O2 sensor?

[Blueskies]

Saw this posted to the Lycoming group, and it sounds like a pretty good idea. Anybody heard of it?

"A friend flying an IO-360 powered Glasair installed an oxygen sensor
system that has an panel mounted indicator light to show when balanced
combustion is reached. He simply adjusts mixture until the light comes
on and knows he has complete combustion (his theory is that EGT is
really just a good guess). He has had very good results from this
system in terms of fuel economy and performance.

I believe he purchased the system from Wag a few years ago. As I
recall it was for experimentals only. They do not currently list such
a system in their catalog. I have not found one at ACS&S or Chief either."

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Blueskies"> wrote

> "A friend flying an IO-360 powered Glasair installed an oxygen sensor
> system that has an panel mounted indicator light to show when balanced
> combustion is reached. He simply adjusts mixture until the light comes
> on and knows he has complete combustion (his theory is that EGT is
> really just a good guess). He has had very good results from this
> system in terms of fuel economy and performance.

How does it deal with the lead fouling issue?

I had always thought that Oxy sensors were only used while the engine was at
low power settings, and that once it was cranked up to full power, the
engines ran in a closed loop system, ignoring the Oxy sensor. I would think
a mass airflow sensor, and a programmed controller to set the mixture to the
ideal settings would be more useful.

I would be interested in seeing how much the mixture was changed, with the
advice of the Oxy sensor setup.

I have to admit that it does sound interesting.
--
Jim in NC

[Montblack]

("Morgans" wrote)
> I had always thought that Oxy sensors were only used while the engine was
> at low power settings, and that once it was cranked up to full power, the
> engines ran in a closed loop system, ignoring the Oxy sensor.


My reading of his post suggests it's a "monitor only" O2 sensor. With the
data from the O2 sensor, the pilot then controls the mixture manually.


Montblack

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Blueskies"> wrote
>
>> "A friend flying an IO-360 powered Glasair installed an oxygen sensor
>> system that has an panel mounted indicator light to show when balanced
>> combustion is reached. He simply adjusts mixture until the light comes
>> on and knows he has complete combustion (his theory is that EGT is
>> really just a good guess). He has had very good results from this
>> system in terms of fuel economy and performance.
>
> How does it deal with the lead fouling issue?
>
> I had always thought that Oxy sensors were only used while the engine was
> at low power settings, and that once it was cranked up to full power, the
> engines ran in a closed loop system, ignoring the Oxy sensor. I would
> think a mass airflow sensor, and a programmed controller to set the
> mixture to the ideal settings would be more useful.
>
> I would be interested in seeing how much the mixture was changed, with the
> advice of the Oxy sensor setup.
>

Yes, lead would be a problem - the sensor won't last long with av-gas.

You can run closed loop at most loads (depending on the type of sensor, you
can run closed loop even when you want to run rich for power)

For the most common sensor, the output "switches" as you pass through the
chemically correct mixture of air and fuel - but you get best economy at air
fuel ratios leaner than that...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Gary]

On Jul 2, 6:52 pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
> "Blueskies"> wrote
>
> > "A friend flying an IO-360 powered Glasair installed an oxygen sensor
> > system that has an panel mounted indicator light to show when balanced
> > combustion is reached. He simply adjusts mixture until the light comes
> > on and knows he has complete combustion (his theory is that EGT is
> > really just a good guess). He has had very good results from this
> > system in terms of fuel economy and performance.
>
> How does it deal with the lead fouling issue?
>
> I had always thought that Oxy sensors were only used while the engine was at
> low power settings, and that once it was cranked up to full power, the
> engines ran in a closed loop system, ignoring the Oxy sensor. I would think
> a mass airflow sensor, and a programmed controller to set the mixture to the
> ideal settings would be more useful.
>
> I would be interested in seeing how much the mixture was changed, with the
> advice of the Oxy sensor setup.
>
> I have to admit that it does sound interesting.
> --
> Jim in NC

Jim,
You have it backwards. EFI uses pre-programmed settings until the
engine reaches operating temperature. Then the system enters "closed
loop mode" and uses output from the O2 sensor to provide "fuel trim"
data which offsets the preprogrammed values for minimum emissions.
Some later model cars have electrically heated O2 sensors to allow for
closed loop mode quicker (EPA lower emission requirements).

When used with 100LL the O2 sensor will slowly become contaminated
and cease to work.

Gary also in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Montblack"> wrote

> My reading of his post suggests it's a "monitor only" O2 sensor. With the
> data from the O2 sensor, the pilot then controls the mixture manually.

I understood that to be the case also.

My point is that in auto systems, the oxy sensor information must not be
very valuable, since the computer ignores it at high power, which is where
this system is attempting to function.

Would the sensor/monitor have very much positive benefit, is my question.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Gary" > wrote

> Jim,
> You have it backwards. EFI uses pre-programmed settings until the
> engine reaches operating temperature. Then the system enters "closed
> loop mode" and uses output from the O2 sensor to provide "fuel trim"
> data which offsets the preprogrammed values for minimum emissions.
> Some later model cars have electrically heated O2 sensors to allow for
> closed loop mode quicker (EPA lower emission requirements).

Do you know of any web pages that discuss this type of thing? I would like
to read more.
--
Jim in NC

[Peter Dohm]

"Gary" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On Jul 2, 6:52 pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
> > "Blueskies"> wrote
> >
> > > "A friend flying an IO-360 powered Glasair installed an oxygen sensor
> > > system that has an panel mounted indicator light to show when balanced
> > > combustion is reached. He simply adjusts mixture until the light comes
> > > on and knows he has complete combustion (his theory is that EGT is
> > > really just a good guess). He has had very good results from this
> > > system in terms of fuel economy and performance.
> >
> > How does it deal with the lead fouling issue?
> >
> > I had always thought that Oxy sensors were only used while the engine
was at
> > low power settings, and that once it was cranked up to full power, the
> > engines ran in a closed loop system, ignoring the Oxy sensor. I would
think
> > a mass airflow sensor, and a programmed controller to set the mixture to
the
> > ideal settings would be more useful.
> >
> > I would be interested in seeing how much the mixture was changed, with
the
> > advice of the Oxy sensor setup.
> >
> > I have to admit that it does sound interesting.
> > --
> > Jim in NC
>
> Jim,
> You have it backwards. EFI uses pre-programmed settings until the
> engine reaches operating temperature. Then the system enters "closed
> loop mode" and uses output from the O2 sensor to provide "fuel trim"
> data which offsets the preprogrammed values for minimum emissions.
> Some later model cars have electrically heated O2 sensors to allow for
> closed loop mode quicker (EPA lower emission requirements).
>
> When used with 100LL the O2 sensor will slowly become contaminated
> and cease to work.
>
> Gary also in NC
>
I have been told that they slow down, but may not cease to work in the
absolute sense. In other works, they will become useless for the closed
loop control that an automotive ECM requires, but might remain quite useable
in the manner that a pilot might use them. As to a comparison between an O2
sensor and EGT, I just don't know; but I am quite curious.

BTW, it is probably usefull to think of the Open Loop Mode of the automotive
ECM at Wide Open Throttle as being analogous to the enrichment valve feature
of an aircraft carburetor. As soom as you no longer tramp the accelerator
firmly to the floor, the ECM will return to best economy (or possibly least
emissions) mixture--at least that is the impression which I received from
the limited litterature I read.

Peter
(Awaiting correction from any with real bench experience.)

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
...
<...> BTW, it is probably usefull to think of the Open Loop Mode of the
automotive
> ECM at Wide Open Throttle as being analogous to the enrichment valve
> feature
> of an aircraft carburetor. As soom as you no longer tramp the accelerator
> firmly to the floor, the ECM will return to best economy (or possibly
> least
> emissions) mixture--at least that is the impression which I received from
> the limited litterature I read.
>

Least emissions - it's all about the care and feeding of the three way
catalyst (Oxidizes CO and unburned HC, Reduces NOx (NO and NO2)). At best
economy (lean), the catalyst can't reduce the NOx.

With a wide band (or "universal") oxygen sensor, you can stay closed loop
even during power (or catalyst temperature protection) enrichment - but
those sensor cost $15-$20 more (at OEM prices) so they are less common.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Ernest Christley]

Peter Dohm wrote:
> I have been told that they slow down, but may not cease to work in the
> absolute sense. In other works, they will become useless for the closed
> loop control that an automotive ECM requires, but might remain quite useable
> in the manner that a pilot might use them. As to a comparison between an O2
> sensor and EGT, I just don't know; but I am quite curious.
>

Ed Anderson runs a rotary in his RV-6 and uses 100LL exclusively. This
is his experience. The O2 sensor is useless for driving an ECM, but
still responds faster than he can.

> emissions) mixture--at least that is the impression which I received from
> the limited litterature I read.
>

Do a Google search on Megasquirt (I just finished building one. Doing
the burn-in test right now). You'll get more data on how ECM, O2
sensors, electronic ignition, etc all work than you'll ever need to know.

[Dave S]

Blueskies wrote:
> Saw this posted to the Lycoming group, and it sounds like a pretty good idea. Anybody heard of it?
>
> "A friend flying an IO-360 powered Glasair installed an oxygen sensor
> system that has an panel mounted indicator light to show when balanced
> combustion is reached. He simply adjusts mixture until the light comes
> on and knows he has complete combustion (his theory is that EGT is
> really just a good guess). He has had very good results from this
> system in terms of fuel economy and performance.
>
> I believe he purchased the system from Wag a few years ago. As I
> recall it was for experimentals only. They do not currently list such
> a system in their catalog. I have not found one at ACS&S or Chief either."
>
>
>

Ok.. here's how it was explained to me, including stuff in the past few
days.. I am not speaking authoritatively, only repeating from a collage
of sources i've come across in the past 3 years.

The oxygen sensor is automotive. The indicator is automotive. You will
not find it in aviation catalogs. Go to your local auto parts store or
to a speed shop, or an online auto parts place like Summit Racing. They
sell sensors, indicators, and combination units.

A one wire sensor is a narrow band sensor and has a very narrow
detection range. It has a steep curve that corresponds to a range that
is immediately around stoichiometric air/fuel ratio (which corresponds
with peak EGT). The sensor only senses properly when its heated to at
least 800 degrees, so engine has to be operating for a bit to achieve
this. The bandwidth of the sensor may be inclusive of "best power" which
is slightly rich of peak. It is NOT inclusive of the optimal lean of
peak point, and this indication will be off scale - low.

A 3 wire sensor incorporates a heating element, to allow greater
responsiveness during initial starting and warmup. This is not necessary
for a mixture monitor observed by the pilot, but finds use in emissions
control for closed loop EFI's.

A 5 wire sensor incorporates a nonconsumable oxgyen generator of some
type, in addition to the heating elemet. I do not know how its
generated, but a mixture monitor or EFI that is able to offset the
oxygen reading with the oxygen generation value can be used as a wide
band oxygen sensor and can give a wide range of air fuel mixture
indications. This can reportedly be used to indicate optimum mixture for
lean of peak ops.

An EGT being used in a closed loop EFI situation must respond nearly
instantaneously.. in milliseconds. Being used in leaded fuel will
quickly render the sensor unuseable in this setting, for this cause.
However, even when the sensor degrades to perhaps 1/2 a second lag time,
this is still quicker than you can adjust the mixture manually, so even
in a leaded fuel situation, you can get a lot of life out of an oxygen
sensor.

One of the folks in the Rotary engine crowd has reported getting 85
hours out of an ordinary 1 wire oxy sensor with nothin but 100ll.
Running auto gas can sometimes undo the lead fouling to the point the
sensor remains viable over its normal service life.

1 wire oxy sensors are cheap as far as aviation prices go. Changing it
every 50 hours with your oil filter wouldnt be out of reason.

In my opinion the problem that would emerge here is the fairly common
circumstance of 4 different cylinders operating semi independently.
Until or unless you get them balanced (Gami?) so that they peak and/or
stumble together, an oxygen sensor on one pipe will indicate that one
pipe. If its after a collector it will present an average, and you could
still have a cylinder in the "danger zone". Under 75% power this likely
isnt going to be a problem. You can use it to find ideal mixture, then
manually lean from there.

[Ron Natalie]

Great if he's running autogas.
The first tank of 100LL he puts in it is going to kill that sensor.

[Blueskies]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message m...
> Great if he's running autogas.
> The first tank of 100LL he puts in it is going to kill that sensor.

Apparently not...

[Blueskies]

"Dave S" > wrote in message ink.net...
>
> Ok.. here's how it was explained to me, including stuff in the past few days.. I am not speaking authoritatively, only
> repeating from a collage of sources i've come across in the past 3 years.
>
>................snip A 5 wire sensor incorporates a nonconsumable oxgyen generator of some type, in addition to the
>heating elemet. I do not know how its generated, but a mixture monitor or EFI that is able to offset the oxygen reading
>with the oxygen generation value can be used as a wide band oxygen sensor and can give a wide range of air fuel
>mixture indications. This can reportedly be used to indicate optimum mixture for lean of peak ops.
>
> An EGT being used in a closed loop EFI situation must respond nearly instantaneously.. in milliseconds. Being used in
> leaded fuel will quickly render the sensor unuseable in this setting, for this cause.
> However, even when the sensor degrades to perhaps 1/2 a second lag time, this is still quicker than you can adjust the
> mixture manually, so even in a leaded fuel situation, you can get a lot of life out of an oxygen sensor.
>
> One of the folks in the Rotary engine crowd has reported getting 85 hours out of an ordinary 1 wire oxy sensor with
> nothin but 100ll. Running auto gas can sometimes undo the lead fouling to the point the sensor remains viable over its
> normal service life.
>
> 1 wire oxy sensors are cheap as far as aviation prices go. Changing it every 50 hours with your oil filter wouldnt be
> out of reason.
>


Interesting post...thanks...

[El Maximo]

"Blueskies" > wrote in message
.. .
> Saw this posted to the Lycoming group, and it sounds like a pretty good
> idea. Anybody heard of it?
>
> "A friend flying an IO-360 powered Glasair installed an oxygen sensor
> system that has an panel mounted indicator light to show when balanced
> combustion is reached. He simply adjusts mixture until the light comes
> on and knows he has complete combustion (his theory is that EGT is
> really just a good guess). He has had very good results from this
> system in terms of fuel economy and performance.
>
> I believe he purchased the system from Wag a few years ago. As I
> recall it was for experimentals only. They do not currently list such
> a system in their catalog. I have not found one at ACS&S or Chief
> either."
>

Interesting. That's how the carbs in late 80s and early 90s worked in Jeeps
(probably others too). They took a prefectly good carb and attached
'metering pins' to it to adjust the mixture based on the output of the O2
sensor.

It runs much better when you disable it.

>
>

[Woody]

You have it backwards. When the car first starts it is in open loop ignoring
the O2 sensor. Once in closed loop the O2 sensor is used to control mixture
and prevent pollution. Bad O2 sensor will burn out the Catalytic converter
because of too much fuel in exhaust.


"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Montblack"> wrote
>
>> My reading of his post suggests it's a "monitor only" O2 sensor. With the
>> data from the O2 sensor, the pilot then controls the mixture manually.
>
> I understood that to be the case also.
>
> My point is that in auto systems, the oxy sensor information must not be
> very valuable, since the computer ignores it at high power, which is where
> this system is attempting to function.
>
> Would the sensor/monitor have very much positive benefit, is my question.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[Ron Webb]

One thing I haven't seen yet in this string.

The point at which the o2 sensor shows as optimum is called the
stoicheometric point. Exactly enough fuel to combine with every molecule of
oxygen, and no more. that's an air fuel mixture of 14.7 to 1. In Electronic
Fuel Injection, the computer's job is to find this point, and stick to it
like a bulldog.

Unfortunately, that is not the point that air cooled aviation engines need
to be run. The exhaust gasses are hot enough to burn the valves at stoich
(in an air cooled engine), When you peak the tach, then go a little rich,
you wind up at about 10:1.

A normal O2 sensor, like the cheap ones used for auto purposes, is not a
nice readout of mixture, it's just a step function - "yes there is oxygen in
the exhaust", or "no there isn't." Wide range sensors are available, but not
cheap.

If this mixture readout has an expensive "wide range" O2 sensor, that you
propose to kill twice a year or so, the cost becomes a bit steeper.