ID Theft -- Courtesy of the FAA

[quietguy]

I've just received a "past due" invoice for the purchase of 250
gallons of Jet A from an FBO a thousand miles away on 20 May. The
invoice includes my name and address and the N-number of my airplane.
The trouble is: I'm not a jet pilot; haven't been to that city in
thirty years; the airplane with that N-number is still a-building in
my garage and it won't burn kerosene when it flies, anyway.

There's only one way my name, address and reserved N-number could have
been obtained by whoever used them: he got them from the FAA website
by doing a search of the reserved N-number database. To my horror, I
found that information in less than a minute after going to the site.
The database of active N-numbers is equally easy to search.

If this guy is smart he got the names/addresses/tail-numbers for a
dozen or more people, got a dozen or more bogus credit cards and is
using each one just once at self-service pumps to avoid creating a
paper-trail that can be followed. His use of jet fuel is one thing
that will save me from having to pay for his travels. If he'd bought
100LL I might very well have been stuck for the tab; the FBO might
have argued that I'd used the not-yet-airborne tail-number to bolster
a fraudulent claim of identity theft after actually fueling a flyable
aircraft.

Leave it to the braintrust at the FAA to provide such great service to
ID thieves. Better yet, DON"T leave it to them. Write to the FAA
right now and tell them specifically that you want your address
removed from *all* their public-access databases:

Department of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration
Airmen Certification Branch, AFS-760
P.O. Box 25082
Oklahoma City OK 73125-0082

And if something like this happens to you:

- Notify one of the three credit-reporting services (they'll notify
the other two and all three will place an initial fraud alert on your
dossier, requiring creditors to contact you before extending credit in
your name for the next 90 days)

- Notify your local police (procedures vary among jurisdictions, but
if you get the runaround contact your state police)

- File an identity theft report with the Federal Trade Commission
via their website (you'll need to do the steps above first)

- Use the FTC report and the police report to get a seven-year fraud
alert attached to your files at the three credit-reporting companies.

In addition to writing to the FAA I've done the first step above (as
well as contacting that FBO; ATC records of arrivals and departures of
jets and turboprops can be checked against the time of the transaction
to narrow the list of suspect aircraft -- then the FBI may be brought
in). Monday I'll do the other steps. What the hell, I've got nothing
better to do. I mean, it's not as if the FAA can be expected to do
anything as trivial as safeguarding anybody's personal data; we'll
have to cough up a special user-fee for that ...

[Dallas]

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 20:26:11 -0700, quietguy wrote:

> I've just received a "past due" invoice for the purchase of 250
> gallons of Jet A from an FBO a thousand miles away on 20 May.

I'm unclear as to how someone could pull this off.

Are you saying they used your info to apply for a credit card in your name?

If so, how could the card have been sent to any other address other than
the billing address? Did you get a bill from a credit card company?

It sounds like you're saying this was paper invoice from the FBO mailed to
your address. Why would an FBO sell on credit to someone that didn't have
an account with them?

I'm confused.
--
Dallas

[quietguy]

On Jul 1, 12:21 am, Dallas > wrote:
> I'm confused.

*You're* confused? Imagine *my* state of mind. This was indeed a
paper invoice from the FBO. Only underlings were on duty late on a
Saturday afternoon; higher-level people will contact me, probably on
Monday, and I'll add a follow-up under this same topic as soon as I
know more. But it seems that this was done via a self-serve pump with
no employee oversight. Watch this thread for further details.

As for sending a credit card to an address other than mine, the
scammer probably used "his" (my) personal address for the address of
record on a card (and bills) to be sent elsewhere (e.g., to a
fictitious company address at a P.O. box); there are credit-card
companies that will do that. Again, I'll post any and all details
here when I get them. The point of this initial post was to alert
people to their vulnerability to ID theft thanks to our wonderful
public servants at the FAA ...

[buttman]

On Jun 30, 9:39 pm, quietguy > wrote:
> On Jul 1, 12:21 am, Dallas > wrote:
>
> > I'm confused.
>
> *You're* confused? Imagine *my* state of mind. This was indeed a
> paper invoice from the FBO. Only underlings were on duty late on a
> Saturday afternoon; higher-level people will contact me, probably on
> Monday, and I'll add a follow-up under this same topic as soon as I
> know more. But it seems that this was done via a self-serve pump with
> no employee oversight. Watch this thread for further details.
>
> As for sending a credit card to an address other than mine, the
> scammer probably used "his" (my) personal address for the address of
> record on a card (and bills) to be sent elsewhere (e.g., to a
> fictitious company address at a P.O. box); there are credit-card
> companies that will do that. Again, I'll post any and all details
> here when I get them. The point of this initial post was to alert
> people to their vulnerability to ID theft thanks to our wonderful
> public servants at the FAA ...

I understand you being ****ed off, but you can't pin this on the FAA.
If someone really wanted your address/phone number/tail number, they
could easily get it from a non-FAA source.

I know for a fact that when you apply for a credit card, you have to
supply them with your social security number. If the name on the card
doesn't match the SS given, they'll reject it. This person HAD to get
your SS in some way, and theres no way they could have gotten your SS
from a FAA source.

I suggest you direct your anger in a more constructive direction.

[James Robinson]

quietguy > wrote:

> I've just received a "past due" invoice for the purchase of 250
> gallons of Jet A from an FBO a thousand miles away on 20 May. The
> invoice includes my name and address and the N-number of my airplane.

You sure the FBO didn't simply mix up the N number in their records, and
are chasing the wrong person as a result?

[Lou]

Maybe it was the FBO itself trying to earn another buck.
Lou

[kontiki]

buttman wrote:

>
> I understand you being ****ed off, but you can't pin this on the FAA.
> If someone really wanted your address/phone number/tail number, they
> could easily get it from a non-FAA source.

What ever happened to blaming the freaking theif who perpetrated the
crime?

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, buttman > said:
>I know for a fact that when you apply for a credit card, you have to
>supply them with your social security number. If the name on the card
>doesn't match the SS given, they'll reject it. This person HAD to get
>your SS in some way, and theres no way they could have gotten your SS
>from a FAA source.

And if your pilot license number is still your SS number like it is for
most pilots?


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"Guns don't shoot people. Vice Presidents shoot people."

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2007-06-30 20:26:11 -0700, quietguy > said:

> His use of jet fuel is one thing
> that will save me from having to pay for his travels. If he'd bought
> 100LL I might very well have been stuck for the tab; the FBO might
> have argued that I'd used the not-yet-airborne tail-number to bolster
> a fraudulent claim of identity theft after actually fueling a flyable
> aircraft.

Pure nonsense. Federal laws limit your liability with stolen cards and
you have no liability at all for a fraudulent card. Peter cannot
collude with Paul to sell Paul 100 gallons of avgas (or anything else)
and make you pay for it. This is a fundamental point of common law -- a
third party cannot be bound by a contract between two other parties.

If the FBO pursued its claim against you, you would be able to sue them
for defamation, claim damages for fraud, and possibly press criminal
charges for conspiracy to defraud you.


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[quietguy]

On Jul 1, 3:14 am, buttman > wrote:
> If someone really wanted your address/phone number/tail number, they
> could easily get it from a non-FAA source.
>
> I know for a fact that when you apply for a credit card, you have to
> supply them with your social security number. If the name on the card
> doesn't match the SS given, they'll reject it. This person HAD to get
> your SS in some way, and theres no way they could have gotten your SS
> from a FAA source.
>
>I suggest you direct your anger in a more constructive direction.

One of the first things I found out when I started looking into what
to do was that not all credit-card sources require the SSAN. And I
*am* ****ed off at the thief and will do everything I can to help nab
him. As I've already stated, my OP was intended as a "heads-up" about
the danger of allowing the Feds to post one's personal data on the
Internet. Isn't that constructive?

[quietguy]

On Jul 1, 10:17 am, C J Campbell >
wrote:
> Pure nonsense. Federal laws limit your liability with stolen cards and
> you have no liability at all for a fraudulent card.

Correct -- as I've since found out. I'm learning more by the minute
about ID theft and its repercussions.

[quietguy]

On Jul 1, 3:53 am, James Robinson > wrote:
> You sure the FBO didn't simply mix up the N number in their records, and
> are chasing the wrong person as a result?

I fervently hope some such thing is the case; that would be easier to
clear up than outright ID theft. As I said, the FBO's higher-ups
haven't been heard from yet -- maybe Monday.

[Newps]

Dallas wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 20:26:11 -0700, quietguy wrote:
>
>
>>I've just received a "past due" invoice for the purchase of 250
>>gallons of Jet A from an FBO a thousand miles away on 20 May.
>
>
> I'm unclear as to how someone could pull this off.
>
> Are you saying they used your info to apply for a credit card in your name?
>
> If so, how could the card have been sent to any other address other than
> the billing address? Did you get a bill from a credit card company?
>
> It sounds like you're saying this was paper invoice from the FBO mailed to
> your address. Why would an FBO sell on credit to someone that didn't have
> an account with them?
>
> I'm confused.


It's clearly not a credit card because the FBO wouldn't send an invoice
in that situation. Either you paid at the self serve pump with your
crad or you didn't get gas.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"quietguy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I've just received a "past due" invoice for the purchase of 250
> gallons of Jet A from an FBO a thousand miles away on 20 May. The
> invoice includes my name and address and the N-number of my airplane.
> The trouble is: I'm not a jet pilot; haven't been to that city in
> thirty years; the airplane with that N-number is still a-building in
> my garage and it won't burn kerosene when it flies, anyway.
>
> There's only one way my name, address and reserved N-number could have
> been obtained by whoever used them: he got them from the FAA website
> by doing a search of the reserved N-number database. To my horror, I
> found that information in less than a minute after going to the site.
> The database of active N-numbers is equally easy to search.
>
> If this guy is smart he got the names/addresses/tail-numbers for a
> dozen or more people, got a dozen or more bogus credit cards and is
> using each one just once at self-service pumps to avoid creating a
> paper-trail that can be followed. His use of jet fuel is one thing
> that will save me from having to pay for his travels. If he'd bought
> 100LL I might very well have been stuck for the tab; the FBO might
> have argued that I'd used the not-yet-airborne tail-number to bolster
> a fraudulent claim of identity theft after actually fueling a flyable
> aircraft.
>
> Leave it to the braintrust at the FAA to provide such great service to
> ID thieves. Better yet, DON"T leave it to them. Write to the FAA
> right now and tell them specifically that you want your address
> removed from *all* their public-access databases:
>

Why would the FBO send you a paper INVOICE for a credit card sale?

Something here is fishy. There are several holes in your "story".

[quietguy]

On Jul 1, 12:24 pm, "Matt Barrow" >
wrote:
> Why would the FBO send you a paper INVOICE for a credit card sale?
>
> Something here is fishy. There are several holes in your "story".

I've got better things to do right now than to respond at length to
somebody who's apparently got nothing better to do than to call
another man a liar from a safe distance, but I won't let that crack
pass. The low-ranking person minding the store on a Saturday
afternoon said it was a credit-card transaction; maybe she was wrong.
And many companies try sending invoices as a first step in "past due"
cases, before reporting a customer to the card issuer. I've promised
to tell more when I know more, and I will.

[Dennis Johnson]

I'm also confused by this. If the thief paid by credit card at a self-serve
pump, the FBO will get paid by the credit card company, no matter what.

I could understand the credit card company coming after you to pay, but that
doesn't sound like the case here. I'm with the other poster who guessed
that it's a billing error by the FBO and will be resolved on Monday.

Good Luck,
Dennis

[quietguy]

On Jul 1, 12:37 pm, "Dennis Johnson" > wrote:
> I'm also confused by this. If the thief paid by credit card at a self-serve
> pump, the FBO will get paid by the credit card company, no matter what.
>
> I could understand the credit card company coming after you to pay, but that
> doesn't sound like the case here. I'm with the other poster who guessed
> that it's a billing error by the FBO and will be resolved on Monday.
>
> Good Luck,
> Dennis

Thanks for the kind wishes. This thing is really chapping my ass.
I'm a retired Air Force officer -- for twenty years my reputation
meant more to me than my life, and now I'm finding out that it still
may. I didn't sleep much last night.

There may not be a credit card company: crime rings manufacture pretty
good plastic blanks, complete with holograms, and they'll emboss and
encode them to your specs at, I'm told, a surprisingly low price --
especially if you're a high-volume customer. A gas-pump is a perfect
place to use such a fake.

I hope to God that this is just some innocent data-entry error. More
later.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"quietguy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
<...>. To my horror, I
> found that information in less than a minute after going to the site.

You just now figgured that out???

Ever type your name into Google? Try your phone number. Or your name and
state...

> The database of active N-numbers is equally easy to search.
>
> If this guy is smart he got the names/addresses/tail-numbers for a
> dozen or more people, got a dozen or more bogus credit cards and is

Except for the "N" number - all that information is in your local phone book
also...
Why bother to match a name to an "N" number if you are after bogus credit
cards?

You've lost me.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"quietguy" > wrote

> There may not be a credit card company: crime rings manufacture pretty
> good plastic blanks, complete with holograms, and they'll emboss and
> encode them to your specs at, I'm told, a surprisingly low price --
> especially if you're a high-volume customer. A gas-pump is a perfect
> place to use such a fake.

My sister just had a Mastercard refused, and when she called to check about
it, they told her that they had frozen the account, because someone had just
tried to scan it to withdraw money twice, in Saudi Arabia.

She has no idea where they got her information, to counterfit a card. It
does happen, though.

> I hope to God that this is just some innocent data-entry error. More
> later.

Good luck, and I have confidence that it will turn out OK, but it will
undoubtedly will take some time to get straightened out.
--
Jim in NC

[Viperdoc[_3_]]

It may not have been the FAA- I had a call from a credit card company
regarding some fraudulent charges, and they called the same day! Some guy
bought some stuff in a Walmart in Chicago.

So, it can happen- without reading the whole thread, did you call your
credit card company and dispute the charges?

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
<...>
>
> And if your pilot license number is still your SS number like it is for
> most pilots?
>

You can get that changed for free - even if you don't care if your SSN is on
your old ticket, this is a good way to get one of the nifty new plastic
tickets with Orville and Wilber's picture on it to replace that faded, ratty
old paper one that has been in your wallet for who-know-how-many-years...

You can even update your hair color to grey or none as applicable :-)

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[quietguy]

On Jul 1, 1:00 pm, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way
d0t com> wrote:
<snip text>

You're lost, too? Well, at least I've got company. And no, I really
didn't know before this that the FAA database accessible by the public
included my full address; I simply never had a reason to look before
now. And my name is not in the phone book -- I pay extra to keep it
out. I also Google my name occasionally and it always comes up
empty. I thought I was being cagey enough, but now I learn from
privacyrights.org that 41 states and DC maintain at least one type of
public record with residents' Social Security numbers, as do at least
28 percent of county governments. Government, as usual, is way behind
the bad guys.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> And if your pilot license number is still your SS number like it is for
>> most pilots?
>>
>
>You can get that changed for free - even if you don't care if your SSN is on
>your old ticket, this is a good way to get one of the nifty new plastic

Yeah, that's how I avoided the $30 fee for an address change - I changed
my address *and* requested a new license number.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"He passed away during an important civic function held in his honor when the
platform upon which he was standing collapsed." "I thought he was hanged?"
"That's what I said, isn't it?"

[El Maximo]

"quietguy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I've just received a "past due" invoice for the purchase of 250
> gallons of Jet A from an FBO a thousand miles away on 20 May. The
> invoice includes my name and address and the N-number of my airplane.
> The trouble is: I'm not a jet pilot; haven't been to that city in
> thirty years; the airplane with that N-number is still a-building in
> my garage and it won't burn kerosene when it flies, anyway.

A few years ago, I fueled up at an airport and gave them my Discover Card
(1% cash back). They didn't have a machine there, so they took an imprint. A
few weeks later, I got a bill from them with a note saying they don't take
Discover. They had written the tail number on the slip, so they knew where
to mail the bill.

My guess is something similar happened here, but they got the tail number
wrong.

[quietguy]

On Jul 1, 1:11 pm, "Viperdoc" > wrote:

> without reading the whole thread, did you call your
> credit card company and dispute the charges?

I have online access to my credit-card statement and it appears to be
updated nearly in real-time. The charge (from a 20 May transaction)
hasn't appeared. And that, like everything else about this case,
leaves me perplexed: if the FBO submitted a charge to some credit-card
company and they were told the account number was bogus, why just send
me a nice, polite "Past Due -- Please Remit" invoice? And didn't they
see in the FAA database that the N-number wasn't even active yet?
Curiouser and curiouser ...

[Larry Dighera]

On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 17:28:31 +0000 (UTC),
(Paul Tomblin) wrote in >:

>$30 fee for an address change

Ah, ATC privatization. Ain't it wonderful?



http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/airmen_services/
Airmen Online Services
Welcome to the Airmen Certification on-line services site. To
utilize the online services, you must first create an account with
the Airmen Certification Branch.

Create an account
Log in to your account to:
change your address
order a replacement certificate
remove SSN as certificate number
request temporary authority to exercise certificate privileges
request verification of certificate privileges



http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/media/8060-55.pdf

[El Maximo]

"quietguy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Jul 1, 1:11 pm, "Viperdoc" > wrote:
>
>> without reading the whole thread, did you call your
>> credit card company and dispute the charges?
>
> I have online access to my credit-card statement and it appears to be
> updated nearly in real-time. The charge (from a 20 May transaction)
> hasn't appeared. And that, like everything else about this case,
> leaves me perplexed: if the FBO submitted a charge to some credit-card
> company and they were told the account number was bogus, why just send
> me a nice, polite "Past Due -- Please Remit" invoice?

What alternatives do you suggest?

> And didn't they
> see in the FAA database that the N-number wasn't even active yet?

I don't know what the record looks like for a not-yet-active N-number.

My money says the whole thing will be cleared up Monday morning when you
talk to the FBO.

> Curiouser and curiouser ...
>

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"quietguy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Jul 1, 12:24 pm, "Matt Barrow" >
> wrote:
>> Why would the FBO send you a paper INVOICE for a credit card sale?
>>
>> Something here is fishy. There are several holes in your "story".
>
> I've got better things to do right now than to respond at length to
> somebody who's apparently got nothing better to do than to call
> another man a liar from a safe distance, but I won't let that crack
> pass.

Dude, I think you just gave yourself away.

> The low-ranking person minding the store on a Saturday
> afternoon said it was a credit-card transaction; maybe she was wrong.

And maybe you jumped the gun longggg before you had analyzed your case.

> And many companies try sending invoices as a first step in "past due"
> cases, before reporting a customer to the card issuer. I've promised
> to tell more when I know more, and I will.

Not on credit card transactions.

As I said, you've got holes in your story big enough to drive a freight
train through.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Viperdoc" > wrote in message
t...
> It may not have been the FAA- I had a call from a credit card company
> regarding some fraudulent charges, and they called the same day! Some guy
> bought some stuff in a Walmart in Chicago.
>
> So, it can happen- without reading the whole thread, did you call your
> credit card company and dispute the charges?

He said it was a CC opened in his name by someone else.

This whole story stinks to high heaven.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message
...
> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
> <...>
>>
>> And if your pilot license number is still your SS number like it is for
>> most pilots?
>>
>
> You can get that changed for free - even if you don't care if your SSN is
> on your old ticket, this is a good way to get one of the nifty new plastic
> tickets with Orville and Wilber's picture on it to replace that faded,
> ratty old paper one that has been in your wallet for
> who-know-how-many-years...
>
> You can even update your hair color to grey or none as applicable :-)
>

Or your weight....

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"El Maximo" > wrote in message
...
> "quietguy" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> I've just received a "past due" invoice for the purchase of 250
>> gallons of Jet A from an FBO a thousand miles away on 20 May. The
>> invoice includes my name and address and the N-number of my airplane.
>> The trouble is: I'm not a jet pilot; haven't been to that city in
>> thirty years; the airplane with that N-number is still a-building in
>> my garage and it won't burn kerosene when it flies, anyway.
>
> A few years ago, I fueled up at an airport and gave them my Discover Card
> (1% cash back). They didn't have a machine there, so they took an imprint.
> A few weeks later, I got a bill from them with a note saying they don't
> take Discover. They had written the tail number on the slip, so they knew
> where to mail the bill.
>
> My guess is something similar happened here, but they got the tail number
> wrong.
Still makes no sense if it was a CC sale.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

> "quietguy" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> On Jul 1, 1:11 pm, "Viperdoc" > wrote:
>>
>>> without reading the whole thread, did you call your
>>> credit card company and dispute the charges?
>>
>> I have online access to my credit-card statement and it appears to be
>> updated nearly in real-time. The charge (from a 20 May transaction)
>> hasn't appeared. And that, like everything else about this case,
>> leaves me perplexed: if the FBO submitted a charge to some credit-card
>> company and they were told the account number was bogus, why just send
>> me a nice, polite "Past Due -- Please Remit" invoice?

Wait!! You said the guy opened CC's in your name, but that would not be YOUR
credit card.

Folks: I suspect this "quiet"guy is barfing our his butt.

[El Maximo]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "El Maximo" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "quietguy" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>> I've just received a "past due" invoice for the purchase of 250
>>> gallons of Jet A from an FBO a thousand miles away on 20 May. The
>>> invoice includes my name and address and the N-number of my airplane.
>>> The trouble is: I'm not a jet pilot; haven't been to that city in
>>> thirty years; the airplane with that N-number is still a-building in
>>> my garage and it won't burn kerosene when it flies, anyway.
>>
>> A few years ago, I fueled up at an airport and gave them my Discover Card
>> (1% cash back). They didn't have a machine there, so they took an
>> imprint. A few weeks later, I got a bill from them with a note saying
>> they don't take Discover. They had written the tail number on the slip,
>> so they knew where to mail the bill.
>>
>> My guess is something similar happened here, but they got the tail number
>> wrong.
> Still makes no sense if it was a CC sale.
>
He already said that all the facts aren't in. In my case, it was a credit
card transaction, but I got a bill from the FBO, because the CC didn't go
through.

It may have been a CC sale, but did the FBO say the CC was in his name? If
so, who said it? A clerk who could do nothing about it?

I still think the CC (in someone else's name) was declined, and the bill was
simply mailed to the owner of the plane - but they mixed up the N-number.

[Marty Shapiro]

(Paul Tomblin) wrote in
:

> In a previous article, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow
> way d0t com> said:
>>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>>> And if your pilot license number is still your SS number like it is
>>> for most pilots?
>>>
>>
>>You can get that changed for free - even if you don't care if your SSN
>>is on your old ticket, this is a good way to get one of the nifty new
>>plastic
>
> Yeah, that's how I avoided the $30 fee for an address change - I
> changed my address *and* requested a new license number.
>
>

$30 fee? Where did you get that from?

The FAA web site still shows $2 for the fee.

From https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/amsrvs/replacenotice.asp (you need to
sign on to get to this page):


Requesting Replacement Certificates Online

You may request replacement of any or all of your airmen certificates with
a credit card payment of $2 for each certificate requested.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"El Maximo" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "El Maximo" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "quietguy" > wrote in message
>>> ups.com...
>>>> I've just received a "past due" invoice for the purchase of 250
>>>> gallons of Jet A from an FBO a thousand miles away on 20 May. The
>>>> invoice includes my name and address and the N-number of my airplane.
>>>> The trouble is: I'm not a jet pilot; haven't been to that city in
>>>> thirty years; the airplane with that N-number is still a-building in
>>>> my garage and it won't burn kerosene when it flies, anyway.
>>>
>>> A few years ago, I fueled up at an airport and gave them my Discover
>>> Card (1% cash back). They didn't have a machine there, so they took an
>>> imprint. A few weeks later, I got a bill from them with a note saying
>>> they don't take Discover. They had written the tail number on the slip,
>>> so they knew where to mail the bill.
>>>
>>> My guess is something similar happened here, but they got the tail
>>> number wrong.
>> Still makes no sense if it was a CC sale.
>>
> He already said that all the facts aren't in. In my case, it was a credit
> card transaction, but I got a bill from the FBO, because the CC didn't go
> through.

If the CC didn't go through, you would not have gotten any gas (or whateve
else).

>
> It may have been a CC sale, but did the FBO say the CC was in his name? If
> so, who said it? A clerk who could do nothing about it?

IIRC the OP, it was a CC swipe sale...not a face-to-face sale. In that case
the FBO would not know who to send a bill to, and/or he would not have been
able to get gas from the pump.

> I still think the CC (in someone else's name) was declined, and the bill
> was simply mailed to the owner of the plane - but they mixed up the
> N-number.

Again, if the CC was declined, he would not have gotten gas.

AIS, this whole thing is fishy. (Please, no fish puns :~) )

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "quietguy" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> I've just received a "past due" invoice for the purchase of 250
>> gallons of Jet A from an FBO a thousand miles away on 20 May.

I'd like to know who the FBO is. This anecdotal stuff adds to the stink
here.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Dennis Johnson" > wrote in message
. ..
> I'm also confused by this. If the thief paid by credit card at a
> self-serve pump, the FBO will get paid by the credit card company, no
> matter what.
>
> I could understand the credit card company coming after you to pay, but
> that doesn't sound like the case here. I'm with the other poster who
> guessed that it's a billing error by the FBO and will be resolved on
> Monday.
>
Why would the FBO bill for something paid by CC (could happen, just not very
likely), as I believe that violates the rules that VISA, MC, AE, and the
rest, put down.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Viperdoc" > wrote in message
t...
> It may not have been the FAA- I had a call from a credit card company
> regarding some fraudulent charges, and they called the same day! Some guy
> bought some stuff in a Walmart in Chicago.

That was someone using YOUR card. The OP says someone got a CC using his
personal info. Recall that the topic is how the FAA made his peersonal info
available. Yet, virtually NO CC companies will give a CC without a SSN.
>
> So, it can happen- without reading the whole thread, did you call your
> credit card company and dispute the charges?

[Ron Natalie]

quietguy wrote:
> I've just received a "past due" invoice for the purchase of 250
> gallons of Jet A from an FBO a thousand miles away on 20 May. The
> invoice includes my name and address and the N-number of my airplane.
> The trouble is: I'm not a jet pilot; haven't been to that city in
> thirty years; the airplane with that N-number is still a-building in
> my garage and it won't burn kerosene when it flies, anyway.
>

The airplane database is public knowledge. Use a corporation if
you want anonymity.

The pilot database on the other hand is supposedly protected by
the privacy act. However, the FAA has been in substantial violation
of federal law by now letting people FULLY opt out of the thing and
by putting information (medical certification) on there that they
were never authorized to do.

I'm within a few months of starting a federal lawsuit on this one.

[Ron Natalie]

C J Campbell wrote:

> If the FBO pursued its claim against you, you would be able to sue them
> for defamation,

Defamation? Sending you a bill is not defamation, even if they
intentionally sent it to you knowing you weren't responsible for it.

> claim damages for fraud,

What fraud?

? and possibly press criminal
> charges for conspiracy to defraud you.

Conspiracy to do what?

You need to get your legal theory from someone other than judge judy.

[Ron Natalie]

Dennis Johnson wrote:
> I'm also confused by this. If the thief paid by credit card at a self-serve
> pump, the FBO will get paid by the credit card company, no matter what.

Oh, bull****. You've never been involved in a business that takes
credit cards? While the cardholder is protected, there ain't no
such protection by the merchant. If the card was fraudulant, the
charges will be reversed and you'll pay a service fee too!

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
<...>
>>
>> You can even update your hair color to grey or none as applicable :-)
>>
>
> Or your weight....

HEY! We ain't a gonna go there...

No need to get personal

:-)

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Paul kgyy]

I think you're unnecessarily hyperventilating over this. My guess is
that someone either provided or copied a wrong tail number at the
FBO. When they discovered the bill hadn't been paid, they did what
FBOs usually do in this situation - look up the FAA info and send a
bill.

All you have to do is discuss it with them. I had a similar situation
a number of years ago and just wrote them back that my Tripacer would
have considerable difficulty carrying 75 gallons of fuel, and that I
had never in my life visited their facility.

[Jim Logajan]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote:
> As I said, you've got holes in your story big enough to drive a freight
> train through.

Maybe you can clue us in on what you think "quietguy" gains by this story?

[tom laudato]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 17:28:31 +0000 (UTC),
> (Paul Tomblin) wrote in >:
>
> >$30 fee for an address change
>
> Ah, ATC privatization. Ain't it wonderful?
>
>
>
>
http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/airmen_service
s/
> Airmen Online Services
> Welcome to the Airmen Certification on-line services site. To
> utilize the online services, you must first create an account with
> the Airmen Certification Branch.
>
> Create an account
> Log in to your account to:
> change your address
> order a replacement certificate
> remove SSN as certificate number
> request temporary authority to exercise certificate privileges
> request verification of certificate privileges
>
>
>
>
http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/media/8060-55.
pdf

thanks so much for taking the time to post this info
saved some money and also updated everything
couldn ot find my info until i found that my license does not use the
first digit in my social security number
thanks again tom

[John Godwin]

Jim Logajan > wrote in
:

> Maybe you can clue us in on what you think "quietguy" gains by
> this story?

Probably the same thing that people who send out comupter viruses or
political bull sh*t gain (whatever turns them on).

--

[Dallas]

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 07:30:06 -0700, quietguy wrote:

> Correct -- as I've since found out. I'm learning more by the minute
> about ID theft and its repercussions.

We have several "rainy day" credit cards in a safety deposit box at the
bank that we have *never* used.

Imagine my surprise when I got home from vacation in February to find my
message machine contained 2 automated suspected fraud calls on two of those
cards.

Phone calls revealed two $300 internet charges to cell phone vendors on one
card and one $200 internet charge to another cell phone vendor on an other
card.

My best guess is that someone pulled a credit report on me and used the
printed card numbers off of it.

So... try as you might... you can't get away from these scum.

--
Dallas

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 10:38:11 -0700, quietguy >
wrote:

>On Jul 1, 1:11 pm, "Viperdoc" > wrote:
>
>> without reading the whole thread, did you call your
>> credit card company and dispute the charges?
>
>I have online access to my credit-card statement and it appears to be
>updated nearly in real-time. The charge (from a 20 May transaction)
>hasn't appeared. And that, like everything else about this case,
>leaves me perplexed: if the FBO submitted a charge to some credit-card
>company and they were told the account number was bogus, why just send
>me a nice, polite "Past Due -- Please Remit" invoice? And didn't they
>see in the FAA database that the N-number wasn't even active yet?
>Curiouser and curiouser ...

Be careful, this could be the snail mail version of the e-mail
phishing scams.

[Jim Stewart]

quietguy wrote:
> On Jul 1, 12:37 pm, "Dennis Johnson" > wrote:
>> I'm also confused by this. If the thief paid by credit card at a self-serve
>> pump, the FBO will get paid by the credit card company, no matter what.
>>
>> I could understand the credit card company coming after you to pay, but that
>> doesn't sound like the case here. I'm with the other poster who guessed
>> that it's a billing error by the FBO and will be resolved on Monday.
>>
>> Good Luck,
>> Dennis
>
> Thanks for the kind wishes. This thing is really chapping my ass.
> I'm a retired Air Force officer -- for twenty years my reputation
> meant more to me than my life, and now I'm finding out that it still
> may. I didn't sleep much last night.
>
> There may not be a credit card company: crime rings manufacture pretty
> good plastic blanks, complete with holograms, and they'll emboss and
> encode them to your specs at, I'm told, a surprisingly low price --
> especially if you're a high-volume customer. A gas-pump is a perfect
> place to use such a fake.
>
> I hope to God that this is just some innocent data-entry error. More
> later.

I believe the issue can be resolved with minimal
expense and trouble.

So far, you have not been a victim of ID theft.

You may have been a victim of credit card fraud.
If the FBO verifies that a card of yours was
used, just call the 800 number on the back of
the card, explain the situation and they will
cancel it and send another one immediately. Over
the past 35 years, I've had to do this twice.
No big deal, minimal hassle.

If the FBO can't verify your credit card was
used, write a letter explaining why it wasn't you,
and send it Fedex Letter to the FBO owner. Keep
a copy and then forget about it.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"John Godwin" > wrote in message
. 3.50...
> Jim Logajan > wrote in
> :
>
>> Maybe you can clue us in on what you think "quietguy" gains by
>> this story?
>
> Probably the same thing that people who send out comupter viruses or
> political bull sh*t gain (whatever turns them on).
>

Also, an "out", or an agenda,(like Jim's), or just plain immaturity. (See
how it all fits?)

Just because Jim is clueless (Hey, Jim...what's your boy James hansen's
reason for screeching about GW (and why did you misstate that Hansen had the
climate estimartes "dead on" (your words, AIR)? What's his "reason" for
wanting Nurnberg trials for skeptics?

Putz!

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
>C J Campbell wrote:
>
>> If the FBO pursued its claim against you, you would be able to sue them
>> for defamation,
>
> Defamation? Sending you a bill is not defamation, even if they
> intentionally sent it to you knowing you weren't responsible for it.

Did you read the part about "If the FBO pursued its claim against you..."?

[Ron Natalie]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> ...
>> C J Campbell wrote:
>>
>>> If the FBO pursued its claim against you, you would be able to sue them
>>> for defamation,
>> Defamation? Sending you a bill is not defamation, even if they
>> intentionally sent it to you knowing you weren't responsible for it.
>
> Did you read the part about "If the FBO pursued its claim against you..."?
>
>
>
>
Yes I did, and the answer would be that.
It's not defamation. Do you have a clue what defamation is?
Sending out bills and filing lawsuits or whatever to try to
collect is not.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> C J Campbell wrote:
>>>
>>>> If the FBO pursued its claim against you, you would be able to sue them
>>>> for defamation,
>>> Defamation? Sending you a bill is not defamation, even if they
>>> intentionally sent it to you knowing you weren't responsible for it.
>>
>> Did you read the part about "If the FBO pursued its claim against
>> you..."?
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Yes I did, and the answer would be that.
> It's not defamation. Do you have a clue what defamation is?

Yeah...it's what happens when someone knowingly and willfully files a false
calim against you, encumbering your credit rating.

> Sending out bills and filing lawsuits or whatever to try to
> collect is not.

See above.

[quietguy]

The manager of the FBO called me today. He's now as perplexed as I am
and this matter is not resolved yet, but here's what we know:

The 'concierge' (I'm thinking 'secretary/receptionist') who tried to
help me on Saturday afternoon misinformed me: this was a credit
transaction, but not with a credit card. That was a great relief to
me; I just wish I hadn't had to wait nearly three days for it.

Around 0300 on 20 May, a Sunday, a Pilatus landed at Austin-Bergstrom
International Airport and parked at Atlantic Aviation for a gas-n-go;
the solo pilot was in a hurry. The two employees who serviced the
aircraft both say they got the tail-number right. Payment was not
made at the time and no information was recorded other than number of
gallons, N-number and the pilot's scrawl on a charge-slip. I'm not
familiar with business practices in the kerosene-burning part of GA so
I don't know why they let the man escape that way, but I didn't press
the manager on that point (although I will ask about that, politely,
if he calls again). This FBO is part of a nationwide chain with more
than forty locations; apparently they let customers run a tab
somehow. And for me it's beside the point; all I cared about was
whether the man used a credit card or ID with my name on it and I was
assured that he didn't. The part about my reserved N-number bothers
me but it may simply be incorrect; the manager says they haven't
finished searching the FAA database for all the permutations of digits
and letters. They've also asked ATC to check their arrival and
departure records and that should clear up the matter -- unless their
records also show my N-number ...

Anyway, the FBO's records are keyed to N-number; when their clerk
didn't get a match to an existing local file (a common thing
considering the number of transient customers patronizing the chain) a
new file was created and there the charge-slip sat for thirty days.
Then it was sent to an off-site billing facility where someone queried
the FAA database, got my name and address, and off went the 'past due'
invoice.

The manager and I agree that even though the two employees are sure
about the number that doesn't guarantee that they weren't both wrong;
it may be a case of only one noting the number (incorrectly) and the
other supporting him blindly. They're continuing to search for a
Pilatus with a similar number. If the ATC records show that my future
number was actually being used then the Feds have a problem. But at
least it appears that I probably don't have an identity-theft problem
-- this time. I've written to the FAA telling them to remove my
address from all public databases, but I should never have had to do
that. Government at all levels ought to be required to justify, and
ask each individual's permission for, public posting of personal data
-- withholding such data ought to be the default action. As things
are now, even Social Security numbers are viewable in one or more
public records on most Americans.

I'll pass on any further information I receive.

[James Robinson]

quietguy > wrote:

> Anyway, the FBO's records are keyed to N-number; when their clerk
> didn't get a match to an existing local file (a common thing
> considering the number of transient customers patronizing the chain) a
> new file was created and there the charge-slip sat for thirty days.
> Then it was sent to an off-site billing facility where someone queried
> the FAA database, got my name and address, and off went the 'past due'
> invoice.

Hey, I guessed right in my earlier post. They mixed up the N-number.

> They're continuing to search for a Pilatus with a similar number.

It shouldn't be that hard, since you can query the FAA database by
aircraft model/manufacturer, and state of registration. They should also
be able to get information from the FAA or Flight Tracker on movements at
the airport on a particular day.

> I've written to the FAA telling them to remove my
> address from all public databases, but I should never have had to do
> that. Government at all levels ought to be required to justify, and
> ask each individual's permission for, public posting of personal data
> -- withholding such data ought to be the default action.

Good luck with that idea. They have all sorts of databases available on-
line. Hard to escape them.

[Al G[_2_]]

"James Robinson" > wrote in message
. ..
> quietguy > wrote:
>
>> Anyway, the FBO's records are keyed to N-number; when their clerk
>> didn't get a match to an existing local file (a common thing
>> considering the number of transient customers patronizing the chain) a
>> new file was created and there the charge-slip sat for thirty days.
>> Then it was sent to an off-site billing facility where someone queried
>> the FAA database, got my name and address, and off went the 'past due'
>> invoice.
>
> Hey, I guessed right in my earlier post. They mixed up the N-number.
>
>> They're continuing to search for a Pilatus with a similar number.
>
> It shouldn't be that hard, since you can query the FAA database by
> aircraft model/manufacturer, and state of registration. They should also
> be able to get information from the FAA or Flight Tracker on movements at
> the airport on a particular day.
>
>> I've written to the FAA telling them to remove my
>> address from all public databases, but I should never have had to do
>> that. Government at all levels ought to be required to justify, and
>> ask each individual's permission for, public posting of personal data
>> -- withholding such data ought to be the default action.
>
> Good luck with that idea. They have all sorts of databases available on-
> line. Hard to escape them.

I've got a program that combines the aircraft Databases. I show 400
Pilatus's nationwide,
40 in Texas, 1 in Austin. I forwarded these lists to the OP. What number are
we looking for?

Al G

[Ron Natalie]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> Yeah...it's what happens when someone knowingly and willfully files a false
> calim against you, encumbering your credit rating.

Who said anything about encumbering the credit rating? We're talking
about billing. Even reporting the debt to a credit agency isn't
actionable defamation unless you go through the due process provided
you and you can actually prove that you were somehow damaged in the
process.

Your better bet would be to pursue them for violations of the FDCPA.

[Ron Natalie]

Even in the avgas burners, much of it is on the honor system.
I've had gas pumped where they just take my N-number. They
assume you're going to come in and settle up before you leave.

[Ron Natalie]

m.
>
> I've got a program that combines the aircraft Databases. I show 400
> Pilatus's nationwide,
> 40 in Texas, 1 in Austin. I forwarded these lists to the OP. What number are
> we looking for?

I was going to ask that. Given the number of network scavengers around
this group, I suspect we could track the culprit down in short order
given your N number.

[quietguy]

On Jul 4, 10:27 am, Ron Natalie > wrote:
> Given the number of network scavengers around
> this group, I suspect we could track the culprit down in short order
> given your N number.

Yes, but posting my N-number more widely is one thing I'm trying to
avoid. I gave it privately to Al G after he privately sent me a
listing of all Pilatuses in the country. I've examined that list and
there's no good candidate for an honestly misremembered and transposed
number; the closest has one digit that's an 8 versus my 9 -- I can't
see anyone making that mistake, even with the briefest of glances.
I'll pass that information to the FBO. This keeps alive the very
troubling possibility that there's an airplane flying around with my
reserved N-number on it. If so, I hope the thief is not smart enough
to steal his fuel with a different number each time; his keeping mine
on display would be our best hope of catching him. The ATC arrival/
departure records for 20 May will tell the tale.

[El Maximo]

"quietguy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Jul 4, 10:27 am, Ron Natalie > wrote:
>> Given the number of network scavengers around
>> this group, I suspect we could track the culprit down in short order
>> given your N number.
>
> Yes, but posting my N-number more widely is one thing I'm trying to
> avoid. I gave it privately to Al G after he privately sent me a
> listing of all Pilatuses in the country. I've examined that list and
> there's no good candidate for an honestly misremembered and transposed
> number; the closest has one digit that's an 8 versus my 9 -- I can't
> see anyone making that mistake, even with the briefest of glances.

Maybe not with a glance, but with a quick scribble. He wrote an 8 that
looked like a 9.

My money's on that one.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>> Yeah...it's what happens when someone knowingly and willfully files a
>> false calim against you, encumbering your credit rating.
>
> Who said anything about encumbering the credit rating?

CJ did (as a part of "pursuit.....)

> We're talking about billing. Even reporting the debt to a credit agency
> isn't actionable defamation unless you go through the due process provided
> you and you can actually prove that you were somehow damaged in the
> process.

That's why CJ said "...if they pursue". He was talking about an end result;
can't you get that through your (thick, temporarily hysterical) head.


>
> Your better bet would be to pursue them for violations of the FDCPA.

Why?, you seem to be doing a good job shrilling about that one.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Even in the avgas burners, much of it is on the honor system.
> I've had gas pumped where they just take my N-number. They
> assume you're going to come in and settle up before you leave.

At a card swipe gas pump?

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"El Maximo" > wrote in message
...
> "quietguy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> On Jul 4, 10:27 am, Ron Natalie > wrote:
>>> Given the number of network scavengers around
>>> this group, I suspect we could track the culprit down in short order
>>> given your N number.
>>
>> Yes, but posting my N-number more widely is one thing I'm trying to
>> avoid. I gave it privately to Al G after he privately sent me a
>> listing of all Pilatuses in the country. I've examined that list and
>> there's no good candidate for an honestly misremembered and transposed
>> number; the closest has one digit that's an 8 versus my 9 -- I can't
>> see anyone making that mistake, even with the briefest of glances.
>
> Maybe not with a glance, but with a quick scribble. He wrote an 8 that
> looked like a 9.
>
> My money's on that one.

Help me, please! I'm failing to see how this all relates to the OP about a
CC gotten though identity theft via the FAA database?

[Ron Natalie]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> m...
>> Even in the avgas burners, much of it is on the honor system.
>> I've had gas pumped where they just take my N-number. They
>> assume you're going to come in and settle up before you leave.
>
> At a card swipe gas pump?
>
>
No, at places with human fuelers.

[Bob Crawford]

On Jul 4, 12:43 pm, "Matt Barrow" >
wrote:
> "El Maximo" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "quietguy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >> On Jul 4, 10:27 am, Ron Natalie > wrote:
> >>> Given the number of network scavengers around
> >>> this group, I suspect we could track the culprit down in short order
> >>> given your N number.
>
> >> Yes, but posting my N-number more widely is one thing I'm trying to
> >> avoid. I gave it privately to Al G after he privately sent me a
> >> listing of all Pilatuses in the country. I've examined that list and
> >> there's no good candidate for an honestly misremembered and transposed
> >> number; the closest has one digit that's an 8 versus my 9 -- I can't
> >> see anyone making that mistake, even with the briefest of glances.
>
> > Maybe not with a glance, but with a quick scribble. He wrote an 8 that
> > looked like a 9.
>
> > My money's on that one.
>
> Help me, please! I'm failing to see how this all relates to the OP about a
> CC gotten though identity theft via the FAA database?

Matt -
OP (quietguy) has since discovered and posted that there was no CC
involved, just an N-number written down by a FBO clerk.
It looks doubtful that there was any identity theft via the FAA
database, but OP has raised some valid points about the availability
of info via the databases that everyone should be aware of.

[quietguy]

I've just spoken with the FBO manager. ATC records identified the
Pilatus; its tail-number is not my reserved number. The number I
spotted on AL G's list as the only possible miscopied number is the
one; apparently the flustered lineman tried to write the number he
remembered while glancing at a parked airplane and the two numbers
merged in his mind. Result: my number. The FBO will handle the
matter without my further involvement. A strange incident; not as bad
as I had feared, but it's prompted me to take stronger steps to
protect my personal data. That's going to be a project of mine for
some time to come.

[Taylor Hughes]

C J Campbell wrote:

> On 2007-06-30 20:26:11 -0700, quietguy > said:
>
> > His use of jet fuel is one thing
> > that will save me from having to pay for his travels. If he'd bought
> > 100LL I might very well have been stuck for the tab; the FBO might
> > have argued that I'd used the not-yet-airborne tail-number to bolster
> > a fraudulent claim of identity theft after actually fueling a flyable
> > aircraft.
>
> Pure nonsense. Federal laws limit your liability with stolen cards

True. The liability is limited to $50.00 for credit cards.

> and
> you have no liability at all for a fraudulent card.

Not necessarily, you could be liable for up to $50.00 under the regs/laws.
Mastercard and Visa both voluntarily limit liability to $0 for U.S. cards
*if* they agree that the transaction was fraud and *if* the card was from a
personal account. They don't extend this voluntary limit to business
credit cards. Beyond that, YMMV from bank to bank.

> Peter cannot
> collude with Paul to sell Paul 100 gallons of avgas (or anything else)
> and make you pay for it. This is a fundamental point of common law -- a
> third party cannot be bound by a contract between two other parties.

True

>
>
> If the FBO pursued its claim against you, you would be able to sue them
> for defamation, claim damages for fraud, and possibly press criminal
> charges for conspiracy to defraud you.

Under many states' consumer protection laws, including NJ, MA, and PA, if
you receive a bill that you are not responsible for you can sue for treble
(triple) damages and court/attorney fees if the other parties does not make
things whole in a set time frame. Typically this involves sending a demand
letter protesting unfair business practices and waiting 30 days from
receipt for the other party to rescind the phony bills. Example statue:
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/gl-93a-toc.htm (particularly section
9). Hope this helps!

[Taylor Hughes]

Dennis Johnson wrote:

> I'm also confused by this. If the thief paid by credit card at a self-serve
> pump, the FBO will get paid by the credit card company, no matter what.

Absolutely false. If you are a merchant and you accept a credit card that
proves to be fraudulent, sorry for you. The issuing bank will issue a charge
back to your bank and you will have the charges reversed. Plus you will pay a
significant charge back fee. If the situation happens automatically the fees
can go up and you can lose your merchant account.

That is why it behooves merchant to diligently check those signatures and hang
on to receipts with the signatures on them. If they accept credit cards without
signatures (e.g. at a self-fueling pump) the risks are increased and the
benefits of increased legitimate sales need to offset those risks.

[Taylor Hughes]

Ron Natalie wrote:

> quietguy wrote:
> > I've just received a "past due" invoice for the purchase of 250
> > gallons of Jet A from an FBO a thousand miles away on 20 May. The
> > invoice includes my name and address and the N-number of my airplane.
> > The trouble is: I'm not a jet pilot; haven't been to that city in
> > thirty years; the airplane with that N-number is still a-building in
> > my garage and it won't burn kerosene when it flies, anyway.
> >
>
> The airplane database is public knowledge. Use a corporation if
> you want anonymity.

States allow the public to find the registered owners of corporations (or
members of LLC). Some states make this really easy to do online.

[Jim Logajan]

Taylor Hughes > wrote:
> Ron Natalie wrote:
>> The airplane database is public knowledge. Use a corporation if
>> you want anonymity.
>
> States allow the public to find the registered owners of corporations (or
> members of LLC). Some states make this really easy to do online.

Wyoming is allegedly one of the best to incorporate when it comes to
privacy. Stockholders are not revealed to the state:

http://www.corporationstoday.com/compare.html#compare

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Taylor Hughes wrote:

> That is why it behooves merchant to diligently check those signatures
> and hang on to receipts with the signatures on them. If they accept
> credit cards without signatures (e.g. at a self-fueling pump) the
> risks are increased and the benefits of increased legitimate sales
> need to offset those risks.

Which almost none of them do. I know this because written next to my
signature on all of my cards are the words, "Check ID" in bold print. If one
were to look at the signature they could in no way miss it.

In the 15 - 20 years I have been putting this on credit and debit cards only
once has it ever been done.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Taylor Hughes" > wrote in message
...
> Dennis Johnson wrote:
>
>> I'm also confused by this. If the thief paid by credit card at a
>> self-serve
>> pump, the FBO will get paid by the credit card company, no matter what.
>
> Absolutely false. If you are a merchant and you accept a credit card that
> proves to be fraudulent, sorry for you. The issuing bank will issue a
> charge
> back to your bank and you will have the charges reversed. Plus you will
> pay a
> significant charge back fee. If the situation happens automatically the
> fees
> can go up and you can lose your merchant account.

Depends on the card.

>
> That is why it behooves merchant to diligently check those signatures and
> hang
> on to receipts with the signatures on them. If they accept credit cards
> without
> signatures (e.g. at a self-fueling pump) the risks are increased and the
> benefits of increased legitimate sales need to offset those risks.

So which is it? Signed or swiped?

How about if they accept a fraudulently issued card?

Remember, the topic was (originally) a falsely obtained card, not a stolen
one (of course, the OP meandered back and forth so many times...).

[Taylor Hughes]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

> Taylor Hughes wrote:
>
> > That is why it behooves merchant to diligently check those signatures
> > and hang on to receipts with the signatures on them. If they accept
> > credit cards without signatures (e.g. at a self-fueling pump) the
> > risks are increased and the benefits of increased legitimate sales
> > need to offset those risks.
>
> Which almost none of them do. I know this because written next to my
> signature on all of my cards are the words, "Check ID" in bold print. If one
> were to look at the signature they could in no way miss it.
>
> In the 15 - 20 years I have been putting this on credit and debit cards only
> once has it ever been done.

No argument with your observations, but sorry for the merchant who didn't bother
to check if there is a dispute.

[Taylor Hughes]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> "Taylor Hughes" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Dennis Johnson wrote:
> >
> >> I'm also confused by this. If the thief paid by credit card at a
> >> self-serve
> >> pump, the FBO will get paid by the credit card company, no matter what.
> >
> > Absolutely false. If you are a merchant and you accept a credit card that
> > proves to be fraudulent, sorry for you. The issuing bank will issue a
> > charge
> > back to your bank and you will have the charges reversed. Plus you will
> > pay a
> > significant charge back fee. If the situation happens automatically the
> > fees
> > can go up and you can lose your merchant account.
>
> Depends on the card.

Not really.


>
>
> >
> > That is why it behooves merchant to diligently check those signatures and
> > hang
> > on to receipts with the signatures on them. If they accept credit cards
> > without
> > signatures (e.g. at a self-fueling pump) the risks are increased and the
> > benefits of increased legitimate sales need to offset those risks.
>
> So which is it? Signed or swiped?

Very rarely are cards accepted in person (e.g. not online/phone order) with a
signature that haven't been swiped. This is usually only permissible if the mag
strip can't be read for some reason. A few merchant cat. codes require swiping.

>
>
> How about if they accept a fraudulently issued card?

The proof is in the pudding.

>
>
> Remember, the topic was (originally) a falsely obtained card, not a stolen
> one (of course, the OP meandered back and forth so many times...).

I read the whole thread and it wasn't clear to me that a card had been obtained
falsely.