What Used Plane For First Time Purchase?

[CareBear]

All:

I am still pondering whether to buy an airplane or continue renting.
Renting presents a few problems: availability being the main one. I
mentioned in a previous post that there was an opportunity to buy a 1980
Beech Sundowner but since then the owner decided not to sell (thanks B A R R
Y for the write-up). Here are my thoughts on what I "think" I want to
purchase should it be decided to go that route.

I would prefer a plane that had from 180 to 200hp (not ready for complex or
retract yet). High wing or low wing doesn't really matter (I trained in a
Cessna 152). I will be getting checked out in the Cessna 172 real soon. I
plan on using the plane to get IFR certified and keep it 2-4 years.

Mission....I plan on making several local (less than 50nm) and at least 5 xc
flights (from 100 to 500nm) per year. I will have the wife and a couple of
grandchildren (small in size). Definitely need at least 4 seats. The more
roomier the better.

I don't know what brand or model is the safest, best to buy, easiest to
handle, less troublesome, etc. One guy told me to get a Cessna 172 only for
the 1976 to 1979 models. He didn't offer an explanation as to why only
these models. Another guy said get a Piper Warrior.

Frankly, I don't know what to get. As a new pilot (80-100hrs) I am not all
familiar with the world of airplanes, so therefore I solicit your advice and
opinions.

Almost forgot...would be willing to spend up to $70,000 on the right plane.

Thanks,

--
CareBear

[kontiki]

Carebear... sounds like a nice well cared for 172 would fit
your mission. Forget about the year (obviously the newer the better)
just make sure its been well cared for and flown and the avionics
are fairly new and good shape and its been upgraded and so
forth. So don't necessarily be looking for the lowest hours, but
you don't want want that's been used as a trainer either.
You might also consider some sort of Piper Cherokee, although
I think the fixed gear ones are ugly, but they are good planes.

I would not go with a slowdowner, stick with something
mainstream. If you could find a good 180 HP Skyhawk that
would probably be your best bet.

When you start doing regular trips of 500Nm or more you are
going to want something faster.... pluggin along at 110 knots
gets old after a while.

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Jun 13, 7:48 pm, "CareBear" > wrote:
> All:
>
> I am still pondering whether to buy an airplane or continue renting.
> Renting presents a few problems: availability being the main one. I
> mentioned in a previous post that there was an opportunity to buy a 1980
> Beech Sundowner but since then the owner decided not to sell (thanks B A R R
> Y for the write-up). Here are my thoughts on what I "think" I want to
> purchase should it be decided to go that route.
>
> I would prefer a plane that had from 180 to 200hp (not ready for complex or
> retract yet). High wing or low wing doesn't really matter (I trained in a
> Cessna 152). I will be getting checked out in the Cessna 172 real soon. I
> plan on using the plane to get IFR certified and keep it 2-4 years.
>
> Mission....I plan on making several local (less than 50nm) and at least 5 xc
> flights (from 100 to 500nm) per year. I will have the wife and a couple of
> grandchildren (small in size). Definitely need at least 4 seats. The more
> roomier the better.
>
> I don't know what brand or model is the safest, best to buy, easiest to
> handle, less troublesome, etc. One guy told me to get a Cessna 172 only for
> the 1976 to 1979 models. He didn't offer an explanation as to why only
> these models. Another guy said get a Piper Warrior.
>
> Frankly, I don't know what to get. As a new pilot (80-100hrs) I am not all
> familiar with the world of airplanes, so therefore I solicit your advice and
> opinions.
>
> Almost forgot...would be willing to spend up to $70,000 on the right plane.
>
> Thanks,
>

In that price range, a 172 or an Archer might be the best bet. Take a
look at aso.com or controller.com

[[email protected]]

A 172 might do very well for a while, including instrument training.
For actual instrument flight though, the airplane's range and speed
are a serious limitation.

One of the Piker fixed gears would work well too. One door gets to be
a limitation if you're going to be carrying many people. I owned a
Mooney, great airplane, great instrument platform, but checking fuel
and climbing aboard in rain is not fun.

Look at the C172 PA 180 classes, you won't go very far wrong with
either.

On Jun 13, 8:01 pm, kontiki > wrote:
> Carebear... sounds like a nice well cared for 172 would fit
> your mission. Forget about the year (obviously the newer the better)
> just make sure its been well cared for and flown and the avionics
> are fairly new and good shape and its been upgraded and so
> forth. So don't necessarily be looking for the lowest hours, but
> you don't want want that's been used as a trainer either.
> You might also consider some sort of Piper Cherokee, although
> I think the fixed gear ones are ugly, but they are good planes.
>
> I would not go with a slowdowner, stick with something
> mainstream. If you could find a good 180 HP Skyhawk that
> would probably be your best bet.
>
> When you start doing regular trips of 500Nm or more you are
> going to want something faster.... pluggin along at 110 knots
> gets old after a while.

[Luke Skywalker]

On Jun 13, 6:48 pm, "CareBear" > wrote:
> All:
>
> I am still pondering whether to buy an airplane or continue renting.
> Renting presents a few problems: availability being the main one. I
> mentioned in a previous post that there was an opportunity to buy a 1980
> Beech Sundowner but since then the owner decided not to sell (thanks B A R R
> Y for the write-up). Here are my thoughts on what I "think" I want to
> purchase should it be decided to go that route.
>
> I would prefer a plane that had from 180 to 200hp (not ready for complex or
> retract yet). High wing or low wing doesn't really matter (I trained in a
> Cessna 152). I will be getting checked out in the Cessna 172 real soon. I
> plan on using the plane to get IFR certified and keep it 2-4 years.
>
> Mission....I plan on making several local (less than 50nm) and at least 5 xc
> flights (from 100 to 500nm) per year. I will have the wife and a couple of
> grandchildren (small in size). Definitely need at least 4 seats. The more
> roomier the better.
>
> I don't know what brand or model is the safest, best to buy, easiest to
> handle, less troublesome, etc. One guy told me to get a Cessna 172 only for
> the 1976 to 1979 models. He didn't offer an explanation as to why only
> these models. Another guy said get a Piper Warrior.
>
> Frankly, I don't know what to get. As a new pilot (80-100hrs) I am not all
> familiar with the world of airplanes, so therefore I solicit your advice and
> opinions.
>
> Almost forgot...would be willing to spend up to $70,000 on the right plane.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> CareBear

Hello:

You have gotten pretty good suggestions so far...all things equal
where I would send you is to either the Skylane or a 180 HP Cardinal.

OK yousaid you were not ready for complex...but a constant speed prop
is not all that difficult to master; it is a tad more expensive to
maintain, but if you buy one in good shape, not that much.

The CSP will change your entire outlook on performance and with the
Skylane or 180HP cardinal you move into an entirely better performing
airplane. My experience with airplanes has mimiced my parents. Dad
had two kids then a baby (so three but the younest came latter) and
while the 172 was quite affordable and would get the job done, the
load dissapeared rapidly and performance was "adequate" but on a hot
day ...less.

The 182 and Cardinal are fine flying instrument planes, hold their
resale quite well and both are well within your price range.

ONe cant go wrong with a 172 of course and it is a great starter. My
late wife and I thundered all over the eastern seaboard with it (from
Norfolk and then GA and PENS) but the limitations I mentioned above
were there.

Barnstormers/trade a plane...some great places. I have never known
anyone who was looking for a 172 and could afford a Cardinal/182 who
was not happy with the latter choice. The CS is triival to master
with a good instructor.

I love PIper singles but for ease of entry with kids and such plus the
view a high wing has it all over the sky. With small kids...looking
is a big deal.

Hope this helps...take your time I am sure you will make the right
decision.

Robert

[Dan Luke]

"CareBear" wrote:

> Frankly, I don't know what to get. As a new pilot (80-100hrs) I am not all
> familiar with the world of airplanes, so therefore I solicit your advice and
> opinions.
>
> Almost forgot...would be willing to spend up to $70,000 on the right plane.

180 HP 172s are a good choice for your requirements:

http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1117314&guid=D3DC988EAE3F4C1FAEB5091258848129

So are Cherokee 180s:

http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1112273&guid=D3DC988EAE3F4C1FAEB5091258848129


You might even find a nice 182 in your price range; it's a buyer's market:

http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1107039&guid=D3DC988EAE3F4C1FAEB5091258848129


--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[tony roberts]

> Almost forgot...would be willing to spend up to $70,000 on the right plane.
>
> Thanks,

A 172 would be good.
A 180HP 172 would be better.

Whjatever you buy, consider the purchase price as the downpayment on the
operating costs. Better to look at those!

HTH

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Longworth[_1_]]

On Jun 13, 8:16 pm, Luke Skywalker > wrote:
..> Hello:
>
> You have gotten pretty good suggestions so far...all things equal
> where I would send you is to either the Skylane or a 180 HP Cardinal.

I agree with your assessment about 180HP Cardinal. We own one in
the last 4 years. We fly between 200 to 300hrs a year with VFR locals
and IFR cross country. It handles crosswind much better than C172. I
have not compared spec but the Cardinal appear to be better at short
field landing. We love the roomy backseat with plenty of room for our
50lb dogs, camera bag, video bag, air bag etc. The cargo area is also
very spacious. We started aircamping last year. With the backseat
removed, we had no problems carrying two folding bikes, all tenting
equipment, the dog and the rest of the luggage. We also love to take
aerial pictures/videos. The strutless Cardinal is just simply the
best for this purpose.

Parts availability have never been a problem. We try to do of lot
of maintenance ourselves with lots of tips and tricks from fellow
cardinalfyers at CFO. I highly recommend checking out CFO's website

http://www.cardinalflyers.com/

Hai Longworth

[Dave S]

Grumman Tiger.

It will cruise right up there with older nonturbo arrows and nonturbo
older mooneys..

Only the tiger is fixed gear, fixed prop, and the other two are retracts.

Excellent vis. Canopy can open in flight for ventilation, as well as
full open on the ground. Only downside is when it rains and you have to
exit.

I've taken one on several cross countries.. flown 9 hours in one day..
There are several mods out there with the cowl, extended range fuel, etc.

Runner up? A Grumman Cheetah.. 30 less hp. ALmost the same plane.

Dave

CareBear wrote:
> All:
>
> I am still pondering whether to buy an airplane or continue renting.
> Renting presents a few problems: availability being the main one. I
> mentioned in a previous post that there was an opportunity to buy a 1980
> Beech Sundowner but since then the owner decided not to sell (thanks B A R R
> Y for the write-up). Here are my thoughts on what I "think" I want to
> purchase should it be decided to go that route.
>
> I would prefer a plane that had from 180 to 200hp (not ready for complex or
> retract yet). High wing or low wing doesn't really matter (I trained in a
> Cessna 152). I will be getting checked out in the Cessna 172 real soon. I
> plan on using the plane to get IFR certified and keep it 2-4 years.
>
> Mission....I plan on making several local (less than 50nm) and at least 5 xc
> flights (from 100 to 500nm) per year. I will have the wife and a couple of
> grandchildren (small in size). Definitely need at least 4 seats. The more
> roomier the better.
>
> I don't know what brand or model is the safest, best to buy, easiest to
> handle, less troublesome, etc. One guy told me to get a Cessna 172 only for
> the 1976 to 1979 models. He didn't offer an explanation as to why only
> these models. Another guy said get a Piper Warrior.
>
> Frankly, I don't know what to get. As a new pilot (80-100hrs) I am not all
> familiar with the world of airplanes, so therefore I solicit your advice and
> opinions.
>
> Almost forgot...would be willing to spend up to $70,000 on the right plane.
>
> Thanks,
>

[Luke Skywalker]

On Jun 13, 9:09 pm, Longworth > wrote:
> On Jun 13, 8:16 pm, Luke Skywalker > wrote:
> .> Hello:
>
>
>
> > You have gotten pretty good suggestions so far...all things equal
> > where I would send you is to either the Skylane or a 180 HP Cardinal.
>
> I agree with your assessment about 180HP Cardinal. We own one in
> the last 4 years. We fly between 200 to 300hrs a year with VFR locals
> and IFR cross country. It handles crosswind much better than C172. I
> have not compared spec but the Cardinal appear to be better at short
> field landing. We love the roomy backseat with plenty of room for our
> 50lb dogs, camera bag, video bag, air bag etc. The cargo area is also
> very spacious. We started aircamping last year. With the backseat
> removed, we had no problems carrying two folding bikes, all tenting
> equipment, the dog and the rest of the luggage. We also love to take
> aerial pictures/videos. The strutless Cardinal is just simply the
> best for this purpose.
>
> Parts availability have never been a problem. We try to do of lot
> of maintenance ourselves with lots of tips and tricks from fellow
> cardinalfyers at CFO. I highly recommend checking out CFO's website
>
> http://www.cardinalflyers.com/
>
> Hai Longworth

Hal.

The CArdinal (180hp) is in my view one of the best deals going in
aviation right now. It is a buyers market but there are great deals
on the bird because in no small measure it still carries some of the
"angst" from its inception....which was all about instructors not
knowing how to instruct in an airplane that didnt have a seperate
elevator from the stabilizer!

The airplane has all the advantages you mention..I know a bunch of
folks who use it for aerial photography, including one chum who does a
land office business photographing sites for sale in East Texas.

I fell in love with one when I was in College because it was the IFR
trainer for the club and I got a lot of time in it then. It was also
a fun X country plane particularly to take ones date out on a picnic.
The panel is nicely laid out etc.

I have done some prepurchase flights for a bunch of them over the last
10 years and have not seen a dissapointed buyer yet. If I didnt ahve
the 175 I would be looking for one!

The CFO site is great...I poke there a lot.

Robert

[Jose]

> I am still pondering whether to buy an airplane or continue renting.

Two other options: Flying club and partnership. These give you the
benefits of owning (access, no minimum charges, known maintanance, etc)
and help dilute the disadvantages and costs. You also get to know more
pilots.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Paul kgyy]

Owning will probably turn out to be more expensive than renting unless
you have time to fly a lot.

Set aside 10% of the purchase price for fixup costs on any used
airplane you buy. there will be things that the previous owner
thought were OK but you will want to fix/replace.

Look for current avionics. The value of new avionics in a used
airplane runs only about half the installed cost.

Get one that your local mechanics know how to maintain.

Cessnas and Pipers are numerous enough that parts are readily
available. Beech parts are available too, but tend to be a lot more
expensive.

Seriously consider a partnership if you can find one, but make sure
that all members are active, and have a knowledgeable mechanic review
the aircraft logbooks (this goes for anything you buy).

Don't skimp on the pre-purchase inspection. Have it done by an
independent shop.

[Shirl]

Paul kgyy > wrote:
> Don't skimp on the pre-purchase inspection. Have it
> done by an independent shop.

Do your homework and find a REALLY reputable mechanic to do a pre-buy
inspection, and if possible, familiarize YOURSELF with obvious things
and be present at the pre-buy inspection, looking over their shoulders.
I trusted my pre-buy inspection, done by an independent mechanic/shop.
They found nothing wrong -- that should have been the first clue ...
there's always *something* to be found. After buying it, we discovered
that the inboard wing ribs were cracked on both sides, the inboard hinge
on the flaps on both sides had been attached with Home Depot rivets, and
the flap skin beneath those hinges on both sides had 1.5-inch cracks.
There was extensive corrosion behind the switches/fuses. As you can well
imagine, that was an exten$ive repair. I would not have bought the
airplane had I known. That pre-buy inspection was a joke.

[Ross]

Dan Luke wrote:
> "CareBear" wrote:
>
>
>>Frankly, I don't know what to get. As a new pilot (80-100hrs) I am not all
>>familiar with the world of airplanes, so therefore I solicit your advice and
>>opinions.
>>
>>Almost forgot...would be willing to spend up to $70,000 on the right plane.
>
>
> 180 HP 172s are a good choice for your requirements:
>
> http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1117314&guid=D3DC988EAE3F4C1FAEB5091258848129
>
> So are Cherokee 180s:
>
> http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1112273&guid=D3DC988EAE3F4C1FAEB5091258848129
>
>
> You might even find a nice 182 in your price range; it's a buyer's market:
>
> http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1107039&guid=D3DC988EAE3F4C1FAEB5091258848129
>
>

A word of caution. I have a wonderful '65 C-172F with the 180 hp
conversion and a CS prop. It performs great. Limitations are: for models
earlier than '68 or '69 there are no STC for more GW with the larger
engines. You will still have 36 gallons of fuel for the larger engine
and the legs can be short. It will be a three place plane unless you off
load some fuel. I usually fly with wife and light grandchildren so it is
not a problem. I use about 65% power to give me a 9.0 gph burn. Being so
conservative I plan for flights no longer than 2.5 hours. Just some
thoughts. This AC is a /G.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[EridanMan]

Hey CareBear,

I just went through the same process, and within the last year
Purchased a '67 Cherokee 140. Lessons from experience-

1. Prepurchase Inspection. No question, no doubts, if the 'deal of
the year' will pass you buy because there is no time, walk away. I
walked away from two lemons before settling on my current bird.
2. Be wary of nice radio panels/paint jobs. They cost a fortune when
factored into the purchase price of the bird, they're not particularly
relevant. More fundamentally though, Every feature and system you add
to a plane will cost money to maintain when it breaks... The fewer
systems you have in your plane, the fewer things you'll need to worry
about to keep your bird running 'perfect' (and believe me, as soon as
one thing goes inop, it'll bug you like a splinter until you have it
fixed).
3. When it comes to features, know the difference between 'nice to
have' and '_really_ makes life easier for the type of flying I do'.
Avoid the former, invest in the latter.
4. Interior condition is far more important than exterior condition.
5. No matter how well you budget, how much information you get, and
how much planning you do, It WILL be more expensive than you predict.
Be ready for it.
6. Beware of mission creep... I'm already feeling it. Your needs will
change as you become a better pilot.
7. There is no more damning sensation for an aircraft owner than the
feeling of regret.

That's really about it. As for specific models - fly any plane before
you buy (obviously). Grumman's are great, fast, nice looking birds...
but if you're over 6'2 (or you ever plan on carrying someone who is)
don't even think about it. Cessna's are the gold standard, but you
pay a premium because of it. I am partial to Pipers, which tend to be
slightly cheaper than Cessna's for equivolent performance (and the
PA-28 series tends to be slightly cheaper to maintain)... That said,
this is PURELY an issue of personal preference. All aircraft have
quirks and design issues you'll work around, the trick is finding an
aircraft whose quirks annoy you the least (or that you like). Buying
an airplane is kinda like finding a human companion in that regard;).

I hope none of this scares you off from aircraft ownership. Its a
beautiful thing. The love between an aircraft owner and his bird is
something that is hard to explain to an outsider. Its a pain in the
ass... more demanding than you can imagine. But like any good love
affair- utterly worth it in every regard if you play your cards right.

-Scott

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
EridanMan > wrote:

> 4. Interior condition is far more important than exterior condition.

um, it doesn't fly any better with a nice leather interior.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Aluckyguess]

I bought a Cherokee 180 for my first plane. It treated me well and would
recomend it to any new pilot. It had a usefull load of 1100 lbs. and would
cruise 124 knots tas.

"CareBear" > wrote in message
...
> All:
>
> I am still pondering whether to buy an airplane or continue renting.
> Renting presents a few problems: availability being the main one. I
> mentioned in a previous post that there was an opportunity to buy a 1980
> Beech Sundowner but since then the owner decided not to sell (thanks B A R
> R Y for the write-up). Here are my thoughts on what I "think" I want to
> purchase should it be decided to go that route.
>
> I would prefer a plane that had from 180 to 200hp (not ready for complex
> or retract yet). High wing or low wing doesn't really matter (I trained
> in a Cessna 152). I will be getting checked out in the Cessna 172 real
> soon. I plan on using the plane to get IFR certified and keep it 2-4
> years.
>
> Mission....I plan on making several local (less than 50nm) and at least 5
> xc flights (from 100 to 500nm) per year. I will have the wife and a
> couple of grandchildren (small in size). Definitely need at least 4
> seats. The more roomier the better.
>
> I don't know what brand or model is the safest, best to buy, easiest to
> handle, less troublesome, etc. One guy told me to get a Cessna 172 only
> for the 1976 to 1979 models. He didn't offer an explanation as to why
> only these models. Another guy said get a Piper Warrior.
>
> Frankly, I don't know what to get. As a new pilot (80-100hrs) I am not
> all familiar with the world of airplanes, so therefore I solicit your
> advice and opinions.
>
> Almost forgot...would be willing to spend up to $70,000 on the right
> plane.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> CareBear
>

[EridanMan]

Not nice leather seats, no... but pilot's do tend to fly better when
they're not falling through the seat;) I hate to admit, but I have
first hand experience with this one.

Either way, considering that I prefer to spend more time sitting in my
bird than looking at her, I prefer interior condition to exterior
beauty. Just my personal preference.

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
EridanMan > wrote:

> Not nice leather seats, no... but pilot's do tend to fly better when
> they're not falling through the seat;) I hate to admit, but I have
> first hand experience with this one.

well, ok. I was starting with the assumption that the interior and exterior
are airworthy.
>
> Either way, considering that I prefer to spend more time sitting in my
> bird than looking at her, I prefer interior condition to exterior
> beauty. Just my personal preference.

Me to. But consider that the interior is something us owners get to
improve ourselves and is far less expensive than painting the airplane.
I'd rather buy an airplane was a tired interior that had an excellent
paint job (which would include complete stripping and corrosion repair)
than an airplane with a perfect interior and a tired paint job (with
who knows what corrosion lurking there).

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Shirl]

Bob Noel > wrote:
> I'd rather buy an airplane was a tired interior that had an excellent
> paint job (which would include complete stripping and corrosion repair)
> than an airplane with a perfect interior and a tired paint job (with
> who knows what corrosion lurking there).

The whole airplane *and its logbooks* tells a story. A buyer shouldn't
make any assumptions about corrosion based on new paint. There's no
substitute for a very thorough pre-buy inspection, with or without new
paint or new interior. The condition of the exterior/interior is *one*
indication of what kind of life/care it has had. A brand new, recently
painted exterior with an old, tired-and-tattered interior tells one
story; paint that was done 15 years ago that still looks new with an
old-but-clean, well-maintained interior tells another. Up to you and the
pre-buy mechanic to read the logs, inspect the plane, and draw your own
conclusions about what kind of care it has had, how it was used, and
what you'll want/need to do if you buy it.

[[email protected]]

On Jun 13, 5:48 pm, "CareBear" > wrote:
> All:
>
> I am still pondering whether to buy an airplane or continue renting.
> Renting presents a few problems: availability being the main one. I
> mentioned in a previous post that there was an opportunity to buy a 1980
> Beech Sundowner but since then the owner decided not to sell (thanks B A R R
> Y for the write-up). Here are my thoughts on what I "think" I want to
> purchase should it be decided to go that route.
>
> I would prefer a plane that had from 180 to 200hp (not ready for complex or
> retract yet). High wing or low wing doesn't really matter (I trained in a
> Cessna 152). I will be getting checked out in the Cessna 172 real soon. I
> plan on using the plane to get IFR certified and keep it 2-4 years.
>
> Mission....I plan on making several local (less than 50nm) and at least 5 xc
> flights (from 100 to 500nm) per year. I will have the wife and a couple of
> grandchildren (small in size). Definitely need at least 4 seats. The more
> roomier the better.
>
> I don't know what brand or model is the safest, best to buy, easiest to
> handle, less troublesome, etc. One guy told me to get a Cessna 172 only for
> the 1976 to 1979 models. He didn't offer an explanation as to why only
> these models. Another guy said get a Piper Warrior.
>
> Frankly, I don't know what to get. As a new pilot (80-100hrs) I am not all
> familiar with the world of airplanes, so therefore I solicit your advice and
> opinions.
>
> Almost forgot...would be willing to spend up to $70,000 on the right plane.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> CareBear

I've always thought it would be cool to pick up an Archer with a run-
out engine for a reasonable price, then put the STC'd Thielert diesel
engine in it. It really boosts the performance and it cuts the fuel
burn down quite a bit...

Dean

[John[_11_]]

About all the suggestions are good. I like a plane with long legs to
give more options on fuel stops. You'd think it's easy to get fuel, but
I wish I had a dollar for every time I've stopped at an airport and
found fuel unavailable due to any number of reasons. Attendant went
home early, pump is broken, we ran out, just got a delivery and it has
to settle. I've heard them all.

The 172 had a mediocre engine from 1977-1980 known as the H model
engine. The problems it had with its cam are reasonably well understood
and preventable, as I understand it. These years make for good
candidates for the 180 hp conversion. Many already have 50 gallon fuel
capacity, which is desirable for the 180 hp engine.

I wouldn't get a pre-1968 172, when the engine was a Continental O-300.
I think making TBO without cylinder work isn't as common in that engine.

The PowerFlow Systems exhaust mod seems to bolster climb performance and
top speed a bit for the small Lycomings. You might consider that, if
you have some dollars left over.

You might also mention where you fly to and from. Weather and terrain
influence aircraft choice. I would like two doors or a sliding canopy,
if there are four people to load and unload at every stop.

Finally, if I may broaden the topic and give a minor challenge, I'd
question whether your premise is a good one. I know I wasn't up to
250-500 mile xc trips when I had so few hours as you, especially with
the distractions and demands of family and children in the cockpit.
Maybe you already have a plan for getting more experience before taking
this valuable cargo with you. Or maybe you live in a part of the
country where the weather and terrain are exceptionally benign. Or
maybe you're just a lot better than I was. If I may suggest, go to the
NTSB website and read as many relevant accident reports as you can to
broaden your perspective.

This may be a bit conservative, but I might suggest having N hours in
the logbook before venturing N miles from home with passengers. That
is, log 300 hours before taking your family 300 nmi away. One could
argue for a 2:3 ratio (200 hours for 300 nmi), but I think you get my
intent. Your terrain, weather, schedule, airspace, currency and skills
should influence this, but these are hard to quantify, so a simple rule
has some benefits.

Good luck!

-John


CareBear wrote:
> All:
>
> I am still pondering whether to buy an airplane or continue renting.
> Renting presents a few problems: availability being the main one. I
> mentioned in a previous post that there was an opportunity to buy a 1980
> Beech Sundowner but since then the owner decided not to sell (thanks B A R R
> Y for the write-up). Here are my thoughts on what I "think" I want to
> purchase should it be decided to go that route.
>
> I would prefer a plane that had from 180 to 200hp (not ready for complex or
> retract yet). High wing or low wing doesn't really matter (I trained in a
> Cessna 152). I will be getting checked out in the Cessna 172 real soon. I
> plan on using the plane to get IFR certified and keep it 2-4 years.
>
> Mission....I plan on making several local (less than 50nm) and at least 5 xc
> flights (from 100 to 500nm) per year. I will have the wife and a couple of
> grandchildren (small in size). Definitely need at least 4 seats. The more
> roomier the better.
>
> I don't know what brand or model is the safest, best to buy, easiest to
> handle, less troublesome, etc. One guy told me to get a Cessna 172 only for
> the 1976 to 1979 models. He didn't offer an explanation as to why only
> these models. Another guy said get a Piper Warrior.
>
> Frankly, I don't know what to get. As a new pilot (80-100hrs) I am not all
> familiar with the world of airplanes, so therefore I solicit your advice and
> opinions.
>
> Almost forgot...would be willing to spend up to $70,000 on the right plane.
>
> Thanks,
>

[CareBear]

Thanks for all the replies. It proved to be interesting reading. Still
haven't decided on continuing to rent or buy. But if I choose to buy, I
"believe" it will be either a Cessna 172 or a Piper Cherokee 180. But the
jury is still out on others. Decisions, decisions, decisions :)


--
CareBear

[Cary]

On Jun 23, 12:29 pm, "CareBear" > wrote:
> Thanks for all the replies. It proved to be interesting reading. Still
> haven't decided on continuing to rent or buy. But if I choose to buy, I
> "believe" it will be either a Cessna 172 or a Piper Cherokee 180. But the
> jury is still out on others. Decisions, decisions, decisions :)
>
> --
> CareBear

I think it may be worth looking at another option. If there is a
"flying club" in your area, take a look at what they have to offer. I
am not talking about the flying clubs associated with an FBO. I am
talking about one where you become a part owner in the airplane(s),
but the costs are spread across about 15 people per plane. For
example, I belonged to Flywell Flying Club at KANE for many years
where we owned 3 planes, a C172, C182RG, and a PA-181. This will allow
you to gain experience in another type of plane(s) at much less than
the cost of renting. After more experience in different planes, you
may be able to better determine if you want to buy outright and what
plane to buy (with its high expense) or continue with a flying club.

Cary
CP-ASMEL/IA
N336TS (DA42)

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:35:15 -0700, Cary > wrote:

>On Jun 23, 12:29 pm, "CareBear" > wrote:
>> Thanks for all the replies. It proved to be interesting reading. Still
>> haven't decided on continuing to rent or buy. But if I choose to buy, I
>> "believe" it will be either a Cessna 172 or a Piper Cherokee 180. But the
>> jury is still out on others. Decisions, decisions, decisions :)
>>
>> --
>> CareBear

My "first time" purchase was a Debonair/F33 Bonanza although I had
been partners in a Cherokee 180 for some years prior to that.
>
>I think it may be worth looking at another option. If there is a
>"flying club" in your area, take a look at what they have to offer. I
>am not talking about the flying clubs associated with an FBO. I am
>talking about one where you become a part owner in the airplane(s),
>but the costs are spread across about 15 people per plane. For

We have several flying clubs on our field and they range in size from
3 to 15 members. As a personal opinion I see 15 members as far too
many for one aircraft, but about right for two.

>example, I belonged to Flywell Flying Club at KANE for many years
>where we owned 3 planes, a C172, C182RG, and a PA-181. This will allow
>you to gain experience in another type of plane(s) at much less than
>the cost of renting. After more experience in different planes, you

We found the cost per person with 3 members in the 180 to be less than
one third the cost of renting when we were all flying over 100 hours a
year, but when we dropped to about 75 we needed 5 members to keep the
price per hour about the same. Taking on the two new members did
create a jump in the insurance rates but not bad.

>may be able to better determine if you want to buy outright and what
>plane to buy (with its high expense) or continue with a flying club.

I found I could fly the Debonair, or older F-33 130 hours per year
cheaper than renting a 172 including ALL costs, not just the
variables. That included a progressive maintenance program, insurance,
hangar rent, fuel, oil, and annuals, but did not take into account
what I'd get back after selling the Deb. I had no paymens with
interest. When compairing to renting you have to use all costs, not
just the variable for a realistic comparrison.



>
>Cary
>CP-ASMEL/IA
>N336TS (DA42)

[Luke Skywalker]

On Jun 22, 2:35 pm, John > wrote:

>
> This may be a bit conservative, but I might suggest having N hours in
> the logbook before venturing N miles from home with passengers. That
> is, log 300 hours before taking your family 300 nmi away. One could
> argue for a 2:3 ratio (200 hours for 300 nmi), but I think you get my
> intent. Your terrain, weather, schedule, airspace, currency and skills
> should influence this, but these are hard to quantify, so a simple rule
> has some benefits.
>
> Good luck!
>
> -John


why?

Robert

[CareBear]

Well, after much consideration, talking with CFIs and pilots, as well as
this NG, I've decided to get a C-182. I appreciate all the posts. There
was some good advice and gave me things to think about. Now the search is
on.

--
CareBear