the defects in the current capitalist system. Anonymous
>> ownership of large corporations is a bad thing.
>
> You really are such an idiot. Enjoy Sarco. I am, so far.


Mr Pot, please let me introduce you to Mr. Kettle

[Jay Honeck]

> But I fail to see in what way and how the French goverment is involved
> in that.

You don't see how the French government has made it extremely
expensive for the average French citizen to fly general aviation
aircraft?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell writes:
>
>> You can play games with numbers all you like. Consider $100k per year.
>> Ten
>> years salary is a lot of money.
>
> Not at $100K per year.

Ok, so what's your yearly income moron?

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> writes:
>
>> You really do not know what you are talking about, do you?
>
> I know only too well what I'm talking about.

BS, you couldn't find your butt with both hands.

[[email protected]]

On Jun 5, 5:30 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > But I fail to see in what way and how the French goverment is involved
> > in that.
>
> You don't see how the French government has made it extremely
> expensive for the average French citizen to fly general aviation
> aircraft?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Well, flying in France is cheap compared to most other European
countries.

Next week I'm going there, if I can find a rental I'll report what the
costs are.

-Kees

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> You don't see how the French government has made it extremely
> expensive for the average French citizen to fly general aviation
> aircraft?
>

The original statement was:

"France as a whole isn't very favorable
to GA; it was early to enter the aviation field but today many
obstacles make
it extremely difficult to fly for fun in the country."

That's just not true by any kind of measure. France is EXTREMELY
favorable to GA. And it is very easy to fly for fun in the country. It
is more expensive than the US, but compared to many other countries in
Europe, France is doing very well in GA. MX has no idea what he is
talking about (so what else is new?). I have no idea what you base your
view on, either.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[[email protected]]

On Jun 5, 9:43 am, Thomas Borchert >
wrote:
> Jay,
>
> > You don't see how the French government has made it extremely
> > expensive for the average French citizen to fly general aviation
> > aircraft?
>
> The original statement was:
>
> "France as a whole isn't very favorable
> to GA; it was early to enter the aviation field but today many
> obstacles make
> it extremely difficult to fly for fun in the country."
>
> That's just not true by any kind of measure. France is EXTREMELY
> favorable to GA. And it is very easy to fly for fun in the country. It
> is more expensive than the US, but compared to many other countries in
> Europe, France is doing very well in GA. MX has no idea what he is
> talking about (so what else is new?). I have no idea what you base your
> view on, either.
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

I think that Jay is a bit frustrated that his European tour by plane
is very likely not going to happen.
When he finds out what driving costs overhere he and his family
probably end up doing 6000+km in a Fiat Panda or something
similar. ;-)

-Kees.

PS. Have you ever been to Rugen or surroundings? I'm planning to go
there late September for a weekend.
The pireps from eddh makes it look like a nice destination but I do
not know what to expect in the area.

[Matt Whiting]

wrote:
> On Jun 5, 5:30 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>>> But I fail to see in what way and how the French goverment is involved
>>> in that.
>> You don't see how the French government has made it extremely
>> expensive for the average French citizen to fly general aviation
>> aircraft?
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
> Well, flying in France is cheap compared to most other European
> countries.
>
> Next week I'm going there, if I can find a rental I'll report what the
> costs are.

Why would finding a rental be hard in a GA friendly country?

Matt

[[email protected]]

On Jun 5, 12:02 pm, Matt Whiting > wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Jun 5, 5:30 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> >>> But I fail to see in what way and how the French goverment is involved
> >>> in that.
> >> You don't see how the French government has made it extremely
> >> expensive for the average French citizen to fly general aviation
> >> aircraft?
> >> --
> >> Jay Honeck
> >> Iowa City, IA
> >> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> >> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
> > Well, flying in France is cheap compared to most other European
> > countries.
>
> > Next week I'm going there, if I can find a rental I'll report what the
> > costs are.
>
> Why would finding a rental be hard in a GA friendly country?
>
> Matt- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Most rentals in France are club aircraft, for members only.
They do that to keep cost and (as I understand) paperwork down.

It is not difficult to find a rental but to avoid the introduction fee
or contribution to become a club member first.

-Kees

[Thomas Borchert]

> PS. Have you ever been to Rugen or surroundings? I'm planning to go
> there late September for a weekend.
>

Highly recommended! Great area to fly over, great area to be at. You'll
need a rental car to get around on the ground, however. Do a ferry trip
to the little island of Hiddensee!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[[email protected]]

On Jun 5, 1:28 pm, Thomas Borchert >
wrote:
> > PS. Have you ever been to Rugen or surroundings? I'm planning to go
> > there late September for a weekend.
>
> Highly recommended! Great area to fly over, great area to be at. You'll
> need a rental car to get around on the ground, however. Do a ferry trip
> to the little island of Hiddensee!
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thanks, especially about needing a car.

-Kees

[Jay Honeck]

> MX has no idea what he is
> talking about (so what else is new?). I have no idea what you base your
> view on, either.

Facts?

If a government knowingly increases the cost of an activity, through
excessive taxation, that's called "social engineering". It's
precisely what we are fighting in the US right now with all the
proposed new taxes on flying..

Look at the cost of avgas in France, and see what percentage of the
overall cost is tax, and what percentage actually goes to pay for the
fuel. If the tax costs more than the commodity itself, it's safe to
say that the French government doesn't want its people to buy the
commodity.

Our government does the same thing with cigarettes, and other things
it regards as undesireable. Why Europe regards GA as undesireable is
the *real* question, IMHO.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

On Jun 5, 2:25 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > MX has no idea what he is
> > talking about (so what else is new?). I have no idea what you base your
> > view on, either.
>
> Facts?
>
> If a government knowingly increases the cost of an activity, through
> excessive taxation, that's called "social engineering". It's
> precisely what we are fighting in the US right now with all the
> proposed new taxes on flying..
>
> Look at the cost of avgas in France, and see what percentage of the
> overall cost is tax, and what percentage actually goes to pay for the
> fuel. If the tax costs more than the commodity itself, it's safe to
> say that the French government doesn't want its people to buy the
> commodity.
>

And that is not something exclusive for the French government, it is
common practice in much of Europe.
BTW, the French support their GA rather well.
Their landing fees are low if any, somebody has to pay for the
airfield and its infrastructure. I wonder were all that money comes
from. Not from the users, that is for sure.

> Our government does the same thing with cigarettes, and other things
> it regards as undesireable. Why Europe regards GA as undesireable is
> the *real* question, IMHO.

They do not, they regard it as not very necessary.
But it looks like opinions are changing in favour of GA with the EU
expanding to the East.

-Kees

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> I see, you meant that flying for fun in France is extremely difficult
> for you.

No, I meant it is extremely difficult, period.

> But I fail to see in what way and how the French goverment is involved
> in that.

They make the rules, and they make a lot of them.

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> Well, flying in France is cheap compared to most other European
> countries.

It's painfully expensive compared to flying in the U.S., and the U.S. isn't
cheap.

[Mxsmanic]

Thomas Borchert writes:

> That's just not true by any kind of measure. France is EXTREMELY
> favorable to GA. And it is very easy to fly for fun in the country. It
> is more expensive than the US, but compared to many other countries in
> Europe, France is doing very well in GA. MX has no idea what he is
> talking about (so what else is new?). I have no idea what you base your
> view on, either.

I base my view on what pilots who have flown in both countries tell me, and on
the readily available information on the actual costs and obstacles.

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> Why Europe regards GA as undesireable is
> the *real* question, IMHO.

Europeans don't like anything that is out of the ordinary. They believe that
exceptional things should be reserved to a privileged class. They build their
social and legal structures to enforce this. They also deny it vehemently at
every opportunity, so much so that one wonders exactly whom they are trying to
convince.

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> If the tax costs more than the commodity itself, it's safe to
> say that the French government doesn't want its people to buy the
> commodity.
>

Uhm, that's not how taxes work, mostly.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Mxsmanic,

> They make the rules, and they make a lot of them.
>

Care to show us "a lot" of rules that exceed ICAO standards in France?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[[email protected]]

On May 31, 9:29 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > Just look at the drops of avgas consumption:
>
> >http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/a403600001m.htm
>
> Oh, my God. That is incredible. And awful.
>
> I wonder if those sales figures from the 1980s included military
> aircraft? There used to be lots of military hardware burning avgas
> -- not any more...
>
> If not? Holy moley...GA really is dead.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Wow, from 1990 to 2000 the consumption dropped by only 20%. From 2000
to 2006 it dropped by 47% (nearly cut in half). Note the big drop in
2004 when lots of layoffs were occuring in high tech...

By comparison, Jet-A has been pretty stable, and the growth in Jet-A
doesn't appear to making up for the drop in 100LL, and in fact Jet-A
use has declined in the past 4 years when the drop in 100LL was
substantial. I'd say this is strong evidence that piston flying hours
are way down...

Boy, those user fees are really going to help fund the airspace system
with all that GA traffic out there! (not)

[Matt Whiting]

wrote:
> On Jun 5, 12:02 pm, Matt Whiting > wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> On Jun 5, 5:30 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>>>>> But I fail to see in what way and how the French goverment is involved
>>>>> in that.
>>>> You don't see how the French government has made it extremely
>>>> expensive for the average French citizen to fly general aviation
>>>> aircraft?
>>>> --
>>>> Jay Honeck
>>>> Iowa City, IA
>>>> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
>>>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>> Well, flying in France is cheap compared to most other European
>>> countries.
>>> Next week I'm going there, if I can find a rental I'll report what the
>>> costs are.
>> Why would finding a rental be hard in a GA friendly country?
>>
>> Matt- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Most rentals in France are club aircraft, for members only.
> They do that to keep cost and (as I understand) paperwork down.
>
> It is not difficult to find a rental but to avoid the introduction fee
> or contribution to become a club member first.

That doesn't sound like a cheap way to fly ... back to Jay's original
point. What is a typical club fee to join? My flying club is around
$200 to join and the airplane requires a lengthy check-out. Joining
temporarily as an alternative to true renting would not be convenient,
quick or inexpensive.

Matt

[[email protected]]

On Jun 6, 1:05 am, Matt Whiting > wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Jun 5, 12:02 pm, Matt Whiting > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >>> On Jun 5, 5:30 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> >>>>> But I fail to see in what way and how the French goverment is involved
> >>>>> in that.
> >>>> You don't see how the French government has made it extremely
> >>>> expensive for the average French citizen to fly general aviation
> >>>> aircraft?
> >>>> --
> >>>> Jay Honeck
> >>>> Iowa City, IA
> >>>> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> >>>> "Your Aviation Destination"
> >>> Well, flying in France is cheap compared to most other European
> >>> countries.
> >>> Next week I'm going there, if I can find a rental I'll report what the
> >>> costs are.
> >> Why would finding a rental be hard in a GA friendly country?
>
> >> Matt- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Most rentals in France are club aircraft, for members only.
> > They do that to keep cost and (as I understand) paperwork down.
>
> > It is not difficult to find a rental but to avoid the introduction fee
> > or contribution to become a club member first.
>
> That doesn't sound like a cheap way to fly ... back to Jay's original
> point. What is a typical club fee to join? My flying club is around
> $200 to join and the airplane requires a lengthy check-out. Joining
> temporarily as an alternative to true renting would not be convenient,
> quick or inexpensive.
>
> Matt- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

About the same but +100 , depending on age.
Under 17 most French clubs( at least the ones I checked) give a
discount of about 60%.
Nice way to get young people into aviation.

-Kees

[[email protected]]

On Jun 5, 4:13 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Thomas Borchert writes:
> > That's just not true by any kind of measure. France is EXTREMELY
> > favorable to GA. And it is very easy to fly for fun in the country. It
> > is more expensive than the US, but compared to many other countries in
> > Europe, France is doing very well in GA. MX has no idea what he is
> > talking about (so what else is new?). I have no idea what you base your
> > view on, either.
>
> I base my view on what pilots who have flown in both countries tell me, and on
> the readily available information on the actual costs and obstacles.

The only serious obstacles in France are the Alps.
Very little their government can do about them.

-Kees

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Thomas Borchert writes:
>
>> That's just not true by any kind of measure. France is EXTREMELY
>> favorable to GA. And it is very easy to fly for fun in the country. It
>> is more expensive than the US, but compared to many other countries in
>> Europe, France is doing very well in GA. MX has no idea what he is
>> talking about (so what else is new?). I have no idea what you base your
>> view on, either.
>
> I base my view on what pilots who have flown in both countries tell me,
> and on
> the readily available information on the actual costs and obstacles.

You actually expect us to believe you EVER listened to anyone. You obvously
don't base your viewpoints on what ANYONE tells you.

[Mxsmanic]

Maxwell writes:

> You actually expect us to believe you EVER listened to anyone.

I listen to people who know what they are talking about.

[Maxwell]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell writes:
>
>> You actually expect us to believe you EVER listened to anyone.
>
> I listen to people who know what they are talking about.

BS, you don't listen to anything but your own head rattling.

[[email protected]]

On Jun 6, 2:47 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:

> I listen to people who know what they are talking about.

That would be people you listen to only on the internet, your only
social life. And who naively think you're important and credible.
Your self-centered view of reality is documented on your web site's
FAQ:

Q. How did you learn how to create web pages?

Q. What fonts do you use on your site?

Q. Why do you use style sheets instead of FONT elements?

Do you think people are so stupid to believe these are matters which
visitors to your site actually care about? Does it not say it's all
about you?

F--