The Garmin 496...a teenager's review

[Jay Honeck]

Now that my son is taking flight lessons, I'm letting him fly in
(Read: Mary is relinquishing) the front seat more often. This plants
him squarely in front of our panel-docked Garmin 496, the latest-and-
greatest portable GPS from Garmin.

We've flown behind this unit since OSH '06, and he has heard us
discussing its quirks and limitations, but he's never had any first-
hand experience programming it. Remember, the boy is 16 years old,
and has almost literally grown up with a Playstation/X-Box/PC game
controller in his hands. His thumbs are highly over-developed, from
10 million hours of video-game playing, and he is turning into an
absolute whiz with computers.

In short, he is an expert on all things that use graphics.

After working the 496 for a few flights, with all of its bizarre
hiccups (I.E.: The screen completely disappears when you slew the
cursor across the screen) and horrible graphics (displayed on a
postage-stamp-sized screen), his priceless comment was:

"If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
have sold about five of them..."

And you know what? He's absolutely right. We pilots were so
desperate for in-cockpit weather that we willingly paid $3000 (!) for
a $250 dollar unit that performs worse than a video game.

BTW: If you've never played with an X-Box, or a Sony Playstation game
platform, this post won't make any sense to you -- which is precisely
what Garmin was counting on. Go out and borrow your kids (or grand-
kids) game unit for a couple of hours, and see what REAL graphics
capability looks like. (And if you want to see how hand-held
graphical displays *should* perform, borrow their PSP handheld
Playstation unit.)

I sure hope Garmin steps up to the plate, performance-wise, with their
(much anticipated) new product at OSH...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Logajan]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
> have sold about five of them..."

But they have very few engineering requirements in common:

One has to run on batteries as long as possible (i.e. low power draw),
include radio receivers, be as small as reasonably possible, and must come
with its own display.

The other can draw as much power as it needs, has no physical size
constraints on human interfaces, and requires an external display that must
be supplied by the user.

The closest comparable consumer products with equivalent engineering
requirements that comes to my mind is the just-released iPhone and
notebook/tablet computers.

[Peter R.]

On 7/6/2007 2:19:49 PM, Jay Honeck wrote:

> "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
> have sold about five of them..."

It appears MS may have. From C|Net's news:

"Microsoft to extend Xbox 360 warranty, take $1 billion hit"
http://tinyurl.com/2x98ov

--
Peter

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> After working the 496 for a few flights, with all of its bizarre
> hiccups (I.E.: The screen completely disappears when you slew the
> cursor across the screen) and horrible graphics (displayed on a
> postage-stamp-sized screen), his priceless comment was:
>
> "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
> have sold about five of them..."

And if Garmin was as reliable as Microsoft, the majority of the pilot
population would be dead right now! :~}

>
> And you know what? He's absolutely right. We pilots were so
> desperate for in-cockpit weather that we willingly paid $3000 (!) for
> a $250 dollar unit that performs worse than a video game.

Well, Jay, why don't you lug a X-Box and a 27" TV around with you in the
cockpit? :~)

{titter}

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

> "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
> have sold about five of them..."
>

Apples to watermelons.


--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Gary[_2_]]

On Jul 6, 2:49 pm, "Matt Barrow" > wrote:
> And if Garmin was as reliable as Microsoft, the majority of the pilot
> population would be dead right now! :~}

:-) Hysterical!!! (and so true...)

[Road Dog]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
> have sold about five of them..."

Actually, I've tried GPS and EFB applications on one
of MS' platforms - the Samsung Q1 - which has a whole
lot more computing power than the 496, and it's a dog.

> I sure hope Garmin steps up to the plate, performance-wise, with their
> (much anticipated) new product at OSH...

Didn't they with the 496 ? Isn't that the only difference
from the 396 ? (plus maybe traffic)

[Hilton]

Road Dog wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>
>> "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
>> have sold about five of them..."
>
> Actually, I've tried GPS and EFB applications on one
> of MS' platforms - the Samsung Q1 - which has a whole
> lot more computing power than the 496, and it's a dog.

Or more correctly put, the software that I used was a dog. I hear folks
blaming the hardware and the .NET framework continually when it really is a
application software problem. With care, attention, and good design, we
have our product running just great on a Smartphone, using .NET, on a 200MHz
CPU using an SD card transfering 1-bit at a time and we are able to access
any approach in the US in about one second. Anyway, I just wanted to ensure
that the blame was correctly directed.

Hilton

[Hilton]

Jay,

That's not really a review, it's a comment. Please get you son to describe
what he would change (and why) etc etc and either post it here or email it
to me (hilton[at]hiltonsoftware[dot]com). We're always looking at ways of
improving WingX's usability.

Thanks,

Hilton
P.S.: Yeah, I know, any semi-smart spamming system should be able to figure
out my email address. :)

[buttman]

On Jul 6, 11:19 am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Now that my son is taking flight lessons, I'm letting him fly in
> (Read: Mary is relinquishing) the front seat more often. This plants
> him squarely in front of our panel-docked Garmin 496, the latest-and-
> greatest portable GPS from Garmin.
>
> We've flown behind this unit since OSH '06, and he has heard us
> discussing its quirks and limitations, but he's never had any first-
> hand experience programming it. Remember, the boy is 16 years old,
> and has almost literally grown up with a Playstation/X-Box/PC game
> controller in his hands. His thumbs are highly over-developed, from
> 10 million hours of video-game playing, and he is turning into an
> absolute whiz with computers.
>
> In short, he is an expert on all things that use graphics.
>
> After working the 496 for a few flights, with all of its bizarre
> hiccups (I.E.: The screen completely disappears when you slew the
> cursor across the screen) and horrible graphics (displayed on a
> postage-stamp-sized screen), his priceless comment was:
>
> "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
> have sold about five of them..."
>
> And you know what? He's absolutely right. We pilots were so
> desperate for in-cockpit weather that we willingly paid $3000 (!) for
> a $250 dollar unit that performs worse than a video game.
>
> BTW: If you've never played with an X-Box, or a Sony Playstation game
> platform, this post won't make any sense to you -- which is precisely
> what Garmin was counting on. Go out and borrow your kids (or grand-
> kids) game unit for a couple of hours, and see what REAL graphics
> capability looks like. (And if you want to see how hand-held
> graphical displays *should* perform, borrow their PSP handheld
> Playstation unit.)
>
> I sure hope Garmin steps up to the plate, performance-wise, with their
> (much anticipated) new product at OSH...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

I agree. When it comes to UI design, aviation products just do not
stack up. It's not just GPS units either; I've bought flight sim
addons that had the most idiotic way of installing. I've seen many
PAYWARE logbook/weather/planning applications that seemed like they
were written for Windows 3.1

I have about 500 hours in GNS430 planes, and one thing that ****es me
off, is the slowness of it. I press a button, and theres a slight
delay before the unit accepts the input. It just makes it feel slow
and sluggish. I had a graphing calculator in college that costs 1/10
the price, was less powerful, and still wasn't nearly as slow.

[john smith]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
> have sold about five of them..."

You mean like this....

http://editorials.teamxbox.com/xbox/1651/The-Red-Ring-of-Death/p1/

[NW_Pilot]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Now that my son is taking flight lessons, I'm letting him fly in
> (Read: Mary is relinquishing) the front seat more often. This plants
> him squarely in front of our panel-docked Garmin 496, the latest-and-
> greatest portable GPS from Garmin.
>
> We've flown behind this unit since OSH '06, and he has heard us
> discussing its quirks and limitations, but he's never had any first-
> hand experience programming it. Remember, the boy is 16 years old,
> and has almost literally grown up with a Playstation/X-Box/PC game
> controller in his hands. His thumbs are highly over-developed, from
> 10 million hours of video-game playing, and he is turning into an
> absolute whiz with computers.
>
> In short, he is an expert on all things that use graphics.
>
> After working the 496 for a few flights, with all of its bizarre
> hiccups (I.E.: The screen completely disappears when you slew the
> cursor across the screen) and horrible graphics (displayed on a
> postage-stamp-sized screen), his priceless comment was:
>
> "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
> have sold about five of them..."
>
> And you know what? He's absolutely right. We pilots were so
> desperate for in-cockpit weather that we willingly paid $3000 (!) for
> a $250 dollar unit that performs worse than a video game.
>
> BTW: If you've never played with an X-Box, or a Sony Playstation game
> platform, this post won't make any sense to you -- which is precisely
> what Garmin was counting on. Go out and borrow your kids (or grand-
> kids) game unit for a couple of hours, and see what REAL graphics
> capability looks like. (And if you want to see how hand-held
> graphical displays *should* perform, borrow their PSP handheld
> Playstation unit.)
>
> I sure hope Garmin steps up to the plate, performance-wise, with their
> (much anticipated) new product at OSH...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Hummmm.... I think I said something like this in the 596 thread that a
Korean knock off would be faster and better quality hahahahaha... Garmin is
banking on a Name not quality. Some say they are the leader in GPS
technology they may be but they will fail if they keep using poor quality
parts and 5+ year old technology in their displays. I can hand solder SMT
devices better then what they do on the inside of their devices.

The CPU speed in my cell phone is faster then that of the G1000 no telling
what they are using in the 496. So anyone have about $90K they want to toss
to the Korea/HongKong to reverse engineer the 496 and then make it better
and knock them off for only a few hundred dollars? Hell I could crack/dump
their their os in a few days and would give me an excuse to get my SMT
rework / device programming equipment out of the attic.

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"NW_Pilot" wrote:

>
> The CPU speed in my cell phone is faster then that of the G1000 no telling
> what they are using in the 496. So anyone have about $90K they want to toss
> to the Korea/HongKong to reverse engineer the 496 and then make it better
> and knock them off for only a few hundred dollars? Hell I could crack/dump
> their their os in a few days and would give me an excuse to get my SMT
> rework / device programming equipment out of the attic.


It's amazing that you're the only one to think of this. Congratulations!

I expect to see your $300 Garmin beater at OSH next year!

--
Dan

"Don't make me nervous when I'm carryin' a baseball bat."
- Big Joe Turner

[Travis Marlatte]

"Hilton" > wrote in message
. net...
> Road Dog wrote:
>> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>
>>> "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
>>> have sold about five of them..."
>>
>> Actually, I've tried GPS and EFB applications on one
>> of MS' platforms - the Samsung Q1 - which has a whole
>> lot more computing power than the 496, and it's a dog.
>
> Or more correctly put, the software that I used was a dog. I hear folks
> blaming the hardware and the .NET framework continually when it really is
> a application software problem. With care, attention, and good design, we
> have our product running just great on a Smartphone, using .NET, on a
> 200MHz CPU using an SD card transfering 1-bit at a time and we are able to
> access any approach in the US in about one second. Anyway, I just wanted
> to ensure that the blame was correctly directed.
>
> Hilton
>
>

Agreed. .NET is not to blame but it is an enabler. Like JAVA and other
quick-to-build platforms. One can create very good applications that are
reliable, quick user response, etc. But, the race to market is, apparently,
overwhelmingly tempting. The result is bulky applications that are rid with
bugs.

Comparing the Garmin 496 to a household video game is not fair. As someone
posted - apples to watermelons. The problem with comparing it to something
like the PSP is that there is a huge difference in market. Garmin could have
created a fantastic device that was priced beyond reason. Every development
effort must find the balance between features, response time, and quality.

That's what the next generation is for.
--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .
> Jay Honeck > wrote:
> The closest comparable consumer products with equivalent engineering
> requirements that comes to my mind is the just-released iPhone

Which has also received a bagging in all the reviews I've heard, due to
outdated operating systems and the like.
Crash Lander
--
http://straightandlevel1973.spaces.live.com/
I'm not always right,
But I'm never wrong!

[john hawkins]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Now that my son is taking flight lessons, I'm letting him fly in
> (Read: Mary is relinquishing) the front seat more often. This plants
> him squarely in front of our panel-docked Garmin 496, the latest-and-
> greatest portable GPS from Garmin.

[ snip]

His comments are on the money.

Of course the problems are:
certification and development cost.
Real Estate space ( how big/bulky do you want you hand held) (How much panel
space are you wanting to give up)
I'd like to see a way to display the output on a larger yoke mounted
display.
The user interface is terrible on all GPS units I've seen or read about.
And ,of course, are the units sellin? They are then why change a good thing?

[Road Dog]

Hilton wrote:
>
> Or more correctly put, the software that I used was a dog. I hear folks
> blaming the hardware and the .NET framework continually when it really is a
> application software problem. With care, attention, and good design, we
> have our product running just great on a Smartphone, using .NET, on a 200MHz
> CPU using an SD card transfering 1-bit at a time and we are able to access
> any approach in the US in about one second. Anyway, I just wanted to ensure
> that the blame was correctly directed.

I placed the blame exactly where I meant it: Windows XP. The POS
takes nearly 2 minutes just to start up and leaves about 1MB for
applications to swap pages in and out of. Not very helpful when
you're trying to look at, scroll and zoom large maps.

[Jay Honeck]

> One has to run on batteries as long as possible (i.e. low power draw),
> include radio receivers, be as small as reasonably possible, and must come
> with its own display.

That's why I mentioned the Sony PSP. Google it -- it's basically a
496-sized game platform.

Put a moving map GPS on THAT screen, and we'll all have something to
crow about. Add weather, and Garmin will fade to black.

Won't happen, of course. But hey, I can dream.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
> > have sold about five of them..."
>
> Apples to watermelons.


Okay, I'll give you the X-Box vs Garmin comparison is wrong. Which is
why I mentioned the Sony PSP handheld.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> It's amazing that you're the only one to think of this. Congratulations!

Look around at the demographic of pilots nowadays. I'm 48, and I'm
still considered the "Young Guy" at the airport -- which is the reason
so few pilots apparently grasp how truly clunky the 496 is to use.
Garmin is not dealing with a generation that has grown up with a mouse
in our hands, and most pilots have nothing to compare the 496 against.

My son does. And his observations were right on the money.

And, quite frankly, Garmin is still the only "all-in-one-box" weather
option. As long as Lowrance and AvMap continue to sit on their hands
regarding weather, Garmin has little incentive to improve.

Trouble is, weather is so important that many of us (me included) have
been willing to put up with almost ANY performance in order to get it
in the panel. XM weather has changed flying so dramatically for us
that I'd be willing to use a stone tablet in order to get it whilst
airborne. But it really took a 16-year-old's perspective to make it
clear exactly how slow the unit really is.

Sadly, now that my unit is panel docked, I'm pretty much married to
the display size, so I hope Garmin leaves that unchanged. (Even
though I would LOVE a bigger screen.) And I don't find the user
interface to be bad at all -- in fact, I love it. They got that
right, IMHO.

But I truly hope they eventually do something about the screen refresh
rate, cuz all of us -- Mary, me, and now Joe -- want to punch the
panel while we're waiting for that stupid screen to refresh after
slewing the cursor to the next METAR reporting station...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Andrew Gideon]

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 06:43:43 -0700, Jay Honeck wrote:

> But I truly hope they eventually do something about the screen refresh
> rate, cuz all of us -- Mary, me, and now Joe -- want to punch the panel
> while we're waiting for that stupid screen to refresh after slewing the
> cursor to the next METAR reporting station... --

Refresh rate relates directly to power. Ideally, the box would offer
options (ie. rapid refresh, more power consumption vs. slow refresh,
longer battery life). That may be a "didn't think of it", I suppose, but
I'd be surprised since this is standard in laptops.

But I believe that inertia weighs heavily at Garmin. I asked once whether
they'd ever have the IFR-friendly flight plan entry of the 480 on the
430/530 line. I was told that they'd probably not do this as it was
considered "more difficult".

Another place where having an option (ie. waypoint entry or airway entry)
would be a Good Thing.

Still, I'm suspicious that none of the other vendors have leaped past
Garmin. That suggests that there's a part of this equation I'm missing.
Perhaps the development costs to "get it completely right" would render
the unit too expensive given the small audience?

I presume that all those little game-box things sell well more than
aviation GPS units.

- Andrew

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>> > "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
>> > have sold about five of them..."
>>
>> Apples to watermelons.
>
>
> Okay, I'll give you the X-Box vs Garmin comparison is wrong. Which is
> why I mentioned the Sony PSP handheld.

Sony operates in the fantasy world; Garmin has to operate in the real world.

How many units does Sony sell? How many does Garmin?

How many cars does Toyota sell? How many aircraft does Cirrus?

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> It's amazing that you're the only one to think of this. Congratulations!
>
> Look around at the demographic of pilots nowadays. I'm 48, and I'm
> still considered the "Young Guy" at the airport -- which is the reason
> so few pilots apparently grasp how truly clunky the 496 is to use.
> Garmin is not dealing with a generation that has grown up with a mouse
> in our hands, and most pilots have nothing to compare the 496 against.
>
> My son does. And his observations were right on the money.

Jay,

Stick to running hotels. As a technologist, you're assessment is
embarrassing.

If Sony or MS could translate their game systems to GPS naive, they already
would have done so.

You're starting to sound like those naive folks who think making cars and
making aircraft are so much the same thing.

[Kyle Boatright]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>> It's amazing that you're the only one to think of this.
>>> Congratulations!
>>
>> Look around at the demographic of pilots nowadays. I'm 48, and I'm
>> still considered the "Young Guy" at the airport -- which is the reason
>> so few pilots apparently grasp how truly clunky the 496 is to use.
>> Garmin is not dealing with a generation that has grown up with a mouse
>> in our hands, and most pilots have nothing to compare the 496 against.
>>
>> My son does. And his observations were right on the money.
>
> Jay,
>
> Stick to running hotels. As a technologist, you're assessment is
> embarrassing.
>

As someone who was presumably taught the English language at an early age..
"you're"... (??)

Glass houses and all that.

KB

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Matt Barrow" wrote >

> Stick to running hotels. As a technologist, you're assessment is
> embarrassing.

Matt, what the hell is wrong with you lately.

Did someone **** in your Wheaties? Something wrong with your lovelife?

For the past few weeks you have been more obnoxious than usual.

Think about it, and think about toning it down. Everyone will soon be
avoiding you, if you keep it up.
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

> > Stick to running hotels. As a technologist, you're assessment is
> > embarrassing.
>
> Matt, what the hell is wrong with you lately.
>
> Did someone **** in your Wheaties? Something wrong with your lovelife?
>
> For the past few weeks you have been more obnoxious than usual.

Heck, I haven't noticed any difference...

;-)

Seriously, I *know* that the 496 and PSP are not the same thing, and I
*know* that Sony sells 80 gazillion game platforms for every one of
Garmin's GPS units.

My point in posting is simply to highlight how truly crappy these
units are, and how expensive they are, comparatively speaking. For
those of you who think otherwise, get thee to your kids room, and see
what real "high tech" looks like.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Refresh rate relates directly to power. Ideally, the box would offer
> options (ie. rapid refresh, more power consumption vs. slow refresh,
> longer battery life). That may be a "didn't think of it", I suppose, but
> I'd be surprised since this is standard in laptops.

What's especially sad is that every, single one of the "way cool"
aviation features of the 496 are impacted by this problem. Here's how
it goes:

1. You're cruising along on a 100 mile x-country flight. This is
typical for us.

2. You've got the screen zoomed into the 30 mile range, so that you
can see any details at all (like towers) on the little screen.

3. You want to check the runways at your destination airport, which is
NOT displayed. (Remember, you're zoomed in so that you can see stuff.)
The 496 has the runways stored in its database -- all you have to do
is put your cursor on the desired airport and hit "enter" to see them
all.

4. In order to click on the desired airport, you must "slew" the
cursor off the edge of the screen in order to find it. This means
hold the arrow button down, slew to the edge of the screen -- wait
three seconds while the screen disappears and reappears -- and
continue.

The REALLY bad thing is that the cursor doesn't stop moving when the
screen disappears, so that in those three seconds you can easily WAY
over-shoot your target airport. (I've even ended up in a different
state during the time it's blank.)

5. Repeat ad nauseum.

This process must be performed in order to see ANY of the good stuff,
including accessing the AOPA restaurant/hotel guide, radio
frequencies, field elevation, airport diagrams, METAR and TAF weather
-- you name it, you've got to put your cursor on the airport and push
"enter" to activate it -- which means slewing.

My son just laughed when he first used it...until I told him it cost
$3,000.00.

Then he just laughed at *me*... (Until he figured out that it had come
from his future inheritance...)

;-)

> Still, I'm suspicious that none of the other vendors have leaped past
> Garmin. That suggests that there's a part of this equation I'm missing.
> Perhaps the development costs to "get it completely right" would render
> the unit too expensive given the small audience?

Yep, me too. Lowrance -- the world leader in nautical GPS -- has been
"promising" weather for over two years -- and STILL nothing. It must
be a lot harder than we think it is...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Kyle Boatright]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Refresh rate relates directly to power. Ideally, the box would offer
>> options (ie. rapid refresh, more power consumption vs. slow refresh,
>> longer battery life). That may be a "didn't think of it", I suppose, but
>> I'd be surprised since this is standard in laptops.
>
> What's especially sad is that every, single one of the "way cool"
> aviation features of the 496 are impacted by this problem. Here's how
> it goes:
>
> 1. You're cruising along on a 100 mile x-country flight. This is
> typical for us.
>
> 2. You've got the screen zoomed into the 30 mile range, so that you
> can see any details at all (like towers) on the little screen.
>
> 3. You want to check the runways at your destination airport, which is
> NOT displayed. (Remember, you're zoomed in so that you can see stuff.)
> The 496 has the runways stored in its database -- all you have to do
> is put your cursor on the desired airport and hit "enter" to see them
> all.
>
> 4. In order to click on the desired airport, you must "slew" the
> cursor off the edge of the screen in order to find it. This means
> hold the arrow button down, slew to the edge of the screen -- wait
> three seconds while the screen disappears and reappears -- and
> continue.
>
> The REALLY bad thing is that the cursor doesn't stop moving when the
> screen disappears, so that in those three seconds you can easily WAY
> over-shoot your target airport. (I've even ended up in a different
> state during the time it's blank.)
>
> 5. Repeat ad nauseum.
>
> This process must be performed in order to see ANY of the good stuff,
> including accessing the AOPA restaurant/hotel guide, radio
> frequencies, field elevation, airport diagrams, METAR and TAF weather
> -- you name it, you've got to put your cursor on the airport and push
> "enter" to activate it -- which means slewing.
>
> My son just laughed when he first used it...until I told him it cost
> $3,000.00.
>
> Then he just laughed at *me*... (Until he figured out that it had come
> from his future inheritance...)
>
> ;-)
>
>> Still, I'm suspicious that none of the other vendors have leaped past
>> Garmin. That suggests that there's a part of this equation I'm missing.
>> Perhaps the development costs to "get it completely right" would render
>> the unit too expensive given the small audience?
>
> Yep, me too. Lowrance -- the world leader in nautical GPS -- has been
> "promising" weather for over two years -- and STILL nothing. It must
> be a lot harder than we think it is...

It is a priority thing with Lowrance. They were purchased by a company that
is completely marine based. The new parent company had Lowrance pull
resources from developing XM for aviation so those resources could fill in
some percieved holes in the marine product line.

So, now they have a hole in their aviation product line. I am told that
Lowrance will correct this omission, the only question is when? This year
at Osh or next year at SnF?


> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[NW_Pilot]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NW_Pilot" wrote:
>
>>
>> The CPU speed in my cell phone is faster then that of the G1000 no
>> telling what they are using in the 496. So anyone have about $90K they
>> want to toss to the Korea/HongKong to reverse engineer the 496 and then
>> make it better and knock them off for only a few hundred dollars? Hell I
>> could crack/dump their their os in a few days and would give me an excuse
>> to get my SMT rework / device programming equipment out of the attic.
>
>
> It's amazing that you're the only one to think of this. Congratulations!
>
> I expect to see your $300 Garmin beater at OSH next year!
>
> --
> Dan
>
> "Don't make me nervous when I'm carryin' a baseball bat."
> - Big Joe Turner
>

I have sent out many 6 and 8 layer boards to be ripped apart and copied
layer by layer, trace by trace, solder pad by solder pad, all it take is
money and anything can be copied. If it has a published schematic you can
program/scan it in to Altium (protel), Eagle (cadsoft.de), or many other cad
programs. All to need to do is input in the Schematic arrange the board lay
out make some Gerber files upload to a board house. I believe
pcbexpress.com, ezpcb.com, PCBnet.com are still around they do up to 6
layers quick turn prototypes no questions asked. Once you get the prototype
the way you want on to injection molding and manfacture.

I have been out of the industory for few years now and many companys in the
U.S. have gone out of biz (Want a Good American Job Move To China)

A place to have a schematic drawn up of simple devices this guy is an old
timeer now and may be a little slow but only about $20.00 an hour. I sent
these guys lots of Cable TV equipment back in the day when I did not have
the time to do it myself.
http://www.bomarc.org/home.php

Some others:
http://www.delectrol.com/reverse_engineering.htm

http://www.mitsi.com/PCB/reverse_engineering.htm

http://www.armisteadtechnologies.com/reverse-engineering.shtml

http://www.isensortech.com/PCBreverse.htm

List of Some Production House's, The First one listed Circuitone is my #1
recommended I have done business with them in the past many times. They can
do modern composite laminating have much better than FR4 Fiberglass "don't
crack as easy" and they have reasonable pricing only about a dime more per
sq-in. They source the best parts possible and have very good test
facilities for quality control.

Circuitone Ltd
Room 702 Westley Square
48 Hoi Yuen Road
Kwun Tong
Kowloon
Hong Kong SAR
Tel: (852 ) 23500360
Fax: (852 ) 22422544
-------------------------------------------
Tahoe Industries Ltd
2F No. 388-1
Jen Ai Road Section 4
Ta An District
Taipei
Taiwan 106
Tel: (886 2) 27044235 (886 2) 27044236
Fax: (886 2) 27049044
-------------------------------------------
UNI Precision Industrial Ltd
Unit 604, Harbour Center Tower II
8 Hok Cheung Street
Hunghom, Kowloon
Hong Kong SAR
Tel: (852 ) 23565800 (852 ) 23565817
Fax: (852 ) 23649336
-------------------------------------------
Ehua Co. Ltd
9F, No. 776
Chung Cheng Road
Chung Ho City
Taipei
Taiwan 235
Tel: (886 2) 82282042
Fax: (886 2) 82282043
-------------------------------------------
Topscom Precision Industry Co Limited
Shenzhen Office: 2nd Building East
Sege Science & Technology Park
Futian District
Shenzhen
Guangdong
China 518030
Tel: (86 755) 8376 8879 Ext : 8808 (86 755) 8376 8867 Ext : 8814
Fax: (86 755) 8376 8890

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"NW_Pilot" wrote:

> I have sent out many 6 and 8 layer boards to be ripped apart and copied
> layer by layer, trace by trace, solder pad by solder pad, all it take is
> money and anything can be copied.

So why hasn't anyone come out wth a half-price 496 knock-off?

Should be easy, according to you, and I guarantee you there's a big market.

--
Dan

"The future has actually been here for a while, it's just not readily
available to everyone."
- some guy at MIT

[NW_Pilot]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 06:43:43 -0700, Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Refresh rate relates directly to power. Ideally, the box would offer
> options (ie. rapid refresh, more power consumption vs. slow refresh,
> longer battery life). That may be a "didn't think of it", I suppose, but
> I'd be surprised since this is standard in laptops.
>
> But I believe that inertia weighs heavily at Garmin. I asked once whether
> they'd ever have the IFR-friendly flight plan entry of the 480 on the
> 430/530 line. I was told that they'd probably not do this as it was
> considered "more difficult".
>
> Another place where having an option (ie. waypoint entry or airway entry)
> would be a Good Thing.
>
> Still, I'm suspicious that none of the other vendors have leaped past
> Garmin. That suggests that there's a part of this equation I'm missing.
> Perhaps the development costs to "get it completely right" would render
> the unit too expensive given the small audience?
>
> I presume that all those little game-box things sell well more than
> aviation GPS units.
>
> - Andrew
>
>

Ahhh!!!! Whatever!!! The modern displays draw a fraction of the power they
did just 3 years ago and the resolution is 2 to 3 time better. Garmin is
using older cheaper displays. If they spent an extra $50-$100 per unit on
better displays of the same size power drain would be less and resolution
would be better. Don't get me started on cpu speed and flash storage very,
very, minimal costs in these units. As for the XM weather it is just a
software program on the unit and the data is available.

http://www.seattleavionics.com has XM weather requires a receiver but it
works.

http://www.xmradio.com/weather/hardware_solutions_av.xmc

I am done for the day laters.

[NW_Pilot]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NW_Pilot" wrote:
>
>> I have sent out many 6 and 8 layer boards to be ripped apart and copied
>> layer by layer, trace by trace, solder pad by solder pad, all it take is
>> money and anything can be copied.
>
> So why hasn't anyone come out wth a half-price 496 knock-off?
>
> Should be easy, according to you, and I guarantee you there's a big
> market.
>
> --
> Dan
>
> "The future has actually been here for a while, it's just not readily
> available to everyone."
> - some guy at MIT
>
>

Yea, there is a big market I estimate about $90K could produce a really
really good knock off. Then about 1-2 million to get in to mass production.
If I had the capital I would be visiting Hong Kong and gettin it started.
South Korea has some benefits also but workmanship is not as good.

-Only way we can travel to another planet that can support life is to
control time, but if we can control time we don't need to go anyplace!

[Andrew Gideon]

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 14:43:26 -0700, NW_Pilot wrote:

> Ahhh!!!! Whatever!!! The modern displays draw a fraction of the power they
> did just 3 years ago and the resolution is 2 to 3 time better.

Are you attempting to disagree with me? I didn't write about "displays"
but "refresh rates". These are orthogonal issues.

> Garmin is
> using older cheaper displays.

Proof?

> If they spent an extra $50-$100 per unit on better displays of the same
> size power drain would be less and resolution would be better. Don't get
> me started on cpu speed and flash storage very, very, minimal costs in
> these units. As for the XM weather it is just a software program on the
> unit and the data is available.

Ah, you sound like the typical IT customer: "it's just software; get
coding. Be done next week."

I wonder why it's so easy to believe that software is so easy to build.
Its massless or invisible nature?

> http://www.seattleavionics.com has XM weather requires a receiver but it
> works.
>
> http://www.xmradio.com/weather/hardware_solutions_av.xmc

Yet Garmin stands alone. Why?

In fact, though, this isn't quite true. I myself am *still* stuck at
"Garmin 496 vs. Cheetah 190". So there *is* competition.

Anyone have any insights on the 190, esp. how it compares to the 496? On
balance, the Cheetah appears the better product. But I wonder how stable
it is, running as I expect it is on some Microsoft platform. In theory,
at least, the dedicated nature of the Garmin should yield a more
trustworthy platform.

My 430s have never crashed, for example (excluding one hardware issue).

- Andrew

[Jay Honeck]

> > Yep, me too. Lowrance -- the world leader in nautical GPS -- has been
> > "promising" weather for over two years -- and STILL nothing. It must
> > be a lot harder than we think it is...
>
> It is a priority thing with Lowrance. They were purchased by a company that
> is completely marine based. The new parent company had Lowrance pull
> resources from developing XM for aviation so those resources could fill in
> some percieved holes in the marine product line.

Okay, I'll buy that -- but isn't downloadable, "live" XM weather
something that boaters want, too?

It would seem like a great thing for the marine crowd?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>>> It's amazing that you're the only one to think of this.
>>>> Congratulations!
>>>
>>> Look around at the demographic of pilots nowadays. I'm 48, and I'm
>>> still considered the "Young Guy" at the airport -- which is the reason
>>> so few pilots apparently grasp how truly clunky the 496 is to use.
>>> Garmin is not dealing with a generation that has grown up with a mouse
>>> in our hands, and most pilots have nothing to compare the 496 against.
>>>
>>> My son does. And his observations were right on the money.
>>
>> Jay,
>>
>> Stick to running hotels. As a technologist, you're assessment is
>> embarrassing.
>>
>
> As someone who was presumably taught the English language at an early
> age.. "you're"... (??)
>
> Glass houses and all that.

Your analogy is wrong on two counts. Evidently your English skills outweigh
your technical and logical skills.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> > Stick to running hotels. As a technologist, you're assessment is
>> > embarrassing.
>>
>> Matt, what the hell is wrong with you lately.
>>
>> Did someone **** in your Wheaties? Something wrong with your lovelife?
>>
>> For the past few weeks you have been more obnoxious than usual.

Maybe the level of stupidity has grown all out of whack?

(And I'm not refering to Jay here; his error is one of context)

>
> Heck, I haven't noticed any difference...
>
> ;-)
>
> Seriously, I *know* that the 496 and PSP are not the same thing, and I
> *know* that Sony sells 80 gazillion game platforms for every one of
> Garmin's GPS units.
>
> My point in posting is simply to highlight how truly crappy these
> units are, and how expensive they are, comparatively speaking. For
> those of you who think otherwise, get thee to your kids room, and see
> what real "high tech" looks like.

Funny thing, the rest of the market makes stuff just as crappy.

If it were so easy.....

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
> have sold about five of them..."
>

They did, comparatively.

Have your son try Anywhere map.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

I only know the 430, but with that unit, slewing to a map item to get
the info on it would be the worst way to do it, since there is a
dedicated waypoint page showing info for a desired waypoint - and a
page showing the info on the destination waypoint. I'd be surprised if
the 496 doesn't have that.

As a German saying goes: There are many roads going to Rome - but only
one is the shortest.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jay Honeck]

> I only know the 430, but with that unit, slewing to a map item to get
> the info on it would be the worst way to do it, since there is a
> dedicated waypoint page showing info for a desired waypoint - and a
> page showing the info on the destination waypoint. I'd be surprised if
> the 496 doesn't have that.
>
> As a German saying goes: There are many roads going to Rome - but only
> one is the shortest.

Yep, I've been told that by other Garmin users. To me, that's just a
kludge work-around of a problem that shouldn't exist.

Being able to simply click on the airport to see ALL information is
the single coolest thing about the 496 (besides weather). Heck, my
Lowrance has the same feature (although you stupidly must press TWO
buttons simultaneously to bring up the info -- difficult in
turbulence), and there is none of this "slew, pause" crap.

A friend has suggested checking some of the map settings, to make sure
that it's not always loading the "road" detail (that the unit uses
when in driving mode). This could significantly slow the unit down,
so I'm hopeful that I will find this feature turned on, and can simply
turn it off and enjoy improved performance.

I'll report back if it does.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Kyle Boatright]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>> > Yep, me too. Lowrance -- the world leader in nautical GPS -- has been
>> > "promising" weather for over two years -- and STILL nothing. It must
>> > be a lot harder than we think it is...
>>
>> It is a priority thing with Lowrance. They were purchased by a company
>> that
>> is completely marine based. The new parent company had Lowrance pull
>> resources from developing XM for aviation so those resources could fill
>> in
>> some percieved holes in the marine product line.
>
> Okay, I'll buy that -- but isn't downloadable, "live" XM weather
> something that boaters want, too?
>
> It would seem like a great thing for the marine crowd?

Out of curiosity, I was looking at Lowrances marine product line yesterday.
Some of their units include XM weather as a feature. So, lowrance has the
institutional knowledge. The question is when will they come out with the
product.

For my sake, I hope they don't limit XM to their larger platforms. Those are
a bit big for my cockpit.

> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Kyle Boatright]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Jay,
>
>> "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
>> have sold about five of them..."
>>
>
> They did, comparatively.
>
> Have your son try Anywhere map.
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas,

Presumably you've used both the Garmin and Anywheremap products. What is
your opinion of their relative merits?

KB

[john smith]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> 4. In order to click on the desired airport, you must "slew" the
> cursor off the edge of the screen in order to find it. This means
> hold the arrow button down, slew to the edge of the screen -- wait
> three seconds while the screen disappears and reappears -- and
> continue.
>
> The REALLY bad thing is that the cursor doesn't stop moving when the
> screen disappears, so that in those three seconds you can easily WAY
> over-shoot your target airport. (I've even ended up in a different
> state during the time it's blank.)

It takes much less time and effort if you first zoom out, requiring only
a small amount of cursor movement to get it near the airport you want,
then zoom back in to the exact point you want.

[Jay Honeck]

> > "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
> > have sold about five of them..."
>
> They did, comparatively.

That's funny -- every kid my son knows owns an X-box. If only Garmin
were so unlucky...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Out of curiosity, I was looking at Lowrances marine product line yesterday.
> Some of their units include XM weather as a feature. So, lowrance has the
> institutional knowledge. The question is when will they come out with the
> product.

That's incredible. They've already GOT weather, and can't figure out
how to get it into an aviation box?

I can't wait to hear their excuses at OSH *this* year!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> It takes much less time and effort if you first zoom out, requiring only
> a small amount of cursor movement to get it near the airport you want,
> then zoom back in to the exact point you want.

This helps, to some degree, but does not eliminate the problem. Often
when you hit the arrow button (that moves the cursor) there will be an
annoying lag before anything happens. Then, when it reappears, your
cursor may (or may not) be anywhere near what you were aiming to hit.

There is also the problem with decluttering. When you zoom out,
Garmin (by necessity, due to the puny screen) declutters the screen.
This makes all the smaller airports (and most detail) disappear
entirely. It's hard to click on an airport if its not displayed.

Everything we're discussing is a compromise due to poor design. For
$3K, I don't deserve poor design -- but until Lowrance and AvMap get
their fingers out of their collective butts, we're stuck with it.

(And, BTW, NONE of my comments are a slam on XM weather. To have the
clouds, radar, METAR and TAF data overlaid on a moving map is worth
putting up with a lot of crap -- which is why we reluctantly purchased
the 496 at OSH last year.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Thomas Borchert]

Kyle,

> Presumably you've used both the Garmin and Anywheremap products. What is
> your opinion of their relative merits?
>

I have more experience with the Garmin. The Anywheremap is "nicer" in that
it shows more cool stuff. Thus, I thought Jay Jr. might like it better. But
I don't care for the stylus interface in a plane much - and I've had Windows
Mobile crash just too often.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> Being able to simply click on the airport to see ALL information is
> the single coolest thing about the 496
>

Well, if it's so cool, why are you complaining about it? <gd&r>

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> That's funny -- every kid my son knows owns an X-box.
>

No offense, but we've been through this before. As we have discussed
here at numerous occasions, there's a difference between "Jay's world"
and statistics.

The Xbox 360 has sold badly. Less have been sold than even MS expected.
Way less. The Xbox venture as a whole so far is a loss for MS - albeit
one they can afford. If it wasn't for Sony being so immensely dumb, the
Xbox would be close to non-existent. With current generation consoles,
the Wii is the success story.

Oh, and the Xbox 360s will have to have a factory defect repaired. All
of them.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Kyle Boatright]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Out of curiosity, I was looking at Lowrances marine product line
>> yesterday.
>> Some of their units include XM weather as a feature. So, lowrance has
>> the
>> institutional knowledge. The question is when will they come out with
>> the
>> product.
>
> That's incredible. They've already GOT weather, and can't figure out
> how to get it into an aviation box?

I think I spoke too soon. Another review of Lowrances product line doesn't
show any XM products. It was Garmin's marine line that had XM.

Sorry for the tease!

>
> I can't wait to hear their excuses at OSH *this* year!
>
> ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[john hawkins]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> It takes much less time and effort if you first zoom out, requiring only
>> a small amount of cursor movement to get it near the airport you want,
>> then zoom back in to the exact point you want.
[snip]

heres some snipets of an article from the NYTimes which your son might find
interesting

SOMETIMES there is a huge disconnect between the people who make a product
and the people who use it. The creator of a Web site may assume too much
knowledge on the part of users, leading to confusion. Software designers may
not anticipate user behavior that can unintentionally destroy an entire
database. Manufacturers can make equipment that inadvertently increases the
likelihood of repetitive stress injuries.

Enter the usability professional, whose work has recently developed into a
solid career track, driven mostly by advancements in technology.

The Usability Professionals' Association offers tutorials and holds an
annual meeting. The Society for Technical Communication also has a group on
usability and user experience.

General online job boards are a good resource for usability jobs. In
addition, the usability association lists job postings on its Web site, and
job placement firms like Bestica Inc. specialize in usability design jobs.

Harvinder Singh, president of Bestica, which is based in San Antonio, says
that there is a shortage of people to fill usability jobs.

"We're working with companies like Microsoft and Yahoo and having a lot of
trouble finding user-experienced people," he said.

More companies are dividing the various aspects of the job, he said. A
business might want a usability researcher to go out and talk with users and
examine what they're comfortable with. Then it might employ a usability
design expert to incorporate the researcher's findings into the way a
product works.

According to information compiled by the usability association in 2005,
annual pay in the field in the United States started at about $49,000 and
rose to about $120,000. The average salary was $86,500.

Usability position are receiving more visibility within companies, and
high-ranking positions like director of usability are being created, Mr.
Danas of Microsoft said. "From a career standpoint I think there's a lot of
opportunity, and that's getting broader every day," he said.

[NW_Pilot]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Jay,
>
>> That's funny -- every kid my son knows owns an X-box.
>>
>
> No offense, but we've been through this before. As we have discussed
> here at numerous occasions, there's a difference between "Jay's world"
> and statistics.
>
> The Xbox 360 has sold badly. Less have been sold than even MS expected.
> Way less. The Xbox venture as a whole so far is a loss for MS - albeit
> one they can afford. If it wasn't for Sony being so immensely dumb, the
> Xbox would be close to non-existent. With current generation consoles,
> the Wii is the success story.
>
> Oh, and the Xbox 360s will have to have a factory defect repaired. All
> of them.
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>

The 360 was compromized befor it was even aviable for retail sale. I know in
my kids X-Box it has 250gig HD and is packed with games. Why buy a 360 at
the price they want now wait till price is less. Bet better the the PS wich
hasent released a game in a while hahahaha....

http://www.xbox-scene.com

[NW_Pilot]

"NW_Pilot" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Jay,
>>
>>> That's funny -- every kid my son knows owns an X-box.
>>>
>>
>> No offense, but we've been through this before. As we have discussed
>> here at numerous occasions, there's a difference between "Jay's world"
>> and statistics.
>>
>> The Xbox 360 has sold badly. Less have been sold than even MS expected.
>> Way less. The Xbox venture as a whole so far is a loss for MS - albeit
>> one they can afford. If it wasn't for Sony being so immensely dumb, the
>> Xbox would be close to non-existent. With current generation consoles,
>> the Wii is the success story.
>>
>> Oh, and the Xbox 360s will have to have a factory defect repaired. All
>> of them.
>>
>> --
>> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>>
>
> The 360 was compromized befor it was even aviable for retail sale. I know
> in my kids X-Box it has 250gig HD and is packed with games. Why buy a 360
> at the price they want now wait till price is less. Bet better the the PS
> wich hasent released a game in a while hahahaha....
>
> http://www.xbox-scene.com
>
>

Dam broken spell checker hahahaha!!!!

[Jay Honeck]

> Sorry for the tease!

Whoa. That's how rumors start!

I remember when everyone was saying that "Lowrance is introducing XM
at OSH this year", back in '05. EVERYONE was at the Lowrance booth,
wanting to see the new product that didn't exist.

I actually felt sorry for the reps at the booth...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > Being able to simply click on the airport to see ALL information is
> > the single coolest thing about the 496
>
> Well, if it's so cool, why are you complaining about it? <gd&r>

If only it worked as well as my LG cell phone, I'd be happy. Now
THERE is a product with bullet-proof technology that actually works as
advertised.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> According to information compiled by the usability association in 2005,
> annual pay in the field in the United States started at about $49,000 and
> rose to about $120,000. The average salary was $86,500.

Sounds great for my son's future career -- but that's the kind of
corporate stupidity that drives me CRAZY. Imagine, paying some
schmuck $120K to be a "Useability" expert, instead of just making the
effort to get input from actual users.

Honestly, IMHO large corporations are so wasteful, it's a miracle any
of them survive.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> The Xbox 360 has sold badly. Less have been sold than even MS expected

That may be the case, but they've still sold millions of the damned
things, and they are EVERYWHERE. Walk into any gamer hangout or
computer store in America, and half the store will be X-Box console
games. The other half will be Playstation and Wii (which, although up
and coming, still hasn't displaced the Big Two), with a tiny little
corner devoted to PC games.

If only Garmin sold 3% as much as the "failed" X-Box, maybe they'd
install a decent processor in the 496.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I have more experience with the Garmin. The Anywheremap is "nicer" in that
> it shows more cool stuff. Thus, I thought Jay Jr. might like it better. But
> I don't care for the stylus interface in a plane much

AnyWhereMap is cool, and has some neat features, but there is no way
I'm using a stylus in the plane. Running it on a touch-screen solid
state PC would be great, but was too pricey when we were shopping last
year.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Noel]

In article om>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:

> > According to information compiled by the usability association in 2005,
> > annual pay in the field in the United States started at about $49,000 and
> > rose to about $120,000. The average salary was $86,500.
>
> Sounds great for my son's future career -- but that's the kind of
> corporate stupidity that drives me CRAZY. Imagine, paying some
> schmuck $120K to be a "Useability" expert, instead of just making the
> effort to get input from actual users.

Jay: If I understand the term correctly, the useability expert IS the means
for getting input from actual users. However, users generally don't have
any objective quantitative measures for assessing which features are more
useful or for comparing different capability implementations.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>> Being able to simply click on the airport to see ALL information is
>>> the single coolest thing about the 496
>> Well, if it's so cool, why are you complaining about it? <gd&r>
>
> If only it worked as well as my LG cell phone, I'd be happy. Now
> THERE is a product with bullet-proof technology that actually works as
> advertised.

I dunno. Of the 4 LG 3300 phones on my current contract, two have been
trouble with one dieing completely in less than 18 months. My former
Moto phone was bullet-proof (StarTac) as is my current Samsung 650
(nearly 3 years old now). I should upgrade the latter as I'm well
beyond the 2 year contract, but the thing works and I know how to use it.

No more LGs for me...

Matt

[James Robinson]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

>> The Xbox 360 has sold badly. Less have been sold than even MS expected
>
> That may be the case, but they've still sold millions of the damned
> things, and they are EVERYWHERE. Walk into any gamer hangout or
> computer store in America, and half the store will be X-Box console
> games. The other half will be Playstation and Wii (which, although up
> and coming, still hasn't displaced the Big Two), with a tiny little
> corner devoted to PC games.

Sales figures of the boxes themselves are somewhat different:

http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_6331086

"In the first five months of the year, Nintendo has walked away as the
winner, selling 1.73 million Wiis in the United States, according to market
researcher NPD Group. Microsoft has sold 1 million Xbox 360s and Sony has
sold only 665,000 PS3s."

[Dylan Smith]

On 2007-07-06, NW_Pilot > wrote:
> and knock them off for only a few hundred dollars? Hell I could crack/dump
> their their os in a few days and would give me an excuse to get my SMT
> rework / device programming equipment out of the attic.

If you want to make a better GPS, Sparkfun Electronics sells all the
parts with handy breakout boards for prototyping. An ARM7 based mcu
should have enough power and even in quantites of 1 is around $10 or so.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> The Xbox 360 has sold badly. Less have been sold than even MS expected
>
> That may be the case, but they've still sold millions of the damned
> things, and they are EVERYWHERE. Walk into any gamer hangout or
> computer store in America, and half the store will be X-Box console
> games. The other half will be Playstation and Wii (which, although up
> and coming, still hasn't displaced the Big Two), with a tiny little
> corner devoted to PC games.
>
> If only Garmin sold 3% as much as the "failed" X-Box, maybe they'd
> install a decent processor in the 496.

And if those gamers would learn to fly, instead of playing MSFS like our
dear MX, then Garmin COULD sell millions of units.

Sheesh!

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"James Robinson" > wrote in message
. ..
> Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>>> The Xbox 360 has sold badly. Less have been sold than even MS expected
>>
>> That may be the case, but they've still sold millions of the damned
>> things, and they are EVERYWHERE. Walk into any gamer hangout or
>> computer store in America, and half the store will be X-Box console
>> games. The other half will be Playstation and Wii (which, although up
>> and coming, still hasn't displaced the Big Two), with a tiny little
>> corner devoted to PC games.
>
> Sales figures of the boxes themselves are somewhat different:
>
> http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_6331086
>
> "In the first five months of the year, Nintendo has walked away as the
> winner, selling 1.73 million Wiis in the United States, according to
> market
> researcher NPD Group. Microsoft has sold 1 million Xbox 360s and Sony has
> sold only 665,000 PS3s."

And we wonder why the young (yuths) are not interested in flying?


--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Kyle Boatright wrote:
>
> I think I spoke too soon. Another review of Lowrances product line
> doesn't show any XM products. It was Garmin's marine line that had
> XM.
> Sorry for the tease!
>

I did the same thing but I know I was on the Lowrence site and I know I saw
a marine unit with XM weather. Looking back now I can't find it. That is
just strange.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 04:27:48 -0400, Bob Noel wrote:

> However, users generally don't
> have any objective quantitative measures for assessing which features are
> more useful or for comparing different capability implementations.

Also, remember that "users" in a different context are "witnesses".
Considering how reliable these are should provide some hint as to why some
expertise is required to evaluation the collective of "opinions".

- Andrew

[Montblack]

("Kyle Boatright" wrote)
> As someone who was presumably taught the English language at an early
> age.. "you're"... (??)
>
> Glass houses and all that.


Well now you ARE in Jay's wheelhouse (pilothouse). You know with that
English major of his and whatnot.


Paul-Mont ....and all that jazz

(wheelhouse: from Dictionary.com)

Danish: styrehus
Dutch: stuurhut

Estonian: kaptenisild

Finnish: ohjaushytti
French: timonerie

German: das Ruderhaus
Greek: t?µ?????a

Hungarian: kormányosfülke

Icelandic: stÿrishús
Indonesian: ruang kemudi
Italian: timoniera

Latvian: sturesmaja
Lithuanian: vairininko kabina

Polish: sterówka
Portuguese (Brazil): cabine de navegação
Portuguese (Portugal): casa do leme

Romanian: timonerie
Russian: ??????? ?????

Slovak: kormidelníkova kabína
Slovenian: kabina s krmilom
Spanish: timonera, caseta del timón, puente de mando
Swedish: styrhytt

Turkish: dümen mahalli

My spell checker is smoking....

[EridanMan]

> The closest comparable consumer products with equivalent engineering
> requirements that comes to my mind is the just-released iPhone and
> notebook/tablet computers.

Hell, forget Iphone, pick any mobile phone released in the last 5
years, they're all running 120-400 mhz Arm Chips, which any decent
programmer worth their salt should be able to make sing.

I'm a mobile software engineer... And I can assure you that what you
guys are seeing is scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of what
these boards are capable of- hell, we give our mainline game
programmers three days to do the menus of their games, and the stuff
they come up with wipes the floor with what I've seen from most
handheld avionics. To me it just smacks of pure lack of will, they
take the basic, designed-in-one-hour engineering interface and pass it
off as a consumer product because they know they can.

[EridanMan]

Ok, as a 25 year old "Senior" Mobile Framework engineer with a dozen
mobile games under my belt and an 200mhz ARM reference board I play
around with at work, not to mention 2 years experience with GPS and
Location services, I think I know something about this.

And Jay is right on the money... seriously.

Given capability of the hardware and the maturity of the embedded
platforms at this point, the current crop of avionics (handheld and
otherwise) isn't just substandard, its a downright embarrassment, and
it smacks of _ZERO_ effort on the part of the current producers.

I think you all underestimate the extent to which aviation has
completely fallen off the radar of the younger generation. There is
the sense that it is a dying market, and as a dying market, its not
worth investing in, so the fact that a trivial investment is all
that's needed to break into it doesn't matter. The young tech-dork
generation is all chasing after youTube and Google and social
networking and 'the next big thing'. That's how they'll (we'll) make
our cool hundred million and join the ranks of the Sillicon Valley
elite. A small side business in a 'dying' industry simply isn't what
they're watching.

BTW, the reason I have that embedded board is because of this very
topic... Although I was focusing more on PMA instrumentation
replacement, not handheld GPS's.

[EridanMan]

On Jul 7, 12:18 am, "NW_Pilot" >
wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
> > Now that my son is taking flight lessons, I'm letting him fly in
> > (Read: Mary is relinquishing) the front seat more often. This plants
> > him squarely in front of our panel-docked Garmin 496, the latest-and-
> > greatest portable GPS from Garmin.
>
> > We've flown behind this unit since OSH '06, and he has heard us
> > discussing its quirks and limitations, but he's never had any first-
> > hand experience programming it. Remember, the boy is 16 years old,
> > and has almost literally grown up with a Playstation/X-Box/PC game
> > controller in his hands. His thumbs are highly over-developed, from
> > 10 million hours of video-game playing, and he is turning into an
> > absolute whiz with computers.
>
> > In short, he is an expert on all things that use graphics.
>
> > After working the 496 for a few flights, with all of its bizarre
> > hiccups (I.E.: The screen completely disappears when you slew the
> > cursor across the screen) and horrible graphics (displayed on a
> > postage-stamp-sized screen), his priceless comment was:
>
> > "If Microsoft built the X-Box the way Garmin built the 496, they'd
> > have sold about five of them..."
>
> > And you know what? He's absolutely right. We pilots were so
> > desperate for in-cockpit weather that we willingly paid $3000 (!) for
> > a $250 dollar unit that performs worse than a video game.
>
> > BTW: If you've never played with an X-Box, or a Sony Playstation game
> > platform, this post won't make any sense to you -- which is precisely
> > what Garmin was counting on. Go out and borrow your kids (or grand-
> > kids) game unit for a couple of hours, and see what REAL graphics
> > capability looks like. (And if you want to see how hand-held
> > graphical displays *should* perform, borrow their PSP handheld
> > Playstation unit.)
>
> > I sure hope Garmin steps up to the plate, performance-wise, with their
> > (much anticipated) new product at OSH...
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> >www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
>
> Hummmm.... I think I said something like this in the 596 thread that a
> Korean knock off would be faster and better quality hahahahaha... Garmin is
> banking on a Name not quality. Some say they are the leader in GPS
> technology they may be but they will fail if they keep using poor quality
> parts and 5+ year old technology in their displays. I can hand solder SMT
> devices better then what they do on the inside of their devices.
>
> The CPU speed in my cell phone is faster then that of the G1000 no telling
> what they are using in the 496. So anyone have about $90K they want to toss
> to the Korea/HongKong to reverse engineer the 496 and then make it better
> and knock them off for only a few hundred dollars? Hell I could crack/dump
> their their os in a few days and would give me an excuse to get my SMT
> rework / device programming equipment out of the attic.

I'm in...

[Jay Honeck]

> I'm a mobile software engineer... And I can assure you that what you
> guys are seeing is scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of what
> these boards are capable of- hell, we give our mainline game
> programmers three days to do the menus of their games, and the stuff
> they come up with wipes the floor with what I've seen from most
> handheld avionics. To me it just smacks of pure lack of will, they
> take the basic, designed-in-one-hour engineering interface and pass it
> off as a consumer product because they know they can.

THANK YOU! I'm glad my son and I aren't the only ones who see this.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gig 601XL Builder]

EridanMan wrote:
>> The closest comparable consumer products with equivalent engineering
>> requirements that comes to my mind is the just-released iPhone and
>> notebook/tablet computers.
>
> Hell, forget Iphone, pick any mobile phone released in the last 5
> years, they're all running 120-400 mhz Arm Chips, which any decent
> programmer worth their salt should be able to make sing.
>
> I'm a mobile software engineer... And I can assure you that what you
> guys are seeing is scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of what
> these boards are capable of- hell, we give our mainline game
> programmers three days to do the menus of their games, and the stuff
> they come up with wipes the floor with what I've seen from most
> handheld avionics. To me it just smacks of pure lack of will, they
> take the basic, designed-in-one-hour engineering interface and pass it
> off as a consumer product because they know they can.

They are systems are under utilized for one reason, dependability.I have to
restart my Razor at least once a day and it will, at least twice a week,
just shut down on it own.

[Gilbert Smith]

EridanMan > wrote:

>Ok, as a 25 year old "Senior" Mobile Framework engineer with a dozen
>mobile games under my belt and an 200mhz ARM reference board I play
>around with at work, not to mention 2 years experience with GPS and
>Location services, I think I know something about this.
>
>And Jay is right on the money... seriously.
>
>Given capability of the hardware and the maturity of the embedded
>platforms at this point, the current crop of avionics (handheld and
>otherwise) isn't just substandard, its a downright embarrassment, and
>it smacks of _ZERO_ effort on the part of the current producers.
>
>I think you all underestimate the extent to which aviation has
>completely fallen off the radar of the younger generation. There is
>the sense that it is a dying market, and as a dying market, its not
>worth investing in, so the fact that a trivial investment is all
>that's needed to break into it doesn't matter. The young tech-dork
>generation is all chasing after youTube and Google and social
>networking and 'the next big thing'. That's how they'll (we'll) make
>our cool hundred million and join the ranks of the Sillicon Valley
>elite. A small side business in a 'dying' industry simply isn't what
>they're watching.
>
>BTW, the reason I have that embedded board is because of this very
>topic... Although I was focusing more on PMA instrumentation
>replacement, not handheld GPS's.
>
>

So can you load the 496 software onto your ARM board ?

[Blueskies]

"EridanMan" > wrote in message ups.com...
> Ok, as a 25 year old "Senior" Mobile Framework engineer with a dozen
> mobile games under my belt and an 200mhz ARM reference board I play
> around with at work, not to mention 2 years experience with GPS and
> Location services, I think I know something about this.
>
> And Jay is right on the money... seriously.
>
> Given capability of the hardware and the maturity of the embedded
> platforms at this point, the current crop of avionics (handheld and
> otherwise) isn't just substandard, its a downright embarrassment, and
> it smacks of _ZERO_ effort on the part of the current producers.
>
> I think you all underestimate the extent to which aviation has
> completely fallen off the radar of the younger generation. There is
> the sense that it is a dying market, and as a dying market, its not
> worth investing in, so the fact that a trivial investment is all
> that's needed to break into it doesn't matter. The young tech-dork
> generation is all chasing after youTube and Google and social
> networking and 'the next big thing'. That's how they'll (we'll) make
> our cool hundred million and join the ranks of the Sillicon Valley
> elite. A small side business in a 'dying' industry simply isn't what
> they're watching.
>
> BTW, the reason I have that embedded board is because of this very
> topic... Although I was focusing more on PMA instrumentation
> replacement, not handheld GPS's.
>
>
>

[Blueskies]

"EridanMan" > wrote in message ups.com...
> Ok, as a 25 year old "Senior" Mobile Framework engineer with a dozen...
>
> BTW, the reason I have that embedded board is because of this very
> topic... Although I was focusing more on PMA instrumentation
> replacement, not handheld GPS's.
>
>
>

Do you have any stock?

[EridanMan]

On Jul 11, 2:22 am, "Blueskies" > wrote:
> "EridanMan" > wrote in oglegroups.com...
> > Ok, as a 25 year old "Senior" Mobile Framework engineer with a dozen...
>
> > BTW, the reason I have that embedded board is because of this very
> > topic... Although I was focusing more on PMA instrumentation
> > replacement, not handheld GPS's.
>
> Do you have any stock?

LOL...

Nah, currently I'm just a tech dork learning Embedded system digital
signal processing in my spare time.

I've got ideas of where to go with it, but before I go convincing
anyone else, I need to convince myself it's practical.

[EridanMan]

> So can you load the 496 software onto your ARM board ?

There is nothing sacred about the 496's software. As I said, any
given month I hand A complex menu user interface to one of our mid-
level programmers and expect something cool back in three days to a
week (Far in excess of what you would need in a mobile device- Smooth
scrolling, live sprite elements, etc), all switchable so that we can
hit the full range of handsets without difficulty (and designed with
relative references to work on any screen size from 96x74 on up)

The 'hard' part is the GPS interface, and even that is growing more
and more trivial, with SiRF and others now offering integration
directly into an onboard embedded operating system with a runtime
library (rather than formerly having to process the analog signal to
digital and parse the data yourself).

Just go to your local electronics shop and see how trivially available
in-car GPS's are now, from every manufacturer... The technology is
_NO_ different (not even more reliable).

Hell, the 'truly' hard part for any device I would want to build would
be the 3d engine, and even those are coming available for some of the
wider-supported embedded platforms... If not, I'm good friends with
the gentleman who did the 3d engine for Commanche and several other
mid-90s products, so worse comes to worse I could do my own. (I'm
very interested in 'virtual-forward' views and perspective terrain).

The map data itself is fairly trivial... a bit of licensing expense,
that's all.

It actually strikes me more and more that, I will bet you dollars to
donuts that the only reason Lawrence and Avmap don't have XM weather
is an exclusive contract with Garmin that Garmin is paying good money
to maintain... (that's how things work in my industry, its not about
the technology, its about the Licenses... its not what do you make,
its who do you have). Why take the risk on designing a new project
when for a stipend per month you can have the whole market to
yourself?

I have _NO_ evidence of this of course... But its standard fare
business practice in my industry, and frankly I would be surprised if
that _wasn't_ the case.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

EridanMan wrote:
>
> It actually strikes me more and more that, I will bet you dollars to
> donuts that the only reason Lawrence and Avmap don't have XM weather
> is an exclusive contract with Garmin that Garmin is paying good money
> to maintain... (that's how things work in my industry, its not about
> the technology, its about the Licenses... its not what do you make,
> its who do you have). Why take the risk on designing a new project
> when for a stipend per month you can have the whole market to
> yourself?
>


How many dollars you got because I can come up with a lot of donuts?

http://www.xmradio.com/weather/hardware_solutions_av.xmc

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> EridanMan wrote:
>>
>> It actually strikes me more and more that, I will bet you dollars to
>> donuts that the only reason Lawrence and Avmap don't have XM weather
>> is an exclusive contract with Garmin that Garmin is paying good money
>> to maintain... (that's how things work in my industry, its not about
>> the technology, its about the Licenses... its not what do you make,
>> its who do you have). Why take the risk on designing a new project
>> when for a stipend per month you can have the whole market to
>> yourself?

[Where in hell do people come up with this stuff?]
>>
>
>
> How many dollars you got because I can come up with a lot of donuts?
>
> http://www.xmradio.com/weather/hardware_solutions_av.xmc
Snicker!!

(Oh, is that a copyright infringement on the Mars Company?)

--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become
dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest
authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."
-- Omar Ahmad, Chairman Emeritus, Council on American-Islamic Relations
(CAIR).

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
> ...
>> EridanMan wrote:
>>>
>>> It actually strikes me more and more that, I will bet you dollars to
>>> donuts that the only reason Lawrence and Avmap don't have XM weather
>>> is an exclusive contract with Garmin that Garmin is paying good
>>> money to maintain... (that's how things work in my industry, its
>>> not about the technology, its about the Licenses... its not what do
>>> you make, its who do you have). Why take the risk on designing a
>>> new project when for a stipend per month you can have the whole
>>> market to yourself?
>
> [Where in hell do people come up with this stuff?]
>>>
>>
>>
>> How many dollars you got because I can come up with a lot of donuts?
>>
>> http://www.xmradio.com/weather/hardware_solutions_av.xmc
> Snicker!!
>


Yes it is Matt. I'm sure you will be hearing from their lawyers soon if they
can finish up the licensing deal for the peanuts.

[Matt Barrow[_4_]]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in message
>> ...
>>> EridanMan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It actually strikes me more and more that, I will bet you dollars to
>>>> donuts that the only reason Lawrence and Avmap don't have XM weather
>>>> is an exclusive contract with Garmin that Garmin is paying good
>>>> money to maintain... (that's how things work in my industry, its
>>>> not about the technology, its about the Licenses... its not what do
>>>> you make, its who do you have). Why take the risk on designing a
>>>> new project when for a stipend per month you can have the whole
>>>> market to yourself?
>>
>> [Where in hell do people come up with this stuff?]
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How many dollars you got because I can come up with a lot of donuts?
>>>
>>> http://www.xmradio.com/weather/hardware_solutions_av.xmc
>> Snicker!!
>>
>
Snipped too much, Gig!

[(Oh, is that a copyright infringement on the Mars Company?)]
>
> Yes it is Matt. I'm sure you will be hearing from their lawyers soon if
> they can finish up the licensing deal for the peanuts.

[Blueskies]

"EridanMan" > wrote in message ups.com...
> On Jul 11, 2:22 am, "Blueskies" > wrote:
>> "EridanMan" > wrote in oglegroups.com...
>> > Ok, as a 25 year old "Senior" Mobile Framework engineer with a dozen...
>>
>> > BTW, the reason I have that embedded board is because of this very
>> > topic... Although I was focusing more on PMA instrumentation
>> > replacement, not handheld GPS's.
>>
>> Do you have any stock?
>
> LOL...
>
> Nah, currently I'm just a tech dork learning Embedded system digital
> signal processing in my spare time.
>
> I've got ideas of where to go with it, but before I go convincing
> anyone else, I need to convince myself it's practical.
>
>

http://www.grtavionics.com/efis_horizond_series_1.htm

[NW_Pilot]

"EridanMan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>> So can you load the 496 software onto your ARM board ?
>
> There is nothing sacred about the 496's software. As I said, any
> given month I hand A complex menu user interface to one of our mid-
> level programmers and expect something cool back in three days to a
> week (Far in excess of what you would need in a mobile device- Smooth
> scrolling, live sprite elements, etc), all switchable so that we can
> hit the full range of handsets without difficulty (and designed with
> relative references to work on any screen size from 96x74 on up)
>
> The 'hard' part is the GPS interface, and even that is growing more
> and more trivial, with SiRF and others now offering integration
> directly into an onboard embedded operating system with a runtime
> library (rather than formerly having to process the analog signal to
> digital and parse the data yourself).
>
> Just go to your local electronics shop and see how trivially available
> in-car GPS's are now, from every manufacturer... The technology is
> _NO_ different (not even more reliable).
>
> Hell, the 'truly' hard part for any device I would want to build would
> be the 3d engine, and even those are coming available for some of the
> wider-supported embedded platforms... If not, I'm good friends with
> the gentleman who did the 3d engine for Commanche and several other
> mid-90s products, so worse comes to worse I could do my own. (I'm
> very interested in 'virtual-forward' views and perspective terrain).
>
> The map data itself is fairly trivial... a bit of licensing expense,
> that's all.
>
> It actually strikes me more and more that, I will bet you dollars to
> donuts that the only reason Lawrence and Avmap don't have XM weather
> is an exclusive contract with Garmin that Garmin is paying good money
> to maintain... (that's how things work in my industry, its not about
> the technology, its about the Licenses... its not what do you make,
> its who do you have). Why take the risk on designing a new project
> when for a stipend per month you can have the whole market to
> yourself?
>
> I have _NO_ evidence of this of course... But its standard fare
> business practice in my industry, and frankly I would be surprised if
> that _wasn't_ the case.
>

Wish I had the cash to play with a 496 and clone it's TSOP if it has one. 3m
the 496 hahahaha!!! 1 Weather sub for all.

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> 3. You want to check the runways at your destination airport, which is
> NOT displayed. (Remember, you're zoomed in so that you can see stuff.)
> The 496 has the runways stored in its database -- all you have to do
> is put your cursor on the desired airport and hit "enter" to see them
> all.
>
> 4. In order to click on the desired airport, you must "slew" the
> cursor off the edge of the screen in order to find it. This means
> hold the arrow button down, slew to the edge of the screen -- wait
> three seconds while the screen disappears and reappears -- and
> continue.
>
> The REALLY bad thing is that the cursor doesn't stop moving when the
> screen disappears, so that in those three seconds you can easily WAY
> over-shoot your target airport. (I've even ended up in a different
> state during the time it's blank.)
>
> 5. Repeat ad nauseum.
>
> This process must be performed in order to see ANY of the good stuff,
> including accessing the AOPA restaurant/hotel guide, radio
> frequencies, field elevation, airport diagrams, METAR and TAF weather
> -- you name it, you've got to put your cursor on the airport and push
> "enter" to activate it -- which means slewing.




RTFM. Press and hold the Direct To button. There's your menu.

[Jay Honeck]

> RTFM. Press and hold the Direct To button. There's your menu.

That works for your destination only.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>RTFM. Press and hold the Direct To button. There's your menu.
>
>
> That works for your destination only.




That's what you asked for under #3.