Chinese (and other) pilots unable to speak English pose danger for air travel (CNN)

[Mxsmanic]

CNN's Web page has a video segment from The Situation Room that describes the
serious problems with international pilots who cannot speak English well
enough to communicate with air traffic control. They provide a recording of
communications with Air China flight 981 in April in which the pilot has no
idea what the controller is saying and the controller's frustration continues
to build as his instructions are not followed. (This same recording has been
circulating in aviation forums for months.) Air China says that it was the
controller's fault for not speaking "standard" English, but the recording
makes it clear that the pilots simply couldn't speak or understand at all.

Several Chinese pilots and officials are interviewed; all are provided with
subtitles (even though they are nominally speaking English) because their
English is unintelligible. One pilot who supposedly passed an English test
that will soon become mandatory is asked if he has ever had problems, and his
response, in extremely broken English, is also unintelligible. And he's one
of the pilots who passed?

It's a rather alarming report. Controllers have known about the problem for
years but nothing has ever been done.

[Donald Newcomb]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> One pilot who supposedly passed an English test
> that will soon become mandatory is asked if he has ever had problems, and
his
> response, in extremely broken English, is also unintelligible. And he's
one
> of the pilots who passed?

I wonder if the tests are all written, like in Japan where everyone studies
English but few people can speak it?

--
Donald R. Newcomb
DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net

[Matthias van Henk]

As more and more aviation business is operated from Asia and Chinese is
the most spoken language in the world all communication should be made
in Chinese then. :-)

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Matthias van Henk wrote:
> As more and more aviation business is operated from Asia and Chinese is
> the most spoken language in the world all communication should be made
> in Chinese then. :-)


If Won Wing Low had been the Father of Aviation, it could have been!



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[El Maximo]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> Matthias van Henk wrote:
>> As more and more aviation business is operated from Asia and Chinese is
>> the most spoken language in the world all communication should be made
>> in Chinese then. :-)
>
>
> If Won Wing Low had been the Father of Aviation, it could have been!
>
>
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
>

Allegedly, a Pan Am 727 flight waiting for start clearance in Munich
overheard the following:
Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."
Lufthansa (in English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in
Germany. Why must I speak English?"
Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent): "Because
you lost the bloody war."

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Matthias van Henk > said:
>As more and more aviation business is operated from Asia and Chinese is
>the most spoken language in the world all communication should be made
>in Chinese then. :-)

There is no such language as "Chinese". There are dozens of mutually
unintelligible languages in China. I know people from different areas of
China who can't even understand each other when they're supposedly both
speaking Mandarin, so they speak English to each other.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"I picked up a Magic 8-Ball the other day and it said 'Outlook not so
good.' I said, 'Sure, but Microsoft still ships it.'" - unk.

[Mxsmanic]

Donald Newcomb writes:

> I wonder if the tests are all written, like in Japan where everyone studies
> English but few people can speak it?

According to the news segment on CNN, the new test is verbal. It must be
extremely easy, though, since they interviewed a Chinese pilot who had passed
it and he was incomprehensible--and it was obvious that he had barely
understood the question put to him as well.

[Mxsmanic]

Matthias van Henk writes:

> As more and more aviation business is operated from Asia and Chinese is
> the most spoken language in the world all communication should be made
> in Chinese then. :-)

Chinese has a very limited geographic distribution. English is the most
widely spoken language, even if it has fewer _native_ speakers.

While I do not doubt that the Chinese influence in the world will continue to
grow, I don't expect this to have much effect on the use of language.

[Maxwell]

"El Maximo" > wrote in message
...
> "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> If Won Wing Low had been the Father of Aviation, it could have been!
>>
> Allegedly, a Pan Am 727 flight waiting for start clearance in Munich
> overheard the following:
> Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
> Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."
> Lufthansa (in English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in
> Germany. Why must I speak English?"
> Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent): "Because
> you lost the bloody war."
>

I think we can all rest assured teach the world to speak understandable
English is not a long term problem. Everything will be going to Spanish in a
few years anyway.

[[email protected]]

> I think we can all rest assured teach the world to speak understandable
> English is not a long term problem. Everything will be going to Spanish in a
> few years anyway.

No, it is going to be Esperanto, remember?

[Mxsmanic]

Maxwell writes:

> I think we can all rest assured teach the world to speak understandable
> English is not a long term problem. Everything will be going to Spanish in a
> few years anyway.

Very little will be going to Spanish any time soon. While many people speak
Spanish in some parts of the world, the geographic distribution is not very
even, and the countries that speak the language primarily are not that
influential. And don't forget Brazil.

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Maxwell writes:
>
>> I think we can all rest assured teach the world to speak understandable
>> English is not a long term problem. Everything will be going to Spanish
>> in a
>> few years anyway.
>
> Very little will be going to Spanish any time soon.

Out of touch with current events?

[K Baum]

On Jun 29, 4:39 am, "El Maximo" > wrote:
>
> Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
> Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."
> Lufthansa (in English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in
> Germany. Why must I speak English?"

What is interesting is that in Mexico and parts of South America, the
controllers speak Spanish with local (or domestic) flights, and
english with international flights.
KB.

[Dallas]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 19:43:47 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

> the geographic distribution is not very
> even, and the countries that speak the language primarily are not that
> influential.

About 1/4 of the Dallas cable TV channels are in Spanish.

http://tinyurl.com/ytw6cx

Sábado Gigante ya'll!

--
Dallas

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

K Baum wrote:
> What is interesting is that in Mexico and parts of South America, the
> controllers speak Spanish with local (or domestic) flights, and
> english with international flights.



That was my experience flying into Cuba.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[[email protected]]

> What is interesting is that in Mexico and parts of South America, the
> controllers speak Spanish with local (or domestic) flights, and
> english with international flights.
> KB.


This matches with what I experienced recently. I was on the ground
aboard a United passenger flight from Brazil to the USA and listening
to the onboard channel 9 ATC to kill time. Except for the United and a
Lufthansa pilot also awaiting clearance to taxi, every other pilot was
talking Portuguese. The controllers spoke perfect ATC English but
switched to Portuguese for the local pilots. I was thinking this could
easily lead to a lack of situational awareness in a large airport like
Sao Paulo's. It was interesting that even at the local Brazilian FBO,
there was no CFI who spoke English even though the Brazilian
requirements include a proficiency requirement in English!

[Mxsmanic]

El Maximo writes:

> Out of touch with current events?

No.

If you're travelling worldwide, the best language to know is English, followed
by French. Spanish would be in third place.

[Mxsmanic]

Dallas writes:

> About 1/4 of the Dallas cable TV channels are in Spanish.

As hard as it may be for residents of the city to accept, there is more to the
world outside of Dallas.

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> This matches with what I experienced recently. I was on the ground
> aboard a United passenger flight from Brazil to the USA and listening
> to the onboard channel 9 ATC to kill time. Except for the United and a
> Lufthansa pilot also awaiting clearance to taxi, every other pilot was
> talking Portuguese. The controllers spoke perfect ATC English but
> switched to Portuguese for the local pilots. I was thinking this could
> easily lead to a lack of situational awareness in a large airport like
> Sao Paulo's.

You're not supposed to require any communication with anyone other than ATC,
so if you need to hear other pilots on the frequency, there is a problem.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jun 29, 4:39 am, "El Maximo" > wrote:
> "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in ...
>
> > Matthias van Henk wrote:
> >> As more and more aviation business is operated from Asia and Chinese is
> >> the most spoken language in the world all communication should be made
> >> in Chinese then. :-)
>
> > If Won Wing Low had been the Father of Aviation, it could have been!
>
> > --
> > Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> > mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
>
> Allegedly, a Pan Am 727 flight waiting for start clearance in Munich
> overheard the following:
> Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
> Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."
> Lufthansa (in English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in
> Germany. Why must I speak English?"
> Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent): "Because
> you lost the bloody war."

The other version I"ve heard was an American flight had just landed
and was read a really fast taxi clearance. Apparently the pilot didn't
respond quickly.
ATC: "What's wrong with you haven't you been here before"
Pilot: "Once in 1943 but I didn't stop"

-Robert

[[email protected]]

On Jun 29, 1:09 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:
> > This matches with what I experienced recently. I was on the ground
> > aboard a United passenger flight from Brazil to the USA and listening
> > to the onboard channel 9 ATC to kill time. Except for the United and a
> > Lufthansa pilot also awaiting clearance to taxi, every other pilot was
> > talking Portuguese. The controllers spoke perfect ATC English but
> > switched to Portuguese for the local pilots. I was thinking this could
> > easily lead to a lack of situational awareness in a large airport like
> > Sao Paulo's.
>
> You're not supposed to require any communication with anyone other than ATC,
> so if you need to hear other pilots on the frequency, there is a problem.

Boy are you clueless...

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jun 29, 11:18 am, K Baum > wrote:
> On Jun 29, 4:39 am, "El Maximo" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
> > Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."
> > Lufthansa (in English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in
> > Germany. Why must I speak English?"
>
> What is interesting is that in Mexico and parts of South America, the
> controllers speak Spanish with local (or domestic) flights, and
> english with international flights.
> KB.

That's what I've seen in Mexico. I believe the rule is that ATC must
respond to you in the langauge you use during the call up (either the
native language of the country or English). I've though about using
Spanish but I've never done it. It is nice to speak Spanish because
that's the only way you know if ATC just cleared someone to land in
front of you.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jun 29, 12:09 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:
> > This matches with what I experienced recently. I was on the ground
> > aboard a United passenger flight from Brazil to the USA and listening
> > to the onboard channel 9 ATC to kill time. Except for the United and a
> > Lufthansa pilot also awaiting clearance to taxi, every other pilot was
> > talking Portuguese. The controllers spoke perfect ATC English but
> > switched to Portuguese for the local pilots. I was thinking this could
> > easily lead to a lack of situational awareness in a large airport like
> > Sao Paulo's.
>
> You're not supposed to require any communication with anyone other than ATC,
> so if you need to hear other pilots on the frequency, there is a problem.

You should try flying some time. There is a difference between
"minimum requirements" and "useful information".

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jun 29, 8:00 am, "Maxwell" > wrote:
> "El Maximo" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
> ...
>
> >> If Won Wing Low had been the Father of Aviation, it could have been!
>
> > Allegedly, a Pan Am 727 flight waiting for start clearance in Munich
> > overheard the following:
> > Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
> > Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."
> > Lufthansa (in English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in
> > Germany. Why must I speak English?"
> > Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent): "Because
> > you lost the bloody war."
>
> I think we can all rest assured teach the world to speak understandable
> English is not a long term problem. Everything will be going to Spanish in a
> few years anyway.

Actually in my travels around the world on business I've never found a
country where I couldn't find an English speaker. All you need to do
is find someone under the age of 15. I would guess that 75% of the
world's population under the age of 15 speaks some English (especially
in Asia ,South America, and Europe).

-Robert

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Dallas writes:

> > About 1/4 of the Dallas cable TV channels are in Spanish.

> As hard as it may be for residents of the city to accept, there is more to the
> world outside of Dallas.

What a clueless twit.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> El Maximo writes:
>
>> Out of touch with current events?
>
> No.
>
> If you're travelling worldwide, the best language to know is English,
> followed
> by French.

For the first time, you have made me laugh. Thanks for that.

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Dallas writes:
>
>> About 1/4 of the Dallas cable TV channels are in Spanish.
>
> As hard as it may be for residents of the city to accept, there is more to
> the
> world outside of Dallas.

How about those 1040 instructions printed in Spanish, or did you forget to
file (again)?

[JohnT[_2_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> El Maximo writes:
>
>> Out of touch with current events?
>
> No.
>
> If you're travelling worldwide, the best language to know is English,
> followed
> by French. Spanish would be in third place.


But you haven't been further than La Défense in the past 2 years except in
Flight Simulator.
--


JohnT

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Robert M. Gary" > said:
>The other version I"ve heard was an American flight had just landed
>and was read a really fast taxi clearance. Apparently the pilot didn't
>respond quickly.
>ATC: "What's wrong with you haven't you been here before"
>Pilot: "Once in 1943 but I didn't stop"

The canonical version of that joke involves a BOAC flight, and the pilot
continued "and they weren't any friendlier then either."


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
Things should be as simple as possible, but not simpler.
-- Albert Einstein

[Dallas]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:08:16 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

> As hard as it may be for residents of the city to accept, there is more to the
> world outside of Dallas.

Tell ya what...

Why don't you make a list of all the foreign countries you've been to and
I'll respond with a list of my own and we'll see who's got the widest world
view.

--
Dallas

[ManhattanMan]

Dallas wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:08:16 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:
>
>> As hard as it may be for residents of the city to accept, there is
>> more to the world outside of Dallas.
>
> Tell ya what...
>
> Why don't you make a list of all the foreign countries you've been to
> and I'll respond with a list of my own and we'll see who's got the
> widest world view.

That'd be fine, except he lies like a rug! Would anyone here buy a car from
Mx?

[A Guy Called Tyketto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In rec.aviation.piloting Robert M. Gary > wrote:
> On Jun 29, 12:09 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>> writes:
>> > This matches with what I experienced recently. I was on the ground
>> > aboard a United passenger flight from Brazil to the USA and listening
>> > to the onboard channel 9 ATC to kill time. Except for the United and a
>> > Lufthansa pilot also awaiting clearance to taxi, every other pilot was
>> > talking Portuguese. The controllers spoke perfect ATC English but
>> > switched to Portuguese for the local pilots. I was thinking this could
>> > easily lead to a lack of situational awareness in a large airport like
>> > Sao Paulo's.
>>
>> You're not supposed to require any communication with anyone other than ATC,
>> so if you need to hear other pilots on the frequency, there is a problem.

Pathetically clueless. Sometimes I feel I should pity you. But
you're wrong most to all of the time, so I don't; you deserve the
(negative) feedback you get for your mistakes.

> You should try flying some time. There is a difference between
> "minimum requirements" and "useful information".

He already mentioned that he doesn't want to step foot anywhere
inside a plane, but when is given the right information by pilots and
controllers here and other places, he argues that they are wrong.

Either way, back on topic. On the KLAS LiveATC feed today, a
pilot was having radio issues (carrier, no voice). ATC couldn't hear
him, but other pilots could. So ATC asked another pilot to relay what
ATC was asking him to do. That worked and through that proxy pilot, ATC
got that pilot back on the ground so he could work on the radio.

Plus, Anthony, 4 words. Common. Traffic. Advisory. Frequency.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! :) | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

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[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-06-29 06:38:49 -0700, (Paul Tomblin) said:

> In a previous article, Matthias van Henk > said:
>> As more and more aviation business is operated from Asia and Chinese is
>> the most spoken language in the world all communication should be made
>> in Chinese then. :-)
>
> There is no such language as "Chinese". There are dozens of mutually
> unintelligible languages in China. I know people from different areas of
> China who can't even understand each other when they're supposedly both
> speaking Mandarin, so they speak English to each other.

You see that all over Asia. People who supposedly speak the same
dialect who cannot understand each other, so they speak English.
English has become what Esperanto was intended to be.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-06-29 08:00:54 -0700, "Maxwell" > said:

>
> "El Maximo" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> If Won Wing Low had been the Father of Aviation, it could have been!
>>>
>> Allegedly, a Pan Am 727 flight waiting for start clearance in Munich
>> overheard the following:
>> Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
>> Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."
>> Lufthansa (in English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in
>> Germany. Why must I speak English?"
>> Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent): "Because
>> you lost the bloody war."
>>
>
> I think we can all rest assured teach the world to speak understandable
> English is not a long term problem. Everything will be going to Spanish in a
> few years anyway.

The Chinese are studying English by the millions. There are more
non-native English speakers than there are native English speakers, and
the gap is growing.

It is a mistake to think that the things that are done on behalf of an
American cultural minority mean that America is going to change to
Spanish. Even less so for the entire rest of the world. English is
rapidly becoming the universal language of the world. Declare yourself
an English teacher and you can get a job practically anywhere in Asia,
the Middle East, Africa, or even South America.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-06-29 11:18:09 -0700, K Baum > said:

> On Jun 29, 4:39 am, "El Maximo" > wrote:
>>
>> Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
>> Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."
>> Lufthansa (in English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in
>> Germany. Why must I speak English?"
>
> What is interesting is that in Mexico and parts of South America, the
> controllers speak Spanish with local (or domestic) flights, and
> english with international flights.
> KB.

They do at the major airports. Get off the beaten track and you might
find a controller that does not speak English. Also, there is no
guarantee that the local commandant will speak English when you land at
some of the smaller airports. Fortunately, he usually has a jeep and
can take you to somebody who does speak English.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, C J Campbell > said:
>> What is interesting is that in Mexico and parts of South America, the
>> controllers speak Spanish with local (or domestic) flights, and
>> english with international flights.
>They do at the major airports. Get off the beaten track and you might
>find a controller that does not speak English. Also, there is no
>guarantee that the local commandant will speak English when you land at
>some of the smaller airports. Fortunately, he usually has a jeep and
>can take you to somebody who does speak English.

At gunpoint, possibly.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
If you had the chance of making the amount of pain your lusers had to suffer
dependent on the number of windows on their screens, you would seize the
opportunity, wouldn't you? -- Abigail

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:39:21 +0200, the renowned Mxsmanic
> wrote:

>Donald Newcomb writes:
>
>> I wonder if the tests are all written, like in Japan where everyone studies
>> English but few people can speak it?
>
>According to the news segment on CNN, the new test is verbal. It must be
>extremely easy, though, since they interviewed a Chinese pilot who had passed
>it and he was incomprehensible--and it was obvious that he had barely
>understood the question put to him as well.

Are you sure he wasn't a Chinese pirate?


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

[Viperdoc[_3_]]

Why don't you go back to wherever you were for the past week and bother some
other people for a change?

[ant[_2_]]

Maxwell wrote:
> I think we can all rest assured teach the world to speak
> understandable English is not a long term problem. Everything will be
> going to Spanish in a few years anyway.

In the US, possibly.


--
Don't try to reply to my email addy:
I'm borrowing that of the latest
scammer/spammer

[Dallas]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 17:45:32 -0500, ManhattanMan wrote:

> That'd be fine, except he lies like a rug! Would anyone here buy a car from
> Mx?

That's ok.. I figure even if he lies we'll all know it. Everyone knows he
rarely leaves his apartment.

--
Dallas

[NotABushSupporter]

wrote:

>>What is interesting is that in Mexico and parts of South America, the
>>controllers speak Spanish with local (or domestic) flights, and
>>english with international flights.
>>KB.
>
>
>
> This matches with what I experienced recently. I was on the ground
> aboard a United passenger flight from Brazil to the USA and listening
> to the onboard channel 9 ATC to kill time. Except for the United and a
> Lufthansa pilot also awaiting clearance to taxi, every other pilot was
> talking Portuguese. The controllers spoke perfect ATC English but
> switched to Portuguese for the local pilots. I was thinking this could
> easily lead to a lack of situational awareness in a large airport like
> Sao Paulo's.

Wasn't there a recent ground collision in Sao Paulo?

[NotABushSupporter]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Actually in my travels around the world on business I've never found a
> country where I couldn't find an English speaker. All you need to do
> is find someone under the age of 15. I would guess that 75% of the
> world's population under the age of 15 speaks some English (especially
> in Asia ,South America, and Europe).

In parts of the US, you wouldn't be able to find 75 percent of the
population under 15 speaking English. If you believe that 75 percent of
the world's population under 15 speak English, you haven't traveled
enough.

[Mxsmanic]

Spehro Pefhany writes:

> Are you sure he wasn't a Chinese pirate?

There was no reason to believe that he might be a pirate.

[Mxsmanic]

JohnT writes:

> But you haven't been further than La Défense in the past 2 years except in
> Flight Simulator.

I haven't been to Mount Everest, but I know it's a tough mountain to climb.
That's one of the consequences of education.

[Mxsmanic]

El Maximo writes:

> How about those 1040 instructions printed in Spanish, or did you forget to
> file (again)?

The United States is also only a small fraction of the world, and it has an
obsession with political correctness and a substantial minority of Spanish
speakers that most nations do not share.

The odd thing is that most people in the U.S. who can speak only Spanish are
illiterate in both English _and_ Spanish.

[Mxsmanic]

Dallas writes:

> Tell ya what...
>
> Why don't you make a list of all the foreign countries you've been to and
> I'll respond with a list of my own and we'll see who's got the widest world
> view.

I spoke of the world; you countered with an observation concerning the city of
Dallas.

[Mxsmanic]

NotABushSupporter writes:

> In parts of the US, you wouldn't be able to find 75 percent of the
> population under 15 speaking English.

Many countries understand the utility of English better than the United States
does.

> If you believe that 75 percent of the world's population under 15
> speak English, you haven't traveled enough.

I'll agree that this is quite an exaggeration. Most of the world's population
does not speak English. However, English is more widely spoken than any other
language.

[Mxsmanic]

C J Campbell writes:

> The Chinese are studying English by the millions.

So that would come out to, what, 0.4%?

People can study a language for years without learning it. It depends on
motivation, quality of education, and other factors. In much of the world
people study English for years but never become competent in the language. In
Europe, France has some of the worst English instruction, although all the
Latin countries of Europe are very poor in English.

> It is a mistake to think that the things that are done on behalf of an
> American cultural minority mean that America is going to change to
> Spanish. Even less so for the entire rest of the world. English is
> rapidly becoming the universal language of the world. Declare yourself
> an English teacher and you can get a job practically anywhere in Asia,
> the Middle East, Africa, or even South America.

Quite so. English is now favored simply because so many people already speak
it, and even two people who have different, non-English native languages will
generally choose to communicate in English rather than try to learn each
other's language. Spanish is mostly geographically limited to parts of the
Americas (keeping Brazil in mind), which does not make it useful in most of
the world.

[Mxsmanic]

A Guy Called Tyketto writes:

> Plus, Anthony, 4 words. Common. Traffic. Advisory. Frequency.

CTAF is not ATC.

[Mxsmanic]

C J Campbell writes:

> You see that all over Asia. People who supposedly speak the same
> dialect who cannot understand each other, so they speak English.
> English has become what Esperanto was intended to be.

Chinese is a special case because the spoken versions of Chinese are mutually
incomprehensible; they are completely different. At the same time, the
written versions are generally coherent. So one Chinese person may have no
idea what another Chinese person is saying, but he will immediately understand
if they communicate in writing on a piece of paper.

This is a consequence of the Chinese use of symbols for concepts in the
written language, rather than symbols for sounds. The written language
provides almost no clue to pronunciation, and so pronunciation drifts until
the spoken languages become completely separated.

It's also one reason why Chinese is not likely to ever become a universal
language.

[JohnT[_2_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> JohnT writes:
>
>> But you haven't been further than La Défense in the past 2 years except
>> in
>> Flight Simulator.
>
> I haven't been to Mount Everest, but I know it's a tough mountain to
> climb.
> That's one of the consequences of education.


You may (or may not) have received a wonderful education but you have never
said anything during a NG discussion which leads me to think that you have
actually learned anything about anything.
--


JohnT

[NotABushSupporter]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> El Maximo writes:
>
>
>>How about those 1040 instructions printed in Spanish, or did you forget to
>>file (again)?
>
>
> The United States is also only a small fraction of the world, and it has an
> obsession with political correctness and a substantial minority of Spanish
> speakers that most nations do not share.
>
> The odd thing is that most people in the U.S. who can speak only Spanish are
> illiterate in both English _and_ Spanish.

Do you have a source that you can cite for this, or did you just make it up?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> CNN's Web page has a video segment from The Situation Room that
> describes the serious problems with international pilots who cannot
> speak English well enough to communicate with air traffic control.
> They provide a recording of communications with Air China flight 981
> in April in which the pilot has no idea what the controller is saying
> and the controller's frustration continues to build as his
> instructions are not followed. (This same recording has been
> circulating in aviation forums for months.) Air China says that it
> was the controller's fault for not speaking "standard" English, but
> the recording makes it clear that the pilots simply couldn't speak or
> understand at all.
>
> Several Chinese pilots and officials are interviewed; all are provided
> with subtitles (even though they are nominally speaking English)
> because their English is unintelligible. One pilot who supposedly
> passed an English test that will soon become mandatory is asked if he
> has ever had problems, and his response, in extremely broken English,
> is also unintelligible. And he's one of the pilots who passed?
>
> It's a rather alarming report. Controllers have known about the
> problem for years but nothing has ever been done.
>

Bull****


Bertie

[Jay B]

On Jun 29, 5:07 pm, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
> In a previous article, C J Campbell > said:
>
> >> What is interesting is that in Mexico and parts of South America, the
> >> controllers speak Spanish with local (or domestic) flights, and
> >> english with international flights.
> >They do at the major airports. Get off the beaten track and you might
> >find a controller that does not speak English. Also, there is no
> >guarantee that the local commandant will speak English when you land at
> >some of the smaller airports. Fortunately, he usually has a jeep and
> >can take you to somebody who does speak English.
>
> At gunpoint, possibly.
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin /
> If you had the chance of making the amount of pain your lusers had to suffer
> dependent on the number of windows on their screens, you would seize the
> opportunity, wouldn't you? -- Abigail

I was gonna say "For a fee..." but it amounts to the same thing I
guess.

Jay B

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Mxsmanic > said:
>Chinese is a special case because the spoken versions of Chinese are mutually
>incomprehensible; they are completely different. At the same time, the
>written versions are generally coherent. So one Chinese person may have no
>idea what another Chinese person is saying, but he will immediately understand
>if they communicate in writing on a piece of paper.

Actually, it's not a special case, and it's not soley because they use a
symbolic written language. I have a Lebanese friend who can read Arabic
newspapers from around the Arab world, but he says he can understand
spoken Arabic from Syrians and Iraqis, but not from Egyptians or anybody
further away because the pronunciation drift around the Med.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"Mission Control clears SMS-1 to Canaveral via thrust vectors, Up, Hold
Earth, right turns, expect further clearance in ten days."
http://www.avweb.com/news/usedacft/181561-1.html

[TMOliver]

"NotABushSupporter" > wrote in message
. ..
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>> Actually in my travels around the world on business I've never found a
>> country where I couldn't find an English speaker. All you need to do
>> is find someone under the age of 15. I would guess that 75% of the
>> world's population under the age of 15 speaks some English (especially
>> in Asia ,South America, and Europe).
>
> In parts of the US, you wouldn't be able to find 75 percent of the
> population under 15 speaking English. If you believe that 75 percent of
> the world's population under 15 speak English, you haven't traveled
> enough.
>
While our definitions of "English" mat vary, otherwise your statement is
hogwash. Even here in Central Texas, with more than our share of
"illegals", and a 25% Hispanic population, there are very few illegals under
15. In Laredo, with a 97% Hispanic population, kids are "workably"
bilingual, and in San Antonio, 60% Hispanic, the choice of language varies
with the location and nature of the conversation. One of the great cultural
crises of the moment involves complaints by older Mexican Americans that too
few of their kids/grandkids speak Spanish (or speak it well). The same kids
I hear almost daily conversing in "Spanglish" are usually quite able to
speak English (although often one might question their literacy levels.

Perhaps they simply don't want to speak English to/with you......

About the only non-English speakers I encounter are very elderly or recently
arrived illegals, many of whom cling to the "No spik Ingles" defense long
after being able to understand the language (or the marketplace versions,
"Spanglish" and "Post Hole Spanish").

TMO

[Cubdriver]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:39:21 +0200, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

>According to the news segment on CNN, the new test is verbal.

Most tests are, unless they are intended for folks who can't read.
(Putting round pegs into round holes would be non-verbal. Checking off
"round hole" to the question "which hole does this peg go into?" is
verbal.)

But perhaps you meant "oral"?

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
forthcoming from HarperCollins www.flyingtigersbook.com

[Cubdriver]

>Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent): "Because
>you lost the bloody war."
>

My son-in-law (who is English) tells this story:

A German in an AWACS over Afghanistan picks up a call from a boat in
the Bay of Bengal: "I'm sinking! I'm sinking!"

To which the controller replied in an interested voice: "And vat are
you sinking about?"


Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
forthcoming from HarperCollins www.flyingtigersbook.com

[Cubdriver]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 19:18:54 -0000, "Robert M. Gary"
> wrote:

>Actually in my travels around the world on business I've never found a
>country where I couldn't find an English speaker. All you need to do
>is find someone under the age of 15. I would guess that 75% of the
>world's population under the age of 15 speaks some English (especially
>in Asia ,South America, and Europe).

When I walked down the street in Kunming, I was of course the object
of great curiosity. These little round dolls on recess would crowd up
against the wrought-iron fence and shout at me: "Hello Hello Hello!"

I would turn to them and reply: "Hello."

Whereupon they almost fainted away. My God, it worked! I spoke English
to the big-nose and he spoke English right back!

I reckon they were eight years old. All girls. (Maybe they teach
Spanish to the boys?)

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
forthcoming from HarperCollins www.flyingtigersbook.com

[Cubdriver]

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:13:48 -0500, "TMOliver"
> wrote:

>Perhaps they simply don't want to speak English to/with you......

There's a lot of that going on. I was stationed in France when I was
in the army, and it was my impression that most Parisians preferred to
oblige the foreigner to speak French even if they were fluent in it.

In Saigon some years ago I fell into conversation with Andre Le Bon, a
one-legged war correspondent. (He left the other leg at Dienbienphu.)
We had these excruciating (for me and I suspect for him) talks about
military strategy on the part of the French and on the part of the
Americans. If I couldn't think of the French phrase, I'd said it in
English: "Regimental Combat Team" and Andre would supply "Groupe
Mobile" and we would rattle on till the next crisis. Clearly his
English was far better than my French, but we never spoke English.

After I graduated from college, I chased a girl to Montreal and hung
around there for a week. If I asked a question in French, the other
person invariably answered in English. But some years later I went
back and I found the situation had reversed: if I asked a question in
English, the other person invariably answered in French. (I.e.,
Montrealers had become Parisians.)



Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
forthcoming from HarperCollins www.flyingtigersbook.com

[Cubdriver]

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 09:16:23 +0200, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

>Chinese is a special case because the spoken versions of Chinese are mutually
>incomprehensible; they are completely different. At the same time, the
>written versions are generally coherent.

My daughter took Chinese at university. She knew she was in trouble
when she looked at the lad beside her and saw that he was taking notes
in ideograms.

Though he had a huge advantage, in that he knew both the tones and the
ideograms, he was from San Francisco and therefore had learned
Cantonese, not the Mandarin taught at university.

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
forthcoming from HarperCollins www.flyingtigersbook.com

[Airbus]

In article >,
says...
>

>
>You're not supposed to require any communication with anyone other than ATC,
>so if you need to hear other pilots on the frequency, there is a problem.


This guy is unbelievable!
What's that riddle about the two brothers - one always lies and the other
always tells the truth? You have to devise a question to ask both to determine
who is the liar.

This guy is so consistently wrong about everything he says that one can
determine the truth from it!! If he makes a statement, you can be relatively
certain the opposite is true . . .

[Mxsmanic]

Cubdriver <usenet AT danford DOT net> writes:

> Most tests are, unless they are intended for folks who can't read.
> (Putting round pegs into round holes would be non-verbal. Checking off
> "round hole" to the question "which hole does this peg go into?" is
> verbal.)
>
> But perhaps you meant "oral"?

I was simply using the same term CNN used. I don't know exactly what they
might have meant by it, but I presume they meant oral.

[A Guy Called Tyketto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic > wrote:
> A Guy Called Tyketto writes:
>
>> Plus, Anthony, 4 words. Common. Traffic. Advisory. Frequency.
>
> CTAF is not ATC.

It doesn't need to be. Your exact quote:

>> You're not supposed to require any communication with anyone other
>> than ATC, so if you need to hear other pilots on the frequency,
>> there is a problem.

On the CTAF, you need to be able to be in communication with
everyone other than ATC, (meaning, hearing other pilots on frequency).
If you don't, there is a problem.

Threaded newsreaders, as well as USENET archives, are so fun
and easy to abuse.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! :) | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

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[Mxsmanic]

A Guy Called Tyketto writes:

> On the CTAF, you need to be able to be in communication with
> everyone other than ATC, (meaning, hearing other pilots on frequency).

CTAF is not an ATC frequency.

[A Guy Called Tyketto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic > wrote:
> A Guy Called Tyketto writes:
>
>> On the CTAF, you need to be able to be in communication with
>> everyone other than ATC, (meaning, hearing other pilots on frequency).
>
> CTAF is not an ATC frequency.

http://www.fordyce.org/scanning/scanning_info/govtuse.html

- --snip--
Aeronautical mobile service spectrum requirements are accommodated
mostly in the HF (3-23 MHz) and VHF (117.975-137 MHz) portion of the radio
spectrum. The VHF band provides the primary communications mode for Air
Traffic Service (ATS) and Aeronautical Operational Control (AOC) safety
communications for all areas of the world where radio line-of-sight
services can be established. In the United States, this band is used by
Federal Aviation Administration to provide ATS safety communications and
by users such as, the airlines, business aviation, and general aviation to
provide AOC safety communications.
- --snip--

This covers all frequencies reserved for air traffic and
control of such traffic, and implies that any of such frequencies can
and may be used for *air traffic control*. Furthermore:

- --snip--
Each communications frequency is re-used as often as possible (due to the
fixed number of available frequencies) so that continuous coverage can be
established to support air traffic control systems.
- --snip--

You will find that all CTAFs for various fields are within the
above VHF range for such coverage for ATC systems. You will also find
that most CTAF frequencies at fields that close for the night also are
the Tower frequency for that field.

In short, you are wrong. But I'm pretty sure you will argue
that the information on that page is wrong, just like you do everything
else in this world. Oh, btw.. Humidity was 30% in Oklahoma City today,
and guess what.. it didn't rain!

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! :) | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

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[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> A Guy Called Tyketto writes:
>
>> On the CTAF, you need to be able to be in communication with
>> everyone other than ATC, (meaning, hearing other pilots on frequency).
>
> CTAF is not an ATC frequency.
>

Bwahawahwhahawhawhawhaahwahwahwahwhahwhahwahwhahwh ahwahwhahwhahwhahwahhahhh
ahwhahwahwhahwahwhahhahhahahwhah!


Bertie

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Dallas writes:
>
>> About 1/4 of the Dallas cable TV channels are in Spanish.
>
> As hard as it may be for residents of the city to accept, there is
> more to the world outside of Dallas.

Well, there is at least one thing NOT outside the Dallas area. The Dallas
cable TV system.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jun 30, 12:56 pm, Cubdriver <usenet AT danford DOT net> wrote:
> >Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent): "Because
> >you lost the bloody war."
>
> My son-in-law (who is English) tells this story:
>
> A German in an AWACS over Afghanistan picks up a call from a boat in
> the Bay of Bengal: "I'm sinking! I'm sinking!"
>
> To which the controller replied in an interested voice: "And vat are
> you sinking about?"

That's a commercial for a European company that does English
instruction. There is another one that is really funny too. A family
(mom, dad, teens) are sitting in a car and turn on an English radio
station. The song goes something like "I want to do you up the $@#".
The whole family is singing along having a great time. The caption
reads something like "Time to learn English". ;: ! Some of the
funniest commercials you've ever seen. I think the company is called
Beritz and is in Germany.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Jul 2, 2:37 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Jun 30, 12:56 pm, Cubdriver <usenet AT danford DOT net> wrote:
>
> > >Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent): "Because
> > >you lost the bloody war."
>
> > My son-in-law (who is English) tells this story:
>
> > A German in an AWACS over Afghanistan picks up a call from a boat in
> > the Bay of Bengal: "I'm sinking! I'm sinking!"
>
> > To which the controller replied in an interested voice: "And vat are
> > you sinking about?"
>
> That's a commercial for a European company that does English
> instruction. There is another one that is really funny too. A family
> (mom, dad, teens) are sitting in a car and turn on an English radio
> station. The song goes something like "I want to do you up the $@#".
> The whole family is singing along having a great time. The caption
> reads something like "Time to learn English". ;: ! Some of the
> funniest commercials you've ever seen. I think the company is called
> Beritz and is in Germany.
>
> -Robert

Here they are
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IuSELsBd6h4 (explicit lyrics but really
funny)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKPSsz_kyCc&NR=1 (funny and ok for the
kids)

-Robert

[Mxsmanic]

A Guy Called Tyketto writes:

> This covers all frequencies reserved for air traffic and
> control of such traffic, and implies that any of such frequencies can
> and may be used for *air traffic control*.

CTAF is not an ATC frequency. It is used by pilots when ATC is not available.

> In short, you are wrong.

Just as I was wrong about the sun in Paris setting later than it does in Las
Vegas on the solstice?

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>A Guy Called Tyketto writes:
>
>> This covers all frequencies reserved for air traffic and
>> control of such traffic, and implies that any of such frequencies can
>> and may be used for *air traffic control*.
>
> CTAF is not an ATC frequency. It is used by pilots when ATC is not
> available.

Did you even read what he posted? What part of "all frequencies reserved for
air traffic and control of such traffic" didn't you understand.

>
> Just as I was wrong about the sun in Paris setting later than it does in
> Las
> Vegas on the solstice?

Stupid people are sometimes right.

[[email protected]]

Uh, the sun always sets later in Las Vegas than in Paris if On Jul 2,
8:13 pm, "El Maximo" > wrote:
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >A Guy Called Tyketto writes:
>
> >> This covers all frequencies reserved for air traffic and
>>> control of such traffic, and implies that any of such frequencies can
> >> and may be used for *air traffic control*.
>
> > CTAF is not an ATC frequency. It is used by pilots when ATC is not
> > available.
>
> Did you even read what he posted? What part of "all frequencies reserved for
> air traffic and control of such traffic" didn't you understand.
>
>
>
> > Just as I was wrong about the sun in Paris setting later than it does in
> > Las
> > Vegas on the solstice?
>
> Stupid people are sometimes right.

[[email protected]]

On a given day, the sun always sets earlier in Paris than in Nevada.



On Jul 2, 8:13 pm, "El Maximo" > wrote:
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >A Guy Called Tyketto writes:
>
> >> This covers all frequencies reserved for air traffic and
> >> control of such traffic, and implies that any of such frequencies can
> >> and may be used for *air traffic control*.
>
> > CTAF is not an ATC frequency. It is used by pilots when ATC is not
> > available.
>
> Did you even read what he posted? What part of "all frequencies reserved for
> air traffic and control of such traffic" didn't you understand.
>
>
>
> > Just as I was wrong about the sun in Paris setting later than it does in
> > Las
> > Vegas on the solstice?
>
> Stupid people are sometimes right.

[A Guy Called Tyketto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic > wrote:
> A Guy Called Tyketto writes:
>
>> This covers all frequencies reserved for air traffic and
>> control of such traffic, and implies that any of such frequencies can
>> and may be used for *air traffic control*.
>
> CTAF is not an ATC frequency. It is used by pilots when ATC is not available.
>
>> In short, you are wrong.
>
> Just as I was wrong about the sun in Paris setting later than it does in Las
> Vegas on the solstice?

One day out of the entire year? You're really off it, Anthony.
Just like you were off that ATC's only purpose is to serve pilots,
which is why ATC is always supposed to call them 'sir'.

Just like you and your charts were wrong about Tuweep being
open.

Just like you are wrong when you claim that anyone and everyone
here who has real world aviation experience (whether as a pilot or
controller) is wrong because it doesn't meld with your exuberant and
blatantly outrageous assumptions of how air travel should be.

It's beyond saying that you need help, Anthony, and that these
people here can offer you that guidance, based on their experiences.
You've driven them and everyone else in this group to the point where
they don't want you here. In short,

You're pathetic, so go home.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! :) | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

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[gernot almen]

> On a given day, the sun always sets earlier in Paris than in Nevada.

Local or global time?

[NotABushSupporter]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>
>>Dallas writes:
>>
>>
>>>About 1/4 of the Dallas cable TV channels are in Spanish.
>>
>>As hard as it may be for residents of the city to accept, there is
>>more to the world outside of Dallas.
>
>
> Well, there is at least one thing NOT outside the Dallas area. The Dallas
> cable TV system.
>
>

Don't you have a SlingBox?

[NotABushSupporter]

El Maximo wrote:

> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>A Guy Called Tyketto writes:
>>
>>
>>>This covers all frequencies reserved for air traffic and
>>>control of such traffic, and implies that any of such frequencies can
>>>and may be used for *air traffic control*.
>>
>>CTAF is not an ATC frequency. It is used by pilots when ATC is not
>>available.
>
>
> Did you even read what he posted? What part of "all frequencies reserved for
> air traffic and control of such traffic" didn't you understand.
>
>
>>Just as I was wrong about the sun in Paris setting later than it does in
>>Las
>>Vegas on the solstice?
>
>
> Stupid people are sometimes right.
>

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> Uh, the sun always sets later in Las Vegas than in Paris if On Jul 2,

Sunset is at 9:57 PM local time today in Paris, and at 8:01 PM local time in
Las Vegas.

Paris, being much further north than Las Vegas, sees much greater seasonal
variations in the length of daylight each day.

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> writes:
>
>> Uh, the sun always sets later in Las Vegas than in Paris if On Jul 2,
>
> Sunset is at 9:57 PM local time today in Paris, and at 8:01 PM local time
> in
> Las Vegas.

Changing the problem again, I see.

Nobody said local time.

An intelligent person would have seen how obvious the statement was.

[Kenny McCormack]

In article >, gernot almen > wrote:
>> On a given day, the sun always sets earlier in Paris than in Nevada.
>
>Local or global time?

Local time is a political fiction.
Global (i.e., actual) time is all that matters.

[[email protected]]

On 29 Jun, 12:39, "El Maximo" > wrote:
> "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in ...
>
> > Matthias van Henk wrote:
> >> As more and more aviation business is operated from Asia and Chinese is
> >> the most spoken language in the world all communication should be made
> >> in Chinese then. :-)
>
> > If Won Wing Low had been the Father of Aviation, it could have been!
>
> > --
> > Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> > mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
>
> Allegedly, a Pan Am 727 flight waiting for start clearance in Munich
> overheard the following:
> Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
> Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."
> Lufthansa (in English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in
> Germany. Why must I speak English?"
> Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent): "Because
> you lost the bloody war."

Thats rubbish
All the german pilots speak english the whole time with the tower,
even on domestic flights in germany
and they all speak perfect english

[El Maximo]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> On 29 Jun, 12:39, "El Maximo" > wrote:
>> "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in
>> ...
>>
>> > Matthias van Henk wrote:
>> >> As more and more aviation business is operated from Asia and Chinese
>> >> is
>> >> the most spoken language in the world all communication should be made
>> >> in Chinese then. :-)
>>
>> > If Won Wing Low had been the Father of Aviation, it could have been!
>>
>> > --
>> > Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>> > mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
>>
>> Allegedly, a Pan Am 727 flight waiting for start clearance in Munich
>> overheard the following:
>> Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
>> Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."
>> Lufthansa (in English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in
>> Germany. Why must I speak English?"
>> Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent):
>> "Because
>> you lost the bloody war."
>
> Thats rubbish

But it's funny rubbish!

> All the german pilots speak english the whole time with the tower,
> even on domestic flights in germany
> and they all speak perfect english
>

[bertie the bunyip's brother via AviationKB.com]

Mxsmanic wrote:
>You're not supposed to require any communication with anyone other than ATC,
>so if you need to hear other pilots on the frequency, there is a problem.

you're an idiot

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200707/1

[Miguel Cruz]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Spehro Pefhany writes:
>> Are you sure he wasn't a Chinese pirate?
>
> There was no reason to believe that he might be a pirate.

Why do you think a pirate would go out of his way to give you clues that
he was a pirate?

miguel
--
Hit the road! Photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Detailed airport information: http://airport.u.nu

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Spehro Pefhany writes:
>
>> Are you sure he wasn't a Chinese pirate?
>
> There was no reason to believe that he might be a pirate.

Were you bending over, or was that one really that far over your head?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

"bertie the bunyip's brother via AviationKB.com" <u33403@uwe> wrote in
news:74a1cb14f7646@uwe:

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>>You're not supposed to require any communication with anyone other
>>than ATC, so if you need to hear other pilots on the frequency, there
>>is a problem.
>
> you're an idiot
>

Hey, long time. How's mom?

Bertie

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"ManhattanMan" > wrote in message
...
> That'd be fine, except he lies like a rug! Would anyone here buy a car
> from Mx?

I think I did once! ;-)
Crash Lander
--
http://straightandlevel1973.spaces.live.com/
I'm not always right,
But I'm never wrong!

[Thomas Borchert]

,

> and they all speak perfect english
>

bull! ;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Tom Peel[_2_]]

wrote:
> On 29 Jun, 12:39, "El Maximo" > wrote:
>
>>"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in ...
>>
>>
>>>Matthias van Henk wrote:
>>>
>>>>As more and more aviation business is operated from Asia and Chinese is
>>>>the most spoken language in the world all communication should be made
>>>>in Chinese then. :-)
>>
>>>If Won Wing Low had been the Father of Aviation, it could have been!
>>
>>>--
>>>Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>>>mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
>>
>>Allegedly, a Pan Am 727 flight waiting for start clearance in Munich
>>overheard the following:
Umm, which year did PanAm stop flying in Germany?

>>Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
>>Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."
>>Lufthansa (in English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in
>>Germany. Why must I speak English?"
>>Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent): "Because
>>you lost the bloody war."
>
>
> Thats rubbish
> All the german pilots speak english the whole time with the tower,
> even on domestic flights in germany
> and they all speak perfect english
>

Yes, just another haha silly Germans story.
It's not entirely true that all pilots speak Englsih, VFR sport pilots
can use German, but certainly all formal ATC communication is in English.
By comparision, the French use - guess what - French for ATC as well
as English. They have special rights, of course.

T.

[Mxsmanic]

El Maximo writes:

> Nobody said local time.

Nobody said Martian time. The natural assumption was local time.

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> and they all speak perfect english

Germans who speak perfect English are extremely rare.

[Tom Peel[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> writes:
>
>
>>and they all speak perfect english
>
>
> Germans who speak perfect English are extremely rare.

Mxsmanics who know anything are even rarer.

T.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> El Maximo writes:
>
>> Nobody said local time.
>
> Nobody said Martian time. The natural assumption was local time.
>

Only for a non-pilot


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> and they all speak perfect english
>
> Germans who speak perfect English are extremely rare.
>

Bwahawhawhahwahwhahwhahwhahwhahwhahwhahwhahwhahwha hwhahwhahwhahwhahwhahwhah
whahwh!

Bertie

[JohnT[_2_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> writes:
>
>> and they all speak perfect english
>
> Germans who speak perfect English are extremely rare.


How many German people do you know?
--

JohnT

[Thomas Borchert]

JohnT,

> How many German people do you know?
>

Simulated or real?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"JohnT" > wrote in message
. uk...
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
>> writes:
>>
>>> and they all speak perfect english
>>
>> Germans who speak perfect English are extremely rare.
>
>
> How many German people do you know?

Sheeit, Americans that speak perfect English is even more rare.

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> El Maximo writes:
>
>> Nobody said local time.
>
> Nobody said Martian time. The natural assumption was local time.

An intelligent person would have made no such assumption.

[Snowbird]

"Mxsmanic" wrote
>
>> and they all speak perfect english
>
> Germans who speak perfect English are extremely rare.

Not among aviators. Not as regards aviation language.

Anyway, Englishmen who speak perfect German are even rarer.

[TMOliver]

"Snowbird" > wrote in message
ti.fi...
>
> "Mxsmanic" wrote
>>
>>> and they all speak perfect english
>>
>> Germans who speak perfect English are extremely rare.

Not in WWII movies. Many Tsherman aviators speak it very well, some with
chummy British public school accents.

>
> Not among aviators. Not as regards aviation language.
>
> Anyway, Englishmen who speak perfect German are even rarer.

Depends on what you mean by perfect German. I was in Schulenburg the other
day eating barbecue, and the two old guys I was dining with, local farmers,
was a'sprachen it right smart. Up in West Station, at Pareya's pool hall
and domino parlor, I've relatives who speak Czech and English in the same
sentence, quicker and better after 6 or 7 pivos. Out at SPJST Cottonwood,
why they even sing in Czech.

As an old Carrier Air Intercept Controller, on NATO exercises, I had to be
prepared to control any Western language or fragments thereof and possess
enough Russian obscenities to shout at snoopers.

TMO

[NotABushSupporter]

Snowbird wrote:
> "Mxsmanic" wrote
>
>>>and they all speak perfect english
>>
>>Germans who speak perfect English are extremely rare.
>
>
> Not among aviators. Not as regards aviation language.
>
> Anyway, Englishmen who speak perfect German are even rarer.
>

Perhaps if Germany had won the war, it would be more important to them.

[Mxsmanic]

JohnT writes:

> How many German people do you know?

A lot. I live in a cosmopolitan city and I teach languages, so I meet German
people all the time and have a good idea of their English competence. Perfect
English is extraordinarily rare among Germans, just as it is among other
non-English-speaking groups.

[Mxsmanic]

Snowbird writes:

> Not among aviators. Not as regards aviation language.

There's no such thing as "aviation language."

> Anyway, Englishmen who speak perfect German are even rarer.

German isn't the international language of air traffic control.

[Mxsmanic]

Wolfgang Schwanke writes:

> Americans who speak perfect English are rare too.

They speak it far better than Germans, for obvious reasons.

[Tom Peel[_2_]]

Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
> Mxsmanic > wrote in
> :
>
>
writes:
>>
>>
>>>and they all speak perfect english
>>
>>Germans who speak perfect English are extremely rare.
>
>
> Americans who speak perfect English are rare too.
>
English who can speak perfect English (let alone spell it) are getting
pretty rare too.

T.

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...

> A lot. I live in a cosmopolitan city and I teach languages

Languages, plural? Somehow I thing you're lying again.

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Snowbird writes:
>
>> Not among aviators. Not as regards aviation language.
>
> There's no such thing as "aviation language."

You don't fly, so you wouldn't know.

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Wolfgang Schwanke writes:
>
>> Americans who speak perfect English are rare too.
>
> They speak it far better than Germans, for obvious reasons.

Not obvious to me. Every german I know speaks perfect english, although with
an accent.

[EridanMan]

On Jun 30, 12:14 am, Dallas > wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:08:16 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:
> > As hard as it may be for residents of the city to accept, there is more to the
> > world outside of Dallas.
>
> Tell ya what...
>
> Why don't you make a list of all the foreign countries you've been to and
> I'll respond with a list of my own and we'll see who's got the widest world
> view.
>
> --
> Dallas

Dallas,

Absolutely no offense intended, but Mx is mostly right on this one.

The number of Dallas Area stations speaking Spanish, or, hell, the
percentage of US Residents Speaking Spanish is utterly irrelevant when
it comes to measuring or comparing its relative value as an
international language.

To think that the language distribution in anyones particular region
of residence has any bearing what-so-ever on how that language shows
nothing but an over-valued sense of local importance.

Of course, in the same breath that Mx is criticizing you guys, he is
committing the same fallacy- asserting that French is an international
language on a par with English... The only people in the world who
hold French in that regard are the French, in their classic
nationalistic delusion of relevance (not to mention the centuries old
****ing contest with England they refuse to admit they lost when they
surrendered during WWII).

That said, English's standing a the world standard language of
business is far from assured, however. While the 20th century was
Exceedingly good to the British and Americans, it remains to be seen
whether or not they can retain their dominance, especially if China
turns into the economic power-house it aspires too (especially if they
succeed in undermining American Economic power in the process, as they
are actively working to do).

[EridanMan]

> So that would come out to, what, 0.4%?

Ok, I have to admit, you made me laugh out loud with that one.

> France has some of the worst English instruction, although all the
> Latin countries of Europe are very poor in English.

Of course they do, teaching English would be tantamount to admitting
that the French lost their 500-year-old ****ing contest with England
started by King Henry VIII's lack of male sperm.

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...

> People can study a language for years without learning it.

Mostly, they find their instructor is incompetent long before they spend
years studying.

Incompetant people can claim to teach it without any of their students
actually learning anything. Fortunately, unless the teacher impersonater is
exceedingly stupid, they realize that they're not making the same amount of
money as the real teachers and find something else to do.

> France has some of the worst English instruction

I don't doubt it. I suspect there are no real standards one must meet in
order to claim to be an english teacher in France.

[William Black[_1_]]

"EridanMan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> So that would come out to, what, 0.4%?
>
> Ok, I have to admit, you made me laugh out loud with that one.
>
>> France has some of the worst English instruction, although all the
>> Latin countries of Europe are very poor in English.
>
> Of course they do, teaching English would be tantamount to admitting
> that the French lost their 500-year-old ****ing contest with England
> started by King Henry VIII's lack of male sperm.
>

???


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[Martin D. Pay]

On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 00:17:36 +0300, "Snowbird"
> mangled uncounted electrons thus:

>
>"Mxsmanic" wrote
>>
>>> and they all speak perfect english
>>
>> Germans who speak perfect English are extremely rare.
>
>Not among aviators. Not as regards aviation language.
>
>Anyway, Englishmen who speak perfect German are even rarer.

<grin> You all overlook the fact that English speaking perfect
English are also extremely rare...

Martin D. Pay
Yes, I'm English - and I frequently wonder at the atrocities
perpetrated on our mother-tongue by my fellow citizens...

[Jim Logajan]

Martin D. Pay > wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 00:17:36 +0300, "Snowbird"
> > mangled uncounted electrons thus:
>> Anyway, Englishmen who speak perfect German are even rarer.
>
> <grin> You all overlook the fact that English speaking perfect
> English are also extremely rare...
>
> Martin D. Pay
> Yes, I'm English - and I frequently wonder at the atrocities
> perpetrated on our mother-tongue by my fellow citizens...

So what is the "Perfect English" way to pronounce "tomato"?
Is "ain't" considered a word in "Perfect English"?
For that matter, which accent is "Perfect English"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_accents_of_English_speakers
http://www.otago.ac.nz/anthropology/Linguistic/Sounds/Sounds.html
http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/collections/dialects/

And just who defines "Perfect English" and what is their e-mail address?

(Big wink on all the above.)

[george]

On Jul 5, 11:22 pm, "El Maximo" > wrote:
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > A lot. I live in a cosmopolitan city and I teach languages
>
> Languages, plural? Somehow I thing you're lying again.

His knowledge of language/s excludes comprehension of his own

[JohnT[_2_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> JohnT writes:
>
>> How many German people do you know?
>
> A lot. I live in a cosmopolitan city and I teach languages, so I meet
> German
> people all the time and have a good idea of their English competence.
> Perfect
> English is extraordinarily rare among Germans, just as it is among other
> non-English-speaking groups.


Perfect English is extraordinarily rare among people whose native language
it is. I haven't fully mastered my own language and, certainly, you haven't
either. So it is difficult to ascertain wht point you are attempting to
make. BTW, what are your qualifications for teaching languages?
--

JohnT

[DaveM]

On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 15:29:23 -0000, EridanMan > wrote:

>Of course they do, teaching English would be tantamount to admitting
>that the French lost their 500-year-old ****ing contest with England
>started by King Henry VIII's lack of male sperm.

Hmmm. I think you must be using a very specific definition of "England" and
"France". There's been history between the inhabitants of modern-day England
and France over the last 1000 years or so.

DaveM

[DaveM]

On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 22:41:56 -0700, NotABushSupporter > wrote:

>Snowbird wrote:

>> Anyway, Englishmen who speak perfect German are even rarer.

>Perhaps if Germany had won the war, it would be more important to them.

Of course it would. After all, it would be needed to conduct business in the
USA.

DaveM

[NotABushSupporter]

EridanMan wrote:

> Of course, in the same breath that Mx is criticizing you guys, he is
> committing the same fallacy- asserting that French is an international
> language on a par with English... The only people in the world who
> hold French in that regard are the French, in their classic
> nationalistic delusion of relevance

It should be noted, that my US passport is in English and ...... guess
what? Oh yeah, French! I know this is true for at least some other
countries.

[TMOliver]

"Jim Logajan" > wrote ...

>
> And just who defines "Perfect English" and what is their e-mail address?
>
> (Big wink on all the above.)

I don' gnow from "Perfect", but old aviators and those forced to converse
with them often leave clues like...."Niner". Really suave sorts even use
quaint expressions such as...."Bingo Button 13", while super sophisticates
will gravely pronounce for all to hear, witticisms such as...."Allstar 503,
at the 90, down and dirty, 3.2....."

[NotABushSupporter]

TMOliver wrote:

> "Jim Logajan" > wrote ...
>
>
>>And just who defines "Perfect English" and what is their e-mail address?
>>
>>(Big wink on all the above.)
>
>
> I don' gnow from "Perfect", but old aviators and those forced to converse
> with them often leave clues like...."Niner". Really suave sorts even use
> quaint expressions such as...."Bingo Button 13", while super sophisticates
> will gravely pronounce for all to hear, witticisms such as...."Allstar 503,
> at the 90, down and dirty, 3.2....."
>

Do they all use numbers like "tree" and "fife"?

[Thomas Borchert]

NotABushSupporter,

> Do they all use numbers like "tree" and "fife"?
>

Actually, "tree", "fife" and "niner" are all examples for standard
aviation phraseology. Which brings us kind of full circle.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[EridanMan]

Ok, Ok... My attempt at humor failed miserably;)

[Martin D. Pay]

On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:50:17 -0000, Jim Logajan
> mangled uncounted electrons thus:

>Martin D. Pay > wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 00:17:36 +0300, "Snowbird"
>> > mangled uncounted electrons thus:
>>> Anyway, Englishmen who speak perfect German are even rarer.
>>
>> <grin> You all overlook the fact that English speaking perfect
>> English are also extremely rare...
>>
>> Martin D. Pay
>> Yes, I'm English - and I frequently wonder at the atrocities
>> perpetrated on our mother-tongue by my fellow citizens...
>
>So what is the "Perfect English" way to pronounce "tomato"?

The English way - long 'a' in the middle. (Heaven knows where the
Americans found their pronunciation!)

>Is "ain't" considered a word in "Perfect English"?

It used to be. It still is, in America.

>For that matter, which accent is "Perfect English"?

It used to be called 'BBC English', 'the King's/Queen's English'
or (more correctly now) 'Received Pronunciation'...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation


>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_accents_of_English_speakers
>http://www.otago.ac.nz/anthropology/Linguistic/Sounds/Sounds.html
>http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/collections/dialects/

We have a wonderful variety of dialects. It's almost true that a
Geordie (Newcastle-upon-Tyne) has trouble understanding a Cockney
(London, of course) - and vice versa! And as for anyone from
southern England understanding someone from central Glasgow...
^_-

>And just who defines "Perfect English" and what is their e-mail address?

The BBC, once upon a time. Back in days of Lord Reith, when radio
presenters had to wear dinner jackets...

>(Big wink on all the above.)

Absolutely! ^_^ ^_^ ^_^

Martin D. Pay
Talking about language is almost as much fun as using it!

[NotABushSupporter]

Martin D. Pay wrote:

> On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:50:17 -0000, Jim Logajan
> > mangled uncounted electrons thus:
>
>
>>Martin D. Pay > wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 00:17:36 +0300, "Snowbird"
> mangled uncounted electrons thus:
>>>
>>>>Anyway, Englishmen who speak perfect German are even rarer.
>>>
>>><grin> You all overlook the fact that English speaking perfect
>>>English are also extremely rare...
>>>
>>>Martin D. Pay
>>>Yes, I'm English - and I frequently wonder at the atrocities
>>>perpetrated on our mother-tongue by my fellow citizens...
>>
>>So what is the "Perfect English" way to pronounce "tomato"?
>
>
> The English way - long 'a' in the middle. (Heaven knows where the
> Americans found their pronunciation!)
>

The most used pronunciation in America is with a long 'a'.

[DaveM]

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 23:17:14 -0700, NotABushSupporter > wrote:

>Martin D. Pay wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:50:17 -0000, Jim Logajan
>> > mangled uncounted electrons thus:

>>>So what is the "Perfect English" way to pronounce "tomato"?

>> The English way - long 'a' in the middle. (Heaven knows where the
>> Americans found their pronunciation!)

>The most used pronunciation in America is with a long 'a'.

Let's not get into this. Unless there's some deep linguistic reason it seems
reasonable "tomato" and "potato" would be pronounced identically bar the
first syllable, but we don't in England. Similarly, for reasons not
immediately obvious, the Americans pronounce "lever" and "fever"
differently.

DaveM

[NotABushSupporter]

DaveM wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 23:17:14 -0700, NotABushSupporter > wrote:
>
>
>>Martin D. Pay wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:50:17 -0000, Jim Logajan
> mangled uncounted electrons thus:
>
>
>>>>So what is the "Perfect English" way to pronounce "tomato"?
>
>
>>>The English way - long 'a' in the middle. (Heaven knows where the
>>>Americans found their pronunciation!)
>
>
>>The most used pronunciation in America is with a long 'a'.
>
>
> Let's not get into this. Unless there's some deep linguistic reason it seems
> reasonable "tomato" and "potato" would be pronounced identically bar the
> first syllable, but we don't in England. Similarly, for reasons not
> immediately obvious, the Americans pronounce "lever" and "fever"
> differently.
>

Of course, there is always the confusion with "dessert" and "desert"

[DaveM]

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:20:31 -0700, NotABushSupporter > wrote:

>Of course, there is always the confusion with "dessert" and "desert"

Now you're talking my language! My personal favourite is "complement" and
"compliment"

DaveM

[NotABushSupporter]

DaveM wrote:

> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:20:31 -0700, NotABushSupporter > wrote:
>
>
>>Of course, there is always the confusion with "dessert" and "desert"
>
>
> Now you're talking my language! My personal favourite is "complement" and
> "compliment"
>
> DaveM

But, we pronounce "compliment" the way it would be expected to be
pronounced. "Dessert" and "desert" are pronounced the reverse of what
would be expected.

[Mxsmanic]

El Maximo writes:

> Languages, plural?

Yes. I speak more than one and can teach all the languages I speak.

[Mxsmanic]

JohnT writes:

> Perfect English is extraordinarily rare among people whose native language
> it is.

It is exceptional, but not extraordinarily rare.

> I haven't fully mastered my own language and, certainly, you haven't
> either.

Actually, I do very well.

[Mxsmanic]

NotABushSupporter writes:

> Do they all use numbers like "tree" and "fife"?

Tree, fife, and niner are all recommended standards for radio communication,
and some people do indeed use them on the radio--especially niner.

[Mxsmanic]

Martin D. Pay writes:

> It used to be called 'BBC English', 'the King's/Queen's English'
> or (more correctly now) 'Received Pronunciation'...

All of these are different, and none of them is perfect.

[Mxsmanic]

El Maximo writes:

> Not obvious to me. Every german I know speaks perfect english, although with
> an accent.

I hardly know any Germans who speak perfect English.

[Mxsmanic]

EridanMan writes:

> Of course, in the same breath that Mx is criticizing you guys, he is
> committing the same fallacy- asserting that French is an international
> language on a par with English... The only people in the world who
> hold French in that regard are the French, in their classic
> nationalistic delusion of relevance (not to mention the centuries old
> ****ing contest with England they refuse to admit they lost when they
> surrendered during WWII).

Not true. For centuries French was an international language of diplomacy and
negotiation, and this trend persists, although it is fading in favor of
English. French is also one of the most popular second languages to be taught
in schools (after English). For this reason, the geographic distribution of
French speakers is very homogenous on the planet, making it a good language
for international use.

> That said, English's standing a the world standard language of
> business is far from assured, however. While the 20th century was
> Exceedingly good to the British and Americans, it remains to be seen
> whether or not they can retain their dominance, especially if China
> turns into the economic power-house it aspires too (especially if they
> succeed in undermining American Economic power in the process, as they
> are actively working to do).

China is unlikely to attempt to impose its language upon anyone else, for
reasons I have already partially explained.

[Mxsmanic]

El Maximo writes:

> Mostly, they find their instructor is incompetent long before they spend
> years studying.

Many instructors are incompetent, but many students lack motivation as well.
Either may prevent a student from gaining competence in a language, even after
many years of study. And there are other factors.

> Incompetant people can claim to teach it without any of their students
> actually learning anything.

Yes. And students can claim to study it without actually learning anything as
well.

> Fortunately, unless the teacher impersonater is
> exceedingly stupid, they realize that they're not making the same amount of
> money as the real teachers and find something else to do.

Many of the worst teachers have impeccable credentials and are well paid, and
vice versa.

> I don't doubt it. I suspect there are no real standards one must meet in
> order to claim to be an english teacher in France.

Read _Sorbonne Confidential_.

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic > wrote:
> El Maximo writes:

> > Languages, plural?

> Yes. I speak more than one and can teach all the languages I speak.

And apparently understands subtleties in none.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[NotABushSupporter]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> El Maximo writes:
>
>
>>Languages, plural?
>
>
> Yes. I speak more than one and can teach all the languages I speak.

Apparently, you speak much better than you write.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

Mxsmanic > wrote:

> EridanMan writes:
>
> > Of course, in the same breath that Mx is criticizing you guys, he is
> > committing the same fallacy- asserting that French is an international
> > language on a par with English... The only people in the world who
> > hold French in that regard are the French, in their classic
> > nationalistic delusion of relevance (not to mention the centuries old
> > ****ing contest with England they refuse to admit they lost when they
> > surrendered during WWII).
>
> Not true. For centuries French was an international language of diplomacy and
> negotiation, and this trend persists, although it is fading in favor of
> English.

It faded in that respect long ago actually. Even close to France, in the
EU, most diplomats from dfferent countries will converse in English.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

Mxsmanic > wrote:

> JohnT writes:
[]
> > I haven't fully mastered my own language and, certainly, you haven't
> > either.
>
> Actually, I do very well.

Yes, but talking Bollock isn't that hard.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[DaveM]

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 18:12:59 -0700, NotABushSupporter > wrote:

>DaveM wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:20:31 -0700, NotABushSupporter > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Of course, there is always the confusion with "dessert" and "desert"
>>
>>
>> Now you're talking my language! My personal favourite is "complement" and
>> "compliment"

>But, we pronounce "compliment" the way it would be expected to be
>pronounced. "Dessert" and "desert" are pronounced the reverse of what
>would be expected.

Are they? I'd never given it any thought.

DaveM

[Mxsmanic]

NotABushSupporter writes:

> Apparently, you speak much better than you write.

It depends on many factors.

[Mxsmanic]

David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:

> It faded in that respect long ago actually. Even close to France, in the
> EU, most diplomats from dfferent countries will converse in English.

And many also know French--which is good, because French is still used a lot
in writing.

[EridanMan]

> Not true. For centuries French was an international language of diplomacy and
> negotiation, and this trend persists, although it is fading in favor of
> English.

Indeed this is my point. French was without a, if not the crucial
international language for many centuries. That said, its relevance
today is waning. French remains relevant only out of historical
influence, there are few remaining socio-economic factors still
driving it, and as such, its downward slide to 'local dialect' is all
but inevitable... Much to the dismay of many a French nationalist.

> French is also one of the most popular second languages to be taught
> in schools (after English). For this reason, the geographic
> distribution of French speakers is very homogenous on the planet,
> making it a good language for international use.

True, but again, simple efficiency dictates that an international
'common' language is best served if there is only one, and as uniform
as the geographic distribution of french speakers may be, English
still remains far more common and 'useful', despite whatever flaws you
may find in its capacity for expression.

I'm not saying that English is a 'better' language than French, I am
merely saying that the tides of global society have shifted since
French enjoyed its standing as the 'global common tongue'. Without
substantial industrial or economic influence to shift them back, the
'global' relevance of French will continue to decline back down to the
level of any other First World European Language (I.E, similar in
global value to German or Italian).

> China is unlikely to attempt to impose its language upon anyone else, for
> reasons I have already partially explained.

I read your reasons and I have heard them echoed in my local circle.
China is in a fascinating position however in global socio-economic
context. Yes there are some potential obstacles for Chinese to
overcome, but that said, the same socio-economic factors that have
undermined the value of French are swinging tremendously in favor of
Chinese... Whether or not the language and society will be able to
overcome its flaws and take advantage of these trends remains to be
seen... Especially as the crest of the English wave breaks, and the
U.S, grows less and less relevant in the global economy.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

Mxsmanic > wrote:



> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
> [i]
> > It faded in that respect long ago actually. Even close to France, in the
> > EU, most diplomats from dfferent countries will converse in English.
>
> And many also know French--which is good, because French is still used a lot
> in writing.

Many EU diplomats know German too- probably far more than French now
since the new accession states entered in the last few years. French is
only useful in world terms in the sense that learning languages is a
_good_ thing, and there's a great deal of French language culture etc.
However, as a diplomatic language, or in any other meaningful 'world'
sense, it has long since lost any importance. Next to English, Arabic,
Mandarin, Spanish and Hindi are far more important than French.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...

> Many of the worst teachers have impeccable credentials and are well paid,
> and
> vice versa.

Whiners who can't make it usually use that kind of rationalization when the
truth is they simply can't cut it.


>
> Read _Sorbonne Confidential_.

Request denied.

[Mxsmanic]

David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:

> Next to English, Arabic,
> Mandarin, Spanish and Hindi are far more important than French.

It's the other way around. If you can't find someone who speaks English, the
next language you try is French.

[Mxsmanic]

EridanMan writes:

> Indeed this is my point. French was without a, if not the crucial
> international language for many centuries. That said, its relevance
> today is waning.

It remains vastly more relevant than Spanish or Chinese, both of which are
highly localized geographically.

> True, but again, simple efficiency dictates that an international
> 'common' language is best served if there is only one, and as uniform
> as the geographic distribution of french speakers may be, English
> still remains far more common and 'useful', despite whatever flaws you
> may find in its capacity for expression.

I never said that French was preferable to English, only that it is the next
best choice after English. Neither language is better than the other
fundamentally; it is purely a question of how many people speak each language,
and where they reside.

> ... Especially as the crest of the English wave breaks, and the
> U.S, grows less and less relevant in the global economy.

The English wave is not being driven by the U.S., and is nowhere near breaking
any time soon. The U.S. could disappear and English would not lose any
significant momentum now.

[Mxsmanic]

El Maximo writes:

> Whiners who can't make it usually use that kind of rationalization when the
> truth is they simply can't cut it.

I've already recommended reading on the subject. There's a reason why so few
French people can speak any useful English despite years of formal education
in the language.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

Mxsmanic > wrote:

> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
> > Next to English, Arabic,
> > Mandarin, Spanish and Hindi are far more important than French.
>
> It's the other way around. If you can't find someone who speaks English, the
> next language you try is French.

The next language _you_ try maybe. It's rarely of any use to me when I
travel (outside French speaking countries)- even in Europe. Despite
being an American, you have adopted a very French perspective, but it's
******** if you travel to most countries outside France.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[DaveM]

On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 16:28:09 +0100, (David Horne, _the_
chancellor (*)) wrote:

>Mandarin, Spanish and Hindi are far more important than French.

Hindi? One of the current strengths of Indian workers is that the Lingua
Franca of India is English. Hindi may be the major language, but I'm told by
Indian colleagues that English is the language of education (or at the very
least, in the schools and universities those colleagues attended).

DaveM

[[email protected]]

For what it's worth, at least the scientific courses in universities
in Sweden were being taught in English in the late 60s.

Had been German, I was told, until after WW2


On Jul 8, 7:09 pm, DaveM > wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 16:28:09 +0100, (David Horne, _the_
>
> chancellor (*)) wrote:
> >Mandarin, Spanish and Hindi are far more important than French.
>
> Hindi? One of the current strengths of Indian workers is that the Lingua
> Franca of India is English. Hindi may be the major language, but I'm told by
> Indian colleagues that English is the language of education (or at the very
> least, in the schools and universities those colleagues attended).
>
> DaveM

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
>> Next to English, Arabic,
>> Mandarin, Spanish and Hindi are far more important than French.
>
> It's the other way around. If you can't find someone who speaks English,
> the
> next language you try is French.

That probably works in France.....

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> El Maximo writes:
>
>> Whiners who can't make it usually use that kind of rationalization when
>> the
>> truth is they simply can't cut it.
>
> I've already recommended reading on the subject. There's a reason why so
> few
> French people can speak any useful English despite years of formal
> education
> in the language.

Your past history lead me to ignore anything you might 'recommend'. I
suspect any intelligent person would do the same.

With english teachers like you in the system, I'm suprised ANY french people
can speak English.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

DaveM > wrote:

> On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 16:28:09 +0100, (David Horne, _the_
> chancellor (*)) wrote:
>
> >Mandarin, Spanish and Hindi are far more important than French.
>
> Hindi? One of the current strengths of Indian workers is that the Lingua
> Franca of India is English. Hindi may be the major language, but I'm told by
> Indian colleagues that English is the language of education (or at the very
> least, in the schools and universities those colleagues attended).

Yes, you're absolutely right that the lingua franca of business in India
is English, but Hindi is still an important language in terms of actual
numbers- I shouldn't perhaps have included it in the list- except to say
that, given the growing importance of the Indian economy, I think that
Hindi will gain groun too.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[Miguel Cruz]

(David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:
> DaveM > wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 16:28:09 +0100, (David Horne, _the_
> > chancellor (*)) wrote:
> >
> > >Mandarin, Spanish and Hindi are far more important than French.
> >
> > Hindi? One of the current strengths of Indian workers is that the Lingua
> > Franca of India is English. Hindi may be the major language, but I'm told by
> > Indian colleagues that English is the language of education (or at the very
> > least, in the schools and universities those colleagues attended).
>
> Yes, you're absolutely right that the lingua franca of business in India
> is English, but Hindi is still an important language in terms of actual
> numbers- I shouldn't perhaps have included it in the list- except to say
> that, given the growing importance of the Indian economy, I think that
> Hindi will gain groun too.

Many Indians would prefer to speak English over Hindi, a language which
they feel was imposed on them as a product of northern Indian chauvenism.

I think the main linguistic consequence of India's economic growth will
be an improvement in the standard of English throughout India.

miguel
--
Hit the road! Photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Detailed airport information: http://airport.u.nu

[Miguel Cruz]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
> > Next to English, Arabic,
> > Mandarin, Spanish and Hindi are far more important than French.
>
> It's the other way around. If you can't find someone who speaks English, the
> next language you try is French.

Only if you're in France, or have little interest in establishing
communication.

miguel
--
Hit the road! Photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Detailed airport information: http://airport.u.nu

[Miguel Cruz]

NotABushSupporter > wrote:
> EridanMan wrote:
>
> > Of course, in the same breath that Mx is criticizing you guys, he is
> > committing the same fallacy- asserting that French is an international
> > language on a par with English... The only people in the world who
> > hold French in that regard are the French, in their classic
> > nationalistic delusion of relevance
>
> It should be noted, that my US passport is in English and ...... guess
> what? Oh yeah, French! I know this is true for at least some other
> countries.

Older US passports were in English and French. About a decade ago, they
added Spanish (for a total of 3 languages). I expect the next change
will be the disappearance of French.

miguel
--
Hit the road! Photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Detailed airport information: http://airport.u.nu

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

Miguel Cruz > wrote:

> (David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:
> > DaveM > wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 16:28:09 +0100, (David Horne, _the_
> > > chancellor (*)) wrote:
> > >
> > > >Mandarin, Spanish and Hindi are far more important than French.
> > >
> > > Hindi? One of the current strengths of Indian workers is that the
> > > Lingua Franca of India is English. Hindi may be the major language,
> > > but I'm told by Indian colleagues that English is the language of
> > > education (or at the very least, in the schools and universities those
> > > colleagues attended).
> >
> > Yes, you're absolutely right that the lingua franca of business in India
> > is English, but Hindi is still an important language in terms of actual
> > numbers- I shouldn't perhaps have included it in the list- except to say
> > that, given the growing importance of the Indian economy, I think that
> > Hindi will gain groun too.
>
> Many Indians would prefer to speak English over Hindi, a language which
> they feel was imposed on them as a product of northern Indian chauvenism.
>
> I think the main linguistic consequence of India's economic growth will
> be an improvement in the standard of English throughout India.

Fair enough- but India still has over 3 times as many people speaking
Hindi as a native language than the number speaking English as a
secondary one.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[Miguel Cruz]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> El Maximo writes:
>
> > Not obvious to me. Every german I know speaks perfect english, although
> > with
> > an accent.
>
> I hardly know any Germans who speak perfect English.

You live in France.

I live in a third country, neither Germany nor France, but with a large
number of expats from both.

Most of the Germans I know arrived here with decent or fluent English
and within a few years were perfectly fluent.

Most of the French I know arrived here with almost no usable English and
had to spend evenings doing tuition in order to catch up. All but one
have thick accents and use very strange constructions on a very regular
basis.

On the other hand, they are much more interested in the language and its
eccentricities than the Germans, who seem to just regard English as a
basic skill to be mastered and then taken for granted.

miguel
--
Hit the road! Photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Detailed airport information: http://airport.u.nu

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> El Maximo writes:
>
>> Not obvious to me. Every german I know speaks perfect english, although
>> with
>> an accent.
>
> I hardly know any Germans who speak perfect English.

The fact that you hardly know them not surprising. The Germans I know are
also pretty bright, therefore they would steer clear of the likes of you.

[Mxsmanic]

David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:

> The next language _you_ try maybe. It's rarely of any use to me when I
> travel (outside French speaking countries)- even in Europe. Despite
> being an American, you have adopted a very French perspective, but it's
> ******** if you travel to most countries outside France.

There's nothing specifically French about the perspective, although I'm sure
it pleases the French. I've still had cases in which I've been asked to speak
to executives from non-French-speaking countries in French rather than English
because they knew French far better (having studied it in school).

There are many people who study only French (particularly if their first
language is already English), or both English and French. French has long
been extremely popular as a foreign language.

[Mxsmanic]

El Maximo writes:

> That probably works in France.....

Oddly enough, it works throughout a large part of the world.

[Mxsmanic]

Miguel Cruz writes:

> Only if you're in France, or have little interest in establishing
> communication.

No, I was talking about interactions worldwide. French is the most popular
second language after English, so most people with an education have studied
one or the other (or both).

[Mxsmanic]

David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:

> Fair enough- but India still has over 3 times as many people speaking
> Hindi as a native language than the number speaking English as a
> secondary one.

Not so. There are far more than one billion speakers of English in the world.

[Mxsmanic]

El Maximo writes:

> Your past history lead me to ignore anything you might 'recommend'. I
> suspect any intelligent person would do the same.

Read this again, carefully.

> With english teachers like you in the system, I'm suprised ANY french people
> can speak English.

The English teachers they have in public school are not like me, and as a
result they cannot speak English after leaving school. They then come to
people like me to actually learn the language. It's unfortunate for the
country but it does keep hundreds of private language schools in business.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

Mxsmanic > wrote:

> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
> > The next language _you_ try maybe. It's rarely of any use to me when I
> > travel (outside French speaking countries)- even in Europe. Despite
> > being an American, you have adopted a very French perspective, but it's
> > ******** if you travel to most countries outside France.
>
> There's nothing specifically French about the perspective, although I'm sure
> it pleases the French.

It's a skewed perspective with no basis in the reality of the world
today.

> I've still had cases in which I've been asked to speak
> to executives from non-French-speaking countries in French rather than English
> because they knew French far better (having studied it in school).

There are cases where non-German native executives would rather you
speak to them in German than English too. So what? It's the numbers that
matter.

> There are many people who study only French (particularly if their first
> language is already English),

See below!

> or both English and French. French has long
> been extremely popular as a foreign language.

Extremely popular is meaningless. In the US, for example, which is the
most populous English speaking country in the world, high school
students are now learning Spanish at a rate almost 4 times that of
French. In the UK too, learning French as a second language is seen as
less important than it used to be.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

Mxsmanic > wrote:

> Miguel Cruz writes:
>
> > Only if you're in France, or have little interest in establishing
> > communication.
>
> No, I was talking about interactions worldwide. French is the most popular
> second language after English,

What is the evidence for this?

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

Mxsmanic > wrote:

> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
> > Fair enough- but India still has over 3 times as many people speaking
> > Hindi as a native language than the number speaking English as a
> > secondary one.
>
> Not so. There are far more than one billion speakers of English in the world.

I didn't claim otherwise. Re-read the above.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Miguel Cruz" > wrote

> On the other hand, they are much more interested in the language and its
> eccentricities than the Germans, who seem to just regard English as a
> basic skill to be mastered and then taken for granted.

Today, most Germans learn English in school from an early age, and speak very
good "British" English.
--
Jim in NC

[Mxsmanic]

David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:

> It's a skewed perspective with no basis in the reality of the world
> today.

You're entitled to your opinion.

> There are cases where non-German native executives would rather you
> speak to them in German than English too.

For these executives, French was not their native language.

> Extremely popular is meaningless. In the US, for example, which is the
> most populous English speaking country in the world, high school
> students are now learning Spanish at a rate almost 4 times that of
> French.

Spanish has more practical value than French in the U.S., and it's easier to
learn, at least at lower levels and in terms of pronunciation.

> In the UK too, learning French as a second language is seen as
> less important than it used to be.

But they are still learning mostly French, aren't they?

[Mxsmanic]

David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:

> What is the evidence for this?

The statistics I've seen in the past. My own experience mirrors the
statistics.

[Mxsmanic]

David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:

> Mxsmanic > wrote:
>
> > David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
> >
> > > Fair enough- but India still has over 3 times as many people speaking
> > > Hindi as a native language than the number speaking English as a
> > > secondary one.
> >
> > Not so. There are far more than one billion speakers of English in the world.
>
> I didn't claim otherwise. Re-read the above.

I did. "Speaking English as a secondary one" means all speakers of English,
not just native speakers, and there are far more than one billion such people
in the world. This greatly outnumbers the number of native speakers of Hindi.
Thus, claiming the opposite--to say nothing of claiming that there are three
times as many native Hindi speakers as English speakers--is clearly incorrect.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

Mxsmanic > wrote:

> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
> > It's a skewed perspective with no basis in the reality of the world
> > today.
>
> You're entitled to your opinion.
>
> > There are cases where non-German native executives would rather you
> > speak to them in German than English too.
>
> For these executives, French was not their native language.

Same with the non-German native executives.

>
> > Extremely popular is meaningless. In the US, for example, which is the
> > most populous English speaking country in the world, high school
> > students are now learning Spanish at a rate almost 4 times that of
> > French.
>
> Spanish has more practical value than French in the U.S., and it's easier to
> learn, at least at lower levels and in terms of pronunciation.
>
> > In the UK too, learning French as a second language is seen as
> > less important than it used to be.
>
> But they are still learning mostly French, aren't they?

Less than before, which reflects a European wide trend, where French at
higher level is 28% compared to German at 20%. That's the point. In any
case, you suggested that native english speakers learned French- the US
alone blows that 'statistic' out of the water. In Australia too,
Japanese has surpassed French as the most widely studied language.


--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

Mxsmanic > wrote:

> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
> > What is the evidence for this?
>
> The statistics I've seen in the past.

So, none then.

> My own experience mirrors the
> statistics.

I don't think reasonable people would consider you to have much
experience.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[Doug Semler]

On Jul 9, 8:19 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
> > Mxsmanic > wrote:
>
> > > David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
> > > > Fair enough- but India still has over 3 times as many people speaking
> > > > Hindi as a native language than the number speaking English as a
> > > > secondary one.
>
> > > Not so. There are far more than one billion speakers of English in the world.
>
> > I didn't claim otherwise. Re-read the above.
>
> I did. "Speaking English as a secondary one" means all speakers of English,
> not just native speakers, and there are far more than one billion such people
> in the world. This greatly outnumbers the number of native speakers of Hindi.
> Thus, claiming the opposite--to say nothing of claiming that there are three
> times as many native Hindi speakers as English speakers--is clearly incorrect.

Oh the irony of it all (obviously Engrish isn't your first language.
Must be French...). Don't read context into the sentence where there
is none:

India still has over 3 times as many people speaking Hindi as a native
language than the number [of Indians] speaking English as a
secondary [language].

I don't know why you think 1 billion people speaking english as a
second language has anything to do with the sentence.

Sheesh. Glad you weren't *my* language teacher.

(As an aside: What about Russian as a second language? It's an (iirc)
ICAO language; in terms of area Russia is the largest country on the
planet, and it has a nice big population. Plus it's pretty damned
easy to read. Although, on the other hand, 10 syllable words are
tough on the radio :)

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>
> Read this again, carefully.
>

You have never given me cause to follow your instructions.

You have always given me cause be highly skeptical of any of your 'advice'.

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Miguel Cruz writes:
>
>> Only if you're in France, or have little interest in establishing
>> communication.
>
> No, I was talking about interactions worldwide.

You despise leaving your apartment, why would anyone think you know anything
about 'interactions worldwide"?

The only experience you have worldwide is the worldwide web. That's not
reality.

[William Black[_1_]]

"David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" > wrote in message
...

> Fair enough- but India still has over 3 times as many people speaking
> Hindi as a native language than the number speaking English as a
> secondary one.

Nope.

About 300 million Indians speak some Hindi.

About 700 million speak some English

Mind you, in a lot of cases for both languages it's the taxi driver's
'where to?'

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[William Black[_1_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
>> Fair enough- but India still has over 3 times as many people speaking
>> Hindi as a native language than the number speaking English as a
>> secondary one.
>
> Not so. There are far more than one billion speakers of English in the
> world.

And about two thirds of them are in India...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

William Black > wrote:

> "David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Fair enough- but India still has over 3 times as many people speaking
> > Hindi as a native language than the number speaking English as a
> > secondary one.
>
> Nope.
>
> About 300 million Indians speak some Hindi.
>
> About 700 million speak some English

I was talking about India.

> Mind you, in a lot of cases for both languages it's the taxi driver's
> 'where to?'

Well, I can answer that in Hindi! :)

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

William Black > wrote:

> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
> > David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
> >
> >> Fair enough- but India still has over 3 times as many people speaking
> >> Hindi as a native language than the number speaking English as a
> >> secondary one.
> >
> > Not so. There are far more than one billion speakers of English in the
> > world.
>
> And about two thirds of them are in India...

Where are you getting that figure?

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[TMOliver]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
>> Next to English, Arabic,
>> Mandarin, Spanish and Hindi are far more important than French.
>
> It's the other way around. If you can't find someone who speaks English,
> the
> next language you try is French.

Other than in South Louisiana (and then with mixed and amusing result), I
certainly wouldn't try that progression in the US (and if you think so, it's
even more obvious how "out of touch" you are. Second choice would certainly
be Spanish, even in Washington, DC, trusting that in the crowd there are
some for whom it's the first language and for others learned as needed in
supervisory, commercial or self-interest capacity. While the "Taquerias" of
Chicago line the way to Midway Airport, the sounds of Spanish are apparent
inside the fortresses inside the Loop (although spoken mostly by the hired
help).

Back in the early 60s, when I did a bit of Navy courier duty, French was not
only Tehran's second language, it was spoken by most of the elite or those
pretending to be. Even with anti-US feelings these days, English is by far
the prevailing second language in the country.

TMO

[TMOliver]

"El Maximo" > wrote ...
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote...
>> El Maximo writes:
>>
>>> Not obvious to me. Every german I know speaks perfect english, although
>>> with
>>> an accent.
>>
>> I hardly know any Germans who speak perfect English.
>
> The fact that you hardly know them not surprising. The Germans I know are
> also pretty bright, therefore they would steer clear of the likes of you.
>

As a group, I suspect that Scandinavians are more likely to be "effective"
English speakers than are Germans, and in my experience the Dutch are more
likely to be at least semi-fluent in English than are other nationalities.
Obviously, the English and US citizens (other than Hispanics) are among the
most likely to be mono-lingual. Were it not for tourism and commerce, I
have my doubts whether more than a half-dozen French residents would speak
English....

I'm fairly fluent in a brand of Spanish spoken in San Luis Potosi, Mexico,
before 1914, the place and time of origin of most of the early
Spanish-speaking residents of my home town, but likely to draw smiles in
Madrid. After a few days of stumbling, I can once more "get by" in a sort
of Italian quite understandable to Italians in Central and Southern Italy.
My French consists of long lost and hard to reclaim bits of a maritime and
littoral lingua franca, good at ship-chandlers, agents, port services, bars,
restaurants, hotels, transportation services and, I suppose, in the
occasional maison du tolerance. Vietnamese? Once terse, inadequate, and
minimally functional. Now, none of the above and any remaining much clouded
by the passage of time.

That's not much to be proud of, but a clear leg up on most of my US
contemporaries. My father who spoke fair Chinese would be proud of my
youngest daughter who speaks a barbarous brand of "Post Hole" TexMex, but
decent commercial Chinese (Mandarin?) for the marketplace in which she
works. She claims that her commercial contacts are more and more likely to
speak English.

TMO

[Thomas Borchert]

TMOliver,

> As a group, I suspect that Scandinavians are more likely to be "effective"
> English speakers than are Germans, and in my experience the Dutch are more
> likely to be at least semi-fluent in English than are other nationalities.
>

One of the more interesting reasons for this: In Germany, TV shows/movies are
dubbed to German language. In Scandinavia and the Netherlands, they are
subtitled. This has been shown to influence English literacy greatly.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[William Black[_1_]]

"Miguel Cruz" > wrote in message
news:spam-95493A.19290709072007@localhost...

> I think the main linguistic consequence of India's economic growth will
> be an improvement in the standard of English throughout India.

In what way exactly?

Most Indian undergraduates are already required to have a good command of
English before they can get into university.

The Indians I meet speak good, if rather 'over precise' English.

The major problem with Indians is that they expect people to speak English
with the same precision they use. And people don't.

English in India is usually taught in a way that requires the speaker to
have a slight and distinct pause after each word. many Indians who have
been taught that way have problems understanding people who speak English as
their native tongue

Indians who learn English as their first language (About 10% of the
population) do not speak like this and do not have this problem.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[William Black[_1_]]

"David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" > wrote in message
...
> William Black > wrote:
>
>> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>> >
>> >> Fair enough- but India still has over 3 times as many people speaking
>> >> Hindi as a native language than the number speaking English as a
>> >> secondary one.
>> >
>> > Not so. There are far more than one billion speakers of English in the
>> > world.
>>
>> And about two thirds of them are in India...
>
> Where are you getting that figure?

It was in the Times of India some time ago.

But as I said, the level of English spoken is rather mixed.

However every child who has been to some sort of school in India has learned
some English.

It's the major official language, and a lot more popular than Hindi in
school for older kids.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[William Black[_1_]]

"David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" > wrote in message
...
> William Black > wrote:
>
>> "David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> > Fair enough- but India still has over 3 times as many people speaking
>> > Hindi as a native language than the number speaking English as a
>> > secondary one.
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>> About 300 million Indians speak some Hindi.
>>
>> About 700 million speak some English
>
> I was talking about India.
>
>> Mind you, in a lot of cases for both languages it's the taxi driver's
>> 'where to?'
>
> Well, I can answer that in Hindi! :)

I'm still laughing about a taxi ride I had in Bombay this year.

We were thundering along and my wife said 'Which way to Goregor?'

The taxi driver said 'That way, that way' (In English)

My wife shouted and pointed at a roadsign 'No, that way, can't you read
the sign' (Which was in Hindi).

Taxi driver (In Marathi) 'If I could read I wouldn't be driving this
cab...'

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

William Black > wrote:

> "David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" > wrote in message
> ...
> > William Black > wrote:
> >
> >> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
> >> >
> >> >> Fair enough- but India still has over 3 times as many people speaking
> >> >> Hindi as a native language than the number speaking English as a
> >> >> secondary one.
> >> >
> >> > Not so. There are far more than one billion speakers of English in the
> >> > world.
> >>
> >> And about two thirds of them are in India...
> >
> > Where are you getting that figure?
>
> It was in the Times of India some time ago.

It sounds like an extraordinary exaggeration to me.

> But as I said, the level of English spoken is rather mixed.
>
> However every child who has been to some sort of school in India has learned
> some English.
>
> It's the major official language, and a lot more popular than Hindi in
> school for older kids.

I spent a couple of months in Delhi when I was a teenager, and did a lot
of school visits there, as a sort of cultural 'ambassador.' Almost
anyone I had any dealings with in Delhi spoke fluent English- and
certainly the kids in schools did- though it was a potent mix of Hindi
and English on the whole. However, if you're saying that nearly 700
million people in India speak English, then I think that's severely
exaggerated. Unless "hello" and "goodbye" counts as speaking English.
Maybe the situation has changed since I was there, but just in terms of
encountering people in shops (outside tourist areas), servants, scooter
drivers and the like- hardly any spoke any kind of English.

Oh, and I think that Miguel's point was that as the economy grows, more
kids will go to school, and on to University, speaking English and so
on.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[William Black[_1_]]

"David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" > wrote in message
...
> William Black > wrote:
>
>> "David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > William Black > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> > David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Fair enough- but India still has over 3 times as many people
>> >> >> speaking
>> >> >> Hindi as a native language than the number speaking English as a
>> >> >> secondary one.
>> >> >
>> >> > Not so. There are far more than one billion speakers of English in
>> >> > the
>> >> > world.
>> >>
>> >> And about two thirds of them are in India...
>> >
>> > Where are you getting that figure?
>>
>> It was in the Times of India some time ago.
>
> It sounds like an extraordinary exaggeration to me.
>
>> But as I said, the level of English spoken is rather mixed.
>>
>> However every child who has been to some sort of school in India has
>> learned
>> some English.
>>
>> It's the major official language, and a lot more popular than Hindi in
>> school for older kids.
>
> I spent a couple of months in Delhi when I was a teenager, and did a lot
> of school visits there, as a sort of cultural 'ambassador.' Almost
> anyone I had any dealings with in Delhi spoke fluent English- and
> certainly the kids in schools did- though it was a potent mix of Hindi
> and English on the whole. However, if you're saying that nearly 700
> million people in India speak English, then I think that's severely
> exaggerated. Unless "hello" and "goodbye" counts as speaking English.
> Maybe the situation has changed since I was there, but just in terms of
> encountering people in shops (outside tourist areas), servants, scooter
> drivers and the like- hardly any spoke any kind of English.

I've spent a lot of time there in the past couple of years.

Just about everyone I met under about thirty in Bombay spoke some English,
including kids working in cheap restaurants, who are, as you're probably
aware, just in from the villages and making their way for the first time.

In Goa everyone I met, without exception, spoke some English.

'Up country' in the villages of Maharashtra just about everyone I spoke to,
except older women, spoke some English.

All the railway servants spoke some English, all our drivers, private hire
and taxi and auto-rickshaw, spoke some and someone in every shop I went
into spoke some English.

Which is a nuisance because everyone wants to practice their English and so
I didn't get much chance at all to practice my Hindi or Marathi.

Good English is seen as a way to a decent job and so prosperity.

The only person who I met who spoke no English at all and had no-one in his
shop who could and was some sort of businessman was my wife's dressmaker.

I don't go to touristy areas, I live in an area of Bombay city that is well
off any tourist track, to the extent that another European is noticeable and
is commented on. When I travel I don't use the terribly touristy means of
getting about and when I go 'up country' it's to places where tourists
certainly don't go, I was the first European seen in one village since the
British went home...

I expected good English to be spoken in Fort and Crawford Market, they're
big international shopping areas full of ex-pats and foreigners, I didn't
expect it to be spoken in rural India by people who work on the land...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[S Green]

"David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)" > wrote in message
...
> Mxsmanic > wrote:
>
>> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>>
> Extremely popular is meaningless. In the US, for example, which is the
> most populous English speaking country in the world, high school
> students are now learning Spanish at a rate almost 4 times that of
> French. In the UK too, learning French as a second language is seen as
> less important than it used to be.

Actually the most populous English speaking country is India.

[dgs[_2_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...

> El Maximo writes:
>
>> Languages, plural?
>
> Yes. I speak more than one and can teach all the languages I speak.

Which languages - besides English and French - are these?
--
dgs

[Morgans[_2_]]

"William Black" > wrote
>
> English in India is usually taught in a way that requires the speaker to have
> a slight and distinct pause after each word. many Indians who have been
> taught that way have problems understanding people who speak English as their
> native tongue
>
> Indians who learn English as their first language (About 10% of the
> population) do not speak like this and do not have this problem.
>

EVERY time I get a customer support call routed to India, I end up unsatisfied,
because of not being able to understand the English that is being spoken. Part
of the problem is the fact that I don't hear well, I think.

I don't know what the problem is, as most of the English is usually fair, but
the accent is so heavy that it makes it difficult. Also, it is like they don't
understand what the problem is that you are trying to explain to them. I think
they only understand enough to deal with the ordinary problems, and don't know
how to deal with an unusual situation.

Now, if I have a problem and get sent off to Tec support in India, I look for a
different solution. I know I will not get the problem solved, there.
--
Jim in NC

[DaveM]

On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 19:55:24 -0400, "Morgans" >
wrote:

>Now, if I have a problem and get sent off to Tec support in India, I look for a
>different solution. I know I will not get the problem solved, there.

It took just two calls to support lines for me to realise I was on my own -
and that was over ten years ago.

DaveM

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> El Maximo writes:
>
>> Languages, plural?
>
> Yes. I speak more than one and can teach all the languages I speak.
>

No, you can't, bankruptcy boi


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> NotABushSupporter writes:
>
>> Apparently, you speak much better than you write.
>
> It depends on many factors.
>

Pbviously, they're both crap


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> JohnT writes:
>
>> Perfect English is extraordinarily rare among people whose native
>> language it is.
>
> It is exceptional, but not extraordinarily rare.
>
>> I haven't fully mastered my own language and, certainly, you haven't
>> either.
>
> Actually, I do very well.
>

No,m you don't bankruptcy,boi

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
>> Next to English, Arabic,
>> Mandarin, Spanish and Hindi are far more important than French.
>
> It's the other way around. If you can't find someone who speaks
> English, the next language you try is French.
>



Nope.


Wrong again, bankruptcy boi


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
>> The next language _you_ try maybe. It's rarely of any use to me when
>> I travel (outside French speaking countries)- even in Europe. Despite
>> being an American, you have adopted a very French perspective, but
>> it's ******** if you travel to most countries outside France.
>
> There's nothing specifically French about the perspective, although
> I'm sure it pleases the French. I've still had cases in which I've
> been asked to speak to executives from non-French-speaking countries
> in French rather than English because they knew French far better
> (having studied it in school).


~That's just what they told you bankruptcy boi.
Actuallym, none of those audiences spoke french. It was the best way
they could tink of of not having to listen to you.


Bertei

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
>> It's a skewed perspective with no basis in the reality of the world
>> today.
>
> You're entitled to your opinion.
>
>> There are cases where non-German native executives would rather you
>> speak to them in German than English too.
>
> For these executives, French was not their native language.
>

Whoosh
Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Miguel Cruz writes:
>
>> Only if you're in France, or have little interest in establishing
>> communication.
>
> No, I was talking about interactions worldwide. French is the most
> popular second language after English, so most people with an
> education have studied one or the other (or both).

nope.

Wrong agin fjukktard


Bertie

>

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
>> What is the evidence for this?
>
> The statistics I've seen in the past. My own experience mirrors the
> statistics.
>



Annngh.

wrong again

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

"El Maximo" > wrote in
:

> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Read this again, carefully.
>>
>
> You have never given me cause to follow your instructions.
>
> You have always given me cause be highly skeptical of any of your
> 'advice'.
>


Bwawhahwhahwhahhwhahwhhahwhahwhahwhhahw!


I'm never skeptical of your's. I always know it's ****

Bertie
>
>

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
>> Mxsmanic > wrote:
>>
>> > David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>> >
>> > > Fair enough- but India still has over 3 times as many people
>> > > speaking Hindi as a native language than the number speaking
>> > > English as a secondary one.
>> >
>> > Not so. There are far more than one billion speakers of English in
>> > the world.
>>
>> I didn't claim otherwise. Re-read the above.
>
> I did. "Speaking English as a secondary one" means all speakers of
> English, not just native speakers, and there are far more than one
> billion such people in the world. This greatly outnumbers the number
> of native speakers of Hindi. Thus, claiming the opposite--to say
> nothing of claiming that there are three times as many native Hindi
> speakers as English speakers--is clearly incorrect.
>


Wrong again, bunkruptcy boi


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> El Maximo writes:
>
>> That probably works in France.....
>
> Oddly enough, it works throughout a large part of the world.
>

Wow, is there anything you know anythng about?


Bertie

[Jim Logajan]

Craig Welch > wrote:
> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) wrote:
>
>> Extremely popular is meaningless. In the US, for example, which is
>> the most populous English speaking country in the world, high school
>> students are now learning Spanish at a rate almost 4 times that of
>> French.
>
> The US is not the most populous English speaking country in the world.

I think at this point a reasonable rebuttal would go on to say something
like "The country with that honor is X, and my source for that
information is Y."

So here's what I consider a reasonable rebuttal to your rebuttal:

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-most-english-language-speaker-map.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language

You'll note that both web sites list the US as the country with the most
native speakers of English. At this point the typical Usenet rebuttal to
my post would be to say something like "Yes, but I meant to include
people for whom English is a second language, and my source is the same
Wikipedia page you reference. You'll note that it lists India as the
country with the most speakers of English, with China the second largest."

(I thought I'd save time by doing both halves of the dialogue. :-))

[NotABushSupporter]

dgs wrote:

> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>>El Maximo writes:
>>
>>
>>>Languages, plural?
>>
>>Yes. I speak more than one and can teach all the languages I speak.
>
>
> Which languages - besides English and French - are these?

I'm guessing "gibberish".

[NotABushSupporter]

Craig Welch wrote:

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>
>> Not so. There are far more than one billion speakers of English in
>> the world.
>
>
> What are their names?
>

George. After George Foreman.

[NotABushSupporter]

Jim Logajan wrote:

> Craig Welch > wrote:
>
>>David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Extremely popular is meaningless. In the US, for example, which is
>>>the most populous English speaking country in the world, high school
>>>students are now learning Spanish at a rate almost 4 times that of
>>>French.
>>
>>The US is not the most populous English speaking country in the world.
>
>
> I think at this point a reasonable rebuttal would go on to say something
> like "The country with that honor is X, and my source for that
> information is Y."
>
> So here's what I consider a reasonable rebuttal to your rebuttal:
>
> http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-most-english-language-speaker-map.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language
>

Wikipedia is NOT an authoritative source.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Craig Welch" < wrote

> My experience of that it that it depends on the Parisian's perception of
> where the English speaker is from. Often I have been met with a lack of
> comprehension of my English until it dawned that I was a native of
> neither the UK or the US.

Yet these are the two primary nations that saved them from all speaking German.

Sad.
--
Jim in NC

[William Black[_1_]]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "William Black" > wrote
>>
>> English in India is usually taught in a way that requires the speaker to
>> have a slight and distinct pause after each word. many Indians who have
>> been taught that way have problems understanding people who speak English
>> as their native tongue
>>
>> Indians who learn English as their first language (About 10% of the
>> population) do not speak like this and do not have this problem.
>>
>
> EVERY time I get a customer support call routed to India, I end up
> unsatisfied, because of not being able to understand the English that is
> being spoken. Part of the problem is the fact that I don't hear well, I
> think.
>
> I don't know what the problem is, as most of the English is usually fair,
> but the accent is so heavy that it makes it difficult. Also, it is like
> they don't understand what the problem is that you are trying to explain
> to them. I think they only understand enough to deal with the ordinary
> problems, and don't know how to deal with an unusual situation.
>
> Now, if I have a problem and get sent off to Tec support in India, I look
> for a different solution. I know I will not get the problem solved,
> there.

Most Indians who speak English learn it as a foreign language as children.

They are taught is a very formal and distinct manner and are made to leave a
distinct pause between each word.

It takes some getting used to.

If you speak to them in the same way. Each word distinct and a pause
between each one, you'll find your problem just about disappears.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[Richard[_3_]]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...

> Also, it is like they don't understand what the problem is
> that you are trying to explain to them. I think they only
> understand enough to deal with the ordinary problems,
> and don't know how to deal with an unusual situation.

I suspect they're all reading scripts and following flowcharts in an attempt
to troubleshoot things they've never seen, much less used.

Here in Montreal I'm blessed in that tech support is offered in both English
and French - and it seems that they've yet to figure out that French side
could also be outsourced.

Richard

[Jim Logajan]

NotABushSupporter > wrote:
> Jim Logajan wrote:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language
>>
>
> Wikipedia is NOT an authoritative source.

Indeed. But in the Wikipedia article it provides references to its sources
(which some articles notably lack). I normally prefer using authoritative
and as unbiased sources as possible for topics I'm more serious about. I'm
just not that serious about this topic. :-)

[Miguel Cruz]

"William Black" > wrote:
> "Miguel Cruz" > wrote:
> > I think the main linguistic consequence of India's economic growth will
> > be an improvement in the standard of English throughout India.
>
> In what way exactly?
>
> Most Indian undergraduates are already required to have a good command of
> English before they can get into university.

More growth = more people on a white-collar track = more people heading
to university.

Also, those white-collar jobs tend to expose people to everyday English,
which improves their skill far more than sitting in a classroom.

> Indians who learn English as their first language (About 10% of the
> population) do not speak like this and do not have this problem.

I think you mean, "They are not having this problem."

miguel
--
Hit the road! Photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Detailed airport information: http://airport.u.nu

[Mxsmanic]

Morgans writes:

> Today, most Germans learn English in school from an early age, and speak very
> good "British" English.

Many people learn English from an early age in school. Unfortunately, this is
no guarantee of competence in English.

[Mxsmanic]

TMOliver writes:

> As a group, I suspect that Scandinavians are more likely to be "effective"
> English speakers than are Germans, and in my experience the Dutch are more
> likely to be at least semi-fluent in English than are other nationalities.

My experience is that the Dutch are the best at English overall. Of course,
they have no choice, since nobody is going to learn Dutch. However, the
notion that everyone from the Netherlands is fluent in English is quite false.
Unless they have reason to use English regularly, their English is often very
spotty, and hardly fluent. Still, when one compares their competence in
English to that of people in many Latin countries, they shine.

[Mxsmanic]

S Green writes:

> Actually the most populous English speaking country is India.

India is not an English-speaking country; it is simply a country in which many
people are reasonably fluent in English, which is not the same thing. The
population is primarily rural and most people do not speak fluent English, or
any English for that matter. However, English is the most popular second
language AFAIK and is widely spoken to some extent among those with an
education. It is a useful language for communication between different
segments of Indian society, since there are 15 different languages that are
widely used in the country (Hindi is about one third of the total). Native
English speakers are rare.

The greatest population of native English speakers is in the United States.
Canadians speak essentially the same English and add to this total.

[Mxsmanic]

Craig Welch writes:

> The US is not the most populous English speaking country in the world.

It has the greatest number of native English speakers.

[Mxsmanic]

NotABushSupporter writes:

> Wikipedia is NOT an authoritative source.

Take care never to cite Wikipedia again, then, or this statement might
backfire on you.

[Mxsmanic]

David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:

> I don't think reasonable people would consider you to have much
> experience.

Reasonable people do not base such assessments on emotion.

[Mxsmanic]

El Maximo writes:

> You despise leaving your apartment, why would anyone think you know anything
> about 'interactions worldwide"?

Stephen Hawking is confined to a wheelchair; why would anyone think he knows
anything about the rest of the universe?

[Mxsmanic]

TMOliver writes:

> Other than in South Louisiana (and then with mixed and amusing result), I
> certainly wouldn't try that progression in the US (and if you think so, it's
> even more obvious how "out of touch" you are.

This statement seems supremely ironic, given that I was talking about the
_entire world_ ... not just the U.S. The United States is only a very tiny
part of the world, and it is not at all representative.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

Mxsmanic > wrote:

> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
> > I don't think reasonable people would consider you to have much
> > experience.
>
> Reasonable people do not base such assessments on emotion.

Absolutely right.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[Mxsmanic]

William Black writes:

> And about two thirds of them are in India...

No, they are spread around the world. Most Indians are not usefully fluent in
English.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

Mxsmanic > wrote:

> El Maximo writes:
>
> > You despise leaving your apartment, why would anyone think you know anything
> > about 'interactions worldwide"?
>
> Stephen Hawking is confined to a wheelchair; why would anyone think he knows
> anything about the rest of the universe?

Maybe because he doesn't think that playing flight simulator is the same
thing as flying?

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[Mxsmanic]

William Black writes:

> It's the major official language, and a lot more popular than Hindi in
> school for older kids.

Hindi is the major language, with English being more of a lingua franca (since
there are many different languages in India). Educated people do learn
English, but they don't necessarily speak it on an everyday basis.

[Mxsmanic]

William Black writes:

> Just about everyone I met under about thirty in Bombay spoke some English,
> including kids working in cheap restaurants, who are, as you're probably
> aware, just in from the villages and making their way for the first time.

"Some English" doesn't really count. Give these acquaintances of yours a
TOEIC and you may be surprised.

[Mxsmanic]

William Black writes:

> If you speak to them in the same way. Each word distinct and a pause
> between each one, you'll find your problem just about disappears.

It's not his problem, it's their problem. They are the ones who are not
fluent.

[Mxsmanic]

Richard writes:

> Here in Montreal I'm blessed in that tech support is offered in both English
> and French - and it seems that they've yet to figure out that French side
> could also be outsourced.

The French themselves have figured this out, and your support call from France
may be routed to Africa. In some cases, it is even routed to Montreal.

[Mxsmanic]

Craig Welch writes:

> My experience of that it that it depends on the Parisian's perception of
> where the English speaker is from.

Much has changed in the forty years since the U.S. military was last present
in France in any significant number.

[Mxsmanic]

Morgans writes:

> Yet these are the two primary nations that saved them from all speaking German.

And they are the nation that prevented the United States from remaining a
group of British colonies.

[JohnT[_2_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> El Maximo writes:
>
>> You despise leaving your apartment, why would anyone think you know
>> anything
>> about 'interactions worldwide"?
>
> Stephen Hawking is confined to a wheelchair; why would anyone think he
> knows
> anything about the rest of the universe?


Because he is intelligent? Now show us your medals.
--

JohnT

[JohnT[_2_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Morgans writes:
>
>> Yet these are the two primary nations that saved them from all speaking
>> German.
>
> And they are the nation that prevented the United States from remaining a
> group of British colonies.


So!
--

JohnT

[Mxsmanic]

JohnT writes:

> Because he is intelligent?

Amongst other reasons. But also because experiential knowledge is not the
only type available.

[Miguel Cruz]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> William Black writes:
> > It's the major official language, and a lot more popular than Hindi in
> > school for older kids.
>
> Hindi is the major language, with English being more of a lingua franca (since
> there are many different languages in India). Educated people do learn
> English, but they don't necessarily speak it on an everyday basis.

Actually, an awful lot of them do.

It is common in wealthy and educated households to speak English at home
and for children to attend English-medium schools.

Have you been to India?

miguel
--
Hit the road! Photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Detailed airport information: http://airport.u.nu

[NotABushSupporter]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> El Maximo writes:
>
>
>>You despise leaving your apartment, why would anyone think you know anything
>>about 'interactions worldwide"?
>
>
> Stephen Hawking is confined to a wheelchair; why would anyone think he knows
> anything about the rest of the universe?

You're no Stephen Hawking

[Mxsmanic]

NotABushSupporter writes:

> You're no Stephen Hawking

True. I understand his personality is very different from mine.

[David Horne, _the_ chancellor]

Mxsmanic > wrote:

> NotABushSupporter writes:
>
> > You're no Stephen Hawking
>
> True. I understand his personality is very different from mine.

Correct. He has one.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Pres. Blair- May, 2007

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> NotABushSupporter writes:
>
>> You're no Stephen Hawking
>
> True. I understand his personality is very different from mine.

Like that's all you don't have in common with Mr. Hawkings.

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.piloting Gig 601XL Builder <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote:
> Mxsmanic wrote:
> > NotABushSupporter writes:
> >
> >> You're no Stephen Hawking
> >
> > True. I understand his personality is very different from mine.

> Like that's all you don't have in common with Mr. Hawkings.

Like Hawking doesn't hide from the real world behind some computer
simulation of life, has three kids, interacts with other humans, and
has a sense of humor.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[William Black[_1_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>S Green writes:
>
>> Actually the most populous English speaking country is India.
>
> India is not an English-speaking country; it is simply a country in which
> many
> people are reasonably fluent in English, which is not the same thing. The
> population is primarily rural and most people do not speak fluent English,
> or
> any English for that matter. However, English is the most popular second
> language AFAIK and is widely spoken to some extent among those with an
> education.

Nope.

It is undoubtedly the most popular language.

>Native
> English speakers are rare.


Most of the Christian population speak English as a first language.

That's 60 million...


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[William Black[_1_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> William Black writes:
>
>> Just about everyone I met under about thirty in Bombay spoke some
>> English,
>> including kids working in cheap restaurants, who are, as you're
>> probably
>> aware, just in from the villages and making their way for the first
>> time.
>
> "Some English" doesn't really count. Give these acquaintances of yours a
> TOEIC and you may be surprised.

What the hell is a TOEIC?


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[William Black[_1_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> William Black writes:
>
>> And about two thirds of them are in India...
>
> No, they are spread around the world. Most Indians are not usefully
> fluent in
> English.

You must tell us all about your personal experiences in India.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[William Black[_1_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> William Black writes:
>
>> It's the major official language, and a lot more popular than Hindi in
>> school for older kids.
>
> Hindi is the major language, with English being more of a lingua franca
> (since
> there are many different languages in India). Educated people do learn
> English, but they don't necessarily speak it on an everyday basis.

Oh yes they do.

My experience is that most business and engineering is conducted in English.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[William Black[_1_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> William Black writes:
>
>> If you speak to them in the same way. Each word distinct and a pause
>> between each one, you'll find your problem just about disappears.
>
> It's not his problem, it's their problem. They are the ones who are not
> fluent.

Well yes.

But he's the one with a problem...

They're busy earning about $400 a month and happy to get it.

If you want better service you have to pay for it, and people won't...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[d.g.s.]

On 7/12/2007 10:29 AM William Black jumped down, turned around, and wrote:

> What the hell is a TOEIC?

Test of English for International Communication (TOEIC) measures the
ability of non-native English-speaking examinees to use English in
everyday work activities.

Got Google?
--
dgs

[William Black[_1_]]

"d.g.s." > wrote in message
...
> On 7/12/2007 10:29 AM William Black jumped down, turned around, and wrote:
>
>> What the hell is a TOEIC?
>
> Test of English for International Communication (TOEIC) measures the
> ability of non-native English-speaking examinees to use English in
> everyday work activities.
>
> Got Google?

Yep.

No motivation to use for this sort of low level rubbish.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[d.g.s.]

On 7/13/2007 1:29 AM William Black jumped down, turned around, and wrote:

> "d.g.s." > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 7/12/2007 10:29 AM William Black jumped down, turned around, and wrote:
>>
>>> What the hell is a TOEIC?
>> Test of English for International Communication (TOEIC) measures the
>> ability of non-native English-speaking examinees to use English in
>> everyday work activities.
>>
>> Got Google?
>
> Yep.
>
> No motivation to use for this sort of low level rubbish.

Engaging Anthony ("Mxsmanic") in these long-winded OT diatribes
certainly meets the criteria for low level rubbish, yes.
--
dgs

[AES]

In article >,
"William Black" > wrote:

> >> What the hell is a TOEIC?
> >
> > Test of English for International Communication (TOEIC) measures the
> > ability of non-native English-speaking examinees to use English in
> > everyday work activities.
> >

I suspect this may be what used to be known as TOEFL [Test of English as
a Foreign Language], an acronym that would have been pretty well known
among academics and anyone involved with students coming to American
universities from overseas.

If so, I suspect the change in nomenclature was a matter of political
correctness.