What I wanted Piper Ceo Bass to say...

[Jay Honeck]

If you read my "Gloom" post, you know what the CEO of Piper told us at
the Cherokee Pilots Association annual convention last weekend.

This is what I wanted him to say:

***************************************
Ladies & Gentlemen of the Cherokee Pilots Association:

Thank you for inviting me to speak at your fly-in. I am honored to
appear before Pipers' most loyal and active customers, and have some
great news for you today.

First, I am pleased to announce the introduction of the plane you've
all been waiting for -- the new Arrow V. This plane will be powered
by the Lycoming O-540 engine, have a range of over 1000 nautical
miles, and will cruise at 185 knots.

That's 212 miles per hour, here in America.

This aircraft, while an evolution of the Cherokee line, will be truly
revolutionary. Not only will it be one of the fastest, most
comfortable personal aircraft in the world, it will assure Pipers
position as a general aviation leader for many years to come.

With your help we have given the design of this aircraft great thought
and planning. We have selected the normally aspirated Lycoming engine
(over the injected version) so that you owners may continue to take
advantage of the huge fuel cost savings the Auto Gas STC provides
you.

In my opinion, the more you fly, the better off Piper will be -- and
if you can save a buck a gallon with the mogas STC, you're gonna fly
more.

You will notice that I said it will cruise at "185 knots". I'm sure
that has raised more than a few eye brows here, as few people thought
we could get that kind of speed out of a Cherokee airframe.

Well, it wasn't easy. But that's my next announcement -- because
we're also announcing a Cherokee airframe clean-up program that will
eliminate fully 10% of the parasitic drag on our 30+ year-old Cherokee
design.

To this end, today I am announcing a partnership with the Lopresti
Corporation, and from this day forward all Cherokees will come
equipped with ALL of their speed modifications as standard
equipment.

That's right, all of them -- from the wing-to-fuselage filet to the
stabilator gap seals -- all will be included on each and every
Cherokee.

But there's more -- we're making some major changes in the way we
build the Cherokee line. Today I am announcing that we will be
incorporating flush rivets and a special metal-bonding technology
throughout the airframe. We are also completely redesigning the all-
too-fragile (and draggy) cowling. No aerodynamic speed bumps will be
over-looked on ANY of our Cherokees -- and all will benefit from an
extra 10 to 15 knots in cruise.

With regard to the Arrow V, the Lycoming O-540 will be tuned to make a
clean 250 horsepower, giving it fully 25% more horsepower than its
predecessor. This extra power, combined with all the new airframe
enhancements, will make the Arrow truly competitive with Cirrus and
Columbia, and will absolutely blow away anything Cessna makes today.

Finally -- and this is the one you've ALL been longing to hear, for
many years -- the new Arrow V will incorporate TWO cabin doors,
allowing for easy access and egress. This is an enhancement that
literally every Piper CEO since Pug Piper has heard from the field,
and at last we have heard your call!

Other recent improvements at Piper include better labor relations, and
a full recovery from the hurricanes in 2006. Further, we're looking
at the possibility of using our factory facilities to paint used
aircraft, and planning is in the works for a new Piper bizjet.

But these plans -- while certainly great -- are mere footnotes by
comparison to the new Arrow V -- an aircraft that will enhance Piper's
legacy as THE personal airplane builder for the common man. This
plane will ensure our long-term survival in a very competitive market
for decades to come.

In conclusion, I'd like to thank you all for listening to me speak
today. I know you're all planning on flying home soon, but I hope
you'll be able to delay your departure until after 10 AM tomorrow
morning -- because we're got a little surprise for you all.

As members of the Cherokee Pilots Association, you are Pipers most
loyal, best customers -- and we have decided that there is simply no
better group to introduce our new Arrow V to!

Therefore, tomorrow morning, at 10 AM, our new Arrow V prototype will
making its first public appearance at Grand Glaize Airport. There,
you will be able to see and appreciate what we've done for you -- and
we ask that you take time to meet with our product research team, who
will be asking your opinions of this new bird.

We aim to incorporate any and all good suggestions you might have for
the new Arrow V, since -- after all -- who could possibly know our
products better than you?

Okay, enough speechifying -- I'd like to open it up for questioning
now...who's first?"
***********************************************
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose]

> If you read my "Gloom" post, you know what the CEO of Piper told us at
> the Cherokee Pilots Association annual convention last weekend.
>
> This is what I wanted him to say:
>[...]
> First, I am pleased to announce the introduction of the plane you've
> all been waiting for -- the new Arrow V. This plane will be powered
> by the Lycoming O-540 engine, have a range of over 1000 nautical
> miles, and will cruise at 185 knots
> [much droolable stuff snipped]
.....
> Okay, enough speechifying -- I'd like to open it up for questioning
> now...who's first?"

Are the rumors that we can buy this plane for under $65,000 true? With
the full avionics package with weather and deice in the brochure?

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[[email protected]]

On Jun 20, 9:28 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> If you read my "Gloom" post, you know what the CEO of Piper told us at
> the Cherokee Pilots Association annual convention last weekend.
>
> This is what I wanted him to say:
>
> ***************************************
> Ladies & Gentlemen of the Cherokee Pilots Association:
>
> Thank you for inviting me to speak at your fly-in. I am honored to
> appear before Pipers' most loyal and active customers, and have some
> great news for you today.
>
> First, I am pleased to announce the introduction of the plane you've
> all been waiting for -- the new Arrow V. This plane will be powered
> by the Lycoming O-540 engine, have a range of over 1000 nautical
> miles, and will cruise at 185 knots.
>
> That's 212 miles per hour, here in America.
>
> This aircraft, while an evolution of the Cherokee line, will be truly
> revolutionary. Not only will it be one of the fastest, most
> comfortable personal aircraft in the world, it will assure Pipers
> position as a general aviation leader for many years to come.
>
> With your help we have given the design of this aircraft great thought
> and planning. We have selected the normally aspirated Lycoming engine
> (over the injected version) so that you owners may continue to take
> advantage of the huge fuel cost savings the Auto Gas STC provides
> you.
>
> In my opinion, the more you fly, the better off Piper will be -- and
> if you can save a buck a gallon with the mogas STC, you're gonna fly
> more.
>
> You will notice that I said it will cruise at "185 knots". I'm sure
> that has raised more than a few eye brows here, as few people thought
> we could get that kind of speed out of a Cherokee airframe.
>
> Well, it wasn't easy. But that's my next announcement -- because
> we're also announcing a Cherokee airframe clean-up program that will
> eliminate fully 10% of the parasitic drag on our 30+ year-old Cherokee
> design.
>
> To this end, today I am announcing a partnership with the Lopresti
> Corporation, and from this day forward all Cherokees will come
> equipped with ALL of their speed modifications as standard
> equipment.
>
> That's right, all of them -- from the wing-to-fuselage filet to the
> stabilator gap seals -- all will be included on each and every
> Cherokee.
>
> But there's more -- we're making some major changes in the way we
> build the Cherokee line. Today I am announcing that we will be
> incorporating flush rivets and a special metal-bonding technology
> throughout the airframe. We are also completely redesigning the all-
> too-fragile (and draggy) cowling. No aerodynamic speed bumps will be
> over-looked on ANY of our Cherokees -- and all will benefit from an
> extra 10 to 15 knots in cruise.
>
> With regard to the Arrow V, the Lycoming O-540 will be tuned to make a
> clean 250 horsepower, giving it fully 25% more horsepower than its
> predecessor. This extra power, combined with all the new airframe
> enhancements, will make the Arrow truly competitive with Cirrus and
> Columbia, and will absolutely blow away anything Cessna makes today.
>
> Finally -- and this is the one you've ALL been longing to hear, for
> many years -- the new Arrow V will incorporate TWO cabin doors,
> allowing for easy access and egress. This is an enhancement that
> literally every Piper CEO since Pug Piper has heard from the field,
> and at last we have heard your call!
>
> Other recent improvements at Piper include better labor relations, and
> a full recovery from the hurricanes in 2006. Further, we're looking
> at the possibility of using our factory facilities to paint used
> aircraft, and planning is in the works for a new Piper bizjet.
>
> But these plans -- while certainly great -- are mere footnotes by
> comparison to the new Arrow V -- an aircraft that will enhance Piper's
> legacy as THE personal airplane builder for the common man. This
> plane will ensure our long-term survival in a very competitive market
> for decades to come.
>
> In conclusion, I'd like to thank you all for listening to me speak
> today. I know you're all planning on flying home soon, but I hope
> you'll be able to delay your departure until after 10 AM tomorrow
> morning -- because we're got a little surprise for you all.
>
> As members of the Cherokee Pilots Association, you are Pipers most
> loyal, best customers -- and we have decided that there is simply no
> better group to introduce our new Arrow V to!
>
> Therefore, tomorrow morning, at 10 AM, our new Arrow V prototype will
> making its first public appearance at Grand Glaize Airport. There,
> you will be able to see and appreciate what we've done for you -- and
> we ask that you take time to meet with our product research team, who
> will be asking your opinions of this new bird.
>
> We aim to incorporate any and all good suggestions you might have for
> the new Arrow V, since -- after all -- who could possibly know our
> products better than you?
>
> Okay, enough speechifying -- I'd like to open it up for questioning
> now...who's first?"
> ***********************************************
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Jay,

Why don't you email this to Bass and see what he has to say?

Dean

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

if Bass could bend the laws of physics like that, maybe you could have
him tell next week's lottery numbers, too.

> This aircraft, while an evolution of the Cherokee line, will be truly
> revolutionary. Not only will it be one of the fastest, most
> comfortable personal aircraft in the world,

How? Mooney and Columbia are faster than your number, all modern
airframes are way more comfortable.

> it will assure Pipers
> position as a general aviation leader for many years to come.

It never was that leader, it never will be.

> (over the injected version) so that you owners may continue to take
> advantage of the huge fuel cost savings the Auto Gas STC provides
> you.

One word: Ethanol.

> Well, it wasn't easy. But that's my next announcement -- because
> we're also announcing a Cherokee airframe clean-up program that will
> eliminate fully 10% of the parasitic drag on our 30+ year-old Cherokee
> design.

Clean up all you want, you're just not going to get there.

> Today I am announcing that we will be
> incorporating flush rivets and a special metal-bonding technology
> throughout the airframe.

And there you go into a new certification.

> This extra power, combined with all the new airframe
> enhancements, will make the Arrow truly competitive with Cirrus and
> Columbia, and will absolutely blow away anything Cessna makes today.

Uhm, no.

> Finally -- and this is the one you've ALL been longing to hear, for
> many years -- the new Arrow V will incorporate TWO cabin doors,
> allowing for easy access and egress.

Ah, new certification, again.

> But these plans -- while certainly great -- are mere footnotes by
> comparison to the new Arrow V -- an aircraft that will enhance Piper's
> legacy as THE personal airplane builder for the common man.

So how do some enhancements on a 50 year old airframe make it more
attractive than four (Columbia, Cirrus, DA50, Cessna NGP) or more brand
new contemporary designs? And what do you expect the price to be on an
airplane that is already way more complex to build than the ones listed
above? I know you like Piper, but that's just not how the market works.

Look at the sales numbers. The Arrow is currently the lowest selling
Piper aircraft of all - by a huge margin.

Let's assume Piper would manage to do the stuff you suggest AND keep the
price the same. Let's further assume they would get a tenfold increase
of Arrow sales. I guess we can all agree that would be huge, now,
wouldn't it? That would mean 50 Arrow sales per year - a very, very
distant spot way behind Cessna, Cirrus, Diamond and even Columbia.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[kontiki]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> Let's assume Piper would manage to do the stuff you suggest AND keep the
> price the same. Let's further assume they would get a tenfold increase
> of Arrow sales. I guess we can all agree that would be huge, now,
> wouldn't it? That would mean 50 Arrow sales per year - a very, very
> distant spot way behind Cessna, Cirrus, Diamond and even Columbia.
>

If Piper was really interested in a modern and fast aircraft based
on one of its older aircraft they would start with the Comanche
not the Cherokee. In fact, a company has already designed a
modern composite version (also availabe in fixed gear) which
has amazing performance numbers. Its called the Ravin (checkout
http://www.saravin.com/).

One of the huge stumbling blocks to certifying modern
aircraft is the MASSIVE costs and liabilities involved.
I think the future of GA (as we know it) will be in
experimental designs.

[ktbr]

http://www.ravinaircraftusa.com/

[Peter R.]

On 6/20/2007 11:28:19 PM, Jay Honeck wrote:

> If you read my "Gloom" post, you know what the CEO of Piper told us at
> the Cherokee Pilots Association annual convention last weekend.
<snip>

You are certainly quite loyal to the Piper name.

--
Peter

[Aluckyguess]

Sounds like they need to buy the Bonanza line.

[Nathan Young]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:28:18 -0700, Jay Honeck >
wrote:

>If you read my "Gloom" post, you know what the CEO of Piper told us at
>the Cherokee Pilots Association annual convention last weekend.
>
>This is what I wanted him to say:
>
>***************************************
>Ladies & Gentlemen of the Cherokee Pilots Association:
>
>Thank you for inviting me to speak at your fly-in. I am honored to
>appear before Pipers' most loyal and active customers, and have some
>great news for you today.
>
>First, I am pleased to announce the introduction of the plane you've
>all been waiting for -- the new Arrow V. This plane will be powered
>by the Lycoming O-540 engine, have a range of over 1000 nautical
>miles, and will cruise at 185 knots.

The Turbo Arrow claims to have a max cruise of 177kts, so that's not
far from your request.
http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/info/airplane423.shtml

Turbo lance can do 189kts, but the range is ~700nm.
http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/info/airplane409.shtml

I have wondered why there was not a retract version of the 235. I
suppose there is not enough room in the nose area for a big engine and
the nose gear.

A few companies (RAM, P.Ponk) have gone the STC route to improve
engines on existing airframes.... Perhaps that would be a way to
achieve higher HP on Arrow airframes.

On a similiar note... I once saw a Cherokee 235 for sale that had
engine mods to make either 250 or 260HP (can't remember which). When
I asked about it - the seller dodged the question if he had an STC for
the change, so I skipped on the plane.

[Jay Honeck]

> Why don't you email this to Bass and see what he has to say?

It's already made it there, I'll wager.

My comments have ricocheted around the internet, apparently making it
into all the top-dog's email boxes. The firestorm over his speech
last weekend has really lit up the Cherokee Chat (and my email box)...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> How? Mooney and Columbia are faster than your number, all modern
> airframes are way more comfortable.

I'm with you on Columbia -- but MOONEY?

> It never was that leader, it never will be.

>From the 1940s through the 1960s, more pilots trained in the Piper Cub
than any other aircraft. (And, yeah, I know Piper bought the design
from Taylor -- but so what? Every plane has a designer.)

> One word: Ethanol.

Yep, ethanol pollution will be the death of the mogas STC. But not
yet!

> Clean up all you want, you're just not going to get there.

Why? The Cherokee airframe is draggy in many obvious ways. The
fact that Atlas has so many STC'd speed mods on him makes it easy to
see them.


> > Today I am announcing that we will be
> > incorporating flush rivets and a special metal-bonding technology
> > throughout the airframe.
>
> And there you go into a new certification.

Hey, I can dream, can't I?

> > This extra power, combined with all the new airframe
> > enhancements, will make the Arrow truly competitive with Cirrus and
> > Columbia, and will absolutely blow away anything Cessna makes today.
>
> Uhm, no.

What would Cessna have to offer in competition?

> > Finally -- and this is the one you've ALL been longing to hear, for
> > many years -- the new Arrow V will incorporate TWO cabin doors,
> > allowing for easy access and egress.
>
> Ah, new certification, again.

Oh, well. Piper is spending $100 million on the very speculative
"PiperJet". I wish them well.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
> Ladies & Gentlemen of the Cherokee Pilots Association:
>
> Thank you for inviting me to speak at your fly-in. I am honored to
> appear before Pipers' most loyal and active customers, and have some
> great news for you today.


Piper's sleek new diesel lineup


Paul-Mont
http://www.ionaircraft.com/
Hell, I'm looking forward to ION's sleek new diesel lineup! <g>

Test flight .....berry, berry, berry soon.

[Blueskies]

"Jose" > wrote in message t...
>> If you read my "Gloom" post, you know what the CEO of Piper told us at
>> the Cherokee Pilots Association annual convention last weekend.
>>
>> This is what I wanted him to say: [...]
>> First, I am pleased to announce the introduction of the plane you've
>> all been waiting for -- the new Arrow V. This plane will be powered
>> by the Lycoming O-540 engine, have a range of over 1000 nautical
>> miles, and will cruise at 185 knots [much droolable stuff snipped]
> ....
>> Okay, enough speechifying -- I'd like to open it up for questioning
>> now...who's first?"
>
> Are the rumors that we can buy this plane for under $65,000 true? With the full avionics package with weather and
> deice in the brochure?
>
> Jose
> --


And a 10 year subscription to XM radio

[Paul kgyy]

Jay, I really have to disagree with most of that. As usual, Piper is
behind the development curve. I don't know if they even possess the
engineering skill to get their new jet off the ground, and even if
they do, they will be about 10th in line with VLJs. When was the last
time they put a truly new product on the market? The Comanche was a
fine product, but it should have come 5 years earlier.

If they bet the company on the VLJ, I think they are truly done for
unless they are lucky enough to get absorbed into something larger.

I have an Arrow, and it's about the last airframe I'd want to add a
300hp engine to. It's a good airplane the way it is, but there is
just no point in trying to stay in business by adding a 50 year old
Lycosaurus (carbureted, too!!!) to a 40 year old airframe. Along
similar lines, I think Lycoming is ultimately done for as well;
they've lost the ability to control their quality. Sure, they have
added roller tappets or whatever to the 360 - big deal, when they
should have started with a clean sheet 15 years ago. Thielert and SMA
will ultimately eat their lunch as soon as Cirrus starts selling with
diesel power in their slick, comfortable airframe.

The current industry needs vision, not hindsight.

[Montblack]

("Paul kgyy" wrote)
> Thielert and SMA will ultimately eat their lunch as soon as Cirrus starts
> selling with diesel power in their slick, comfortable airframe.


SMA doesn't look like they have their ducks in a row, yet.

Thielert: I'm taking a wait and see, for now.
(I do hope they develop a reputation out of the box that's ...positive)

http://www.dieselair.com/
Fun site ....much reading.


Paul-Mont

[Thomas Borchert]

Montblack,

> SMA doesn't look like they have their ducks in a row, yet.

Fully agree. I doubt they will ever get there.

> Thielert: I'm taking a wait and see, for now.
> (I do hope they develop a reputation out of the box that's ...positive)

Hope so, too. However, some things have me worried. For example, when Diamond
announced the DA-50 at Aero, they said it would be available with a Diesel
from Diamond (!) which is already in development. Why would Diamond turn away
from Thielert which they are already using on the 40 and 42? Worrysome, IMHO.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> > How? Mooney and Columbia are faster than your number, all modern
> > airframes are way more comfortable.
>
> I'm with you on Columbia -- but MOONEY?

The Acclaim is faster. I didn't mention Mooney in relation to comfort.
Couldn't. Wouldn't. ;-)

> >From the 1940s through the 1960s, more pilots trained in the Piper Cub
> than any other aircraft.

Ok, I guess.

> Why? The Cherokee airframe is draggy in many obvious ways.

Yes, but it is not obvious how to get rid of the drag without building a
new plane.

> > And there you go into a new certification.
>
> Hey, I can dream, can't I?

Not that much, if you're trying to write a quasi-realistic speech for
Bass.

> > Uhm, no.
>
> What would Cessna have to offer in competition?

The NGP.

I'd really like your comment on the sales numbers. When I looked them up
at GAMA, I was kind of shocked to see how low they were. 5 (!) Arrows sold
in all of 2006! Piper is even more dead than I thought.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[john smith]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
Hope so, too. However, some things have me worried. For example, when
Diamond
> announced the DA-50 at Aero, they said it would be available with a Diesel
> from Diamond (!) which is already in development. Why would Diamond turn away
> from Thielert which they are already using on the 40 and 42? Worrysome, IMHO.

Because Thielert is totally dependent upon Mercedes to provide them with
engines.

[Jay Honeck]

> I'd really like your comment on the sales numbers. When I looked them up
> at GAMA, I was kind of shocked to see how low they were. 5 (!) Arrows sold
> in all of 2006! Piper is even more dead than I thought.

Yeah, it's awful. But then, the Arrow (in my opinion) is a plane
without a mission. It's underpowered and slow for a retractable, and
nowadays you can go faster in a Cirrus without the expense of folding
gear.

Put an O-540 in it, though, and look out. I think it would be a real
ass-kicker.

What's amazing (to me), given those sales numbers, is that Bass was
trumpeting how they've increased their workforce in Vero Beach
tremendously (I don't remember the exact number, but it was something
like 40%). I guess they must be building Meridians and Saratogas?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Thomas Borchert]

John,

> Because Thielert is totally dependent upon Mercedes to provide them with
> engines.
>

That can't be it. For two reasons:

1. The thing that Diamond allegedly has in development is based on an
automotive engine, too. In fact, I once read an article by Thielert where
he makes the calculation for developing an aircraft piston engine from
scratch vs. based on a car engine - and there's just no way you can break
even if you start from scratch these days.

2. Mercedes's output is so high that even if they quit making an engine
Thielert needs, it would be no problem at all for them to buy 20 years
worth of supply right before Merc shuts the production line down. The car
manufacturing numbers just are that much bigger. Our market is tiny.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> Put an O-540 in it, though, and look out. I think it would be a real
> ass-kicker.
>

I still don't see how. A real gas-guzzler, yes.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jay Honeck]

> > Put an O-540 in it, though, and look out. I think it would be a real
> > ass-kicker.
>
> I still don't see how. A real gas-guzzler, yes.

Well, my O-540-powered Pathfinder, with fixed gear, will absolutely
walk away from an Arrow.

It only follows that our engine in an airframe with gear that
disappears should be pretty danged quick.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>> Put an O-540 in it, though, and look out. I think it would be a real
>>> ass-kicker.
>> I still don't see how. A real gas-guzzler, yes.
>
> Well, my O-540-powered Pathfinder, with fixed gear, will absolutely
> walk away from an Arrow.

Yes, but at a huge fuel consumption penalty. And I doubt you will walk
away from a 200 HP Arrow very quickly. A 180 HP Arrow is a fair big
doggier than a 200 HP version.

Matt

[ktbr]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> 2. Mercedes's output is so high that even if they quit making an engine
> Thielert needs, it would be no problem at all for them to buy 20 years
> worth of supply right before Merc shuts the production line down. The car
> manufacturing numbers just are that much bigger. Our market is tiny.
>
>

In the old days people who lived and breathed aviation designed
and built engines (and aircraft) because it was in their DNA and
they owned most or all of the company. They made a fair profit,
built a lot of engines and airplanes that people could afford
and life was good.

Then over the years lawyers came along and started advertising
for lawsuits and caused a lot of these hard working aviation
businesses to go bankrupt in a single lawsuit over ae crash
which in all likelhood was caused by pilot error. They could make
millions in a few months off of of the decades of hard work of
these little aircraft companies.

After most of the blood was sucked away, (a day late and a dollar
short as usual) the government stepped in and passed a few laws
to prevent the last few drops from being sucked. The lawyers
had by then developed and perfected "IV" sucking devices for
a number of different industries that could still suck a lot
of blood, whil insurance companies sucked up the rest.

The result is the small innovative companies can not compete
in the marketplace because they just don't have the capital
to pay the insurance, taxes and all the other liabilities
that go with it and make enough profit to make it worth the effort.
If they do make a profit, the lawyers will be ready to suck it
all away when the first mishap occurs.

[Paul kgyy]

>
> http://www.dieselair.com/
> Fun site ....much reading.
>
> Paul-Mont

That's a great site; thanks for the link! I was surprised how well
DeltaHawk is doing, as I did not know of the UAV relationship.

I'd love to hang their 200hp model on a Velocity, but have some doubts
about what I would do if the engine went tango uniform in Dodge City.

[Paul kgyy]

>
> Well, my O-540-powered Pathfinder, with fixed gear, will absolutely
> walk away from an Arrow.
>

Trade a Plane lists the 75% cruise of the Pathfinder at 133 knots,
which is about what the later Arrows do. The Dakota is listed at
144. Earlier models of the Arrow are a little faster. Mine routinely
shows 150 knots at best power, but I found out last month that my ASI
is lying :-( Nice feeling, though. Unfortunately, the GPS tells
me that I ALWAYS have headwinds.

Anyway, these are all draggy airframes, not worth trying to enhance.
Cramped interior, noisy, drafty. The only thing they really offer is
cheaper.

[Thomas Borchert]

Paul,

> Anyway, these are all draggy airframes, not worth trying to enhance.
> Cramped interior, noisy, drafty. The only thing they really offer is
> cheaper.
>

Well put.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jay Honeck]

> > Anyway, these are all draggy airframes, not worth trying to enhance.
> > Cramped interior, noisy, drafty. The only thing they really offer is
> > cheaper.
>
> Well put.

Dunno about "cramped" -- I'm 6 feet tall, and have plenty of room.
"Noisy" is something that comes with all prop-driven, piston-powered
aircraft, as far as I can tell. ANR headsets solve that.

Drafty? You've got a problem that can be easily fixed. Poke around
on the Cherokee Pilots Association "Cherokee Chat" and you will find
much good advice about getting rid of air leaks in your Arrow. I had
the same problem in our Warrior, and ended up with a draft-free cabin,
after doing a few simple things. (Atlas is remarkably air-tight.
I've not had to do ANYTHING in the five years we've owned it. In
fact, I just won a new door seal in the drawings at the CPA fly-in,
and have swapped it with the donor for a discount on a landing light
blinker system. No need for the seal!)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> > Anyway, these are all draggy airframes, not worth trying to enhance.
>> > Cramped interior, noisy, drafty. The only thing they really offer is
>> > cheaper.
>>
>> Well put.
>
> Dunno about "cramped" -- I'm 6 feet tall, and have plenty of room.

How W I D E are you?

I'm 6'1", but I wear a size 48 jacket. In most aircraft, my passenger has to
sit semi-sideways.


--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> Dunno about "cramped" -- I'm 6 feet tall, and have plenty of room.
>

Have you flown a Bo, a Cirrus, a Socata TB for long distance? If you
haven't, you don't know the meaning of "plenty of room" ;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)