Helicopters for glider pilots

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jun 21, 7:53 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
Now a Bell 47 helicopter, THAT is hard to fly.

With zero helicopter time I had the opportunity to fly a Bell 47. In
less that 40 minutes of flight and perhaps 20 minutes on the controls,
I had done takeoff, hover, hover turns, approaches and landings. The
thing I found most difficult was keeping the engine in the 200rpm
power band with changes in collective.

I suspect that any glider pilot used to flying with a light touch on
the stick would have a similar experience.

Isn't the difficulty of flying helicopters a myth perpetuated by
helicopter pilots?

Andy

[flying_monkey]

Well, a few years back, I had the opportunity to take a couple of
lessons in an R-22. I'm a power and glider pilot of no great
accomplishment, but that made me feel that not more than 20% of what I
know about flying applied to helicopters. After 2 hours, I was just
barely getting the ability to hover. I could handle it OK in the air,
but not very well near the ground. It seems like learning to ride a
bicycle: When you can't do it, you don't see how you can learn to do
it. When you can do it, you don't see what's the big deal. And you
can't tell anybody how you do it. After that 2 hours, I was just on
the edge of feeling that I was about to get it.

But, it's as much fun as anything I've ever done with my clothes on,
being equaled (but not surpassed) only by flying a glider.

Ed

[flying_monkey]

I forgot to give a shout out to Chris Townsend of Hoxton Park,
Australia, my instructor in the R-22. He is the absolute master of
that machine, and the _best_ instructor it has ever been my privilege
to fly with. And that intends no insult to others like Jim Indrebo,
Jim Burch and Tom Knauff that I've flown with.

Ed

[Jim Vincent]

"Andy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Jun 21, 7:53 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> Now a Bell 47 helicopter, THAT is hard to fly.
>
> With zero helicopter time I had the opportunity to fly a Bell 47. In
> less that 40 minutes of flight and perhaps 20 minutes on the controls,
> I had done takeoff, hover, hover turns, approaches and landings. The
> thing I found most difficult was keeping the engine in the 200rpm
> power band with changes in collective.
>
> I suspect that any glider pilot used to flying with a light touch on
> the stick would have a similar experience.
>
> Isn't the difficulty of flying helicopters a myth perpetuated by
> helicopter pilots?
>
> Andy
>

I've been flying radio control helicopters for about twenty years. From
what I've heard on-line, most people proficient in RC hells learn the hover
in less than an hour.

[flying_monkey]

> I've been flying radio control helicopters for about twenty years. From
> what I've heard on-line, most people proficient in RC hells learn the hover
> in less than an hour.

Wow, that sounds like a good way to learn the real thing. But how
much does it cost in broken equipment to learn to fly an RC heli? And
how many hours?

Ed

[Nyal Williams]

Must be about like moving from air guitar to rock guitar
-- and about as significant!

It's a troll; flame on.

At 20:18 25 June 2007, Flying_Monkey wrote:
>
>> I've been flying radio control helicopters for about
>>twenty years. From
>> what I've heard on-line, most people proficient in
>>RC hells learn the hover
>> in less than an hour.
>
>Wow, that sounds like a good way to learn the real
>thing. But how
>much does it cost in broken equipment to learn to fly
>an RC heli? And
>how many hours?
>
>Ed
>
>

[Paul Hanson]

At 18:12 25 June 2007, Flying_Monkey wrote:
>Well, a few years back, I had the opportunity to take
>a couple of
>lessons in an R-22. I'm a power and glider pilot of
>no great
>accomplishment, but that made me feel that not more
>than 20% of what I
>know about flying applied to helicopters. After 2
>hours, I was just
>barely getting the ability to hover. I could handle
>it OK in the air,
>but not very well near the ground. It seems like learning
>to ride a
>bicycle: When you can't do it, you don't see how you
>can learn to do
>it. When you can do it, you don't see what's the big
>deal. And you
>can't tell anybody how you do it. After that 2 hours,
>I was just on
>the edge of feeling that I was about to get it.
>
>But, it's as much fun as anything I've ever done with
>my clothes on,
>being equaled (but not surpassed) only by flying a
>glider.
>
>Ed
>
I have heard from heli guys (everything from online
discussions to talking with Apache pilots), that the
R-22 is one of the most difficult and touchy choppers
to fly, analogous to the old 'riding a unicycle on
a basketball' saying. Perhaps the Bell 47 would be
a more satisfying beginner experience, allowing an
average pilot to feel like they could actually fly
helis.

Paul Hanson
"Do the usual, unusually well"--Len Niemi

[Vaughn Simon]

"Andy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I suspect that any glider pilot used to flying with a light touch on
> the stick would have a similar experience.
>
I have had the opportunity to take many rated pilots up for their first
glider lesson. Most caught on pretty quick, but virtually all found the tow
initially difficult. There is one who stands out in my mind as being able to
follow the tow plane on his first attempt without apparent strain.

He was a helicopter CFI.

Vaughn

[flying_monkey]

Yes, the R-22 is certainly "twitchy." But I've been told that if one
can fly that, there's no helicopter that they won't be able to
handle. Or maybe one should learn on something "easier" and then be
basically barred from flying the most common helo in the world. Maybe
it's like taildraggers. If you learn from scratch in one, it's no big
deal. By the time you can fly the airplane and land it, you can
handle that or probably most any taildragger. But if you learn in a
tri-gear airplane, you're basically barred from more than half of the
Sport Pilot capable airplanes.

My first flight with Chris Townsend was an introductory flight
lesson. It had flight instruction in it, but there was also a lot of
demonstration aspects to it, like confined area landing and takeoff,
and one-skid landings to drop off a passenger. When it came time to
demonstrate an autorotation, and he had me close the throttle at about
800 feet, I was nervous, as I've watched many of those from the ground
in everything from R-22s to UH-1s. He brought that little helo to a
full stop on the ground without ever touching the throttle, and made
it seem easy. I asked him, "If I were to learn to fly this helo from
you all the way to my license, would I be allowed to do autos to
touchdown?" He replied: "I'm sure not going to even solo you in this
until you can do autos to touchdown time after time." I have no doubt
he would have been able to teach that, even though I don't think
there's a single operator in the US which does touchdown autos in
R-22s.

Ed

[Bullwinkle]

On 6/25/07 7:01 PM, in article
om, "flying_monkey"
> wrote:

> Yes, the R-22 is certainly "twitchy." But I've been told that if one
> can fly that, there's no helicopter that they won't be able to
> handle. Or maybe one should learn on something "easier" and then be
> basically barred from flying the most common helo in the world. Maybe
> it's like taildraggers. If you learn from scratch in one, it's no big
> deal. By the time you can fly the airplane and land it, you can
> handle that or probably most any taildragger. But if you learn in a
> tri-gear airplane, you're basically barred from more than half of the
> Sport Pilot capable airplanes.
>
> My first flight with Chris Townsend was an introductory flight
> lesson. It had flight instruction in it, but there was also a lot of
> demonstration aspects to it, like confined area landing and takeoff,
> and one-skid landings to drop off a passenger. When it came time to
> demonstrate an autorotation, and he had me close the throttle at about
> 800 feet, I was nervous, as I've watched many of those from the ground
> in everything from R-22s to UH-1s. He brought that little helo to a
> full stop on the ground without ever touching the throttle, and made
> it seem easy. I asked him, "If I were to learn to fly this helo from
> you all the way to my license, would I be allowed to do autos to
> touchdown?" He replied: "I'm sure not going to even solo you in this
> until you can do autos to touchdown time after time." I have no doubt
> he would have been able to teach that, even though I don't think
> there's a single operator in the US which does touchdown autos in
> R-22s.
>
> Ed
>

As a current CFIG, and a 70's era Army Huey (dustoff) pilot, in my humble
opinion helicopters are indeed harder to learn. The control touch is simply
much more sensitive in all axes than in gliders.

Now, to fly either one well is probably equally challenging.

Learning to hover and learning to tow are remarkably similar in terms of the
skill set required to succeed.

You know how a new glider student on tow slips a little out of position,
then overcorrects and ends up out of position on the other side, then
overcorrects a little more, and ends up even farther out of position on the
first side, etc? Ever increasing oscillations on the tow rope until the CFIG
takes over, recovers, and lets the student try again?

The exact same oscillating cycle occurs when a new student first tries to
hover a helicopter. And the exact same correction by the CFI-H.

I can explain this a lot better, but I have to use my hands, and they seem
to be on a keyboard right now.

There is a video on the internet somewhere (perhaps 5Z will point it out,
because he showed it to me?) that shows a guy who tries to make his first
flight ever in a Hughes 269/300, SOLO. Gets into the oscillation, and since
there is no CFI-H to save his bacon, he wrecks his new helicopter after
about 20 seconds (or less) of total flight time.

JMHO,
Bullwinkle

[Bullwinkle]

On 6/25/07 7:43 PM, in article ,
"Bullwinkle" > wrote:

> On 6/25/07 7:01 PM, in article
> om, "flying_monkey"
> > wrote:
>
>> Yes, the R-22 is certainly "twitchy." But I've been told that if one
>> can fly that, there's no helicopter that they won't be able to
>> handle. Or maybe one should learn on something "easier" and then be
>> basically barred from flying the most common helo in the world. Maybe
>> it's like taildraggers. If you learn from scratch in one, it's no big
>> deal. By the time you can fly the airplane and land it, you can
>> handle that or probably most any taildragger. But if you learn in a
>> tri-gear airplane, you're basically barred from more than half of the
>> Sport Pilot capable airplanes.
>>
>> My first flight with Chris Townsend was an introductory flight
>> lesson. It had flight instruction in it, but there was also a lot of
>> demonstration aspects to it, like confined area landing and takeoff,
>> and one-skid landings to drop off a passenger. When it came time to
>> demonstrate an autorotation, and he had me close the throttle at about
>> 800 feet, I was nervous, as I've watched many of those from the ground
>> in everything from R-22s to UH-1s. He brought that little helo to a
>> full stop on the ground without ever touching the throttle, and made
>> it seem easy. I asked him, "If I were to learn to fly this helo from
>> you all the way to my license, would I be allowed to do autos to
>> touchdown?" He replied: "I'm sure not going to even solo you in this
>> until you can do autos to touchdown time after time." I have no doubt
>> he would have been able to teach that, even though I don't think
>> there's a single operator in the US which does touchdown autos in
>> R-22s.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>
> As a current CFIG, and a 70's era Army Huey (dustoff) pilot, in my humble
> opinion helicopters are indeed harder to learn. The control touch is simply
> much more sensitive in all axes than in gliders.
>
> Now, to fly either one well is probably equally challenging.
>
> Learning to hover and learning to tow are remarkably similar in terms of the
> skill set required to succeed.
>
> You know how a new glider student on tow slips a little out of position,
> then overcorrects and ends up out of position on the other side, then
> overcorrects a little more, and ends up even farther out of position on the
> first side, etc? Ever increasing oscillations on the tow rope until the CFIG
> takes over, recovers, and lets the student try again?
>
> The exact same oscillating cycle occurs when a new student first tries to
> hover a helicopter. And the exact same correction by the CFI-H.
>
> I can explain this a lot better, but I have to use my hands, and they seem
> to be on a keyboard right now.
>
> There is a video on the internet somewhere (perhaps 5Z will point it out,
> because he showed it to me?) that shows a guy who tries to make his first
> flight ever in a Hughes 269/300, SOLO. Gets into the oscillation, and since
> there is no CFI-H to save his bacon, he wrecks his new helicopter after
> about 20 seconds (or less) of total flight time.
>
> JMHO,
> Bullwinkle
>
OK, found it myself.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7309563581516986482&q=helicopter++c
rash&total=2352&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

Bullwinkle

[Stephen]

"Andy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> With zero helicopter time I had the opportunity to fly a Bell 47. In
> less that 40 minutes of flight and perhaps 20 minutes on the controls,
> I had done takeoff, hover, hover turns, approaches and landings. The
> thing I found most difficult was keeping the engine in the 200rpm
> power band with changes in collective.
>
> I suspect that any glider pilot used to flying with a light touch on
> the stick would have a similar experience.
>

I had a similar experience in a Hughes 300. Flying in normal flight was a
no brainer, while the hover, flying backwards, sideways and landing could be
accomplished reasonably easily - certainly within 30 mins. Yes the controls
are very sensitive, but as I observed at the time, I was used to flying and
was reasonably relaxed handling the controls. I've noticed when instructing
in gliders that people who are anxious often have difficulty controlling the
glider with sufficient sensitivity.

As I glider pilot I thought it essential that I was shown an autorotation
and power off landing. That was fun.

Stephen

[Bruce]

flying_monkey wrote:
>> I've been flying radio control helicopters for about twenty years. From
>> what I've heard on-line, most people proficient in RC hells learn the hover
>> in less than an hour.
>
> Wow, that sounds like a good way to learn the real thing. But how
> much does it cost in broken equipment to learn to fly an RC heli? And
> how many hours?
>
> Ed
>
Get the (RC) simulator - it is a lot cheaper. Don't ask how I know...

[Jim Vincent]

Not trolling.

Very similar. Over controlling at first, then the hover starts getting
easier as muscle memory builds. When I started RC choppers, we didn't have
simulators. I could not imagine starting from scratch again without them.

Choppers have really dropped in price. Prices are now very reasonable for
spares. With patience and diligence, it is very doable to learn how to fly
without any major, high cost wrecks.


"Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
...
> Must be about like moving from air guitar to rock guitar
> -- and about as significant!
>
> It's a troll; flame on.
>
> At 20:18 25 June 2007, Flying_Monkey wrote:
>>
>>> I've been flying radio control helicopters for about
>>>twenty years. From
>>> what I've heard on-line, most people proficient in
>>>RC hells learn the hover
>>> in less than an hour.
>>
>>Wow, that sounds like a good way to learn the real
>>thing. But how
>>much does it cost in broken equipment to learn to fly
>>an RC heli? And
>>how many hours?
>>
>>Ed
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Bob C]

I agree with Andy 100%. A good glider pilot should
be able to handle the Bell 47 in a short time. My
experience was similar to Andy's. The Bell is fun,
but the Schweizer 300 was much more 'spirited', like
a sports car.

The 'helicopter is hard to fly' rumor is perpetuated
by Spam-can Cessna drivers who are used to doing 50
pound curls on the yoke for landing, and leaving their
feet safely on the cockpit floor.

Helicopter pilots prefer this rumor:

'Fixed wing pilots have an intense interest in aviation...They're
just afraid to try it.'

BC


At 13:24 25 June 2007, Andy wrote:
>On Jun 21, 7:53 pm, 'Bill Daniels' wrote:
>Now a Bell 47 helicopter, THAT is hard to fly.
>
> With zero helicopter time I had the opportunity to
>fly a Bell 47. In
>less that 40 minutes of flight and perhaps 20 minutes
>on the controls,
>I had done takeoff, hover, hover turns, approaches
>and landings. The
>thing I found most difficult was keeping the engine
>in the 200rpm
>power band with changes in collective.
>
>I suspect that any glider pilot used to flying with
>a light touch on
>the stick would have a similar experience.
>
>Isn't the difficulty of flying helicopters a myth perpetuated
>by
>helicopter pilots?
>
>Andy
>
>

[bumper]

I like that old military definition of a helicopter . . .

"A mass of fatigued metal, rotating around an oil leak."

bumper

"Bob C" > wrote in message
...
>I agree with Andy 100%. A good glider pilot should
> be able to handle the Bell 47 in a short time. My
> experience was similar to Andy's. The Bell is fun,
> but the Schweizer 300 was much more 'spirited', like
> a sports car.
>
> The 'helicopter is hard to fly' rumor is perpetuated
> by Spam-can Cessna drivers who are used to doing 50
> pound curls on the yoke for landing, and leaving their
> feet safely on the cockpit floor.
>
> Helicopter pilots prefer this rumor:
>
> 'Fixed wing pilots have an intense interest in aviation...They're
> just afraid to try it.'
>
> BC
>
>
> At 13:24 25 June 2007, Andy wrote:
>>On Jun 21, 7:53 pm, 'Bill Daniels' wrote:
>>Now a Bell 47 helicopter, THAT is hard to fly.
>>
>> With zero helicopter time I had the opportunity to
>>fly a Bell 47. In
>>less that 40 minutes of flight and perhaps 20 minutes
>>on the controls,
>>I had done takeoff, hover, hover turns, approaches
>>and landings. The
>>thing I found most difficult was keeping the engine
>>in the 200rpm
>>power band with changes in collective.
>>
>>I suspect that any glider pilot used to flying with
>>a light touch on
>>the stick would have a similar experience.
>>
>>Isn't the difficulty of flying helicopters a myth perpetuated
>>by
>>helicopter pilots?
>>
>>Andy
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Bill Gribble]

Helicopters don't fly.

They're just so ugly the Earth repels them.

bumper > writes
>I like that old military definition of a helicopter . . .
>
>"A mass of fatigued metal, rotating around an oil leak."
>
>bumper

[Bruce]

Bob C wrote:
> I agree with Andy 100%. A good glider pilot should
> be able to handle the Bell 47 in a short time. My
> experience was similar to Andy's. The Bell is fun,
> but the Schweizer 300 was much more 'spirited', like
> a sports car.
>
> The 'helicopter is hard to fly' rumor is perpetuated
> by Spam-can Cessna drivers who are used to doing 50
> pound curls on the yoke for landing,
>
You have to experience them trying this in a (Chose your own docile trainer
glider type)from the back seat. I have on at one occasion run out of right arm
power and had to use both hands to get the stick forward...

Guy in the front was an experienced power instructor executing a 'normal' flare.

Note to self - Add item to list of briefing points when doing an intro for power
pilots.

[COLIN LAMB]

When I was getting certified in a Schweizer 300, I was curious about the
glide ratio during an autorotation. Accourding to the POH, the glide ratio
calculates out to something like 2.5 to one. I made up a spreadsheet, using
the airspeed and headwind. Practicing autorotations, I could never achieve
the calculated glide ratio. I took up an instructor up and he tried it, but
could not achieve it. We got about 1.75 to one, as I recall.

As the end of my testing, I concluded that helicopters are not very good
gliders. However, there is one similarity. One hand controls the descent
rate, and the spoilers in the glider are similar to the collective in the
helicopter.

I had trouble learning to hover properly in a helicopter. I was
overcontrolling. Finally, as I was driving over to the airfield to abuse
myself once again, I got something in my eye. When I got to the field, it
was still there. It hurt enough that I was almost in tears. I thought
about cancelling my instruction - but I had no time for another week, so
decided to go ahead. We went out to the practice field and I grabbed the
cyclic and collective as I usually did. My main concern was the pain in my
eye. Soon, the instructor said "your aircraft". The helicopter did not
move and hovered beautifully. After about 20 seconds, I figured the
instructor was continuing to fly it and I looked over and his hands were off
the controls. I was not consciously flying the helicopter, but it remained
fixed in space. From that point on, flying the helicopter was easy. I had
stopped thinking about the flying and controlled it by the sub-conscious.
Sort of like mind control.

Autorotations through the private license are not practiced power off. We
practiced them regularly and reduce the power to practice them, but then
pull in the power at about 3 feet. A full power off autorotation can damage
the helicopter - unless you are right on. My instructor did it once with
me - but only into a headwind.

Landing on a tall building in the middle of the night in a helicopter is
something that must be experienced to be appreciated.

Colin

[Chuck Griswold[_1_]]

KEEP THE BIG NUT TIGHT!!
Chuck
At 14:30 27 June 2007, Colin Lamb wrote:
>When I was getting certified in a Schweizer 300, I
>was curious about
the
>glide ratio during an autorotation. Accourding to
>the POH, the glide
ratio
>calculates out to something like 2.5 to one. I made
>up a spreadsheet,
using
>the airspeed and headwind. Practicing autorotations,
>I could never
achieve
>the calculated glide ratio. I took up an instructor
>up and he tried it, but
>could not achieve it. We got about 1.75 to one, as
>I recall.
>
>As the end of my testing, I concluded that helicopters
>are not very good
>gliders. However, there is one similarity. One hand
>controls the
descent
>rate, and the spoilers in the glider are similar to
>the collective in the
>helicopter.
>
>I had trouble learning to hover properly in a helicopter.
> I was
>overcontrolling. Finally, as I was driving over to
>the airfield to abuse
>myself once again, I got something in my eye. When
>I got to the field,
it
>was still there. It hurt enough that I was almost
>in tears. I thought
>about cancelling my instruction - but I had no time
>for another week,
so
>decided to go ahead. We went out to the practice field
>and I grabbed
the
>cyclic and collective as I usually did. My main concern
>was the pain in
my
>eye. Soon, the instructor said 'your aircraft'. The
>helicopter did not
>move and hovered beautifully. After about 20 seconds,
>I figured the
>instructor was continuing to fly it and I looked over
>and his hands were
off
>the controls. I was not consciously flying the helicopter,
>but it
remained
>fixed in space. From that point on, flying the helicopter
>was easy. I
had
>stopped thinking about the flying and controlled it
>by the sub-conscious.
>Sort of like mind control.
>
>Autorotations through the private license are not practiced
>power off.
We
>practiced them regularly and reduce the power to practice
>them, but
then
>pull in the power at about 3 feet. A full power off
>autorotation can
damage
>the helicopter - unless you are right on. My instructor
>did it once with
>me - but only into a headwind.
>
>Landing on a tall building in the middle of the night
>in a helicopter is
>something that must be experienced to be appreciated.
>
>Colin
>
>
>

[bumper]

Didn't see a big nut on a friends Eurocopter EC120B. It might be there
though, just hidden by this Frisbee looking cover with a bunch of Hindu
looking symbols painted on the underside . . . prayer wheel??

bumper

"Chuck Griswold" > wrote in message
...
> KEEP THE BIG NUT TIGHT!!
> Chuck
> At 14:30 27 June 2007, Colin Lamb wrote:
>>When I was getting certified in a Schweizer 300, I
>>was curious about
> the
>>glide ratio during an autorotation. Accourding to
>>the POH, the glide
> ratio
>>calculates out to something like 2.5 to one. I made
>>up a spreadsheet,
> using
>>the airspeed and headwind. Practicing autorotations,
>>I could never
> achieve
>>the calculated glide ratio. I took up an instructor
>>up and he tried it, but
>>could not achieve it. We got about 1.75 to one, as
>>I recall.
>>
>>As the end of my testing, I concluded that helicopters
>>are not very good
>>gliders. However, there is one similarity. One hand
>>controls the
> descent
>>rate, and the spoilers in the glider are similar to
>>the collective in the
>>helicopter.
>>
>>I had trouble learning to hover properly in a helicopter.
>> I was
>>overcontrolling. Finally, as I was driving over to
>>the airfield to abuse
>>myself once again, I got something in my eye. When
>>I got to the field,
> it
>>was still there. It hurt enough that I was almost
>>in tears. I thought
>>about cancelling my instruction - but I had no time
>>for another week,
> so
>>decided to go ahead. We went out to the practice field
>>and I grabbed
> the
>>cyclic and collective as I usually did. My main concern
>>was the pain in
> my
>>eye. Soon, the instructor said 'your aircraft'. The
>>helicopter did not
>>move and hovered beautifully. After about 20 seconds,
>>I figured the
>>instructor was continuing to fly it and I looked over
>>and his hands were
> off
>>the controls. I was not consciously flying the helicopter,
>>but it
> remained
>>fixed in space. From that point on, flying the helicopter
>>was easy. I
> had
>>stopped thinking about the flying and controlled it
>>by the sub-conscious.
>>Sort of like mind control.
>>
>>Autorotations through the private license are not practiced
>>power off.
> We
>>practiced them regularly and reduce the power to practice
>>them, but
> then
>>pull in the power at about 3 feet. A full power off
>>autorotation can
> damage
>>the helicopter - unless you are right on. My instructor
>>did it once with
>>me - but only into a headwind.
>>
>>Landing on a tall building in the middle of the night
>>in a helicopter is
>>something that must be experienced to be appreciated.
>>
>>Colin
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>