? For Dudley

[Marty[_2_]]

Hi Dudley,

I found that you have time in the T38 Talon. Is it as sweet to fly as it
looks?

Back in 85 at Oshkosh they had the civilian owned T38 on the ramp that I
later saw in a Pepsi commercial (Top Gun inspired) and in the movie Dragnet.
After getting back to camp I was telling a buddy of my instant fondness of
the jet. He dismissed it as "just a trainer".
After over 20 years, the Talon remains my favorite and grabs my attention
whether sitting on the ramp, in the air or even in short movie shot like in
Apollo 13.

Marty in Mo.

[Dudley Henriques]

On 2007-06-19 00:18:23 -0400, "Marty" > said:

> Hi Dudley,
>
> I found that you have time in the T38 Talon. Is it as sweet to fly as it
> looks?
>
> Back in 85 at Oshkosh they had the civilian owned T38 on the ramp that I
> later saw in a Pepsi commercial (Top Gun inspired) and in the movie Dragnet.
> After getting back to camp I was telling a buddy of my instant fondness of
> the jet. He dismissed it as "just a trainer".
> After over 20 years, the Talon remains my favorite and grabs my attention
> whether sitting on the ramp, in the air or even in short movie shot like in
> Apollo 13.
>
> Marty in Mo.

Hi Marty;

The 38 lists high on the list of airplanes I have flown. It is indeed
one of the true "fun" machines.
The comment made by your friend I find quite amusing :-)
The 38 was actually designed from the ground up to train pilots who
would be flying extremely high performance fighter planes. Considering
this purpose alone, Northrop built into the airplane sensitivity and
attention to handling that actually exceeded in many cases the
difficulity and attention to handling found in the fighters the pilots
would be flying after flying the Talon.
It is said within the Air Force, and rightly so, that NO pilot having
gone through the Talon program has to EVER be ashamed to "brag" about
having flown it :-)
We have a saying about the Talon;
"It sits on the ramp and gives you the impression it's going Mach 1"
Dudley Henriques

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Dudley Henriques wrote:
> We have a saying about the Talon;
> "It sits on the ramp and gives you the impression it's going Mach 1"



Ain't that the truth? I have a friend who flew them when she went through pilot
training and said they were a blast to fly. I'd love to just go for a ride in
one.

That is one sleek looking airplane.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Dudley Henriques]

On 2007-06-19 10:15:20 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
<mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> said:

> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>> We have a saying about the Talon;
>> "It sits on the ramp and gives you the impression it's going Mach 1"
>
>
>
> Ain't that the truth? I have a friend who flew them when she went
> through pilot
> training and said they were a blast to fly. I'd love to just go for a ride in
> one.
>
> That is one sleek looking airplane.

There's a little "trick" that's used from time to time in the Talon
community concerning taking a newbie up for their first ride in a 38.
The roll rate of the Talon is practically in the class of an urban
legend. At .9 mach with a full lateral stick throw, you can push 720
degrees/sec out of the roll rate. That's QUICK!
What you do is take the newbie up and talk up the roll rate during the
climb. Once up to altitude, you ask the newbie if they want to see a
roll. You always get a "yes" on this question :-)
You take the airplane out to .9 and key the ICS and ask,
"Are you ready?"
When you get the "yes" from the back seat, you jiggle the stick about
an inch left and back again. This "jars" the 38 on the longitudinal
axis to about 10 degrees and back again to level flight. Without
further fanfare you key the ICS and ask,
"How was THAT? Want to see another one????"
You almost always get a "HOLY ****!!!!" MAN, now THAT was FAST!!!!"
Then without warning, you actually roll the airplane with a full
lateral stick throw and laugh like hell as the newbie's helmet bounces
off the canopy.
GOD, I do miss the "good ole'days!! :-))
Dudley Henriques

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"Marty" > wrote in message
...
>He dismissed it as "just a trainer".
> After over 20 years, the Talon remains my favorite and grabs my attention
> whether sitting on the ramp, in the air or even in short movie shot like
> in Apollo 13.
>
> Marty in Mo.


Some good info here. very interesting read.
http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=126

--
http://straightandlevel1973.spaces.live.com/
I'm not always right,
But I'm never wrong!

[Marty[_2_]]

"Crash Lander" > wrote in message
...
> "Marty" > wrote in message
> ...
> Some good info here. very interesting read.
> http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=126
>
> --
> http://straightandlevel1973.spaces.live.com/
> I'm not always right,
> But I'm never wrong!
>

Thanks for the links!

I just love this from the fact sheet-
"The T-38 needs as little as 2,300 feet (695.2 meters) of runway to take off
and can climb from sea level to nearly 30,000 feet (9,068 meters) in one
minute. T-38s modified by the propulsion modernization program have
approximately 19 percent more thrust, reducing takeoff distance by 9
percent.
The instructor and student sit in tandem on rocket-powered ejection seats in
a pressurized, air-conditioned cockpit."

Don't think I'll ever experience the "720 degree roll rate" Dudley mentioned
but one can dream right?

Thanks again,

Marty in MO.

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
news:2007061912103350073-dhenriques@rcncom...
> You take the airplane out to .9 and key the ICS and ask,
> "Are you ready?"
> When you get the "yes" from the back seat, you jiggle the stick about an
> inch left and back again. This "jars" the 38 on the longitudinal axis to
> about 10 degrees and back again to level flight. Without further fanfare
> you key the ICS and ask,
> "How was THAT? Want to see another one????"
> You almost always get a "HOLY ****!!!!" MAN, now THAT was FAST!!!!"
> Then without warning, you actually roll the airplane with a full lateral
> stick throw and laugh like hell as the newbie's helmet bounces off the
> canopy.
> GOD, I do miss the "good ole'days!! :-))
> Dudley Henriques
>

LOL! That's just cruel! (but funny!) ;-)
Crash Lander
--
http://straightandlevel1973.spaces.live.com/
I'm not always right,
But I'm never wrong!

[Marty[_2_]]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
news:2007061912103350073-dhenriques@rcncom...
> On 2007-06-19 10:15:20 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
> <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> said:
>
>> SNIP
>> That is one sleek looking airplane.
>
> There's a little "trick" that's used from time to time in the Talon
> community concerning taking a newbie up for their first ride in a 38.
> The roll rate of the Talon is practically in the class of an urban legend.
> At .9 mach with a full lateral stick throw, you can push 720 degrees/sec
> out of the roll rate. That's QUICK!
> What you do is take the newbie up and talk up the roll rate during the
> climb. Once up to altitude, you ask the newbie if they want to see a roll.
> You always get a "yes" on this question :-)
> You take the airplane out to .9 and key the ICS and ask,
> "Are you ready?"
> When you get the "yes" from the back seat, you jiggle the stick about an
> inch left and back again. This "jars" the 38 on the longitudinal axis to
> about 10 degrees and back again to level flight. Without further fanfare
> you key the ICS and ask,
> "How was THAT? Want to see another one????"
> You almost always get a "HOLY ****!!!!" MAN, now THAT was FAST!!!!"
> Then without warning, you actually roll the airplane with a full lateral
> stick throw and laugh like hell as the newbie's helmet bounces off the
> canopy.
> GOD, I do miss the "good ole'days!! :-))
> Dudley Henriques
>

Thanks Dudley,

I never could look at it as "just a trainer". I'd love to be that newbe
bouncing his helmet off the canopy. The longevity of the jet and all of the
efforts and upgrades being done to keep it on line is a tribute to the
design.

Thanks again,
Marty in Mo.

[Dudley Henriques]

On 2007-06-19 21:21:48 -0400, "Marty" > said:

>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> news:2007061912103350073-dhenriques@rcncom...
>> On 2007-06-19 10:15:20 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
>> <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> said:
>>
>>> SNIP
>>> That is one sleek looking airplane.
>>
>> There's a little "trick" that's used from time to time in the Talon
>> community concerning taking a newbie up for their first ride in a 38.
>> The roll rate of the Talon is practically in the class of an urban legend.
>> At .9 mach with a full lateral stick throw, you can push 720 degrees/sec
>> out of the roll rate. That's QUICK!
>> What you do is take the newbie up and talk up the roll rate during the
>> climb. Once up to altitude, you ask the newbie if they want to see a roll.
>> You always get a "yes" on this question :-)
>> You take the airplane out to .9 and key the ICS and ask,
>> "Are you ready?"
>> When you get the "yes" from the back seat, you jiggle the stick about an
>> inch left and back again. This "jars" the 38 on the longitudinal axis to
>> about 10 degrees and back again to level flight. Without further fanfare
>> you key the ICS and ask,
>> "How was THAT? Want to see another one????"
>> You almost always get a "HOLY ****!!!!" MAN, now THAT was FAST!!!!"
>> Then without warning, you actually roll the airplane with a full lateral
>> stick throw and laugh like hell as the newbie's helmet bounces off the
>> canopy.
>> GOD, I do miss the "good ole'days!! :-))
>> Dudley Henriques
>>
>
> Thanks Dudley,
>
> I never could look at it as "just a trainer". I'd love to be that newbe
> bouncing his helmet off the canopy. The longevity of the jet and all of the
> efforts and upgrades being done to keep it on line is a tribute to the
> design.
>
> Thanks again,
> Marty in Mo.

I talk to the T38 Thunderbird alumni almost every week having several
friends from that era who flew the Talon on the team.
Naturally the guys loved the F4 for airshow work as it was big, noisy,
and the team could use the smoke from the J79's as a hack index
reference. But of all the planes the guys flew, they swear they liked
the Talon the best.
If you ever get the chance, you might enjoy reading "They Rode The
Thunder", the official history of the Thunderbirds, written by my good
friend Bob Gore. Bob was with the Talon team and in fact designed the
beautiful paint scheme you see on the Thunderbird T38's.
Dudley Henriques

[Dudley Henriques]

On 2007-06-19 21:12:02 -0400, "Marty" > said:

>
> "Crash Lander" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Marty" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> Some good info here. very interesting read.
>> http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=126
>>
>> --
>> http://straightandlevel1973.spaces.live.com/
>> I'm not always right,
>> But I'm never wrong!
>>
>
> Thanks for the links!
>
> I just love this from the fact sheet-
> "The T-38 needs as little as 2,300 feet (695.2 meters) of runway to take off
> and can climb from sea level to nearly 30,000 feet (9,068 meters) in one
> minute. T-38s modified by the propulsion modernization program have
> approximately 19 percent more thrust, reducing takeoff distance by 9
> percent.
> The instructor and student sit in tandem on rocket-powered ejection seats in
> a pressurized, air-conditioned cockpit."
>
> Don't think I'll ever experience the "720 degree roll rate" Dudley mentioned
> but one can dream right?
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Marty in MO.

One of the hardest things you have to do when flying the 38 is to get
the wheels off the ground on takeoff and the gear sucked in before
exceeding first the max tire speed and then the max gear speed. It
happens VERY QUICKLY!!! :-)
Dudley Henriques

[Jim Logajan]

"Marty" > wrote:
> I never could look at it as "just a trainer". I'd love to be that
> newbe bouncing his helmet off the canopy. The longevity of the jet and
> all of the efforts and upgrades being done to keep it on line is a
> tribute to the design.
>
> Thanks again,
> Marty in Mo.

If you are ever in Oregon, there's a T-38A at the Evergreen Aviation Musem
in McMinnville - along with a few other notable air and space craft:

http://www.sprucegoose.org/aircraft_artifacts/planes_train.html

[Jay B]

On Jun 19, 8:57 pm, Richard Riley > wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 03:47:39 -0000, Jim Logajan >
> wrote:
>
> >"Marty" > wrote:
> >> I never could look at it as "just a trainer". I'd love to be that
> >> newbe bouncing his helmet off the canopy. The longevity of the jet and
> >> all of the efforts and upgrades being done to keep it on line is a
> >> tribute to the design.
>
> >> Thanks again,
> >> Marty in Mo.
>
> >If you are ever in Oregon, there's a T-38A at the Evergreen Aviation Musem
> >in McMinnville - along with a few other notable air and space craft:
>
> >http://www.sprucegoose.org/aircraft_artifacts/planes_train.html
>
> Paul Allen (Microsoft) owned a T-38 (he might still, I just haven't
> seen it in a while)
>
> N586PC

As does, IIRC, Ross Perot's son...painted in the TBirds scheme.

I'm fairly certain that this particular bird was assembled from spares
and it generated one of those "shaggy airplane" stories where the
owner goes to register it with the FAA and gets told "You Don't Have A
T38..."

Jay B

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
news:2007061912103350073-dhenriques@rcncom...
> On 2007-06-19 10:15:20 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
> <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> said:
>
>> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>>> We have a saying about the Talon;
>>> "It sits on the ramp and gives you the impression it's going Mach 1"
>>
>>
>>
>> Ain't that the truth? I have a friend who flew them when she went
>> through pilot
>> training and said they were a blast to fly. I'd love to just go for a
>> ride in
>> one.
>>
>> That is one sleek looking airplane.
>
> There's a little "trick" that's used from time to time in the Talon
> community concerning taking a newbie up for their first ride in a 38.
> The roll rate of the Talon is practically in the class of an urban legend.
> At .9 mach with a full lateral stick throw, you can push 720 degrees/sec
> out of the roll rate. That's QUICK!
> What you do is take the newbie up and talk up the roll rate during the
> climb. Once up to altitude, you ask the newbie if they want to see a roll.
> You always get a "yes" on this question :-)
> You take the airplane out to .9 and key the ICS and ask,
> "Are you ready?"
> When you get the "yes" from the back seat, you jiggle the stick about an
> inch left and back again. This "jars" the 38 on the longitudinal axis to
> about 10 degrees and back again to level flight. Without further fanfare
> you key the ICS and ask,
> "How was THAT? Want to see another one????"
> You almost always get a "HOLY ****!!!!" MAN, now THAT was FAST!!!!"
> Then without warning, you actually roll the airplane with a full lateral
> stick throw and laugh like hell as the newbie's helmet bounces off the
> canopy.
> GOD, I do miss the "good ole'days!! :-))
> Dudley Henriques

You must run with scissors, too! :~)

[Dudley Henriques]

On 2007-06-20 11:00:42 -0400, Richard Riley > said:

> On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 06:37:05 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
>> news:2007061912103350073-dhenriques@rcncom...
>>> On 2007-06-19 10:15:20 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
>>> <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> said:
>>>
>>>> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>>>>> We have a saying about the Talon;
>>>>> "It sits on the ramp and gives you the impression it's going Mach 1"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ain't that the truth? I have a friend who flew them when she went
>>>> through pilot
>>>> training and said they were a blast to fly. I'd love to just go for a
>>>> ride in
>>>> one.
>>>>
>>>> That is one sleek looking airplane.
>>>
>>> There's a little "trick" that's used from time to time in the Talon
>>> community concerning taking a newbie up for their first ride in a 38.
>>> The roll rate of the Talon is practically in the class of an urban legend.
>>> At .9 mach with a full lateral stick throw, you can push 720 degrees/sec
>>> out of the roll rate. That's QUICK!
>>> What you do is take the newbie up and talk up the roll rate during the
>>> climb. Once up to altitude, you ask the newbie if they want to see a roll.
>>> You always get a "yes" on this question :-)
>>> You take the airplane out to .9 and key the ICS and ask,
>>> "Are you ready?"
>>> When you get the "yes" from the back seat, you jiggle the stick about an
>>> inch left and back again. This "jars" the 38 on the longitudinal axis to
>>> about 10 degrees and back again to level flight. Without further fanfare
>>> you key the ICS and ask,
>>> "How was THAT? Want to see another one????"
>>> You almost always get a "HOLY ****!!!!" MAN, now THAT was FAST!!!!"
>>> Then without warning, you actually roll the airplane with a full lateral
>>> stick throw and laugh like hell as the newbie's helmet bounces off the
>>> canopy.
>>> GOD, I do miss the "good ole'days!! :-))
>>> Dudley Henriques
>>
>> You must run with scissors, too! :~)
>>
>
> He runs while juggling scissors :)

Would that be a horizontal scissors or a vertical rolling scissors? :-)
Dudley Henriques

[John Godwin]

Dudley Henriques > wrote in
news:2007062011293016807-dhenriques@rcncom:

> Would that be a horizontal scissors or a vertical rolling
> scissors? :-) Dudley Henriques
>
Vertical Rolling Scissors ..now THAT'S excitement. :-)



--

[Dudley Henriques]

On 2007-06-20 13:25:10 -0400, John Godwin > said:

> Dudley Henriques > wrote in
> news:2007062011293016807-dhenriques@rcncom:
>
>> Would that be a horizontal scissors or a vertical rolling
>> scissors? :-) Dudley Henriques
>>
> Vertical Rolling Scissors ..now THAT'S excitement. :-)

Could be :-)) Problem with a VRS is that if it works you just MIGHT
shake a close in shooter by forcing a high angle off overshoot. If it
doesn't work, you might just solve the shooter's tracking solution :-)
Probably the best on film example of a vertical rolling scissors I've
seen when NOT flying, was an in-flight shot taken during the filming of
"The Battle of Britain".

The shot was made from the nose of the B25 film plane being used for
the movie, and the two pilots involved if I remember rightmight have
been Lefty Gardner and Loyd Nolan of the Confederate Air Force who went
over and assisted in the air to air filming.

In one of the aerial dogfight scenes,a Spitfire being attacked by an
Me109 executes a perfect underneath vertical rolling scissors by
dragging the in close ME down and outside as he rolls and pulls in
tighter than the ME, forcing the ME to overshoot him completely in the
vertical plane.
A gorgeous textbook maneuver. Shown many times at Top Gun and AF
Fighter Lead In Schools
Dudley Henriques

[Blanche]

Speed: 812 mph (Mach 1.08 at sea level)
Ceiling: Above 55,000 feet (16,764 meters)
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 12,093 pounds (5,485 kilograms)
Range: 1,093 miles
Armament: T-38A: none; AT-38B: provisions for practice bomb dispenser
Unit Cost: $756,000

Hm....not much more expensive than a fully-loaded Cirrus, much
cheaper than most VLJ.

Of course, this was back in the 60s...