Re: Need Hold Harmless Waver for Ultralight or Experimental Sale

[Larry Smith]

"Ed Wischmeyer" > wrote in message
...
>
> > Can someone direct me to a Hold Harmless / Waiver agreement for the same
of
> > an Ultralight or experimental aircraft?
>
> The short answer is that such things aren't worth much, if anything,
> because the buyer's family, relations, whatever, may not be bound by it.
> If you're an EAA member, give them a call to discuss. I was surprised to
> find out you're at more risk disassembling a plane and selling it as
> parts than you are selling it intact. Talk to your lawyer, too. Also,
> Avemco insurance covers you for liability for a number of years after
> you sell the plane, if you had it insured with them.
>
> Ed Wischmeyer

Let's say a divorced man bought a V8-powered Prescott Pusher, which is a
real sure-enough assbuster, and had his two adult sons sign (along with him)
an indemnity agreement with the seller. The latter is held harmless
thereby under the circumstances, since those children are the only parties
with a chance to sue in the case of the buyer getting his a** busted. At
least in this state, and probably in all the other ones since the sons are
the buyer's common law heirs.

[Ken Sandyeggo]

"Larry Smith" > wrote in message >...
> "Ed Wischmeyer" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > Can someone direct me to a Hold Harmless / Waiver agreement for the same
> of
> > > an Ultralight or experimental aircraft?
> >
> > The short answer is that such things aren't worth much, if anything,
> > because the buyer's family, relations, whatever, may not be bound by it.
> > If you're an EAA member, give them a call to discuss. I was surprised to
> > find out you're at more risk disassembling a plane and selling it as
> > parts than you are selling it intact. Talk to your lawyer, too. Also,
> > Avemco insurance covers you for liability for a number of years after
> > you sell the plane, if you had it insured with them.
> >
> > Ed Wischmeyer
>
> Let's say a divorced man bought a V8-powered Prescott Pusher, which is a
> real sure-enough assbuster, and had his two adult sons sign (along with him)
> an indemnity agreement with the seller. The latter is held harmless
> thereby under the circumstances, since those children are the only parties
> with a chance to sue in the case of the buyer getting his a** busted. At
> least in this state, and probably in all the other ones since the sons are
> the buyer's common law heirs.


After the guy becomes a lawn dart, the kids will say..."We only signed
because dad asked us to so he could live his dream, and we loved our
dad so much, that we went ahead.....blah-blah-blah-blah-blah against
our better judgment. Dad coerced us into signing it through emotional
blackmail, therefore....blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.......so we think the
negligent builder should support us for the rest of our lives, because
we're too distraught to work or......blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.

Ken J. - SDCAUSA

[Richard_Tonry]

OK, OK, So what do people that sell aircraft do to protect themselves and
their families????


"Ken Sandyeggo" > wrote in message
om...
> "Larry Smith" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Ed Wischmeyer" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > Can someone direct me to a Hold Harmless / Waiver agreement for the
same
> > of
> > > > an Ultralight or experimental aircraft?
> > >
> > > The short answer is that such things aren't worth much, if anything,
> > > because the buyer's family, relations, whatever, may not be bound by
it.
> > > If you're an EAA member, give them a call to discuss. I was surprised
to
> > > find out you're at more risk disassembling a plane and selling it as
> > > parts than you are selling it intact. Talk to your lawyer, too. Also,
> > > Avemco insurance covers you for liability for a number of years after
> > > you sell the plane, if you had it insured with them.
> > >
> > > Ed Wischmeyer
> >
> > Let's say a divorced man bought a V8-powered Prescott Pusher, which is a
> > real sure-enough assbuster, and had his two adult sons sign (along with
him)
> > an indemnity agreement with the seller. The latter is held harmless
> > thereby under the circumstances, since those children are the only
parties
> > with a chance to sue in the case of the buyer getting his a** busted.
At
> > least in this state, and probably in all the other ones since the sons
are
> > the buyer's common law heirs.
>
>
> After the guy becomes a lawn dart, the kids will say..."We only signed
> because dad asked us to so he could live his dream, and we loved our
> dad so much, that we went ahead.....blah-blah-blah-blah-blah against
> our better judgment. Dad coerced us into signing it through emotional
> blackmail, therefore....blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.......so we think the
> negligent builder should support us for the rest of our lives, because
> we're too distraught to work or......blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.
>
> Ken J. - SDCAUSA

[Larry Smith]

"Richard_Tonry" > wrote in message
...
> OK, OK, So what do people that sell aircraft do to protect themselves and
> their families????

They do the best they can and don't look back because the facts are that
lawsuits against experimental aircraft builders by successors in interest
are verrrrrry rare.

>
>
> "Ken Sandyeggo" > blahblahblahblahblah in message
> om...
:)

[Larry Smith]

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:28:16 -0400, "Larry Smith" >
> wrote:
>
> >Let's say a divorced man bought a V8-powered Prescott Pusher, which is a
> >real sure-enough assbuster, and had his two adult sons sign (along with
him)
> >an indemnity agreement with the seller. The latter is held harmless
> >thereby under the circumstances, since those children are the only
parties
> >with a chance to sue in the case of the buyer getting his a** busted.
>
> ...unless he busts it on someone else's property, at which point that
> person could sue the original builder.

Well, Ray, rare but possible I guess. I'm talking about suits which have a
degree of possibility getting to the jury. In your hypothetical, it would
be doubtful.


Or the man's parents could sue

His children are his heirs at law, not his parents. If he's childless, a
parent may be an heir. I'm thinking of John Denver. Wasn't he childless?

, or
> the man's mistress


Nope, she has no standing to sue, except maybe in CA or in a state with
common law marriage.


, or the man's business partner, or the man's
> Guatemalan-kids-he-never-knew-he-had (ref. Alaska 261).

OK.
>
> All it takes is a perception of a deep pocket, and SOMEONE will find an
> excuse to sue the builder....

Getting a lawsuit to a jury is expensive but just getting it to the stage
where the judge dismisses it because the plaintiff is unable to connect the
injury to the defendant is not. Let's face it, Ray. Suits against
aircraft builders very improbable.
>
> Ron "naturally protected" Wanttaja

Me too. Shallow pockets.

[Ken Sandyeggo]

"Richard_Tonry" > wrote in message >...
> OK, OK, So what do people that sell aircraft do to protect themselves and
> their families????

Cross their fingers. It's just as effective as any hold-harmless
contract ever written.


>
>
> "Ken Sandyeggo" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Larry Smith" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "Ed Wischmeyer" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > > Can someone direct me to a Hold Harmless / Waiver agreement for the
> same
> of
> > > > > an Ultralight or experimental aircraft?
> > > >
> > > > The short answer is that such things aren't worth much, if anything,
> > > > because the buyer's family, relations, whatever, may not be bound by
> it.
> > > > If you're an EAA member, give them a call to discuss. I was surprised
> to
> > > > find out you're at more risk disassembling a plane and selling it as
> > > > parts than you are selling it intact. Talk to your lawyer, too. Also,
> > > > Avemco insurance covers you for liability for a number of years after
> > > > you sell the plane, if you had it insured with them.
> > > >
> > > > Ed Wischmeyer
> > >
> > > Let's say a divorced man bought a V8-powered Prescott Pusher, which is a
> > > real sure-enough assbuster, and had his two adult sons sign (along with
> him)
> > > an indemnity agreement with the seller. The latter is held harmless
> > > thereby under the circumstances, since those children are the only
> parties
> > > with a chance to sue in the case of the buyer getting his a** busted.
> At
> > > least in this state, and probably in all the other ones since the sons
> are
> > > the buyer's common law heirs.
> >
> >
> > After the guy becomes a lawn dart, the kids will say..."We only signed
> > because dad asked us to so he could live his dream, and we loved our
> > dad so much, that we went ahead.....blah-blah-blah-blah-blah against
> > our better judgment. Dad coerced us into signing it through emotional
> > blackmail, therefore....blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.......so we think the
> > negligent builder should support us for the rest of our lives, because
> > we're too distraught to work or......blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.
> >
> > Ken J. - SDCAUSA

[Corrie]

"Richard_Tonry" > wrote in message >...
> OK, OK, So what do people that sell aircraft do to protect themselves and
> their families????


Take a chain saw to the spar? Donate it to a museum and take a tax
deduction?

Evans quit selling plans for the VP-2 because another designer got
sued by the survivors of the passenger in a second-hand
(non-builder-flown) aircraft.

[nafod40]

Richard_Tonry wrote:

> OK, OK, So what do people that sell aircraft do to protect themselves
> and their families????

There's a good series of articles in the EAA's Sport Aviation, starting
December 1999, on this and other similar topics. Here's an excerpt from
the Feb. 2000 article, available via the EAA homebuilder web pages if you
are an EAA member...

"The real problem in selling homebuilt aircraft is that if the buyer dies
in an accident, the buyer's minor children could bring a lawsuit against
the seller for wrongful death. The children wouldn't have been a party to
the contract and, therefore, the release would not extend to them or
other members of the family who had not signed the release. Further, a
parent generally cannot sign to release a legal right of a minor child.

Another major deficiency with the release is that if an aircraft were to
crash in the middle of a neighborhood and cause injuries, death, or
property damage to others, the agreement would most likely afford no
protection.

Saddled with these realistic limitations, I still encourage the use of
the waiver and release because it creates an obstacle or a hurdle that
the aircraft's buyer must overcome in the event he decides to bring legal
action against the seller for some defective condition with the aircraft
that caused injuries. It's generally presumed that a responsible aircraft
owner would carry sufficient liability insurance to cover any damages
caused to the public as a whole."

[John Anderson]

"Ed Wischmeyer" > wrote in message


> I was surprised to
> find out you're at more risk disassembling a plane and selling it as
> parts than you are selling it intact.

I was always under the impresson that if you sold it as a non-flying
aircraft, or a bunch of parts, that you much more insulated against
lawsuits. By your comment this is not true ?????? Where did you hear this
from?
-JA

[Ed Wischmeyer]

> "Ed Wischmeyer" > wrote in message
>
> > I was surprised to
> > find out you're at more risk disassembling a plane and selling it as
> > parts than you are selling it intact.
>
> I was always under the impresson that if you sold it as a non-flying
> aircraft, or a bunch of parts, that you much more insulated against
> lawsuits. By your comment this is not true ?????? Where did you hear this
> from?


From what I consider an extremely reliable source. Don't recall the
specifics and context, though, or I would have quoted them.

Ed Wischmeyer