I had 2 DUI's about 6 years ago, is it realistic for me to become a commercial pilot?

[[email protected]]

I had 2 Dui's (one when I was 21 and one when I was 22) and I'm now
almost 28. I was working on a degree in communications and I'm at
about the junior level, but my old dream of flying just came back to
me all of the sudden and I thought I would make absolutely sure if
those DUI's will be more than just an obstacle for me.

Where I am at now is just trying to figure out how I can be sure one
way or another. How do I get the official thumbs up or down? I can't
bring myself to invest all that money only to be unsure and have to
wait until I get further down the road and committed to find out.

A teacher at the community college I go to now said he wasn't sure
about 2 dui's but he's seen people overcome one. He also gave me the
website www.jet-jobs.com for Air Inc, and said they can advise me and
they charge for their services. I thought I'd exhaust all my options
and ask here first/as well.

Any help, advice, or experience is really appreciated. Feel free to
email me!
Thanks,
Jarrod

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>I had 2 Dui's (one when I was 21 and one when I was 22) and I'm now
> almost 28. I was working on a degree in communications

I don't know the answer I'm sorry, but I did have a chuckle at the fact you
were studying communications, and didn't 'get the message' after the first
DUI. ;-)
Crash Lander
--
http://straightandlevel1973.spaces.live.com/
I'm not always right,
But I'm never wrong!

[Hawkeye[_2_]]

Why not call the FAA direct and ask the source?

[tony roberts]

> Any help, advice, or experience is really appreciated. Feel free to
> email me!
> Thanks,
> Jarrod

If you join AOPA they will advise you on this or will point you to the
people who can.

Tony


--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

tony roberts wrote:
>> Any help, advice, or experience is really appreciated. Feel free to
>> email me!
>
> If you join AOPA they will advise you on this or will point you to the
> people who can.


I like Hawkeye's answer better. Calling the FAA is free. AOPA is an excellent
choice for those who are actually flying, but I wouldn't join unless I was
pretty sure I was going to fly. What if they say nobody has ever done it?
That's a lot of money for a membership that may not be useable.

I see this from two sides: 1) two DUIs are unexcusable. People who drink and
drive and then drink and drive again are bound to do it yet again. I don't want
to share the sky with such a person.

2) OTOH, we all do stupid things when we're young. The only difference between
Tony and myself is that he got caught. And knowing that, I also know mistakes
made at an early age don't have to be repeated. I stopped drinking and driving
when I was in my early 20s and in fact seldom drink at all today. People can
change.

So it's a crapshoot. I don't know how the FAA is going to look at this but I'd
be inclined to forget his youthful indiscretions. One other DUI though... and
it's out on his ass. But that's just my opinion.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Montblack]

("Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote)
> 2) OTOH, we all do stupid things when we're young. The only difference
> between Tony and myself is that he got caught. And knowing that, I also
> know mistakes made at an early age don't have to be repeated. I stopped
> drinking and driving when I was in my early 20s and in fact seldom drink
> at all today. People can change.


A local TV station did a 'watch us drink' report. Their blood alcohol levels
were all over the map. Individuals metabolize alcohol at wildly different
rates - according to the report. It was scary how one person was 3 drinks
and yet another was 8 drinks - before being over .08. Both people were of
similar build, btw.


Montblack

[Big John]

Jarrod

Check your State laws. Some States keep your DUI record forever I'm
told.

Other States wash your record out after a period of time, 5 years, 10
years or some such.

If your State gives you a clean record then should not be a problem
with FAA even if they have some rules about multiple DUI's????

Big John
*********************************

On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 01:31:27 -0000, wrote:

>I had 2 Dui's (one when I was 21 and one when I was 22) and I'm now
>almost 28. I was working on a degree in communications and I'm at
>about the junior level, but my old dream of flying just came back to
>me all of the sudden and I thought I would make absolutely sure if
>those DUI's will be more than just an obstacle for me.
>
>Where I am at now is just trying to figure out how I can be sure one
>way or another. How do I get the official thumbs up or down? I can't
>bring myself to invest all that money only to be unsure and have to
>wait until I get further down the road and committed to find out.
>
>A teacher at the community college I go to now said he wasn't sure
>about 2 dui's but he's seen people overcome one. He also gave me the
>website www.jet-jobs.com for Air Inc, and said they can advise me and
>they charge for their services. I thought I'd exhaust all my options
>and ask here first/as well.
>
>Any help, advice, or experience is really appreciated. Feel free to
>email me!
>Thanks,
>Jarrod

[Christopher Brian Colohan]

writes:
> Where I am at now is just trying to figure out how I can be sure one
> way or another. How do I get the official thumbs up or down? I can't
> bring myself to invest all that money only to be unsure and have to
> wait until I get further down the road and committed to find out.

Let's say you get the "official" thumbs up from the FAA. You go
through your training, and become a pilot. Now you need to go and
find a job...

Before committing to this route, you should not only ask the FAA, but
also try to get a feel for your chances of finding a job when you
finish. Perhaps it makes sense to talk to some airline recruiters or
professional pilots to see if the DUIs will hurt your chances of
getting a good job when you finish?

Chris

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Big John" > wrote

> Check your State laws. Some States keep your DUI record forever I'm
> told.
>
> Other States wash your record out after a period of time, 5 years, 10
> years or some such.
>
> If your State gives you a clean record then should not be a problem
> with FAA even if they have some rules about multiple DUI's????

I didn't pay real close attention to what I read in the very recent past,
but word is that the FAA is wanting to get real strict about how they handle
DUI's and pilots.

Anyone else remember anything about that? I think it was in the last two
weeks, and I read it in AvWeb.
--
Jim in NC

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 02:53:25 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote in >:

>but word is that the FAA is wanting to get real strict about how they handle
>DUI's and pilots.
>
>Anyone else remember anything about that? I think it was in the last two
>weeks, and I read it in AvWeb.


It looks like it's the NTSB:


NTSB WANTS MORE OVERSIGHT OF SUBSTANCE-DEPENDENT PILOTS
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/895-full.html#195496)
The FAA needs to do more to ensure that pilots dependent on
substances such as drugs and alcohol are properly evaluated by
aviation medical examiners, the NTSB said
(http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2007/A07_41_43.pdf) on Monday. A
number of aircraft accidents have occurred when the pilot's
substance dependence was relevant to the cause, according to the
Safety Board. The NTSB said the FAA should require pilots to
provide copies of arrest reports and court records to their
examiner prior to clinical evaluation. Those records, it added,
should be kept on file in the Aerospace Medical Certification
Division, where they can be accessed in regard to any application
for a medical certificate. Also, airmen who have been clinically
diagnosed with substance dependence, including dependence on
alcohol, should be medically certified only under a
special-issuance waiver, the NTSB said.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/895-full.html#195496

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> I had 2 Dui's (one when I was 21 and one when I was 22) and I'm now
> almost 28. I was working on a degree in communications and I'm at
> about the junior level, but my old dream of flying just came back to
> me all of the sudden and I thought I would make absolutely sure if
> those DUI's will be more than just an obstacle for me.

The important question is: Do you still drink?

[tom418]

Good point. The requirements of airlines are often more stringent than
those of the FAA.
"Christopher Brian Colohan" > wrote in message
...
> writes:
> > Where I am at now is just trying to figure out how I can be sure one
> > way or another. How do I get the official thumbs up or down? I can't
> > bring myself to invest all that money only to be unsure and have to
> > wait until I get further down the road and committed to find out.
>
> Let's say you get the "official" thumbs up from the FAA. You go
> through your training, and become a pilot. Now you need to go and
> find a job...
>
> Before committing to this route, you should not only ask the FAA, but
> also try to get a feel for your chances of finding a job when you
> finish. Perhaps it makes sense to talk to some airline recruiters or
> professional pilots to see if the DUIs will hurt your chances of
> getting a good job when you finish?
>
> Chris

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> writes:
>
>> I had 2 Dui's (one when I was 21 and one when I was 22) and I'm now
>> almost 28. I was working on a degree in communications and I'm at
>> about the junior level, but my old dream of flying just came back to
>> me all of the sudden and I thought I would make absolutely sure if
>> those DUI's will be more than just an obstacle for me.
>
> The important question is: Do you still drink?

Actually, that question is completely irrelevant to the question posed.

To the OP: If you're new to rec.aviation.piloting, go check out google
groups for the posting history of MXSMANIC. You'll find he is an expert on
everything, and rarely correct.

[Ron Natalie]

Big John wrote:
> Jarrod
>
> Check your State laws. Some States keep your DUI record forever I'm
> told.
>
> Other States wash your record out after a period of time, 5 years, 10
> years or some such.
>
> If your State gives you a clean record then should not be a problem
> with FAA even if they have some rules about multiple DUI's????
>
> Big John

Unless you are going to lie to the FAA, I'm not sure why the FAA should
matter. Unless you're in one of the few loosie goosey states, the
criminal conviction is every hard to erase, even if a casual NDIC search
doesn't show it (which is what the FAA does in the casual case).

Your EMPLOYER on the other hand, may do a criminal records search which
will be more comprehensive.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:12:09 -0400, tom418 wrote:

> Good point. The requirements of airlines are often more stringent than
> those of the FAA.


You know, it's not completely clear to me that the OP wants a flying job.
He did cite one relevant web site, but...

[I know that, much as I love flying, I prefer my non-flying job (esp.
where I get to be home every evening).]

More, the airlines are not the only jobs to be had that involve flying.
They may be the best paying (or not; I don't really know but I do observe
that people here largely seem to think of those jobs as the ideal), but
there are alternatives.

- Andrew

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Montblack wrote:
>
> A local TV station did a 'watch us drink' report.

One of ours did the same.

Get this... <G>

The "watchee" was a local MADD activist, and the public demo was done at
the state capitol. The "watchee" got busted for a real DUI a month later:

<http://www.boston.com/news/local/connecticut/articles/2007/05/15/volunteer_for_anti_drunken_driving_group_charged_w ith_dui/>

[[email protected]]

Jarrod, I can't answer the FAA question, but would encourage you to
see what you can do to get those DUIs off your record. A lawyer might
help. My point is this: my husband owns and runs a high tech companny,
and he mentioned someone with a DUI on his or her record would have to
bring a lot of unique skills to the table before he'd consider hiring
him.

It's rotten, I know, but the hiring idea is this -- it's much better
to reject otherwise good applicants than to accept one who might be a
greater than normal risk, and his employees do not fly airplanes (he
does, though!).

I think there are lots of commercial flying jobs, but there are even
more highly qualitified pilots looking for them (think of the guys and
women leaving the service with lots of time logged) so if it's
possible get those things off your record.

And for God's sake, don't do anything that will add to the record.

On the positive side, I can tell you we have a friend who is
recovering for 19 years, and he goes to AA. So many of the members
there are very successful (MDs business men, that sort of thing) and
they are very free with advice to other members. They may even have
ideas you won't hear here. I am NOT making the assumption you need AA,
just telling something I happen to know about the organization.



Good luck.

On Jul 4, 9:31 pm, wrote:
> I had 2 Dui's (one when I was 21 and one when I was 22) and I'm now
> almost 28. I was working on a degree in communications and I'm at
> about the junior level, but my old dream of flying just came back to
> me all of the sudden and I thought I would make absolutely sure if
> those DUI's will be more than just an obstacle for me.
>
> Where I am at now is just trying to figure out how I can be sure one
> way or another. How do I get the official thumbs up or down? I can't
> bring myself to invest all that money only to be unsure and have to
> wait until I get further down the road and committed to find out.
>
> A teacher at the community college I go to now said he wasn't sure
> about 2 dui's but he's seen people overcome one. He also gave me the
> websitewww.jet-jobs.comfor Air Inc, and said they can advise me and
> they charge for their services. I thought I'd exhaust all my options
> and ask here first/as well.
>
> Any help, advice, or experience is really appreciated. Feel free to
> email me!
> Thanks,
> Jarrod

[Luke Skywalker]

On Jul 4, 8:31 pm, wrote:


Pretty good suggestions in the thread. Mine would be:

First check and make sure that they are on your record. there is a
way to do that.

Second Are you still drinking is a relevant question. You need to
understand yourself "how" you came to be DWI...ie childish college
thing (the age suggest this) or are you having some problem with
alcohol?

Third. I believe that you can get airman certificates..and getting
capable for a real job...is going to take some time so more time will
pass between your DUI and the present. But an airline job is going to
be a hard hill to climb...unless there are some "guality" jobs in
between the DUI and "now" and you are going to have to have a really
good explanation of 1) how it happened, 2) what you learned from it
and 3) that it has never happened again...I mean you are going to need
to be like Ceaser's wife...above reproach.

When I was at an airline (that went bust of course) but was a boeing
operator we hired one pilot who had a DWI...she had a very good
explanation for number 3...and we made it clear that anything in the
future was a "big problem"...she claimed, and it was believable that
she was done drinking. AS best I can tell that was accurate and we
never had a hint of trouble with her.

Good luck.

Robert

[Viperdoc[_4_]]

MXSMANIC talks a lot, acts like an expert, but knows little. He is not a
pilot, and in fact has stated that he is afraid to fly.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "El Maximo" > said:
>"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>> writes:
>>
>>> I had 2 Dui's (one when I was 21 and one when I was 22) and I'm now
>>> almost 28. I was working on a degree in communications and I'm at
>>> about the junior level, but my old dream of flying just came back to
>>> me all of the sudden and I thought I would make absolutely sure if
>>> those DUI's will be more than just an obstacle for me.
>>
>> The important question is: Do you still drink?
>
>Actually, that question is completely irrelevant to the question posed.

A stopped clock is right twice a day, and I believe in this case MXMORON
accidentally asked a pertinent question.

A person who didn't learn from the first DUI is either an idiot or an
alcoholic. Now maybe he was just an idiot and grew out of it, or maybe
he's a borderline alcoholic who is likely to drink and drive (or fly)
again. Personally, I would want to see evidence that he doesn't drink
enough to get drunk regularly.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"If you get upset, emotional, or angry you are not dealing with the
emergency"
-- Rick Grant (quoting RCAF pilot training)

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:

> > I had 2 Dui's (one when I was 21 and one when I was 22) and I'm now
> > almost 28. I was working on a degree in communications and I'm at
> > about the junior level, but my old dream of flying just came back to
> > me all of the sudden and I thought I would make absolutely sure if
> > those DUI's will be more than just an obstacle for me.

> The important question is: Do you still drink?

Nope.

What would be an important question for a whole other discussion is:
Do you now drink responsibly or are you still acting like a kid?

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Vaughn Simon]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Jarrod
>
> Check your State laws. Some States keep your DUI record forever I'm
> told.
>
> Other States wash your record out after a period of time, 5 years, 10
> years or some such.
>
> If your State gives you a clean record then should not be a problem
> with FAA even if they have some rules about multiple DUI's????

Unless you are willing to lie on your FAA Form 8500-8, your state's records
don't matter. The question is very plain:" History of (1) any conviction
involving driving while intoxicated..."

They mean just that..."any". You are not allowed to leave anything out.

[buttman]

On Jul 5, 6:23 pm, "Vaughn Simon" >
wrote:
>
> Unless you are willing to lie on your FAA Form 8500-8, your state's records
> don't matter. The question is very plain:" History of (1) any conviction
> involving driving while intoxicated..."
>
> They mean just that..."any". You are not allowed to leave anything out.

....unless your record was expunged.

If it got erased from your record, it never happened. Thats the whole
point of going through the trouble of getting your record erased.

[Luke Skywalker]

On Jul 5, 8:44 pm, buttman > wrote:
> On Jul 5, 6:23 pm, "Vaughn Simon" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Unless you are willing to lie on your FAA Form 8500-8, your state's records
> > don't matter. The question is very plain:" History of (1) any conviction
> > involving driving while intoxicated..."
>
> > They mean just that..."any". You are not allowed to leave anything out.
>
> ...unless your record was expunged.
>
> If it got erased from your record, it never happened. Thats the whole
> point of going through the trouble of getting your record erased.


No...not so much. The FAA is fairly clear on this. If you have a DWI
no matter what has happened to it in the past you need to tell them
that this has happened....you can explain it as it has been expunged
etc.

But you will risk airman certificate action if they find out
independtly that you have had a DWI and did not inform them. Those
words were chosen very carefully for that.

Call up any FSDO and ask that question and you will I believe get that
response.

I know of at least two airline pilots who are doing something else
because they lost their certificates in just such a manner.

In both cases while the state in question had expunged the conviction
because of "time"...other evidence was developed in a legal manner by
federal law enforcement officers which pointed to a DWI and the FAA
did not hesitate in initiating certificate action.

Robert

[Mike Schumann]

$39 is a lot of money???? The magazine is worth it if you are interested in
airplanes, whether or not you decide to get your license.

The question is not just whether you can get a commercial or ATP license,
but more importantly, will anyone hire you with this kind of history. The
FAA can't tell you that. AOPA might give you some idea. I suspect that a
career guidance office at a reputable school that trains professional pilots
(Embree Riddle, Purdue, UND, etc.....) would be an even better source for
this kind of information.

Mike Schumann

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> tony roberts wrote:
>>> Any help, advice, or experience is really appreciated. Feel free to
>>> email me!
>>
>> If you join AOPA they will advise you on this or will point you to the
>> people who can.
>
>
> I like Hawkeye's answer better. Calling the FAA is free. AOPA is an
> excellent choice for those who are actually flying, but I wouldn't join
> unless I was pretty sure I was going to fly. What if they say nobody has
> ever done it? That's a lot of money for a membership that may not be
> useable.
>
> I see this from two sides: 1) two DUIs are unexcusable. People who drink
> and drive and then drink and drive again are bound to do it yet again. I
> don't want to share the sky with such a person.
>
> 2) OTOH, we all do stupid things when we're young. The only difference
> between Tony and myself is that he got caught. And knowing that, I also
> know mistakes made at an early age don't have to be repeated. I stopped
> drinking and driving when I was in my early 20s and in fact seldom drink
> at all today. People can change.
>
> So it's a crapshoot. I don't know how the FAA is going to look at this
> but I'd be inclined to forget his youthful indiscretions. One other DUI
> though... and it's out on his ass. But that's just my opinion.
>
>
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
>
>



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Union Thug]

On Jul 4, 6:31 pm, wrote:
> I had 2 Dui's (one when I was 21 and one when I was 22) and I'm now
> almost 28. I was working on a degree in communications and I'm at
> about the junior level, but my old dream of flying just came back to
> me all of the sudden and I thought I would make absolutely sure if
> those DUI's will be more than just an obstacle for me.
>
> Where I am at now is just trying to figure out how I can be sure one
> way or another. How do I get the official thumbs up or down? I can't
> bring myself to invest all that money only to be unsure and have to
> wait until I get further down the road and committed to find out.
>

Jarrod,
I was going to email you but I thought I would post here in case
anyone else might be interested. You have two separate issues here,
The FAA and your future employer. I will start with the employer. I
have been flying the line for nearly 20 years, first at a regional and
then a major airline, and I have heard this question and others like
it many times. I also want to say that there have been some exellent
responses from others on this thread, and I dont want to undo anything
that they have said, but I hope my observations will be helpful.
The airline I currently work for has a high regard for employee
references. They solicit references from us all the time, and in so
doing they have fielded questions about what would help (Or hinder) a
candidate. As you can imagine, the subject of driving records and
criminal history has come up. For liability reasons, the company has
had to play this one pretty close to the vest. So if you get an answer
from AOPA or JetJobs or whoever, it is probably not going to be very
accurate. In fact, I have read more bull**** in JetJobs (And others
companies like them) about my own airline than you can imagine. This
being said, my company has hired pilots with criminal backrounds, but
(They stress this) it is done on a case by case basis. One thing I can
tell you for sure is that you will improve your odds by staying out of
trouble since these convictions. The longer you show a clean record,
the better. Whatever you do, dont lie on your application. This is a
sure fire way to get fired. Some airlines have made this easy by
asking a time limited question ie; " Have you been convicted in the
past 7 years". Unfortunatly for some mine doesnt do that. You may wish
to check with a prospective employer on this.
As for the FAA, I think this question was answered very well (You have
to disclose), but check with an aviation attorney on this just to be
sure. In fact, do not rely on any legal advise you get on this forum,
always back it up with an attorney.
KB

> Jarrod

[Jim Stewart]

Richard Riley wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:29:19 -0700, Luke Skywalker
> > wrote:
>
>> I know of at least two airline pilots who are doing something else
>> because they lost their certificates in just such a manner.
>>
>> In both cases while the state in question had expunged the conviction
>> because of "time"...other evidence was developed in a legal manner by
>> federal law enforcement officers which pointed to a DWI and the FAA
>> did not hesitate in initiating certificate action.
>
>
> http://www.bootsnall.com/guides/05-10/drunk-pilots.html
>
>
> Epilogue:
>
> Among the most inspirational stories out there is that of Northwest
> Airlines captain Lyle Prouse, one of the trio arrested that morning in
> Minneapolis in 1990. Prouse, an alcoholic whose parents had died of
> the disease, became a poster pilot of punishment and redemption. He
> was given 16 months in federal prison for flying drunk, and then, in a
> remarkable and improbable sequence of events, was able to return to
> the cockpit on his 60th birthday and retire as a 747 captain. Once out
> of jail, Prouse was forced to requalify for every one of his FAA
> licenses and ratings. Broke, he relied on a friend to lend him stick
> time in a single-engine trainer. Northwest's then-CEO John Dasburg,
> who himself had grown up in an alcoholic family, took personal
> interest in Prouse's struggle and lobbied publicly for his return.
>
> You'll see Prouse in TV interviews time to time, and inevitably you're
> struck by how forthrightly he takes responsibility, without resorting
> to the sobby self-flagellation of most public apologies. Always one is
> left, unexpectedly, to conclude this convicted felon deserved, and
> got, a second chance. I'd never have believed it myself until watching
> a network special about Prouse a few years ago.
>
> In 2001 Lyle Prouse was among those granted Presidential pardons by
> Bill Clinton.
>

Much of Lyle's story can be read on the pprune forum. He
starts at post #52 in the attached link. An amazing man
and story.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256861&page=3

[RST Engineering]

There are two answers, one trivially easy and the other a bit more
complicated.

One, spend $100 and go to your local aviation medical examiner (the local
FAA Flight Standards District Office has a list) and take the medical exam.
List the DUIs as required by the form. If the FAA gives you your medical,
no problem. If it wants more data, then you go the "how do I get out of
this box" answers.

Two, some aviation jobs will check you back to the day you arrived slimy wet
in the hospital. Others will take you if you appear to be warm and
breathing. Nobody can give you the answer to this.

Jim

--
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in
a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, with chocolate in one hand and wine in
the other, loudly proclaiming 'WOO HOO What a Ride!'"
--Unknown

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>I had 2 Dui's (one when I was 21 and one when I was 22) and I'm now
> almost 28. I was working on a degree in communications and I'm at
> about the junior level, but my old dream of flying just came back to
> me all of the sudden and I thought I would make absolutely sure if
> those DUI's will be more than just an obstacle for me.

[Mxsmanic]

El Maximo writes:

> Actually, that question is completely irrelevant to the question posed.

No, it is not. The FAA is concerned about pilots who fly while drunk; it
doesn't care how many times they've been drunk in the past while not flying.
Their concern with DUI is to try to predict who is likely to become drunk
before flying today, not in the past. Since they cannot check every pilot
before every flight, they try to predict and move proactively.

If this prospective pilot no longer drinks, he should do what is necessary to
prove that to the FAA so that he can get his medical. If he still drinks, he
should think twice. Generally, one DUI is an extremely bad sign, and two
should logically be a showstopper, but there are exceptions to every rule (and
there are pilots who get drunk and kill themselves and others).

[Mxsmanic]

Paul Tomblin writes:

> A person who didn't learn from the first DUI is either an idiot or an
> alcoholic. Now maybe he was just an idiot and grew out of it, or maybe
> he's a borderline alcoholic who is likely to drink and drive (or fly)
> again. Personally, I would want to see evidence that he doesn't drink
> enough to get drunk regularly.

Exactly. One DUI is strong evidence of alcoholism; two DUIs is virtually
proof of it. So the question is whether or not this person still drinks. If
he still drinks at all, he needs to stay on the ground.

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> What would be an important question for a whole other discussion is:
> Do you now drink responsibly or are you still acting like a kid?

Two DUIs is strong evidence of irresponsibility or alcoholism, neither of
which is compatible with safe flight.

[A Guy Called Tyketto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Paul Tomblin writes:
>
>> A person who didn't learn from the first DUI is either an idiot or an
>> alcoholic. Now maybe he was just an idiot and grew out of it, or maybe
>> he's a borderline alcoholic who is likely to drink and drive (or fly)
>> again. Personally, I would want to see evidence that he doesn't drink
>> enough to get drunk regularly.
>
> Exactly. One DUI is strong evidence of alcoholism; two DUIs is virtually
> proof of it. So the question is whether or not this person still drinks. If
> he still drinks at all, he needs to stay on the ground.

You have a source you can cite to back up this claim?

I personally happen to know someone who was cited twice for
this because she was the designated driver, and the fool she was taking
home left an open bottle of alcohol in her back seat.

Yet, she never had a sip.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! :) | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

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[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:

> > What would be an important question for a whole other discussion is:
> > Do you now drink responsibly or are you still acting like a kid?

> Two DUIs is strong evidence of irresponsibility or alcoholism, neither of
> which is compatible with safe flight.

You said before it was alcoholism. Are you changing your story?

Life is very seldom black and white, which is about all you seem
capable of understanding.

And since you don't fly and will never fly, I haven't the slightest
interest in what you think makes a safe flight.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:
> I personally happen to know someone who was cited twice for
> this because she was the designated driver, and the fool she was taking
> home left an open bottle of alcohol in her back seat.
>
> Yet, she never had a sip.



How can you be charged with a DUI with a blood alcohol of zero? She was guilty
of having an open container; not DUI.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[B A R R Y]

On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 05:03:17 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
<mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote:

>A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:
>> I personally happen to know someone who was cited twice for
>> this because she was the designated driver, and the fool she was taking
>> home left an open bottle of alcohol in her back seat.
>>
>> Yet, she never had a sip.
>
>
>
>How can you be charged with a DUI with a blood alcohol of zero? She was guilty
>of having an open container; not DUI.


That has to be total BS, or there is more to the story.

Did this person actually bother to get a real lawyer and fight the
charges?

Were they "convicted" or "cited"?

Were they under the influence of something else, like a prescription
drug, that prevented them from passing a sobriety test?

Twice?

[Viperdoc[_4_]]

He is not a pilot, physician, or AME. He has absolutely no idea what the FAA
will think about this individual's application.

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> Life is very seldom black and white, which is about all you seem
> capable of understanding.

In matters of safety, sometimes it is necessary to reduce the shades of gray
to black and white, and then make a decision.

[Viperdoc[_4_]]

Since you are not a pilot, do not hold a medical, are not an AME, and do not
represent the FAA, no one cares about your opinion.

[El Maximo]

"Viperdoc" > wrote in message
...
> Since you are not a pilot, do not hold a medical, are not an AME, and do
> not represent the FAA, no one cares about your opinion.
>

Before the normal inane response: Viperdoc also speaks my opinion on this
subject.

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> writes:
>
>> Life is very seldom black and white, which is about all you seem
>> capable of understanding.
>
> In matters of safety, sometimes it is necessary to reduce the shades of
> gray
> to black and white, and then make a decision.

And is eliminating the grey, you've eliminated information. Only you believe
this is a good thing.....

[Denny]

>
> Any help, advice, or experience is really appreciated. Feel free to
> email me!
> Thanks,
> Jarrod

I F you have been clean for 6 years A N D you have a clean driving
record since the last DUI with no moving violations I tend to think
you have a good chance...

Get some letters of recommendation attesting to your clean lifestyle -
including one from your family doc that he has no evidence of
substance abuse - and go apply for a student license... I would not
waste money on a lawyer... Either the FAA legal staff will buy your
new found way of living clean or they won't - and machinations by
counsel won't change facts here... The only machination I might
suggest would be to get a concealed carry handgun license if you can
- that will carry some weight with OK City...

I know some of the senior AME folks who work with heart patients,
diabetics, etc. and are expert in this area of FAA regulation. If you
are near Michigan let me know and I will put you into their hands...

My advice, go for it...

denny

[Big John]

I have seen a few GA accident reports where a 'good old boy' had been
drinking and had an accident, sometimes killing himself and some or
all of his passengers. Very rare but has happened.

I have NEVER seen an Airline fatal accident where the remains of the
pilots were checked for alcohol and either one found positive.

Anyone dispute these comments and can provide source?

Big John
************************************************** **************



On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:09:55 +0200, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

writes:
>
>> Life is very seldom black and white, which is about all you seem
>> capable of understanding.
>
>In matters of safety, sometimes it is necessary to reduce the shades of gray
>to black and white, and then make a decision.

[Jim Logajan]

Big John > wrote:
> I have NEVER seen an Airline fatal accident where the remains of the
> pilots were checked for alcohol and either one found positive.
>
> Anyone dispute these comments and can provide source?

Here's an article from 2005 that seems relevant:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=18691

"In crashes of commuter aircraft or air taxis, measurable BACs were found
in only three of 108 pilots who died between 1983 and 1988, and there are
no cases where alcohol has been implicated as a probable cause in a fatal
crash of a major U.S. airline."

[Big John]

Jim

I can believe the data on the Commuter/Air Taxi's. Their erratic
flight schedule and low pay scales and single pilot operation puts
lots of pressure on those Jocks. My original comments put them in the
GA column.

All of the Airline crews are dual pilot so even if one has had a few
drinks the two pilot cockpit has give a real time operational safety
as a dearth of fatal accidents show.

Big John
************************************************** *******



On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:21:11 -0000, Jim Logajan >
wrote:

>Big John > wrote:
>> I have NEVER seen an Airline fatal accident where the remains of the
>> pilots were checked for alcohol and either one found positive.
>>
>> Anyone dispute these comments and can provide source?
>
>Here's an article from 2005 that seems relevant:
>
>http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=18691
>
>"In crashes of commuter aircraft or air taxis, measurable BACs were found
>in only three of 108 pilots who died between 1983 and 1988, and there are
>no cases where alcohol has been implicated as a probable cause in a fatal
>crash of a major U.S. airline."

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Big John > said:
>All of the Airline crews are dual pilot so even if one has had a few
>drinks the two pilot cockpit has give a real time operational safety
>as a dearth of fatal accidents show.

However, there have been numerous cases where impaired pilots had to be
taken off an airliner. The most famous incident was where *both*
Northwest pilots for a flight were drunk.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
'Vegetarian' -- it's an old Indian word meaning 'lousy hunter'.
-- Red Green

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, Big John > said:
>>All of the Airline crews are dual pilot so even if one has had a few
>>drinks the two pilot cockpit has give a real time operational safety
>>as a dearth of fatal accidents show.
>
> However, there have been numerous cases where impaired pilots had to be
> taken off an airliner. The most famous incident was where *both*
> Northwest pilots for a flight were drunk.

How many flights have been conducted where one or both of the pilots had been
out partying the night before, and were "considerably less than sharp" for their
flights? If one serious challenge to the flight had happened, would they have
been sharp enough to prevent a crash?
--
Jim in NC

[A Guy Called Tyketto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

B A R R Y > wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 05:03:17 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
> <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:
>>> I personally happen to know someone who was cited twice for
>>> this because she was the designated driver, and the fool she was taking
>>> home left an open bottle of alcohol in her back seat.
>>>
>>> Yet, she never had a sip.
>>
>>
>>
>>How can you be charged with a DUI with a blood alcohol of zero? She was guilty
>>of having an open container; not DUI.
>
>
> That has to be total BS, or there is more to the story.
>
> Did this person actually bother to get a real lawyer and fight the
> charges?
>
> Were they "convicted" or "cited"?

Cited, not convicted. She actually did get a lawyer and contest
the citation. It was dismissed. Even the issue of the open bottle was
dropped, as the person who was drinking came to the proceedings and
mentioned that it was his bottle.

> Were they under the influence of something else, like a prescription
> drug, that prevented them from passing a sobriety test?

I know that at the time, she was taking prescription meds for
depression, but I don't know if she had taken them when this all
happened.

> Twice?

Amazing the things that happen in a small desert town called
Las Vegas. :)

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! :) | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

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[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> What would be an important question for a whole other discussion is:
>> Do you now drink responsibly or are you still acting like a kid?
>
> Two DUIs is strong evidence of irresponsibility or alcoholism, neither
of
> which is compatible with safe flight.
>



How would you know?

You don't fly


Fjukkwit


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> El Maximo writes:
>
>> Actually, that question is completely irrelevant to the question
>> posed.
>
> No, it is not. The FAA is concerned about pilots who fly while drunk;
> it doesn't care how many times they've been drunk in the past while
> not flying. Their concern with DUI is to try to predict who is likely
> to become drunk before flying today, not in the past. Since they
> cannot check every pilot before every flight, they try to predict and
> move proactively.


Nopekl worng again fjukkwit


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Paul Tomblin writes:
>
>> A person who didn't learn from the first DUI is either an idiot or an
>> alcoholic. Now maybe he was just an idiot and grew out of it, or
>> maybe he's a borderline alcoholic who is likely to drink and drive
>> (or fly) again. Personally, I would want to see evidence that he
>> doesn't drink enough to get drunk regularly.
>
> Exactly. One DUI is strong evidence of alcoholism; two DUIs is
> virtually proof of it. So the question is whether or not this person
> still drinks. If he still drinks at all, he needs to stay on the
> ground.
>


Wrong again, fjukkwit


Plenty of pilots who would drive drunk wouldn't even consider getting
near an airplane in that condition

So,

Wrong again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> I had 2 Dui's (one when I was 21 and one when I was 22) and I'm now
>> almost 28. I was working on a degree in communications and I'm at
>> about the junior level, but my old dream of flying just came back to
>> me all of the sudden and I thought I would make absolutely sure if
>> those DUI's will be more than just an obstacle for me.
>
> The important question is: Do you still drink?
>

What's it to you fjukkwit

You don't fly and you never will



Bertie

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Bertie the Bunyip > said:
>Plenty of pilots who would drive drunk wouldn't even consider getting
>near an airplane in that condition

Anybody who would drive drunk should be restricted to electric wheelchairs
or riding lawnmowers.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"The ideals we uphold during a crisis define who we are." - Bruce Scheier
http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0109.html

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

(Paul Tomblin) wrote in
:

> In a previous article, Bertie the Bunyip > said:
>>Plenty of pilots who would drive drunk wouldn't even consider getting
>>near an airplane in that condition
>
> Anybody who would drive drunk should be restricted to electric
> wheelchairs or riding lawnmowers.
>
>

Lots are! Doesn't mean that Anthony has even the slightest idea what he's
talking about.

Bertie

[Luke Skywalker]

On Jul 9, 8:47 pm, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
> In a previous article, Bertie the Bunyip > said:
>
> >Plenty of pilots who would drive drunk wouldn't even consider getting
> >near an airplane in that condition
>
> Anybody who would drive drunk should be restricted to electric wheelchairs
> or riding lawnmowers.
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin /
> "The ideals we uphold during a crisis define who we are." - Bruce Scheierhttp://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0109.html

A few years ago I was at the Wally World and there was a woman driving
one of the motorized buggys who was so drunk that walmart security
"helped" her to stop driving and called her relatives to come get
her. She had obviously driven there in that condition. I think what
got their attention was her running into the Potatoe (grin) chips
display.

Robert

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, Bertie the Bunyip > said:
>> Plenty of pilots who would drive drunk wouldn't even consider getting
>> near an airplane in that condition
>
> Anybody who would drive drunk should be restricted to electric wheelchairs
> or riding lawnmowers.

<http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=51855>

[Montblack]

("RST Engineering" wrote)
> Two, some aviation jobs will check you back to the day you arrived slimy
> wet in the hospital.


(NAC) Necessary Aviation Content
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eu_WArbqUsY&mode=related&search=
The Stork


Paul-Mont
http://www.storkaerospace.com/fokker/page.html?id=6022
Stork Aerospace...

[Mxsmanic]

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

> Plenty of pilots who would drive drunk wouldn't even consider getting
> near an airplane in that condition

Driving drunk is a demonstration of extraordinarily poor judgement--poor
enough to justify keeping the driver on the ground indefinitely.

> Wrong again and again and again and again and again and again and again
> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again

There are other demonstrations of poor judgement as well.

[Mxsmanic]

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

> Lots are! Doesn't mean that Anthony has even the slightest idea what he's
> talking about.

Your statements contradict each other. Either a pilot who drives drunk should
be kept on the ground, or he shouldn't. Which is it?

[Mxsmanic]

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

> How would you know?
>
> You don't fly

One need not fly to know the dangers of substance abuse.

[Viperdoc[_4_]]

>
> Driving drunk is a demonstration of extraordinarily poor judgement--poor
> enough to justify keeping the driver on the ground indefinitely.

Isn't a driver normally on the ground? Are you now an expert on substance
abuse, just like piloting, aviation medicine, and breast feeding?

Go get a reality check.

[Mxsmanic]

Viperdoc writes:

> Isn't a driver normally on the ground?

Yes, but a reckless personality does not magically change in the cockpit.

> Are you now an expert on substance abuse, just like piloting,
> aviation medicine, and breast feeding?

Not an expert, simply well informed. I suppose that could seem like expertise
to those who are poorly informed.

[Tina]

Situational behaviour had been well characterized in the professional
literature. You may not be as well informed as you think.


On Jul 11, 8:45 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Viperdoc writes:
> > Isn't a driver normally on the ground?
>
> Yes, but a reckless personality does not magically change in the cockpit.
>
> > Are you now an expert on substance abuse, just like piloting,
> > aviation medicine, and breast feeding?
>
> Not an expert, simply well informed. I suppose that could seem like expertise
> to those who are poorly informed.

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Viperdoc writes:

> > Isn't a driver normally on the ground?

> Yes, but a reckless personality does not magically change in the cockpit.

> > Are you now an expert on substance abuse, just like piloting,
> > aviation medicine, and breast feeding?

> Not an expert, simply well informed. I suppose that could seem like expertise
> to those who are poorly informed.

You seem to be a self-centered, arrogant, socially-impaired ass who is
terrified by all aspects of the real world to me.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[El Maximo]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...

> Not an expert, simply well informed.

An intelligent person would not think so.

[Tina]

Jim, you wrote, w/r/t MX.
>
> You seem to be a self-centered, arrogant, socially-impaired ass who is
> terrified by all aspects of the real world to me.
>
> --
> Jim Pennino
>

You really should leave those kinds of judgements to professionals.

He seems like a to be a self-centered, arrogant, socially-impaired
ass who is
terrified by all aspects of the real world to me.


Tina (professional shrink)
--

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> You seem to be a self-centered, arrogant, socially-impaired ass who is
> terrified by all aspects of the real world to me.

How I seem to you might not have any congruence with reality.

[Mxsmanic]

El Maximo writes:

> An intelligent person would not think so.

Ask one, and see what he says.

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:

> > You seem to be a self-centered, arrogant, socially-impaired ass who is
> > terrified by all aspects of the real world to me.

> How I seem to you might not have any congruence with reality.

And it may be dead on.

How many other people think Mx is a self-centered, arrogant,
socially-impaired ass who is terrified by all aspects of the real world?

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Tina wrote:
> Jim, you wrote, w/r/t MX.
>>
>> You seem to be a self-centered, arrogant, socially-impaired ass who
>> is terrified by all aspects of the real world to me.
>>
>> --
>> Jim Pennino
>>
>
> You really should leave those kinds of judgements to professionals.
>
> He seems like a to be a self-centered, arrogant, socially-impaired
> ass who is
> terrified by all aspects of the real world to me.
>
>
> Tina (professional shrink)


ROFL... I like Tina.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>> He seems like a to be a self-centered, arrogant, socially-impaired
>> ass who is
>> terrified by all aspects of the real world to me.
>>
>>
>> Tina (professional shrink)
>
>
> ROFL... I like Tina.


Hmmmm.... what did you mean by that?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>>> He seems like a to be a self-centered, arrogant, socially-impaired
>>> ass who is
>>> terrified by all aspects of the real world to me.
>>>
>>>
>>> Tina (professional shrink)
>>
>>
>> ROFL... I like Tina.
>
>
> Hmmmm.... what did you mean by that?
>
>
>
> Mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

No the proper comment would have been "Hmmm... how does that make you feel?

[Margy Natalie]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> Tina wrote:
>
>>Jim, you wrote, w/r/t MX.
>>
>>>You seem to be a self-centered, arrogant, socially-impaired ass who
>>>is terrified by all aspects of the real world to me.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Jim Pennino
>>>
>>
>>You really should leave those kinds of judgements to professionals.
>>
>>He seems like a to be a self-centered, arrogant, socially-impaired
>>ass who is
>>terrified by all aspects of the real world to me.
>>
>>
>>Tina (professional shrink)
>
>
>
> ROFL... I like Tina.
>
>
I agree and I also agree with the professional :-)

Margy

[CinciGreg]

The President and Vice President have at least three known proven DUI
convictions on their record, and probably at least a few more that
were scrubbed from the records.

They have nukes and bioweapons, and command armies of invading
soldiers while still drinking, and have left many tens of thousands
dead in their drunken wake; the Vice President still occasionally gets
drunk and hurts someone, like the time he was so drunk that he show
his friend in the face.

I don't see how a few DUIs could possibly affect your getting licensed
to fly. There simply are no standards at all anymore.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>
>> Plenty of pilots who would drive drunk wouldn't even consider getting
>> near an airplane in that condition
>
> Driving drunk is a demonstration of extraordinarily poor judgement--
poor
> enough to justify keeping the driver on the ground indefinitely.
>
>> Wrong again and again and again and again and again and again and
again
>> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
>> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
>> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
>> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
>> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
>> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
>> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
>> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
>> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
>> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
>> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
>> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
>> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
>> and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
>
> There are other demonstrations of poor judgement as well.

Wha like repeatedly posting worng info?

Bertie
>

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Viperdoc writes:
>
>> Isn't a driver normally on the ground?
>
> Yes, but a reckless personality does not magically change in the
> cockpit.
>
>> Are you now an expert on substance abuse, just like piloting,
>> aviation medicine, and breast feeding?
>
> Not an expert, simply well informed.


No, you aren't. You're not even poorly informed.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> El Maximo writes:
>
>> An intelligent person would not think so.
>
> Ask one, and see what he says.
>

I don't think so.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>
>> Lots are! Doesn't mean that Anthony has even the slightest idea what
>> he's talking about.
>
> Your statements contradict each other.


No they don't fjukktyard


Either a pilot who drives
> drunk should be kept on the ground, or he shouldn't. Which is it?
>
Drivers drive on the ground, fjukktard.


My statement is clear to anyone who flies....

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>
>> How would you know?
>>
>> You don't fly
>
> One need not fly to know the dangers of substance abuse.
>

God you're a fjukkwit.


Bertie