Should I upgrade from Skylane to Cirrus SR20?

[Marc CYBW[_2_]]

I am a fractional owner of a pair of very nice Skylanes at Springbank
airport in Calgary (CYBW) and fly here and there, mostly just around Alberta
but occasionally on vacation - usually over the mountains to the wet
coast -(i.e. Vancouver island) - about 50 hrs /yr. Great operation. Great
service. Almost always a plane available. Planning on Oshkosh next year.

The Skylanes are about 7 old and the operation wants to upgrade to SR20's.
Double the investment, substantial increase in monthly and hourly costs.
Plus I'll have to train to upgrade to glass panels (8 hrs). Currently have
210 hrs. VFR OTT. Most of night rating. No intention of getting IFR rating.

No other fractional operation around so it's SR20 or back to the beaters
(182 or Arrow) at the flying club.

Recommendations anyone?

Thanks,
Marc

--

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Marc CYBW" > wrote in message
news:leobi.15208$NV3.6049@pd7urf2no...
>I am a fractional owner of a pair of very nice Skylanes at Springbank
>airport in Calgary (CYBW) and fly here and there, mostly just around
>Alberta but occasionally on vacation - usually over the mountains to the
>wet coast -(i.e. Vancouver island) - about 50 hrs /yr. Great operation.
>Great service. Almost always a plane available. Planning on Oshkosh next
>year.
>
> The Skylanes are about 7 old and the operation wants to upgrade to SR20's.
> Double the investment, substantial increase in monthly and hourly costs.
> Plus I'll have to train to upgrade to glass panels (8 hrs). Currently have
> 210 hrs. VFR OTT. Most of night rating. No intention of getting IFR
> rating.
>
> No other fractional operation around so it's SR20 or back to the beaters
> (182 or Arrow) at the flying club.
>
> Recommendations anyone?

Buy one outright, and find a partner or two, if needed. It sounds like you
have no need for all of the expense, capability, and training required to
move up.
--
Jim in NC

[john smith[_2_]]

In article <leobi.15208$NV3.6049@pd7urf2no>,
"Marc CYBW" > wrote:

> I am a fractional owner of a pair of very nice Skylanes at Springbank
> airport in Calgary (CYBW) and fly here and there, mostly just around Alberta
> but occasionally on vacation - usually over the mountains to the wet
> coast -(i.e. Vancouver island) - about 50 hrs /yr. Great operation. Great
> service. Almost always a plane available. Planning on Oshkosh next year.
>
> The Skylanes are about 7 old and the operation wants to upgrade to SR20's.
> Double the investment, substantial increase in monthly and hourly costs.
> Plus I'll have to train to upgrade to glass panels (8 hrs). Currently have
> 210 hrs. VFR OTT. Most of night rating. No intention of getting IFR rating.
>
> No other fractional operation around so it's SR20 or back to the beaters
> (182 or Arrow) at the flying club.
>
> Recommendations anyone?

Why would anyone want to downgrade from a C182 to a Cirrus SR20?
Run the numbers for useful load, endurance, maintenance and insurance
costs.

[Peter Dohm]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article <leobi.15208$NV3.6049@pd7urf2no>,
> "Marc CYBW" > wrote:
>
> > I am a fractional owner of a pair of very nice Skylanes at Springbank
> > airport in Calgary (CYBW) and fly here and there, mostly just around
Alberta
> > but occasionally on vacation - usually over the mountains to the wet
> > coast -(i.e. Vancouver island) - about 50 hrs /yr. Great operation.
Great
> > service. Almost always a plane available. Planning on Oshkosh next year.
> >
> > The Skylanes are about 7 old and the operation wants to upgrade to
SR20's.
> > Double the investment, substantial increase in monthly and hourly costs.
> > Plus I'll have to train to upgrade to glass panels (8 hrs). Currently
have
> > 210 hrs. VFR OTT. Most of night rating. No intention of getting IFR
rating.
> >
> > No other fractional operation around so it's SR20 or back to the beaters
> > (182 or Arrow) at the flying club.
> >
> > Recommendations anyone?
>
> Why would anyone want to downgrade from a C182 to a Cirrus SR20?
> Run the numbers for useful load, endurance, maintenance and insurance
> costs.

Good heavens, there is someone even *more* opinionated than me. :-)

I was only going to suggest that how you actually use the airplane would
determine whether a change from C182 to SR20 would be an upgrade or a
downgrade. This is like comparing a Chevy Tahoe to a new Cadillac DTS; or a
Range Rover to a Jaguar XJ.

Peter

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Jun 11, 11:16 pm, "Marc CYBW" >
wrote:
> I am a fractional owner of a pair of very nice Skylanes at Springbank
> airport in Calgary (CYBW) and fly here and there, mostly just around Alberta
> but occasionally on vacation - usually over the mountains to the wet
> coast -(i.e. Vancouver island) - about 50 hrs /yr. Great operation. Great
> service. Almost always a plane available. Planning on Oshkosh next year.
>
> The Skylanes are about 7 old and the operation wants to upgrade to SR20's.
> Double the investment, substantial increase in monthly and hourly costs.
> Plus I'll have to train to upgrade to glass panels (8 hrs). Currently have
> 210 hrs. VFR OTT. Most of night rating. No intention of getting IFR rating.
>
> No other fractional operation around so it's SR20 or back to the beaters
> (182 or Arrow) at the flying club.
>
> Recommendations anyone?
>
> Thanks,
> Marc
>
> --

Just for flying day-VFR locally one hr per week, and no intention of
getting IFR, I would say an SR20 is a major overkill.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> On Jun 11, 11:16 pm, "Marc CYBW" >
> wrote:
>> I am a fractional owner of a pair of very nice Skylanes at Springbank
>> airport in Calgary (CYBW) and fly here and there, mostly just around
>> Alberta but occasionally on vacation - usually over the mountains to
>> the wet coast -(i.e. Vancouver island) - about 50 hrs /yr. Great
>> operation. Great service. Almost always a plane available. Planning
>> on Oshkosh next year.
>>
>> The Skylanes are about 7 old and the operation wants to upgrade to
>> SR20's. Double the investment, substantial increase in monthly and
>> hourly costs. Plus I'll have to train to upgrade to glass panels (8
>> hrs). Currently have 210 hrs. VFR OTT. Most of night rating. No
>> intention of getting IFR rating.
>>
>> No other fractional operation around so it's SR20 or back to the
>> beaters (182 or Arrow) at the flying club.
>>
>> Recommendations anyone?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Marc
>>
>> --
>
> Just for flying day-VFR locally one hr per week, and no intention of
> getting IFR, I would say an SR20 is a major overkill.

So is a 182.

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Jun 12, 2:50 pm, "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net>
wrote:
> Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> > On Jun 11, 11:16 pm, "Marc CYBW" >
> > wrote:
> >> I am a fractional owner of a pair of very nice Skylanes at Springbank
> >> airport in Calgary (CYBW) and fly here and there, mostly just around
> >> Alberta but occasionally on vacation - usually over the mountains to
> >> the wet coast -(i.e. Vancouver island) - about 50 hrs /yr. Great
> >> operation. Great service. Almost always a plane available. Planning
> >> on Oshkosh next year.
>
> >> The Skylanes are about 7 old and the operation wants to upgrade to
> >> SR20's. Double the investment, substantial increase in monthly and
> >> hourly costs. Plus I'll have to train to upgrade to glass panels (8
> >> hrs). Currently have 210 hrs. VFR OTT. Most of night rating. No
> >> intention of getting IFR rating.
>
> >> No other fractional operation around so it's SR20 or back to the
> >> beaters (182 or Arrow) at the flying club.
>
> >> Recommendations anyone?
>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Marc
>
> >> --
>
> > Just for flying day-VFR locally one hr per week, and no intention of
> > getting IFR, I would say an SR20 is a major overkill.
>
> So is a 182.- Hide quoted text -
>

I was just about to say that too. For the type of flying he was
describing, an a 172 or Cherokee might be the most economical choice.

[Luke Skywalker]

On Jun 11, 10:16 pm, "Marc CYBW" >
wrote:
> I am a fractional owner of a pair of very nice Skylanes at Springbank
> airport in Calgary (CYBW) and fly here and there, mostly just around Alberta
> but occasionally on vacation - usually over the mountains to the wet
> coast -(i.e. Vancouver island) - about 50 hrs /yr. Great operation. Great
> service. Almost always a plane available. Planning on Oshkosh next year.
>
> The Skylanes are about 7 old and the operation wants to upgrade to SR20's.
> Double the investment, substantial increase in monthly and hourly costs.
> Plus I'll have to train to upgrade to glass panels (8 hrs). Currently have
> 210 hrs. VFR OTT. Most of night rating. No intention of getting IFR rating.
>
> No other fractional operation around so it's SR20 or back to the beaters
> (182 or Arrow) at the flying club.
>
> Recommendations anyone?
>
> Thanks,
> Marc
>
> --

My suggestion is that you stay with the Skylane(s). run the numbers
but I bet with the insurance etc your hourly cost skyrocket, I dont
see a mission requirement that dictates the SR20...and can you carry
as much (both volume and mass)?

Loverly (grin) countryside up there. My first Boeing type rating came
at the Boeing factory (the B-737/300 when it was new) and we took one
up to that part of the country and let me do "touch and goes".
Vancouver is just wonderful.

What a gig you must have.

Robert

[Marc CYBW[_2_]]

Hi group,

Good arguments for skipping the SR20 so far, but......

...... one of the other fractional owners in our group looked at the
possibility of a few of us buying one of the 182s (as opposed to the club
rental beater) and suggested the following reasons for upgrading:

- the big red handle on the SR20
- the fun and challenge of flying a technologically current plane
- the flexibility of availability of 16 people in 2 planes vs. (say) 6 in
one plane (the 182 shared among 6)
- the upcoming engine overhaul on the 182
- laying off the risk of repairs, etc on the fractional operator
- the red carpet treatment of fractional ownership (scheduling, ramp
service, etc.)
- the big red handle (did I mention that?)
- the fun of a new airplane (did I mention that)
- the O2 system for mountain flying
- the big red handle when you're over the Rockies at 15,000 ft.(did I
mention that)
- the hassles of setting up a limited corporation to (maybe) limit our
liability

So, for an increase of about 50% in cost for a 50 hr year, he suggests we
go for it.

Seems logical so far.

Comments?

Marc



"Luke Skywalker" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Jun 11, 10:16 pm, "Marc CYBW" >
> wrote:
>> I am a fractional owner of a pair of very nice Skylanes at Springbank
>> airport in Calgary (CYBW) and fly here and there, mostly just around
>> Alberta
>> but occasionally on vacation - usually over the mountains to the wet
>> coast -(i.e. Vancouver island) - about 50 hrs /yr. Great operation.
>> Great
>> service. Almost always a plane available. Planning on Oshkosh next year.
>>
>> The Skylanes are about 7 old and the operation wants to upgrade to
>> SR20's.
>> Double the investment, substantial increase in monthly and hourly costs.
>> Plus I'll have to train to upgrade to glass panels (8 hrs). Currently
>> have
>> 210 hrs. VFR OTT. Most of night rating. No intention of getting IFR
>> rating.
>>
>> No other fractional operation around so it's SR20 or back to the beaters
>> (182 or Arrow) at the flying club.
>>
>> Recommendations anyone?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Marc
>>
>> --
>
> My suggestion is that you stay with the Skylane(s). run the numbers
> but I bet with the insurance etc your hourly cost skyrocket, I dont
> see a mission requirement that dictates the SR20...and can you carry
> as much (both volume and mass)?
>
> Loverly (grin) countryside up there. My first Boeing type rating came
> at the Boeing factory (the B-737/300 when it was new) and we took one
> up to that part of the country and let me do "touch and goes".
> Vancouver is just wonderful.
>
> What a gig you must have.
>
> Robert
>

[Mxsmanic]

Marc CYBW writes:

> Comments?

You place too much faith in a big red handle.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Marc CYBW writes:
>
>> Comments?
>
> You place too much faith in a big red handle.
>


Big red handle?

that what it looks like in your imaginary world?

Bwawhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahwhahwhahhw!

Bertie

[WestCDA]

The flying club at Springbank also just added a couple of new Diamond DA20's
to their rental/training fleet. At 50 hours per year, it would probably be
a considerable cost saving to rent those for your day VFR trips (though
availability would be more of an issue) and rent the Arrow or 182 for those
few trips where you need the useful load and/or passenger capacity.

"Marc CYBW" > wrote in message
news:leobi.15208$NV3.6049@pd7urf2no...
>I am a fractional owner of a pair of very nice Skylanes at Springbank
>airport in Calgary (CYBW) and fly here and there, mostly just around
>Alberta but occasionally on vacation - usually over the mountains to the
>wet coast -(i.e. Vancouver island) - about 50 hrs /yr. Great operation.
>Great service. Almost always a plane available. Planning on Oshkosh next
>year.
>
> The Skylanes are about 7 old and the operation wants to upgrade to SR20's.
> Double the investment, substantial increase in monthly and hourly costs.
> Plus I'll have to train to upgrade to glass panels (8 hrs). Currently have
> 210 hrs. VFR OTT. Most of night rating. No intention of getting IFR
> rating.
>
> No other fractional operation around so it's SR20 or back to the beaters
> (182 or Arrow) at the flying club.
>
> Recommendations anyone?
>
> Thanks,
> Marc
>
> --
>
>
>

[Thomas Borchert]

WestCDA,

> it would probably be
> a considerable cost saving to rent those for your day VFR trips
>

Not flying at all would be an even more considerable saving. Did the OP
say he wanted to spend as little as possible?

Driving a shiny sports car is way more fun than pulling Dad's beat-up
pick-up around the corners.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Marc CYBW writes:
>
>> Comments?
>
> You place too much faith in a big red handle.

You're totally not gellin'

[Gary[_2_]]

On Jun 13, 12:51 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Marc CYBW writes:
> > Comments?
>
> You place too much faith in a big red handle.

CTRL-ALT-Delete isn't an option for most of us here...

[Peter Dohm]

"Marc CYBW" > wrote in message
news:%SIbi.18217$1i1.13157@pd7urf3no...
> Hi group,
>
> Good arguments for skipping the SR20 so far, but......
>
> ..... one of the other fractional owners in our group looked at the
> possibility of a few of us buying one of the 182s (as opposed to the club
> rental beater) and suggested the following reasons for upgrading:
>
> - the big red handle on the SR20
> - the fun and challenge of flying a technologically current plane
> - the flexibility of availability of 16 people in 2 planes vs. (say) 6 in
> one plane (the 182 shared among 6)
> - the upcoming engine overhaul on the 182
> - laying off the risk of repairs, etc on the fractional operator
> - the red carpet treatment of fractional ownership (scheduling, ramp
> service, etc.)
> - the big red handle (did I mention that?)
> - the fun of a new airplane (did I mention that)
> - the O2 system for mountain flying
> - the big red handle when you're over the Rockies at 15,000 ft.(did I
> mention that)
> - the hassles of setting up a limited corporation to (maybe) limit our
> liability
>
> So, for an increase of about 50% in cost for a 50 hr year, he suggests we
> go for it.
>
> Seems logical so far.
>
> Comments?
>
> Marc
>
>
>
We beat the safety issue to death, and it came back to life a couple of
times. IMHO, we finally buried it after the Corey Liddle crash and, if you
are curious, the entire autopsy (conducted on this forum) should still be
available on Google.

Personally, I don't like the airplane, because of the geometry of the stick
and also the small rudder; but I concede that may be a good fit for others.

However, if you are interested in becomming an owner, I would *strongly*
suggest that you talk to some local owners and pilots. For example, one
pilot personally known to me, who also uses his Cirrus for instruction, told
me that stick geometry (which appears tiring to me) is not a factor because
the aircraft is normally flown on autopilot most of the time.

So, do those local interviews, take an extended test drive (or at least sit
in it as a sort of mock-up simulator), and get some of your fellow
fractional owners to do the same. Then, you may have a better idea of
whether it is a good fit, or a poor fit.

Peter

[WestCDA]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> WestCDA,
>
>> it would probably be
>> a considerable cost saving to rent those for your day VFR trips
>>
>
> Not flying at all would be an even more considerable saving. Did the OP
> say he wanted to spend as little as possible?

He said the SR20 would be considerably more expensive to purchase and
operate than their current Skylane, so presumably cost is a factor in his
decision. His question was should he upgrade - I mentioned another option
available at his home airport.
>
> Driving a shiny sports car is way more fun than pulling Dad's beat-up
> pick-up around the corners.

Yes, it is. As I mentioned he can rent shiny new planes now instead of the
beat up ones.
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>

[Mike Isaksen]

"Peter Dohm" > wrote
> So, do those local interviews, take an extended test drive (or at
> least sit in it as a sort of mock-up simulator), and get some of your
> fellow fractional owners to do the same. Then, you may have a
> better idea of whether it is a good fit, or a poor fit.

Damn Peter, I was happy hating the Cirrus for years until I did just that.
Then I took a half hour demo flight and my elbow didn't touch the other
guy's even once. Now, every once in a while, I find myself peeking at the
used listings.

[Dan Luke]

"Mike Isaksen" wrote:

>> So, do those local interviews, take an extended test drive (or at
>> least sit in it as a sort of mock-up simulator), and get some of your
>> fellow fractional owners to do the same. Then, you may have a
>> better idea of whether it is a good fit, or a poor fit.
>
> Damn Peter, I was happy hating the Cirrus for years until I did just that.
> Then I took a half hour demo flight and my elbow didn't touch the other
> guy's even once.


Yep. That roomy interior is one of the best things about a Cirrus.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Thomas Borchert]

Dan,

> Yep. That roomy interior is one of the best things about a Cirrus.
>

Try a Socata TB...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[gwengler]

On Jun 14, 4:58 am, Thomas Borchert >
wrote:
> Dan,
>
> > Yep. That roomy interior is one of the best things about a Cirrus.
>
> Try a Socata TB...
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Cabin width:
Socata TB: 50"
Cirrus SR20: 49"
Cessna 182: 42"

Gerd

[Thomas Borchert]

Gwengler,

> Cabin width:
> Socata TB: 50"
> Cirrus SR20: 49"
> Cessna 182: 42"
>

Yup ;-)

That's why I fly one (among other reasons).

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Gig 601XL Builder]

gwengler wrote:
> On Jun 14, 4:58 am, Thomas Borchert >
> wrote:
>> Dan,
>>
>>> Yep. That roomy interior is one of the best things about a Cirrus.
>>
>> Try a Socata TB...
>>
>> --
>> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>
> Cabin width:
> Socata TB: 50"
> Cirrus SR20: 49"
> Cessna 182: 42"
>
> Gerd

I never thought about it but the 182 is 2" more narrow than the little 601XL
I'm building.

[[email protected]]

Mark, just a thought: at 50 hours a year you've not getting lots of
PIC time, so opt for slower and more durable. I'd suggest the 182 is
more than enough airplane for your needs, and those big flaps make
slightly out of wack approaches and the like easy to correct. I'd
rather share the sky with a pilot whose skills far exceed the
airplane's demands.





On Jun 11, 11:16 pm, "Marc CYBW" >
wrote:
> I am a fractional owner of a pair of very nice Skylanes at Springbank
> airport in Calgary (CYBW) and fly here and there, mostly just around Alberta
> but occasionally on vacation - usually over the mountains to the wet
> coast -(i.e. Vancouver island) - about 50 hrs /yr. Great operation. Great
> service. Almost always a plane available. Planning on Oshkosh next year.
>
> The Skylanes are about 7 old and the operation wants to upgrade to SR20's.
> Double the investment, substantial increase in monthly and hourly costs.
> Plus I'll have to train to upgrade to glass panels (8 hrs). Currently have
> 210 hrs. VFR OTT. Most of night rating. No intention of getting IFR rating.
>
> No other fractional operation around so it's SR20 or back to the beaters
> (182 or Arrow) at the flying club.
>
> Recommendations anyone?
>
> Thanks,
> Marc
>
> --

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:45:15 GMT, "Marc CYBW"
> wrote:

>Hi group,
>
>Good arguments for skipping the SR20 so far, but......
>
>..... one of the other fractional owners in our group looked at the
>possibility of a few of us buying one of the 182s (as opposed to the club
>rental beater) and suggested the following reasons for upgrading:
>
>- the big red handle on the SR20
>- the fun and challenge of flying a technologically current plane
>- the flexibility of availability of 16 people in 2 planes vs. (say) 6 in
>one plane (the 182 shared among 6)
>- the upcoming engine overhaul on the 182
>- laying off the risk of repairs, etc on the fractional operator
>- the red carpet treatment of fractional ownership (scheduling, ramp
>service, etc.)
>- the big red handle (did I mention that?)
>- the fun of a new airplane (did I mention that)
>- the O2 system for mountain flying
>- the big red handle when you're over the Rockies at 15,000 ft.(did I
>mention that)
>- the hassles of setting up a limited corporation to (maybe) limit our
>liability
>
>So, for an increase of about 50% in cost for a 50 hr year, he suggests we
>go for it.

50%?

Around here it'd be 300 to 500% when the entire cost of the fractional
ownership is taken into account. Just the hourly rates are well over
double that of a 182 unless you are talking a 182 RG. Add to that a
very large chunk of change for buying in plus the tremendous amount of
training you will need from Cirrus to maintain currency.

>
>Seems logical so far.
>
>Comments?
>
>Marc

[Marty Shapiro]

"Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in
:

> On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:45:15 GMT, "Marc CYBW"
> > wrote:
>
>>Hi group,
>>
>>Good arguments for skipping the SR20 so far, but......
>>
>>..... one of the other fractional owners in our group looked at the
>>possibility of a few of us buying one of the 182s (as opposed to the
>>club rental beater) and suggested the following reasons for upgrading:
>>
>>- the big red handle on the SR20
>>- the fun and challenge of flying a technologically current plane
>>- the flexibility of availability of 16 people in 2 planes vs. (say) 6
>>in one plane (the 182 shared among 6)
>>- the upcoming engine overhaul on the 182
>>- laying off the risk of repairs, etc on the fractional operator
>>- the red carpet treatment of fractional ownership (scheduling, ramp
>>service, etc.)
>>- the big red handle (did I mention that?)
>>- the fun of a new airplane (did I mention that)
>>- the O2 system for mountain flying
>>- the big red handle when you're over the Rockies at 15,000 ft.(did I
>>mention that)
>>- the hassles of setting up a limited corporation to (maybe) limit our
>>liability
>>
>>So, for an increase of about 50% in cost for a 50 hr year, he suggests
>> we go for it.
>
> 50%?
>
> Around here it'd be 300 to 500% when the entire cost of the fractional
> ownership is taken into account. Just the hourly rates are well over
> double that of a 182 unless you are talking a 182 RG. Add to that a
> very large chunk of change for buying in plus the tremendous amount of
> training you will need from Cirrus to maintain currency.
>
>>
>>Seems logical so far.
>>
>>Comments?
>>
>>Marc
>

I built a spread sheet several years ago when the fractional owerships
were offering a new C-182 and compared it with a rental Piper Arrow 200.
Using 0% for the lost opportunity cost of the down payment, it still took
200 hours/year before the fractional ownership was only 50% more than the
rental cost. At 5% interest for the opportunity cost of the down payment,
I would have needed 250 hours to have the fractional ownership only be 50%
more than renting.

I then did the comparison between the fractional C-182 and used double
the Arrow 200 rate to guess at the rental rate for a C-210. At that point,
with 5% interest rate, the break even was 150 hours. At 50 hours, the
fractional C-182 was 20% more than 50 hours rental for the C-210.

If someone has the buy-in, monthly charges, and hourly costs for the
various plans (silver, gold, platinum) for a fractional SR-20 or SR-22 and
the currently rental rate for a C-210 or C-182 + monthly flying club
membership, I'll see if I can find my old spread sheet and plug current
numbers in. I'll use current 10-year t-note yeild for the interest rate on
the opportunity cost of money.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Peter Dohm]

"Marty Shapiro" > wrote in message
...
> "Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in
> :
>
> > On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:45:15 GMT, "Marc CYBW"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>Hi group,
> >>
> >>Good arguments for skipping the SR20 so far, but......
> >>
> >>..... one of the other fractional owners in our group looked at the
> >>possibility of a few of us buying one of the 182s (as opposed to the
> >>club rental beater) and suggested the following reasons for upgrading:
> >>
> >>- the big red handle on the SR20
> >>- the fun and challenge of flying a technologically current plane
> >>- the flexibility of availability of 16 people in 2 planes vs. (say) 6
> >>in one plane (the 182 shared among 6)
> >>- the upcoming engine overhaul on the 182
> >>- laying off the risk of repairs, etc on the fractional operator
> >>- the red carpet treatment of fractional ownership (scheduling, ramp
> >>service, etc.)
> >>- the big red handle (did I mention that?)
> >>- the fun of a new airplane (did I mention that)
> >>- the O2 system for mountain flying
> >>- the big red handle when you're over the Rockies at 15,000 ft.(did I
> >>mention that)
> >>- the hassles of setting up a limited corporation to (maybe) limit our
> >>liability
> >>
> >>So, for an increase of about 50% in cost for a 50 hr year, he suggests
> >> we go for it.
> >
> > 50%?
> >
> > Around here it'd be 300 to 500% when the entire cost of the fractional
> > ownership is taken into account. Just the hourly rates are well over
> > double that of a 182 unless you are talking a 182 RG. Add to that a
> > very large chunk of change for buying in plus the tremendous amount of
> > training you will need from Cirrus to maintain currency.
> >
> >>
> >>Seems logical so far.
> >>
> >>Comments?
> >>
> >>Marc
> >
>
> I built a spread sheet several years ago when the fractional owerships
> were offering a new C-182 and compared it with a rental Piper Arrow 200.
> Using 0% for the lost opportunity cost of the down payment, it still took
> 200 hours/year before the fractional ownership was only 50% more than the
> rental cost. At 5% interest for the opportunity cost of the down payment,
> I would have needed 250 hours to have the fractional ownership only be 50%
> more than renting.
>
> I then did the comparison between the fractional C-182 and used double
> the Arrow 200 rate to guess at the rental rate for a C-210. At that
point,
> with 5% interest rate, the break even was 150 hours. At 50 hours, the
> fractional C-182 was 20% more than 50 hours rental for the C-210.
>
> If someone has the buy-in, monthly charges, and hourly costs for the
> various plans (silver, gold, platinum) for a fractional SR-20 or SR-22 and
> the currently rental rate for a C-210 or C-182 + monthly flying club
> membership, I'll see if I can find my old spread sheet and plug current
> numbers in. I'll use current 10-year t-note yeild for the interest rate
on
> the opportunity cost of money.
>
> --
> Marty Shapiro
> Silicon Rallye Inc.
>
> (remove SPAMNOT to email me)

I don't have the numbers, but I expect the result to be an interesting read.

BTW, it might also be interesting to plug in the cost of the Skylane with a
BRS kit added. Personally I think that it is silly, but if someone simply
must have that feature (which I find analogous to Linus' Blanket in the
"Peanuts" comic strip) then the addition to an aircraft that demonstrated
recovery from a 1/2 turn spin entry would seem preferable.

Peter