MARINE CORPS TEAM PREPARES MV-22 OSPREY FOR HARMFUL DUST IN IRAQ

[Mike[_1_]]

Inside the Navy
MARINE CORPS TEAM PREPARES MV-22 OSPREY FOR HARMFUL DUST IN IRAQ
Date: June 25, 2007
LE BOURGET, FRANCE -- A team of experts is developing tactics,
techniques and procedures to help safeguard the MV-22 Osprey from dust
and sand particles when the tiltrotor deploys to Iraq in September,
according to the program manager. Parts of the Osprey that draw in air
will likely ingest sand and dust, too, causing wear and tear, Marine
Col. Matt Mulhern told InsideDefense.com on June 18 at the Paris Air
Show. "We think anything that's going to suck air into the airplane is
going to wear out," he said. The MV-22 Osprey achieved initial
operational capability this month. The certification allows the
aircraft to deploy to Anbar province in Iraq -- a desert region -- for
seven months, starting in September. The Osprey is a tiltrotor
aircraft that takes off vertically like a helicopter but has the speed
and maneuverability of a fixed-wing plane once airborne. Bell
Helicopter Textron and Boeing developed the aircraft. A few months
ago, officials from Bell-Boeing, engine-maker Rolls-Royce and the
Marine Corps formed a "dust team" that is determining the types and
quantities of filters required to protect the Osprey from the
environment, Mulhern said. "The challenge," he said, is identifying
the "right" parts to store in the inventory for deployment. The team
also monitors lessons learned from the Air Force's 71st Special
Operations Squadron at Kirtland Air Force Base, NM. The squadron,
which operates in desert conditions, provides combat ready CV-22
aircrews to the service's special operations command. The CV-22 is the
Air Force's variant of the Osprey. The dust team was created, in part,
because "what we're not doing well is transitioning our lessons from
Marine Corps to the Air Force and Air Force to the Marine Corps,"
Mulhern said. "It'll never be a 100 percent solution until you
actually get there, but it's given us some insight into which
components are going to be bad actors, which filters we need to plus
up" and how to better clean and reuse filters, he added. The team is
also importing these lessons to Marines participating in the "Desert
Talon" training exercise at Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, AZ, Mulhern
said. When in Iraq, the Marine Osprey squadron VMM-263 will bring
speed and survivability to U.S. forces, Mulhern said. Besides being
"physically more survivable," the tiltrotor will be out of the range
of rocket-propelled grenades and small arms during transit, he said.
The U.S. military has lost more than 50 helicopters in Iraq since
invading the country in 2003. The international community will be
closely watching the Osprey's first deployment to gauge the
tiltrotor's value on the battlefield, Mulhern said. The aircraft,
which was showcased at the Farnborough Air Show in England last year,
was not displayed here because Marine Corps officials are focused on
preparing the deploying squadron for combat, Mulhern said. Several
nations have "informally" requested a chance to have their military
operators fly in the Osprey, Mulhern said. The requests came after the
Marine Corps held an "embassy day" on May 14 at Naval Air Station
Patuxent River, MD, where representatives from 16 nations -- including
France, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Spain, the United Kingdom and
Saudi Arabia -- inspected the tiltrotor, he added. During the visit,
the foreign officials rode in an Osprey, spent time in a flight
simulator, examined electronic training equipment and watched the
tiltrotor externally lift a humvee, Mulhern said. "I think,
realistically, everybody's watching the first deployment. . . . They
want to see the airplane perform," he said. "All eyes are on the
deployment." Meanwhile, program officials are also involved in the
"fact-finding phase" of a multiyear production deal. The Pentagon and
Bell-Boeing may ink the deal by December, Mulhern said. The $10
billion deal would buy 167 Ospreys between fiscal years 2008 and 2012.
Discussions on the multiyear proposal are centering on aligning
Defense Department schedules with Bell-Boeing's projected time lines,
Mulhern said. There is a "little bit of a disconnect on rate tooling,"
and "we need to work on the phasing of the dollars," he said. Osprey
program officials are also preparing for the CV-22 to begin initial
operational testing in late fall, as well as the airframe's first
shipboard deployment next year on an LHA large-deck amphibious assault
ship, Mulhern said. Despite improvements to the Osprey, critics still
express concern about its reliability. In 2000, two fatal V-22 mishaps
nearly ended the program.

[Vince]

Mike wrote:
> Inside the Navy
> MARINE CORPS TEAM PREPARES MV-22 OSPREY FOR HARMFUL DUST IN IRAQ
> Date: June 25, 2007
> LE BOURGET, FRANCE -- A team of experts is developing tactics,
> techniques and procedures to help safeguard the MV-22 Osprey from dust
> and sand particles when the tiltrotor deploys to Iraq in September,
> according to the program manager. Parts of the Osprey that draw in air
> will likely ingest sand and dust, too, causing wear and tear, Marine
> Col. Matt Mulhern told InsideDefense.com on June 18 at the Paris Air
> Show. "We think anything that's going to suck air into the airplane is
> going to wear out," he said. The MV-22 Osprey achieved initial
> operational capability this month. The certification allows the
> aircraft to deploy to Anbar province in Iraq -- a desert region -- for
> seven months, starting in September. The Osprey is a tiltrotor
> aircraft that takes off vertically like a helicopter but has the speed
> and maneuverability of a fixed-wing plane once airborne. Bell
> Helicopter Textron and Boeing developed the aircraft. A few months
> ago, officials from Bell-Boeing, engine-maker Rolls-Royce and the
> Marine Corps formed a "dust team" that is determining the types and
> quantities of filters required to protect the Osprey from the
> environment, Mulhern said. "The challenge," he said, is identifying
> the "right" parts to store in the inventory for deployment.

Anybody else think that this is a little "late in the day" for such a
team?

Vince

[Arved Sandstrom]

"Mike" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Inside the Navy
> MARINE CORPS TEAM PREPARES MV-22 OSPREY FOR HARMFUL DUST IN IRAQ
> Date: June 25, 2007
[ SNIP ]

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,NI_Myth_0904,00.html
http://www.popasmoke.com/notam2/showthread.php?s=57cefc04a46c54febcb0be50d8b91c86&t=6185

I am a bit skeptical of the ac, but let's see what it does.

AHS

[Kerryn Offord]

Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> "Mike" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Inside the Navy
>> MARINE CORPS TEAM PREPARES MV-22 OSPREY FOR HARMFUL DUST IN IRAQ
>> Date: June 25, 2007
> [ SNIP ]
>
> http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,NI_Myth_0904,00.html
> http://www.popasmoke.com/notam2/showthread.php?s=57cefc04a46c54febcb0be50d8b91c86&t=6185
>
> I am a bit skeptical of the ac, but let's see what it does.
>
> AHS
>
>

"The MV-22 Osprey is a very capable medium-lift military transport
aircraft the Marine Corps has needed for a long time. It is twice as
fast, can carry three times as much, and goes six times farther than the
CH-46E, the aircraft it is replacing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-22_Osprey#Specifications_.28V-22.29
Capacity: MV-22-24 troops; CV-22-24 troops (seated), 32 troops (floor
loaded) or 10,000 pounds of cargo
# Maximum speed: MV-22-275 knots; CV-22-277 knots (316 mph, 509 km/h)
# Cruise speed: 214 knots (246 mph, 396 km/h) at sea level
# Combat radius: 370 nm (430 mi, 690 km)
# Ferry range: 2,417 nm (2,781 mi, 4,476 km)
# Unrefueled range: 879 nm (1,011 mi, 1,627 km)
# Empty weight: 33,140 lb (15,032 kg)
# Loaded weight: 47,500 lb (21,500 kg)
# Max takeoff weight: 60,500 lb (27,400 kg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CH-46E#Specifications_.28CH-46_Sea_Knight.29
Capacity: 25 troops
# Maximum speed: 165 mph (143 knots; 265 km/h)
# Combat radius: 184 mi (160 nm, 296 km)
# Ferry range: 420 mi (360 nm, 676 km)
# Service ceiling: 14,000 ft (4,300 m)
# Empty weight: 15,537 lb (7,047 kg)
# Loaded weight: 17,396 lb (7,891 kg)
# Max takeoff weight: 24,300 lb (11,000 kg)

Twice as fast.. close enough
three times as much? 25 men vs 32.. Nope. Cargo? loaded - empty = V-22 @
~6,000 pounds, CH-46 ~ 2000 pounds.. So in the cargo role, yes.. In the
troop landing role, (@ max take off - 8763 lb (CH-46) vs 27360 lb V-22
... ~3 times..
6 times farther... Combat radius 370 nm vs 184.. Call it twice the
distance... ferry range.. 2417 vs 420 nm ~ 6 times..

Very selective choice of statistics...

[CarpATM[_2_]]

"Kerryn Offord" > wrote in message
...
> Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>> "Mike" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>> Inside the Navy
>>> MARINE CORPS TEAM PREPARES MV-22 OSPREY FOR HARMFUL DUST IN IRAQ
>>> Date: June 25, 2007
>> [ SNIP ]
>>
>> http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,NI_Myth_0904,00.html
>> http://www.popasmoke.com/notam2/showthread.php?s=57cefc04a46c54febcb0be50d8b91c86&t=6185
>>
>> I am a bit skeptical of the ac, but let's see what it does.
>>
>> AHS
>
> "The MV-22 Osprey is a very capable medium-lift military transport
> aircraft the Marine Corps has needed for a long time. It is twice as fast,
> can carry three times as much, and goes six times farther than the CH-46E,
> the aircraft it is replacing."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-22_Osprey#Specifications_.28V-22.29
> Capacity: MV-22-24 troops; CV-22-24 troops (seated), 32 troops (floor
> loaded) or 10,000 pounds of cargo
> # Maximum speed: MV-22-275 knots; CV-22-277 knots (316 mph, 509 km/h)
> # Cruise speed: 214 knots (246 mph, 396 km/h) at sea level
> # Combat radius: 370 nm (430 mi, 690 km)
> # Ferry range: 2,417 nm (2,781 mi, 4,476 km)
> # Unrefueled range: 879 nm (1,011 mi, 1,627 km)
> # Empty weight: 33,140 lb (15,032 kg)
> # Loaded weight: 47,500 lb (21,500 kg)
> # Max takeoff weight: 60,500 lb (27,400 kg)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CH-46E#Specifications_.28CH-46_Sea_Knight.29
> Capacity: 25 troops
> # Maximum speed: 165 mph (143 knots; 265 km/h)
> # Combat radius: 184 mi (160 nm, 296 km)
> # Ferry range: 420 mi (360 nm, 676 km)
> # Service ceiling: 14,000 ft (4,300 m)
> # Empty weight: 15,537 lb (7,047 kg)
> # Loaded weight: 17,396 lb (7,891 kg)
> # Max takeoff weight: 24,300 lb (11,000 kg)
>
> Twice as fast.. close enough
> three times as much? 25 men vs 32.. Nope. Cargo? loaded - empty = V-22 @
> ~6,000 pounds, CH-46 ~ 2000 pounds.. So in the cargo role, yes.. In the
> troop landing role, (@ max take off - 8763 lb (CH-46) vs 27360 lb V-22 ..
> ~3 times..
> 6 times farther... Combat radius 370 nm vs 184.. Call it twice the
> distance... ferry range.. 2417 vs 420 nm ~ 6 times..
>
> Very selective choice of statistics...
>
Precision high-performance components mean close tolerances - and fine
Arabic sand is the enemy of close tolerance bearings and fittings.

Marines hate uncertainty more than they fear failure. It is time for the
V-22 to step up.

[[email protected]]

On Jun 30, 9:20 pm, "CarpATM" > wrote:
> "Kerryn Offord" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> >> "Mike" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >>> Inside the Navy
> >>> MARINE CORPS TEAM PREPARES MV-22 OSPREY FOR HARMFUL DUST IN IRAQ
> >>> Date: June 25, 2007
> >> [ SNIP ]
>
> >>http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,NI_Myth_0904,00.html
> >>http://www.popasmoke.com/notam2/showthread.php?s=57cefc04a46c54febcb0...
>
> >> I am a bit skeptical of the ac, but let's see what it does.
>
> >> AHS
>
> > "The MV-22 Osprey is a very capable medium-lift military transport
> > aircraft the Marine Corps has needed for a long time. It is twice as fast,
> > can carry three times as much, and goes six times farther than the CH-46E,
> > the aircraft it is replacing."
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-22_Osprey#Specifications_.28V-22.29
> > Capacity: MV-22-24 troops; CV-22-24 troops (seated), 32 troops (floor
> > loaded) or 10,000 pounds of cargo
> > # Maximum speed: MV-22-275 knots; CV-22-277 knots (316 mph, 509 km/h)
> > # Cruise speed: 214 knots (246 mph, 396 km/h) at sea level
> > # Combat radius: 370 nm (430 mi, 690 km)
> > # Ferry range: 2,417 nm (2,781 mi, 4,476 km)
> > # Unrefueled range: 879 nm (1,011 mi, 1,627 km)
> > # Empty weight: 33,140 lb (15,032 kg)
> > # Loaded weight: 47,500 lb (21,500 kg)
> > # Max takeoff weight: 60,500 lb (27,400 kg)
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CH-46E#Specifications_.28CH-46_Sea_Knigh...
> > Capacity: 25 troops
> > # Maximum speed: 165 mph (143 knots; 265 km/h)
> > # Combat radius: 184 mi (160 nm, 296 km)
> > # Ferry range: 420 mi (360 nm, 676 km)
> > # Service ceiling: 14,000 ft (4,300 m)
> > # Empty weight: 15,537 lb (7,047 kg)
> > # Loaded weight: 17,396 lb (7,891 kg)
> > # Max takeoff weight: 24,300 lb (11,000 kg)
>
> > Twice as fast.. close enough
> > three times as much? 25 men vs 32.. Nope. Cargo? loaded - empty = V-22 @
> > ~6,000 pounds, CH-46 ~ 2000 pounds.. So in the cargo role, yes.. In the
> > troop landing role, (@ max take off - 8763 lb (CH-46) vs 27360 lb V-22 ..
> > ~3 times..
> > 6 times farther... Combat radius 370 nm vs 184.. Call it twice the
> > distance... ferry range.. 2417 vs 420 nm ~ 6 times..
>
> > Very selective choice of statistics...
>
> Precision high-performance components mean close tolerances - and fine
> Arabic sand is the enemy of close tolerance bearings and fittings.
>
> Marines hate uncertainty more than they fear failure. It is time for the
> V-22 to step up.





The Resistance will be knocking those ****ers out of the air in no
time.








- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Harry Andreas]

In article >, "CarpATM"
> wrote:


> Precision high-performance components mean close tolerances - and fine
> Arabic sand is the enemy of close tolerance bearings and fittings.

And this is different from the existing helos, how?

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

[Kerryn Offord]

Harry Andreas wrote:
> In article >, "CarpATM"
> > wrote:
>
>
>> Precision high-performance components mean close tolerances - and fine
>> Arabic sand is the enemy of close tolerance bearings and fittings.
>
> And this is different from the existing helos, how?
>

Well.. Most of them can auto-rotate.. while the V-22... can't...

[Henry J Cobb]

Kerryn Offord wrote:
> Harry Andreas wrote:
>> In article >, "CarpATM"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Precision high-performance components mean close tolerances - and
>>> fine Arabic sand is the enemy of close tolerance bearings and fittings.
>>
>> And this is different from the existing helos, how?
>
> Well.. Most of them can auto-rotate.. while the V-22... can't...

How many existing helos can glide to a landing?

-HJC

[Vince]

Kerryn Offord wrote:
> Harry Andreas wrote:
>> In article >, "CarpATM"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Precision high-performance components mean close tolerances - and
>>> fine Arabic sand is the enemy of close tolerance bearings and fittings.
>>
>> And this is different from the existing helos, how?
>>
>
> Well.. Most of them can auto-rotate.. while the V-22... can't...

it also has a unique 5000 psi hydraulic system. Very finicky

Vince

[Vince]

Henry J Cobb wrote:
> Kerryn Offord wrote:
>> Harry Andreas wrote:
>>> In article >, "CarpATM"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Precision high-performance components mean close tolerances - and
>>>> fine Arabic sand is the enemy of close tolerance bearings and fittings.
>>>
>>> And this is different from the existing helos, how?
>>
>> Well.. Most of them can auto-rotate.. while the V-22... can't...
>
> How many existing helos can glide to a landing?
>
> -HJC

essentially all of them

That is what auto rotation means

Vince

[Jack Linthicum]

On Jul 6, 6:43 am, Vince > wrote:
> Kerryn Offord wrote:
> > Harry Andreas wrote:
> >> In article >, "CarpATM"
> >> > wrote:
>
> >>> Precision high-performance components mean close tolerances - and
> >>> fine Arabic sand is the enemy of close tolerance bearings and fittings.
>
> >> And this is different from the existing helos, how?
>
> > Well.. Most of them can auto-rotate.. while the V-22... can't...
>
> it also has a unique 5000 psi hydraulic system. Very finicky
>
> Vince

Anyone want a pool on how soon after arrival in Iraq the first V-22
goes down? Limits are during first flight to no aircraft lost in 60
days.

[Vince]

Jack Linthicum wrote:
> On Jul 6, 6:43 am, Vince > wrote:
>> Kerryn Offord wrote:
>>> Harry Andreas wrote:
>>>> In article >, "CarpATM"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> Precision high-performance components mean close tolerances - and
>>>>> fine Arabic sand is the enemy of close tolerance bearings and fittings.
>>>> And this is different from the existing helos, how?
>>> Well.. Most of them can auto-rotate.. while the V-22... can't...
>> it also has a unique 5000 psi hydraulic system. Very finicky
>>
>> Vince
>
> Anyone want a pool on how soon after arrival in Iraq the first V-22
> goes down? Limits are during first flight to no aircraft lost in 60
> days.
>

no

vince

[Paul Elliot]

Jack Linthicum wrote:
> On Jul 6, 6:43 am, Vince > wrote:
>> Kerryn Offord wrote:
>>> Harry Andreas wrote:
>>>> In article >, "CarpATM"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> Precision high-performance components mean close tolerances - and
>>>>> fine Arabic sand is the enemy of close tolerance bearings and fittings.
>>>> And this is different from the existing helos, how?
>>> Well.. Most of them can auto-rotate.. while the V-22... can't...
>> it also has a unique 5000 psi hydraulic system. Very finicky
>>
>> Vince
>
> Anyone want a pool on how soon after arrival in Iraq the first V-22
> goes down? Limits are during first flight to no aircraft lost in 60
> days.
>

**** you Jack! How about we bet on how soon some one gives you an
"Indian beauty mark"?


--
Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics
German, the lovers French and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics
French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organized by Italians.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/

[Henry J Cobb]

Vince wrote:
> Henry J Cobb wrote:
>> How many existing helos can glide to a landing?
>
> essentially all of them
>
> That is what auto rotation means

Yes, but how many can do that once they've lost a rotor blade?

-HJC

[Harry Andreas]

In article >,
wrote:

> Kerryn Offord wrote:
> > Harry Andreas wrote:
> >> In article >, "CarpATM"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Precision high-performance components mean close tolerances - and
> >>> fine Arabic sand is the enemy of close tolerance bearings and fittings.
> >>
> >> And this is different from the existing helos, how?
> >>
> >
> > Well.. Most of them can auto-rotate.. while the V-22... can't...
>
> it also has a unique 5000 psi hydraulic system. Very finicky

Most new a/c have 8000 psi systems.
Why do you think 5000 psi is finicky?

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

[Vince]

Henry J Cobb wrote:
> Vince wrote:
>> Henry J Cobb wrote:
>>> How many existing helos can glide to a landing?
>>
>> essentially all of them
>>
>> That is what auto rotation means
>
> Yes, but how many can do that once they've lost a rotor blade?
>
> -HJC

about the same number of planes that can glide without a wing

Vince

[Vince]

Harry Andreas wrote:
> In article >,
> wrote:
>
>> Kerryn Offord wrote:
>>> Harry Andreas wrote:
>>>> In article >, "CarpATM"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Precision high-performance components mean close tolerances - and
>>>>> fine Arabic sand is the enemy of close tolerance bearings and fittings.
>>>> And this is different from the existing helos, how?
>>>>
>>> Well.. Most of them can auto-rotate.. while the V-22... can't...
>> it also has a unique 5000 psi hydraulic system. Very finicky
>
> Most new a/c have 8000 psi systems.

Which aircraft?


> Why do you think 5000 psi is finicky?
>

Because what the hydraulics do in the V-22 is very complex in a very
constricted environment.


Vince

[Kerryn Offord]

Henry J Cobb wrote:
> Vince wrote:
>> Henry J Cobb wrote:
>>> How many existing helos can glide to a landing?
>>
>> essentially all of them
>>
>> That is what auto rotation means
>
> Yes, but how many can do that once they've lost a rotor blade?
>
> -HJC

The question was looking at the problem of fine dust causing precision
systems to fail.. That's not the same as losing a rotor blade..

Most helicopters (It might even be a design requirement) can auto-rotate
if the engine(s) fail. The V-22 can't...

I doubt any V-22 can land shy of a rotor blade. As for a helicopter.. I
guess it might depend on how many the helicopter had to start with, how
heavy the helicopter and load is...

[BlackBeard]

On Jul 6, 3:57 pm, Kerryn Offord > wrote:
>
As for a helicopter.. I
> guess it might depend on how many the helicopter had to start with, how
> heavy the helicopter and load is...


No, if a helicopter loses a rotor blade that loss of balance will
destroy the aircraft...

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet...