Hidden costs of ethenol [Archive]

Stella Starr

June 26th 07, 05:19 AM

cavelamb himself wrote:
> I am remimded of a quote that said, "when otherwise intelligent people
> do stupid stuff, there is usually politics involved".
>
> So not only do we pay more for less power in out auto fuel...
>
>
> http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/06/25/cost-of-milk-kicked-up-by-demand-for-ethanol
>

It's spelled ethanol, not ethenol, babe. Dang non media types, no copy
editing. (tongue-in-cheek mode into low gear)

And while it's true that corn's up a good deal from its 2000 price of
$1.95 a bushel, it's also true that in 1950 corn cost... $2.00 a bushel.

The cost of the corn in a bag of Doritos is 2 cents, so folks howling
about its effect on other consumer products are crying wolf, dear. We
pay less of our income for food than any other consumers on earth and
nobody I've seen lately is in any danger of starving.

Let them brew up their corn ethanol for another year or so until others
start making it out of weeds, leftover winegrapeskins, and other crap
and the Midwestern plants are standing empty. When the price of corn
goes back down to two bucks a bushel once again, don't hold your breath
waiting for cheaper Doritos...that's not the way the system works.

Of course by then we'll "win" the "war" in Iraq and gas will be real
cheap again.

[email protected]

June 26th 07, 06:06 AM

On Jun 25, 9:19 pm, Stella Starr > wrote:
> cavelamb himself wrote:
> > I am remimded of a quote that said, "when otherwise intelligent people
> > do stupid stuff, there is usually politics involved".

>
> It's spelled ethanol, not ethenol, babe. Dang non media types, no copy
> editing. (tongue-in-cheek mode into low gear)
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It doesn't matter how he spells it, it's still a scam. Were it not
for ADM's lobbyists and massive subsidies provided by your tax
dollars, the whole idea of diluting gasoline with alcohol would fall
flat on its face.

-R.S.Hoover

Roger (K8RI)

June 26th 07, 06:31 AM

On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:19:36 -0700, Stella Starr >
wrote:

>cavelamb himself wrote:
>> I am remimded of a quote that said, "when otherwise intelligent people
>> do stupid stuff, there is usually politics involved".
>>
>> So not only do we pay more for less power in out auto fuel...
>>
>>
>> http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/06/25/cost-of-milk-kicked-up-by-demand-for-ethanol
>>
>
>It's spelled ethanol, not ethenol, babe. Dang non media types, no copy
>editing. (tongue-in-cheek mode into low gear)
>
>And while it's true that corn's up a good deal from its 2000 price of
>$1.95 a bushel, it's also true that in 1950 corn cost... $2.00 a bushel.
>
>The cost of the corn in a bag of Doritos is 2 cents, so folks howling

The cost of corn in the bag may be two cents, but if the cost of corn
doubles the cost of the Doritos will go up a lot more than another 2
cents. More than likely they will go up by a good 50% even though
about half the cost of them like soft drinks is in the packaging and
handling.

>about its effect on other consumer products are crying wolf, dear. We
>pay less of our income for food than any other consumers on earth and
>nobody I've seen lately is in any danger of starving.
>
>Let them brew up their corn ethanol for another year or so until others
>start making it out of weeds, leftover winegrapeskins, and other crap
>and the Midwestern plants are standing empty. When the price of corn
>goes back down to two bucks a bushel once again, don't hold your breath
>waiting for cheaper Doritos...that's not the way the system works.
>
>Of course by then we'll "win" the "war" in Iraq and gas will be real
>cheap again.

Ahhhh...you forgot the sarcasm mode on switch <:-))

Lou

June 26th 07, 11:53 AM

Has anyone figured this out yet? Even if 1 half of all americans
change over
to e-85 ethanal fuel, there isn't enough farm land to produce the corn
that
will be needed. We will once again be looking to an imported fuel
base.
Lou

Maxwell

June 26th 07, 01:19 PM

"Lou" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Has anyone figured this out yet? Even if 1 half of all americans
> change over
> to e-85 ethanal fuel, there isn't enough farm land to produce the corn
> that
> will be needed. We will once again be looking to an imported fuel
> base.
> Lou
>

That's what the "so called" experts claim, but I sure see a lot of farm land
that's not growing anything weeds.

I guess we would all have the right to complain, that increased corn
production would decrease our available assets for emergency landings.

Rob Turk

June 26th 07, 01:57 PM

"Lou" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Has anyone figured this out yet? Even if 1 half of all americans
> change over
> to e-85 ethanal fuel, there isn't enough farm land to produce the corn
> that
> will be needed. We will once again be looking to an imported fuel
> base.
> Lou

As in everything with a balance, there are two options:
1. Produce more
2. Use less

Considering the world rank of the USA on energy consumption, I'd focus on #2

Rob

Roger (K8RI)

June 26th 07, 03:27 PM

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:53:23 -0700, Lou > wrote:

>Has anyone figured this out yet? Even if 1 half of all americans
>change over
>to e-85 ethanal fuel, there isn't enough farm land to produce the corn
>that
>will be needed. We will once again be looking to an imported fuel
>base.

It's been publicized but apparently our congress critters missed that.
Even with higher yields of corn and in production we don't have enough
total farm land available to grow enough corn to produce enough
alcohol to support a major switch to alcohol as a fuel. That's the
main reason they talk about switch grass and bio generation of
alcohol. However the Canadian's have it right using hemp which is
easy to grow and gives a much higher yield of Alcohol while consuming
much less energy to grow and process. Again, our government has a
hangup with the word hemp, associating all hemp with the recreational
stuff.
BTW, we already have a 50 cent per gallon tariff on imported ethanol
while we are subsidizing the growing of corn and alcohol processing
plants.

> Lou

quietguy

June 26th 07, 04:13 PM

David Deutsch, Jimmy Carter's Undersecretary of Energy (let's see the
tree-huggers impeach THAT source!), has calculated that ethanol in
gasoline is costing consumers $120 for every barrel of oil it
replaces; with crude selling for under $70 per barrel the only people
smiling about this are the corn growers, the ethanol producers, the
politicians they've bought and people dumb enough to believe just
about anything. I live in Iowa and I'm seeing close-up the ignorant
boosterism that's behind this economically unsustainable scheme.

cavelamb himself

June 26th 07, 05:54 PM

Stella Starr wrote:

> It's spelled ethanol, not ethenol, babe. Dang non media types, no copy
> editing. (tongue-in-cheek mode into low gear)

Ya got me again, beautiful.

My software doesn't spell check the subject line - and after 9pm I can't
spell worth a darn.

Oh well, so much for fame and fortune...

Richard

william

June 27th 07, 12:09 PM

One point to consider when you complain about the price of corn is, $2.00
corn cannot be produced without taxpayer funded price supports, This morning
we could contract corn for December 07' delivery at $3.38 and you can cut
about 30 cents off that for various quality discounts. A farmer is not
getting rich on $3 corn with the much higher input cost we have had in the
past few years. Actually he still needs good weather and careful managment
to make anything. Bottom line, corn is still going to cost the consumer
either at the store or in taxes.
Second point, it was never planned to replace gasoline, just one of many
alternate energy sources and none of them are cheap. The days of cheap
energy are gone and anything that uses energy is going to cost more in the
future including food. I'm afraid food prices are just starting to go up and
will continue so.

"cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
k.net...
>I am remimded of a quote that said, "when otherwise intelligent people
> do stupid stuff, there is usually politics involved".
>
> So not only do we pay more for less power in out auto fuel...
>
>
> http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/06/25/cost-of-milk-kicked-up-by-demand-for-ethanol

cavelamb himself

June 27th 07, 05:22 PM

william wrote:
<snip>
> I'm afraid food prices are just starting to go up and
> will continue so.
>

That really is the point I was reaching for.
Not just complaining about corn.

And as oil prices continue to rise we are going to be faced with some
difficult times and hard choices (like DRIVING to Osh?).

I mean, it's not just gasoline that is increasing, but everything that
is made from it, made with it, or transported.

And THAT includes just about everything.

So I'm really curious...
What comes next?

Richard

> "cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>
>>I am remimded of a quote that said, "when otherwise intelligent people
>>do stupid stuff, there is usually politics involved".
>>
>>So not only do we pay more for less power in our auto fuel...
>>
>>
>>http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/06/25/cost-of-milk-kicked-up-by-demand-for-ethanol
>
>
>

Bill Daniels

June 27th 07, 07:05 PM

1. I had a guy walk up to me at the glider field and say, "I just put $300
worth of fuel in my C-182". "What does it cost to be a glider pilot?" (A
whole lot less, I told him)

2. I bought an old motorcycle that can replace 75% of my driving. It gets
55 MPG city driving.

3. I'm strongly advocating winch launch for gliders. ($5 launch = 5 hour
flight)

Obviously, gliders aren't an option if you need A to B transportation. But,
if you just fly for fun, gliders are a lot of fun for a lot less money.

Bill Daniels

"cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
k.net...
> william wrote:

> So I'm really curious...
> What comes next?
>
>
> Richard

Ken Finney

June 27th 07, 08:03 PM

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
. ..
> 1. I had a guy walk up to me at the glider field and say, "I just put $300
> worth of fuel in my C-182". "What does it cost to be a glider pilot?" (A
> whole lot less, I told him)
>
> 2. I bought an old motorcycle that can replace 75% of my driving. It gets
> 55 MPG city driving.
>
> 3. I'm strongly advocating winch launch for gliders. ($5 launch = 5 hour
> flight)
>
> Obviously, gliders aren't an option if you need A to B transportation.
> But, if you just fly for fun, gliders are a lot of fun for a lot less
> money.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>
> "cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>> william wrote:
>
>> So I'm really curious...
>> What comes next?
>>
>>
>> Richard
>
>

And as a certain vocal critic of SP/LSA always points out, with a motor
glider, you have almost all (maybe all?) the advantages of SP/LSA, with none
of the disadvantages.

Peter Dohm

June 27th 07, 08:14 PM

"cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
k.net...
> william wrote:
> <snip>
> > I'm afraid food prices are just starting to go up and
> > will continue so.
> >
>
> That really is the point I was reaching for.
> Not just complaining about corn.
>
> And as oil prices continue to rise we are going to be faced with some
> difficult times and hard choices (like DRIVING to Osh?).
>
> I mean, it's not just gasoline that is increasing, but everything that
> is made from it, made with it, or transported.
>
> And THAT includes just about everything.
>
> So I'm really curious...
> What comes next?
>
>
> Richard
>
As you pointed out: Just about everything.

IIRC, after the previous big increases in crude oil prices, we had several
years of high inflation in just about everything that wasn't already way up.
In my area, housing prices are already way up, so it's possible that houses
will be relatively flat while everything else, including rent, catches up
with fuel and real estate. Dunno, just a guess.

Of course, it takes until the end of current contracts for a lot of things
to happen so it will all take a while, as it always has...

Peter :-(

Peter Dohm

June 27th 07, 08:36 PM

> >
> >> So I'm really curious...
> >> What comes next?
> >>
> >>
> >> Richard
> >
> >
>
> And as a certain vocal critic of SP/LSA always points out, with a motor
> glider, you have almost all (maybe all?) the advantages of SP/LSA, with
none
> of the disadvantages.
>
>
>
An interesting point. Of course, I'm having an attack of "Sometimer's
Desease" and can't recall the subject line of the thread in which he
expounded the rationale...

Peter

william

June 27th 07, 08:49 PM

One more thing I would like to point out on the corn- food-ethanol debate is
that making ethanol uses only the starch in corn. The protein is still there
and is used as a high quality feed, called dried distillers grains or DDG.
It is mostly feed to cattle. The most effecient ethanol plants have a feed
lot next to them and the solids are feed wet to the cattle saving the energy
usually used to dry the stuff. The cattle manure is used as a source of
methane for energy to run the ethanol plant. It still requires additional
energy, but every savings helps. There are other byproducts of the process
to, but my point is a lot of the corn still is used as food. The main study
the media likes to quote to discredit ethanol was done about 20 years ago
and is hopelessly out of date.

"william" > wrote in message
news:Ezrgi.2194$s%.324@trnddc02...
> One point to consider when you complain about the price of corn is, $2.00
> corn cannot be produced without taxpayer funded price supports, This
> morning we could contract corn for December 07' delivery at $3.38 and you
> can cut about 30 cents off that for various quality discounts. A farmer is
> not getting rich on $3 corn with the much higher input cost we have had in
> the past few years. Actually he still needs good weather and careful
> managment to make anything. Bottom line, corn is still going to cost the
> consumer either at the store or in taxes.
> Second point, it was never planned to replace gasoline, just one of many
> alternate energy sources and none of them are cheap. The days of cheap
> energy are gone and anything that uses energy is going to cost more in the
> future including food. I'm afraid food prices are just starting to go up
> and will continue so.
>
> "cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>>I am remimded of a quote that said, "when otherwise intelligent people
>> do stupid stuff, there is usually politics involved".
>>
>> So not only do we pay more for less power in out auto fuel...
>>
>>
>> http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/06/25/cost-of-milk-kicked-up-by-demand-for-ethanol
>
>

clare at snyder.on.ca

June 28th 07, 12:09 AM

Blueskies

June 28th 07, 01:20 AM

"cavelamb himself" > wrote in message k.net...
> william wrote:
> <snip>
>> I'm afraid food prices are just starting to go up and will continue so.
>>
>
> That really is the point I was reaching for.
> Not just complaining about corn.
>
> And as oil prices continue to rise we are going to be faced with some
> difficult times and hard choices (like DRIVING to Osh?).
>
> I mean, it's not just gasoline that is increasing, but everything that
> is made from it, made with it, or transported.
>
> And THAT includes just about everything.
>
> So I'm really curious...
> What comes next?
>
>
> Richard
>

It is not gasoline at the auto fuel pumps anymore; it is gasohol! The false labeling needs to stop. It seems that
everyone I say this to says, no, they have to label the pump, and I then correct them and tell them the requirement was
dropped by congress in 2005. They are getting lower energy fuel in the name of 'gasoline.' Most are initially somewhat
shocked, but then they fall back into their consumer mode and just keep on keeping on. Amazing there is not total
outrage about this issue...

Blueskies

June 28th 07, 01:21 AM

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message . ..
> 1. I had a guy walk up to me at the glider field and say, "I just put $300 worth of fuel in my C-182". "What does it
> cost to be a glider pilot?" (A whole lot less, I told him)
>
> 2. I bought an old motorcycle that can replace 75% of my driving. It gets 55 MPG city driving.
>
> 3. I'm strongly advocating winch launch for gliders. ($5 launch = 5 hour flight)
>
> Obviously, gliders aren't an option if you need A to B transportation. But, if you just fly for fun, gliders are a
> lot of fun for a lot less money.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>

5 hour glider flight off a $5 winch launch? Where are you and how long is the winch line?

Blueskies

June 28th 07, 01:24 AM

<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message ...
>>
>
> And in North america, virtually everything you eat, and much of what
> you buy otherwise, has corn in it in one form or an other. Corn
> starch, corn syrup etc. Using corn to make ethanol for fuel drives the
> price of everything else made with corn up, as well as everything that
> is an option to use in place of corn. A cousin works for a large
> multinational cookie manufacturer. Over the last several months, the
> ingredient costs have gone up 30%, mostly corn sweetener pricing, but
> a lot of other stuff too, attributed to CORN PRICING.
>

And don't forget OIL makes the fertilizer in most cases. The 'food chain' in the USA is pretty much oil, corn (or soy),
cattle, mcdonalds...

Blueskies

June 28th 07, 01:25 AM

"william" > wrote in message news:fbzgi.11573$xy.11256@trnddc06...
> One more thing I would like to point out on the corn- food-ethanol debate is that making ethanol uses only the starch
> in corn. The protein is still there and is used as a high quality feed, called dried distillers grains or DDG. It is
> mostly feed to cattle. The most effecient ethanol plants have a feed lot next to them and the solids are feed wet to
> the cattle saving the energy usually used to dry the stuff. The cattle manure is used as a source of methane for
> energy to run the ethanol plant. It still requires additional energy, but every savings helps. There are other
> byproducts of the process to, but my point is a lot of the corn still is used as food. The main study the media likes
> to quote to discredit ethanol was done about 20 years ago and is hopelessly out of date.
>

It is hopeless alright...

Roger (K8RI)

June 28th 07, 01:44 AM

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:22:58 GMT, cavelamb himself
> wrote:

>william wrote:
> <snip>
>> I'm afraid food prices are just starting to go up and
>> will continue so.
>>
>
>That really is the point I was reaching for.
>Not just complaining about corn.
>
>And as oil prices continue to rise we are going to be faced with some
>difficult times and hard choices (like DRIVING to Osh?).
>
>I mean, it's not just gasoline that is increasing, but everything that
>is made from it, made with it, or transported.
>
>And THAT includes just about everything.
>
>So I'm really curious...
> What comes next?

BUT as the use of alternative fuels becomes wide spread we will use
less crude and the price will go down. BUT if we are sustaining that
lower gas consumption then the refineries will not produce as much
which will force the price back up. Also as production drops below the
max output for a refinery the efficiency goes down making it more
expensive to produce a gallon of gas which forces the price up.

I would expect the production of gas to be reduced (supply and demand)
to the point where it keeps pace with the price of the fuels replacing
it. However this will force the price of crude down and I would expect
the price of crude to drop considerably which will make the oil
exporting states unhappy so they are likely to reduce production. BUT
although this could raise the price of crude they will be selling far
less of the stuff.

As an interesting side note, if you calculate how much crude is used
to produce fuel for cars and truck, see how much is imported, and then
look at increasing fuel efficiency in cars and trucks we only need to
raise the overall fleet MPG from the current 20.5 (roughly) to about
27 we would be saving more crude than we import. That is unlikely to
happen, but it's still an interesting figure.

In reality we'd still be importing a substantial amount of crude, but
we'd no longer be dependent on having to import it. That *should* mean
a lower price for crude that could be used for things other than gas
and that still takes a lot of crude.

So, it's not a given that everything would *have* to go up in price
but It doesn't mean it wouldn't

For one I would expect those production methods that are less
expensive and more profitable would probably *eventually* replace
the bulk of corn used in the production of ethanol which would result
in one whale of a political battle.

As I've mentioned before, using hemp we could produce more alcohol at
far less cost than using corn. It's also a much more robust crop, that
can grow under widely varying conditions unlike corn. it can also be
grown on land unsuitable for most other crops thus taking less land
out of the food production chain.

To the farmer soybeans, navy beans, wheat, and sugar beets are far
more profitable than raising corn. They are also no where near as hard
on the soil.OTOH navy beans and even beets are quite dependent on the
growing conditions. Of course I'd hate to be trying to raise much of
anything down in Georgia this year. Then there's Texas and the
surrounding states suffering from too much of a good thing but the
drought is certainly over...for the time being.

>
>
>Richard
>
>> "cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
>> k.net...
>>
>>>I am remimded of a quote that said, "when otherwise intelligent people
>>>do stupid stuff, there is usually politics involved".
>>>
>>>So not only do we pay more for less power in our auto fuel...
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/06/25/cost-of-milk-kicked-up-by-demand-for-ethanol
>>
>>
>>

Bill Daniels

June 28th 07, 02:14 AM

"Blueskies" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
> . ..
>> 1. I had a guy walk up to me at the glider field and say, "I just put
>> $300 worth of fuel in my C-182". "What does it cost to be a glider
>> pilot?" (A whole lot less, I told him)
>>
>> 2. I bought an old motorcycle that can replace 75% of my driving. It
>> gets 55 MPG city driving.
>>
>> 3. I'm strongly advocating winch launch for gliders. ($5 launch = 5 hour
>> flight)
>>
>> Obviously, gliders aren't an option if you need A to B transportation.
>> But, if you just fly for fun, gliders are a lot of fun for a lot less
>> money.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>>
>>
>
> 5 hour glider flight off a $5 winch launch? Where are you and how long is
> the winch line?

A winch will launch a glider to about half the length of the winch line.
The winch launch gets you high enough to catch thermals. Then, in the
western US, you soar to 18,000. 5 hours can be conservative. Some flights
last over 10 hours.

In Germany, they are winch launching gliders almost a mile straight up so
they can practice aerobatics.
Beside being cheap, winch launches are a hoot. Think zero to sixty in less
than 3 seconds and then a 45 degree climb at 3000 - 5000 FPM.

If you want video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbRBiPuTjYQ (Somewhat
nervious passerger.)
Girlfriend gets a ride: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wttC39IZ9P4
and: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wttC39IZ9P4

I'm not German nor do I speak it - they just make the best videos.

Bill Daniels

cavelamb himself

June 28th 07, 03:03 AM

Blueskies wrote:

> Amazing there is not total
> outrage about this issue...
>

That IS why I brought it up - twice now.

Gotta start somewhere and this the about the most technically
literate news group on the net.

Richard

Peter Dohm

June 28th 07, 03:09 AM

"cavelamb himself" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Blueskies wrote:
>
> > Amazing there is not total
> > outrage about this issue...
> >
>
>
> That IS why I brought it up - twice now.
>
> Gotta start somewhere and this the about the most technically
> literate news group on the net.
>
>
> Richard

Very good point!

Peter

Denny

June 28th 07, 12:56 PM

>
> It is hopeless alright...

Not to worry! The coming market correction will render large segments
of the population incapable of buying gasohol... That alone will
reduce our energy imbalance <there is always a silver lining>...

denny

cavelamb himself

June 28th 07, 07:56 PM

Roger (K8RI) wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:53:23 -0700, Lou > wrote:
>
>
>>Has anyone figured this out yet? Even if 1 half of all americans
>>change over
>>to e-85 ethanal fuel, there isn't enough farm land to produce the corn
>>that
>>will be needed. We will once again be looking to an imported fuel
>>base.
>
>
> It's been publicized but apparently our congress critters missed that.
> Even with higher yields of corn and in production we don't have enough
> total farm land available to grow enough corn to produce enough
> alcohol to support a major switch to alcohol as a fuel. That's the
> main reason they talk about switch grass and bio generation of
> alcohol. However the Canadian's have it right using hemp which is
> easy to grow and gives a much higher yield of Alcohol while consuming
> much less energy to grow and process. Again, our government has a
> hangup with the word hemp, associating all hemp with the recreational
> stuff.
> BTW, we already have a 50 cent per gallon tariff on imported ethanol
> while we are subsidizing the growing of corn and alcohol processing
> plants.
>
>
>> Lou

http://www.gulfethanolcorp.com/gulf_ethanol_investors.htm

Less than two years ago the price of standard crude oil was less than
$25 per barrel. By April 21 of 2006, it reached a record of $75.35 per
barrel. And given the mounting tensions in Iraq, Iran, and Venezuela,
multiplied by the ever increasing world demand, there’s no indication
that this strain will be eased any time in the near future.

Strap on your seatbelt... an alternative energy is about to take the
world by storm.

“Just as the events of 9-11 changed how we guard our cities and protect
ourselves, a new generation of ethanol may soon change the way we gas up
our cars and protect the earth.” - Dateline NBC

"Our plan to expand into ethanol production has the potential to
generate significant profits and increased shareholder values," JT
Cloud, CEO of Gulf Ethanol.

Take a look at recent investments made by some of the richest and most
successful people in the world:

* Bill Gates, the richest man in America, allocated $84 million
into Pacific Ethanol, Inc.
* Sir Richard Branson, chairman of the Virgin Group and worth an
estimated $3 billion, has plans to invest $300 to $400 million to
produce and market this promising alternative fuel. He says, “This is
the win-win fuel of the future.”
* Vinod Khosla, “guru” of Silicon Valley, co-founder of Sun
Microsystems, and one of ethanol’s most vocal advocates, has invested
millions of his own dollars in private companies involved in the
development of ethanol.

* What’s more, industry titans are recognizing the value of
providing the American public with an alternative. Wal-Mart announced
that it is considering offering corn-based ethanol at its 383 gas
stations throughout the U.S.
* Not to be left behind, several Big Oil companies, including Shell
and Exxon Mobil, are funding ethanol research.

A booming industry, to be sure! It will only get bigger from here…

Factors Driving Alternative Energy Investments

* FREEDOM FROM FOREIGN OIL: Ethanol could free America from its
reluctant dependence on foreign oil. This is not a pipedream, conjured
up by some pro-U.S. idealists. Not at all. Brazil has turned that vision
into reality, where 70% of the vehicles in that country are sustained on
ethanol. Brazil's ethanol plan has successfully replaced imported oil
worth an estimated $120 billion. To put it into perspective, this would
translate to a savings of about $2 trillion for an economy equivalent in
size to the U.S.
* INCREASED INCOME TO U.S. FARMERS: In terms of economics, there is
no clearer choice for the American public. It would mean higher farm
incomes and we would see a steep increase in rural employment.
* THE TECHNOLOGY’S IN PLACE NOW: The technology to run cars on
ethanol already exists. General Motors alone has built more than 1.5
million ethanol-compliant vehicles.
* IT’S RIDING THE “GREEN WAVE”: And let’s not ignore the fact that
ethanol is believed to be much more environmentally friendly than our
current petroleum. Many experts agree that a switch from gasoline to
ethanol could significantly reduce our carbon dioxide emissions, some
say by as much as 80%. Ethanol’s appeal extends throughout interest
groups. The U.S. government, American car manufacturers,
environmentalists and the agriculture industry are all strong supporters
of this alternative fuel.

Blueskies

June 29th 07, 01:15 AM

"cavelamb himself" > wrote in message nk.net...

> Less than two years ago the price of standard crude oil was less than $25 per barrel. By April 21 of 2006, it reached
> a record of $75.35 per barrel. And given the mounting tensions in Iraq, Iran, and Venezuela, multiplied by the ever
> increasing world demand, there’s no indication that this strain will be eased any time in the near future.
>
> Strap on your seatbelt... an alternative energy is about to take the world by storm.
>

I have no problems with ethanol, I just have a problem with 'the industry's trying to pawn off ethanol laced gasoline as
'gasoline'...

Blueskies

June 29th 07, 01:18 AM

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message . ..
>>
>> 5 hour glider flight off a $5 winch launch? Where are you and how long is the winch line?
>
>
> A winch will launch a glider to about half the length of the winch line. The winch launch gets you high enough to
> catch thermals. Then, in the western US, you soar to 18,000. 5 hours can be conservative. Some flights last over 10
> hours.
>
> In Germany, they are winch launching gliders almost a mile straight up so they can practice aerobatics.
> Beside being cheap, winch launches are a hoot. Think zero to sixty in less than 3 seconds and then a 45 degree climb
> at 3000 - 5000 FPM.
>
> If you want video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbRBiPuTjYQ (Somewhat nervious passerger.)
> Girlfriend gets a ride: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wttC39IZ9P4
> and: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wttC39IZ9P4
>
> I'm not German nor do I speak it - they just make the best videos.
>
> Bill Daniels
>

I know Torry Pines will (or used to) launch you right over the cliffs so you could ridge soar, but I am now in MI, and
it would take a pretty long winch to get high enough to fly around for 5 hours...

Bill Daniels

June 29th 07, 01:46 AM

"Blueskies" > wrote in message
et...
>
> "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
> . ..
>>>
>>> 5 hour glider flight off a $5 winch launch? Where are you and how long
>>> is the winch line?
>>
>>
>> A winch will launch a glider to about half the length of the winch line.
>> The winch launch gets you high enough to catch thermals. Then, in the
>> western US, you soar to 18,000. 5 hours can be conservative. Some
>> flights last over 10 hours.
>>
>> In Germany, they are winch launching gliders almost a mile straight up so
>> they can practice aerobatics.
>> Beside being cheap, winch launches are a hoot. Think zero to sixty in
>> less than 3 seconds and then a 45 degree climb at 3000 - 5000 FPM.
>>
>> If you want video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbRBiPuTjYQ (Somewhat
>> nervious passerger.)
>> Girlfriend gets a ride: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wttC39IZ9P4
>> and: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wttC39IZ9P4
>>
>> I'm not German nor do I speak it - they just make the best videos.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>>
>
> I know Torry Pines will (or used to) launch you right over the cliffs so
> you could ridge soar, but I am now in MI, and it would take a pretty long
> winch to get high enough to fly around for 5 hours...
>

Torrey Pines still operates a few weekends in the Spring.

Michigan would be tough. However, I'm told there are thermals there -
sometimes good ones. Today, most winch operations soar with thermals and
not ridge lift although nobody would turn down ridge lift. Once you contact
thermal lift, you can usually count on several hours of flight.

From looking at several aero tow operations, most tows are to less then 2500
feet AGL. Winches can easilly match that at much lower cost.

Bill Daniels

Roger (K8RI)

June 29th 07, 04:19 AM

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 00:18:07 GMT, "Blueskies"
> wrote:

>
>"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message . ..
>>>
>>> 5 hour glider flight off a $5 winch launch? Where are you and how long is the winch line?
>>
>>
>> A winch will launch a glider to about half the length of the winch line. The winch launch gets you high enough to
>> catch thermals. Then, in the western US, you soar to 18,000. 5 hours can be conservative. Some flights last over 10
>> hours.
>>
>> In Germany, they are winch launching gliders almost a mile straight up so they can practice aerobatics.
>> Beside being cheap, winch launches are a hoot. Think zero to sixty in less than 3 seconds and then a 45 degree climb
>> at 3000 - 5000 FPM.
>>
>> If you want video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbRBiPuTjYQ (Somewhat nervious passerger.)
>> Girlfriend gets a ride: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wttC39IZ9P4
>> and: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wttC39IZ9P4
>>
>> I'm not German nor do I speak it - they just make the best videos.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>>
>
>I know Torry Pines will (or used to) launch you right over the cliffs so you could ridge soar, but I am now in MI, and
>it would take a pretty long winch to get high enough to fly around for 5 hours...

You just need the proper day.

Go take a look at the land around MPL. It's flat for miles. They used
a truck tow to launch two hand gliders that stayed alonft for
something like 10 hours and as I recall they landed some where over in
central Ontario. A week ago at 3BS we launched a sail plane (tow to
1000 feet, but 500 would have been suficient) he was up for about 45
minutes, but could have stayed up all afternoon.

>

Roger (K8RI)

June 29th 07, 05:15 AM

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:56:46 GMT, cavelamb himself
> wrote:

<snip>
>
>“Just as the events of 9-11 changed how we guard our cities and protect
>ourselves, a new generation of ethanol may soon change the way we gas up
>our cars and protect the earth.” - Dateline NBC
>
>"Our plan to expand into ethanol production has the potential to
>generate significant profits and increased shareholder values," JT
>Cloud, CEO of Gulf Ethanol.

That it does.
>
<snip>
>
>Factors Driving Alternative Energy Investments
>
> * FREEDOM FROM FOREIGN OIL: Ethanol could free America from its
>reluctant dependence on foreign oil. This is not a pipedream, conjured

it's doubtful we could make enough alcohol from corn to make more than
a small dent.However using all sources we probably could and becoming
independent of foreign oil is very important. It's also going to be
expensive.

>up by some pro-U.S. idealists. Not at all. Brazil has turned that vision
>into reality, where 70% of the vehicles in that country are sustained on

They are missing something very important here. Not all alcohol is
created equal, or rather at the same cost. The Key is Brazil does not
make alcohol from corn. They make it from sugar cane with has a much
higher yield than corn and costs far less to produce. Even with the
most optimistic approach providing alcohol from corn in the best
possible light at the lowest possible price, Brazilian alcohol would
still cost only a fraction of what it would cost us to produce corn
alcohol.

>ethanol. Brazil's ethanol plan has successfully replaced imported oil
>worth an estimated $120 billion. To put it into perspective, this would
>translate to a savings of about $2 trillion for an economy equivalent in
>size to the U.S.

How would it save anything for the consumer? The only thing it would
affect is the balance of payments or trade deficit IOW. Made from corn
the alcohol and gas containing it will cost more than straight gas
made from crude. Rephrased, moving to E85 or straight alcohol is going
to cost more, not less.Given that we are replacing something with
something else that costs more there is a problem with some one's
math.

The bottom line is the true cost of E85 and straight alcohol is more
expensive than the most expensive gas we've seen so far. Add to that
it only has 60% of the energy available of straight gas. So it costs
more and it takes more of it.

> * INCREASED INCOME TO U.S. FARMERS: In terms of economics, there is
>no clearer choice for the American public. It would mean higher farm

Yes it would mean higher farm income and that is something the smaller
farmers really do need.

>incomes and we would see a steep increase in rural employment.

Depends on what they mean by rural employment. It certainly would not
translate to much of an increase in the number of farm workers. It
would mean more workers in the alcohol industry and fewer in the
petroleum industry. I don't see any where it would bring a steep
increase in "rural" employment. Switching land from another crop to
corn isn't going to require more labor either.

> * THE TECHNOLOGY’S IN PLACE NOW: The technology to run cars on
>ethanol already exists. General Motors alone has built more than 1.5
>million ethanol-compliant vehicles.
The technology to produce the alcohol is in place, but the ability to
do so is not, at least as far as alcohol produced by corn in
quantities large enough to make much of a difference. Alcohol from
corn will have to be supplemented by alcohol from other sources which
will probably be capable of producing more alcohol at less cost than
that from corn, or at least eventually will be capable of doing so.
That means the use of corn for alcohol would not be nearly so
attractive unless artificially supported.

According to a recent AP story most of those "flex fuel" vehicles are
not designed to run long term on E85 or straight alcohol.

> * IT’S RIDING THE “GREEN WAVE”: And let’s not ignore the fact that
>ethanol is believed to be much more environmentally friendly than our

That is true.

>current petroleum. Many experts agree that a switch from gasoline to
>ethanol could significantly reduce our carbon dioxide emissions, some
>say by as much as 80%. Ethanol’s appeal extends throughout interest

It wouldn't really reduce the emissions from the cars, but what it
would do is be releasing CO2 than had been taken from the atmosphere
during the growing of the crop so it would not be adding *any* new
CO2. They are confusing emissions with "additional CO2 to the
atmosphere" and that is much more than just semantics.

Ethanol is (as far as we currently know) more environmentally friendly
to burn than gas. There are some outstanding questions, but in general
it is thought to be far better for the environment than gas.

>groups. The U.S. government, American car manufacturers,
>environmentalists and the agriculture industry are all strong supporters
>of this alternative fuel.

Roger (K8RI)

June 29th 07, 05:16 AM

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 04:56:04 -0700, Denny > wrote:

>
>>
>> It is hopeless alright...
>
>
>Not to worry! The coming market correction will render large segments
>of the population incapable of buying gasohol... That alone will
>reduce our energy imbalance <there is always a silver lining>...

Man, you're about as pessimistic as my doctor! <:-)) You must be
related.

>
>denny
>

RST Engineering

June 29th 07, 05:23 AM

Not only that, but you get Black's Beach at no additional cost.

Jim

--
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in
a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, with chocolate in one hand and wine in
the other, loudly proclaiming 'WOO HOO What a Ride!'"
--Unknown

Blueskies" > wrote in message
et...

> I know Torry Pines will (or used to) launch you right over the cliffs so
> you could ridge soar, but I am now in MI, and it would take a pretty long
> winch to get high enough to fly around for 5 hours...
>

Denny

June 29th 07, 12:28 PM

Roger, an unsolved issue with alcohol is that smog is produced... I
have not done the reading to see what the solution to that is <likely
some form of catalytic convertor> so I'm not going to claim it is a
deal breaker, but it is significant...

For the ethanol lovers, I am not against ethanol just against muddy
thinking...
TO get ethanol for vehicles you:
*haul seed and supplies
*plow
*spray pesticides and herbicides
*fertilize
*plant
grow awhile
*knife in nitrogen
grow a bit more
*herbicides / pesticides again
grow awhile more
*harvest
*haul
ferment
*distill
*haul it again
mix with gasoline, or whatever hybrid fuel you make
*haul it again
and finally pump it onto your vehicle

Every step that has an asterisk uses fuel or chemicals or fertilizer
dependent upon petroleum...
The fuel of your grandchildren will be a hydrocarbon product made from
coal, not corn...

denny

Roger (K8RI)

June 29th 07, 05:37 PM

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 04:28:15 -0700, Denny > wrote:

>Roger, an unsolved issue with alcohol is that smog is produced... I
>have not done the reading to see what the solution to that is <likely
>some form of catalytic convertor> so I'm not going to claim it is a
>deal breaker, but it is significant...
>

My understanding is it is a great Ozone producer. I'm not sure how
that works our chemically...chem 111 and 112 were a long way back.

So as with the new energy efficient light bulbs which contain mercury
we are exchanging one pollution problem for another.

>For the ethanol lovers, I am not against ethanol just against muddy
>thinking...
>TO get ethanol for vehicles you:
>*haul seed and supplies
>*plow

Don't forget, disk, pack, and drag

>*spray pesticides and herbicides
>*fertilize
>*plant
> grow awhile
>*knife in nitrogen

Don't forget cultivating.

> grow a bit more
>*herbicides / pesticides again
> grow awhile more

Corn takes a lot out of the land. or rephrased, it's depletes the soil
and its success depends on a very narrow range of growing conditions.

>*harvest
>*haul
> ferment

Several handling/separation/pumping steps

>*distill
>*haul it again
> mix with gasoline, or whatever hybrid fuel you make
>*haul it again
>and finally pump it onto your vehicle
>
>Every step that has an asterisk uses fuel or chemicals or fertilizer
>dependent upon petroleum...
>The fuel of your grandchildren will be a hydrocarbon product made from
>coal, not corn...

For the optimistic, the current "net energy gain" for corn alcohol
_in-a-*good*_growing_year is about 33%. that means for the equivalent
of every two gallons invested we get 2.66 gallons out. Or IOW we
gained a whole 2/3 of a gallon. So we have a 33% gain, but that
doesn't take into account labor. When labor is added in the true price
of that corn alcohol is astronomical whether we pay for it directly at
the pump, or through subsidies to the grower and processor.

>
>denny

cavelamb himself

June 29th 07, 07:14 PM

RST Engineering wrote:

> Not only that, but you get Black's Beach at no additional cost.
>
> Jim
>

>Big Grin>

You got that right, Jim!

william

June 29th 07, 09:01 PM

Roger,
Most of the corn grown today is no-til. Some areas still plow due to soil
type or continuous corn crops, maybe you live in one of those areas. Under
no-til, it's fertilize, spray, plant, maybe apply more nitrogen, and
harvest. Plowing is very expensive and most farmers avoid it. No-til usually
does better anyway. The main fertilizer corn uses is nitrogen and most of
that production has shifted to areas where they have natural gas as a
by-product of oil production, but no pipe line or LNG to ship it. Otherwise
it would have been burned off or in some cases pumped back in the oil well
to help maintain pressure. I'm not sure all of that should be counted in the
energy equation. As for the labor part, I don't understand your point. The
farmer will still be around if he stops producing corn. He could idle his
equipment and land, get a desk job saving energy and other energy inputs,
but he is still going to use energy to live. I also don't think the farmer's
personal energy consumption should be counted in the conversion. One other
big energy input you did miss is irrigation, but very little corn is grown
under irrigation.

> wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 04:28:15 -0700, Denny > wrote:
>
>>Roger, an unsolved issue with alcohol is that smog is produced... I
>>have not done the reading to see what the solution to that is <likely
>>some form of catalytic convertor> so I'm not going to claim it is a
>>deal breaker, but it is significant...
>>
>
> My understanding is it is a great Ozone producer. I'm not sure how
> that works our chemically...chem 111 and 112 were a long way back.
>
> So as with the new energy efficient light bulbs which contain mercury
> we are exchanging one pollution problem for another.
>
>>For the ethanol lovers, I am not against ethanol just against muddy
>>thinking...
>>TO get ethanol for vehicles you:
>>*haul seed and supplies
>>*plow
>
> Don't forget, disk, pack, and drag
>
>>*spray pesticides and herbicides
>>*fertilize
>>*plant
>> grow awhile
>>*knife in nitrogen
>
> Don't forget cultivating.
>
>> grow a bit more
>>*herbicides / pesticides again
>> grow awhile more
>
> Corn takes a lot out of the land. or rephrased, it's depletes the soil
> and its success depends on a very narrow range of growing conditions.
>
>>*harvest
>>*haul
>> ferment
>
> Several handling/separation/pumping steps
>
>>*distill
>>*haul it again
>> mix with gasoline, or whatever hybrid fuel you make
>>*haul it again
>>and finally pump it onto your vehicle
>>
>>Every step that has an asterisk uses fuel or chemicals or fertilizer
>>dependent upon petroleum...
>>The fuel of your grandchildren will be a hydrocarbon product made from
>>coal, not corn...
>
> For the optimistic, the current "net energy gain" for corn alcohol
> _in-a-*good*_growing_year is about 33%. that means for the equivalent
> of every two gallons invested we get 2.66 gallons out. Or IOW we
> gained a whole 2/3 of a gallon. So we have a 33% gain, but that
> doesn't take into account labor. When labor is added in the true price
> of that corn alcohol is astronomical whether we pay for it directly at
> the pump, or through subsidies to the grower and processor.
>
>>
>>denny

Blueskies

June 30th 07, 01:08 AM

"Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in message ...
> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:56:46 GMT, cavelamb himself
> > wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
>>
>>"Just as the events of 9-11 changed how we guard our cities and protect
>>ourselves, a new generation of ethanol may soon change the way we gas up
>>our cars and protect the earth." - Dateline NBC
>>
>>"Our plan to expand into ethanol production has the potential to
>>generate significant profits and increased shareholder values," JT
>>Cloud, CEO of Gulf Ethanol.
>
> That it does.
>>
> <snip>
>>
>>Factors Driving Alternative Energy Investments
>>
>> * FREEDOM FROM FOREIGN OIL: Ethanol could free America from its
>>reluctant dependence on foreign oil. This is not a pipedream, conjured
>
> it's doubtful we could make enough alcohol from corn to make more than
> a small dent.However using all sources we probably could and becoming
> independent of foreign oil is very important. It's also going to be
> expensive.
>

Here is a reply I received back from our Senator here in Michigan:

"Thank you . . .

. . for contacting me about your opposition to the use of ethanol as fuel. I appreciate hearing your views.

I understand your concern that the increased use of corn fuel could contribute to higher corn prices. Corn ethanol is a
first step as we transition into cellulosic ethanol technology, which does not use corn, only agricultural waste
products, and converts them into fuel.

Ethanol is an important piece of the energy puzzle to improve national security; however I recognize that it will not
single-handedly replace gasoline. Congress will tackle these energy questions when it works on the new farm bill this
year, as well as other energy legislation. I will keep your views in mind when the Senate takes up legislation related
to alternative fuels.

Again, thank you for contacting me. Please do not hesitate to do so again if I can be of assistance to you or your
family.

Sincerely,

Debbie Stabenow

United States Senator

DS: il "

Blueskies

June 30th 07, 01:12 AM

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message ...
> Not only that, but you get Black's Beach at no additional cost.
>
> Jim
>
> --

How could I forget about that?

Denny

June 30th 07, 02:43 PM

>
> Sincerely,
>
> Debbie Stabenow
>
> United States Senator

Interestingly, Debbie is the kind of leftist, socialist, democrat I
love to hate... But she did vote against the Immigration scam, errrr
Bill - and I have to say I am shocked to see that she did... But, at
least she earned the oxygen she is burning for a change...

denny

Denny

July 2nd 07, 12:32 PM

On Jun 29, 12:16 am, "Roger (K8RI)" > wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 04:56:04 -0700, Denny > wrote:
>
> >> It is hopeless alright...
>
> >Not to worry! The coming market correction will render large segments
> >of the population incapable of buying gasohol... That alone will
> >reduce our energy imbalance <there is always a silver lining>...
>
> Man, you're about as pessimistic as my doctor! <:-)) You must be
> related.
>
>
>
>
>
> >denny- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Did you notice that the Clintons bailed out of the market, converting
some $25M into cash and CD's?
They are lawyers so just pay attention to what they are doing not what
they are saying <if their lips are movin', etc.>, ... Being the
ultimate insiders, they know something the peons don't..
I made my decision... Yeah, I may miss a good year for the market -
the year before an election traditionally being prime the pump time by
the congress - but then again, I may look like a genius a year from
now... We shall see...

CanalBuilder

July 2nd 07, 12:48 PM

Roger (K8RI) wrote:

> So as with the new energy efficient light bulbs which contain mercury
> we are exchanging one pollution problem for another.

Unfortunately burning fossil fuels (especially coal) releases mercury
into the atmosphere. So you're just changing the source and location of
the mercury.

cavelamb himself

July 2nd 07, 05:55 PM

Denny wrote:

> On Jun 29, 12:16 am, "Roger (K8RI)" > wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 04:56:04 -0700, Denny > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>It is hopeless alright...
>>
>>>Not to worry! The coming market correction will render large segments
>>>of the population incapable of buying gasohol... That alone will
>>>reduce our energy imbalance <there is always a silver lining>...
>>
>>Man, you're about as pessimistic as my doctor! <:-)) You must be
>>related.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>denny- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -
>
>
> Did you notice that the Clintons bailed out of the market, converting
> some $25M into cash and CD's?
> They are lawyers so just pay attention to what they are doing not what
> they are saying <if their lips are movin', etc.>, ... Being the
> ultimate insiders, they know something the peons don't..
> I made my decision... Yeah, I may miss a good year for the market -
> the year before an election traditionally being prime the pump time by
> the congress - but then again, I may look like a genius a year from
> now... We shall see...
>

Oh boy - here we go...

Montblack

July 2nd 07, 10:57 PM

("cavelamb himself" wrote)
>> Did you notice that the Clintons bailed out of the market, converting
>> some $25M into cash and CD's?

> Oh boy - here we go...

(NAC) Necessary Aviation Content:
The PBS special on LBJ (which aired years ago) mentioned how he came to the
Senate/White House with squat, and left with a mini fortune - much of it
through land dealings.

Something about the selection site for the "new" Dallas airport magically
being on (or near) property he had recently acquired. <g>

Paul-Mont

cavelamb himself

July 2nd 07, 11:31 PM

Montblack wrote:

> ("cavelamb himself" wrote)
>
>>>Did you notice that the Clintons bailed out of the market, converting
>>>some $25M into cash and CD's?
>
>
>>Oh boy - here we go...
>
>
>
> (NAC) Necessary Aviation Content:
> The PBS special on LBJ (which aired years ago) mentioned how he came to the
> Senate/White House with squat, and left with a mini fortune - much of it
> through land dealings.
>
> Something about the selection site for the "new" Dallas airport magically
> being on (or near) property he had recently acquired. <g>
>
>
> Paul-Mont
>
>

Shoot! That's almost the same thing that happened back in Arkansas when
he became governor. Old habits are hard to break...

cavelamb himself

July 2nd 07, 11:33 PM

cavelamb himself wrote:

> Montblack wrote:
>
>> ("cavelamb himself" wrote)
>>
>>>> Did you notice that the Clintons bailed out of the market,
>>>> converting some $25M into cash and CD's?
>>
>>
>>
>>> Oh boy - here we go...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> (NAC) Necessary Aviation Content:
>> The PBS special on LBJ (which aired years ago) mentioned how he came
>> to the Senate/White House with squat, and left with a mini fortune -
>> much of it through land dealings.
>>
>> Something about the selection site for the "new" Dallas airport
>> magically being on (or near) property he had recently acquired. <g>
>>
>>
>> Paul-Mont
>>
>
> Shoot! That's almost the same thing that happened back in Arkansas when
> he became governor. Old habits are hard to break...

Sorry - meant Clinton here - not LBJ.

Roger (K8RI)

July 3rd 07, 06:47 AM

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 04:32:10 -0700, Denny > wrote:

>On Jun 29, 12:16 am, "Roger (K8RI)" > wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 04:56:04 -0700, Denny > wrote:
>>
>> >> It is hopeless alright...
>>
>> >Not to worry! The coming market correction will render large segments
>> >of the population incapable of buying gasohol... That alone will
>> >reduce our energy imbalance <there is always a silver lining>...
>>
>> Man, you're about as pessimistic as my doctor! <:-)) You must be
>> related.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >denny- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>Did you notice that the Clintons bailed out of the market, converting
>some $25M into cash and CD's?
>They are lawyers so just pay attention to what they are doing not what
>they are saying <if their lips are movin', etc.>, ... Being the
>ultimate insiders, they know something the peons don't..
>I made my decision... Yeah, I may miss a good year for the market -
>the year before an election traditionally being prime the pump time by
>the congress - but then again, I may look like a genius a year from
>now... We shall see...

We are overdue, but things are not badly over priced and an election
year is coming up. Based on that I'd hang in there for another 6
months and re-evaluate, but I was wrong once in my younger days<:-))

Roger (K8RI)

July 4th 07, 02:25 AM

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:31:27 GMT, cavelamb himself
> wrote:

>Montblack wrote:
>
>> ("cavelamb himself" wrote)
>>
>>>>Did you notice that the Clintons bailed out of the market, converting
>>>>some $25M into cash and CD's?
>>
>>
>>>Oh boy - here we go...
>>
>>
>>
>> (NAC) Necessary Aviation Content:
>> The PBS special on LBJ (which aired years ago) mentioned how he came to the
>> Senate/White House with squat, and left with a mini fortune - much of it
>> through land dealings.
>>
>> Something about the selection site for the "new" Dallas airport magically
>> being on (or near) property he had recently acquired. <g>
>>
>>
>> Paul-Mont
>>
>>
>
>Shoot! That's almost the same thing that happened back in Arkansas when
>he became governor. Old habits are hard to break...

Isn't it amazing the financial luck that seems to follow these people
that are lucky enough to reach higher office? And yes, I did see your
correction to Clinton. However wasn't his luck balanced out by the bad
luck of those around him from those days?