Armchair CD U.S. Sports Class Nats

[Mitch]

>From looking at the sports class nationals scores, And seeing that
their have been only THREE landouts in four days of a 42 glider
NATIONALS, I'm thinking CD McQuigg is not pushing his troops hard
enough at this huge contest. I have heard that he is an ultra-
conservative CD, which is fine for a regional. I am of the opinion,
however, that with a spot on the team at stake that there be a bit
more separation of the scores. What do you folks think?

Oh, by the way anyone willing to take that thankless job of CD has my
undying respect, so before you jackals flame the crud out of me,
realize I'm trying to get some interesting discussion going on here as
"The Beatles sent my father to Hell" and "My air conditioner ate my
brother" are just not what I'm looking for when I come to this group.

-EX

[BB]

> >From looking at the sports class nationals scores, And seeing that
> their have been only THREE landouts in four days of a 42 glider
> NATIONALS, I'm thinking CD McQuigg is not pushing his troops hard
> enough at this huge contest.


It sounds like you misunderstand how time-limited tasks (MAT, TAT) are
supposed to work. Yes, on assigned tasks, if everyone finishes it's a
sign the task is too short, and the CD guide used to call for landing
out anyone slower than 75% (I think) of the winner's speed. But the
idea of a time-limited task is that everyone can come home when the
thermals quit, with slower pilots simply racking up less distance.
Fraction of landouts is not a good sign of how ambitious the task is.

It is possible, and quite common, for CDs to under-call time-limited
tasks. 3 hours at a nationals is supposed to be a minimum, with 4
hours a "standard" task, and the CD is supposed to use as much of the
soaring day as possible. The rules committee has been putting some
emphasis on getting this word out to CDs. It is very frustrating to be
at a contest on the best day in years, with 7 hours of soarable
weather, have a CD call a 3 hour task, finish and then watch the cus
go by for a few hours as a 750k day evaporates.

With this in mind, I note that there have been two 3:00 calls and two
3:30 calls. The contest reports also say that it has been late to
trigger on a few days, with gates open in the 2 pm range, so that may
well be reasonable. The sign of undercall is if we hear reports that
people are landing while the thermals are still going strong, with
lots of soarable day left. I haven't heard anything like that yet.

The "armchair" question: what are we doing wasting time on RAS when we
should be flying what seems like the best midwestern contest in
years?!

John Cochrane BB

[[email protected]]

On Jun 16, 11:05 am, BB > wrote:
> > >From looking at the sports class nationals scores, And seeing that
> > their have been only THREE landouts in four days of a 42 glider
> > NATIONALS, I'm thinking CD McQuigg is not pushing his troops hard
> > enough at this huge contest.
>
> It sounds like you misunderstand how time-limited tasks (MAT, TAT) are
> supposed to work. Yes, on assigned tasks, if everyone finishes it's a
> sign the task is too short, and the CD guide used to call for landing
> out anyone slower than 75% (I think) of the winner's speed. But the
> idea of a time-limited task is that everyone can come home when the
> thermals quit, with slower pilots simply racking up less distance.
> Fraction of landouts is not a good sign of how ambitious the task is.
>
> It is possible, and quite common, for CDs to under-call time-limited
> tasks. 3 hours at a nationals is supposed to be a minimum, with 4
> hours a "standard" task, and the CD is supposed to use as much of the
> soaring day as possible. The rules committee has been putting some
> emphasis on getting this word out to CDs. It is very frustrating to be
> at a contest on the best day in years, with 7 hours of soarable
> weather, have a CD call a 3 hour task, finish and then watch the cus
> go by for a few hours as a 750k day evaporates.
>
> With this in mind, I note that there have been two 3:00 calls and two
> 3:30 calls. The contest reports also say that it has been late to
> trigger on a few days, with gates open in the 2 pm range, so that may
> well be reasonable. The sign of undercall is if we hear reports that
> people are landing while the thermals are still going strong, with
> lots of soarable day left. I haven't heard anything like that yet.
>
> The "armchair" question: what are we doing wasting time on RAS when we
> should be flying what seems like the best midwestern contest in
> years?!
>
> John Cochrane BB

Maybe reading the rules will help also along with the guide
lines ...............

A10.3.1.2 Task-calling considerations for the CD
General
- Select good (i.e. knowledgeable, fair and decisive) task advisors,
and use them.
- Using the best available weather information and the help of the
task advisors, estimate:
- - The times at which soarable conditions will start and end
- - The speed that the winner will achieve
- Be ready to modify these estimates as the day develops.
- Using these estimates and the guidelines on task length of Rule
10.3.1, select three tasks appropriate to the predicted conditions. At
the pilots' meeting, name the longest of these as the primary task.
- The mix of tasks should be balanced across all task types.
- Be ready to launch 30 minutes before the earliest possible start of
the day.
- Launch the sniffer as early as is practical. Launch the fleet as
soon as the sniffer indicates that conditions are acceptable (see the
comments for Rule 10.6.2.6, below).
- Understand the importance of an efficient launch. The ideal would be
to get everyone into the air in 5 minutes. That isn't possible, but
anything that makes the launch go more smoothly is welcome. The saving
of even a few seconds per launch adds up.
- Make a point of consulting the task advisors between 15 and 10
minutes before the task opens, to verify that those in the air feel
the contemplated task will be safe and fair.
- On difficult days, keep trying until it is really too late to get a
fair task in. Listen principally to the weatherman, rather than pilots
who may be complaining that they'd prefer to pack up their gliders and
go swimming.
- Try to use the full day, not merely the best part of it. Inevitable,
60-90 minutes or more are lost to the launch and pre-start. Try to
call tasks that make good use of the rest.
- Use distant turnpoints in good weather - save the nearby ones for
the tough days. Visiting a variety of turnpoints tends to add interest
to a contest.
- With Minimum-time tasks (TAT and MAT), inexperienced pilots
especially should be made aware of the significance of the Standard
Minimum Task Distance. A pilot who flies the minimum possible distance
may not have enough distance to get credit for a finish. This is
doubly important in Sport class, where the minimum distance to get
credit for a finish depends on a glider's handicap.

Also: 10.3 Tasks
10.3.1 General
10.3.1.1 † Task Parameters
· † Standard Minimum Task Distance: 50 miles
· † Standard Minimum Task Time: 3.0 hours
· Standard Task Time: 4.0 hours
· Minimum length of first leg: 5 miles
· Minimum length of subsequent task legs: 2 miles
· Maximum number of task legs: 11
10.3.1.2 Task Selection - Tasks should be selected so
as to provide variety and challenge. The CD should consult all
available meteorological resources and seek the advice of Task
Advisory Committee (Rule 3.1.5). CDs are expected to use a mix of task
types, lengths and directions, as conditions dictate. Specific task-
setting guidelines are found in the Guide to the Rules; CDs should be
familiar with these guidelines.
10.3.1.3 Normal Task - Tasks should make as full use of
the available soaring weather as is practical. When feasible, tasks
should be set so that the expected minimum completion time is not less
than the Standard Task Time. Yet a task should be short enough that a
pilot who starts as soon as the task opens and who achieves 75% of the
expected winning speed is able to finish. A time-limited task should
normally allow a maximum possible distance at least 130% of that
achievable in the designated minimum time at the expected winning
speed.
10.3.1.4 † Minimum Task - The minimum handicapped
distance of a task for which a finish will be awarded is the Standard
Minimum Task Distance.
10.3.1.5 Maximum Task - Tasks should be set such that
the total time on course of the highest-scoring flights on any two
consecutive days is less than 10 hours. But, consistent with this and
as conditions allow, it is appropriate for the CD to set occasional
tasks that are substantially longer than the Standard Task Time.

Mitch, nowhere in our rules, does it say the CD is to be judged by
landouts on task calls. Today, at Nationals, as well as Regionals, we
have the entire spectrum of contest pilots, who are just trying to
have a good and safe contest. Landouts do not mean its been a good
task call. As pilots who fly contests get more experience, fewer
landouts will happen. Those at the top of the score sheet, will have a
smaller point spread, making them accountable for even the smallest of
mistakes.Thus making it more exciting as the contest comes to its end
and the point spread is close. Even our points for landouts have been
revised upwards. Thats good news for everyone.
Maybe you need to go to more contests and doing as BB said, get out
and do some glider flying. I am taking the day off, as the last 4
days I have soared 27 hours in Parowan and its been booming.........#
711.

[Mitch]

I'd love to do more glider flying, Tom, but this darn pesky "Defending
the country" thing just keeps getting in the way. 8 more years until
I'm retired and can join you merry chaps on a regular basis.

Maybe when the rules are written here in the states to make us
competitive again on the world scene where, incidentally there ARE
more landouts, the U.S. teams can at least move to the top half of the
score sheet? I know for a fact it is not our pilots skill levels.
They are right up there with the best Europe has to offer. I'm
attributing it to the fact that we make 3 hour tasks on a 7 hour
soaring day and assume that we "really" racing.

-EX

"Stir'rin the pot"

[[email protected]]

Having flown all six of the contest days here, I can personally assure
you that CD Andy McQuigg has done an outstanding job of calling tasks
that make the best use of the weather. The days have definitely not
been easy, with a number of pilots (including this one) having low
saves on final glides as the lift quit. The first three days we were
unable to start the launch before 1pm. If memory serves, three days
the task was changed in the air. It hasn't been easy. Day five and
six in particular really shook up the score sheet.

So rather than whining, why don't you go fly your glider... oh wait,
you don't even care about flying it... word is spreading about how
you make "use" of it - and I'm not the only one thats picked up.

2c


On Jun 16, 6:12 pm, Mitch > wrote:
> I'd love to do more glider flying, Tom, but this darn pesky "Defending
> the country" thing just keeps getting in the way. 8 more years until
> I'm retired and can join you merry chaps on a regular basis.
>
> Maybe when the rules are written here in the states to make us
> competitive again on the world scene where, incidentally there ARE
> more landouts, the U.S. teams can at least move to the top half of the
> score sheet? I know for a fact it is not our pilots skill levels.
> They are right up there with the best Europe has to offer. I'm
> attributing it to the fact that we make 3 hour tasks on a 7 hour
> soaring day and assume that we "really" racing.
>
> -EX
>
> "Stir'rin the pot"

[[email protected]]

On Jun 19, 10:37 am, "
> wrote:
> Having flown all six of the contest days here, I can personally assure
> you that CD Andy McQuigg has done an outstanding job of calling tasks
> that make the best use of the weather. The days have definitely not
> been easy, with a number of pilots (including this one) having low
> saves on final glides as the lift quit. The first three days we were
> unable to start the launch before 1pm. If memory serves, three days
> the task was changed in the air. It hasn't been easy. Day five and
> six in particular really shook up the score sheet.
>
> So rather than whining, why don't you go fly your glider... oh wait,
> you don't even care about flying it... word is spreading about how
> you make "use" of it - and I'm not the only one thats picked up.
>
> 2c
>
> On Jun 16, 6:12 pm, Mitch > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'd love to do more glider flying, Tom, but this darn pesky "Defending
> > the country" thing just keeps getting in the way. 8 more years until
> > I'm retired and can join you merry chaps on a regular basis.
>
> > Maybe when the rules are written here in the states to make us
> > competitive again on the world scene where, incidentally there ARE
> > more landouts, the U.S. teams can at least move to the top half of the
> > score sheet? I know for a fact it is not our pilots skill levels.
> > They are right up there with the best Europe has to offer. I'm
> > attributing it to the fact that we make 3 hour tasks on a 7 hour
> > soaring day and assume that we "really" racing.
>
> > -EX
>
> > "Stir'rin the pot"- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

guys guys guys...the problem isnt the tasks, or the CD, or the
weather. its the gliders and the pilots. they're just too damn good!!

-Tony (dreaming of 40:1+ and water ballast)

[KO[_2_]]

On Jun 16, 10:10 am, Mitch > wrote:
> >From looking at the sports class nationals scores, And seeing that
>
> their have been only THREE landouts in four days of a 42 glider
> NATIONALS, I'm thinking CD McQuigg is not pushing his troops hard
> enough at this huge contest. I have heard that he is an ultra-
> conservative CD, which is fine for a regional. I am of the opinion,
> however, that with a spot on the team at stake that there be a bit
> more separation of the scores. What do you folks think?
>
> Oh, by the way anyone willing to take that thankless job of CD has my
> undying respect, so before you jackals flame the crud out of me,
> realize I'm trying to get some interesting discussion going on here as
> "The Beatles sent my father to Hell" and "My air conditioner ate my
> brother" are just not what I'm looking for when I come to this group.
>
> -EX

You said it right Mitch: taking the CD job is a thankless job! ...

Irrespective of whether you do it right or not... someone will always
complain or whine!

Andy: You are doing a great job!!!!

KO

[Orion Kingman]

> So rather than whining, why don't you go fly your glider... oh wait,
> you don't even care about flying it... word is spreading about how
> you make "use" of it - and I'm not the only one thats picked up.
>
> 2c

I really hope that there is supposed to be a missing sarcasm tag
following that closing statement...
Mitch has done way more than most in this community to help young
pilots out that are trying to earn badges, fly contest, and compete in
nationals. He always has the option of letting his Discus sit in his
trailer while he is completing Navigator school for the air force, or
while attending Officer Training School. Mitch my not be a flight
instructor, like yourself Kevin, but he does far more than his share
to help this community and sport, and a snide remark like that is
warranted in private conversation, let alone in a public news group.

Orion Kingman
DV8

[[email protected]]

On Jun 16, 10:10 am, Mitch > wrote:
> >From looking at the sports class nationals scores, And seeing that
>
> their have been only THREE landouts in four days of a 42 glider
> NATIONALS, I'm thinking CD McQuigg is not pushing his troops hard
> enough at this huge contest. I have heard that he is an ultra-
> conservative CD, which is fine for a regional. I am of the opinion,
> however, that with a spot on the team at stake that there be a bit
> more separation of the scores. What do you folks think?
>
> Oh, by the way anyone willing to take that thankless job of CD has my
> undying respect, so before you jackals flame the crud out of me,
> realize I'm trying to get some interesting discussion going on here as
> "The Beatles sent my father to Hell" and "My air conditioner ate my
> brother" are just not what I'm looking for when I come to this group.
>
> -EX

It is quite obviuos that you have little or no contest experience as a
glider pilot. It is very bold of you to announce that Andy McQuigg is
an easy or conservative CD! This is my second nationals, and having
much more competition experience than you I reserve the right to call
you out on your accusations against the CD. If you think that you
know so much about national soaring competitions then I invite you to
soar with us and see how you do. I doubt that you will finish in the
top half of the score sheet. If you could even find the start
cylinder! When your Discus was at Perry I noticed that the gelcoat
was flaking off, I am not sure that it is airworthy and neither are
you! Oh and imagine that.... someone else was flying the Discus also,
not you!

972
p.s
I know of a glider refinishing businness that would do you and your
glider wonders.

[Sylvia Szafarczyk]

I can't speak about the sports class nats, the challenges
in being a CD, or other issues mentioned in this thread,
but I will wholeheartedly defend Mitch against those
who criticize his willingness to lend EX to a handful
of young pilots, regardless of gender.

Since 2004, Mitch's glider, and his glider alone, has
allowed me to collect a nice array of badges/records/awards,
develop my XC skills, attend the previously mentioned
Perry camp, choose to obtain my CFIG, and befriend
numerous individuals across the country along the way.
I've been flying for nine years, and only in the last
month have I finally acquired my own 'baby.' If not
for Mitch, I would have missed out on countless experiences
and opportunities over the last few years that are
often only available to those with their own sailplane.

Unlike many pilots, who choose to let their gliders
sit at the gliderport while they are busy or unable
to fly, Mitch allowed me to borrow EX without a second's
thought while he was busy in Nav School. His parting
words were, 'Firstly, have fun. Next, come home safe.
Lastly, remember the glider can always be fixed. But
firstly, have fun.' Like Mitch, I will similarly make
my glider available to youth at my club when I am caught
up in med school. All of us should be aware of his
continued support of the soaring community and the
impact he's made singlehandedly on so many young pilots.


Kevin, your comment was absolutely unnecessary. It
is offensive not only to Mitch, but also to myself
and others who have 'made use' of the glider. This
is simply not the place to make such a highly personal,
public attack.

Sylvia
1UV/N810VE

[Sylvia Szafarczyk]

I can't speak about the sports class nats, the challenges
in being a CD, or other issues mentioned in this thread,
but I will wholeheartedly defend Mitch against those
who criticize his willingness to lend EX to a handful
of young pilots, regardless of gender.

Since 2004, Mitch's glider, and his glider alone, has
allowed me to collect a nice array of badges/records/awards,
develop my XC skills, attend the previously mentioned
Perry camp, choose to obtain my CFIG, and befriend
numerous individuals across the country along the way.
I've been flying for nine years, and only in the last
month have I finally acquired my own 'baby.' If not
for Mitch, I would have missed out on countless experiences
and opportunities over the last few years that are
often only available to those with their own sailplane.

Unlike many pilots, who choose to let their gliders
sit at the gliderport while they are busy or unable
to fly, Mitch allowed me to borrow EX without a second's
thought while he was busy in Nav School. His parting
words were, 'Firstly, have fun. Next, come home safe.
Lastly, remember the glider can always be fixed. But
firstly, have fun.' Like Mitch, I will similarly make
my glider available to youth at my club when I am caught
up in med school. All of us should be aware of his
continued support of the soaring community and the
impact he's made singlehandedly on so many young pilots.


Kevin, your comment was absolutely unnecessary. It
is offensive not only to Mitch, but also to myself
and others who have 'made use' of the glider. This
is simply not the place to make such a highly personal,
public attack.

Sylvia
1UV/N810VE

[Hugh Grandstaff]

I can understand everyone bashing Mitch for his critique
of the CD at the nationals. He invited it, and was
trying to spark some thoughts on why US pilots are
not consistently competitive on the international stage.
The attacks from Mr. Kevin Christner and Mr. Corey
Sullivan were something else entirely. I have only
known Mitch Hudson for a year, but I have found him
committed to giving youth opportunities that they would
not otherwise have in soaring. Mitch Hudson once threw
me the keys to his C-120 so that I could remain current
in tail wheel aircraft. He asked nothing in return.
Mitch has allowed my girlfriend to use his discus on
several occasions. He asked nothing in return.

Kevin: As a flight instructor, you should be above
personal attacks like this. That title implies that
you are a professional. Act like one. What kind of
example are you setting for your students?

Corey: Unless you are a flight instructor or A&P, you
should refrain from passing judgment on Mitch or his
glider. As someone whose signature is in his logbook,
I have no hesitation in saying that he is a very competent
pilot. Considering the fact that you are a Kolstad
Scholarship winner and a youth advisor to the SSA Youth
Committee, I am disappointed that you would publicly
mock a fellow pilot’s potential in contests or belittle
his efforts to promote the sport.

Kevin and Corey, you both owe Mitch Hudson an apology.
I only hope that since you were both “men” enough to
attack him in public you will have the maturity to
apologize in public as well.

Regards,

Hugh Grandstaff

(Tail number varies depending on what second hand tow
plane or glider I am borrowing)

[Hugh Grandstaff[_2_]]

I can understand everyone bashing Mitch for his critique
of the CD at the nationals. He invited it, and was
trying to spark some thoughts on why US pilots are
not consistently competitive on the international stage.
The attacks from Mr. Kevin Christner and Mr. Corey
Sullivan were something else entirely. I have only
known Mitch Hudson for a year, but I have found him
committed to giving youth opportunities that they would
not otherwise have in soaring. Mitch once threw me
the keys to his C-120 so that I could remain current
in tail wheel aircraft. He asked nothing in return.
Mitch has allowed my girlfriend to use his discus on
several occasions. He asked nothing in return.

Kevin: As a flight instructor, you should be above
personal attacks like this. That title implies that
you are a professional. Act like one. What kind of
example are you setting for your students?

Corey: Unless you are a flight instructor or A&P, you
should refrain from passing judgment on Mitch or his
glider. As someone whose signature is in his logbook,
I have no hesitation in saying that he is a very competent
pilot. Considering the fact that you are a Kolstad
Scholarship winner and a youth advisor to the SSA Youth
Committee, I am disappointed that you would publicly
mock a fellow pilot’s potential in contests or belittle
his efforts to promote the sport.

Kevin and Corey, you both owe Mitch Hudson an apology.
I only hope that since you were both “men” enough to
attack him in public you will have the maturity to
apologize in public as well.

Regards,

Hugh Grandstaff
(Tail number varies depending on what second hand tow
plane or glider I am borrowing)

[MickiMinner]

Mitch Hudson has been a wonderful asset to the sport of soaring, and
not just for the youth of the country. He has a deep and powerful
understanding of the history, the racing and growth of the sport. I
can't believe that a youth schloarship winner would even deign to
comment on his betters (yes, his betters) in the sport. Mitch gave up
a lot to join the Air Force, and go to flight training school. One
of them was the ability to fly in national contests, and having the
time to compete nationally. Mitch has a better understanding of what
it takes to compete nationally and regionally than most any other
person of his age. When I was introduced to this sport via my
boyfriend, Mitch was one of the few pilots who actually EXPLAINED
about history, tradition, racing and the fun of soaring.

As I read his post, he was asking a question...a source of
discussion. Intelligent, urbane and sophisticated people are always
willing to discuss different points of view without sarcastic mean-
spirited attacks on the questioner.
Oh well, food for thought
Micki Minner

[[email protected]]

On Jun 20, 10:12 am, MickiMinner > wrote:
> Mitch Hudson has been a wonderful asset to the sport of soaring, and
> not just for the youth of the country. He has a deep and powerful
> understanding of the history, the racing and growth of the sport. I
> can't believe that a youth schloarship winner would even deign to
> comment on his betters (yes, his betters) in the sport. Mitch gave up
> a lot to join the Air Force, and go to flight training school. One
> of them was the ability to fly in national contests, and having the
> time to compete nationally. Mitch has a better understanding of what
> it takes to compete nationally and regionally than most any other
> person of his age. When I was introduced to this sport via my
> boyfriend, Mitch was one of the few pilots who actually EXPLAINED
> about history, tradition, racing and the fun of soaring.
>
> As I read his post, he was asking a question...a source of
> discussion. Intelligent, urbane and sophisticated people are always
> willing to discuss different points of view without sarcastic mean-
> spirited attacks on the questioner.
> Oh well, food for thought
> Micki Minner

I understand where you are coming from. But many pilots are quite
upset at this competition because of the accusations Mitch has been
making against Andy McQuigg. If he were here at the comtest and was
flying the competition then he has the right to critique the CD. But
he is not here and i dont think he is even close. I also notice that
you picked out kevin and I for bashing Mitch. But many more have done
it above. I see almost no one who agrees with Mitch. I am just
defending Andy who is doing an extremely outstanding job as the CD if
this contest.

-972

[[email protected]]

My idea of professionalism, Hugh, is protecting juniors from someone
who, IMHO, does not have their best interests in mind. My experience
with as a junior, and the experience of others, with this individual,
has been extremely negative.

2c

On Jun 20, 12:15 am, Hugh Grandstaff >
wrote:
> I can understand everyone bashing Mitch for his critique
> of the CD at the nationals. He invited it, and was
> trying to spark some thoughts on why US pilots are
> not consistently competitive on the international stage.
> The attacks from Mr. Kevin Christner and Mr. Corey
> Sullivan were something else entirely. I have only
> known Mitch Hudson for a year, but I have found him
> committed to giving youth opportunities that they would
> not otherwise have in soaring. Mitch Hudson once threw
> me the keys to his C-120 so that I could remain current
> in tail wheel aircraft. He asked nothing in return.
> Mitch has allowed my girlfriend to use his discus on
> several occasions. He asked nothing in return.
>
> Kevin: As a flight instructor, you should be above
> personal attacks like this. That title implies that
> you are a professional. Act like one. What kind of
> example are you setting for your students?
>
> Corey: Unless you are a flight instructor or A&P, you
> should refrain from passing judgment on Mitch or his
> glider. As someone whose signature is in his logbook,
> I have no hesitation in saying that he is a very competent
> pilot. Considering the fact that you are a Kolstad
> Scholarship winner and a youth advisor to the SSA Youth
> Committee, I am disappointed that you would publicly
> mock a fellow pilot's potential in contests or belittle
> his efforts to promote the sport.
>
> Kevin and Corey, you both owe Mitch Hudson an apology.
> I only hope that since you were both "men" enough to
> attack him in public you will have the maturity to
> apologize in public as well.
>
> Regards,
>
> Hugh Grandstaff
>
> (Tail number varies depending on what second hand tow
> plane or glider I am borrowing)

[[email protected]]

No Cory, you are only defending your position as haveing been on of
two folks who have chosen to attack Mitch for offering up food for
thought.
If there are all these people who, like you are bashing Mitch Hudson,
where are their posts?
More often than not Mitch's glider resides in Moriarty where he has
made it available to yet another fledgling cross country pilot.
Mitch's Discus is clearly in need of a refininsh and that is the
reason he bought it a few years ago for a very reasonable price. At
the time, Mitch was an E-5 in the Air Force, (he is now a 2nd Lt.),
and was on a very limited source of income. He was convinded to buy
the Discus so that he could improve his cross country skills.
Mitch did that, but more inportantly, he has chosen to share the
"wealth" by letting others who could not afford access to high
performance equipment fly his glider. I would venture to guess, the
those who have flown his Discus have spend more time it it than Mitch
has.
Currently he is in Nav training in SAT, but has chosen to make his
ship available to lower time junior pilots to fly.
What we need is a few more Mitch Hudsons in soaring who are willing to
extend them selves to promote the sport in the manner in which he has
done.

Best Regards,

Billy Hill

[Mike[_8_]]

Good point Mitch.

Maybe it is a matter of endurance, perhaps due to aging.

Seems as though pilots in National Contests should be expected as a
rule to meet at least "Silver Badge" requirements in daily
competition. This includes flights in access of five hours and the
resulting task distances in todays very high performance sailplanes.

The younger pilots should be tested and honed for success with longer
and tougher tasks in National competition, even though it will require
pilots showing up with crews, due to more landouts.

Mike

[Orion Kingman]

On Jun 20, 8:31 am, "
> wrote:
> My idea of professionalism, Hugh, is protecting juniors from someone
> who, IMHO, does not have their best interests in mind. My experience
> with as a junior, and the experience of others, with this individual,
> has been extremely negative.
>
> 2c


Kevin,
If you truly do view yourself as a professional I would advise to
carefully consider the statements that you are making in a public
forum. As had been said before in this thread, Mitch (which he stated
himself) was trying to start some intelligent conversation regarding
the preparedness of our pilots to compete at the WGC level.

"Having flown all six of the contest days here, I can personally
assure
you that CD Andy McQuigg has done an outstanding job of calling tasks
that make the best use of the weather. The days have definitely not
been easy, with a number of pilots (including this one) having low
saves on final glides as the lift quit. The first three days we were
unable to start the launch before 1pm. If memory serves, three days
the task was changed in the air. It hasn't been easy. Day five and
six in particular really shook up the score sheet. "

The first paragraph that you wrote did provide some insight to the
conversation regarding an individuals (your's) experience at the
Sports Class Nationals.

"So rather than whining, why don't you go fly your glider... oh wait,
you don't even care about flying it... word is spreading about how
you make "use" of it - and I'm not the only one thats picked up. "

The second paragraph that you wrote is a slanderous remark, boarding
on libel, fueled by your own personal agenda and vendetta. Your
insinuations, which I shall not repeat here, are based on rumour,
hearsay, and have absolutely no solid footing in truth.

As a flight instructor, and as a professional, you need to hold
yourself to a higher standard. You need to change your idea of
professionalism, at the very least, to keeping what poorly founded
opinions you have confined to private conversation (if even that), as
opposed to spreading venomous remark on an internationally read
newsgroup.

Further more, Mitch's second post in this thread tried to direct the
conversation towards the rules and scoring system used here in the
USA. No where in this conversation has he made any comment that the
CD was not running the contest properly (Mitch fulled admitted in his
first post that being a CD is a thankless task, and that he was not
trying to draw a slew of flame for his remarks). He was trying to
start a conversation to field opinions regarding our selection
process, and the impact that our rules have on such.

Regards,
Orion Kingman
DV8

[Orion Kingman]

On Jun 20, 9:52 am, Mike > wrote:
> Good point Mitch.
>
> Maybe it is a matter of endurance, perhaps due to aging.
>
> Seems as though pilots in National Contests should be expected as a
> rule to meet at least "Silver Badge" requirements in daily
> competition. This includes flights in access of five hours and the
> resulting task distances in todays very high performance sailplanes.
>
> The younger pilots should be tested and honed for success with longer
> and tougher tasks in National competition, even though it will require
> pilots showing up with crews, due to more landouts.
>
> Mike

Agreed.

Tom (711) and John (BB)- I understand trying to accommodate all
participants, but I'm not sure if this hold water at a national where
team selection is in the balance. The rules committee has made is
fairly clear that a sports class event should be tasked for a Discus
to Libelle 201 range ship (If I recall correctly), thus eliminating
the need for the CD to task for the KA-6 that shows up to the same
event as a Nimbus 3. If in the best opinion of the CD, and his task
advisers, a Libelle 201 could fly 50 mph in a given 5 hour soaring
window then task the fleet with a 250 mile call, but don't shorten the
task/time at a national to make sure that everyone can make it home
for that nights festivities. A national should be an event where the
cream of the crop is forced to rise to the top of the score sheet, to
insure that we have the best possible representation at a WGC. BTW
711, I've been flying in and out of SLC lately... I'm bummed that I'm
not in the N3 down at Parowan... the cu fields have been gorgeous from
the cockpit of the CRJ.

DV8

[Chilhowee]

I am a relatively new competition pilot with only one Regional (Perry
2006) and one National (1-26 Championships) level contest behind me.
The only sailplane I own so far is a Blanik L-13 in which I spend
every weekend and most weeks training the pilots who are the future of
our sport. I run a gliderport because I love this sport, but were it
not for the goodness of people like Mitch Hudson and Kevin Anderson
who have given me the use of their sailplanes I would not be able to
do any cross country soaring or racing for myself, thus eventually
losing the enthusiasm and love of the sport which keeps me going while
working in the trenches running a commercial operation and all that it
entails.

Aside from the two contests which I've actually flown I have made a
point to study every contest that I can in order to learn how best to
run the contests which I manage. I've towed, attended and studied many
contest and recently finished up managing the 2007 World Class
Nationals and 1-26 Championships. So, with that said then I will
respond to Mitch's question (before the rock-throwing began) and state
my observations from the first two contest days.

1) Day 1 - I ferried the towplane through strong lift the last hour
before reaching Caeser Creek. - The first sniffer was launched half an
hour after I landed, and there was a 3 hour task called.
2) Day 2 - Cu's showed up in the sky at 11:30. I launched the first
sniffer an hour later, and by the time I'd landed he was reporting 7
knot lift and an altitude of 7000'. There was a 3.5 hour task called.

According to the rules copied below, it sounds to me that the CD is
expected to make full use of the available soaring weather and 3 hours
should really be considered a minimum. I'm thinking the first two days
at least were under-called. (Wasn't on site for Days 3-6, so I don't
know about that.)

This is CD McQuigg's first Nationals as a CD, so I guess we all need
to learn the job. I look forward to seeing him push these guys hard
enough to separate the men from the boys.

Sarah

10.3.1.1 † Task Parameters
· † Standard Minimum Task Distance: 50 miles
· † Standard Minimum Task Time: 3.0 hours
· Standard Task Time: 4.0 hours

10.3.1.3 Normal Task - Tasks should make as full use of
the available soaring weather as is practical. When feasible, tasks
should be set so that the expected minimum completion time is not
less
than the Standard Task Time. Yet a task should be short enough that a
pilot who starts as soon as the task opens and who achieves 75% of
the
expected winning speed is able to finish. A time-limited task should
normally allow a maximum possible distance at least 130% of that
achievable in the designated minimum time at the expected winning
speed.

10.3.1.5 Maximum Task - Tasks should be set such that
the total time on course of the highest-scoring flights on any two
consecutive days is less than 10 hours. But, consistent with this and
as conditions allow, it is appropriate for the CD to set occasional
tasks that are substantially longer than the Standard Task Time.

[[email protected]]

On Jun 16, 10:10 am, Mitch > wrote:
> >From looking at the sports class nationals scores, And seeing that
>
> their have been only THREE landouts in four days of a 42 glider
> NATIONALS, I'm thinking CD McQuigg is not pushing his troops hard
> enough at this huge contest. I have heard that he is an ultra-
> conservative CD, which is fine for a regional. I am of the opinion,
> however, that with a spot on the team at stake that there be a bit
> more separation of the scores. What do you folks think?
>
> Oh, by the way anyone willing to take that thankless job of CD has my
> undying respect, so before you jackals flame the crud out of me,
> realize I'm trying to get some interesting discussion going on here as
> "The Beatles sent my father to Hell" and "My air conditioner ate my
> brother" are just not what I'm looking for when I come to this group.
>
> -EX

It's a few days after this first post, and resulting intemperate
remarks.
I would observe the following:
After 7 days, my average distance per day is very close to 200 miles.
Time in the air about 4 1/ 2 -5 hr per day.
It is true that launching is being done only after sniffer reports
good lift. On a couple days the sniffer required relights so it has
not always
been an hour os so late as implied by some.
As to point speads MItch is looking for, after 5 days only about 100
points seperated the top 4 or 5 and these guys had yet to even fly
together.
Why? Good uniform weather and close pilot skills. If we flew 5 hr
tasks , the results would be little, if any different. Where the
spread would show would be in the middle of the score sheet and down.
Not where the champion or the team is selected.
I think maybe Mitch is sorta off base, but he has a right to voice his
opinion without abuse.
I hope we get to see him come race with us and maybe his view would be
refined a bit.
Cheers UH

[snoop]

On Jun 19, 3:11 pm, wrote:
> On Jun 16, 10:10 > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > >From looking at the sports class nationals scores, And seeing that
>
> > their have been only THREE landouts in four days of a 42 glider
> > NATIONALS, I'm thinking CD McQuigg is not pushing his troops hard
> > enough at this huge contest. I have heard that he is an ultra-
> > conservative CD, which is fine for a regional. I am of the opinion,
> > however, that with a spot on the team at stake that there be a bit
> > more separation of the scores. What do you folks think?
>
> > Oh, by the way anyone willing to take that thankless job of CD has my
> > undying respect, so before you jackals flame the crud out of me,
> > realize I'm trying to get some interesting discussion going on here as
> > "The Beatles sent my father to Hell" and "My air conditioner ate my
> > brother" are just not what I'm looking for when I come to this group.
>
> > -EX
>
> It is quite obviuos that you have little or no contest experience as a
> glider pilot. It is very bold of you to announce that Andy McQuigg is
> an easy or conservative CD! This is my second nationals, and having
> much more competition experience than you I reserve the right to call
> you out on your accusations against the CD. If you think that you
> know so much about national soaring competitions then I invite you to
> soar with us and see how you do. I doubt that you will finish in the
> top half of the score sheet. If you could even find the start
> cylinder! When your Discus was at Perry I noticed that the gelcoat
> was flaking off, I am not sure that it is airworthy and neither are
> you! Oh and imagine that.... someone else was flying the Discus also,
> not you!
>
> 972
> p.s
> I know of a glider refinishing businness that would do you and your
> glider wonders.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Geesch, Mitch, I heard a rumor you were behaving rudely, so I've come
back into this den of weekend warriors, to see what was descending
upon you. Well, I came, I read, and all I can say is carry on Mitch,
and thanks to you and your mom for all the years of dedication and
contribution to soaring.
And having said that, like crap down the laundry chute, I'm gone! Tah,
Tah.

[Kathy]

I think Mitch has asked a very interesting question. Now that the
Sports Class Nats are over, there were 49 landouts, give or take(by my
unscientific count -- correct me if I'm grossly wrong here), just a
few more than the 4 than Mitch was initially discussing. At the 2006
Standards in Uvalde (CD Charlie Spratt) there was only 1 landout.
>From a surface view, it seems that the consistency of the weather is a
bigger factor in determining the number of landouts than the CD. The
weather in Uvalde was remarkably consistent, whereas it seems that it
got very difficult towards the end of the Sports contests.

As I'm headed to Italy shortly to fly in the junior championships, I
had hoped that a few people who have flown contests both domestically
and internationally would weigh in on this issue. I've been wondering
what to expect, and if my experience in US contests has prepared me
for European contests.

While I'm interested to hear what people have to say, I can't leave
this post with out commenting on the unfortunate posts of Kevin and
Corey. As a fellow member of the junior community, I was disappointed
to read inappropriate and not well thought out posts from you both.
As potential members of the '09 junior team, I had expected more of
you. As many people have stated, Mitch is a valuable member of the
soaring community and has been a champion of juniors throughout the
years. I too have benefited from his generosity -- in fact a great
deal of my experiences/successes can be in one way or another
attributed directly to him, or from people I have met through him.
His question was merely intended to generate conversation on the
differences between US and international tasks, and if we are really
preparing our pilots for competition on the international front.
Belittling responses full of personal attacks and name calling are
merely childish. In the future, please think carefully before you
throw stones. Doing so does nothing for the soaring community,
especially the juniors, or for the opinions others have of you.

Kathy Fosha

[2007 Sports Class Nationals]

Mitch

I am sorry this reply to your inquiry / commentary regarding task length at
the 2007 Sports Class Nationals, just concluded at Caesar Creek, is being
sent so late. But I seldom read RAS, as I intensely dislike the invective,
such as you received, that seems to pollute much of the discussions on this
group.

And even if I were inclined to read RAS regularly, I have been pretty busy
running the contest over the last two weeks. So this response would not have
come out much sooner than this in any case.

But your reasoned comments do deserve a reply. Here come my two cents plus.

The CD and CM have many responsibilities, one of which is the soundness of
the competition, but the foremost of which is safety. So, first, you need
to understand Caesar Creek. Relatively speaking, we have a small flying
facility. Our field is not symmetric, the west end of the gliderport is
less than half as wide (280 ft) as the east end. (600 ft +). West end
operations are in general, similar to east end operations. There is a
take-off / towplane runway, which is the north side and is the full length
of the field. (just under 300 ft.) And there is a glider landing lane,
which is the south side of the field and is approximately half the length of
the main runway. (Of course, gliders may land anywhere they need to, but
our preferred mode of operations is glider/tow take offs on the main, glider
landings on the short, parallel glider runway. And there is no physical
separation north/south, left/right, we just try to operate as described.
When possible, we land towplanes "downwind", or head to head with the tow
out operation takeoffs. (Obviously, we do not take off into a landing
towplane.) When not possible, usually due to too high tailwind, we land
the towplanes in the same direction as takeoffs.

To land towplanes in the same direction as the takeoffs, with 42 gliders on
the grid, the towplanes had to approach as if they were landing in the
glider/relight lanes, and then shift over to the north. Otherwise, they
would be dragging ropes over the grid. While this is safe and not a problem
it would get more complicated if there were gliders approaching or actually
landing in the relight area. The solution is to not allow towplanes to
overfly the relight area unless it is clear. This can be done easily
enough, but doing so does slow the pace of the launch. And this is not
speculation, we know this from experience.

To deal with these issues, CD Andy McQuigg and I agreed that if feasible, we
would not start launching gliders from the west end of the field until the
sniffers actual performance verified that the gliders could stay up. This
was not an absolute, this was an operational objective - we would, if we
could, delay launching until we were confident that most of the competitors
could stay up. Is this in the spirit of the rules? That depends. It could
limit the length of the soaring day, but it does clearly comply with the
intent of rule 9.0. But this was not just the right course for safety, it
also meant that once we started, we would be able to run a fast pace launch
with fewer interruptions. Perhaps we were a bit conservative in this call,
but we did, in fact, have rapid launches and all the fleet got into the air
together.

We did have some late starting days. The cool air that gave us the fine
soaring took a little longer to warm up. And CCSC is near the western edge
of the Eastern time zone - sunwise, we are closer to Central time than
Eastern time. (So a 1230 EDT launch is really more like an 1130 sun time
launch. Of course, this implies you can fly later in the day, but that
didn't seem to work out.)

In an earlier response to your commentary, Sarah Kelly noted that she flew
through lift on the first day on her way to Caesar Creek, and arrived to
find we were not yet launching. Well, that is a true statement, but we were
in fact waiting for her to arrive to start the launch, as we wanted to go
with five towplanes instead of four. Also, it did not surprise me to read
that she was flying through lift, as she was coming from the southeast, and
the terrain to the southeast of CCSC is considerably more rolling than it is
at CCSC. We commonly see cu popping to the southeast before they pop
overhead. We can't get to them, but we can watch them. Very frustrating.

Other responses include comments on the aspects of TATs and MATs with large
turn areas that allow pilots to make in-flight decisions that maximize their
ability to get home, I won't expand on those comments. I do not think Andy
was trying to develop "get them home tasks", but I do think lots of
competitors opted to fly "get home" distances within those tasks. Given the
points differential between completing a task and not completing a task,
they really had no choice. And many of the competitors also had no assigned
crew, and I am sure that had to have some impact on their decision making.

In the end, over 8 competition days, the 42 competitors flew over 56,000
miles. That is an average task of 166 miles. And that is ALL thermal
soaring, no ridges or mountains.

So, I think CD McQuigg did a good job of using most of the soaring day,
balancing that objective with the other objectives the CD and CM are
supposed to meet..

Dick Holzwarth

Contest Manager - 2007 Sports Class Nationals.

"Mitch" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> >From looking at the sports class nationals scores, And seeing that
> their have been only THREE landouts in four days of a 42 glider
> NATIONALS, I'm thinking CD McQuigg is not pushing his troops hard
> enough at this huge contest. I have heard that he is an ultra-
> conservative CD, which is fine for a regional. I am of the opinion,
> however, that with a spot on the team at stake that there be a bit
> more separation of the scores. What do you folks think?
>
> Oh, by the way anyone willing to take that thankless job of CD has my
> undying respect, so before you jackals flame the crud out of me,
> realize I'm trying to get some interesting discussion going on here as
> "The Beatles sent my father to Hell" and "My air conditioner ate my
> brother" are just not what I'm looking for when I come to this group.
>
> -EX
>

[Markus Graeber]

On Jun 25, 4:46 pm, Kathy > wrote:
> ...
> As I'm headed to Italy shortly to fly in the junior championships, I
> had hoped that a few people who have flown contests both domestically
> and internationally would weigh in on this issue. I've been wondering
> what to expect, and if my experience in US contests has prepared me
> for European contests.
> ...
>
> Kathy Fosha

I haven't flown any contests but have followed them more or less
closely over the last few years. The last Junior Worlds in Hus Bos in
the UK saw 7 ATs between 159km & 372km and 2 TATs of the 2:30 - 3:00
variety (the last day's TAT was canceled) in the Standard Class. The
ATs where done by the winner in between 1:43h (159km) for the shortest
AT and 4:04h (372km) and 4:13h (348km) for the longest ATs. More
details here: http://www.worldgliding2005.com

At the last Club Class Worlds in Vinion in Southern France they had,
IIRC, some 9 ATs between 291km and 499km and some 5 ATs between 1:30h
and 2:45h (apparently on the weaker days). The quickest AT was 315km
in 2:48h, the longest AT 499km in 5:25h by the respective winner. Two
more ATs took more than 4h by the winner, all results were achieved in
Standard Cirrus/Standard Libelle/Standard Jantar or similar. More
details here: http://www.wgc2006.fr

I would say that on a halfway decent day at a Club Class Worlds you
would expect a 300 - 350km task that'll take you around 3 hours. That
compares to a US Sports Class National. However, a booming day will
get you 400 - 500km and flight times that will be well in excess of
5h, something that is probably not done at a US Sports Class National.
The other key difference I can see is that you are more likely to fly
ATs, the TATs that are so popular in the US seem to be used less at
Worlds, MATs (or whatever the FAI equivalent is) are not common at
all.

Also keep in mind that the last Club Class Worlds were flown over the
Southern French Alps, a mountain area that very often sees rapid
changes in conditions in a very small time/space frame and as such can
present very demanding flying conditions that are hard to compare to
e.g. Ohio. The upcoming Junior Worlds will probably be similarly
demanding even though the mountains are not as high as in the Southern
French Alps.

My two cents,

Markus Graeber

[Chilhowee]

Regarding the post that I put up last week. I foolishly posted hearsay
regarding CD McQuigg's experience level. Below is copied email I
received from Mr. Clyde Taylor, the usual Contest Manager in Cordele,
GA. As I publicly cast doubt on Andy's experience as a Nationals CD, I
publicly offer my apology for posting ill-researched "facts". - Sarah
Kelly


>From Clyde Talor:
With regard to your posting on RAS, I preface this reply with the fact
that I was Contest Manager at Cordele during the period 1991 thru
2006, that being my last year. I have known Andy McQuigg for more
than 20 years. He has CDed the annual contest at Cordele for 10-12 of
those years. Among those meets were the 1997 Standard Class
Nationals, the 2003 Open and 18-Meter Class Nationals, and a small
PW-5 Nationals one year. We will receive sanction approval soon for
both the 2008 Standard Class Nationals and the 2009 15M Nationals at
Cordele, with Andy as CD, of course. Andy is highly-experienced in
Southeastern soaring and as a CD, and your statement about his level
of experience and ability is, to me, a personal slight to him.
Indeed, given the vagaries of the weather, there have been numerous
years, including 1997, where, but for his expertise, dedication, and
persistence, there might not have been a successful contest at all.
It would be well for you to check your facts before posting this type
of misinformation on RAS.